Best Way to Tell a Client That They're a Pain in Your @ss?

by Matt B

Posted: 13 years ago 24 replies

OFFLINE MARKETING

So, I'm dealing with this client on a website design deal. I'm outsourcing the the custom wordpress design to best suit his needs/expectations.

He has a ton of ideas and "visions" of what he wants his website to be. The biggest problem is that he keeps changing his mind back and forth. One day, he wants a site that looks like "this". So, I get a mock-up from the designer, and then he wants a completely different layout and design. I get another mock-up done, and don't hear from him for a week. Then he wants another totally different design & layout.

At this point, I'm sure he's getting frustrated with the process, I'm definitely frustrated with the process, and I'm sure the designer is getting pissed off too. I've put in almost 6 hours of "on-site" consultation time at his establishment to try and get a good idea of exactly what he's looking for, in addition to the time I've put in from home. Honestly, I have some work for other clients that I could be concentrating on and should also be doing more prospecting for new clients. But this guy is draining my time.

Looking back on it, I should have realized that he would be a problem client from the get go. He had told me about other problems he had with other website designers in the past. Some had not been able to produce a site that met his needs, some he had worked with and never heard back from, etc. It's my fault for not picking up on that and realizing what I was getting myself into. I was probably a little "over-anxious" to earn his business, but I wanted the deal, and he's also friends with other business owners in the area and I was hoping to grab some referrals too.

So, my question is what is the best way to tell this guy that it's just not going to work out? I was thinking of saying something to the effect of:

"Hey, I just don't think it's going to work out on this website. I've tried my best to get a good idea of exactly what your looking for and relay those thoughts and ideas to our designer, but I know we're just not producing a site that meets your needs and expectations. I don't want to drag the process out and just keep 'spinning out wheels'. I think it would be best if I just refunded $XXX amount of your initial payment, and we shook hands and parted ways."

Not that I want to get into a contract dispute, but I don't want to refund 100% of his money. Technically, the contract I had him sign said 1.5 hours of consultation time, and no more than 3 "re-do's" of his website. It's also in the contract that I'd charge $60/hr past that. He's on his 3rd re-do and he's way past 1.5 hours of consultation time. He paid me 60% upfront, and the other 40% was to be paid upon website completion.

What do you guys think of this situation? I know there has to be some similar stories out there.

#@ss #client #pain

Kunle Olomofe

13 years ago

What you need is damage control at this point...

1. What I normally do before I sign a deal is ask clients to browse the web and show me a site they like and what they like about it. If they can't find one or don't have the time I browse myself and look for ideas that may give them goose bumps based on their initial descriptions of what they want. This usually helps to narrow down the "design itch" many clients have.

2. If I made the mistake and didn't first get their consent on a similar design out there and it's becoming a war of "ideas", I take that step immediately. It usually clears the air.

3. If that doesn't work and they don't like any of your designs then really the best thing is at that point to part ways based on your contractual agreement. I've had one client that told me he LOOOOOOVED one site I built he could have made love to it, only to later them tell me it wasn't converting and that he wasn't too happy with the site anymore (after 3 days of advertising and before he had made his balance payment). I simply offered to refund him in full and let him know I wouldn't have the time to help him. I of course also reminded him he loved the site and told him 3 days was not enough time to judge anything conversion-wise. Long story short, he refused the refund and made the balance payment a few days later. We don't work together anymore though. I sacked him at that point. With any luck he's not losing any sleep over it

If every attempt to make this work for you fails, and you can afford to pay him back in full do so. If not, pay him what will compensate him and move on.

There will always be horror stories with clients down the line, it seems to be the curse of the web design consultant

Cheers and good luck,

Kunle

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Matt B

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kunle Olomofe

Cheers and good luck,

Kunle

Thanks Kunle- I'm leaning towards "cutting-ties" at this point rather than continuing to beat a dead horse.

Originally Posted by Suthan M

I think its best to man up and tell him to the face that if he continues to change his plans and 'visions' after the mock- ups are done according to his previous ideas, then it will cost him in the future. Tell him, frankly that there's a cost for those changes and you can only do so many revisions for free. (You win)

I am sure as a biz owner he will understand that aspect. After that allow one final minor revision (he wins) and tell him any changes after this will cost him.

In this scenario, both of you win, and get to enjoy both of you want. You, his business and he gets his darn website that he keeps changing all the time :p

Thanks Suthan- I did point out to him that the contract says 3 "re-do's" of the design. He's on his 3rd re-do now, and we're no where close to what his "vision" is. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by kaniganj

Heh heh heh.

