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Spectacular example of local marketing for an attorney

by MichaelHiles
32 replies
A local attorney has parlayed his media presence into national notoriety - and has subsequently been rated as one of the top trial lawyers in the US.

He's leveraged his identity into talk radio on the big local AM station, opened a chain of pubs, and established a screen printing/apparel company.

He's done a hell of a job leveraging social media, does video segments, publishes on his blog (which is now hosted on the radio station site), has a massive presence on Facebook, and is literally one of the top trial attorneys in the entire metro area.

For those who are looking for examples of success stories for local marketing that involve all areas of internet success - I strongly suggest looking at his entire effort.

For the SEO folks who swear that SEO is the sole answer to internet marketing... he doesn't even show up on the home pages of the top keyword searches.



He actually doesn't even give a crap about SEO.

http://www.ericdeters.com/

P.S. He outsources almost all of his internet content production. I think he's actually discussed starting an ad agency though because he's employing all the talent to do his own stuff.
#attorney #local #marketing #spectacular
  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Can you say, Rich Schefren and the mavin matrix? Good catch Michael!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Bulldog has been at it for a while. I know him personally, although I don't actually advise him as a client. He's a smart enough guy and has his program down on his own.

    But for those who want to see a success template - this is definately one that can easily be reverse engineered and duplicated... for even more than an attorney.

    The bigger point is that if anyone went in and tried to pitch him SEO services, he'd laugh at them.

    Offline consultants really need to understand real business owners, and expand their frame of reference. Pitch a bigger program that involves the entire shooting match. Function as a project leader and outsource. Coordinate the entire effort and do the media blitz. Help position the client as an industry leader. Quit tinkering around with chicken $zchittt.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Bulldog has been at it for a while. I know him personally, although I don't actually advise him as a client. He's a smart enough guy and has his program down on his own.

      But for those who want to see a success template - this is definately one that can easily be reverse engineered and duplicated... for even more than an attorney.

      The bigger point is that if anyone went in and tried to pitch him SEO services, he'd laugh at them.

      Offline consultants really need to understand real business owners, and expand their frame of reference. Pitch a bigger program that involves the entire shooting match. Function as a project leader and outsource. Coordinate the entire effort and do the media blitz. Help position the client as an industry leader. Quit tinkering around with chicken .
      Michael,
      Would you please spam this post here around the WF media area...Pleasssssseeee. Could
      not have said it better myself. So many people are trying to get 1k 500, 250 checks, instead of focusing on the Big Picture. I keep tellin them, theres no short cuts, and Consulting is far greater than SEO and GOOGLE. Thanks for a great reference.

      Having my people look at all his stuff now to see what we can learn that we are not using for immediate Implementation.

      FYI, will hit u up Wednesday, just finished Re launching the Night Club over the last 4 weeks, and the Hours in the Club Business are Ridiculous at best.

      Thanks for the Share and the Post.

      Regards,
      Robert Nelson
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      • Profile picture of the author topcaller
        Terrific thread Micheal.

        We tend to get so attached to a particular method or system because we have had some success with it that we never get out of our little boxes and expand our thinking.

        Thanks for the slap, I needed it!
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post

          Michael,
          Would you please spam this post here around the WF media area...Pleasssssseeee. Could
          not have said it better myself. So many people are trying to get 1k 500, 250 checks, instead of focusing on the Big Picture. I keep tellin them, theres no short cuts, and Consulting is far greater than SEO and GOOGLE. Thanks for a great reference.

          Having my people look at all his stuff now to see what we can learn that we are not using for immediate Implementation.

          FYI, will hit u up Wednesday, just finished Re launching the Night Club over the last 4 weeks, and the Hours in the Club Business are Ridiculous at best.

          Thanks for the Share and the Post.

          Regards,
          Robert Nelson
          I've been "spamming" the WF for a long time with my poisonous ideas about business and marketing.

          I'll be around all day on Wed. Skype me.

          Originally Posted by Nick Zopp View Post

          Terrific thread Micheal.

          We tend to get so attached to a particular method or system because we have had some success with it that we never get out of our little boxes and expand our thinking.

          Thanks for the slap, I needed it!

          Mission accomplished! Glad it inspired you.

          ALL successful businesses engage in benchmarking and best practices.

          I will go ahead and stake the claim that among the top causes of failure for people in the world of marketing consulting is the inability or refusal to expand their awareness and thinking, and incorporate best practice approaches into their own services.

