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Unread 12th Dec 2011, 08:55 PM   #501
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I don't think you should worry if it is an apartment or duplex, fourplex etc. or single family home. Pay attention to the neighborhood. If it is the hood, forget it. If it is middle income to upper income, then mail to them.

Some apartments are quite exclusive and it takes a decent income to afford them. Those are people you want to get your coupon as they will by likely to use them.

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Unread 12th Dec 2011, 09:04 PM   #502
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Wow, so much useful information on this thread!
thanks alot!
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Unread 12th Dec 2011, 10:50 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by SpiralX View Post

Hey Tim,
Try imo.im for a way to connect with Skype, online, without Skype software. I just added Bob on Skype through imo. Should be fine for groups
How do you get a MSN user name and password for that page?

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 12:13 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by rideotm View Post

Yeah, Jrob, they definately have the WOW factor...In one of my several daily mind wanderings, I kinda thought about walking into a business with a mailbox and set it down for the owner to open...stuff it with letters, flyers and the billboard...maybe a bit over the top but they would remember it for a while
I like that idea!!

Definitely different and will get attention.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 12:25 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by rht999999 View Post

Well nice steps for making money,but not sure that will ork 4 me.
It definitely will NOT work for you. You will have to work it to get anything out of it. If you want to do it, and put in the effort and follow Bob's direction, then it will work in your area. But you will have to do the work in order to get it to pay off.

First you have to start with a positive attitude. It is pretty well proven that if you think you can you are right, and if you think you can't you are right. It is all about the way you believe in it.

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 12:48 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by timpears View Post

How do you get a MSN user name and password for that page?
Hi Tim,
Just sign up to a regular account at Skype, then use that page to login and access it. I was on it today. Only am not sure if it is possible to hear voice, but otherwise, the group chat worked fine.

*
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 01:00 AM   #507
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@rht999 - Untill you've met a couple ValPak employees I wouldn't rule out your ability to have success with this system. It sells itself imo.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:37 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

@rht999 - Untill you've met a couple ValPak employees I wouldn't rule out your ability to have success with this system. It sells itself imo.
Hi Red,

Your comment mystified me. What would meeting ValPak employees do?

Thanks,
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 08:54 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by Karen View Post

Hi Red,

Your comment mystified me. What would meeting ValPak employees do?

Thanks,
Karen
Ok, my third attempt to get my response to stick without mine disappearing in thin air, lol.

I hate to think that a company like valpak or any other that sells their coupon program to biz would be doing something I am about to say.

Question is; does the salesrep know for a fact when they are piching someone lets say a plumber, that there are already another 3 plumbers in there?IF they knew, would that affect WHAT they would be saying to plumber number 4 in order to sell them?

IF that is true, that would be a huge issue.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 10:42 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by rht999999 View Post

Well nice steps for making money,but not sure that will ork 4 me.
Since you cannot communicate well in a simple, single sentence, this is definitely NOT for you.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 11:41 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by RRG View Post

Since you cannot communicate well in a simple, single sentence, this is definitely NOT for you.
I think you nailed that one , Eva
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 01:46 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by Vikuna2009+ View Post

Ok,

Question is; does the salesrep know for a fact when they are piching someone lets say a plumber, that there are already another 3 plumbers in there?IF they knew, would that affect WHAT they would be saying to plumber number 4 in order to sell them?

IF that is true, that would be a huge issue.
Actually, I don't think that matters. Whenever I get a ValPak it always has multiple coupons for similar businesses.

The last one I received had about four for flooring contractors and at least three pizza parlors.

In fact, there were probably more "duplicate" offers but those are the ones that stood out.

AFAIK as I know, exclusivity is not a ValPak selling point.... but it could very well be for anyone using Bob's program.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 02:02 PM   #513
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When I got a Valpak envelope it just went in the trash. I didn't bother to even open it. I am not really motivated by coupons. But when I get a card in the mail, I can't help but see it. Even if I toss it in the trash, I will glance at it. If there is something that catches my eye, I will look at it longer.