You've run into what's known as a High-I or High-D in the DISC Profile, which predicts behavior. Both these types change their minds quickly.

Not sure if you missed this comic.

Really, this client isn't a "pain in the a$$." You didn't tell them up front that they couldn't behave this way--and these two types naturally behave this way!

That comic describes exactly what I'm going through!

I didn't mention in my first post that he has his office assistant involved in the process. She throws her 2 cents into everything we come up with, and she also designs lame-ass examples in paint.

I almost peed my pants laughing at that comic. As soon as I was finished reading it, guess who called asking about the site? Yup, he called me twice yesterday and already once today after I told him yesterday that I would get back to him once I received another revision from the designer.

My plan at this point is this-

1. Receive a revision back from the designer today and send it to the client.
2. He will call me 2.1 seconds after I hit send and tell me he doesn't like it.
3. I tell client that it's not going to work out and we need to see other people. :p

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Suthan M 13 years ago

I think its best to man up and tell him to the face that if he continues to change his plans and 'visions' after the mock- ups are done according to his previous ideas, then it will cost him in the future. Tell him, frankly that there's a cost for those changes and you can only do so many revisions for free. (You win)

I am sure as a biz owner he will understand that aspect. After that allow one final minor revision (he wins) and tell him any changes after this will cost him.

In this scenario, both of you win, and get to enjoy both of you want. You, his business and he gets his darn website that he keeps changing all the time :p
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debml 13 years ago

I'm inclined to think cutting your losses now is the best course of action exactly as you stated in your post. Even if you could get him to commit to a design now, how much effort will you have to put toward maintaining his site on an ongoing basis, and will it be worth it?
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Jason Kanigan

13 years ago

Heh heh heh.

You've run into what's known as a High-I or High-D in the DISC Profile, which predicts behavior. Both these types change their minds quickly.

What you need to start doing in your sales discussions, and in your contracts, is this:

LIMIT the number of revision "rounds" to a specific number. I typically use three.

That way the client can't do this to you. They can't dial you up at 2AM with their latest "brainstorm." They can't bring in their mother, their kids' music teacher, or their family dog into the design process.

Not sure if you missed this comic.

Really, this client isn't a "pain in the a$$." You didn't tell them up front that they couldn't behave this way--and these two types naturally behave this way!

In this case, explain to your client that you know it's their natural inclination to come up with ideas, and want to broadcast them. However, they hired you to make the site.

You'd like to continue, but to do so there has to be a clarification of the rules.

You are interested in their input, but if there are no limits the project will never get done.

So as a compromise, you're willing to let them have three revision "rounds."

If this doesn't work for them, then you can shake hands and they can have their money back.

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Kunle Olomofe

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kaniganj

What you need to start doing in your sales discussions, and in your contracts, is this:

LIMIT the number of revision "rounds" to a specific number. I typically use three.

That way the client can't do this to you. They can't dial you up at 2AM with their latest "brainstorm." They can't bring in their mother, their kids' music teacher, or their family dog into the design process.

Really, this client isn't a "pain in the a$$." You didn't tell them up front that they couldn't behave this way--and these two types naturally behave this way!

Actually he did tell them and get it in the contract. This one just seems like a bad relationship waiting to happen no matter what pre-warnings you give them.

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Jason Kanigan

13 years ago

Kunle, you're right. I missed that part...too many windows open and multi-tasking.

What is interesting is the client's sharing of all the problems he's had with previous designers. Those should have been warning bells. The OP did some good questioning and listening by noticing this.

I'll change my "what to get out of this thread" to this:

YOU, since you're the one selling, always have the final say. You always can say No to any prospect who wants to become a client. Even though someone may be waving money under your nose...you don't have to accept it. "Your best sale is the one you didn't make."

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Matt B

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kaniganj

"Your best sale is the one you didn't make."

You hit the nail on the head. We used to say that all the time in the car business, and it's so true in this case. I noticed the warning signs from the get go and still choose to proceed, so there is a lot of blame on me. He's unrealistic, but I choose to do business with someone who's unrealistic. My bad. :rolleyes:

I'm ready to chalk this up as a learning experience.

I also want to sever ties as best as possible to avoid any negative word of mouth. I'm hoping that he can respect my decision and look at it as me doing the right thing rather than just "giving up" on him.