          A specialist tends to become an employee - even a self-employed one... but an employee nonetheless.
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  • Profile picture of the author redcell1
    "He's done a hell of a job leveraging social media, does video segments, publishes on his blog (which is now hosted on the radio station site), has a massive presence on Facebook, and is literally one of the top trial attorneys in the entire metro area."

    That's why he doesn't need to do SEO.

    I do have to say though as a IM I have to ask what is his conversion rate on his site ?
    Also what business is he missing out on because he doesnt do SEO?
    if he had SEO + everything else he has done = imagine the results ?

    Honestly an Ad agency ? Maybe its me but if he only gets away with things for his name then it can only go so far.

    You said you know the guy personally and honestly he is a spectacular example, but to me he is one of the few who pulled this off.
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    Just here to see the shenanigans.

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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    There are many, many examples of this being done extremely well.

    This guy named Gary Vaynerchuk wrote a NYT best selling book that sort of created the roadmap that a lot of people are presently following. I can't recall any info in "Crush It" about SEO.

    I am still scratching my head, trying to figure out how internet marketing became synonymous with SEO services. But one thing is for sure, Eric Deters doesn't rely upon being #1 in Google for his business - he doesn't even care about it. He's focused on creating his own brand by leveraging the internet and new media, and couldn't care less if Google re-indexes. He's a household name in the market, and people search for HIM specifically.

    As a business owner, which gives you more leverage and control over the long haul? What's the ROI? Especially in consideration of the kind of garbage stunts that a lot of SEO hucksters do when people stop paying them their monthly toll. Why should any competent business person allow their business to be held hostage by SEO artistry? Or even Google? They SHOULDN'T, and any scrupulous marketing consultant should be advising their clients as such... hedge your bets on any and all internet-based marketing efforts.

    See that's the real rub. SEO-only folks really have a hard time quantifying the ROI of what they do. I am not saying that SEO isn't a viable tactic, but it should be viewed as just one of a much wider array of tricks in the bag.

    But for one trick pony's that's sort of a hard thing to do I guess. Unfortunately, a giant percentage of "offline" has been sold as just that... a one trick pony that eventually quits jumping.
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    • Profile picture of the author redcell1
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      There are many, many examples of this being done extremely well.

      This guy named Gary Vaynerchuk wrote a NYT best selling book that sort of created the roadmap that a lot of people are presently following. I can't recall any info in "Crush It" about SEO.

      I am still scratching my head, trying to figure out how internet marketing became synonymous with SEO services. But one thing is for sure, Eric Deters doesn't rely upon being #1 in Google for his business - he doesn't even care about it. He's focused on creating his own brand by leveraging the internet and new media, and couldn't care less if Google re-indexes. He's a household name in the market, and people search for HIM specifically.

      As a business owner, which gives you more leverage and control over the long haul? What's the ROI? Especially in consideration of the kind of garbage stunts that a lot of SEO hucksters do when people stop paying them their monthly toll. Why should any competent business person allow their business to be held hostage by SEO artistry? Or even Google? They SHOULDN'T, and any scrupulous marketing consultant should be advising their clients as such... hedge your bets on any and all internet-based marketing efforts.

      See that's the real rub. SEO-only folks really have a hard time quantifying the ROI of what they do. I am not saying that SEO isn't a viable tactic, but it should be viewed as just one of a much wider array of tricks in the bag.

      But for one trick pony's that's sort of a hard thing to do I guess. Unfortunately, a giant percentage of "offline" has been sold as just that... a one trick pony that eventually quits jumping.
      Okay Gary Vaynerchuk is another exception to the rule like your friend the bulldog.

      I mean Gary vaynerchuk also took his family's wine business and blew it up with it's site,social media etc.

      Another example you could throw out is oprah. But then again she did have a TV show and now has her own magazine, book club, and a cult following.

      By the way, let's say this guy does go into marketing. Alot of business owners won't have their own radio shows, be truly active on social media or even want to venture out to other industries like your friend is doing.

      They just want to know that the "marketing" aspect of their business is being done and they can get back to going on with their business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    I'm concerned that the responses to this thread are so low. I guess people are not understanding that your perspective transcends the services.

    As you said, the services like Google Places, SEO, Fanpages, these are just a small part of the overall approach. The idea is to help your clients become the authoritative leader in their community.

