I want a piece of the action that I get for getting people on first page.

30 replies
I want a piece of the action for getting people on first page.

I have been doing it through a flat fee CPA type thing, but most of my customers have long term relations with the customers I "get" for them.

This is just a brainstorm type thread.

I have posting on this link about some of this Offline stuff on this WF link:

http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...you-start.html

So, here I want to ask if you have any ideas about how to get some of this action:
I get a guy to sign up with a lawyer for his car accident injury. Lawyer does his stuff and gets the guy a settlement plus medical etc. Lawyer usually gets 1/3 of the settlement plus expenses.

Any ideas about how to get some of that lawyer's settlement?

Or how about a dentist for whom I get a new customer and then later the dentist gets his whole family? Lots of money downstream for that one.

Back to the attorney thing ... make it a disabling workplace injury, that has a future stream of payments to the injured person (workers compensation). The attorney gets 1/3 of those future payments. How do you think I could get some of the attorney's payments?

Nothing comes from the injured, just from what the attorney or dentist or accountant, etc. will get.

Hey, look if you open up a gold mine in the side of a mountain, do you stop with the first chunk of gold you find? No, you dig deeper dont you?

TB
#action #page #people #piece
  • Profile picture of the author ELeadStudio
    Nice one....

    Listen, it's hard not to get too greedy but you know (no affense ya?!).. I'm working with the same model and the only way to get a piece of the action is by affiliate program, somehow...

    You can't track the activities behind the scene, except the trust factor...
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    • Profile picture of the author teaball
      Originally Posted by ELeadStudio View Post

      Nice one....

      Listen, it's hard not to get too greedy but you know (no affense ya?!).. I'm working with the same model and the only way to get a piece of the action is by affiliate program, somehow...

      You can't track the activities behind the scene, except the trust factor...

      Greed? Greed! Me?? Please!!! LOL

      I'm just trying to help the poor lawyers.

      Try this... when you know you are in a new field, so to speak, it's undeveloped. therefore it has no S.O.P., no rules, no historical standards, nobody can say this... "Well, we have never done it that way .... we have always done it this way." right?

      So we are making up the rules and standards as we go along, right?


      It ain't greed, it's rule making! LOL

      If you don't watch out I'll be setting up a "local search professional" (LSP certified) certification program.

      Sum of yuse young folk have to esspand yo tinkin'.

      TB
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  • Profile picture of the author jsherloc
    I like your thinking, and your recent contributions to the forum teaball! Keep'em coming!

    My only concern would be the tracking complexities/legalities involved with stuff like this. Relying on humans and not machines for tracking seems to always end up in a headache for me. In pursuing the lead generation model I have also come across A LOT of legal stuff that I had NO IDEA existed.

    I live in California, and take health care pros or real estate agents for example. It is illegal to take "referral commission" for these segments, so charging a monthly or "marketing fee" is really the only way to go about it.

    Every state is different, but I was surprised to see a lot of barriers in a lot of "high paying" fields that I was not expecting. Still, plenty of $$$ to be made by everyone by marketing these industries, I just encourage folks to do the legal research.

    - Jim
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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Just FYI- most professionals cannot revenue share with non-licensed individuals. It's very illegal.

      I.e. a lawyer cannot give you a cut of his contingency fee, a dentist can't give you a percentage of his revenue, etc.

      All of these can get you fitted for a pretty blue outfit for a while.

      I played with the idea for a very long time, couldn't figure out a way to make it work.

      Marcos
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Do you have to be a licensed plumber to own or be a principle in a plumbing company or a law firm? I highly doubt it and I think what would be the only way the OP could get his greedy hands on more money.

        Originally Posted by MRomeo09 View Post

        Just FYI- most professionals cannot revenue share with non-licensed individuals. It's very illegal.

        I.e. a lawyer cannot give you a cut of his contingency fee, a dentist can't give you a percentage of his revenue, etc.

        All of these can get you fitted for a pretty blue outfit for a while.

