if you act like a 2 dollar whore, your going to get treated like one.

105 replies
Stop dropping your prices for your products and services.

Seriously , stop it, your not doing your self or anyone else any favors.

Everything you do is worth money, so start acting like it.

even if all you do is outsource and or use some templates

Its still worth money.

----

I just had a 6500 charge back , cause some ass jack called a new customer of mine, and told the guy he would do everything i would do for

300.00

and since he hasn't been with me long enough to know any better, he fell for it...

----

I am telling you guys, getting new business by giving away the farm
is NOT how to make your business grow in any long term way.

There is NO WAY , this guy is going to get what he thinks hes going to get
for 300.00 , so now in a few months he is going to be one more
person who thinks that SEO, Webdesign, ranking, ect

is a big fat scam.
#act #dollar #treated #whore
  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    FULL ON AGREE.

    People are always undervaluing their expertise.

    Live by price, die by price.

    Be a commodity, and you'll be treated like one.


    There are people making $99 websites, and people making $9,000 websites and people making $90,000 websites (yes, there are). What's the diff?

    Positioning and perception.

    "Oh they must have a lot more experience, expertise and references than I do."

    Nope.

    They merely position themselves as top-flight experts...and they get treated like it.

    Do you think your prospect has a clue how much difference in knowledge there is between the $99 site designer and the $9,000 one? IS there a difference?

    Probably not. Probably not.


    You can bust your butt trying to serve 100 clients at $99 to make your $10K, or you can get 5 clients at $2,000. And you'll do a much better job for those 5 clients, let me tell ya. You'll be treated better, they'll mess with your designs a lot less, and your self-esteem will thank you.

    Your efforts are bringing in a steady stream of qualified inbound leads for your clients. How much are those income streams worth? A LOT more than a piddly $99.

    Get out there and act like your an expert. It constantly appalls me how much more I seem to know about web design, fan pages and other crap than the so-called experts...and I don't even DO those things. YOU profess to be the expert. ACT LIKE IT. CHARGE LIKE IT.
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    • Profile picture of the author seotothecore
      Its not what you charge, but who you talk to... remember that
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by seotothecore View Post

        Its not what you charge, but who you talk to... remember that
        Well that's part of the problem: Qualifying your prospect.

        Should you be talking to this person at all?

        Or are they a time-waster who can't afford your services?

        Find out fast.
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        • Profile picture of the author LasseKohau
          Yes, segment and pick your market !

          Its in my opinion the 80/20 rule in action.

          Every market has 80% non-spenders and 20% high paying clients, who value and pays experts for the results, they are receiving.

          I pick the 20% segment.

          rgs, Lasse
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        • Profile picture of the author midasman09
          Banned
          In ALL my years of sales....ONE technique stands out above ALL others;

          I KNOW I'm going to get some "Static" on what I'm about to tell you (from the "Cautionary-Cats" who USUALLY don't Close sales....BUT can tell you WHY....what I'm about to tell you is ....VERBOTTEN!)....HOWEVER, I'll tell ya anyway!

          Sales is "Psychological"!

          When I started out with my very 1st sales program....I went to prospects, showed my program and....their 1st comment was, "How Much!" and.... their 2nd comment was...."Who else is IN this?"

          So....I QUICKLY LEARNED to....make up a Dummmy Sample of 2 or 3 other businesses who were "ALREADY IN" my program! In reality, they WERE'NT IN....my program...yet! But....it's MY business and I can decide WHO gets in for free and who doesn't.

          So....my programs ALWAYS had...2 or 3 businesses ALREADY IN my projects. However....no one asked me whether these businesses were actually "Paying" customers. If they had....I would have told them, "Nope! I put them in for freebies!"

          Again....NONE of my prospects ever asked if the biznesses I'm showing as ALREADY IN...had actually PAID.

          So....I went about selling prospects and.....when it came time to sell the last 3 spots....I went to the 3 I had "used" to help me sell prospects and asked if they wanted to participate.

          And....usually they did....because they could see ALL the participating biznesses ALREADY IN....and these biznesses had ACTUALLY PAID to be IN.

          So....can YOU see the Psychology here?

          It's based on the fact that...."NO ONE WANTS TO BE FIRST!"

          Now....don't give me a "raft o stuff"! If you're going to "give me anything"...give me some "thanks"....because I just finished another project where I filled in 12 spaces FAST....and at HIGH DOLLARS....based on 3 participants....ALREADY IN! (who actually did NOT know they were IN)

          And....I KNOW 2 things;

          ....I would NOT have gotten the 12 spots filled as quick as I did
          and....
          ....I would NOT have gotten as HIGH Dollars as I did

          ....if I hadn't already (get ready for the following Phrase that will REALLY bring out the "Legalistas" among us)....."SALTED THE PROGRAM"!

          So....from now on, when you hear the phrase, ""SALTED"....you know what it means.....and...it WILL get you business FAST and at HIGH PRICES!

          Don Alm....still "Salting Lists" AND....making LOTS of moola, quickly
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  • Profile picture of the author Bredfan
    Uggghh. I whore'd myself out this month. I admit it.

    Guy calls me after finding me online (a little local SEO for myself). The guy has a 1 page vistaprint site and wants SEO done. We talked and talked - must have had 3-4 phone calls and a 2 hour face to face meeting. I sold him a new website (1250) and a local SEO package at 360/month. My usual prices would be 2250-2850 for the website and 500 startup/400/month for local SEO program.

    He beat me up on price and I didn't hold my ground.

    Worse - he already seems like he'll be a demanding customer.

    A few weeks ago I talked to my wife about this prospect... I was saying "I shouldn't take this job." Uggghhh... tough being self employed. Tough to walk away.

    Maybe he'll turn out okay, but I still feel like a cheap hooker.
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  • Profile picture of the author jtooder
    I 100% agree, people think lower prices makes it easier to get client.

    Realizing (the hard way) that its not the case, in the end only a few of the bunch are even interested in what you offer. No use selling them $300 when it can be much more.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Miller
      This is certainly not a new thought, but it's worth mentioning.

      Some time ago a client (he's a client now at least) asked me why I charged nearly 4 times as much as someone else who had contacted him.

      I simply asked him why someone would charge 1/4 of what I was charging and what he could expect as a result?

      Just as a side thought: Could you imagine what a 2 dollar whore must look like!
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      • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
        Originally Posted by David Miller View Post

        This is certainly not a new thought, but it's worth mentioning.

        Some time ago a client (he's a client now at least) asked me why I charged nearly 4 times as much as someone else who had contacted him.

        I simply asked him why someone would charge 1/4 of what I was charging and what he could expect as a result?

        Just as a side thought: Could you imagine what a 2 dollar whore must look like!
        This is the key right here. Have to turn it around. It's not why we are charging more it is why they are charging less.

        To the OP $6,500 to $300 is a huge difference. He has to be doing less. Also why do it as a charge back? If you had not done anything yet it is a refund. If you had done your job he doesn't have a valid reason to do a charge back so you should fight it. Deciding to go with a lower price service after a service is rendered is not a charge back reason.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

          If you had not done anything yet it is a refund. If you had done your job he doesn't have a valid reason to do a charge back so you should fight it. Deciding to go with a lower price service after a service is rendered is not a charge back reason.
          its a charge back, because he called his CC company and disputed the charge. ( because the aforementioned ass jack told him too ) I got the report today , called him and was like... whats up.

          found out my customer told him everything , about what him and i discussed and the sales guy basically said, he would do it all for 300.

          as far as work done. in the credit card world, does not really matter
          what i did or did not do, he can charge back upto a day shy of a year.

          as far as reselling him on my service... forget it, i been down that road.

          dust in the wind.
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          • Profile picture of the author HypeText
            Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

            its a charge back, because he called his CC company and disputed the charge. ( because the aforementioned ass jack told him too ) I got the report today , called him and was like... whats up.

            found out my customer told him everything , about what him and i discussed and the sales guy basically said, he would do it all for 300.

            as far as work done. in the credit card world, does not really matter
            what i did or did not do, he can charge back upto a day shy of a year.

            as far as reselling him on my service... forget it, i been down that road.

            dust in the wind.
            I am curious...are you using third Party Processing or your Own Merchant Account?

            If you were on a Merchant Account you would have first received a "Retrieval Request" and wouldnt have just been notified of a chargeback.

            Figured I would ask because of your wording...
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          • Profile picture of the author Njenyus
            Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

            its a charge back, because he called his CC company and disputed the charge. ( because the aforementioned ass jack told him too ) I got the report today , called him and was like... whats up.

            found out my customer told him everything , about what him and i discussed and the sales guy basically said, he would do it all for 300.

            as far as work done. in the credit card world, does not really matter
            what i did or did not do, he can charge back upto a day shy of a year.

            as far as reselling him on my service... forget it, i been down that road.

            dust in the wind.
            Ken, I have a merchant account as well. All is not lost. If you have an agreement with the client stating what he was paying and for what, you will need to send it in as proof of the contract. Then, it is on the client to prove to the bank (actually Visa/MC, etc) that they were not supposed to pay that charge.

            Even if they have taken the money from you, you can get it back. Usually it will take no more than 6-8 weeks.
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  • Profile picture of the author HypeText
    In a potential clients mind their is a psychological connection between "Price" and "Value"

    Because of this the lower the cost, the lower the perceived value.

    Enter the axiom "You get what you pay for"

    There is a tipping point in terms of when does "Price" no longer support a realistically perceived "Value"

    Fortunately Customers don't buy based entirely on "Price", if they did we would all be screwed!

    It is up to us, as Professional Marketers, to establish a perceived "Value" with our Prospects that justifies the "Price" we charge our paying customers.

    Only when we accomplish this do we convert our Prospects into Paying Clients...
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    • Profile picture of the author danemorgan
      Originally Posted by Portlandrocks View Post

      Have you ever noticed the less you charge the more they expect from you?!
      Yes, yes I have.

      The best thing I ever did after setting up shop as a self employed web developer was raise my rates. At first I was trying to compete with all of the off shore freelancers, but realized i was fixing what they did wrong and still charging the same nothing they were.

      I raised my rates and found I was suddenly getting less grief from my clients. I raised my rates again when I started getting too busy and turning down work, and suddenly there was less grief again.

      I love charging more for the quality of life as much as for the money. If I had to give the extra money away, it would still be worth raising the rates just to deal with better clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by HypeText View Post


      There is a tipping point in terms of when does "Price" no longer support a realistically perceived "Value"
      It usually comes after you listened to some guru to tell you to charge 6k for a 5 page wp site and google listing, then another webdesigner says "Are you serious? I can easily do that for $500!"