    If your going to do Google Places for a Roofing contractor your only going to get to work with 1 company. This means your only going to get X amount of money from them for that 1 thing. Why not take it all the way to the top and help them achieve that highest possible public position in their town.

    The leader in the community for the roofing industry. What happens? Well you get paid a hell of a lot more and the business owner become a celeb of sorts.

    As an example;

    When I was in PA working, a competitors crew went to the wrong house and started tearing off the roof. What could have turned into a nightmare ended up being one of the best things that could have happened to them.

    It was all over the news and the contractor could have said, that mistakes are made but we can't do anything unless the home owner wants to do business with us. Trust me, there are contractors who would be STUPID enough to say that.

    Instead he said, he will let the home owner pick a new roof and he'd do right by him and give him a new roof at no cost.

    Overnight the community perception was that some one runs a business with actual morals and not only did right by some one but went way beyond!

    How does this apply to what Michael is pointing out?

    It shows us that we could be showing our clients how to become public figures that stand out for their leadership and putting back into the community.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarksWineClub
    Gary V is a legend and one of our competitors, well in the same industry at least.

    He does a good job at creating content, he has about 1,000 videos online already and has a presence, love him or hate him. Personally, I get tired of seeing the Jet spitbucket etc.

    For me, I'd rather have a stronger conversion rate and more traffic to my site (and the corresponding sales figures) than making myself a media personality. My business partner would say something along the line of, forget the fame, I just want the money.
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    • Profile picture of the author redcell1
      Originally Posted by MarksWineClub View Post

      Gary V is a legend and one of our competitors, well in the same industry at least.

      He does a good job at creating content, he has about 1,000 videos online already and has a presence, love him or hate him. Personally, I get tired of seeing the Jet spitbucket etc.

      For me, I'd rather have a stronger conversion rate and more traffic to my site (and the corresponding sales figures) than making myself a media personality. My business partner would say something along the line of, forget the fame, I just want the money.
      Mark I have to agree with you, Honestly I could care less if someone recognized me from my book,videos. I would rather just have conversions/sales figures that is what I work for at the end of the day.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Thanks Michael. SEO isnt the only way for a website to be successful. There alot of ways to use a website. I have had sites before that were highly profitable and had nothing to do with search engines.

    A: Websites can work by offline affiliates who refer people.
    B: You can place ads on monster.com and send thousands of opportunity seekers per week to your website...
    C: If you do international trade on big bulk deals, search engines mean virtually nothing to you... but your website can still produce thousands per month.

    Those are just a few of examples.

    Lots of ways to skin a cat.

    It would be interesting to list all the ways websites can profit without search engine traffic.

    Good thread man!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    There are so many small business owners "getting it" now. Sure, in contrast to the sheer numbers of small businesses vs. the ones fully leveraging all the marketing tour de force that is the entire scope of the internet - it is indeed still the exception.

    That's where the real opportunity is at. Not advising people in something that may or may not be viable in 3 months after the next Google shuffle. Now that Google has bought Groupon, you can bet that all the local sales staff will continue to do their thing too. Along with Reach Local, YP, etc... These people aren't stupid, and neither is the business owner that understands building a marketing machine independent of the control of someone gaming the search algorithm. That can go away in an instant, but a multi-channel, multi-venue brand can't be bumped, sandboxed, or delisted.

    MARKETING is far more than the low level tactical function of manipulating search results. And Russ gets that point.

    The real opportunity is helping businesses understand that at a strategic level, and creating a client for life as more, new marketing vehicles emerge... as opposed to being the one trick pony.

    Oh... and Vaynerchuk is doing what? $30 million? A massive marketshare of online wine sales that doesn't rely upon search one iota.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pointer
    This is a great example of someone positioning themselves as an expert in the field.

    It's quite a different strategy than other IM tactics. It definitely takes a certain person to be able to do this. Some people don't want to be made out to be celebrities.

    I think the strategy to recommend to a prospect depends on the needs, wants, and personality of each individual.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheila
    Great examples of true marketing . . . thanks!

    Internet marketing, in any of its forms, is only a subset of the bigger marketing picture - and marketing always comes down to this - find a way to provide value and exchange it for a profit.

    I'd say your friends are doing just fine with their marketing campaigns, using tried and true marketing principles instead of the latest and greatest fad. They'll be around for the long haul.

    Even though internet marketing is big right now, it looks like mobile marketing is going to be the next big thing to focus on - and then, will SEO and google search be as important as we might think it is today? I doubt it.