        I played with the idea for a very long time, couldn't figure out a way to make it work.

        Marcos
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  • Profile picture of the author Pete Egeler
    Isn't it a shame when the green-eye mistress called Greed raises her ugly head?

    When I pay a mechanic to fix my truck so I can haul my product to market, there's no way in hell he's entitled to cut of my income.

    You offered a service. You were/are being paid for it. If you want constant payment from a client, set up a constant service that warrants continued payment.

    Pete
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    • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
      Originally Posted by Pete Egeler View Post

      Isn't it a shame when the green-eye mistress called Greed raises her ugly head?

      When I pay a mechanic to fix my truck so I can haul my product to market, there's no way in hell he's entitled to cut of my income.

      You offered a service. You were/are being paid for it. If you want constant payment from a client, set up a constant service that warrants continued payment.

      Pete
      Well now Pete, I'll have to disagree with you there. I own a half dozen offline businesses myself. And I'm telling you the money is in the client acquisition and retention, the rest of it is near to worthless. And I bet the same holds true in the so-called professions.

      Let me give you an example, I own a thriving massage practice. I built the sites, I built the JV connections, I provide the space, the sheets, etc, etc. I get 65%, they get 35%. I have no massage license, don't need one. I can massage my wife for about 5 minutes if she has a crick, but other than that I'm highly unqualified to provide a massage. Yet I get the lions share of the moolah.

      I own 3 other businesses that are pretty much the same sort of thing, we monetize the leads. And I'm telling you, that's where the money is. I can find a dozen massage therapists to massage someone, or landscapers to cut a lawn, or personal trainers to work someone out. The money is in the lead generation.

      I'd be willing to bet the same is true in the "professions". If I have a dental lead, I bet I can find a dozen dentists who will drill into their jaw. Yet, I can't get a portion.

      So, I'm kind of with tea on this one, I think I do deserve a portion of the revenues. Most of my more recent deals involve equity or revenue sharing. I have no shame in asking for it either.

      Marcos
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    • Profile picture of the author teaball
      Originally Posted by Pete Egeler View Post

      Isn't it a shame when the green-eye mistress called Greed raises her ugly head?

      When I pay a mechanic to fix my truck so I can haul my product to market, there's no way in hell he's entitled to cut of my income.

      You offered a service. You were/are being paid for it. If you want constant payment from a client, set up a constant service that warrants continued payment.

      Pete
      It isn't greed with me. I really don't care that much about the money. I just want to be paid for the real value my work product. That's where you have to start from or else you'll wish you had.

      I'm sure you've heard of the term "pay for perfomance", right? That's what I was trying to figure out. That's what a lawyer's take is essentially based on. Performance. contingency fees are just that... if you win, you make money, if you don't you have to eat alot of expense.... paralegals, filing fees, recording, to say nothing of fixed overhead.

      I did wonder about whether lawyers can share the revenue from a case. I thought of their use of investigators and other legal help.

      But, the only answer is to be inside the law firm, then the agreement would be legal.

      The weird thing is lawyers can do what others can't ... talk about greed, Peter!

      Athletes, actors, authors... all have contingency fee arrangements with agents and publishers.

      The thing is that a contingency fee structure actually advantages someone like a lawyer, because he/she would gladly pay for the exclusivity of that person's work product.

      So, it's not a greed thing, it's just another way to get paid. I'm sure you like getting paid, don't you?

      Like i said, it's a new business. No rules, no SOP's etc.

      Just like Marco says, dentists take a huge chunk out of what they charge for many dental hygenists charges, soft drink companies pay for locations in stores, and so many other professionals too... accountants, physicians get kick backs from referrals.

      I think you just mistook brainstorming for wanting to get paid better, more efficiently.

      A mechanic might be a bit different, in that his work is to fix, say, a water pump, but if the battery goes dead, he's not responsible, nor can you go get your money back for the water pump.

      And, what I do for my customers is indeed a continuous service month in and month out.