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David Miller

13 years ago

I wouldn't worry much about negative word of mouth, I have a feeling this guy does this in some aspect with all of his vendors, and most of all his advertising vendors.....I think we've all been down this road.

You could be making money with clients that RESPECT your skills and that's really the bottom line with people like this. They truly believe that only they can come up with the right idea for a project.

If you don't dump this guy now, you're going to be living with this forever. If you think getting things up and running is a pain, just wait until it's time for support!

DUMP HIS ASS and move on sir!

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Matt B

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

If you don't dump this guy now, you're going to be living with this forever. If you think getting things up and running is a pain, just wait until it's time for support!

DUMP HIS ASS and move on sir!

I think you're exactly right Dave. This is all over the homepage design/layout, we haven't begun the secondary pages and content integration yet. Torture-session!

Originally Posted by BrashImpact

Also if you find a client talking about past problems over and over... I have one suggestion RUN as FAST as YOU CAN! These types will run you ragged and drive you crazy... It took me a lot of years to Avoid this type of scenario at all costs... It cost way to much time, energy, money and lost revenue in the long run.

Wishing you all the success my friend...
Robert

Thanks Robert- It was my fault ignoring his previous horror stories. For some reason I thought it would be different this time around. :rolleyes: This has definitely been a learning experience for me. I will pick and choose my clients more carefully in the future.

Originally Posted by kaniganj

So, Matt...how did it turn out?

Hey Jason- I spent most of my afternoon yesterday meeting with one of my newer clients. One who actually appreciates what I can do for him.

I'm still waiting on the latest revision from the designer for this nightmare client.

His office assistant called me yesterday after he stepped out for lunch, and she was telling me how he is always like this and how hard it is to work with him. I felt like I was a therapist for 15 minutes. Then she starts throwing more ideas at me, "I think he'd like this" and "maybe if it were like this" and "If we used this picture". I told her that the designer was working with what we sent him, and he should have something back in the next day or two.

When I send it to the client and he replies back with a bunch of revision requests I'm going to tell him that this is the third re-do and I'm going to start charging $60/hr according to the contract that he signed. At that point the ball will be in his court, either he pays a premium for revisions, or he chooses to back out. I hope he chooses the latter.

Originally Posted by Witty

What happened to the customer is always right, hehe.

Lol- Must have been a customer that came up with that!

Want your way right away? Have Burger King build your website! :p

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

Business wise it's good for you to finish that job. Personally I'd refund a % of money and never look back. These morons can be time and focus consuming, and I have other things to take care of.

Hey Fernando- Like you said, it would be nice to finish the job. I'd really like to finish it and have him be satisfied, but I just don't see us getting to that point.

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Rus Sells 13 years ago

I agree, just man up and tell this guy as gently as possible something like this.

When we first met you conveyed that you've had problems in the past with other web designers and that some of them didn't even bother to get back with you.

Let me explain why I think this has happened to you and why its actually not good in regards to furthering the development of you online presence.

You keep changing your mind, going back and forth and to be frank its very frustrating for me and the designers. This is just unacceptable, our goal is obviously to deliver you a great web site that turns your visitors into paying customers, but we are never going to get there if things continue down the path they are going now.

Here's what I purpose to remedy this situation....

Then allow him one final FREE revision, then after that any revisions are based on no more then 3 mock ups, and if he needs any further revisions he has to pay X for each one after his last free one.

If you are at the point of just getting rid of him then its no sweat off your back if he tells you to bugger off.

If he agrees you've reset the ground rules for the relationship and then its up to you ensure that YOU abide by them so he'll also abide by them.
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prostarprofitsdotcom 13 years ago

Fire them as a client
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biffula 13 years ago

The key to clients like that is to handle it before you ever take them on as clients. Handle it like a construction contractors do. Have a contract upfront. In that contract spell out change order costs. You state you will provide them a website based on their initial desires. You might give them 5, 10 or so free changes, but keep track of them and make sure the client knows where the tally sheet stands every time they make a change. After they reach their 5 free changes they have to pay an amount, regardless of how 'small' they change may be. And you want to make it sting. Set a minimum and tell them that it is an upfront cost every time they make a change. That cuts that nonsense out quickly. If the client isn't willing to go for it, then don't take them on as a client. Some business is not worth having, no matter how desperate you are. Doesn't help you with your current client, but that's how I handle things and it weeds those high maintenance types out from the get go.
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- BrashImpact 13 years ago
  
  Matt,
  I wanted to point something out that i think was overlooked here and at the same time will help you in the future...
  