      ...and then they get some guy in the warrior classifieds to do it for $150.

      Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

      yeah, your right, and i apologized for it.

      if your wondering why i did not change the title in the thread,
      is simple, I made the mistake, i'm man enough to handle the flack for it.

      again, I apologize for the word whore.

      again, i stand behind the sentiment that people should charge
      what they are worth.
      I apologize for getting so moved by it Ken... I appreciate your sincerity there. I know you are heated. I have gotten big chargbacks before, it isnt fun, and it makes you very mad for a time.

      I have cringed at half my 3500 posts on the WF, so dont sweat it....
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post


        I apologize for getting so moved by it Ken....
        Ditto.

        on the other hand, this could be turned into a very informative thread.

        as you and i have different business models, it might be worth
        laying out the pros and cons.

        a real discussion, not some debate
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        • glad you stated that ken:


          Commoditization is the process by which goods that have economic value and are distinguishable in terms of attributes (uniqueness or brand) end up becoming simple commodities in the eyes of the market or consumers. It is the movement of a market from differentiated to undifferentiated price competition and from monopolistic to perfect competition. (from Wikipedia)

          great thread and a harbinger of trends to come?

          the directory idea that John pushes could be ahead of it's time.

          Many passed on Walmart's concept.

          the directory as "the Walmart of IM Products & Services" is what I see.
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        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Ditto.

          on the other hand, this could be turned into a very informative thread.

          as you and i have different business models, it might be worth
          laying out the pros and cons.

          a real discussion, not some debate
          It's not just an offline thing, either. Lots of discussion has been had about the low volume/high price vs. high volume/low price biz model online, as well.

          Both biz models have merit. Both can be successful.

          I'd love to see some more discussion about it.
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          • Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

            It's not just an offline thing, either. Lots of discussion has been had about the low volume/high price vs. high volume/low price biz model online, as well.

            Both biz models have merit. Both can be successful.

            I'd love to see some more discussion about it.
            Biz Models:

            Best price
            Best product
            Best Service

            can't have all 3, make a choice.
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            • Profile picture of the author ShayB
              Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

              Biz Models:

              Best price
              Best product
              Best Service

              can't have all 3, make a choice.
              Sounds like my biz mentor.

              "Fast, good, cheap - pick two."

              But you know, there are people out there - biz owners - that don't need or want the $5K package (speaking about websites). They simply want a one page "online brochure" so they can put it on their biz cards and ads, and it has basic info on it - hours, contact info, location, pricing, etc.

              At $99 for a one-page site that my kid can put up in about 20 min, it's not bad money for him, you know? And it's a price point that even a small biz owner can afford and be comfortable with.

              It works out to over $200 an hour, which isn't bad money, in my book. Especially not for a 16 year old kid.

              Not exactly "2-dollar-lady-of-the-evening" money.
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              • Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

                Sounds like my biz mentor.

                "Fast, good, cheap - pick two."

                But you know, there are people out there - biz owners - that don't need or want the $5K package (speaking about websites). They simply want a one page "online brochure" so they can put it on their biz cards and ads, and it has basic info on it - hours, contact info, location, pricing, etc.

                At $99 for a one-page site that my kid can put up in about 20 min, it's not bad money for him, you know? And it's a price point that even a small biz owner can afford and be comfortable with.

                It works out to over $200 an hour, which isn't bad money, in my book. Especially not for a 16 year old kid.

                Not exactly "2-dollar-lady-of-the-evening" money.
                Isn't that where we are. the Empowered Buyer because of the Internet, technology, and global Reach


                they want more business. any business model must deliver what they want. and communicate whether your best price, product, or service
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    • Profile picture of the author ttteee
      Originally Posted by Portlandrocks View Post

      Have you ever noticed the less you charge the more they expect from you?!
      oh, so true!

      about what op say: fully agree. Will never understand why people would work for below market average rates (unless they really suck at what they do)

      why offer a 2000$ discount when you can offer a 200$ discount?
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      • Originally Posted by ttteee View Post

        oh, so true!

        about what op say: fully agree. Will never understand why people would work for below market average rates (unless they really suck at what they do)

        why offer a 2000$ discount when you can offer a 200$ discount?

        Biz Model : Scalability

        can what you do be replicated and make consistent profits without an increase in labor?

        if you stats show offering 1 discount over another creates more conversions (sales), then increasingly do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
      Originally Posted by Portlandrocks View Post

      Have you ever noticed the less you charge the more they expect from you?!
      Yup. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

      You completely attract the wrong type of customer.

      Before I meet anyone, I usually get it out on the table and say

      "look, before we meet, you need to know that we aren't for everyone. In fact some people say we are just way too expensive. So when we meet face to face, i'll be asking you a lot of questions to make sure we are the right people to help you out... will that be ok?"
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by iamchrisgreen View Post

        Yup. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

        You completely attract the wrong type of customer.

        Before I meet anyone, I usually get it out on the table and say

        "look, before we meet, you need to know that we aren't for everyone. In fact some people say we are just way too expensive. So when we meet face to face, i'll be asking you a lot of questions to make sure we are the right people to help you out... will that be ok?"
        So you smack them with a "take away" and tell them your going to pre qualify them, in one sentence, BEFORE you do anything??

        brilliant, simply brilliant.

        its also a classic sales manuver, i hope some people understand what you wrote and use it. unfortunately, i think most people are going to miss the power of what you just said.
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        • the "take away"

          it works
          is empowering
          maintains control

          qualifies the prospect to shut up or put up as a businessperson

          makes more money by creating value so you can sell it for 6500.00
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          So you smack them with a "take away" and ....
          He smacks them "right" down...lol

          Takeaways are an interesting subject. We dont talk much about that stuff around here, because everyone is scrambling for their first sales...and they are too busy wanting something they can quickly implement to take time for all this learning it seems, but "take aways" are a real cool move and they work on everything from car sales to getting a date.

          I learned of them interestingly enough, from a girl who I used it on to get a date... she was a "timeshare salesperson"...Later when I told her how I used it on her...she laughed and said "Awesome", and proceeded to give me an advanced esson on takeaways that was amazing and immediately increased my sales the next day.

          Timeshare is all about takeaways I understand.
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          • Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            He smacks them "right" down...lol

            Takeaways are an interesting subject. We dont talk much about that stuff around here, because everyone is scrambling for their first sales...and they are too busy wanting something they can quickly implement to take time for all this learning, but "take aways" are a real cool move and they work on everything from car sales to getting a date.

            I learned of them interestingly enough, from a girl who I used it on to get a date... she was a "timeshare salesperson"...Later when I told her how I used it on her...she laughed and said "Awesome", and proceeded to give me an advanced esson on takeaways that was amazing and immediately increased my sales the next day.
            10 days longer.

            it takes just a little more time to go from a "sales pitch", to I "trust this guy".

            when I sold investments I averaged out the time and it took appx. 10 days longer.

            50 brokers in the sales office.

            average for the room was 10,000.00

            mine was 25,000.00

            don't mean to talk about myself, but help.

            it is so good to sell this way. more money, more sales, more self gratification

            did I mention it's easier.

            p.s. - this was all over the phone
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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            Takeaways are an interesting subject. We dont talk much about that stuff around here
            Your right, but we should, its one of the strongest tools in the tool box.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

              Your right, but we should, its one of the strongest tools in the tool box.
              Indeed. I have tried to relay stuff like that before, but it seems the only people who participate are ones who already know it... What people want from "me" in particular is a way to bust out of the gate fast and get some quick sales under their belt to move them forward...So I primarily talk about getting laydowns. A newby can get one in a week and build their confidence.

              If this were a telemarketing room, it would be a different subject everyday, instead of a different "newby" everyday for me personally.... But I love being in that role and I love what I do, and I think it actually helps people. In any event , yes, we should talk about that more.

              I build entire scripts on it...the concept of the takeaway is one of the most powerful things one can use...

              An "EXAMPLE" of it would be to tell someone

              "Okay you does this sound interesting to you....? Alright I need to go ask my boss if we can do it or not... But Im not positive we have a slot left, some other guy across the room is writing up a sale write now...let me check the availability...BRB"

              And leave them hanging for a minute thinking they arent going to get it, making them want it more...

              Its even better if you tie them down and say "Look, if I go talk to him about this and get him to say yes, you arent going to leave me hanging are you...?"

              The takeaway is only effectively served with desire... They have to desire it, but that doesnt mean they are going to close.... desire plus tie down plus take away?

              Lethal combination.

              What are some more examples?
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              • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
                Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                "Okay you does this sound interesting to you....? Alright I need to go ask my boss if we can do it or not... But Im not positive we have a slot left, some other guy across the room is writing up a sale write now...let me check the availability...BRB"

                And leave them hanging for a minute thinking they arent going to get it, making them want it more...

                Its even better if you tie them down and say "Look, if I go talk to him about this and get him to say yes, you arent going to leave me hanging are you...?"
                that's a perfect opening for a TO.
                and sometimes that second voice is all that is needed.

                ----
                this obviously isn't for you, so i am going to let you go now...
                ( 5 second pause or so ) but before i do...

                -----------

                if you don't understand the potential of a mobile website , then you don't need one.


                -----------

                not everyone has what it takes to make the hard decisions, let me talk to your partner
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  • Profile picture of the author FormerWageSlave
    $6500 and no contract in place protecting you from something like a chargeback? I don't take money til they sign the dotted line that binds us to working together.

    Change your mind? F*ck you, pay me.

    Someone else has a better offer on the table? F*ck you, pay me.

    Don't want to pay up? That's ok, I won't lose sleep over it because I paid my lawyer to build the iron clad contract you signed, and he'll be contacting you before the day is over.

    "Starting work without a contract is like putting a condom on after taking a home pregnancy test" -Mike Monteiro of Mule Design in his talk, F*ck you, Pay Me

    This is a must watch. Changed the way I do business...

    **** you, Pay me - a discussion of adventures in contracts, negotiation, and payment | dvafoto


    Good stuff.
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    grrr...

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    • Profile picture of the author somacorellc
      Originally Posted by FormerWageSlave View Post

      I don't take money til they sign the dotted line that binds us to working together.

      F*ck you, pay me.
      This, absolutely, this. There is no way I would do any project, much less a $6,500 project, without a contract in place. The OP doesn't seem to care about this particular client too much, which is fine I guess - but for everyone else reading - find a lawyer and get a contract drawn up today.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    I'd still fight the charge back.

    What "reason" did he give the CC company. Also was this a business or personal account? And is he local to you?

