My Competitor Has Confused Me. How Is He Making Money?

by s62731
60 replies
Hi Guys,

I am a bit confused here. I charge $800+ for a custom website, and outsource them for around $100 - $150.

Now these are completely custom websites. Here are some of our works in progress:

-http://jaleigh.web-cast.com.au/
-http://demo.hrroofing.com.au/

Now one of my competitors is selling sites for $199 a pop, and they seem like they are very attractive. Now this annoys me and confuses me for 2 reasons:

1 - How the hell is he making money at $199 a pop
2 - How do the sites look that good at such a good price?

Here is his website: echimp.com.au

I guess this is the first of my competitors that has actually scared me. The sites look good and they're so cheap.

They offer 110% money back guarantees, and say it takes less than 30 minutes of your time. A very easy sell for $199.

What do you guys think? Is this a good sustainable business model?

Or should I not worry at all?

Cheers guys
#competitor #confused #making #money
  • Profile picture of the author MonteMichaels
    Don't worry about competition like that. Probably the only time that they will be offering support is during the 30 minutes of time. There is likely going to be very little customer support there, which is something that you would want to stress in your sales presentations.

    Edit: I just looked at their prices. They are baiting you with the cheap price, but if you want any additions you are going to pay for it. $400 for a logo, $120 to make it mobile, $25 for a paypal button, all of this is going to add up quickly and be much more than a couple of hundred bucks.
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  • Profile picture of the author LiquidSeo
    Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

    Hi Guys,

    I am a bit confused here. I charge $800+ for a custom website, and outsource them for around $100 - $150.

    Now these are completely custom websites. Here are some of our works in progress:

    -http://jaleigh.web-cast.com.au/
    -http://demo.hrroofing.com.au/

    Now one of my competitors is selling sites for $199 a pop, and they seem like they are very attractive. Now this annoys me and confuses me for 2 reasons:

    1 - How the hell is he making money at $199 a pop
    2 - How do the sites look that good at such a good price?

    Here is his website: eChimp - Professional Websites from $197

    I guess this is the first of my competitors that has actually scared me. The sites look good and they're so cheap.

    They offer 110% money back guarantees, and say it takes less than 30 minutes of your time. A very easy sell for $199.

    What do you guys think? Is this a good sustainable business model?

    Or should I not worry at all?

    Cheers guys
    Horrible business model, and I agree with the previous poster, he will disappear on his customers.
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    • Profile picture of the author EdKirby
      Originally Posted by LiquidSeo View Post

      Horrible business model, and I agree with the previous poster, he will disappear on his customers.
      Sorry, but I have to disagree. On the surface yes, it looks horrible but if you look deeper into how they are making money it's sustainable and even profitable.

      They are upcharging the whole way as Monte discovered and come on, it's doesn't cost anywhere near $15 a month to host a website from a host's point of view. I'll bet they get over 95% of their customers to sign up for hosting and make over $10 a month profit from it.

      Just my dos centavos!

      Cheers
      Signature

      Ed

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  • Profile picture of the author EdKirby
    I took a look at their pricing page.

    I can't find where it says how many pages initially, I'm going to assume 1, not sure what their "One-off" means. Because down below they mention $75 per page there after. So a five page site could actually cost $497, $197 for the first page and $75 x 4 = $497. So not all that impressive or scary so far.

    Next, they are using a CMS, in fact it's Wordpress and they are buying premium templates from Themeforest. You have to learn to dig a little.

    So after you break everything down it's not all that impossible to make money the way they are doing it but you didn't dig enough to uncover how they are doing it. I'm not trying to beat you up but you have to learn to dig a little and analyze what you find. I did this in like 4 minutes albeit it's not exhaustive.

    Also, they are making money from the hosting..I almost forgot to mention that one. It's a biggy. You could actually give websites away for cost and if you get the hosting you would make money every month for the life of the customer.

    I charge way way more than that for my websites. But then again I don't want to play with customers at that level. Too much of a headache.