    The mediums and tactics will always change, but the basic marketing concepts never do . . . so I'm not going to sweat the small stuff . . . thanks for giving us a good reminder to just do what works.
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    • Profile picture of the author willz605
      Hey Mike....

      Fantastic post....love the bigger picture....

      Reminds me of another niche.....auto dealerships.

      Even though car dealerships are a dime a dozen......Gary Barbera's Dodgeland in the Philadelphia area uses and used multiple marketing tactics to drive consumers into their dealerships and the least of which was the internet.....

      As a kid....I couldn't help but repeat his local radio and tv ad....."Is Barbera the Best....Boy I Guess".....

      His ads drove lots of people to his dealerships including me...

      Think about this for a second....the average dealership earns on average $1500 clear per car....sometimes much less for a new car and they sell about 100-150 cars per month.

      Gary Barbera's dealerships sold 500-1000 cars per month.....now that is big....how about revenue in the neighborhood of $1 million in car sales per month then add parts and service....

      I love marketing discussions like these....
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  • Profile picture of the author jsherloc
    I completely agree that we should be focusing on the BIG PICTURE, even if we are only "seo service providers", or essentially "employees" as suggested earlier. My problem is that the majority of offline promotional stuff takes A SERIOUS amount of time to coordinate and a serious amount of patience (in my experience), and creates many other factors completely out of my control.

    I know online marketing. I know what works. I have "control" over my SEO strategy. Sure, I recognize that I have ZERO control over Google itself.....but I feel like I have a bit more control over any dramatic issues or serious changes than I would trying to manage and motivate a group of 5 underpaid employees to determine the success of an offline social media promotion. Ya know?

    So my issues with incorporating "the entire marketing strategy" are the time requirements, and the complete lack of control. Now, add the biggie, LACK OF ADEQUATE COMPENSATION for the time spent. It is all about ROI, we are not doing this stuff as a charity case (though that is great way to use your talents for a good cause and to help establish credibility). At the end of the day, I have a much better ROI providing primarily online marketing services for small business owners. And I believe that they will get a better ROI by allowing me to focus on all these online factors first.

    That being said, I won't take on a client that clearly will not benefit from ANY online marketing strategies. I'm not gonna take on a client and do seo/social media/video marketing for them if their site was made in 1997 on Angelfire....

    I feel like I cover the full picture online, other stuff requires way more time and should demand way more $$$.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

    He's leveraged his identity into talk radio on the big local AM station
    This is VERY easy to do and not only locally.

    I used to do a show that fed to 40 commercial radio stations across Australia.

    Also many other radio shows.

    Most talk back radio is desperate for interesting people to interview.

    Most have a minimum number of hours each shift they have to fill up with live content (interviews etc) and that's not easy to do.

    I have been called many times by radio hosts looking for a last minute interview.

    Also be aware that any time you do an interview you should try to record it and use it as content on your website and in other ways.

    Interviews on the radio or stories about a client in the newspaper tend to hold more credibility (he must be good if he's on the radio and in the newspaper).


    Just as an aside whenever you add content to a site you should be aware of SEO.

    In many cases just choosing a long tail keyword phrase as a meta title for the page is enough to get that page ranked at the top or near the top of google.

    If you start adding tens or hundreds of pages of content to your site (or your client's site) over the course of a few months or a few years the potential extra visitors can be quite substantial.

    Having the view that you're going to make content work for you in multiple ways is smart marketing.

    Narrow thinking...thinking that there's only one "right" way to do marketing is a poor mindset no matter which way it's directed.

    When you're open to using multiple strategies in multiple ways and being aware of the results you're getting that's most likely to improve your performance.

    Also some marketing breakthroughs will come as a complete surprise...something that happens almost accidentally when you're trying to do something else.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

      This is VERY easy to do and not only locally.

      I used to do a show that fed to 40 commercial radio stations across Australia.

      Also many other radio shows.

      Most talk back radio is desperate for interesting people to interview.

      Most have a minimum number of hours each shift they have to fill up with live content (interviews etc) and that's not easy to do.

      I have been called many times by radio hosts looking for a last minute interview.

      Also be aware that any time you do an interview you should try to record it and use it as content on your website and in other ways.

      Interviews on the radio or stories about a client in the newspaper tend to hold more credibility (he must be good if he's on the radio and in the newspaper).


      Just as an aside whenever you add content to a site you should be aware of SEO.