    If he is local to you I would get on craigslist and hire some $10 a day protesters to picket him. That kind of behavior is unethical.

    Also the CC company doesn't want to deal with fake chargebacks. Fight this. He is abusing the process and it hurts your rating with your processor.
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    • Profile picture of the author zigzag10
      Goes back to the old adage about women...

      If you want a 10 YOU gotta be a 10
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      • Profile picture of the author HypeText
        Originally Posted by zigzag10 View Post

        Goes back to the old adage about women...

        If you want a 10 YOU gotta be a 10
        Thats not entirely true! It's more like this...

        Men are like Bank Accounts...the higher their Balance...the more Interest they Earn! lol
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by HypeText View Post

        I am curious...are you using third Party Processing or your Own Merchant Account?

        If you were on a Merchant Account you would have first received a "Retrieval Request" and wouldnt have just been notified of a chargeback.

        Figured I would ask because of your wording...
        we might have, my partner handles our merchant acc, deals with all that hassle, he just prints me a report. we have a saves department set up also, but if its one of MY customers canceling or charging back,
        i want to call them, cuase usually i can save them, or clear up any mis understanding.



        Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

        I'd still fight the charge back.

        What "reason" did he give the CC company. Also was this a business or personal account? And is he local to you?

        If he is local to you I would get on craigslist and hire some $10 a day protesters to picket him. That kind of behavior is unethical.

        Also the CC company doesn't want to deal with fake chargebacks. Fight this. He is abusing the process and it hurts your rating with your processor.
        the reason was "high pressure tactics "
        no, he is not local....
        and i have won disputes/ false claims, and hard reversals to , just have them call there CC company again, get a diff rep, give a new sob story
        which starts the same ball rolling again... and adds to the rating issue




        Originally Posted by FormerWageSlave View Post

        $6500 and no contract in place protecting you from something like a chargeback? I don't take money til they sign the dotted line that binds us to working together.

        Change your mind? F*ck you, pay me.

        Someone else has a better offer on the table? F*ck you, pay me.

        Don't want to pay up? That's ok, I won't lose sleep over it because I paid my lawyer to build the iron clad contract you signed, and he'll be contacting you before the day is over.

        "Starting work without a contract is like putting a condom on after taking a home pregnancy test” -Mike Monteiro of Mule Design in his talk, F*ck you, Pay Me

        This is a must watch. Changed the way I do business...

        **** you, Pay me – a discussion of adventures in contracts, negotiation, and payment | dvafoto


        Good stuff.

        I appreciate your setimant, however there is no such thing as "iron clad contract"

        we used to have them sign at the door for the contract, have the contract signed mailed back AND faxed, where they could NOT get a
        confirmation key, unless the contract was signed.

        contracts, don't hold up when it comes to processors very much.
        they will refund the money.

        court is a different matter. that is the only place a contract MAY help you out.

        and i have seen the fail there too.


        ----edit

        This post wasnt about merchant account, shoddy deals, contracts or what not...

        it was just meant to remind people NOT to sell them selves so cheap.

        its a craptastic business plan to whore ones self out
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        • Profile picture of the author FormerWageSlave
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          I appreciate your setimant, however there is no such thing as "iron clad contract"

          we used to have them sign at the door for the contract, have the contract signed mailed back AND faxed, where they could NOT get a
          confirmation key, unless the contract was signed.

          contracts, don't hold up when it comes to processors very much.
          they will refund the money.

          court is a different matter. that is the only place a contract MAY help you out.

          and i have seen the fail there too.
          Well, thankfully, I have not had a chance to test it out, I've always been paid... but I do know that I will not hesitate to bring a world of legal pain down on the first person that refuses to honor the agreement.

          As for the matter at hand... whether it really is bad for the whores or not... I do know they don't have a problem with it, so that makes it our problem and the solution is proper positioning.

          If you look at it like that, then you'll make adjustments to your messaging to position yourself better. You'll build relationships that withstand the whore onslaught because you'll have true credibility and trust.

          But if your solution is to tell them off in this forum... well, you'll be disappointed.

          The majority here are $2 whores who truly believe they're the Virgin Mary herself. You'll never get through their delusion.

          I'm sorry this happened to you. You didn't deserve it and this client lacks ethics and morals. But maybe it's a good thing that, in the long run, you won't have to deal with this kind of person.
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          grrr...

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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Ken,

          You are mad because he found a lower priced whore?


          Is this your perspective?

          I have met alot of pretty women in less than hierarchy type circles, who were less well "positioned" by most standards...who paint their own nails, and do their own laundry... that I thought were the most beautiful thing ever...!!

          I want to love something, not pay for "props".

          I should pay your rent for $50k per month why, even though you dont speak my inward language or understand me? Because you live in Beverly hills? Because you have to pay $1,000 per week to get your nails done? Because...because..., and that means Im getting a better quality experience? By whose standards?

          Some will say "okay, if you say so...".

          Why should I do that, when there is a girl who I actually like alot better, that flips my trigger, I enjoy my time with and brings me a better end result... who's rent is only $500 month?

          Lol...

          Im gonna break up with who Im not happy with, no mattter how "high class", and go for what seems perfect for me...

          Sorry I wont pay your "social class" tax. I only pay for liking what I see in front of me and feeling good about it.

          The tax means NOTHING to the quality of my experience, you better get some cheaper outsources if you want to make a mark up on me..and dont come using profanity, or else I might be tempted to make classifications...


          Here's my point:

          He was already losing sleep over the $6500 or he wouldnt have done it. I think everyone here knows that.

          Its not the $300 guy's fault - this customer wasnt committed. Its the customers character not the guy selling the service. If it were not that, then you would have to be the salesman it fell on for not nailing him down hard enough nor planting the seeds with him.

          It happens, its all a part of the ratio's and equations at the end of the year.

          Thats why I go for smaller ones, because you can sell more, and at the end of the year, if 20 drop off it doesnt hurt you because they are only paying smaller amounts and being replaced at a faster rate than they are falling off. You have to plan for this stuff. The same day I lose a $500 customer, I can replace them with two.

          However a $6500 ONE MAY TAKE WEEKS TO REPLACE AND LEAVE A BIG HOLE IN MY ACCOUNT, unless I have ten salesman out there pushing it full time. Then I have not only lost the account itself, but the two weeks it took to get it and the ones it takes to replace it, and the commission I paid my salesman...

          I dont even feel a $300 refund, and they are easy to replace, but a $6500 one hurts and takes alot to replace.... thing is, they ($6500 sales) come along so infrequently throughout a month... that most people could write $6500 in $300-$1000 sales before they could close one $6500 one.

          In the end, they have made the same amount of money, but have less to lose, less to live up to, more backend potential since they didnt sell everything up front, less accountability, and less headaches to deal with.

          Did I say "Less pain if a cancellation occurs, and less likely hood of it.?"

          That too.


          On another note:

          I dont know why I dont just break down and go into directory sites myself... that makes the most sense. You can host 300 clients on one domain worth the same basic template page design... Get all the SEO benefits of any other directory out there for your customers...and charge whatever you want. You can charge a hundred people $1,000 per month if you want.


          On another note...

          Just as many customers waste $6500 on a webdesigner with no ROI to show..., only $300 customers havent sold the farm to take the risk, BTW.

          I think you are mad at the wrong people.

          Anyway,

          Sorry that happened it really sucks, I have had it happen to.... This doesnt sound nice but having something like that happen once every two years or so is par for the course.

          In the end, if he was moved by a $300 salesman, and let go of the marketing plan you laid out... he wasnt sold. He was already experiencing buyers remorse, and he probably went out and DUG UP THE $300 guy, if his story is true, and if the $300 guy even exists period.

          Also they could have come to him Before you did... and he bought from you instead then changed his mind and made up a stroy about it... People will talk alot of S%&$ for $6500

          In any event the $300 gy is just out selling his service, he isnt to blame...

          On another note, I can put up a google places listing in 20 minutes... Is is right for me to charge $1000 a month for that when I can get it done for $50 bucks...

          Some of the people calling out "whore" are pissed because they are actually raping customers out there and it makes them mad when others offer a reasonable deal.

          I have found that greedy people anger easily... Not saying thats you Ken, anyone would have a bad day over this.

          Also,

          I think $300 is WAAAAAY below reasonable BTW, but for $6500 upfront, it better come with a Superbowl ad.

          Literally I have 10 guys on this forum I can turn to who will build me a site for $300 WITH places listing, onsite optimization and citations... that site I could resell for $3,000.

          In truth; someone else could have done it for my customer for $300 - My outsourcer.

          Should I be mad if he figures that out?

          You could probably sell that same site for $6k - and it only cost $300 at the Warrior Forum.

          Breath Ken, it happens to all of us "....I will greet this day with love in my heart...".


          Ps. Im betting he made up the whole $300 guy story, or that the other salesman was just a peripheral thing he threw in to help get him out of the commitment.
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          • Profile picture of the author jonnnyd23
            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            Ken,

            You are mad because he found a lower priced whore?


            Is this your perspective?

            I have met alot of pretty women in less than hierarchy type circles, who were less well "positioned" by most standards...who paint their own nails, and do their own laundry... that I thought were the most beautiful thing ever...!!

            I want to love something, not pay for "props".

            I should pay your rent for $50k per month why, even though you dont speak my inward language or understand me? Because you live in Beverly hills? Because you have to pay $1,000 per week to get your nails done? Because...because..., and that means Im getting a better quality experience? By whose standards?

            Some will say "okay, if you say so...".

            Why should I do that, when there is a girl who I actually like alot better, that flips my trigger, I enjoy my time with and brings me a better end result... who's rent is only $500 month?

            Lol...

            Im gonna break up with who Im not happy with, no mattter how "high class", and go for what seems perfect for me...

            Sorry I wont pay your "social class" tax. I only pay for liking what I see in front of me and feeling good about it.

            The tax means NOTHING to the quality of my experience, you better get some cheaper outsources if you want to make a mark up on me..and dont come using profanity, or else I might be tempted to make classifications...


            Here's my point:

            He was already losing sleep over the $6500 or he wouldnt have done it. I think everyone here knows that.

            Its not the $300 guy's fault - this customer wasnt committed. Its the customers character not the guy selling the service. If it were not that, then you would have to be the salesman it fell on for not nailing him down hard enough nor planting the seeds with him.

            It happens, its all a part of the ratio's and equations at the end of the year.

            Thats why I go for smaller ones, because you can sell more, and at the end of the year, if 20 drop off it doesnt hurt you because they are only paying smaller amounts and being replaced at a faster rate than they are falling off. You have to plan for this stuff. The same day I lose a $500 customer, I can replace them with two.