      You see, pay for performance disadvantages someone like me, unless the lawyer is pretty good. If he's lousy, I get lousy pay, even though I'm sending new clients in the door, right? That's why I wanted to look at getting both types of pay.... a smaller flat fee with a contigency share.

      I'll give you one thing though, Peter, nobody has ever thought of me as greedy when compared to any lawyer.

      All the best, Peter.

      TB
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  • Profile picture of the author winston
    I use to own a car rental company and would locate at car dealerships and hotels giving them 10% of my revenue or $800 month whichever was greater. They provided the area for a rental counter and space for parking cars and the dealerships provided an area for washing cars. I was providing a service for their customers that brought them more customers and those greedy owners wanted a cut of my revenue.
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    • Profile picture of the author Pete Egeler
      While I understand what you folks are saying, the OP said:

      Any ideas about how to get some of that lawyer's settlement?

      Or how about a dentist for whom I get a new customer and then later the dentist gets his whole family? Lots of money downstream for that one.


      If you offer a continuing service, then set it up so you receive a continuing income. And, Marcos, the "massage" example is one of owning a business, and hiring "contract labor". Just like someone starting a chain of salons, and hiring stylists, etc. to perform the actual work. Big difference from saying "I deserve to be able to stick my hand in your pocket if you make more money later."

      Think your client will benefit greatly from your efforts? CHARGE ACCORDINGLY.

      I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're not taking these type of things into account ahead of time, why should you feel you have a right to go back later and say, "Hey, you made more money than I thought you would. Pay up."

      That's the way your post came across to me, anyway. Go to a hock shop and tell the owner that paid you $20 for your watch that he owes you more money 'cause he sold it for more than he paid you for it.

      Pete

      First off, I hope no one is taking this personal. It's not meant to be. But, it all boils down to this: Stinkin' Thinkin'. "ST" is caused by NOT asking the right questions, thereby putting yourself in the position of thinking you've got a right to go back for more later. A very real, and telling question you should ALWAYS ask a prospective client like a dentist, lawyer, etc. is: "What's the lifetime value of a new client?" THEN, you base your fees around this answer. If a dentist tells you "$5,000" and you charge $100, that's your bad. See where I'm coming from?
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      • Profile picture of the author teaball
        Originally Posted by Pete Egeler View Post

        While I understand what you folks are saying, the OP said:

        Any ideas about how to get some of that lawyer's settlement?

        Or how about a dentist for whom I get a new customer and then later the dentist gets his whole family? Lots of money downstream for that one.

        If you offer a continuing service, then set it up so you receive a continuing income. And, Marcos, the "massage" example is one of owning a business, and hiring "contract labor". Just like someone starting a chain of salons, and hiring stylists, etc. to perform the actual work. Big difference from saying "I deserve to be able to stick my hand in your pocket if you make more money later."

        Think your client will benefit greatly from your efforts? CHARGE ACCORDINGLY.

        I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're not taking these type of things into account ahead of time, why should you feel you have a right to go back later and say, "Hey, you made more money than I thought you would. Pay up."

        That's the way your post came across to me, anyway. Go to a hock shop and tell the owner that paid you $20 for your watch that he owes you more money 'cause he sold it for more than he paid you for it.

        Pete

        I can understand your inability to discern my intent and meaning.

        Here let me quote this essential part of my post.
        "I have been doing it through a flat fee CPA type thing, but most of my customers have long term relations with the customers I "get" for them.

        This is just a brainstorm type thread.

        Any ideas about how to get some of that lawyer's settlement?"

        Do you see any reference to going backward and asking for more money? No! That is your presumption and I thought I explained that.

        My posts are usually not brief because I value words and how they are used, and how they may be read and understood... and in your case, misconstrued.

        Or, maybe you have not ever been in a brainstorming session, where anything and any idea is acceptable for discussion, however brief it might be discussed, then rejected.

        Others posted with excellent comments about how it is against the law for revenue sharing with attorneys. That shot that down.

        If I suggest or imagine something you object to in the future, don't be too sure you understand what I'm talking about. I suggest asking me a question instead of laying some condescension on what you think it is.