    I really hope this helps. Don't be initimidate!
    Signature

    Ed

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  • Profile picture of the author Strikeforce
    I took a look at your websites and then I took a look at your competitor's websites. There is no comparison. I can tell at first glance that your websites are custom designed. Your competitor is using templates and they look like templates. Anyone with eyes can tell the difference. I wouldn't worry too much about these guys. You get what you pay for.

    Randy
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  • Profile picture of the author s62731
    Thanks for all the responses guys

    I don't think I should be worried either. The main thing that got got to me is that his sites look so good, albeit not custom.

    Perhaps adding that type of model into my business wouldn't be such a bad idea. Custom websites and templates. Cheap and expensive. For customers with different budgets. I would increase my custom designs to $1000 ($997) and then have templates for $247 or something.

    Either way, good competition is always good. It makes you grow. As a result I am going to do some serious business model re-thinking.

    Thanks for all your responses guys
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  • Profile picture of the author EdKirby
    You're welcome!

    And if you are up to it don't forget hosting. Add hosting to your repertoire if you don't already have it.
    Signature

    Ed

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  • Profile picture of the author s62731
    Originally Posted by EdKirby View Post

    You're welcome!

    And if you are up to it don't forget hosting. Add hosting to your repertoire if you don't already have it.
    Yeh I definitely do offer hosting. In fact 100% of my clients use my hosting.

    Plus then the SEO which is a huge money maker, or even google adwords management.

    Right now the main thing I'm lacking is a decent funnel and a decent website of my own. My whole business structure up until now has just been websites and SEO when ever I can.

    This can be a lesson for everybody, a good sales funnel will only ever help your business.

    What I mean by this, is that you offer certain products in certain orders, at specific times. Each service has it's own selling and performing process.

    Basically:

    1: You sell the website. After the sale step 1, 2 and 3 are completed. Now the website is up an running.
    2: After a 2 weeks of operation, you call and explain google adwords and sell them on it. $250 set-up, and then a monthly amount depending on their budget. (now they see how traffic leads to customers first hand, and you discover what keywords work the best all while they pay you)
    3: After 1 month of adwords you explain SEO to them. Then upsell them that (much easier now they see the power of lots of traffic.)

    Plus you are selling: Hosting, logo design, mobile website. (And for template customers all the other stuff like support, training, extra pages etc.)

    In this whole process you ask for a testimonial at a certain time, ask for refferals at a certain time (like when going to sell SEO and then they get a discount)

    So much stuff we can build into our business's. I for one know I have been incredibly lazy on this front. Not really developing anything of substance. Just selling websites over the phone for a good buck, and then upselling SEO here and there. Basically letting the customer controll the proccess, not me.

    This is not to say that I am not making money. I have been sitting on about $3500 a week for the last few months now (not to brag, but just to say that simply selling websites and SEO in an unorganised way over the phone still works like a charm!) But if you want to grow beyond that small point you need to put the effort into the business as well, not just the sales.

    Tomorrow I am going to spend all day developing my business model, and the process that all customers will go through (from every email I send; to everything I need from my customers; to everything that needs to be done to complete the service, the order and its time-frame).

    Thank again to everyone who has responded to this thread. Whilst what I have said might not make sense right now I am having a big ah-ha moment that I think will really impact my bottom line

    Cheers,

    James
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    • Profile picture of the author MyBizMastermind
      Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

      Yeh I definitely do offer hosting. In fact 100% of my clients use my hosting.

      Plus then the SEO which is a huge money maker, or even google adwords management.

      Right now the main thing I'm lacking is a decent funnel and a decent website of my own. My whole business structure up until now has just been websites and SEO when ever I can.

      This can be a lesson for everybody, a good sales funnel will only ever help your business.

      What I mean by this, is that you offer certain products in certain orders, at specific times. Each service has it's own selling and performing process.

      Basically:

      1: You sell the website. After the sale step 1, 2 and 3 are completed. Now the website is up an running.
      2: After a 2 weeks of operation, you call and explain google adwords and sell them on it. $250 set-up, and then a monthly amount depending on their budget. (now they see how traffic leads to customers first hand, and you discover what keywords work the best all while they pay you)
      3: After 1 month of adwords you explain SEO to them. Then upsell them that (much easier now they see the power of lots of traffic.)