            However a $6500 ONE MAY TAKE WEEKS TO REPLACE AND LEAVE A BIG HOLE IN MY ACCOUNT, unless I have ten salesman out there pushing it full time. Then I have not only lost the account itself, but the two weeks it took to get it and the ones it takes to replace it, and the commission I paid my salesman...

            I dont even feel a $300 refund, and they are easy to replace, but a $6500 one hurts and takes alot to replace.... thing is, they ($6500 sales) come along so infrequently throughout a month... that most people could write $6500 in $300-$1000 sales before they could close one $6500 one.

            In the end, they have made the same amount of money, but have less to lose, less to live up to, more backend potential since they didnt sell everything up front, less accountability, and less headaches to deal with.

            Did I say "Less pain if a cancellation occurs, and less likely hood of it.?"

            That too.


            On another note:

            I dont know why I dont just break down and go into directory sites myself... that makes the most sense. You can host 300 clients on one domain worth the same basic template page design... Get all the SEO benefits of any other directory out there for your customers...and charge whatever you want. You can charge a hundred people $1,000 per month if you want.


            On another note...

            Just as many customers waste $6500 on a webdesigner with no ROI to show..., only $300 customers havent sold the farm to take the risk, BTW.

            I think you are mad at the wrong people.

            Anyway,

            Sorry that happened it really sucks, I have had it happen to.... This doesnt sound nice but having something like that happen once every two years or so is par for the course.

            In the end, if he was moved by a $300 salesman, and let go of the marketing plan you laid out... he wasnt sold. He was already experiencing buyers remorse, and he probably went out and DUG UP THE $300 guy, if his story is true, and if the $300 guy even exists period.

            Also they could have come to him Before you did... and he bought from you instead then changed his mind and made up a stroy about it... People will talk alot of S%&$ for $6500

            In any event the $300 gy is just out selling his service, he isnt to blame...

            On another note, I can put up a google places listing in 20 minutes... Is is right for me to charge $1000 a month for that when I can get it done for $50 bucks...

            Some of the people calling out "whore" are pissed because they are actually raping customers out there and it makes them mad when others offer a reasonable deal.

            I have found that greedy people anger easily... Not saying thats you Ken, anyone would have a bad day over this.

            Also,

            I think $300 is WAAAAAY below reasonable BTW, but for $6500 upfront, it better come with a Superbowl ad.

            Literally I have 10 guys on this forum I can turn to who will build me a site for $300 WITH places listing, onsite optimization and citations... that site I could resell for $3,000.

            In truth; someone else could have done it for my customer for $300 - My outsourcer.

            Should I be mad if he figures that out?

            You could probably sell that same site for $6k - and it only cost $300 at the Warrior Forum.

            Breath Ken, it happens to all of us "....I will greet this day with love in my heart...".


            Ps. Im betting he made up the whole $300 guy story, or that the other salesman was just a peripheral thing he threw in to help get him out of the commitment.
            I like the way you think. There are several rapists out there lurking in the shadows.
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        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
          Wow. Not sure where to start.

          The chargeback sucks. No doubt about it.

          But I really don't think this was a lesson in "whoring yourself out."

          You weren't the one with the lower price. The other guy is.

          The other guy that has your customer now.

          If you're going to be the high-dollar option, you need to make sure you have the customer sold on the value you're providing for that price. It's the posturing. The positioning. The selling.

          Look at it from your former customer's point of view.

          He is (supposedly) looking at two different prices - over $6000 difference - for the same service.

          Unless you've shown him the value of what he's getting from you - based on his knowledge and frame of reference - he'd be an idiot to pay that much for something he can get for $300. In fact, he'd think that you are the con artist, not the $300 guy.

          Let me give you another example.

          I know nothing of tech. I am the most techno-stupid person you'll find.

          So if given the choice of two techy gadgets that supposedly do the same thing, I'll buy the cheaper one.

          Unless I ask my techy friend what the difference is between the two.

          He'll talk to me about how both gadgets have the same size screen, but one has a much clearer picture.

          How they have the same memory, but one runs faster because of the processor.

          How both are the same color case, but one is impact-resistant, so it's more durable and less prone to break or crack.

          And at the end of his comparison, no amount of persuasion in the world would get me to buy the cheaper one.

          That's how you have to be with your customers.

          Show them why they should buy from you, and why you deserve your price, and why they'd be stupid to go with someone else.

          But the time to do that isn't after they've fallen prey to a $300 competitor. It's too late at that point.

          ------------------

          On the other hand....

          John has an excellent point. No shame or harm in not being the top dollar market, and there is a great deal of merit to what he says, and it's a solid biz model.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    so this cheapo guy is nicking your input and ideas too. O well, watch them both crash and burn , maybe work with his main competitor and destroy him (for the right $$$), else move on and dont use up any energy on the negatives
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Bump.

    Truly the perfect offline business model is a directory site. It incorporates everything offline marketing is about, it is consistently effective for the customer, it is the least responsibility and the most money.

    Also The best chance for upsell. to customers with no website, google places...

    For example:

    If you can close two people per day at a flat $97 per month, first month free, cancel at anytime...then you have a $500k per year residual income built within 12 months. It doesnt matter if one falls off here and there.

    You also have an opportunity to survey these customers and upsell them other services offering package deals... But for now, lets just look at the $97 per month:

    If you could simply sell one per day, 20 days per month at $97 (an easy close), then you would build a quarter of a million dollar residual revenue stream within 12 months, and be replacing ten customers for every one who falls out perpetually.

    What if you are lazy and only sell half the time?

    Lets say that two days per week you dont sell at all, but on another two days you get two $97 sales instead of just one... It works out the same.wrong, its still a great result.

    "Expectations Management" is the key. Lowball things so low that if they go insanely "not according to plan"... the projections still work and come out lucrative.

    Here is what one measly $97.00 sale per daymeans:

    20 sales per month = $1940. per month residual built.

    x 12 months = $23,240 per month residual income - around 120 customers...

    = $278,000 per year residual income, and you are still selling and creating more.

    This is really the perfect business model.

    I would rather have that than a handful of $6k per year customers. Makes 6k seem kinda cheap really.
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    • Profile picture of the author payoman
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Bump.

      Truly the perfect offline business model is a directory site. It incorporates everything offline marketing is about, it is consistently effective for the customer, it is the least responsibility and the most money.

      Also The best chance for upsell. to customers with no website, google places...

      For example:

      If you can close two people per day at a flat $97 per month, first month free, cancel at anytime...then you have a $500k per year residual income built within 12 months. It doesnt matter if one falls off here and there.

      You also have an opportunity to survey these customers and upsell them other services offering package deals... But for now, lets just look at the $97 per month:

      If you could simply sell one per day, 20 days per month at $97 (an easy close), then you would build a quarter of a million dollar residual revenue stream within 12 months, and be replacing ten customers for every one who falls out perpetually.

      What if you are lazy and only sell half the time?

      Lets say that two days per week you dont sell at all, but on another two days you get two $97 sales instead of just one... It works out the same.wrong, its still a great result.

      "Expectations Management" is the key. Lowball things so low that if they go insanely "not according to plan"... the projections still work and come out lucrative.

      Here is what one measly $97.00 sale per daymeans:

      20 sales per month = $1940. per month residual built.

      x 12 months = $23,240 per month residual income - around 120 customers...

      = $278,000 per year residual income, and you are still selling and creating more.

      This is really the perfect business model.

      I would rather have that than a handful of $6k per year customers. Makes 6k seem kinda cheap really.
      I don't really want to hijack this thread, but John, isn't this a little overly optimistic? The way you say it, it sounds like anyone could set this up and be making HUGE money.

      Can we be realistic for a minute and go over the actual HARD WORK involved in this? Some of my initial cautionary thoughts :

      - Google page 1 is already overflowing with local directories, even in Australia.

      - Yellow pages is pretty much the 'go to' guy for local directories. I can already see 50% of people saying 'I already have that with Yellowpages'.

      - Most local directories are free to submit to, let alone $97 a month with, I would guess, a terrible ROI.

      Care to share some of your own observations of the possible downsides of jumping into the directory market?
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      • Profile picture of the author Doran Peck
        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        I don't really want to hijack this thread, but John, isn't this a little overly optimistic? The way you say it, it sounds like anyone could set this up and be making HUGE money.

        Can we be realistic for a minute and go over the actual HARD WORK involved in this? Some of my initial cautionary thoughts :

        - Google page 1 is already overflowing with local directories, even in Australia.

        - Yellow pages is pretty much the 'go to' guy for local directories. I can already see 50% of people saying 'I already have that with Yellowpages'.

        - Most local directories are free to submit to, let alone $97 a month with, I would guess, a terrible ROI.

        Care to share some of your own observations of the possible downsides of jumping into the directory market?
        I actually share John's enthusiasm for directory sites. $97 for a listing? sure they'll pay it...they pay thousand$ already to sit in dust covered yellowbooks.

        Thinking like an internet marketer only gets you so far in the offline world. Too dependent on waiting for people to decide they need to go search for something. Thats what makes Local Google ranking and Google places almost as crippled as those yellowbooks.

        You want to have a mechanism that makes your directory / community website seen by everyone on a regular basis. Like a giant postcard sent to all households and businesses. Sell some ad space on it. Put some "curisoity driving" content/eye candy/newsblurbs on it...brand it for the website.

        All eyes on you baby!
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        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
          Originally Posted by Doran Peck View Post

          I actually share John's enthusiasm for directory sites. $97 for a listing? sure they'll pay it...they pay thousand$ already to sit in dust covered yellowbooks.

          Thinking like an internet marketer only gets you so far in the offline world. Too dependent on waiting for people to decide they need to go search for something. Thats what makes Local Google ranking and Google places almost as crippled as those yellowbooks.

          You want to have a mechanism that makes your directory / community website seen by everyone on a regular basis. Like a giant postcard sent to all households and businesses. Sell some ad space on it. Put some "curisoity driving" content/eye candy/newsblurbs on it...brand it for the website.

          All eyes on you baby!
          I like this idea.

          You could couple this with Bob Ross's WSO (I don't have it, but I've read enough about it to get the gist) and have a powerful combination on your hands.

          Edited to add:

          Holy cats. I just had an idea that's a twist of what you're doing that ties in perfectly with I already do. I can't believe I haven't thought of it before.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Miller
        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        I don't really want to hijack this thread, but John, isn't this a little overly optimistic? The way you say it, it sounds like anyone could set this up and be making HUGE money.