        I politely told you that you were wrong, yet you persisted. So, if the above is not good enough for whatever standards you are applying to my brainstorming, then I suggest you might not get such a nice and courteous response next time.

        for example, I would not comment on any of your advice i see in some of your posts, at this time. But I might do so in the future.

        I'm not here to make waves. I intend to contribute if I can. It may not be worth a hoot. But I'll still try to help others. Is that greedy?

        You figure it out in your own mind. The worst you'll ever get from me is being ignored.

        God bless you Peter.

        TB
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingJenius
    I understand what your trying to do. Maximize revenues. I don't believe your idea of a revenue share wouldn't fly with just about anyone I know though. It's like saying ... open your bank account.

    If you were in very similar or complimentary industries like an accountant/lawyer or HVAC/Plumber relationship it might be doable but it's not like you're in a business partnership or a member of the same company.

    I'd offer an idea of sitting down and really thinking about your products, services and pricing structure:

    Either charge one time transactions
    Charge a recurring fee for service
    Have a model with a combination of both

    Look at where your value is to the client and what will help you sleep at night. The more recurring fee and passive income you can generate, the less these issues will be present.

    From there, you should be golden.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bronwyn and Keith
      Hey Teaball

      Basically you are talking about either profit share or pay per lead or both.

      Here's what we would do.

      Go to the lawyer and let him/her know you will GIVE him/her 2 months worth of leads for FREE in exchange for a "Bulletproof" agreement that you can use on "other" people's businesses.

      Let him know that it has to be absolutely ROCK solid in your Country, State, County etc.

      Then use it to do business with others.

      Once the Lawyers 2 FREE months are up whatever you do Don't call (except to tell them that the 2 months is up) - when business starts to dry up he/she will probably call you and then you can put the contract in front of him/her.

      If he/she doesn't want to sign it then you know it's good. :rolleyes:

      Make sure you document the whole process with the Lawyer initially so that no "doubt" can be construed.

      Hope that helps.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        LOL! That is great! However if the Lawyer won't sign the contract then its probably an unfair contract and could be contested in court, at least in America.

        Contracts have to be viewed equitable for both parties to be valid legally in many cases.

        But, I still like the idea! haha

        Originally Posted by bronke13 View Post

        Hey Teaball

        Basically you are talking about either profit share or pay per lead or both.

        Here's what we would do.

        Go to the lawyer and let him/her know you will GIVE him/her 2 months worth of leads for FREE in exchange for a "Bulletproof" agreement that you can use on "other" people's businesses.

        Let him know that it has to be absolutely ROCK solid in your Country, State, County etc.

        Then use it to do business with others.

        Once the Lawyers 2 FREE months are up whatever you do Don't call (except to tell them that the 2 months is up) - when business starts to dry up he/she will probably call you and then you can put the contract in front of him/her.

        If he/she doesn't want to sign it then you know it's good. :rolleyes:

        Make sure you document the whole process with the Lawyer initially so that no "doubt" can be construed.

        Hope that helps.

        Regards

        Bronwyn and Keith
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        • Profile picture of the author Bronwyn and Keith
          Hey Rus

          Yeah understand the equity bit - it's the same here.

          What we were getting at was if the Lawyer wouldn't sign the agreement that he/she wrote you know you have a pretty strong/binding one.

          It would be worth it though throwing the agreement that he/she wrote back onto the table just to see them "squirm"....LOL

          Regards

          Bronwyn and Keith
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          LOL! That is great! However if the Lawyer won't sign the contract then its probably an unfair contract and could be contested in court, at least in America.

          Contracts have to be viewed equitable for both parties to be valid legally in many cases.

          But, I still like the idea! haha
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          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            Watch the sweat form on his brow while you smile at him with the agreement laying in front of him.

            HHAHA EPIC!

            Originally Posted by bronke13 View Post

            Hey Rus

            Yeah understand the equity bit - it's the same here.

