How to take advantage of this Cheese and Whiskers

12 years ago

I get tons of stuff every day saying never cold call again, but the author cold calls. Most of the hype out there, is exactly that, hype.

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damasgate

12 years ago

I actually found a new method that works really good for getting offline clients.

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on their office.

I've used this method and it's only gotten me arrested twice.

Still easier than cold calling.

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ryanmckinney

12 years ago

Originally Posted by damasgate

I actually found a new method that works really good for getting offline clients.

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on the their office.

I've used this method and it's only gotten my arrested twice.

Still easier than cold calling.

Bhahahhaha. This is great. Partly because I love pretending to be a Ninja.

I can just see someone fast roping through the ceiling , Mission Impossible Style, placing the sticky note on the desk, and zipping back into darkness.

Ryan

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racso316

12 years ago

Originally Posted by damasgate

I actually found a new method that works really good for getting offline clients.

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on the their office.

I've used this method and it's only gotten my arrested twice.

Still easier than cold calling.

Hahaha now that was funny. thanks. That's the future right there brotha.

Seriously though, delete your message quickly before someone steals your idea and starts selling it as a wso for $7 with an OTO of $100 with JV partners that leave glowing reviews. Or better yet send it to a big time "guru" and he can sell it for $200 or two payments of $97

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robfrancis

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

I'm not going to apologize for calling it BS...I usually don't bother with this stuff but I was a little curious and sure enough, cheese and whiskers!...I believe it's nothing short of bait and switch...getting hammered with all this cheese and whiskers nonsense

Thanks, David. I'm getting lots of this now from some big players in IM. Thought I'd come here and see what WF says on it.

Originally Posted by damasgate

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on the their office.

Brilliant! Seeing as it is cheese and whiskers approach, I believe you might want to try dressing up in a giant mouse costume and leave a huge block of swiss cheese the color of a post-it note on their desk. This way you won't get arrested - just keep an eye out for vermin exterminator vans.

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globalpro 12 years ago

Originally Posted by damasgate

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on the their office.

Maybe a variation of this would be to ninja into their office while they are there and karate chop the money out of them.

Then they are a long term customer who pays every month for fear of you coming back and karate chopping them some more.

Always looking for new sales approaches.

Thanks,

John
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T.R. McCarroll

12 years ago

Originally Posted by damasgate

I actually found a new method that works really good for getting offline clients.

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on their office.

I've used this method and it's only gotten me arrested twice.

Still easier than cold calling.

but you still cold-called the bail bondsman :-)

T.R.

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atrbiz

12 years ago

Originally Posted by damasgate

I actually found a new method that works really good for getting offline clients.

You wear a ninja suit and sneak into their businesses under the cover of the night and leave them a post-it note on their office.

I've used this method and it's only gotten me arrested twice.

Still easier than cold calling.

hahahaha, wow, I needed a nice laugh this Monday morning!

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TyBrown

12 years ago

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the reference 'cheese and whiskers'?

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vndnbrgj 12 years ago

Originally Posted by TyBrown

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the reference 'cheese and whiskers'?

You would if you watched the video.

As far as the ninja thing goes... I like to make sure no one sees me leave.

Slammin' Ninja Smoke Bombs! - YouTube
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Art Turner

12 years ago

Originally Posted by TyBrown

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the reference 'cheese and whiskers'?

No, you're not the only one. After a little research, the idea seems to be:

customer equals mouse
cheese equals something the mouse (customer) wants
whiskers equals cat, something the mouse (customer) doesn't want

The approach (and I'm not a fan of it) is to present yourself as something the customer wants and hide the fact you're really something they want to avoid.

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sandalwood

12 years ago

David,

Regarding:

"I'm not familiar with who you mention..."

that's alright you don't have to be. These are folks who take what you say in bullet points 1 & 2 below to the max. They will b.s. you until you are blue in the face. C&W simply made a suggestion that really isn't that far off the wall, again according to me.

Regarding the remainder of your sentence:

"but let me remind you of the C & W approach:

1. Get a gmail account (clearly to appear as an ordinary customer inquiry)
2. Ask a question to make them believe you are interested in becoming a customer"

Yes, that is what they said. I don't see it as much of a problem given I use a gmail account and tell the people it is a gmail account. If I happen to forget to mention it, no harm no foul.

As for #2, well, that could or could not be some what dubious. I know I don't have any qualms about asking questions and making them think I am a potential customer because I am a potential customer. My prospecting adventures have taught me who I will do business with and who I wouldn't use even if their service was free.

I use it as a learning tool. How does the merchant react to inquiries is important to me. I own an insurance agency and believe me when I say we've been shopped, lied to, accused and a whole bunch more by "potential" customers. Hell, at one time I could identify the agency or agencies calling us to get an idea of what we were quoting company and price wise.

Hell, it happens. People call it legally spying on your competition. Now, back to C&W. Like I said in my reply, if you can actually make a difference in the client's business and do what you say, you haven't, in areligious sense, lied to anyone.

But that is how I think. As a former successful stock broker I will only say you should have been in the 30 day training course we had to attend before we could start selling. C&W is almost non-existent compared to that bunch of bandits.

Anyway my friend, I appreciate the dialogue. I just don't see the depth of deception as compared to what others are doing. Personally I tell everybody upfront what I can do and ask for the order. I actually want them to know me and refer as many friends as possible.

The C&W method seems to make it easier to get in the door. I guess only the market will let us know if it has staying power.

Have a great day.

Tom

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RRG

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sandalwood

David,

Regarding:

"I'm not familiar with who you mention..."

that's alright you don't have to be. These are folks who take what you say in bullet points 1 & 2 below to the max. They will b.s. you until you are blue in the face. C&W simply made a suggestion that really isn't that far off the wall, again according to me.

Regarding the remainder of your sentence:

"but let me remind you of the C & W approach:

1. Get a gmail account (clearly to appear as an ordinary customer inquiry)
2. Ask a question to make them believe you are interested in becoming a customer"

Yes, that is what they said. I don't see it as much of a problem given I use a gmail account and tell the people it is a gmail account. If I happen to forget to mention it, no harm no foul.

As for #2, well, that could or could not be some what dubious. I know I don't have any qualms about asking questions and making them think I am a potential customer because I am a potential customer. My prospecting adventures have taught me who I will do business with and who I wouldn't use even if their service was free.

I use it as a learning tool. How does the merchant react to inquiries is important to me. I own an insurance agency and believe me when I say we've been shopped, lied to, accused and a whole bunch more by "potential" customers. Hell, at one time I could identify the agency or agencies calling us to get an idea of what we were quoting company and price wise.

Hell, it happens. People call it legally spying on your competition. Now, back to C&W. Like I said in my reply, if you can actually make a difference in the client's business and do what you say, you haven't, in areligious sense, lied to anyone.

But that is how I think. As a former successful stock broker I will only say you should have been in the 30 day training course we had to attend before we could start selling. C&W is almost non-existent compared to that bunch of bandits.

Anyway my friend, I appreciate the dialogue. I just don't see the depth of deception as compared to what others are doing. Personally I tell everybody upfront what I can do and ask for the order. I actually want them to know me and refer as many friends as possible.

The C&W method seems to make it easier to get in the door. I guess only the market will let us know if it has staying power.

Have a great day.

Tom

It's one thing to surreptitiously "shop" the competition.

It's quite another to pose as a customer who wants to buy something (bait) and then try to sell them something (switch).

How do you feel when someone attempts to start a new relationship with deception?

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sandalwood

12 years ago

Originally Posted by RRG

It's one thing to surreptitiously "shop" the competition.

It's quite another to pose as a customer who wants to buy something (bait) and then try to sell them something (switch).

How do you feel when someone attempts to start a new relationship with deception?

I don't quite understand what you meany by your first sentence. Are you saying you can perform spying and other black hat tactics using the umbrella of shopping surreptitiously and it is OK?

As for sentence two, I"ll agree if that is the intent. Intent use to be the cornerstone of all trials. The prosecutor had to prove intent. Today all he needs is someone complaining and that solves the intent issue. I use this line from numerous court cases on the matter. It is frightening to see how far we've digressed.

It is my understanding that posing as a customer isn't deception unless you are attempting to gain trade secrets or proprietary information. Posing as a customer is an awkward way to get your foot in the door I will agree. Once recognized it is usually met with stern rejection.

Again, my point is if the perpetrator actually performs for the "duped" biz owner, that is, increases his business, raises his google standing, builds him a satsifactory website, so the hell what. Both win.

As for your third question, well, that is a rhetorical attempt with no meaning. All religions attempt to start a new relationship based on deception. How do you feel about that?

All political parties attempt to start a new relationship based on deception. How do you feel about that?