        Can we be realistic for a minute and go over the actual HARD WORK involved in this? Some of my initial cautionary thoughts :

        - Google page 1 is already overflowing with local directories, even in Australia.

        - Yellow pages is pretty much the 'go to' guy for local directories. I can already see 50% of people saying 'I already have that with Yellowpages'.

        - Most local directories are free to submit to, let alone $97 a month with, I would guess, a terrible ROI.

        Care to share some of your own observations of the possible downsides of jumping into the directory market?
        @payoman - Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been on this forum asking for help, advice, and assorted information about selling websites?

        Ummmm....doesn't everyone already have a website?
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        I don't really want to hijack this thread, but John, isn't this a little overly optimistic? The way you say it, it sounds like anyone could set this up and be making HUGE money.

        Can we be realistic for a minute and go over the actual HARD WORK involved in this? Some of my initial cautionary thoughts :

        - Google page 1 is already overflowing with local directories, even in Australia.

        - Yellow pages is pretty much the 'go to' guy for local directories. I can already see 50% of people saying 'I already have that with Yellowpages'.

        - Most local directories are free to submit to, let alone $97 a month with, I would guess, a terrible ROI.

        Care to share some of your own observations of the possible downsides of jumping into the directory market?
        Let me ask you a basic question because this is what it all comes down to... Can you manage to make 1 single $97 sale per day?

        Thats the cold hard fact, if anything I think Im lowballing. If you have a ranking niche directory site, or can have one buiolt for a few hundred dollars...then the only thing left is making a single $97. sale per day... the rest is easy math... You are a millionaire.

        The problem is that we start off on that track, then someone comes along and calls us a whore and steals our focus from our dreams...and makes us think we are doing it the small way...when in actuality our way is much more lucrative. Just ask Ken about now.

        Why do you think ATT doesnt sell 6k sites, is it because they are dumb?

        No its because they want to be scalable so their millions in profits and website saleswork out over the numbers in averages... and so they can employ average people to sell the crap out them!

        Read it again, and see whats unrealistic about it?

        Originally Posted by David Miller View Post

        @John Durham - my statement about everyone having a website was directed at payoman....in regard to his statement that no one would buy a directory listing.

        I'm pretty sure you know my opinion or statements like that.
        Of course I do...I even know your phone pitch. lol

        David, it seems to be the same group of guys who are always trying to discredit people who sell smaller packages, and make 10 times the sales they do... and dont cry over losing a client...

        I will openly say to you on a public forum... I wouldnt associate with it personally, except to fight it with righteous indignation. Because they are wrong, most of them dont make a single sale per month, and they are all repeating what they read on each others blogs and spouting alot of theory, because they get pats on the back from their other "let them eat cake" brothers for it.

        The evidence suggests that making a single $97 per month sale every day 20 days per month will lead you to being a millionaire alot faster than landing one 6k client every 90 days... but it sounds glamorous I guess and the conversation of it makes people feel like they didnt waste their college degree, whilst our type of conversations make them wonder if getting it was a waste.

        I got this way from having dozens of marketing "consultants" come to my call centers over the years begging for an $8.00 job, then making suggestions all week long on how I should run my business...while my telemarketers smoked them all day and they ended up leaving because they couldnt live up to the quota....and yes David, I know you know this scenario well and could probably quote it just like I did.

        I guess if I were selling WSO's based on people doing comprehensive long drawn out business plans... then I would discredit me too....but this is reality here.... Im living proof and so are about 200 people behind me who couldnt make any money last year, based on these methods the consultants are teaching about closing at 6k. Too much learning curve, not enough learning by making sales.

        Ps.

        I wouldnt even comment except for the trash language stirred up my sense of righteous indignation for the little guys.... the ones who are all hopeful buying yalls WSO's and still dont have a sale 2 months later to show for it..so they buy mine and have one in less than a week.

        At Payoman:

        If you can rank, and you have a decent list... I dont see any downsides. I have seen these sites work and make people millionaires, and I have sold THOUSANDS of listings...

        If the market is saturated why dont we all giove up and call it a day?

        Thats a myth...sure 50% are going to say "No" everyday.... Make that 98% actually... Its sales. doesnt stop a salesman though.

        On the level of profit, on the level of competition, on the level of calls to be made, pitch to close ratios.... Whatever, its all in the numbers.

        I dont think you are challenging me payoman, but let someone else... Im open to smash these myths any day, with anyone, using real world experience in BIG numbers and small alike.

        Im not saying dont make 6k sales.... Im saying you will become a milluionaire faster doing it with $100 ones...

        Try to duplicate a 6k salesman 10 times.... Good luck. Especially when he is smart enough to figure out that he doesnt need you.
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        • Profile picture of the author ShayB
          @ John -

          My biz mentor has a saying:

          "You don't have to make a fortune by hitting home runs. You can hit doubles all day long."

          You and I both know that anyone with a decent script and the right amount of dials can make at least one $97 sale a day. (And the script isn't crucial.)

          I, for one, would love to see a directory biz model thread.
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          • Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

            @ John -

            My biz mentor has a saying:

            "You don't have to make a fortune by hitting home runs. You can hit doubles all day long."

            You and I both know that anyone with a decent script and the right amount of dials can make at least one $97 sale a day. (And the script isn't crucial.)

            I, for one, would love to see a directory biz model thread.
            the Mendoza Line in baseball. something like this:

            if you can hit a fastball for singles at an average of 220.00 you will be successful
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            • Profile picture of the author ShayB
              Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

              the Mendoza Line in baseball. something like this:

              if you can hit a fastball for singles at an average of 220.00 you will be successful
              Thank you! I wondered if he'd gotten that line from somewhere.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by ShayRockhold View Post

            @ John -

            My biz mentor has a saying:

            "You don't have to make a fortune by hitting home runs. You can hit doubles all day long."

            You and I both know that anyone with a decent script and the right amount of dials can make at least one $97 sale a day. (And the script isn't crucial.)

            I, for one, would love to see a directory biz model thread.
            Good, I'll start one... Just not ATM. Thanks!

            At Kirby "Much love Kirb". I think you are right, it has to do with business "mission", but the missionary in Washington, should not call the missionary to india a "2 dollar preacher".
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            • Profile picture of the author ShayB
              Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

              Good, I'll start one... Just not ATM. Thanks!
              Yay!

              *happy dance*
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

              but the missionary in Washington, should not call the missionary to india a "2 dollar preacher".
              yeah, your right, and i apologized for it.

              if your wondering why i did not change the title in the thread,
              is simple, I made the mistake, i'm man enough to handle the flack for it.

              again, I apologize for the word whore.

              again, i stand behind the sentiment that people should charge
              what they are worth.
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            • Profile picture of the author ShayB
              Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

              Good, I'll start one... Just not ATM. Thanks!
              *gently nudges you to start the thread*
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          • Profile picture of the author sandalwood
            Ken,

            Your opening sentence was:

            "Stop dropping your prices for your products and services."

            Since I own an insurance agency and we make a very nice living beating other ins cos premiums, I don't think I will follow your advice. We not only save people money but we give them 24 hour service. They have our cell phone number so if something happens to them at 2 a.m. that necessitates an insurance question they can get expert advice.

            So, I guess to give such blanket advice should really be funneled (to use an IM term) to a very specific topic. Like John said, ATT builds websites all day long for about $300. Hmmm, sounds like your competition's number.

            Here's another kick in the ass. Get arrested for DUI and collect the flyers and letters you get from attorneys. The common hook is price. No, I didn't get a DUI. My next door neighbor did and he showed me the ten letters he received from local attorneys all promising to beat the next attorney's fees.

            Back to insurance. We lose clients every month. It is like John Durham said, paraphrased, clients will move on. We really don't care because we simply replace them via referrals. Truth is that is how we get 98% of our clients today. Have you built up your client base so you can get referrals?

            The other way is we get calls off our website and from the phone book. Not many but about 10 a month.

            BTW, as an insurance agent I've been called worse than a whore so someone using that descriptive is lacking a proper pejorative vocabulary. The truth is we are all whores because we are sales people. All of us had to do or did something that we wouldn't normally have done to get the sale.

            Step over it. Pull yours pants up and move on. This stinking little blip on your radar just showed you a client you DON'T want. We find them every week. The difference, we have to give them a quote by law if they walk in the door. You never ever have to help this guy or see him or talk to him. He cancelled his contract with you. That makes it a done deal.

            We love it when one of these jerk waters takes their business elsewhere. We never have to deal with them again. Yes, we've had them come back begging us to rewrite them. The law doesn't say we have to do that.

            Please, don't take anything I am saying as a lecture. It is simple pure business world horse crap that happens to everyone. The only reason I made this post was because I'm in one of those businesses that not only can beat competitor's prices but has a super negative rep right out of the gate. I wanted to hopefully impart that it ain't you brother, it's them.

            The sale and your success resides in your head. You will replace this jamoke with ten well paying clients. I guarantee it.

            BTW, we have a website sideline business we do after hours. I don't talk about it much on any forum as it is only 5 clients deep and only a $1000 a month in residuals. To hear most of the WFers, I'm small potatoes. I'll save my bragging rights for when the 1k turns into 10k.

            Tomorrow we will be firing a $1500 pain in the ass. We'll even be smiling when we give him the refund. Neither my son nor I care to take any grief off small minded jerk waters.

            Life is fun if you make it fun, according to me.
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            • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
              Originally Posted by sandalwood View Post

              Ken,


              Since I own an insurance agency and we make a very nice living beating other ins cos premiums, I don't think I will follow your advice.
              When i got to that part i thought i wasn't going to agree with much of what you were going to say.

              I was wrong, i agree with almost everything you said.

              and johns correct, man you are eloquent

              Thank you for your input.
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  • Profile picture of the author JayNine
    Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

    Stop dropping your prices for your products and services.

    Seriously , stop it, your not doing your self or anyone else any favors.

    Everything you do is worth money, so start acting like it.

    even if all you do is outsource and or use some templates

    Its still worth money.

    ----

    I just had a 6500 charge back , cause some ass jack called a new customer of mine, and told the guy he would do everything i would do for

    300.00

    and since he hasn't been with me long enough to know any better, he fell for it...

    ----

    I am telling you guys, getting new business by giving away the farm
    is NOT how to make your business grow in any long term way.

    There is NO WAY , this guy is going to get what he thinks hes going to get
    for 300.00 , so now in a few months he is going to be one more
    person who thinks that SEO, Webdesign, ranking, ect

    is a big fat scam.
    Yuck. I hate that.