      In many cases just choosing a long tail keyword phrase as a meta title for the page is enough to get that page ranked at the top or near the top of google.

      If you start adding tens or hundreds of pages of content to your site (or your client's site) over the course of a few months or a few years the potential extra visitors can be quite substantial.

      Having the view that you're going to make content work for you in multiple ways is smart marketing.

      Narrow thinking...thinking that there's only one "right" way to do marketing is a poor mindset no matter which way it's directed.

      When you're open to using multiple strategies in multiple ways and being aware of the results you're getting that's most likely to improve your performance.

      Also some marketing breakthroughs will come as a complete surprise...something that happens almost accidentally when you're trying to do something else.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
      We very much agree. SEO is important. It's not exclusive.

      And indeed, many times the thing that creates success is the silly thing that one thinks is the dumb idea and poo poos.

      Originally Posted by jsherloc View Post

      I completely agree that we should be focusing on the BIG PICTURE, even if we are only "seo service providers", or essentially "employees" as suggested earlier. My problem is that the majority of offline promotional stuff takes A SERIOUS amount of time to coordinate and a serious amount of patience (in my experience), and creates many other factors completely out of my control.

      I know online marketing. I know what works. I have "control" over my SEO strategy. Sure, I recognize that I have ZERO control over Google itself.....but I feel like I have a bit more control over any dramatic issues or serious changes than I would trying to manage and motivate a group of 5 underpaid employees to determine the success of an offline social media promotion. Ya know?

      So my issues with incorporating "the entire marketing strategy" are the time requirements, and the complete lack of control. Now, add the biggie, LACK OF ADEQUATE COMPENSATION for the time spent. It is all about ROI, we are not doing this stuff as a charity case (though that is great way to use your talents for a good cause and to help establish credibility). At the end of the day, I have a much better ROI providing primarily online marketing services for small business owners. And I believe that they will get a better ROI by allowing me to focus on all these online factors first.

      That being said, I won't take on a client that clearly will not benefit from ANY online marketing strategies. I'm not gonna take on a client and do seo/social media/video marketing for them if their site was made in 1997 on Angelfire....

      I feel like I cover the full picture online, other stuff requires way more time and should demand way more $$$.
      Yeah this is the tougher one. Small businesses remain small for a reason. The least of which is an owner who refuses to invest more capital back into the growth of their company. You get a person who works hard to build up the shop, and starts knocking back $75-80K a year, and they're in cruise mode. Momma goes to the nail shop once a week, the kids have horse riding lessons, and he can drink beer on the boat on the weekend. When you show up asking a person like that to invest back in their business, you're cutting into recreation money.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

    For the SEO folks who swear that SEO is the sole answer to internet marketing... he doesn't even show up on the home pages of the top keyword searches.



    He actually doesn't even give a crap about SEO.
    An intelligent marketer who focuses on the big picture could tell you quite accurately that with just a few changes to the way he's setting up his pages (changing images of text to real text, more intelligent choice of browser titles in the code) he could be getting good search engine rankings and real paying clients coming through those searches.

    Not smart.

    His and his web designer's lack of even the most basic SEO principles will be costing him some very substantial income.

    Intelligent marketers can't afford to ignore any potential source of serious revenue or lead generation, especially where in this case it could be achieved with such minor changes.

    Having your eye on the big picture in marketing AND paying attention to small details are both important.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author redcell1
      Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

      An intelligent marketer who focuses on the big picture could tell you quite accurately that with just a few changes to the way he's setting up his pages (changing images of text to real text, more intelligent choice of browser titles in the code) he could be getting good search engine rankings and real paying clients coming through those searches.

      Not smart.

      His and his web designer's lack of even the most basic SEO principles will be costing him some very substantial income.

      Intelligent marketers can't afford to ignore any potential source of serious revenue or lead generation, especially where in this case it could be achieved with such minor changes.

      Having your eye on the big picture in marketing AND paying attention to small details are both important.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
      Well said Andrew,even though he is "BIG" there is no reason why he can't focus on the minor details like "SEO" to attract more serious revenue.
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

      An intelligent marketer who focuses on the big picture could tell you quite accurately that with just a few changes to the way he's setting up his pages (changing images of text to real text, more intelligent choice of browser titles in the code) he could be getting good search engine rankings and real paying clients coming through those searches.

      Not smart.

      His and his web designer's lack of even the most basic SEO principles will be costing him some very substantial income.