  Positioning - There is a huge difference IMHO between a marketer site and a web design site by a web designer. By taking the time and using the verbology to position yourself in front of the client as the expert you can guide 90% of the discussion for work at hand.
  
  By this I mean, when i talk to clients... I explain to them, we use what works, what we know converts for the CALL TO ACTION that the client is seeking...
  You want the site to work for the client...this brings in more work with various upsells over time, more referrals more everything and testimonials.
  
  Following this type of approach 9 times out of 10 will alleviate concerns that a client might have...Your the expert not them, if they were, they would be building the site. Also if you find a client talking about past problems over and over... I have one suggestion RUN as FAST as YOU CAN! These types will run you ragged and drive you crazy... It took me a lot of years to Avoid this type of scenario at all costs... It cost way to much time, energy, money and lost revenue in the long run.
  
  Wishing you all the success my friend...
  Robert
  
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Jason Kanigan 13 years ago

So, Matt...how did it turn out?
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- Witty 13 years ago
  
  What happened to the customer is always right, hehe.
  
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Fernando Veloso 13 years ago

Business wise it's good for you to finish that job. Personally I'd refund a % of money and never look back. These morons can be time and focus consuming, and I have other things to take care of.

But hopefully you managed to finish his project and get paid.
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dcristo 13 years ago

I'm not a web designer but here goes...

I am guessing the agreement was there would be an unlimited number of revisions until he was happy.

However, where it crosses the line is when he wants a completely different layout. That is not acceptable imo. You've wasted all this time trying to design something according to his specs that got completely changed.

If he changes his mind mid way through the project that shouldn't become your problem.

You should be charging him extra for the extra hours that were put into the 1st design.
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- KingOfContentMarketing 13 years ago
  
  These guys and gals can be a tough call if they are spending a lot of money. Ultimately they use up too much of your most precious resource- time. Cut bait and find a better catch.
  
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PPC-Coach 13 years ago

If you've got a fixed number of revisions agreed upon, then yeah start charging him for anything past the fixed number.

Also, don't convince yourself he'll be fine once you get this done, he won't. Difficult and annoying clients just need to be dumped for your own sanity. You'll start hating doing anything for him and avoiding him. Don't go down that road.

You don't have to be rude to him, but tell him that the site is never going to be 100% perfect in his eyes from what you can foresee in working with him so far. So ask him to trust that you know what will work best and bring him the best return on his investment. Sounds like he needs some solid guidance on expectations and you need to position yourself better as the expert and not an order taker.
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MWGrubb58 13 years ago

I think the best thing that can be said is that you choose your clients.

When prospects end up causing you and trust you to make things right for them, you have tremendous leverage.

As you are positioned as the expert and maven, then potential clients will tend to let you guide without a lot of changes every 5 seconds.
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iAmNameLess 13 years ago

I didn't read any other comments in the thread. Yes, you should have picked up on it lol. Those are big signals that the client with be a major pain in the ass. If you decide to work with them, you need to go by the contract. If he doesn't like this 3rd revision, tell him the clock starts on the $60/hr.

I honestly, don't give my clients much choice anymore. I get an idea of what they want as a whole but they will like what i give them and thats just how it is. They aren't professionals in web design, you are. I don't bother with website "visionaries" anymore. The guys that know exactly what they want, I avoid lol.

I wouldn't give a refund, you've been working on his stuff... Do you have a refund clause in your contract? After investing the amount of time you have... I think you need to evaluate and decide what makes more sense, to either cut ties and refund or trudge through it.
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sonix 13 years ago

I would tell him that if none of your work so far meets his expectations then you should part ways. Otherwise, tell him you will finish the design you are currently working on, but any additional major redesign changes will $x/hour.
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Ant Marshall 13 years ago

Hey Matt,

I don't need to read any comments in this thread to give you your answer.

I've dealt with too many clients like this and I've learnt how to deal with it.

Design it for them and back the design up with reasons why you've done it that way.

If you haven't read the book "Influence" I suggest you do as it's a complete life changer and will impact your sales greatly. Trust me. Just by using the word "Because" in a sentence will get you more sales and yes's.

Since I started designing the website for them and fitting their needs with facts and tested methods of conversion, look and usability, it's so much easier to retain clients.

Plus, you'll sound like you really know your stuff.

Give it a go, I promise it will work for you.
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Best Way to Tell a Client That They're a Pain in Your @ss?

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