            What we were getting at was if the Lawyer wouldn't sign the agreement that he/she wrote you know you have a pretty strong/binding one.

            It would be worth it though throwing the agreement that he/she wrote back onto the table just to see them "squirm"....LOL

            Regards

            Bronwyn and Keith
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        A basic problem with the question - you don't have a country listed and what you proposed (or at least thinking about) depends in large part on the laws applied to professionals in your country...or, in the U.S., also in the State.

        Real estate agents/brokers here can't legally give you part of their commissions (in many states) if you are unlicensed in the field. Attorneys are often the same but can pay leads fees or perhaps finders fees. Medical practitioners include dentists and are also regulated by federal and state on how they can pay outside people.

        The relationship of these professionals is a client relationship with certain privacy rules and include laws about how money must be handled and who can earn it. That's in the US - so what you need to know are license laws for professionals where you live.

        I doubt those same restrictions would apply to massage parlors or some other businesses where your idea might work and where the relationship with customers of the business is not a contractual relationship.

        Simple answer is to find out if it's legal where you are - and approach some business people to see if they are interested in doing it.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author teaball
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          A basic problem with the question - you don't have a country listed and what you proposed (or at least thinking about) depends in large part on the laws applied to professionals in your country...or, in the U.S., also in the State.

          Real estate agents/brokers here can't legally give you part of their commissions (in many states) if you are unlicensed in the field. Attorneys are often the same but can pay leads fees or perhaps finders fees. Medical practitioners include dentists and are also regulated by federal and state on how they can pay outside people.

          The relationship of these professionals is a client relationship with certain privacy rules and include laws about how money must be handled and who can earn it. That's in the US - so what you need to know are license laws for professionals where you live.

          I doubt those same restrictions would apply to massage parlors or some other businesses where your idea might work and where the relationship with customers of the business is not a contractual relationship.

          Simple answer is to find out if it's legal where you are - and approach some business people to see if they are interested in doing it.

          kay

          I'm referring mainly to US. And, I agree with what you wrote. They are barriers to entry, but barriers are worth looking at, as you say.

          Without some investigation, nobody finds nuggets.

          And, I grant that this is not a low hanging fruit type of issue, but it is interesting because you have to use ingenuity to probe the subject.

          Thanks for your comment.

          TB
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    • Profile picture of the author teaball
      Originally Posted by MarketingJenius View Post

      I understand what your trying to do. Maximize revenues. I don't believe your idea of a revenue share wouldn't fly with just about anyone I know though. It's like saying ... open your bank account.

      If you were in very similar or complimentary industries like an accountant/lawyer or HVAC/Plumber relationship it might be doable but it's not like you're in a business partnership or a member of the same company.

      I'd offer an idea of sitting down and really thinking about your products, services and pricing structure:

      Either charge one time transactions
      Charge a recurring fee for service
      Have a model with a combination of both

      Look at where your value is to the client and what will help you sleep at night. The more recurring fee and passive income you can generate, the less these issues will be present.

      From there, you should be golden.
      MJ,
      Actually, it's not a revenue maximizing strategy, at all. But thinking about it is a valid process. That is what is likely to become part of the IM biz.

      From various examples I've listed in posts here, the fact is PayForPerformance is everywhere and it is the least stable of income streams.

      People who use this on vendors, such local search IM'ers will control the game unless you understand it.

      Income maximizing is a whole other subject that has to be looked at in the long term (years) and then work backwards to how you set it up to generate that stable income stream with minimal expense and in many cases, minimal effort.

      As consumers become evermore "search savvy", the schemes to get them to spend will become a monstrous process ... even more than it is today. but, the consumer will do many more searches in the future. They will also see the free stuff vanishing as soon as someone figures out an effective and robust micro-payments system that is fair to the vendor (like much lower fees). That too is not far away.

      You wrote:
      "Look at where your value is to the client and what will help you sleep at night. The more recurring fee and passive income you can generate, the less these issues will be present."

