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What are your valuable services versus your BS padding?

by ryanjm
21 replies
I was reading through that massive goldmine thread started by Dexx about what offline marketers are charging and services they provide and had a few questions. I'm coming at this from an SEO standpoint of "if I increase the number of hits to their site by targeting X number of keywords, their business will increase profits." But I read a lot of people talking about articles, press releases, twitter, linkedin, youtube, adwords, etc... and a lot of it seems like garbage filler to pad out the truly valuable service of SEO work. Like, from my perspective (offline noob and still fairly new to IM in general), it seems like the majority of those 'services' are simply words to throw at a customer to make it seem like they are getting a lot of stuff for their money, when in reality the biggest boost to their business will be the on-page and off-page SEO + local listing work you do to get them a top spot on Google.

Am I wrong with my line of thinking?

I know the big-time pros talk about not guaranteeing rankings and that they provide 'other' services (like what I mentioned), but how can you assure them you will increase their profit if you can't increase their ranking? I feel like I would just be setting up a lot of junk (twitter, fbook) that no one will find unless their site ranks well...
#padding #services #valuable #versus
  • Profile picture of the author Bronwyn and Keith
    Hi Ryan

    We get results for our clients. If they don't come easily we continue working and creating backlinks etc until they do.

    No room for BS. Just results.

    Regards

    Bronwyn and Keith
    Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

    I was reading through that massive goldmine thread started by Dexx about what offline marketers are charging and services they provide and had a few questions. I'm coming at this from an SEO standpoint of "if I increase the number of hits to their site by targeting X number of keywords, their business will increase profits." But I read a lot of people talking about articles, press releases, twitter, linkedin, youtube, adwords, etc... and a lot of it seems like garbage filler to pad out the truly valuable service of SEO work. Like, from my perspective (offline noob and still fairly new to IM in general), it seems like the majority of those 'services' are simply words to throw at a customer to make it seem like they are getting a lot of stuff for their money, when in reality the biggest boost to their business will be the on-page and off-page SEO + local listing work you do to get them a top spot on Google.

    Am I wrong with my line of thinking?

    I know the big-time pros talk about not guaranteeing rankings and that they provide 'other' services (like what I mentioned), but how can you assure them you will increase their profit if you can't increase their ranking? I feel like I would just be setting up a lot of junk (twitter, fbook) that no one will find unless their site ranks well...
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  • Profile picture of the author stevemack
    only results matter in Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author scoopy
    Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

    I was reading through that massive goldmine thread started by Dexx about what offline marketers are charging and services they provide and had a few questions. I'm coming at this from an SEO standpoint of "if I increase the number of hits to their site by targeting X number of keywords, their business will increase profits." But I read a lot of people talking about articles, press releases, twitter, linkedin, youtube, adwords, etc... and a lot of it seems like garbage filler to pad out the truly valuable service of SEO work. Like, from my perspective (offline noob and still fairly new to IM in general), it seems like the majority of those 'services' are simply words to throw at a customer to make it seem like they are getting a lot of stuff for their money, when in reality the biggest boost to their business will be the on-page and off-page SEO + local listing work you do to get them a top spot on Google.

    Am I wrong with my line of thinking?

    I know the big-time pros talk about not guaranteeing rankings and that they provide 'other' services (like what I mentioned), but how can you assure them you will increase their profit if you can't increase their ranking? I feel like I would just be setting up a lot of junk (twitter, fbook) that no one will find unless their site ranks well...
    I agree with you man all this other stuff can come as a additional to boost but idk lets see what warriors got to say.
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  • Profile picture of the author scoopy
    Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

    I was reading through that massive goldmine thread started by Dexx about what offline marketers are charging and services they provide and had a few questions. I'm coming at this from an SEO standpoint of "if I increase the number of hits to their site by targeting X number of keywords, their business will increase profits." But I read a lot of people talking about articles, press releases, twitter, linkedin, youtube, adwords, etc... and a lot of it seems like garbage filler to pad out the truly valuable service of SEO work. Like, from my perspective (offline noob and still fairly new to IM in general), it seems like the majority of those 'services' are simply words to throw at a customer to make it seem like they are getting a lot of stuff for their money, when in reality the biggest boost to their business will be the on-page and off-page SEO + local listing work you do to get them a top spot on Google.

    Am I wrong with my line of thinking?

    I know the big-time pros talk about not guaranteeing rankings and that they provide 'other' services (like what I mentioned), but how can you assure them you will increase their profit if you can't increase their ranking? I feel like I would just be setting up a lot of junk (twitter, fbook) that no one will find unless their site ranks well...
    Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

    If you're being paid to set up accounts, then increasing their profits should not be your worry, and they should be fully aware of that up front.