All environmentalists attempt to start a new relationship based on deception. How do you feel about that?

Get the point. We can go on for hours but why? It truly isn't deception. It is an attempt to open a dialogue that probably would not be open otherwise. This hopefully results in a win-win relationship for all parties. From what I saw in the video, even the big time guru admitted such. He wanted to be sure the client came out smelling like a rose (my words). Try asking your bank or stock broker to do the same thing. When they stop laughing you'll have aged 20 years.

Just my random thoughts to your questions. I am always open to a dialogue. PM me and I'll give you my phone number. If you care to call, we will continue the conversation. Otherwise I don't believe I'll take up any more of this thread answering these type questions.

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David Miller

12 years ago

@sandalwood - The fact that something is done with some regularity does not make it right. Although you point to religion and politics as examples, I will make it my point not to discuss those examples. Those topics are off the table in business for a reason.

The bottom line as I see it is quite simple. If a product or service can only be introduced to a potential buyer by deception, the product or service cannot be of enough value to stand on its own.

If the reason its being introduced that way is because the person introducing it has no sales ability, it still doesn't justify the tactic. The sales process and the sales person is representative of the product. If he or she can't present it properly, it's the responsibility of the firm producing the product or service to either find a salesperson that can do the job properly, or provide proper training to the salesperson they have.

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payoman

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

@sandalwood - The fact that something is done with some regularity does not make it right. Although you point to religion and politics as examples, I will make it my point not to discuss those examples. Those topics are off the table in business for a reason.

The bottom line as I see it is quite simple. If a product or service can only be introduced to a potential buyer by deception, the product or service cannot be of enough value to stand on its own.

If the reason its being introduced that way is because the person introducing it has no sales ability, it still doesn't justify the tactic. The sales process and the sales person is representative of the product. If he or she can't present it properly, it's the responsibility of the firm producing the product or service to either find a salesperson that can do the job properly, or provide proper training to the salesperson they have.

David, I read a great quote by a really wealthy internet marketer who sold fitness ebooks using the head line 'lose bellyfat by following this 1 weird tip' (the ebook had a complete fitness regimen inside including exercise and healthy eating, just like any other exercise/fitness book) :

"I sell a customer on their wish, but I deliver them the manual"

or something to that extent, I read it ages ago.

The point is, doesn't sales copy do this all the time? Say one thing but the reality isn't QUITE what we imagine? Headlines? Television advertisements with beautiful models?

To some degree, it's all smoke and mirrors designed to PIQUE INTEREST. Because that's the key with anything in life that INSPIRES you to action; you want to see a RESULT, you aren't that interested in the process.

The process of increasing your marketing spending to generate leads from the internet isn't INSPIRING, it's the outcome of having 10/20/30 new cusomters a month and what that can do for you.

So presenting the RESULT upfront has a much HIGHER conversion than presenting the SALES PROCESS up front, don't you think?

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David Miller 12 years ago

@payoman - Any of us can point to salacious headlines to sell books and any number of items to consumers looking for easy answers. For years the weight loss industry has been one of the leaders in this area.

Here are a some other famous examples: Faux pearls, Genuine Gold Plate, the notorius "see thru walls", spurious spanish fly, and the list goes on and on. You'll notice that they all have one thing in common (besides the assumption that most people don't know the meaning of "spurious" or "faux") and that's the fact that these are all retail to the consumer.

These examples are fine, they are cases of "buyer beware" and they are not business to business situations. Just how many people do you think are repeat buyers for any of these things. In other words, no one is looking for repeat business, or a business relationship.

In internet marketing, the type where you sell an ebook or hard good, and the only thing your customer knows about you is your ip address, sadly, almost anything goes.

However, if you wish to build a legitimate business, based on trust, service, and reputation, deception at any juncture in the relationship is not a risk worth taking.

Like others here, I've been reading your posts and offering some advice when I can. Even though they are only posts, you can often tell by what people write and how they write, what type of person they might be.

So I will end this post by posing a question to you.

You're in the beginning stages of building your business from what I can see. Every one of your new clients has the potential to be worth thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of dollars to you in the future. Monday, I imagine you'll spend some time prospecting for new business.

Which potential client relationship do you want to start with a lie?
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sandalwood

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

@sandalwood - The fact that something is done with some regularity does not make it right. Although you point to religion and politics as examples, I will make it my point not to discuss those examples. Those topics are off the table in business for a reason.

The bottom line as I see it is quite simple. If a product or service can only be introduced to a potential buyer by deception, the product or service cannot be of enough value to stand on its own.

If the reason its being introduced that way is because the person introducing it has no sales ability, it still doesn't justify the tactic. The sales process and the sales person is representative of the product. If he or she can't present it properly, it's the responsibility of the firm producing the product or service to either find a salesperson that can do the job properly, or provide proper training to the salesperson they have.

David,

I love you man. You forced me to pull my Black's Law Dictionary off the shelf. Here is the legal definition of deception:

"Knowingly and willfully making a false statement or representation, express or implied, pertaining to a present or past existing fact."

Is the C&W method of entering a biz owner's life a deception according to the above legal definition? If it isn't, one can no longer call it that w/o facing a counter claim. If it is, the perpetrators better recant their actions and pronto.

As for religion and politics being off the table, nope, can't take them off. (Ask Jesse Ventura.) Politics effects and affects every aspect of your business. Did you register your LLC, Inc or Partnership with the State? You bet you did. You fell right into the political clap trap.

Do you pay taxes? Yep, you at least file every year. Who wrote the statutes that say you must file and how much you will pay? Oh, the politicians. So I guess politics has its thumb in our collective eyes but we can't see it. Kind of like deception. But, and it is, or I am, a big but.

As for religion, did you not make a statement about deception? What did the one true Christ say about Satan's ways? His arsenal contains deception to bring old text into modern lingo. I'd pull out my Strong's Concordence and quote appropriate passages but it is on the top shelf of my book case and my back hurts.

Politics and religion are NEVER off the table. They are the only two things that guide and direct us through our daily affairs. Anyone who believes either or both are off the table has never dealt with a Muslim, Jew, Born Again, Fundamentalist or a myriad of other religious sects. If you don't believe me, catch a taxi, go to your nearest 7-11, go to your airport and look curbside, etc. Both are all around us and we can't escape them.

God, I love this dialogue. Oh yeah. Allah ak-bar. Don't want to offend anyone. Advertisers may stop sponsoring me ala Rush.

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sandalwood

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

I'm not going to apologize for calling it BS. It is what it is and if you want to argue the point, there's another thread where you can do it.

Besides the couple of videos that have shown up here, in the last week I've gotten emails about some great new techniques to "never have to cold call again!" and "one technique allowed me to buy a small island in the south pacific"....you know the drill. I usually don't bother with this stuff but I was a little curious and sure enough, cheese and whiskers!

I know these kind of things hit the market in a viral way and it looks like this one is the latest....and it also looks like a lot of people are thinking it's a great idea. If you're not alread aware of my opionion, I believe it's nothing short of bait and switch and I don't believe a single word of the hype.

If there's one credible person here that used or uses this system, I'd like to hear about it. Until that time, I'll stand by my opinion of it.

So here's how you should take advantage of it:

Get on the phone and contact your prospects honestly. Refine you introduction so that you capture your prospects attention quickly. If they are a qualified prospect, they will respond positively.

If they are not qualified, it won't cause any harm, but it's been my experience that when you behave as a professional, even an unqualified prospect can become a source of business down the road.

If they've been getting hammered with all this cheese and whiskers nonsense, I promise you they will welcome a professional approach.

David,

Since I know you are one credible dude, I respect your above posting. I would like to go at this cheese and whiskers thing a little differently. I won't address the hype or the two payments of only 97 dollars each. This is typical of a guru approach to milk the masses of asses who unfortunately don't have much marketing or sales skills.

In fact, I've only watched two videos about this thing and in one of the videos the speaker actually admits what I just said about milking the asses is absolutely true. Oh well, life isn't fair.

Here is my take. I don't believe you are BSing the potential client with the approach. Look at Bottom Line Personal and Stansbury Associates (they publish about 899 financially oriented books, newsletters, seminars) just to name two. They all use tantalizing headlines and salacious call to action points and charge in the thousands for their BS.

If I am correct about C&W, the only difference is their 1st email sets the stage, 2nd email shows the production and the 3rd email puts you in the client's office. It is at this point where you have to put up.

Let's take their 100 dollar google trick, oops maybe wrong term but maybe not. To those of us who know about it, it seems like a trick. To the potential client it isn't a trick at all. He doesn't even know about the offer and is perfectly fine with paying you $20 to get $100 worth of advertising. Even if he did know about it, he'd probably pay you the $20 because his time is worth more.