      I think you have the practical solution for today's state of IM. I'm just thinking about how to be nimble in what's coming down the road at IM'ers and in particular, local search opportunists.

      Thanks for your comment. Good stuff.

      TB
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    In all honesty I don't think you deserve more then a finders fee for getting the client. How much the professional is able to earn on that client has a lot to do with their skills, knowledge, credentials, and credibility in their industry after you've done your job.

    What they are able to earn after that, your not entitled to in any way. As Kay mentioned, its one of the reasons why some industries are regulated these matters.
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  • Profile picture of the author joshril
    Originally Posted by teaball View Post

    I want a piece of the action for getting people on first page.

    I have been doing it through a flat fee CPA type thing, but most of my customers have long term relations with the customers I "get" for them.

    This is just a brainstorm type thread.

    I have posting on this link about some of this Offline stuff on this WF link:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...you-start.html

    So, here I want to ask if you have any ideas about how to get some of this action:
    I get a guy to sign up with a lawyer for his car accident injury. Lawyer does his stuff and gets the guy a settlement plus medical etc. Lawyer usually gets 1/3 of the settlement plus expenses.

    Any ideas about how to get some of that lawyer's settlement?

    Or how about a dentist for whom I get a new customer and then later the dentist gets his whole family? Lots of money downstream for that one.

    Back to the attorney thing ... make it a disabling workplace injury, that has a future stream of payments to the injured person (workers compensation). The attorney gets 1/3 of those future payments. How do you think I could get some of the attorney's payments?

    Nothing comes from the injured, just from what the attorney or dentist or accountant, etc. will get.

    Hey, look if you open up a gold mine in the side of a mountain, do you stop with the first chunk of gold you find? No, you dig deeper dont you?

    TB
    I recently posted about setting up "pay for performance" offline types of deals in my blog. There's a link to it in my signature link... I'll be posting more updates in the coming days/weeks.

    Someone above mentioned that you can't track these things and you have to rely on trust. To an extent, that's true, but many things in business boil down to trust. People don't pay people every day... you can never guard against that 100%.

    You simply put an agreement in place and go from there. If someone doesn't pay you on a revenue split type of deal, then you quit working with them. Of course, there are even ways to set these up with some businesses where you can track results, audit what they did if necessary, etc.

    I personally believe that most people are honest and I have an abundance mindset in my life and business.
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    • Profile picture of the author teaball
      Originally Posted by joshril View Post

      I recently posted about setting up "pay for performance" offline types of deals in my blog. There's a link to it in my signature link... I'll be posting more updates in the coming days/weeks.

      Someone above mentioned that you can't track these things and you have to rely on trust. To an extent, that's true, but many things in business boil down to trust. People don't pay people every day... you can never guard against that 100%.

      You simply put an agreement in place and go from there. If someone doesn't pay you on a revenue split type of deal, then you quit working with them. Of course, there are even ways to set these up with some businesses where you can track results, audit what they did if necessary, etc.

      I personally believe that most people are honest and I have an abundance mindset in my life and business.
      Tracking is perhaps easier than one might think, but trust is an essential part of the equation, for sure. Affiliate marketers track because they want their piece of the action for any continuity program they participate in. That is another system of pay-for-performance that advantages the affiliate over the vendor for future cash flows, and are only "worked" by the affiliate once. But the affiliate gets their share of the continuity revenues.

      Remember, as the local search pro, you have first contact with that prospect... IF you are doing it correctly. That contact is important and it has to be a positive experience for that prospect.

      Most people looking for a lawyer, in this case, are totally lost and have no experience with what they see as the first time they need a lawyer in their life.

      It's a jump into the unknown for them, at an already difficult time in their life. Establishing that initial relationship can be powerful to the lead genrator from the beginning. And, if a lead generator can find the suspects and turn them into qualified prospects .... well, you can just imagine that value to the lawyer/law firm.

      BTW, I also believe most people are honest. But, for me, anything between friends family or anyone else that involves more than $10 is a business transaction. And, I treat it that way. Money issues without a written agreement causes losses of family and friends nearly 100% of the time.