That, I think is the big selling point with this program. You can't totally ignore it. You will be drawn to at least glance at the offers. And then, out of the 10,000 pieces, you only need a hundred or two to use a coupon to make it well worth the investment in an ad. Don't you think that you can catch a couple hundred peoples attention with your coupon?

Truth is, my wife has given me two or three post cards that caught her attention in the past week. With the large size of this one, and the array of collors, this will catch more peoples attention I believe. When ever she shows me an envelope and asks 'what is this' I tell her advertising and it goes directly in the trash.

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 02:14 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by timpears View Post

You can't totally ignore it. You will be drawn to at least glance at the offers.
I think this is true and one of the strengths of this program.

Originally Posted by timpears View Post

When ever she shows me an envelope and asks 'what is this' I tell her advertising and it goes directly in the trash.
For the most part same here. I will open it though if it has a picture or gives me some other inkling that it contains something I'm interested in.

For example, I like to scuba dive. An easy way to get me to open an envelope is to put a little stamp of a scuba diver on it.

As for other mail (like from banks, insurance companies etc), straight to the trash.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 02:38 PM   #515
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Attention Anyone who is a premium WSO buyer... we have the first live teleseminar on thursday at 9PM EST (fully downloadable if you can't make it).


If you don't have the password to or info to get in, email me at itsbobross [at] gmail and I'll get you the info right away (please provide paypal transaction ID).

Get all your questions ready that you want me to expand on. I'll be going over objection handling, pitching, closing, and all sorts of stuff. Thanks!

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 03:03 PM   #516
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Filling in the Skype group with my prospecting success today, sunk 2 out of 6 deals with 1 maybe and a no-show from the boss...which I think will bite once I meet with him!

A great day and I'm pumped that I officially broke the ice!

Professional graphic designer and entrepreneurial Jedi Knight in training...check out my portfolio
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 03:41 PM   #517
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I was just in the War Room and I saw this lead capture for businesses. Not much information but I downloaded it anyway. No opt in and if you don't think it is worth using, then nothing lost but a couple minutes. Check it out if you are interested:
http://www.warriorforum.com/war-room...-no-optin.html

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 04:42 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by greggorio28 View Post

Filling in the Skype group with my prospecting success today, sunk 2 out of 6 deals with 1 maybe and a no-show from the boss...which I think will bite once I meet with him!

A great day and I'm pumped that I officially broke the ice!
Sooooooo good to hear Gregg!



also.... just as a quick reminder....

>> Price of the premium WSO is going to $47 effective 12pm, Wednesday, December 14th. <<
I am CLOSING down this WSO Thursday, Dec 22nd at 6pm. Once it's gone,
it's gone forever!

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 04:45 PM   #519
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I had mentioned before that I was going to reserve a spot for a non-profit in each mailing. After much thought, what non-profit would have an offer that would appeal to lots of people. So, I sent a short email off to the "Zoo". If I don't hear from them will give a call on Thursday.

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 05:32 PM   #520
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greggorio28- what price points were the sales at?
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 05:54 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by rolltide View Post

greggorio28- what price points were the sales at?

It went like this:

I created a sense of urgency with the auto shop owner by telling him that he can certainly take some time to think it over...but I will be stopping by at least 3 more places today including an auto shop and its first come/first served. That lit a fire under his a$$!

Then, I told him that since he was one of the first customers to reserve a spot...that he had his top pick and that I would cut a 25% discount if he chose the BIG space at the top left. Well, he jumped right on it! Funny enough the Chinese place who was very interested and asked me a hundred questions....ended up wanting a small 3x2 space just to "test it out". Thats fine ya know...somebody would have had to fill that space eventually.