Stock brokers, financial planners, financial advisors, tax prep businesses, lawyers, politicians, arbitrators and the list goes on do it everyday of the week. They tell you they are giving you "peace of mind" "retire early" "get your fair share". To me there isn't much difference.

I believe if their emails actually get you in the door and you can perform as you say you can, then I don't care what you call your program. C&W has a nice ring to it but so does S&M to a certain set of people.

Oh, I better qualify this post with a loud I AM NOT associated with C&W in any shape, form or manner. I wasn't paid to write this post and I don't make a dime off anything they sell.

I watched the 2nd video I mentioned above and picked up some excellent tips. The truth is, their material is available in several WSO's that each asked less than $194. However, if you want to spend 194 go ahead.

BTW, every guru seems to be putting out a program on how to become the local client gorilla getter. Most of them aren't as adacious in their pricing as C&W but so what, right? Again if a guy wants to spend 194 on stuff he can get for $10 or $7, depending on the guru making the offer, he is free to go there.

Oh, I better add I don't intend to be a C&W customer. Great ideas, great tools, but, nope, not for 194 given their system of contact is out of a mail order book published in the 70's if memory hasn't failed me.

Now I think a guy can say their program isn't worth the money but it is worth a looksee. After all, there is money on the floor of horse stalls. My sister used to raise horses and she made extra dough by selling the natural organic fertilizer generated by her fertilizer machines.

See, all has value but to what degree is probably what you are saying. To that I would agree.

Anyway, good kind sir, thank you for your post and I hope we can talk again in the future.

Let me close with a suggestion to anyone who wants to learn how to market and learn for free. Sign up for Paul Meyers talkbiz newsletter. Paul did not pay me to write this post nor do I receive a dime from Paul. I subscribe to his NL, that's it. If you can't learn from Paul, you certainly won't learn from C&W, S&M or P&G.

OK, I'm finished with my 2 and 3/4¢...

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Quentin

12 years ago

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bobmcalister

12 years ago

or put on a disguise , like mine...works everytime!

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David Miller 12 years ago

@sandalwood - I believe there is something that can be learned from just about anything. Many times, particularly with WSO's and "selling systems" you can learn what not to do as well.

However, this statement of yours:

"Here is my take. I don't believe you are BSing the potential client with the approach. Look at Bottom Line Personal and Stansbury Associates (they publish about 899 financially oriented books, newsletters, seminars) just to name two. They all use tantalizing headlines and salacious call to action points and charge in the thousands for their BS."

I'm not familiar with who you mention but let me remind you of the C & W approach:

1. Get a gmail account (clearly to appear as an ordinary customer inquiry)
2. Ask a question to make them believe you are interested in becoming a customer

If you change their approach, it's no longer the system they promote.

What many people fail to realize is that these "systems" only serve to make it harder for those of us that market products and services properly.

I will also submit that many businesses have lost business because of these pathetic approaches. Many times I've called a business to ask about their services for my own use and I've been met with suspicion rather than the type of response that I would expect as a potential customer.

When this happens, I'll ask why I'm getting the 3rd degree from them. Typically, I'll hear a story about how they were "victimized" (their word) by sales people pretending to be a customer.

There are times when I don't ask why, I'll just move on until I find the business that responds properly.
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RentItNow

12 years ago

David, I'm sorry but I was a really good worker this week and deleted all my big name marketers emails..likely for the same reason as you...I know their tricks and tend to ignore them lately. Can you let me know what this thread is referring to?

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David Miller

12 years ago

Originally Posted by RentItNow

David, I'm sorry but I was a really good worker this week and deleted all my big name marketers emails..likely for the same reason as you...I know their tricks and tend to ignore them lately. Can you let me know what this thread is referring to?

It's a result of the cheese and whiskers video POS marketing method in this thread:

http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...hod-video.html

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Fernando Veloso

12 years ago

This is an IM forum. The bigger of all, actually. Dozens of countries are represented here. Different people, different languages, different markets, different cultures.

That said:

1 - What works the best for YOU, might not work for ME at all.
2 - What YOU call Cheese and Whiskers, can be called by ME "my best earner".

Open your mind.

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David Miller

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

This is an IM forum. The bigger of all, actually. Dozens of countries are represented here. Different people, different languages, different markets, different cultures.

That said:

1 - What works the best for YOU, might not work for ME at all.
2 - What YOU call Cheese and Whiskers, can be called by ME "my best earner".

Open your mind.

My mind is very open to new ideas and ways of doing things. Please share with me, in what culture is deception an acceptable way of doing business?

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Fernando Veloso

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

My mind is very open to new ideas and ways of doing things. Please share with me, in what culture is deception an acceptable way of doing business?

Where did I use "deception" in my post?

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Colm Whelan

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

Where did I use "deception" in my post?

You didn't Fernando but what you call "Cheese and Whiskers" is by any yardstick deception. You can try to gild the lily anyway you llike but it remains what it is - a deceptive bait and switch tactic that will get you thrown out of many (if not most) businesses.

It's a bit like those advertising sales execs - selling local busines calendars and such - that drop the name of the club or organisation in such a way that it seems like they work directly for it without ever actually saying so.

Lying to someone and leading them to believe something false amounts to the same thing. It makes you a liar and a cheat. And if that's OK by you then you're just one step above a con man.

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Creativegirl 12 years ago

Really glad to read this thread. I watched the video and was interested but the price point didn't support it and from the beginning I felt the gmail account for "personalization" purposes was deceptive.

I receive dozens of these unsolicited, spam emails every day wanting to sell me seo services and the first red flag is the gmail address. No matter how you spin it to make it acceptable, using a free email account to protect yourself from being labeled spam is deceptive, and that's the primary reason it is used.

The business model anyone can adapt and work. With a local business and local profile, it has to be clean through and through for me.

Like any sales it's a numbers game. You send emails instead of cold calling or going door to door.

And you're right, it does make it harder for many good marketers who don't use creative, albeit deceptive tactics.

Good thread.
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Fernando Veloso

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Colm Whelan

And if that's OK by you then you're just one step above a con man.

:rolleyes: Well, you just proved my point:

Some people in here are so desperate to rant on something, they (usually) rant on someone/product/service/system/technique they never used, read in depth, etc etc. They assume a PART of something is deceptive and they make the whole thing OR person a CON MAN.

Just like you tried above ^^ without knowing me, my company, my team, my services, my knowledge, my clients list for 8 years offline, and most important: my experience.

Truth be told, it's people like you that keeps me away from this ****ty sub-forum to share my knowledge for free. So many crap posted everyday, so many people pretending they know what they're talking about, so many wrong advices just to make a quick sale, it's disgusting.

I'm out of here.

Have fun trying to play the offline game - which some of us DO PLAY for years, with REAL companies and real success systems.

:rolleyes:

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David Miller 12 years ago

@Fernando Veloso - I can only assume that you didn't view the video in question here. Having read and benefited from many of your posts in this forum I find it hard to understand your reaction to this thread.
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Colm Whelan

12 years ago

Fernando - I had written a complete reply to your attempted put-down.

Then I read back over this thread again and decided that maybe you are being mis-understood by me (among others) here. For the sake of clarity, therefore; is it the case that you support the "Cheese & Whiskers" approach as outlined in the video linked in the first post on this thread? In particular, the use of tactics designed to lead the potential client to initially believe that you are a customer?

It is my understanding that you do support it. If I am mistaken, then I apologise.

I (again, among others) consider this approach to be unethical, misleading, dishonest and just plain lying in order to get in the door. I would have very strong doubts about the veracity of ANY individual who espoused it as legitmate method of gaining clients.

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

:rolleyes: Well, you just proved my point:

Some people in here are so desperate to rant on something, they (usually) rant on someone/product/service/system/technique they never used, read in depth, etc etc. They assume a PART of something is deceptive and they make the whole thing OR person a CON MAN.

Just like you tried above ^^ without knowing me, my company, my team, my services, my knowledge, my clients list for 8 years offline, and most important: my experience.

Truth be told, it's people like you that keeps me away from this ****ty sub-forum to share my knowledge for free. So many crap posted everyday, so many people pretending they know what they're talking about, so many wrong advices just to make a quick sale, it's disgusting.

I'm out of here.

Have fun trying to play the offline game - which some of us DO PLAY for years, with REAL companies and real success systems.

:rolleyes:

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wilder1047

12 years ago

The idea really is to open up a business owner that would otherwise run the other way strictly due to the fact you're trying to sell them something.

If you look at the whole method, the only really "deceitful" part is the first e-mail.

As the second e-mail is asking how much business they could actually handle, which right there should tell the business owner this isn't a regular customer inquiry, so it's really up to them to reply if they're interested or not...

We're not contacting these businesses and trying to swindle them into handing us the keys to their business.