    People are constantly calling/emailing my clients with low ball offers. It's so annoying. That being said, I use the same tactics that were discussed earlier (1/4 the value). With new clients, it's harder to do (no relationship, like you said).

    Also, you may want to talk to your guy about how the payments are handled. I stopped accepted credit card payments from new customers for this exact reason (very similar situation).

    All in all, I've been there and I feel you. The only comfort I've found is that these types of "lowballers" generally don't stay in business very long.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    What a wasted post I made here today... really.... Deserves a thread of its own.
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    • Profile picture of the author globalpro
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What a wasted post I made here today... really.... Deserves a thread of its own.
      John,

      Never wasted, always good stuff.

      Thanks,

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author David Miller
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What a wasted post I made here today... really.... Deserves a thread of its own.
      John - Your posts are rarely wasted!
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    • Profile picture of the author Sharon Trainor
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What a wasted post I made here today... really.... Deserves a thread of its own.

      NO, not at all a wasted post at all.


      As cliche as this sounds there are two sides to every coin.
      I'm glad you posted, gives the people reading this thread another
      perspective on ways of doing business.

      I, for one, like the model you presented.

      Thank you.
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    • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      What a wasted post I made here today... really.... Deserves a thread of its own.
      No John. Not wasted. I'm actually starting your concept but a MOBILE version as part of a mobile marketing project.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    I think people may be missing that the $300 guy has seemingly been 'told' all or most of Kens ideas by the 'client' so the $300 maybe doesnt even know jack**** but will just steal Kens ideas that he'd already talked through and agreed with the 'client' . IP rights and morales dont mean a thing (maybe they been watching Dallas re runs)

    The client is a two faced ass for spilling the ideas , the $300 guy is 'possibly' a bit of a con job not up to scratch but happy to steal ideas and run with them.

    Having said that, wouldnt waste any energy on either of them , plenty of proper decent genuine business people out there who wont crap on someone first chance they get .

    Or, theres always reverse reputation management ;-) if you do want to waste energy
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  • Profile picture of the author iThinkhard
    but if you act like a 1000$ whore, you are still a whore kidding aside, I agree whith you
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  • Profile picture of the author ADG
    Hey Ken,

    Here's something to consider. Whatever you were providing in terms of services could be broken up.

    Start with something to gain credibility and trust and continue provide additional services over time that would far exceed the $6500 one time hit.

    I don't know how you offer your services or the history you have with this client.

    Even if they are a current customer, you might want to look at how you are escalating them through your product offerings. For instance, going $150 to $6500 might make a regular customer fell uneasy.

    Maybe having the contracts with penalty clauses, paying up some or all the money upfront along with instilling trusting value in the mind of the client will prevent this from happening again.

    This is one you may need to let go of. If they don't receive the value from the lower price provider, they may come back to you in the future.

    John Durham and ShayRockhold provided great posts above.

    Much success!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    and since he hasn't been with me long enough to know any better, he fell for it...
    Should be,
    "and since I failed at educating him about the hacks out there that don't have a real business set up and charge next to nothing for any project and find out its more work then they expected for a measly $300 bucks then end up not doing much of anything but continue to take your $300 bucks until you wise up and cancel."

    Ken, with all due respect isn't that a little more accurate?

    PS: Oh yeah and did you fail to mention that you are constantly getting new clients requested to fix the crappy coding and screw ups from the $300 a month guy?
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    • what does the marketplace say the pricing is?

      6500.00 too much?
      300.00 too little?

      usually (IMO) you can have 1 of 3 things, not all 3.

      1. Best price
      2. Best product or service
      3. Best Service
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        John,

        Your probably correct about the buyers remorse.


        However i stand by what i said about people selling themselves too cheap.

        I wish i had the ability to put my thoughts to paper as you
        and a few others in here do. It is not one of my strong points,
        however im going to give it my best shot.

        you mentioned being able to put a google place page up in 20 min

        lets use that example:

        That's something you had to learn to do. then when you had it figured out they changed it on you, and you had to re learn it. as a matter of fact
        every time google makes a change , you have to read what you can,
        make a few experiments until its fixed.

        to me that's worth money. to me knowledge is money, im the guy who had to learn it, im the guy who has to stay on top of it.... why do i have to sell myself short?

        because some one thinks its only 20 min of work? it might only be 20 min of actual work, but what about all the pre work, the the blood sweat and tears and the many, many mistakes it took to figure out it all out in the first place?

        Same thing for just about everything in the IM world, including just making web pages, everythign is so volitile, the technology changes so fast, the fads like social marketing hit virtually over night...

        It our job to not only see it coming, but make the changes on the fly
        for our customers... so they can be one step ahead of there competition...

        so to me, that worth a lot.

        I see a lot of people come in here, and try and start a business, and i for one love to see that

        but nobody has a successful business, with out trials and tribulations,
        mental anguish , loss of sleep, and self education, ect

        that's what they bring to the table when they make a sale.

        and to me, that is worth money.

        ------------------------------

        Now as far as selling a bunch of lower sales vrs higher end sales

        Every sale made is now some one that requires support, hand holding,
        telephone calls back and forth, design changes, complete reworks, ect
        all of that requires time, and time equals money

        I don't run a virtual office, we have over head, and lots of it.

        that's simply NOT a viable solution for us. i am sure it is for a lot of people
        but not us.

        -------------------------------


        A lot of what you said makes sense, yeah the guy might have buyers remorse, maybe the other sales man did not exist... it is not my first rodeo, im aware that happens and in this paticular case, i talked to the guy and i do believe him.

        Also in this instance, the guy has a LOT of inventory that needs to be cataloged, categorized and databased, with on the fly changes from his real world storefront.

        ( not quite a super bowl commercial , but a heck of a lot of work )

        as well as all of the standard e marketing

        it is NOT a 300 or even a 3000 dollar job.

        AND the ONLY reason i gave him a price break is he has a chain, and i wanted all of his business and this was the foot in the door. - I was going to razzle dazzle him for that price -

        i wonder what hes going to get for 300.00

        the only thing i know for sure, is he isn't going to get ME.



        As far as the word Whore, and about me bieng mad.

        yeah, maybe the word whore was a little dramatic, and i apologize if i offended anyone useing it.

        But, i wasn't mad, like i said this isn't my first rodeo, charge backs, refunds are all part of the game.

        I do however see a trend, that trend is to sell cheap, and i don't
        think that is good for anybody, i specially don't think its good for people
        trying to break into a super competitive business.

        IMHO , It devalues EVERYBODYS work, and it can be demoralizing to new business owners.


        One more thing, i don't think you wasted that post about the business listing dir, but i do think it has enough merit where you should copy and paste it into its own thread.

        that's some good stuff, it deserves its own thread << -- even if i don't agree.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Should be,
      "and since I failed at educating him about the hacks out there that don't have a real business set up and charge next to nothing for any project and find out its more work then they expected for a measly $300 bucks then end up not doing much of anything but continue to take your $300 bucks until you wise up and cancel."

      Ken, with all due respect isn't that a little more accurate?

      PS: Oh yeah and did you fail to mention that you are constantly getting new clients requested to fix the crappy coding and screw ups from the $300 a month guy?
      Russ, when your right, your right, nothing more i can say.
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  • Profile picture of the author EMuu
    I am a 2 Dollar whore...

    I recently got into Internet Marketing and a lot of what I do is working from templates or outsourcing. I started work with two clients... one doing Social Media and the other SEO. I charged a reasonable $1000 for a two month backlinking campaign with the one business who has a lot of onsite SEO and good history.

    The other client I charged $400 for Social Media overhaul and one month of coaching to help them get more engagement..... MISTAKE!!!

    The $400 client is an acquaintance is setting up weekly 2 hour meetings where we accomplish next to nothing while the $1,000 client is happy as can be and hasn't even asked a couple weeks in if there are any changes to the rankings.

    I know this might not be on par with what you guys charge or what have you... keep in mind I am very new to this...

    but I am realizing very quickly based on my first two clients....

    $1,000 client - Very easy to Deal with not a ton of work/headaches/gouging
    $400 client - Pain in the butt/headache/constantly trying to get more for free
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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      Funny how that works isn't it?

      Originally Posted by EMuu View Post

      I am a 2 Dollar whore...

      I recently got into Internet Marketing and a lot of what I do is working from templates or outsourcing. I started work with two clients... one doing Social Media and the other SEO. I charged a reasonable $1000 for a two month backlinking campaign with the one business who has a lot of onsite SEO and good history.

      The other client I charged $400 for Social Media overhaul and one month of coaching to help them get more engagement..... MISTAKE!!!

      The $400 client is an acquaintance is setting up weekly 2 hour meetings where we accomplish next to nothing while the $1,000 client is happy as can be and hasn't even asked a couple weeks in if there are any changes to the rankings.

      I know this might not be on par with what you guys charge or what have you... keep in mind I am very new to this...

      but I am realizing very quickly based on my first two clients....

      $1,000 client - Very easy to Deal with not a ton of work/headaches/gouging
      $400 client - Pain in the butt/headache/constantly trying to get more for free
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

        Funny how that works isn't it?
        I agree $1,000 is a nice price point, but at 6k upfront a client owns your ass. I hope you kiss up real well, and dont mind making a habit of it. Either that or you better be sure of more than just your ability to rank them. You better makes their sales too, and personally hand them thier positive ROI every month... They are going to have their eye on you.

        Not worth it.

        On another note:

        Perhaps all the major corporations should call small independent businesses 2 dollar whores and shut them all down because they arent worthy?

        You would see the collapse of America.


        Originally Posted by David Miller View Post


        Ummmm....doesn't everyone already have a website?

        The answer to that is "No" David. To prove it, ATT and other major companies (the big kind like all the "consultant" guys respect around here...) who (like a broken record here) employ cold callers by the hundreds, and even thousands nationally...still sell hundreds of websites to new customers every single day, using mostly telemarketers who barely made it out of high school and arent qaulified to do anything else.

        Funny thing...they (companies like ATT) sell them only for a few hundred dollars or less....

        Oh wait I get it..."their sites dont rank right?"...Wrong.

        Is there a guy in the WSO section from India who can do a google places listing and get you ranked for $100 dollars? Right.


        Another example:

        You would think everyone in South Bend Indiana has a roofing and siding estimate already too...but 20 years ago I was setting appoints all day long for a year straight in the same zip code they had been setting them in 20 years before I came along... and 40 years later they still are today.

        Websites arent going to be saturated EVER...and especially not in the next 20 years. I promise that every single day you get on the phone you will find people who dont have one yet.

        Show me a cushy consultant who can sell more than a hard boiled telemarketer daily and I will listen to him.