      Plus you are selling: Hosting, logo design, mobile website. (And for template customers all the other stuff like support, training, extra pages etc.)

      In this whole process you ask for a testimonial at a certain time, ask for refferals at a certain time (like when going to sell SEO and then they get a discount)

      So much stuff we can build into our business's. I for one know I have been incredibly lazy on this front. Not really developing anything of substance. Just selling websites over the phone for a good buck, and then upselling SEO here and there. Basically letting the customer controll the proccess, not me.

      This is not to say that I am not making money. I have been sitting on about $3500 a week for the last few months now (not to brag, but just to say that simply selling websites and SEO in an unorganised way over the phone still works like a charm!) But if you want to grow beyond that small point you need to put the effort into the business as well, not just the sales.

      Tomorrow I am going to spend all day developing my business model, and the process that all customers will go through (from every email I send; to everything I need from my customers; to everything that needs to be done to complete the service, the order and its time-frame).

      Thank again to everyone who has responded to this thread. Whilst what I have said might not make sense right now I am having a big ah-ha moment that I think will really impact my bottom line

      Cheers,

      James
      Wow!! I would like to see all that James! Seems like you have your ducks in a row! I f you are going to make a WSO out of that whole process I would like to see it and review it.
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  • Profile picture of the author aaallday2010
    Also, if you notice, they have their logo and a direct link to their website on each of the example websites. This means they probably retain full ownership of the site or have that in the contract somewhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

    Hi Guys,

    I am a bit confused here. I charge $800+ for a custom website, and outsource them for around $100 - $150.

    Now one of my competitors is selling sites for $199 a pop...

    1 - How the hell is he making money at $199 a pop...?

    What do you guys think? Is this a good sustainable business model?

    Or should I not worry at all?

    I agree with most being said here in the other responses....but this may also help asking yourself- "How does my webdesign outsourcer have a business at $150 per site- on the HIGH end?".

    Thats what you are paying someone else, so, on another note, it may be a bit embarrassing if they happened upon this thread and saw that you cant believe people charge $199. and actually make a living...Just a thought

    I dont think its unreasonable to believe someone could make a good living at $150 per hour... Even if they only worked 2 hours per day.

    I wouldnt worry about it, there are probably ten others like him in your region that you arent even aware of and they dont bother you unless you think about them, otherwise you are just getting your weekly sales quota as usual and they are of no consequence either way...

    Lastly, I agree, its a loss leader.... just leads into the premium stuff. Part of the pitching funnel.
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    • Profile picture of the author s62731
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Thats what you are paying someone else, so, on another note, it may be a bit embarrassing if they happened upon this thread and saw that you cant believe people charge $199. and actually make a living...Just a thought
      Thanks for your reply.

      Haha yeh I know what you mean. I outsource my websites to a company in India. They do amazing work for that price, and make more money than most other people in their country.

      So if they did happen to read this thread he wouldn't mind in the slightest

      I don't think we will find many westerners who create complete custom made WordPress websites from the ground-up for $150. $150 will buy a lot more in most Asian countries than it will in the US or here in Australia.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheCG
        Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

        I outsource my websites to a company in India. They do amazing work for that price, and make more money than most other people in their country.
        Now, James, you DO know the next question is who is doing your work?

        Feel free to PM if you don't want to share their id on the board.

        Glad to hear you are still doing well.
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        Yes, by the way, I AM in the Witness Protection Program. I could tell you who I am but then I would have to kill you.