We're genuinely trying to help them.

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Colm Whelan 12 years ago

Originally Posted by wilder1047

If you look at the whole method, the only really "deceitful" part is the first e-mail. .................... We're genuinely trying to help them.

Oh, well that makes it OK then.
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RentItNow

12 years ago

Ummm, sort of half on the fence with this one. I once thought of having a few people I know call businesses and asking them if they had websites and then walking in to that business offering a website to the ones that did not and say something like, "Most of your customers are looking for you online". But I did decide to not do this because of my strong propensity towards good Karma.

However, when i owned a rental business I would call a Landlord and say, 'I'm calling about your house on blah blah, would you like help finding tenants for it? I have a list of about 50 people looking right now for homes." And RARELY would a landlord not talk to me. But the difference was, I had 50 qualified tenants looking at any given moment so I could deliver what I suggested under certain ideal conditions (if the place was a good place and the landlord just did not want to deal with people).

Hmmm...I dont think I would do this method as spoken but may modify it a bit...something more ethical...i just figure why start a business relationship using a trick?

I know what the guy says about walking into a place and the knife coming out but once you have your business attitude swinging when you enter, you can deal with owner's on a same level. It's not really that difficult. We both own a business. I know how to market better than 99% of the businesses in my city. If that comes across, so does a cheque once the relationship is built with a simple service first (that he got right!)

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David Miller 12 years ago

I've stated this before, but if someone is willing to use this system "as is" we may be able to determine the validity of is once and for all (at least to a degree).

@rentitnow - the method you stated you use in which you stated up front that you can help fill up rental units for him, clearly is not the type of call a landlord would receive from a renter.

I think this method is just another attempt to take advantage of the many people out there who want to believe that there is some kind of shortcut or magic button that is easier than sales.

It's ironic that these same people are usually the ones that berate sales people and call them out as pushy and as liars who will do or say anything to make a sale. Face it folks, sales people, at least successful sales people are among the highest paid professional in most countries. Clearly there's a reason for this.

This all started because a few people decided to chat about the veracity of this system. My opinion is that it's worthless and deceptive. Go ahead and use it if you want, it has almost no impact on me or any others who understand the value of building business relationships. I imagine, based on the amount of spamming that has been done for this program, there will be a number of people using it.

I imagine the only impact that it will have on me, is that my prospects will thank me for being straight with them and not wasting their time.
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vndnbrgj

12 years ago

Say you are trying to sell website redesigns....
You call up businesses and tell them you just got done re-designing their website and would like to set up a time to get together with them to show it.
Would you really set up a mockup for every business you called?

Or would you set up a mockup once the business owner showed interest, and set an appt with you?

If you do the mockup after getting the appointment, that could be deceitful. After all, you never did create a mockup. But, you told them you did just to get an appointment.

Cheese - Beautiful new website
Whiskers - Hey, my name is so and so with ABC marketing. Can I sell you a new website?

The point of the video to me, wasn't about the specifics but more of what cheese and whiskers is about.

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David Miller

12 years ago

Originally Posted by vndnbrgj

Say you are trying to sell website redesigns....
You call up businesses and tell them you just got done re-designing their website and would like to set up a time to get together with them to show it.
Would you really set up a mockup for every business you called?

Or would you set up a mockup once the business owner showed interest, and set an appt with you?

If you do the mockup after getting the appointment, that could be deceitful. After all, you never did create a mockup. But, you told them you did just to get an appointment.

Cheese - Beautiful new website
Whiskers - Hey, my name is so and so with ABC marketing. Can I sell you a new website?

The point of the video to me, wasn't about the specifics but more of what cheese and whiskers is about.

It's really good point you're making. I doubt that too many people would redefine that system the way you have, and I doubt that the intent of the producers was to put forth a theory that could be built upon that way.

If you call what do in that scenario "cheese and whiskers" that's up to you. I would call it cold calling with the extra step of showing a prospect that you've already done some research and know something about them.

When you weigh that, (researching a prospect before initial contact) against a bait and switch email, you are giving credit to a system that is far inferior to what you propose.

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wilder1047

12 years ago

I know my comment was far from productive in arguing for the cheese and whiskers method.

But, I don't really know who the method is harming, it's actually helping them (based off the logic that you are able to help them).

You're doing something to get their attention so they'll listen to what you have to say, rather then them looking at you as a salesman right off the bat and going "lah lah lah lah lah lah" the entire time you're trying to speak to them.

In the second e-mail you're asking if they can handle 5-10 more jobs per month (or whatever number you please), so it's more of a process, and you peak their interest by telling them purely the benefits. If you go in as a salesman, they want to know who you are, what you're doing, and what you're selling, you don't have the opportunity to tell the benefits before they know you're just another SEO guy, or whatever you maybe selling.

I remember a friend of mine got a call from an SEO guy, and he was telling me about it later since I know about this "internet thing", and the SEO guy on the phone had failed to even tell him the benefits of being ranked, just told him their business would be ranked in a couple months time - that means nothing to him.

Now, I know all of the people around here are well aware of pushing the benefits rather then the actual marketing method - but, was my friend wrong? Did the SEO guy actually tell him the benefits and he just failed to understand/listen because he was on his heels making sure he wasn't sold anything?

I'm still employed because I haven't made this offline thing count in a big enough way to do it full-time, so maybe that discounts my opinion, but, I can tell you, receiving a phone call from a potential salesman is way more of a pain then receiving an e-mail.

If the guy on the phone does get past me and manages to speak to the manager, I'm scolded on my end because I didn't do a good enough job screening the phone call. So, why on earth would I want to take that method on myself and potentially cause problems for gatekeepers?

So, lets say I am different then all the other salesman that gatekeeper has screened, but due to all of the other salesman calls, I'm not grouped with them and they've all made a bad name for me.. It's the same concept as you saying this e-mail method is making a bad name for you guys that go the "honest approach".

An e-mail also gives a business owner the opportunity to politely dismiss it. Whereas during a phone call, they're put on the spot and have to think of the polite way to get off the phone, which is why I imagine sometimes you run into people that angrily hang up the phone.. they've been bombarded with so many phone calls by salesmen they're tired of being nice.

Bottom-line, if I was at any point duping people to give me money, then I would completely agree with you guys, this method would be crap, but you're legitimately just out there trying to help them.

I would use a method similar to this in anything if I knew it was going to be the most efficient way to get through to somebody who wouldn't listen to me, and they would benefit on the other side.

Last story, haha:

I had two friends, Justin and Chris, that wanted to go to the World Cup in Europe back in 200<?> whatever year it was.

Well, they took a look and found out all of the tickets were sold out to all of the games, so Chris lost all interest and decided to say screw it.

Justin still wanted to go, so he went to Chris and said, I just spoke with my cousins in England, and they've got tickets to a France and Brazil game!

So, Chris, newly motivated said yeah let's do this! And he put in some overtime shifts to make the money and pay for the trip over there and all the rest.

They're sitting on the plane, about to take-off, and Justin leans over to Chris and says "Man, I gotta tell you the truth, there are no tickets, I just really wanted you to come."

While Chris was pissed off at the time, he now in turn says it was the greatest trip of his life and would never take it back for anything, holds no grudges again Justin.

So, even a lie like that, turned out to make for the greatest time in Chris' life, so was it harmful? He would have missed the opportunity otherwise.

It's the same thing happening here, you could be taking these peoples businesses through the roof, but because they have such a distain for salesmen they aren't willing to jump in.

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David Miller

12 years ago

@wilder1047 - OK....just do it!

No offense intended here. This is getting to be a debate with no winner. I won't do this because in my mind, it's simple bait and switch. You say you have a manager that won't talk to sales people. Is there a particular reason for that? Did a sales person drop him on his head as a child? Can you say he would happier about being tricked into speaking with a sales person? I just don't get that attitude, and I won't spend my day worrying about that guy. I just call the next one.

Now let's stop going back and forth. Get yourself a personal email account to disguise the fact that you might be a salesperson. Send an email pretending you might be a customer. Send a second email saying you might be a big customer. Than call and tell them you actually want to sell them a service to get them more business.

Just do it and stop arguing. Than after you've done it, come back here and share the results. If I'm wrong, I'll wash your car.

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RRG

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

@wilder1047 - OK....just do it!

No offense intended here. This is getting to be a debate with no winner. I won't do this because in my mind, it's simple bait and switch. You say you have a manager that won't talk to sales people. Is there a particular reason for that? Did a sales person drop him on his head as a child? Can you say he would happier about being tricked into speaking with a sales person? I just don't get that attitude, and I won't spend my day worrying about that guy. I just call the next one.