So, the auto shop cut me a check for half today, and agreed to a cost of $525 I believe (which is $695 at full price). The Chinese place agreed to a cost of $400 for the small ad ($525 normally) and said they will confirm and pay me by the weekend. Now...I was extremely anxious today and just wanted to make some sales.....so I dipped down a bit....but nowhere near a price that I will regret. Today gave me the confidence to ask for full price in the future....and ONLY cut a 25% discount if they haggle on cost. I slightly inflated the prices to the point where I will still walk away happy with a 25% discount even if I did that for ALL of them....which I wont

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:02 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by greggorio28 View Post

It went like this:

I created a sense of urgency with the auto shop owner by telling him that he can certainly take some time to think it over...but I will be stopping by at least 3 more places today including an auto shop and its first come/first served. That lit a fire under his a$$!

Then, I told him that since he was one of the first customers to reserve a spot...that he had his top pick and that I would cut a 25% discount if he chose the BIG space at the top left. Well, he jumped right on it! Funny enough the Chinese place who was very interested and asked me a hundred questions....ended up wanting a small 3x2 space just to "test it out". Thats fine ya know...somebody would have had to fill that space eventually.

So, the auto shop cut me a check for half today, and agreed to a cost of $525 I believe (which is $695 at full price). The Chinese place agreed to a cost of $400 for the small ad ($525 normally) and said they will confirm and pay me by the weekend. Now...I was extremely anxious today and just wanted to make some sales.....so I dipped down a bit....but nowhere near a price that I will regret. Today gave me the confidence to ask for full price in the future....and ONLY cut a 25% discount if they haggle on cost. I slightly inflated the prices to the point where I will still walk away happy with a 25% discount even if I did that for ALL of them....which I wont

Awesome man. I was wanting to establish a DBA for a marketing style firm/company. I currently have a DBA for my SEO company.

Did you establish a new DBA before getting clients? If not, did any of the clients ask you about your business etc?
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:10 PM   #523
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Good question Jrod....and something that's been on my mind all week. I am operating/branding this mailer with its own unique name: The Value Titan, but creating it under my freelance design business DBA name: Y3k Designs, to give me credibility and trust.

I am really creating a brand with the mailer and want the name to become a household item in my local area and be around for many years. Heck it has the potential to become a full fledged national trademark if I ever got to that point...kinda like ValPack. But for now....it works just fine.

I figured this campaign will just go hand in hand with my sole proprietorship for now...but being that this has the potential to BLOW UP in 2012 and involves many different businesses....that I should consider forming an LLC to avoid any personal liability if that should ever happen for some crazy reason.

What do you think?

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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:22 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by greggorio28 View Post

Good question Jrod....and something that's been on my mind all week. I am operating/branding this mailer with its own unique name: The Value Titan, but creating it under my freelance design business DBA name: Y3k Designs, to give me credibility and trust.

I am really creating a brand with the mailer and want the name to become a household item in my local area and be around for many years. Heck it has the potential to become a full fledged national trademark if I ever got to that point...kinda like ValPack. But for now....it works just fine.

I figured this campaign will just go hand in hand with my sole proprietorship for now...but being that this has the potential to BLOW UP in 2012 and involves many different businesses....that I should consider forming an LLC to avoid any personal liability if that should ever happen for some crazy reason.

What do you think?
I'm planning on branding my card too. I just wanted to get an idea of what people are doing as far as branding goes.

I think if anyone asks about my business, I'll give them my business card (SEO/web devlopment related) and say something like "We are a small internet marketing company that is currently focusing on a few inbound marketing techniques for our clients." Hopefull this will create some curiosity with the small business owner and strike up other internet marketing conversation. That way we can also pitch to our current clients as well.

I think the LLC would be a smart move. I have been planning to do it myself. I think I'll do it the first thing in January. It's smart to have that protection.

Also, I've read that you had some laminated sheet with you. Did you make it on your own or have a print shop print it for you?

I really want to hit the streets this afternoon but want to look professional at the same time.

One last question, sorry. What did you find to be the easiest, cold calling or walking in?