    People who sell these kinds of services (new website, accounts, etc) should never be talking to business owners about increasing profits. Why? Because these things are just tools.

    If a guy said "I'll build you a house", took your money and then came and gave you a bunch of tools and said "alright any second now they should make a house!", you'd be reaching for your gun.

    Same situation. You should only be talking to businesses about increasing their profits if these tools are to be used in some sort of systematic way. The tools themselves are worthless, it's how they're used.

    Only talk profits if you've already done the research on their business and have identified a workable way to use the tools.
    Right on man they arte just tools if your offering web design, FB, twitter, an all the billion other social stuff then make sure your not saying increase profits you never know...

    SEO in the other hand first page of google we will have to see what warriors think.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanjm
    Maybe I was confused by this thread: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...thly-fees.html

    where a lot of the guys talk about selling the business on being able to increase the number of their customers, etc... and not to focus on the ins-and-outs of exactly how you will achieve that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

    People who sell these kinds of services (new website, accounts, etc) should never be talking to business owners about increasing profits. Why? Because these things are just tools.
    I'm curious if you see the irony in this statement, as it directly contradicts your advertising methods of your WSO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

      If you can find one spot in my WSO thread where I mention increasing profits I'll give you 5 bucks.

      You did read the WSO thread before you commented right?

      Saying to a business "This new website will help you get new clients" is very different from saying "here are what we estimate your new revenue projections from this website to be" or "these new social media accounts will affect your margins in X way" or making promises about what said services will do.
      Sigh.

      Simplicity is always fun.

      I'm referring to your line, "Ask yourself this. How much are your deals with clients worth? $500? $1,000? $5,000? $10,000? How much would it be worth to you to be able to hand them something that would lend you instant credibility and help establish that all important confidence in your ability to help them? A hell of a lot more than $147 that's for sure!".

      Your book is a tool to your target market, the exact same as a facebook page is to a company.

      Implying $147 is a drop in the bucket in comparison to what a client deal would generate is, one, talking increased revenue thus leading to increased profits and, two, doing exactly what you criticized a different market sector for.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        I've written a book for the small/medium business owner who knows nothing about internet marketing, explaining all the many ways their offline business could benefit from being online. - All benefits lead to revenue. Revenue leads to profits.

        I wrote this book to use as a promotional tool for myself when trying to sell my own clients on my credentials and why IM is the way to go for their business. - Ah. There you have it. You claim its a tool that you use to sell your clients on using IM with you. Increased visibility > increased revenue > increased profit.

        Either way, you probably want more clients. - More clients > more revenue > more profit.

        The exact confidence they need to have to sign a cheque with your name on it. - Money?!? Surely that's not for increased profits!

        ...and I'm tired of skimming it.

        There you have it. Increased profits.

        Tools are used to create revenue, plain and simple.

        Remember that line Rus said to you about pointing the finger will always have 4 fingers pointing at you?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
          Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

          That last line says a lot about your motives here.

          Just look at the distances you're forced to reach across to try and make your point.

          This > This > This etc

          An officejet printer is a tool. When HP runs a commercial talking about how the officejet printer is a great tool for your business productivity, is it the same thing as them making promises or statements about revenue or profit increase?

          By your logic, it is. Because the printer is a tool, the tool is used to be more efficient, more efficiency means more sales means more revenues means more profits.

          Do you see how ridiculous that is?

          I'm going to state it again as simply as I can:

          If you are selling a client websites, or social media accounts, etc, and these services are the whole of your work, you should not be making statements to the client about what it's going to do to their profits.

          Why? Because unless you've done some serious research into their business, there is simply no way you can have any idea how these tools are going to effect their overall revenues and profits.
          Glad you used that example.

          HP printers advertisements have long advertised, along with Kodak, how their ink is cheaper and how their printers use less ink while printing.

          Tell me, what is the reason for that type of marketing? Is it to save money?

          Being a consultant, surely you know that the less money going out with the same results coming in results in higher profit.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

            And again the point is that its silly to draw a comparison between that and specifics regarding numbers.

            Like I've said, this entire time I've been referring to making promises, i.e. specifics. " Sales will increase X much." etc.

            But if I misread the OP and that isn't what he meant, then it doesn't apply. Which I think is what you're talking about.

            I think we're just arguing two different points here.
            Again, he never said sales will increase x amount.

            He said if he targets x amount of keywords, by deduction he will have increased traffic. Again, increased traffic typically means increased revenues and thus increased profits.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by healymedia View Post

        I literally can not understand where you're drawing the comparison here?
        It's a VERY thin comparison, if valid at all.