        You guys should be listening to Diedra Renae...a humble person who makes a phone sale every single day from home... you never hear big stories from her because she's a 'telemarketer", all these big parades are funny to people like her....acting like sales is some kind of "holy grail" or something... Its what many people do for a living every day...nothing mystical about it.

        The Arrogance around here calling people "whores" is less classy than the thing you are accusing them of. I would get my money back to because your energetic positioning with your customers here would make that seem appropriate. If you view the world like this, I cant see you getting alot of refunds.
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        • Profile picture of the author David Miller
          @John Durham - my statement about everyone having a website was directed at payoman....in regard to his statement that no one would buy a directory listing.

          I'm pretty sure you know my opinion or statements like that.
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          • Ken,

            I wonder if you DID, considered, calling the lost client.

            300.00 for a business that has a chain of stores?

            dosn't sound real
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        • Profile picture of the author Colm Whelan
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          Im going to post my "2.00 whore" business plan I laid out here somewhere else... Nobody's light came on and its a waste here. Such an excellent model too, probably the best.
          When you do, John, please let me know where it is. My lights came on stragiht away.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by Colm Whelan View Post

            When you do, John, please let me know where it is. My lights came on stragiht away.

            Yeah sorry I got to typing while people were posting and didnt read half the thread. It does seem to be turning into something very interesting and educational on both sides. I was more moved by the wording than Ken was by the refund probably.

            In any event I think Kirb is right, and even though the internet started with directory sites and the like.... I think its the coming new solution for companies who want to piggy back on each others status... You can really get number one listings on a directory site....easily. But it doesnt cost you thousands per month.

            There was a time when sellers ruled the market with prices, then ebay came along and put the power to name prices in the hands of the buyer. People arent mad about paying 6k , they are mad because you are usually the third designer they paid it too....and still havent gotten the results they would get with a findlaw listing that only costs $1,000.

            @ Shay, I thought I was the only one who still said "online brochure". lol
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            • Profile picture of the author ShayB
              Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

              @ Shay, I thought I was the only one who still said "online brochure". lol
              Apparently not!

              The thing is, it's a term that non-techy biz owners "get" - and it really doesn't need much explaining. So it works.

              In fact, they often send me a copy of their brochure to work with, so it kind of cements the name in their head. LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    John, if you're serious about directory sites, I'll partner with you and build you as many as you want with all the bells and whistles. I'll handle all the techy stuff. You simply fill them up and we'll both profit.



    PM me or email me if you want to discuss this further. I've gone down the directory site route in the past and my stumbling block was getting "asses in the seats". I spent 5 years as a financial advisor doing cold calls and came out completely shell shocked. I know it works, I know it's a numbers game but I can't lift up the phone anymore personally to do it. I totally respect anyone who can as they've got skills I don't anymore.

    Getting back to the OP and on topic. It does stink to have this happen, no doubt about it. But you've got to examine why and how to avoid it in the future. Possibly educating your new client on what to expect. Use this situation as a "story" to tell them about how you got undercut and how you felt about it. Tell the future clients that you felt sorry for the person as they just went from driving a Bentley to driving a Pinto.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    Ken another thought that other have brought up as well.

    Why was yours worth $6,500? What were you doing that made it a premium product? I will tell you right now our website didn't cost $6,500 but if we didn't use a service for the backend a custom coding of what we want done would have been at least $5k if not $10k. But the company we went with deals with our industry and can do it all for Less than $500 a month. In fact these guys are lower than the last company that we worked with(before I came on board) and does more. More for less always rocks.

    The key with a $6,500 sale is they have to understand the value. Might even want to offer $300 solutions so you can sell against yourself in proxy for the low ballers. There are all sorts of sales tractics you can use to solidly lock in a client.

    On another note why didn't you just refund this guy back or did he never ask for a refund?

    Also to John I agree I with your idea I never want to be the cheapest in the market nor do I want to be selling expensive stuff. Expensive requires work and you can't afford to lose them. if everyone is paying a relatively low and fair price you get enough customers that you can "fire" the PITA ones.

    In my business I would rather sell 30 travel trailers vs one motorhome. In the end the 30 take me less time often and pay me more. Plus I now have 30 people to send more customers our way. And since RVs have a 3 to 5 year buying cycle it pays to have more customers coming in as i can't expect the one I sold back for years.

    I think in business as a whole too many people try to hit home runs. They never notice that base hits get more runs and take less time.
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    • a 2 hour and the high priced hooker both make money.

      maybe it comes down to personal experience, passion, and business mission.

      the Small Business marketplace has room for everybody.

      they spend millions.
      they have to spend money to make money
      they get marketing messages that others are doing better
      they buy stuff that don't work or deal with Incompetence.
      etc..,

      so the little guy, the newbie, & the seasoned professional can all make a great living.

      does it come down to personal preference?
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    • Profile picture of the author HypeText
      Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

      Ken another thought that other have brought up as well.

      Why was yours worth $6,500? What were you doing that made it a premium product? I will tell you right now our website didn't cost $6,500 but if we didn't use a service for the backend a custom coding of what we want done would have been at least $5k if not $10k. But the company we went with deals with our industry and can do it all for Less than $500 a month. In fact these guys are lower than the last company that we worked with(before I came on board) and does more. More for less always rocks.

      The key with a $6,500 sale is they have to understand the value. Might even want to offer $300 solutions so you can sell against yourself in proxy for the low ballers. There are all sorts of sales tractics you can use to solidly lock in a client.

      On another note why didn't you just refund this guy back or did he never ask for a refund?

      Also to John I agree I with your idea I never want to be the cheapest in the market nor do I want to be selling expensive stuff. Expensive requires work and you can't afford to lose them. if everyone is paying a relatively low and fair price you get enough customers that you can "fire" the PITA ones.

      In my business I would rather sell 30 travel trailers vs one motorhome. In the end the 30 take me less time often and pay me more. Plus I now have 30 people to send more customers our way. And since RVs have a 3 to 5 year buying cycle it pays to have more customers coming in as i can't expect the one I sold back for years.

      I think in business as a whole too many people try to hit home runs. They never notice that base hits get more runs and take less time.
      Here is the issue at the root of the problem...

      At $6500, Company A feels they are offering an Apple

      At $300, Company A feels Company B is offering an Orange

      Mr. Business Owner is comparing the Offerings of Company A and Company B ...and $300 makes more sense.

      Why?

      Because in Mr. Business Owners Mind he is comparing two Oranges...

      Where Company A feels he is comparing Apples & Oranges...

      At the end of the Day...it Doesnt matter what company A thinks or Feels...

      What Mr Business Owner thinks is all that matters!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I will bet when ebay empowered buyers by letting them have a say in what was worth what to them, , that alot of companies thought it wouldnt have an impact, but now every pawn shop in America rates all of their buys and sells off what the ebay market says it will pay. It has changed the way we buy and sell tremendously.

    When a business owner is paying you thousands of dollars per month for the same ROI someone else gets at $97 in a directory ... Then of course he is going to wonder...Also its easier...they dont have to headaceh with meeting you over design plans, and meetings, involving their staff... They just want to pay the $97, tell you the basics, let you write the copy (most of the time) and forget it, and hopefully your listing is good... if not, they let it go for three more months because its only $97., and things could pick up anytime in the first year...

    70- 80% dont cancel at all EVER, and 90% never call you back even once after the sale. Most will continue for years based on the "chance" that the site may start ranking... because at 97 its worth a chance.

    I like that.

    I think most small business owners prefer to deal with people who arent making big parades, or requiring alot of energy, let alone finances. Some buy ONLY because you are high priced, its true...but they are "generally" the exception, not the rule.

    I promise hannah montana sells more ten dollar pink plastic purses than versace sells $10,000 boutique ones People who can spend 10k on a purse happen, but they are few and far between..

    Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

    Isn't that where we are. the Empowered Buyer because of the Internet, technology, and global Reach


    they want more business. any business model must deliver what they want. and communicate whether your best price, product, or service
    Good point. Note taken.

    @ Shay. I think so too. I just try to speak plain so they dont have to scratch their head.

    I make these mistakes alot with writing (typo's, errors...long sentences), but everytime a person gets "hung up" on something you said they dont move forward in the conversation with you until they get past it... So being easy to assimilate is better than being impressive but hard to understand.

    You want your customer to be able to keep up with you and following you in real time, or else your presentation is ineffective.

    Alot of folks are just repeating info they heard here on the WF and are WAAAAAAAAY out of touch with how biz owners talk offline.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Apparently I'm still not charging enough because I just lost a proposal I submitted that was for a custom WP designed theme, custom facebook fan page and a mobile site. All of which as we know isn't that hard to do.

    My bid? Exactly $6500 for design and only deployment, it didn't include content creation and seo.

    Who did I loose it too?

    Another company who bid MORE!

    Nothing more to say, I'm raising my prices even more now.
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  • Profile picture of the author ruudbwai
    interesting thread, ive set up a web design agency, and my own brother told me I was really underpricing myself...i've also started to notice a pattern with some clients adding to specifications after a price is agreed upon, and since I don't take deposits, I've had to respectfully decline alot of projects I was working on after el cheapo clients tried to pile on features that weren't in the original plan. ..so dont lose out on the moolah cash-wise, but time-wise, I'm taking a pounding.

    as a benchmark, can some warriors tell me how much they would charge clients for this store - ekbeauty dot co dot uk , i cant post links yet because I have less than 15 posts or whatever.

    I think my pricing structure is doing me more harm than good. ...im a coder, not a businessman, so my good intentions with reasonable prices may be coming across as too cheap with clients, making them think twice, or think my deals are too good to be true?

    Any ideas?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Man, Tom, you are concise and full of goodness... You communicate so clearly. Love that style, you share it in common with Paul Myers.

    What an awsome post. Yeah I got hit awhile back...and the next week, I had MORE than 10, literally, Attorneys pumping my mailbox full of better prices than the next guy. Im sure they dont do this for no reason.

    In fact, DM can appreciate this; It seems that "law" offices, are increasingly becoming more like Sales offices. They spend more energy upselling and trying to get new clients than servicing the ones they have it seems and actually practicing "law".
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    • Profile picture of the author sandalwood
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Man, Tom, you are concise and full of goodness... You communicate so clearly. Love that style, you share it in common with Paul Myers.

      What an awsome post. Yeah I got hit awhile back...and the next week, I had MORE than 10, literally, Attorneys pumping my mailbox full of better prices than the next guy. Im sure they dont do this for no reason.