Thanks,

Jerry
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:22 PM   #525
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Premium buyers having access to buyers-only discussion / teleseminars etc might be a good selling point to picking up this WSO before the deadline(s) which are approaching - if those availabilities could be outlined and clarified...also if we could learn about how many users have purchased (to determined how many would be in the program)...

thanks.

Jamie
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:24 PM   #526
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Any Aussies know if this "every door direct" post office service or something similar is available in Australia?

Can this be done without it?
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:31 PM   #527
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AussieT
Check out post #105 on the main wso thread.

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-income-3.html

"To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world."
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:32 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by AussieT View Post

Any Aussies know if this "every door direct" post office service or something similar is available in Australia?

Can this be done without it?

If you check out the WSO thread, I believe Karen posted information about an Australian equivalent of EDDM(as well as a few other countries that she dug up after people requested information).
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:34 PM   #529
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jamiecoyne

see post #521, it will answer part of your question

"To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world."
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 06:48 PM   #530
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Thanks. Just did a "search this thread" and found your answers to my questions.
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 10:46 PM   #531
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anyone know if Australia Post allow UV coating on both sides?

Originally Posted by bob ross View Post

Don: I'm totally for mobile integration but at this point I'm focusing on straight print. I'm trying to get the offers in front of people without anything possibly hindering it.

I really should be adding we codes though for sure. Funny that an old print veteran is suggesting new technology to a young "print" guy!

Direct mail is still considered a really safe, proven medium for a lot of the owners I've spoken with, where mobile and web stuff is often still tough for them to understand the value. It's just easier to sell and produce imo. Promoting an online coupon directory would certainly be effective via this card though as you mention.

I use 9x12 because its so extremely noticeable and "in their face". Funny thing is, ONLY big postcards qualify for the super low postage. It's actually over ten cents cheaper to mail the giant ones! More space equals more ads and more money at lower postage using this program.


Eva: thanks. I print everything on 14pt cardstock with UV coating on both sides. It feels like a big placemat actually. Normally you can only use UV on one side in the mail, but via this postal program you can use it on both!
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Unread 13th Dec 2011, 11:29 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by CarrieD View Post

I'm so intrigued with this thread. Thanks for sharing this with us, Bob.

I contacted a local printer about printing one postcard for me so that I can talk to businesses with a sample. He is able to print one 9x12 postcard digitally, 14 pt heavy cardstock, glossy, 4 color, for less than $2. I will supply him press ready artwork.

I'm not a designer so now the hard part will be to come up with sample ads and layout so that the postcard will be appealing to the eye.
It would be great if we could share layouts and samples. Anyone interested?
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 12:19 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by AussieT View Post

anyone know if Australia Post allow UV coating on both sides?
Probably it would be best to just ask them. A quick phone call should get your answer for you I would think.

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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:05 AM   #534
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I've been following this thread post by post since it started, and I really want to implement, or get a huge dent in preparing to do something like this over my next break, or even in the town around my campus.

The only hesitation I have is that I'm 19 years old, and a little soft-spoken, So i feel like going into these places, I wouldnt get taken seriously. Even this summer, I worked in a restaurant and I always got customers saying "Oh honey what are you, 15? and you already have a waitressing job? Good for You!"....then i would have to explain I'm a little older than that...
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:39 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by timpears View Post

Probably it would be best to just ask them. A quick phone call should get your answer for you I would think.
Will do tomorrow but its 6:45pm here and they are shut and this WSo goes up soon so trying to get a few answers before it does.

Been reading this thread all day in bed as I am sick
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 03:00 AM   #536
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Has anyone researched whether this is doable in Australia?

Will Australia Post deilver this size postcard?

Has anyone found an Australian printer that will print using the recommended specs and at a reasonable price?
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 07:40 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by roshanivahora View Post

Its a great work for sharing by your. But posting card marketing its a chodu scheme.

huh??