      Intelligent marketers can't afford to ignore any potential source of serious revenue or lead generation, especially where in this case it could be achieved with such minor changes.

      Having your eye on the big picture in marketing AND paying attention to small details are both important.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
      Actually, that would be an intelligent technical person schooled in the daily nuances of the moving target of SEO who could do that analysis. More of a technician and less of a business strategist.

      Repeating again... I am not debating the validity of SEO... I am saying the same thing that you just said... making SEO the solitary focus of an online marketing program EXACTLY meets the logic of your statement.

      We still agree Andrew except that it comes down to ROI. And the SEO/ROI equasion for a guy who has built his own marketing powerhouse is questionable at this stage. And he's in that catbird seat because he diversified his effort rather than spending his resources drilling deep. The cost/benefit gain for a developed program has to be pretty dramatic, and if someone is going to sell SEO to the guy, they have their work cut out for them.

      The entire point was to demonstrate a success model that can be used to create revenue generation ideas, additional services, etc...

      For people who are trying to create an income as a marketing consultant, this example was to demonstrate various ways to offer more services to a client (and subsequently capture a larger portion of that client's marketing budget).

      Some in this topic clearly have been capable of seeing the bigger picture, and will probably make more money as a result. Especially if they learn to regularly benchmark and adopt best practices.
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      • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
        Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

        We still agree Andrew except that it comes down to ROI. And the SEO/ROI equasion for a guy who has built his own marketing powerhouse is questionable at this stage.

        I don't see how the ROI could possibly be questionable.

        We're talking literally an extra hour of work total (or less) from the web designer who put up the pages to choose some potentially lucrative long tail keyword phrases related to the content on each page to use as the browser title in those pages and possibly to have appear in bold somewhere on the page.

        And when creating the text instead of turning it into an image leaving it as text on the web page (which is LESS work).

        So you're talking a LOWER total web design bill for a serious chance at some highly lucrative traffic.

        Just ONE client from local search would be worth many thousands of dollars in extra revenue.

        I can also tell you from experience that when you appear on the radio people go online and search for you because they can't remember your phone number, or they can't quite remember your name etc etc (you wouldn't believe the terms people searched for me online for and in most cases they were ready to buy something from me).

        The same would be true of a good percentage of searches after this lawyer appears on the radio.

        By not appearing in local searches he is almost certainly missing real business.

        Understanding SEO basics is important because it is so simple, requires almost no extra effort (in this case it would have saved on some unnecessary work and reduced the web design bill) and it gets such a massive return on investment (no ongoing cost in many cases and a steady stream of highly qualified, pre-educated leads).

        The real key is not to focus on ONE marketing method (integrated marketing strategies are clearly best and not to exclude simple high return marketing methods due to ignorance as this lawyer has.

        One final point.

        If all you do is SEO and you produce more profits than a client has paid you in fees then you've just provided an exceptionally valuable service.

        In much the same way if this lawyer's website produced profits over what he paid for it then the web designer has done a great job too.

        There is no right and wrong way of doing things and people will do what they know.

        If you have the integrity to get real sales and profits for your client over what you charge them then I personally think that's enough for you to be genuinely proud of what you do regardless of what strategies you use.

        It may not be the ultimate possible outcome but I have never seen that on any site...ever...and I worked for some time in the field of sophisticated split testing on high revenue sites for people who were unbelievably response rate focused.

        There's always room for improvement.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
    Never f'ing heard of him ... National Notoriety?

    SEO ..... really? Who really says or thinks to do SEO to the exclusivity of all else?

    Drama much? A rather extreme example of SEO for google vs. ... spend 80% of time marketing onesself to become a quasi celebrity.

    He didnt just wake up one day and have a radio show, and a huge facebook/social media presence. It took a$$-loads of hard work to pull all this off. More than 95% of the small business owners would ever be willing to do.... PAY FOR.

    This is a shining example of what an advert agencies wet dream is - but these opportunities are and outcomes are 1 in a million if that.

    Just because other folks dont see what you see doesnt always make them all sub humans and unworthy to engage in "marketing". The incessant put downs and demeaning tones has become kinda tired and boring ...
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

      Never f'ing heard of him ... National Notoriety?

      SEO ..... really? Who really says or thinks to do SEO to the exclusivity of all else?

      Drama much? A rather extreme example of SEO for google vs. ... spend 80% of time marketing onesself to become a quasi celebrity.