      TB
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  • Profile picture of the author k60mall
    Poor lawyers? I have never seen a poor lawyer and the reason is they are smart.

    They know by paying $50 per click on adwords they will get paid ten fold the amount it cost them to get the new client so why would they pay you an ongoing commission?

    They see you as a lead generator not a partner, just like adwords or the good old Yellow pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pete Egeler
    Kay King said everything I've been trying to say all along:

    "Real estate agents/brokers here can't legally give you part of their commissions (in many states) if you are unlicensed in the field. Attorneys are often the same but can pay leads fees or perhaps finders fees. Medical practitioners include dentists and are also regulated by federal and state on how they can pay outside people.'

    So, like I said, ASK the questions, then price accordingly. If client tells you he can expect $XXX over the life time of a client, take that into consideration when you're pricing your package.

    Pete
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  • Profile picture of the author teaball
    Contrary to popular opinion, there are many types or derivatives of "pay for performance" arrangements in industries and sectors of the US economy, outside of the contingency fee. Malls, franchises like McDonald's, and inside franchises like a Coke and Coke products exclusive.

    Consider mall stores, or shopping centers. In general, the stores pay "percentage rent" to the mall/center owner. They pay an agreed upon (sometimes negotiable) percentage of their annual/monthly gross revenues. Yes, you have to open up your books to them ... usually just showing the local sales tax filing each month.

    R.E. developers and buiders usually have an in-house (employee) licensed realtor to show and sell their model houses.

    The "lead-gen" model seems possible if you are inside a law firm, with some minimum payment to make it legal for the lawyer.

    I'm using the lawyer idea because it's difficult to figure, and, may hold the seed to how to do this for other high income professionals in the U.S.

    Many of your comments are really interesting and have me thinking broader now. I'm going to speak with my lawyer customer this week, and ask him what he thinks. Sizeable law firms have one or two people that do nothing but make it rain. Rainmakers rarely litigate or handle the case much past getting it in-house and the primary filings. Usually the case is handed off to a specialist junior partner and his/her staff of junior lawyers and paralegals.

    The rainmaker gets a pre-arranged share of the pre-tax income generated by each case, over and above his salary.

    So, the real question of pay for performance with a law firm has to be answered by how the arrangement is made legal.

    Of course, looking farther down the road, what happens when you bring-in a client case that wins big bucks, and then the lawyer wants to welch on the deal? It could get ugly if you haven't planned for that contingency.

    I think lawyers can figure a way around anything, even their own state bar code of conduct, if they want to bad enough. (Remember the old prohibition against advertising?)

    I suspect that most would not want you to work for any other lawyer, but if you already have successes with other lawyer specialties, that shouldn't be a problem.

    There are many sides and angles to this idea. It might just be applicable to other types of services.

    Pay-for-performance is not some thuggery. It's a high level refinement of the business arrangement common in many industries, like the arrangements between a big oil company and the numerous business entities they work with in their various functions: exploration, drilling, refining, transportation, distribution.

    Look, local search IS THE ultimate place that internet business will land. And, if that is correct, it will be a monstrous industry. Huge. Billions.

    So, call yourselves pioneers but that's what my vision for local search/SEO generated sales will become. Eventually, there will be lots of firms doing these functions exclusively because it will be too expensive to do it in-house. Like local Ad agencies, they will likely morph into doing this, if they haven't already started.

    That's just a part of my visioneering for internet biz. We're still in the Stone Age of internet marketing and its sub-sector, local search.

    Ask yourself, why do people in certain industries pay seemingly ridiculous up front flat fees to lead generators? Why?

    Could it be that they know better than anyone how incredibly valuable a really good lead is worth? Could it be that the $100 CPA-lead for mesothelioma is worth millions to them? But, it also may not be worth diddly. That's where the pay-for-performance factor becomes a viable alternative for finding leads/new customers.

    All the above assumes one huge thing: you can do everything you assert - 1st page, qualified leads from 1st page, clients that develop into "rain".