So..... anyways kids, what do you think of the website I launched last night?? Took me about 5 hours using Yahoo site building tools and Im very happy with it so far. I'm all about simplicity

The Value Titan

Professional graphic designer and entrepreneurial Jedi Knight in training...check out my portfolio
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 07:49 AM   #538
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Looks very good, Greg...I do like the about us page. One thing you migh consider is maybe enlarge the 88 cents, $1,25, and the 7 cents (or than whole underlined sentence) and put them in red...3 very pertinent points of your biz

Smoking cigarettes and watching Captain Kangaroo
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 09:28 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Vikuna2009+ View Post

Ok, my third attempt to get my response to stick without mine disappearing in thin air, lol.

I hate to think that a company like valpak or any other that sells their coupon program to biz would be doing something I am about to say.

Question is; does the salesrep know for a fact when they are piching someone lets say a plumber, that there are already another 3 plumbers in there?IF they knew, would that affect WHAT they would be saying to plumber number 4 in order to sell them?

IF that is true, that would be a huge issue.
Of course the reps know that there will be competing businesses in the same envelope. ValPak sells massive mailings for a reasonable price. Most businesses that I know get a decent response from using them, enough so they keep on doing it.

Exclusivity is a HUGE issue in this offering.
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 09:30 AM   #540
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Spent the last two days reading this forum. Bought the WSO yesterday. Finished setting up the DBA, business cards, website, google voice and started on Pitch for my salesperson. I'm running full speed ahead on this one.

My question, has anyone hired a salesperson for this yet? I was wondering what rate to offer. I was considering offering $50 per signup. So that's $800 for the salesman for 16 signups. Does this seem too high, too low? I've never tried hiring a salesperson before. And I have no experience in sales to do this myself. I feel confortable enough re-soliciting after their first purchase though.

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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 09:33 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by greggorio28 View Post

huh??



So..... anyways kids, what do you think of the website I launched last night?? Took me about 5 hours using Yahoo site building tools and Im very happy with it so far. I'm all about simplicity

The Value Titan
Nice Start. I like how it differentiates your mailer from others. That needs to happen early to succeed in the sales process since everyone automatically jumps to something they think is similar and dismiss based on that.

Seb

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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 10:09 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Katie C View Post

I've been following this thread post by post since it started, and I really want to implement, or get a huge dent in preparing to do something like this over my next break, or even in the town around my campus.

The only hesitation I have is that I'm 19 years old, and a little soft-spoken, So i feel like going into these places, I wouldnt get taken seriously. Even this summer, I worked in a restaurant and I always got customers saying "Oh honey what are you, 15? and you already have a waitressing job? Good for You!"....then i would have to explain I'm a little older than that...
Hi Katie, thanks for following the thread!

The only thing that may stop you would be your self confidence in that case. What you could definitely do to get around that easier is to cold call or email prospects rather than be nervous walking in cold. If you get people interested via calling or emailing them, they have no clue what you look like or how old you are!

You can definitely do this.

Originally Posted by AussieT View Post

Has anyone researched whether this is doable in Australia?

Will Australia Post deilver this size postcard?

Has anyone found an Australian printer that will print using the recommended specs and at a reasonable price?
I really wish I had an answer for you right away but I've been so swamped I can't help out with that right at the moment. I'm positive it will work though we just have to find the right resources for you.


Originally Posted by greggorio28 View Post




So..... anyways kids, what do you think of the website I launched last night?? Took me about 5 hours using Yahoo site building tools and Im very happy with it so far. I'm all about simplicity

The Value Titan
I think it's awesome!

Originally Posted by jgsketch View Post

Spent the last two days reading this forum. Bought the WSO yesterday. Finished setting up the DBA, business cards, website, google voice and started on Pitch for my salesperson. I'm running full speed ahead on this one.