      He didnt just wake up one day and have a radio show, and a huge facebook/social media presence. It took a$$-loads of hard work to pull all this off. More than 95% of the small business owners would ever be willing to do.... PAY FOR.

      This is a shining example of what an advert agencies wet dream is - but these opportunities are and outcomes are 1 in a million if that.

      Just because other folks dont see what you see doesnt always make them all sub humans and unworthy to engage in "marketing". The incessant put downs and demeaning tones has become kinda tired and boring ...


      I challenge you to quote a put down or demeaning tone that I used in this topic. Find where I even remotely suggested that anyone is sub-human or unworthy to engage in marketing.

      Go on.

      Quote it.

      Read carefully. Every word I wrote on this topic.

      You made the claim, now back it the fu@k up.

      What's that?

      You can't find one?

      I never did (at least until now in response to your false allegation).

      Now, I defy you to find where I have attacked any individual on this site.

      I haven't unless I was provoked or attacked first. Never once.

      But I openly attack ideas - which it's clear that there are a few, albeit a minority, who are unable to handle that sort of thing in an open forum without personalizing it internally. If you profess an idea openly in a public forum, and cannot handle the idea being challenged - or further, cannot defend the idea without becoming emotional, then maybe you should rethink your involvement in a public discussion to begin with.

      Feel free to attack my ideas. I'm a big boy and can handle the debate.

      But if you're going to make it personal, then... well it's generally not a good protocol.
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      • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
        Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

        I challenge you to quote a put down or demeaning tone that I used in this topic. Find where I even remotely suggested that anyone is sub-human or unworthy to engage in marketing.

        Go on.

        Quote it.

        Read carefully. Every word I wrote on this topic.

        You made the claim, now back it the fu@k up.

        What's that?

        You can't find one?

        I never did (at least until now in response to your false allegation).

        Now, I defy you to find where I have attacked any individual on this site.

        I haven't unless I was provoked or attacked first. Never once.

        But I openly attack ideas - which it's clear that there are a few, albeit a minority, who are unable to handle that sort of thing in an open forum without personalizing it internally. If you profess an idea openly in a public forum, and cannot handle the idea being challenged - or further, cannot defend the idea without becoming emotional, then maybe you should rethink your involvement in a public discussion to begin with.

        Feel free to attack my ideas. I'm a big boy and can handle the debate.

        But if you're going to make it personal, then... well it's generally not a good protocol.

        Im certainly glad we didnt have to call 911 for you michael with that "viscous" personal attack I posted. Seriously?

        Im not the first to discuss similar concerns about the tone of the posts you make about us lowly unworthy snake oil salesmen chasing after the "Chicken Sch!tt" peonic scraps left behind by all your chums in the "real business" world.

        Not at all interested in frittering away the time to go back thru all the other condescending gems you tossed our ways over the months, but if youre honest with us and yourself - you know Im not the first to notice it.

        For the SEO folks who swear that SEO is the sole answer to internet marketing...
        Positive .... Uplifting... Helpful ... Not condescending at all.


        Offline consultants really need to understand real business owners, and expand their frame of reference. Pitch a bigger program that involves the entire shooting match. Function as a project leader and outsource. Coordinate the entire effort and do the media blitz. Help position the client as an industry leader. Quit tinkering around with chicken .
        So then if people DONT follow your lead here and have no desire to be a mini advertising agency as you declare as the "real solution" then what we do is just chicken sch!tt? Now that was tremendously uplifting for this forum - thanks for that.

        I know you think you're doing us all a huge favor by even posting, but seriously - not everyone wants to be like you or molded into what you consider an acceptable business person ... can the world really handle another Michael Hiles - Marketing Rockstar? Does it really need one?


        Good luck to you - rip me to shreds with the last word ...
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        • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
          Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

          Im certainly glad we didnt have to call 911 for you michael with that "viscous" personal attack I posted. Seriously?

          Im not the first to discuss similar concerns about the tone of the posts you make about us lowly unworthy snake oil salesmen chasing after the "Chicken Sch!tt" peonic scraps left behind by all your chums in the "real business" world.

          Not at all interested in frittering away the time to go back thru all the other condescending gems you tossed our ways over the months, but if youre honest with us and yourself - you know Im not the first to notice it.



          Positive .... Uplifting... Helpful ... Not condescending at all.




          So then if people DONT follow your lead here and have no desire to be a mini advertising agency as you declare as the "real solution" then what we do is just chicken sch!tt? Now that was tremendously uplifting for this forum - thanks for that.