Now let's stop going back and forth. Get yourself a personal email account to disguise the fact that you might be a salesperson. Send an email pretending you might be a customer. Send a second email saying you might be a big customer. Than call and tell them you actually want to sell them a service to get them more business.

Just do it and stop arguing. Than after you've done it, come back here and share the results. If I'm wrong, I'll wash your car.

Might as well offer to buy his car.

Because you're not wrong.

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Simoshere

12 years ago

I watched the video last week on this and then I read all of Dean Jackson's interviews on this method.

In the interview he told the company he was working with, that sells birthday mailings, to send an email to their list saying "do you do birthdays?"

I dont see that as deception. There is a rule that not every sales man follows that says DONT waste your time if they have NO need for your product. Therefore the first question is not to make you come across as a customer but rather to see if recognizing their customers birthdays is even something they consider important.

In the second email you reply "Perfect. I handle the marketing over at ___________ and they are booked. Can you handle 5-10 customers a week?" Again this is said only to see if the business can handle volume. If you actually deliver what you say you can deliver then you need to know if they can handle that amount. Some businesses can't handle any increase.

And Last you ask a set of questions that is sure to get the "Boss Man" involved in the conversation. As we all know Marketing is a subjective process. But at the end of the day Marketing is all about getting your message in front of the right person.

This is a method to get your message in front of the right person before they are turned off by what you have to say..

Have I used it yet? NO
Will I use it? YES, when I finish with my current strategies.

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David Miller 12 years ago

"This is a method to get your message in front of the right person before they are turned off by what you have to say.."

If this is the problem you should either:

1. Learn how to say it so they are not turned off or
2. Find out what it is about your product that is turning them off

Actually in the second call you tell them that you can bring them business...not that you are selling anything yet.

But let us know how it turns out.

I'm pretty sure that if enough people do this that sometime soon one of my prospects will thank me for being honest about the reason for my call and not wasting their time.

I'm done.
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Stephanie Henry

12 years ago

So I can't help but think to myself how my Grandmother, who runs an extremely successful seamstress business from her home would be the PERFECT reason why C&W doesn't require a negative connotation....... If you called her up (or emailed) right now and used the C&W you'd stop yourself from wasting your time (and hers) right when you asked if she can handle 10-20 more clients this month. Because her answer is no.

She has too many clients and is not taking anymore.

Does C&W still automatically need to have a negative connotation? Nope.

And you wanted a case study on the effectiveness of using C&W? Sure. It worked the very first time I *ever* cold called a place in the offline marketing world. However, I didn't know this technique had an official name already, as I simply just referred to it as dangling a carrot and waiting for them to come get it. I simply called with the intentions of explaining (dangling) the benefits before asking for the sale. But funny enough, it worked so well in my favor that I didn't have to ask for the sale... the conversation turned into the guy asking me if I do X, Y & Z marketing services also.

Here's how the call went:

I call up a funeral home

Receptionist answers the phone

I tell her I'm starting to plan for my future early, and asked if they offer a certain add-on service to what they currently offer

She is very confused and is fumbling around her words trying to understand what I'm asking

I re-explain it (remember, was a total noob and wasn't thinking straight the first time I answered and gave this highly technical/features-oriented answer) but this time I must have made sense because she says "oh, no we don't... but the funeral director would definitely be curious to hear more about this"

Right there was my hall pass granted by the receptionist. She volunteered to give me the guys name, his direct phone number, and said he'd follow up with me usually in about 2-3 days. He called me the very next day.

Had she said no right away and had absolutely no interest they would've 1.) lost their future customer & 2.) bored the crap out of me because I can only stay interested in clients who are at minimum curious about stepping outside of their comfort zone and trying something new (new to them -- doesn't necessarily have to be new to me).

I asked if they provided that service because I knew beyond a reasonable doubt that they would say no. But also notice how the first thing I said to her is that I'm calling to ask because I'm planning for my future. Was I ready to buy right that moment? Nope. But now when I'm a little more serious about it I know exactly who I am going back to to put my deposit with. Someone else already mentioned this earlier, which is that how is it deceptive if you actually do have an interest in their services? Would you just shrug off and call someone a "time waster" if they are simply in the gathering information stage of the sale? I wouldn't. Just because they didn't buy right this moment doesn't mean that they won't later on down the road.

Sooooo.... would that be deceptive because I knew there was no way in hell they already offered what I wanted to sell to them?

Now, surely someone could argue that I didn't use the same exact style with the funeral home as what has been mentioned with most of the C&W talk here on the board... but in all reality the C&W method is simply the idea of attracting new business with the cheese... rather than trying to go head on hard selling them right off the bat where you are usually going to get the whiskers.

In a sense I guess you could say that as a newbie I mixed an advanced selling technique with a newbie technique. And it worked. I didn't learn it from anybody... but it was common sense to only spend time talking to people who were genuinely interested in my services (either before talking to them at all, or within the first minute of the conversation) rather than having to convince them that they want/need me.

And even if you use the exact step by step method that Perry teaches you are still weeding out those who would have no need (or want) for your services otherwise.

IMO, all the C&W is is a real life version of some good sales copy that is proven to convert. Sure, I agree it sucks when you are duped by sales copy..... but if you really can deliver what you are trying to sell... then no one is being duped... am I wrong?

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sandalwood

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Stephanie Henry

So I can't help but think to myself how my Grandmother, who runs an extremely successful seamstress business from her home would be the PERFECT reason why C&W doesn't require a negative connotation....... If you called her up (or emailed) right now and used the C&W you'd stop yourself from wasting your time (and hers) right when you asked if she can handle 10-20 more clients this month. Because her answer is no.

She has too many clients and is not taking anymore.

Does C&W still automatically need to have a negative connotation? Nope.

And you wanted a case study on the effectiveness of using C&W? Sure. It worked the very first time I *ever* cold called a place in the offline marketing world. However, I didn't know this technique had an official name already, as I simply just referred to it as dangling a carrot and waiting for them to come get it. I simply called with the intentions of explaining (dangling) the benefits before asking for the sale. But funny enough, it worked so well in my favor that I didn't have to ask for the sale... the conversation turned into the guy asking me if I do X, Y & Z marketing services also.

Here's how the call went:

I call up a funeral home

Receptionist answers the phone

I tell her I'm starting to plan for my future early, and asked if they offer a certain add-on service to what they currently offer

She is very confused and is fumbling around her words trying to understand what I'm asking

I re-explain it (remember, was a total noob and wasn't thinking straight the first time I answered and gave this highly technical/features-oriented answer) but this time I must have made sense because she says "oh, no we don't... but the funeral director would definitely be curious to hear more about this"

Right there was my hall pass granted by the receptionist. She volunteered to give me the guys name, his direct phone number, and said he'd follow up with me usually in about 2-3 days. He called me the very next day.

Had she said no right away and had absolutely no interest they would've 1.) lost their future customer & 2.) bored the crap out of me because I can only stay interested in clients who are at minimum curious about stepping outside of their comfort zone and trying something new (new to them -- doesn't necessarily have to be new to me).

I asked if they provided that service because I knew beyond a reasonable doubt that they would say no. But also notice how the first thing I said to her is that I'm calling to ask because I'm planning for my future. Was I ready to buy right that moment? Nope. But now when I'm a little more serious about it I know exactly who I am going back to to put my deposit with. Someone else already mentioned this earlier, which is that how is it deceptive if you actually do have an interest in their services? Would you just shrug off and call someone a "time waster" if they are simply in the gathering information stage of the sale? I wouldn't. Just because they didn't buy right this moment doesn't mean that they won't later on down the road.

Sooooo.... would that be deceptive because I knew there was no way in hell they already offered what I wanted to sell to them?

Now, surely someone could argue that I didn't use the same exact style with the funeral home as what has been mentioned with most of the C&W talk here on the board... but in all reality the C&W method is simply the idea of attracting new business with the cheese... rather than trying to go head on hard selling them right off the bat where you are usually going to get the whiskers.

In a sense I guess you could say that as a newbie I mixed an advanced selling technique with a newbie technique. And it worked. I didn't learn it from anybody... but it was common sense to only spend time talking to people who were genuinely interested in my services (either before talking to them at all, or within the first minute of the conversation) rather than having to convince them that they want/need me.

And even if you use the exact step by step method that Perry teaches you are still weeding out those who would have no need (or want) for your services otherwise.

IMO, all the C&W is is a real life version of some good sales copy that is proven to convert. Sure, I agree it sucks when you are duped by sales copy..... but if you really can deliver what you are trying to sell... then no one is being duped... am I wrong?

Stephanie,

You wrote:

"but if you really can deliver what you are trying to sell... then no one is being duped..."

That is the point I made earlier. You have to be able to deliver what you are trying to sell. Period. End of story.