My question, has anyone hired a salesperson for this yet? I was wondering what rate to offer. I was considering offering $50 per signup. So that's $800 for the salesman for 16 signups. Does this seem too high, too low? I've never tried hiring a salesperson before. And I have no experience in sales to do this myself. I feel confortable enough re-soliciting after their first purchase though.
Thanks a ton for investing in the premium WSO. In tomorrows teleseminar, I'm going to talk in detail about how to pay salespeople. I've been in direct sales since I was 21 (I'm 30 now) and have a lot of experience in commission sales/hiring/training/retaining people. I'm going to go over exactly how to pay these guys so that it's profitable for all of us.

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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 10:20 AM   #543
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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How do I give a "Thanks" to a post?
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:17 PM   #544
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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Originally Posted by JackieGold View Post

How do I give a "Thanks" to a post?
You have to be signed in. Sinceyour post count is low, don't remember if you can give thanks at that level but you might, Eva

Button is at the lower right in black.

Last edited on 14th Dec 2011 at 01:18 PM. Reason: xtra
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:19 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by Katie C View Post

I've been following this thread post by post since it started, and I really want to implement, or get a huge dent in preparing to do something like this over my next break, or even in the town around my campus.

The only hesitation I have is that I'm 19 years old, and a little soft-spoken, So i feel like going into these places, I wouldnt get taken seriously. Even this summer, I worked in a restaurant and I always got customers saying "Oh honey what are you, 15? and you already have a waitressing job? Good for You!"....then i would have to explain I'm a little older than that...

Like Bob said, if you're confident, I don't think your age would be held against you. If it helps you feel more comfortable, you don't have to tell them that you own the business, you could just let them think you are a sales person that's been hired on.
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:26 PM   #546
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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absolutely age doesn't matter in business , as far as you have confidence in yourself ..

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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:36 PM   #547
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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thanks for the tips everyone.

I feel like my visuals and information will be strong if everything goes as planned. I probably will have to practice a bit so I get my confidence up there to match it
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 01:47 PM   #548
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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My question, has anyone hired a salesperson for this yet? I was wondering what rate to offer. I was considering offering $50 per signup. So that's $800 for the salesman for 16 signups. Does this seem too high, too low? I've never tried hiring a salesperson before. And I have no experience in sales to do this myself. I feel confortable enough re-soliciting after their first purchase though.[/QUOTE]

I am paying mine 10% of all collected, plus a $400 bonus if the card is filled in four days. I am a pretty good salesman, so I could sell it myself, but I am so busy at work that I cannot take any time off for several weeks, so I will just raise the prices on the ads to pay his commission. I told him that as soon as he fills this card, hopefully within the next 4 or 5 days, he can immediately start selling on another one.

Anyway, he seems good to go with the 10%, so if he does what I tell him and show him he can make $1200 in a few days, pretty good money for easy sales.
I would rather use % than a set dollar amount per sale, because I am going to allow him to price drop a certain amount to close if needed, so that should hit his wallet as well as mine.
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 02:11 PM   #549
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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Guys I have a problem. I named my company "InFusion" then saw that most of the company names on here are associated with value/savings/discounts.

Do I need my company name to be something like "The Value Titan" or "Captain Coupon" etc?

Or do you think InFusion would work? It looks nice on my website and everything else but if I need to change it I will. This is literally the first thing I did but the last thing I need to get settled before going out.
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Unread 14th Dec 2011, 02:22 PM   #550
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Re: Make $5000 per month and be a hero.
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turbojarhead1, Thanks for that. That makes sense to offer a percentage to a salesperson rather than a fixed amount. I might go with that.

RedShifted, I don't think you have to have a DBA as your offer/product. For example, my DBA is the name of my company which will offer this Mailer along with many other services. I will brand the Mailer on it's own site while making it clear that it's owned by my company that offers other marketing products. My DBA name will not appear on the mailer, only on the mailer website.

I think this is the best way to go if you offer multiple services under "Infusion". It will make more sense later on when you try to offer other services to your clients once a proven track record and trust is formed.

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