    About 30 years ago, a very smart man told me that "you can always find people without any imagination. They are right where you last saw them."

    I have found that to be profoundly true. Add some determination, commitment, and action to some imagination, and you never know where you will find that person.

    Well, I'm still just brainstorming here.

    TB
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    The short cut to success is always the long cut for lasting success.
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  • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
    I'll play devils advocate and say that one SOLID reason, that I've had personal experience with, NOT to charge on a performance based level like you want is that you're relying on the ability of the client to close deals, track, be honest enough to share, and not waste leads.

    In my experience, most companies don't make use of their leads anywhere NEAR the potential that they could. On top of that, if you ask most small business people where a recurring client came from (I mean the actual lead source) they'll tell you something... but many times that something will be wrong. i.e. They'll think that person was a personal referral because they've built a relationship with them when in fact that person came in from a postcard mailing. (trust me, it happens A LOT).

    So, how can you reasonably expect to be paid on a future value of these customers if the business owners can't track them?

    They're certainly not going to let you micromanage their business... and to be honest, it would be a NIGHTMARE to even try if you had more than 1 client.

    And what about all the leads that the client CAN'T close? Are you just going to accept $0 for those?... because generating them cost you the same amount as generating a paid client.


    That's why a cost per lead program is significantly more efficient (and many times considerably more profitable in the long term).

    Why do companies like LendingTree do cost per lead? Because they get their cash up front (cashflow), don't have to wait for a transaction to occur between the vendor and lead, and continue to "make it rain" quickly.


    If you want to monetize the leads you're driving for more than just the CPL value to your clients you could:

    1. Collect the leads on a co-reg basis (meaning both of you keep the lead) and continue to market your own offers to them. (careful on privacy policies and such).

    2. Sell your leads on a non-exclusive basis to 2 or more clients in the same niche (happens all the time).

    3. Promote back end offers on your thank you pages. If you're promoting a real estate lander looking for new home buyers, maybe the thank you page is a free credit report CPA offer.

    4. Sell leads to NON-competing businesses (disclosing it to both clients). i.e. new home buyers to both real estate agents and loan officers.

    5. Sell "expired leads" in bulk to call houses and other telemarketing companies looking for that specific demographic.

    etc.

    Also keep in mind that this means you should own the web property and not be doing contract work on a clients web property.


    The value to you is in the LEAD... not in the clients ability to harvest that lead.
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  • Profile picture of the author cscarpero
    In the case of the lawyers, you cannot get a piece of the deal. (at least not here in Ohio). Also, keep in mind that these cases often take YEARS to get settled. Will cut into your cash flow quite a bit!
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    I'm an online marketer and mortgage loan officer.

    Connect with me at www.Scarpero.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Hugh
    This is exactly why I RENT websites, not sell them. I build a site for
    a generic legal function "accident-lawyer.com". Get it ranked by the
    search engines, then tell the lawyer how many "uniques" it gets and
    let him tell me what it might be worth to him - every month.

    Hugh
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    "Never make someone a priority in your life who makes you an option in theirs." Anon.
    "Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon." -- Winston Churchill

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  • Profile picture of the author cbest
    My first thought at the beginning of the thread was to have a sort of 'membership' site or a leased site per profession, if they decide to go with someone else you're still keeping the rankings etc..

    as for pay per performance as SEO consultants... we limit ourselves to one customer within a certain geo-sector. Just throwing this out as part of the brainstorming... why not let the clients bid on their ranking? If we are able to capture the local city + keyword we could essentially allow for more than one client per profession.
    Platinum gets top ranking, gold, silver (or whatever names). probably wouldn't do more than 3-4 levels max

    Rather than a straight pay per performance... have them pay for exclusivity..?? since otherwise we limit out market to one profession in an area.


    Christine
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    Offline/Online Coupon App free coupon for your clients coming soon.

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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Besides charging a monthly fee for maintaining first page ranking, I have my webpage link along for the ride, ie 'Designed by yourwebpage . com"
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