So when you ask: am I wrong? The answer is no. You are only deceptive and a scam artist if you can't deliver or don't intend to deliver.

Have a great day...

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YellowGreenMedia

12 years ago

Originally Posted by sandalwood

Stephanie,

You wrote:

"but if you really can deliver what you are trying to sell... then no one is being duped..."

That is the point I made earlier. You have to be able to deliver what you are trying to sell. Period. End of story.

So when you ask: am I wrong? The answer is no. You are only deceptive and a scam artist if you can't deliver or don't intend to deliver.

Have a great day...

Of course it is not deceptive if you deliver what you have promised and giving them a great service how is rhat duping them, i wonder.

I think this is a great way to get the conversation started, yeah a view prospects may have the feeling being duped.... so be it, they are not yet my client and so i don't really care how they feel... I will care as soon as they are interested to be my client. I understand that this might sound a bit harsh for some of you good doers.

But hey cold calling isn't all that ethical either... interrupting and invading someones privacy to trick them to buy your services... there are a lot of people that hate telemarketers to maybe even more then this C&W thingie ... do they really care about that?

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Lee M

12 years ago

I conducted a "Cheese and Whiskers" test without actually giving any thought to it.

Interestingly, one time I was working on a project related to 'mobile auto detailing' businesses and needed some direct feedback from the marketplace. So I contacted TEN mobile auto detailing shops ... both near me as well as across the USA.

I came to learn that during the day most of these guys are out working on jobs at various locations. (Hence, the term "mobile" auto detailing ... they come to your location).

So when I called it went straight to their voicemail. Without even thinking I just hung up in all cases. (Of course they could see my phone number on Caller-ID)

Guess what? I received a return phone in EVERY case (10 out of 10) anywhere from 15 minutes to 3 hours later.

Why?

Because they THOUGHT I was a potential customer and they missed my call! Bear in mind I didn't even leave a message.

I spoke with them about my project and they were actually very nice and friendly. Gave me some great feedback.

HOWEVER, a week later ... I tried the exact same strategy with 10 more prospects. Same thing happened ... my call went to voicemail ... and they ALL called me back. But this time ... I tried to SELL THEM on my idea ... (i.e. specific way to bring in more sales for their business etc.)

IMMEDIATELY -- the red flags went up. Three of them even hung up on me mid-sentence! (And yes, I'm very experienced and know how to handle myself).

Conclusion: You may be able to "probe" the market as I did. Ask their opinions etc. I'm confident that you can make this type of approach work in your favor. BUT -- once you try to "SELL" ... not only are you just like anyone else (a cold-calling salesman etc.) ... you are worse ... because you were deceitful.

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kirbymarketingconcierge

12 years ago

Business Ethics test:

Business : Window Replacement

Territory & Target Market : Automobiles parked.

Prospecting : Look for Auto's with cracks on the windshield.

Marketing : when you find a prospect with a crack in the windshield, you break the entire window... And, leave a handwritten note on the drivers side window saying "call me regarding your car"

Sales : they call in and you sell them a new windshield.

Rationale : The fact is a crack is unsafe for you and other drivers!

not a business I would want to be in: How you sell, is how you buy. not just intent of seller, but expectation of buyer.

can you live with yourself (sleep at night) running this business?

I cannot. I have to make money AND help people.

but I could be wrong.

do the ends justify the means?????

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YellowGreenMedia

12 years ago

And you don't see the difference between breaking someone car window or asking if a prospect wants to have more clients...

Some people will fetch very far to make their point, and judging y your post your one of them.

Dave

Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge

Business Ethics test:

Business : Window Replacement

Territory & Target Market : Automobiles parked.

Prospecting : Look for Auto's with cracks on the windshield.

Marketing : when you find a prospect with a crack in the windshield, you break the entire window... And, leave a handwritten note on the drivers side window saying "call me regarding your car"

Sales : they call in and you sell them a new windshield.

Rationale : The fact is a crack is unsafe for you and other drivers!

not a business I would want to be in: How you sell, is how you buy. not just intent of seller, but expectation of buyer.

can you live with yourself (sleep at night) running this business?

I cannot. I have to make money AND help people.

but I could be wrong.

do the ends justify the means?????

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kirbymarketingconcierge

12 years ago

Originally Posted by YellowGreenMedia

And you don't see the difference between breaking someone car window or asking if a prospect wants to have more clients...

Some people will fetch very far to make their point, and judging y your post your one of them.

Dave

I would rather stretch my point, than the truth.
sometimes, given human nature ....people will expand their "rationale" (what their willing to do out of self-interest) to sleep better at night.
IMO

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mammothsnowman 12 years ago

"local" why are you not local?

You must live in the city... I bet you got more businesses in 5 miles of you then we do in 300 sq miles. lol
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- YellowGreenMedia 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by mammothsnowman
  
  "local" why are you not local?
  
  You must live in the city... I bet you got more businesses in 5 miles of you then we do in 300 sq miles. lol
  
  Nonsens... most my clients life and work more then 200km from me, so you would be betting wrong.
  
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Aaron Doud

12 years ago

I think the crazy thing here is people are so worried about getting to talk to a customer vs. closing them. Yes you will talk to more customers with the cheese and whiskers method. But will you close more?

You are wasting your time and their time with this method. And that isn't figuring in the potential custoemrs you get interested in your ideas who go look for your competitors because they don't agree with your business ethics.

And I know a lot of small business owners would be turned off by this cheese and whiskers method just from the business ethics standpoint.

Like I have said before and will continue to say if you can deliver what you promise and are doing "local" why are you not local? Why are you not getting out there and talking to business owners in person? They want someone they can trust. It's not hard to get their attention if you respect their time and you show them you can help them get more business.

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electronik69

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Aaron Doud

I think the crazy thing here is people are so worried about getting to talk to a customer vs. closing them. Yes you will talk to more customers with the cheese and whiskers method. But will you close more?

You are wasting your time and their time with this method. And that isn't figuring in the potential custoemrs you get interested in your ideas who go look for your competitors because they don't agree with your business ethics.

And I know a lot of small business owners would be turned off by this cheese and whiskers method just from the business ethics standpoint.

Like I have said before and will continue to say if you can deliver what you promise and are doing "local" why are you not local? Why are you not getting out there and talking to business owners in person? They want someone they can trust. It's not hard to get their attention if you respect their time and you show them you can help them get more business.

Aaron I completely agree with you about closing them you still have to know how to sell yourself, but in terms of positioning I think C&W is the best way to do it when you are coming in cold.

Now in terms of Ethics I beg to differ, unlike most of the people in this thread I have tested this method here are my results

100 emails sent
30 responses (somewhat surprising)
6 Meetings set up (5 out of 6 CALLED ME!)

Now funnily enough most of the businesses who responded thought I wanted to start a strategic alliance with them.

And I just simply told them what I did, some politely said they weren't interested and then the other I just had a conversation with which eventually led to them calling me.

Now if you have no soul and love getting rejected pick up the phone and dial away!

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David Miller

12 years ago

Originally Posted by electronik69

Aaron I completely agree with you about closing them you still have to know how to sell yourself, but in terms of positioning I think C&W is the best way to do it when you are coming in cold.

Now in terms of Ethics I beg to differ, unlike most of the people in this thread I have tested this method here are my results

100 emails sent
30 responses (somewhat surprising)
6 Meetings set up (5 out of 6 CALLED ME!)

Now funnily enough most of the businesses who responded thought I wanted to start a strategic alliance with them.

And I just simply told them what I did, some politely said they weren't interested and then the other I just had a conversation with which eventually led to them calling me.

Now if you have no soul and love getting rejected pick up the phone and dial away!

So you had 6 awesome conversations?

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electronik69

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

So you had 6 awesome conversations?

I had 5 awesome conversations here is one of them edited for privacy reasons I am in blue they are in Black:

[LIST]
Hey do you guys do birthdays?

Hello Tim,

Yes, we do birthdays. Weddings, parties, anything!

You have the option of a birthday celebration in our restaurant with a limited menu offering a saving off of our a la carte menu (for example 4 courses - $67 per head) maximum of 30 people, or you are able hire our function centre which offers a range of dining and drinking packages and has the space to include a dance floor, DJ, megascreen and more. Both locations are over the water here at The Wharf and offer sensational views and an easy central location.

Please feel free to call me at your convenience for more information.

Kind Regards,

Great!

The other restaurants I have been working with are at capacity.

Could you guys handle an additional 5-10 birthdays a month?

Tim

Tim,

Yes, we are always keen on helping guests celebrate their birthdays.

I just had a quick look at your website, and it looks like you have a lot to offer. Please give me a call after Wednesday next week, I am keen to learn more about your birthday plans.