          I know you think you're doing us all a huge favor by even posting, but seriously - not everyone wants to be like you or molded into what you consider an acceptable business person ... can the world really handle another Michael Hiles - Marketing Rockstar? Does it really need one?


          Good luck to you - rip me to shreds with the last word ...
          The only thing I really need after a "viscous" attack might be some cat litter to absorb the oil up.

          While I am blunt about the idea, suggesting that people expand their widescreen view to raise their income, diversify their offerings, create more value to their clients, help ensure their success and longevity, etc... is an empowering position. I'm not the one promoting a limiting viewpoint.

          In fact, I am saying that there are so many ways to make money, and by not exploring those, a person wanting to be a success in marketing consulting is doing themselves and potentially their client a major disservice.

          The reality is that a lot of folks on Warrior Forum really do equate "Internet Marketing" exclusively with "SEO", when there's really much more. A hell of a lot more. "Internet Marketing" is MARKETING, and the last time I checked, that was still a pretty broad subject. Far more than SEO rankings.

          You don't like that idea? You don't want to hear about "mini agency" approaches? Guess what? Other people actually do want to have these discussions, and we'll continue having them.

          So, you don't like your ideas challenged.

          Fine. None of us really do.

          It makes us uncomfortable and we're forced to actually think, defend our beliefs.

          You don't agree with me, that's cool.

          No skin off my nose.

          Someone thinks differently than I do.

          There's a few others who don't like what I have to say as well. Big deal. It's really okay. This isn't high school and I'm not running for class president.... "LIKE ME LIKE ME LIKE ME!!!"


          Funny thing about "Rockstars"... they put themselves out there in front of people, and don't cry over the critics. Kind of like Eric Deters. A bunch of people think he's a blowhard jerkoff too. Even a particular judge sitting on the bench hates his guts.

          I am quite certain that he doesn't much care, and will continue to do what he does best: make money.



          Oh... and @RussSells

          I distinctly remember one of Schefren's 11 steps in his Maven Matrix was to present a polarizing point of view.

          Right?



          And both Rich and Jay Abraham didn't necessarily have all that much good to say about SEO in there either.

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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

      This is a shining example of what an advert agencies wet dream is - but these opportunities are and outcomes are 1 in a million if that..

      Actually the media coverage is more easy to get than you might think.

      I've done it so many times for so many different people it becomes almost boring in its predictability.

      What many people don't realize though is that it can be quite difficult to get that media coverage to convert to real revenue.

      There's always a return for effort involved and free publicity from coverage in the media can be hugely over rated.

      Getting a client covered is a great way to impress them as long as they don't start asking "how much business did I actually do as a result of that coverage?"

      The biggest return for many businesses is to leverage the fact that you've been in the media to build some kind of image.

      Having done both for businesses I would say local search has around 50 times the return on effort that getting media exposure has although that varies depending on the type of coverage.

      Newspaper often gets the best response but often takes more effort to get less coverage.

      Talk back radio can be a good response and it is easy to get lots of coverage.

      Local television is often a very poor response or no response at all.

      If you can get covered in some kind of niche publication that targets the niche you also target and you get covered in the right way that can get you a huge response.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Profile picture of the author joshril
    Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


    For those who are looking for examples of success stories for local marketing that involve all areas of internet success - I strongly suggest looking at his entire effort.

    For the SEO folks who swear that SEO is the sole answer to internet marketing... he doesn't even show up on the home pages of the top keyword searches.



    He actually doesn't even give a crap about SEO.
    Thanks for sharing, Michael. Great story!

    Something else to point out is quite often when quality content is being put out online, even without an intent to rank in the search engines, solid search rankings and traffic tend to happen on their own...

    Surely that's not what Google intended?
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Thanks for sharing, Michael. While I wasn't able to pull up Eric Deters' site due to some database error, I have no doubt that he has leveraged social and local media to create near-celebrity status for himself.

    Great post and reminder that SEO is not the be-all and end-all of offline consulting. In many cases, SEO may not help that much, especially when dealing with industries and fields where prospects don't really search much in Google, and this generally holds true for B2B businesses.

    There are so many other ways to generate additional exposure for businesses and make them profitable besides just SEO, and as internet marketers sometimes it is easy to develop 'tunnel vision' about the kinds of solutions that we can offer. This is a great reminder that we need to think out of the box a little bit and contemplate all the different ways and avenues through which we can help an offline client.

    Paul
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