        Read the WSO thread. Again, I assume you've read it. It reads very clearly that the book is a tool to help consultants establish themselves with clients. Nowhere does it promise to make them X amount of money. Nowhere does it say thing 1 about what increase in revenue it will generate.

        It says that it will help establish confidence with their clients. And that it is worth more than $147 based on that. Which it is.

        Again, your comparison is poor at best.

        Let me use a simple a/b comparison to try and illustrate for you the difference here.

        a) Mr. Business owner, this website is a vast improvement over the last one, and based on the way it performs and reflects your business, it will have a positive effect on your ability to get clients online.

        b) Mr. Business owner, here is how this new website will effect your sales numbers and here is how it will effect your profit margins. Etc. etc.

        See the difference? B sets standards that no one providing these kinds of services on their own can possibly set accurately. And thus they should simply not be set.

        Now if instead of just a websites, or just accounts, etc, it was a highly developed strategy based on a deep understanding of the clients business, then you have a much stronger basis for talking to the business owner about what kinds of returns they can expect.

        See the difference? If you still think it in some way contradicts my WSO thread then I'm not sure what to say to you.
        Selective reasoning along with simplicity, even more fun.

        Read the post you replied to. He never said a direct number on increased profits, either. It was an example he used that he saw others doing.

        SEO is obviously to game the search engines. Gaming the search engines is a tool to increased promotion and traffic, typically resulting in higher profits through increased revenue.

        Your sales letter outlined using the book to gain leverage via confidence in the consultant. Having business' confidence surely isn't more valuable than $147, unless that business becomes a client.

        SEO, websites, web 2.0 accounts are the exact same thing. They're also useless unless that traffic either sends referrals or becomes a customer.
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  • Profile picture of the author danemorgan
    But Ryan, the OP, who you quoted didn't say anything like that either. He was talking in terms of increasing ranking in Google SERPS. That is what he says he offers his clients.

    Now, it could be arguable that if they have crappy conversion and CRM, this, alone, isn't going to help them a lot with profitablility. But it doesn't seem like he's making claims of certain levels of profitablility, he's just saying that the better ranking gives them more chances at customers which SHOULD increase profitablility.

    Same as using your book SHOULD enable someone to get more clients which SHOULD increase their profitability, so long as a considerable number of other factors are also being taken care of in their business.
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    Did you ever notice that “author” is the root of the word “authority“?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    Think of keywords, web 2.0s, etc. to an SEOer as direct mail and autoresponders are to you.

    What do you think will happen if you use direct mail done correctly? Increased revenue.

    What do you think will happen if you use autoresponders effectively? Increased revenue.

    What do you think will happen if an SEOer has a company facebook page that goes viral via his marketing campaign?

    What do you think will happen if an SEOer hits the #1 spot for his client's targeted keywords?
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by ryanjm View Post

    I'm coming at this from an SEO standpoint of "if I increase the number of hits to their site by targeting X number of keywords, their business will increase profits." But I read a lot of people talking about articles, press releases, twitter, linkedin, youtube, adwords, etc... and a lot of it seems like garbage filler to pad out the truly valuable service of SEO work. Like, from my perspective (offline noob and still fairly new to IM in general), it seems like the majority of those 'services' are simply words to throw at a customer to make it seem like they are getting a lot of stuff for their money, when in reality the biggest boost to their business will be the on-page and off-page SEO + local listing work you do to get them a top spot on Google.

    First of all increasing the ranking of a website online or even getting "X number of hits" is no guarantee whatsoever that you will increase the profits of a business.

    Put another way if you get a business to number one for every keyword phrase you target and you don't bring in any extra profits for them you effectively just ripped them off whatever fee you charged.

    For many businesses using SEO as the first strategy is very poor use of resources (in many cases effective follow up with prospects and customers can produce far more profits much more quickly and then when you eventually do start to focus more on lead generation the value of each lead will be higher).


    Articles, online press releases, submitting videos to youtube are all strategies that can produce traffic in themselves and create powerful baclinks to a website which can improve on the search engine rankings of a site.

    Ultimately when you're working with a client it doesn't matter which strategies you use to help them.

    As long as you help them to make more in profits than the fees you charge you've delivered them an exceptionally valuable service.

    That's where your focus should be.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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    Old School Copy Like This Is BACK & Converting Like Crazy!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ashley Skuse
    I don't glorify my services by including the likes of Twitter and Facebook into the equation. For a client I will do keyword research, on-page optimization, and then I focus on article submissions and backlink-building for the best and most rankable keywords.

    And no matter how good you are at SEO, you should absolutely not guarantee any high ranking - simply because it's never a guarantee.
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