      In fact, DM can appreciate this; It seems that "law" offices, are increasingly becoming more like Sales offices. They spend more energy upselling and trying to get new clients than servicing the ones they have it seems and actually practicing "law".
      John,

      Not to take anything away from Ken's post as his point and our opinions certainly have splattered this thread with, what are they calling it, pink slime :-).

      I don't know if you are pulling my leg or not but let's face facts. Whether we like it or not, know it or not, believe it or not, we are selling not only a product but ourselves. Sometimes the ourselves part of the equation is gonna get kicked square in the crotch.

      We both have been there, done that and probably had the same reaction:

      "My God, that hurt".

      But it's like my mentor use to say, pull up your pants and move on. You just learned a valuable lesson. Of course having tears in my eyes was the only thing I could concentrate on. I've read other posts by Ken and he seems like the kind of person who won't let a jackass slow him down.

      Sorry about your DUI but if where you live is like out here, you have a lot of glass to walk on before THE MAN forgives you. Try crying in court and calling the officer who stopped you a whore to the judge...

      All the best to you and Ken.

      Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Tom. this is off the subject, but you should really have a link to your agency in your sig... I know thats not your bag but, with all the great advice you dispel around here it seems like alot of us would want to get Insurance from you.

    If you had a site up I would be taking my son in law to it right now to get an auto quote. I have often thought that if I were an agent I could specialize in individual health for homeworkers and probably help alot of people in forums like this. It may just nix the whole need for other advertising. I may be wrong but it seems like it would generate prospects every single day.

    Off the subject again, but when people are interested in your posts, they DO click your link. It seems like you may be leaving some Biz on the table... of course there is always the risk of being called a whore for advertising something you are good at. Lol.

    With your sense of professional ethics that I have come to know over the last year or two, you could probably really help people. Especially home workers with limited options...

    Do you know that Insurance is one of the main reasons alot of people stay at their job even though they make enough money to live otherwise?

    Just food for thought, not to cheapen the perception of the valuable things you are sharing. I know thats not your bag again, but it should be one of them IMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author sandalwood
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Tom. this is off the subject, but you should really have a link to your agency in your sig... I know thats not your bag but, with all the great advice you dispel around here it seems like alot of us would want to get Insurance from you.

      If you had a site up I would be taking my son in law to it right now to get an auto quote. I have often thought that if I were an agent I could specialize in individual health for homeworkers and probably help alot of people in forums like this. It may just nix the whole need for other advertising. I may be wrong but it seems like it would generate prospects every single day.

      Off the subject again, but when people are interested in your posts, they DO click your link. It seems like you may be leaving some Biz on the table... of course there is always the risk of being called a whore for advertising something you are good at. Lol.

      With your sense of professional ethics that I have come to know over the last year or two, you could probably really help people. Especially home workers with limited options...

      Do you know that Insurance is one of the main reasons alot of people stay at their job even though they make enough money to live otherwise?

      Just food for thought, not to cheapen the perception of the valuable things you are sharing. I know thats not your bag again, but it should be one of them IMO.
      John,

      I appreciate your kind words. We do have a site and it is Home of Nevada Insurance. Your son can get a quote if he lives in one of the states the company writes business. Probably the biggest reason I didn't put my agency's url in my sig is the licensing for all the states varies like you would not believe. My son and I, he co-owns the agency, decided NV was good enough for us, and it has been.

      Health insurance for homeworkers is one of those little goodies people can get from a company's website. I write for Aetna so I will advise anyone who wants to check for HI, go directly to Aetna - Health Insurance, Dental, Pharmacy, Group Life and Disability Insurance. That is their site and if you decide to get a policy, I won't make a dime and don't care that I'm not making a dime.

      I used them as my example as they have some of the lowest priced premiums. I don't know what the Supreme Court will decide on Obamacare but if I needed insurance I wouldn't wait for the enlightened 9 to make a decision. I'd be checking the Internet and getting quotes.

      Believe it or not I put the healing ointment in my sig because IT WORKS. Not to be a commercial but my wife suffers from migraines. The ointment stops them cold. That is far better than anything we've found.

      As for being called a whore for advertising, I also spent 20 in the USAF partly during the Viet Nam era and 6 as a stockbroker with 2 major Wall St firms. I'll let you just start shouting out names and I bet you don't miss one :-).

      As always, great reading what you have to say. To boot, I even believe some of it...

      Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Darn, out of thanks for the day. Thanks though.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Im still wondering if someone would pay you $1,000 to act like a 2.00 hooker. You know like role playing? All the benefits of feeling cheap and dirty but not actually "getting" that way?

    Maybe a niche? Is that Hooker a USP?

    @ Shay, prob will do that tomorrow. I have posted my tail off today... lol Thanks for the reminder. Its a good topic.
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Im still wondering if someone would pay you $1,000 to act like a 2.00 hooker. You know like role playing? All the benefits of feeling cheap and dirty but not actually "getting" that way?

      Maybe a niche? Is that Hooker a USP?

      @ Shay, prob will do that tomorrow. I have posted my tail off today... lol Thanks for the reminder. Its a good topic.
      About the first part - people pay big bucks for specialized niches/roleplaying hookers.

      About the second part - I look forward to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Some people choose to dine at fine restaurants paying £100 + for the experience, others will look at the menu prices, gasp and go choose a BOGOF deal and only dine out then .

    Both eateries make profits ,both have regular clientelle, the point is, the fine dining restaurant knows who its targets are, they know there are people out there happy to pay £100+ for a meal experience, and these people are well aware they are paying the high end prices, they know they can get a meal for £5 , but they choose to spend the £100+ .
    So if you charge $6k+ , you have to find the businesses that know they can get it for less than £1k but understand why its worth paying you the $6k + , just like the fine diners, these people are out there . But if you hook a BOGOF deals level of business , charge them $6k + and then they discover they can get it for < $1k , dont be surprised when they get up and leave before you've delivered the starter
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    • Profile picture of the author David Miller
      Please stop giving hookers a bad name. Next thing you know they'll be cold calling!
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
    For those of you who insist on selling your expertise for an hourly rate that ignores the specialized knowlege value backing it up, I give you this.

    There was a company who was getting a boiler installed on a ship. They could not get it to fit properly, no matter how hard they tried. The fitting simply would not go together. An old timer sat, watching their troubles with a smile on his face.

    Eventually, one of the supervisors noticed him, and asked him what he found so amusing. He said that they had a full crew trying to install the boiler, yet after half a day's work, they could not not manage to get it to fit together correctly.

    The boss asked him if he thought he coul do better. He said yes, tat for$10,000, he would be happy to put it together for them. The man in charge reflected on the labor they'd already wasted up to that point, employing a full crew of men for half a day with nothing to show for it, and agreed to the old timer's terms.

    He walked up to the boiler, still sitting on the fittings, picked up a large hammer, and struck it hard on the side of one of the pipe flanges. The massive units crashed into place perfectly. The old man turned to the boss man; "That'll be $10,000."

    The boss protested. "But that only took you a few seconds." The man shot back, "Yes, but it would have taken your crew the rest of the day."

    The moral of the story? It's the value of what you know, how long it took you to acquire it, and what it is worth to others, not how long it takes you to apply it.

    My .o2c
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    I think its apples and opranges as was suggested earlier. Clearly a person with more business acumen is going to be drawn to something where they can use it... Those are the apples.

    The oranges are a big group of people who dont feel so presentable , nor that they have developed enough business acumen to be consultants, so they go into a different kind of sales... and its not a bad kind, itss not even the "less money" kind...its the kind that makes the world go round and reaches masses instead of select customers.

    I initially took to phone sales because I HATED face to face sales, and failed at it initially... In fact I had my self esteem beaten so bad by it that I couldnt even sell on the PHONE the first month I started... but after that wore off...the "quick pithces" on the phone I found were easily assimilated, I picked up a new peice of the puzzle with almost every call, and there were lots of calls... and I learned all the other stuff really fast once I got traction, eventually I was able to make more consultative type sales and face to face...

    Never would have happened were it nbot for getting on the phone doing quick pitches for a year.

    Thats why I love teaching telemarketers, because it gives me the chance to do the same for them... Alot of people arent really failures, who feel like they are, they just assimilate information in smaller amounts at a time, and they need to start with something easy to assimilate...

    That doesnt make them dumb either, just a different personality "type".

    In any event, as an adult salesperson, I still prefer the quick pitch because I dont like scmoozing a whole lot, and Im not looking to have coffee with my clients 3 times per week or stop in and say "hi" everytime I drive by... They dont want to come to my house either. lol

    Ps. Kirb I agree with everything you said... Also, cool story about bein the top producer, and not just beating everyone else but DOUBLING them... Awesome.
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  • Profile picture of the author emrom
    You guys are right about price. But the problem comes from more then one place. We as Americans are getting attacked and or emails everyday from other countries (India, China, etc.) willing to do what we do for pennies.

    The new guy wants to build his name and product, and the instant....right now have to have everything today mentality fuels these things.

    I say, the best deal is the "NO PRICE LIST" deal! Find each customer, review their needs and make it work with their budget and what your time is worth. I feel that in the end you have won and your customer will feel they have won too.
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    • Profile picture of the author ronr
      Ken is a pro so I know he knows this and uses this but as been said it's really about relationships. The chargeback client probably just didn't have time to know how great he or his service was yet.

      Several of my clients say they get approached all the time for the work I provide for them. But they tell me they won't change because they trust me so much and the results. That won't work 100% of the time of course and you will lose some but over time it's the best defense against cheaper competitors.

      Ron
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    YEAH! Sometimes the $100 whore is better than the $1000 one! What gives?
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    I was thinking the same my-self....if both biz do the exact same qulaity of job. But Chinaman does it for $500 and USA man does it for $5,000. Guess where I'd spend my money?

    You guys are right about price. But the problem comes from more then one place. We as Americans are getting attacked and or emails everyday from other countries (India, China, etc.) willing to do what we do for pennies.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Usually the difference is between Apples and Oranges.

    Apples being those who've created jobs for themselves.
    Oranges being those who've created businesses for themselves.

    The twain shall never meet due to disparity.
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  • Profile picture of the author sureshots
    I agree with what you're saying! all I can say is shyt happens move on it's a hustle at the end of the day and sometimes you'll just get out hustled it's happened to me more than once, what's funny is every time it's happened to me the following month I made more money than I made the previous. Don't cry over spilled milk!
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  • Profile picture of the author sash024
    Reflects my thoughts exactly.

    Totally Agreed.!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Jordan Godbey made a great blog post today about this very topic in the SEO space.

    Don’t be an SEO – Be a teacher - ZoomSpring SEO
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