Kind Regards,

Now this is just one of the guys I have been talking to I will be seeing him tomorrow as this, some require me to get past the gate keeper and all that jazz so it takes a couple more emails and I am sure if you have seen the C & W model you know how to do it. Now the only un-awesome (is that a word) one out of the six was a guy thinking I was trying to do a JV with him (I asked if he did driveways then I did my bit then he thought I was some big land developer, and that took a bit of emails to actually tell him what I actually did) but he ended up wanting to meet with me which was great.

Aaron Doud

Firstly I apologise for the confusion when I was talking about cold calling it was directed at the OP, I should have made it more clear.

Thank you for taking the time to write that informative post.

Here is my opinion on it all, for me personally I am the kind of person who finds it very hard to create rapport with someone through talking to them, and I have great respect for people who can do that. but I can do that through email and non verbal communication.

And I feel the C&W method is a great conversation starter, because lets face as hard as it is for us "Offliners" to accept this not every single business is looking to improve their marketing, and we as marketers need to focus on the people who do want to improve their business and help them.

This method finds those businesses that are thinking about improving there business but they don't know what they should do and takes them to you, now what you do with those businesses is in your hands, and it depends on how well yourself which is a whole other story.

Now there are a couple of things I disagree about in your posts one is which that you think that business owners wont trust you when you use this method.

Now I am sure we could argue about this for days but to save some time, lets just say its a matter of opinion.

I don't want to do business with people who don't trust me, now if someone sent an email saying to me;
Do you do Google places

Great!

The other seo ....

I can tell you as a business owner I would be interested yeah sure I am biased, and I am guessing Aaron if you got that reply you would probably end the conversation then and there, no big loss I just go to the next person who is like me and will respond to the message positively.

I believe we create trust when we meet with the prospect do they really care how you got in contact with them, you most likely emailed their secretary had a conversation then continued that conversation with the owner. Now if there was a trust issue (apart from Aaron's business) what business owner has the time to waste time? Its hard enough trying to get them to give you the appointment. But even if they were on the off chance like Aaron, great! I have learnt about a business, I have gained confidence, and I have had the opportunity to work on my sales presentation in a real environment IS THAT SO BAD?

On the point of misleading them that to is based on opinion because as I have mentioned before a lot of businesses thought I wanted to JV with them, they thought I was in an industry related to theirs. Now I am sure there are businesses who think you are misleading them, why worry about them I wouldn't want to work with them anyway.

When talking about the 30 people that responded I completely disagree about the people that didn't respond.

Why?

Because what kind of person doesn't respond to that message, what their going to ignore a potential lead which they rarely get?

No the people who didn't respond need our help more than the people who did respond because plain and simple a large number of these email addresses were gmail/hotmail addresses probably forgotten about or lost, and they are missing out on potential business because who knows how many other leads they have missed out on.

And on a daily basis I am getting a couple of emails replying to me so that number has gone to 36 replies, why because these people rarely use email, and they look at them once a week compared to someone like me who looks at it every 30 minutes.

Now I am not saying this method is the best because lets face it, it depends on the person not the method, and I may have gotten lucky with those meetings who knows, it may take me 1000 emails before I get my next meeting but what I do know is not to assume anything unless you have tried and tested it yourself for a considerable amount of time.

If you guys want to be cynical, go read an offline wso about client getting that promises the world and delivers nothing, because there are way too many positive reviews for utter crap products.

Also big thanks to OP and Aaron for their contribution because to be honest when I started testing this I was a little bit hazy about it all.

But since reading this thread and writing this post I have created clarity in using this method.

Now guys I am not trying to convince you if you have another method great I wish you the best, all I am doing is stating my opinion and my results that I have gotten from using this method.

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David Miller 12 years ago

@electronik69 - I certainly appreciate the detailed reply, and I understand the reluctance to pick up the phone and prospect. It's hard to find anyone that has not had to wrestle with that aspect of sales.

Having said that, as I read your response, it seems that of the 5 people that you are speaking with, at this point they are unaware that your agenda is something other than becoming one of their customers. If I've misread that I'm sorry. If not, I hope you will keep us posted as this goes along.

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Aaron Doud

12 years ago

BBB warns of construction contracting scam | WQAD.com — Quad Cities News & Weather from WQAD Television, Channel 8

Here is another example of why you never want your prospective clients to question your ethics. If they think you might be a scam like this because of the way you presented yourself you will lose the chance to close them.

This is a local news story I just saw and decided to share. When we contact businesses a lot of them think we could be like them. That we could be a scammer or a fly by night company. Thats why I always say when starting out go local and go in person. People trust local and trust in person. It's just natural.

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vndnbrgj

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Aaron Doud

BBB warns of construction contracting scam | WQAD.com -- Quad Cities News & Weather from WQAD Television, Channel 8

Here is another example of why you never want your prospective clients to question your ethics. If they think you might be a scam like this because of the way you presented yourself you will lose the chance to close them.

This is a local news story I just saw and decided to share. When we contact businesses a lot of them think we could be like them. That we could be a scammer or a fly by night company. Thats why I always say when starting out go local and go in person. People trust local and trust in person. It's just natural.

That's funny. I signed up with those guys years ago and never got any results.

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YellowGreenMedia

12 years ago

Now if you have no soul and love getting rejected pick up the phone and dial away!

I love this quote...

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Aaron Doud

12 years ago

electronik69:

I am basically on the other side and have been for a long time. I am one of the people that you are trying to sell to and when I get "cheese & whiskered" one of the two things happens. One if I don't have time(aka 9 months out of the year) I just get pissed and moved on. I'm sure at some point some "cheese and whiskers moron has cost me real sales while I wasted time with them. But that is the nature of my business at times you follow the wrong cheese and you only have so much time each day.

But if I have time I will often waste his time back. Agree to meetings, calls, video chats, and etc. Why? Because I believe in Karma.

So for those of you doing the Cheese and Whiskers are you closing? If not maybe you are just meeting people like me who think what you did was wrong and like wasting your time like you tried to waste ours.

And I have never said I think cold calls are best. In fact I think most here will know that I am not a fan of cold calls because I think the percentages are too low. I always tell people to go local. That means networking and even cold walks ins. It is not hard to get a prospect talking if you have a service that will truly help him make more money.

Being on the other side I can tell you we will listen. But cheese and whiskers is not the way to get a client to trust you.

That said there are ways to do this that is Ethical and will be more clear.

An email like this below would not bother me(using the resturant idea from the video):

"I was wondering if you do catering? Looking online I could not tell if you do.

If you do, I believe we could help you get another 5 to 6 catering jobs a month. If you believe you could handle that extra business please give me a call and we can set up a meeting where I can go over all the details of bringing you this extra business."

Look at that I lead with cheese(any sales person who is worth a crap knows that you focus on them not you) but I never mislead them. When they call me back they are looking to partner with a company that can bring them more business. They are not expecting me to be a client.

And the great part? Even if they don't do catering they might email back interested in if I can bring them other kinds of clients. And I bet in a real split test a polished(I wrote that in less then 1 min) version of my email above would convert better than this "cheese & whiskers". Yes the cheese and whiskers will get more replies. But I am not here as a sales person to waste time on maybes. I want qualified leads that don't waste my time. You should too.

BTW I would interested in how many, if any, of the 6 get closed and if so on what level of swervice(ie $ made, work done).

Also want to comment on the numbers.
30 responses is surprising. It says that prospects are getting used to cheese and whiskers. Because truly using the method you should get 100% replies. A business should always reply to 100% of their potential customers. Strange that only 30% would. Makes you think that maybe the businesses see this as spam. Maybe that have seen it too many times already. Of course once you get used to spam and scams you tend to ignore them. A few real customers may get ignored by looking like a scam or spam but that happens and the real customers will normally email again.

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Aaron Doud

12 years ago

I really curious if you used Cheese & Whiskers as was prsented in the video or something more like what I did in my 1 min email I put in my last post.

Also curious like David if the people you have meetings with know what you will be talking about in a basic way. Aka that you are a business that will help bring them prospects.

And I think 36 replies to a pure cheese email is horrid. It should have been 100 replies since it was a potential customer.

Using "cheese" is fine but you have to do it in a way where you don't look like a customer but someone who is another business and JV as you said. The fact they felt you wanted to JV makes me think that your version of C&W was more like something I would consider ethical vs. what the video said to do which IMO was not ethical.

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kirbymarketingconcierge 12 years ago

the idea that I can contact another businessperson, under false pretenses,
and that individual will forget that and buy from me, seems so absurd.

at the very least (but most important to me) I KNOW it's pretentious.

IMO

If were at the point where your Target Market has no idea of presentation and delivery (bait and switch), will forget, that they can be manipulated like their a Blank Slate is also unempowering....

I like to think I deal with good people, smart businesspeople, and know we are who we hang around [your a product of your own business (and as Michael Gerber say's, " today, you are your business" ].

do you want clients that can grow their business and you benefit along the way OR clients so desperate for business they will believe anything and be easily led?

What will you do for money????
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- David Miller 12 years ago
  
  There have been no less than 3 threads about this particular "system" and I'm at fault for having started this one. Although my attempt was to show that learning and understanding the sales process is without a doubt the only "system" that will deliver results and build a solid foundation.
  
  As far as this system is concerned, some here think it's bait and switch, and some think it's a perfectly acceptable way to begin a business relationship.
  
  Now this thread IMHO has reached critical mass. There are some who want to do battle with this til death it seems. In the end, the people who have chosen to take advice from this thread have already taken it. They have decided for themselves if it has worked or has not. I would guess in either case they have discovered the truth and moved on to use this system or one that they prefer.
  
  While we "seasoned, knowledgeable, sales and marketing old-timers" waste our time arguing with minds that have already been made up. I suggest we bid this thread farewell and make some money.
  
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  kirbymarketingconcierge 12 years ago
  
  I was willing to follow along David, but I thought about those reading the thread and influencing them.
  
  I believe you can make more money doing it the right way.
  
  do fellow warriors want the (SL)easy, cheap, artificial, phony way or
  
  have a business that they enjoy, is empowering, and has positive social impact?
  
  I want money and happiness. others can have the same
  
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  David Miller 12 years ago
  
  @kirbymarketingconcierge - It's certainly not up to me or any individual to determine that a legitimate thread should not be posted to. I just get a little tired of having my "opinion" questioned.
  
  Do I feel the system as presented in the video is bait and switch: Yes
  Do I think it's taking advantage of people who are looking for an easy way to make a sale: Yes
  Am I tired of people who couldn't close a door in the wind berating the ethics of sales people: Absolutely
  
  When a thread becomes not much more than a sounding board for people to bash one another, I'm out.
  
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electronik69

12 years ago

Originally Posted by David Miller

@electronik69 - I certainly appreciate the detailed reply, and I understand the reluctance to pick up the phone and prospect. It's hard to find anyone that has not had to wrestle with that aspect of sales.

Having said that, as I read your response, it seems that of the 5 people that you are speaking with, at this point they are unaware that your agenda is something other than becoming one of their customers. If I've misread that I'm sorry. If not, I hope you will keep us posted as this goes along.

Thanks

No it becomes clear to them after the third email.

Originally Posted by Aaron Doud

I really curious if you used Cheese & Whiskers as was prsented in the video or something more like what I did in my 1 min email I put in my last post.

Also curious like David if the people you have meetings with know what you will be talking about in a basic way. Aka that you are a business that will help bring them prospects.

And I think 36 replies to a pure cheese email is horrid. It should have been 100 replies since it was a potential customer.

Using "cheese" is fine but you have to do it in a way where you don't look like a customer but someone who is another business and JV as you said. The fact they felt you wanted to JV makes me think that your version of C&W was more like something I would consider ethical vs. what the video said to do which IMO was not ethical.

I did it exactly the way they did it in the video, in response to your bit about replies I agree it should be 100 but if you read all of my post you would know why and something which I forgot to mention their were a couple of emails which bounced now these emails were been advertised on half page yellow pages ads what does that tell you about the business?

About the point on JV I'll say it again, I used the exact emails which were used in the video so by the second email the business owner thought I was trying to JV with them. I just think you are jumping to conclusions about this method.

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racso316

12 years ago

The other restaurants I have been working with are at capacity.

Could you guys handle an additional 5-10 birthdays a month?

So just to understand, do you REALLY and TRUTHFULLY have other restaurant(S) at capacity or is this another deception tactic?

And second, one of the issues with selling internet marketing to business owners is guaranteeing leads and customers. I wouldn't guarantee leads with seo services because you don't know if they'll get any for a variety of reasons, maybe the website doesn't convert, they suck at picking up the phone, you can't get them to the first page of google, lots of competition, no call to action, etc. What if you get them zero leads, or 1. What happens to the 5 or 10?

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John Durham

12 years ago

Thanks for the great post David. Do you realize that you have 400 thanks out of only 680 posts?

I think more people agree with you than you may realize! If you are like me you dont think of those numbers much, you just contribute, but I happened to notice yours... In fact half my posts are in WSO threads and the off topic section where "Thanks" dont even count... nor do posts themselves.

Anyway, good contributing.

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wilder1047

12 years ago

I'm not going to comment anymore on the actual concept of it and whether it's right or wrong.

I like Aarons e-mail above, although it may still come across as too salesy upfront, which defeats the purpose of the cheese and whiskers, not sure, just saying.

Now, I used this method exactly as they say, I dropped the "my other restaurants are at full capacity" because they aren't and I don't want to get caught by that down the road.

Anywho, I've personally got about a 95% response rate, and the responses are starting to trickle in slowly from the other 5% that have yet to respond..

From this, what can be guaranteed is that the subject line "Question?" has an amazing open rate, and now from here, you can now work on the copy of your actual e-mail message.

Because, I've tried the e-mail trackers that tell you open rates and I haven't had very much success with them being accurate in the past. So, now, you can use this subject line and guarantee your email is being read, and if it isn't generating any replies, you know it's your body that's lacking.

Thanks,

James

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ozwombat 12 years ago

I've done millions of hours cold calling, admittedly mostly as Sales for large companies, and also did a fair time in Credit Collection, and earned quite a name for myself. That was in Sydney, Australia, in the '90s. But in the '80s I closed a $62 Million a year contract, over the phone! Took me 6 months to get it, but I got it!

What I always find with phones, especially with no video, it doesn't matter what you look like, but it does help if you dress for the part you are playing. Can't explain that.

The next thing, as I pointed out to newbies I had to train is this,"It doesn't matter how they take you (over the phone) they can't punch you."
It doesn't seem to matter what time of day you call, even for restaurants, they may be able to talk to you. If not ask for a time to call back. On this I use the 3 strike rule, i.e. three calls and cross them off, but never throw them away.

If I get resistance on a cold call I always go in with that I'm doing a survey, and go in with the sales pitch when I got the 3 questions answered, usually works. But I've found, time and time again, that if they'll speak to you for a minute, openly, they speak to you for 15 minutes but maybe not right then and there, so I ask,"What time of day should I call you, and on what day?" 7 times out of 10 I get the right time and day. If they BSed me I just apply the 3 strikes rules.

It's always, always going to be a numbers game. The more "No's" you get the closer you are to a "Yes". Each industry sector or Niche is going to have it's language and you'll pick that up as you go along, just ask,"What did you say just then?" and they'll tell you.

I've never had any trouble getting to the DM, so long as I was polite, and complimentary.

One approach that worked very well was this,"G'day my name is Bob and I'm from XYZ web services, and my first job is to ask you,"What problems are you dealing today?' Listen to their problems, don't advise, just listen, and acknowledge them as they go along. Then when they run out you can tell them yours; you've got to get so many new customers by the end of the day. Be honest, don't exaggerate.

Always keep your 3 strikes list. Every now and then when you're sick of cold calls get out your 3 strikes list, and call it because they are not cold calls and remind them when you last called and who you spoke to. Ask,"You remember me?" "Hows it been since then?"

Always keep a record of the time you called, the last day and who you spoke to. It's especially good if they are happy to give their first name and ask for your first name, too.

If you hate cold calling then tell people you call that you hate it, and why. It's amazing how much care and concern you can get, and even a load of sales. But only if you hate it, for real. Of course if you love cold calling, as I do then tell them that, too. Most importantly don't BS. Of course, over the phone it's so easy to BS, but you'll find that you'll get a much better result if you are very honest.

One last piece of advice; if you can't take the abuse they are throwing at you or some thing you just can't take, just simply hang up. If you call them back you just say, "All the technology we have today and they can't make a decent phone line!"
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Adwizard 12 years ago

What a joke... I would have to say that while most of us probably believe in our product that we sell in all actuality we face a competitor that does the same thing a little cheaper or a little better. Do you tell your prospect that your the third best in the industry and that is why they should do business with you? Hell no!!! You tell them that your the best and that is why they should buy your product. LIARS!!! The whole argument about weather something is black or white when in fact its gray is rediculous when your lying to clients and telling them your the best bet for their money. You should just become a referral service and send them all to me. Then I will sell them the hole instead of telling them I have the best drill.
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taxicab

12 years ago

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the reference 'cheese and whiskers'?

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David Miller 12 years ago

@Taxicab - Apparently
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The big lesson in life, baby, is never be scared of anyone or anything.

-- FRANK SINATRA, quoted in The Way You Wear Your Hat
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