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  • Profile picture of the author Minds Eye
    There will always be competition in whatever you choose to do. Looks like you're working from a place of integrity - telling your prospect exactly what they can expect for the money you're charging them.
    I like what you said about calling back your existing clients with other offers - and formalizing the process. That's been a bit of a downfall of mine. I do the work, get them on the hosting, monitor the sites and send monthly reports. Then look for more clients...
    Think I'll be changing my own process.
    Having said that, not all clients are going to need all services. Just depends on who they are.
    Good luck with you business model. I'm
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    A powerful perspective on persuasion

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  • Profile picture of the author Minds Eye
    There will always be competition in whatever you choose to do. Looks like you're working from a place of integrity - telling your prospect exactly what they can expect for the money you're charging them.
    I like what you said about calling back your existing clients with other offers - and formalizing the process. That's been a bit of a downfall of mine. I do the work, get them on the hosting, monitor the sites and send monthly reports. Then look for more clients...
    Think I'll be changing my own process.
    Having said that, not all clients are going to need all services. Just depends on who they are.
    Good luck with you business model. There's definitely money to be made in the local market.
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    A powerful perspective on persuasion

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  • Profile picture of the author JimOrr
    I agree I think the $197 comes with a massive upsell to get to a site that will actually do anything for you.

    I knew a guy locally that was making pretty websites for $100 a pop. His eyes glazed over when I talked to him about conversion, seo, lead generation, etc. He basically was making digital billboards that might as well be on a dirt road to nowhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author EdKirby
    Wow, this has turned into quite an interesting thread!

    Lots of great info.
    Signature

    Ed

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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Here is a newsflash... I'm not sure you realize this or not... but your websites are not custom. They are CUSTOMIZED templates, not custom. I could put up a "custom" wordpress site just like the ones you posted and it would take me 30 minutes.

    Look at all the extras he has. That's how he makes his money. Contact page, additional pages, $75/each.. Hosting, SEO..

    $200 website ends up being the same $800 website you sell.

    The advantage you have... you're selling quality.. you're not selling cheap.
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    • Profile picture of the author sodomojo
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Here is a newsflash... I'm not sure you realize this or not... but your websites are not custom. They are CUSTOMIZED templates, not custom. I could put up a "custom" wordpress site just like the ones you posted and it would take me 30 minutes.

      Look at all the extras he has. That's how he makes his money. Contact page, additional pages, $75/each.. Hosting, SEO..

      $200 website ends up being the same $800 website you sell.

      The advantage you have... you're selling quality.. you're not selling cheap.
      What's your take? Cheap prices upfront with all add ons being extra so it ultimately is the same price, or just present everything upfront as all included? WHat do you feel is more effective?
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      • Profile picture of the author ryansjacket
        Seems like that's how all the big dawgs are doing it these days. I was just talking to my buddy the other day about Volusion's sales platform. Even if you go on their low side with one of their premium templates which they deliver not allowing any type of communication with the customer.... They start at $600 then upsell you to right under $3000.

        They got a be doing that for reasons, I'm thinking it must be working well for them. I would just hate to be the one on the sales line having to explain to the customer why the price just jumped up $2000.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          @ RyansJacket

          I had someone brilliant explain that whole kind of system to me in a couple of sentences, and since then I never forgot and I never needed a whole lot of training to up sell someone.

          First of all , if you are selling well, its not a big "Jump" its a gradual natural conclusion and the customer is just as involved in jacking the price as you are based on their educated desires.
          But thats not the point. This guy said:

          "If you ask a guy to walk 10 miles with you he will say No, but if you ask him to walk one he may, then if you ask him to walk another and another at each interval....he may go 3-4 or even the whole ten miles with you....but if you had asked for ten upfront you may not even have gotten him to go ONE"

          That never left me and serves me to this day...

          Follow the bold:

          Hey Bob Im almost finished here you got a logo?

          Great love it, and just a couple more questions and I will let you off the phone... Are you folks still located at?

          Great...and is this the company colors, awesome... Almost done Bob is this the best number for our internet customers to reach you?

          Awesome well thats about all I need ...Oh one more thing, Bob we ARE offering a PREMIUM listing as well, it comes with everything you already have Plus.... That sounds like a fair deal doesnt it?

          Great Well, before I submit this to processing-----

          Lastly Bob ___________

          Now as far as billing_______________


          You get the picture. Each bolded statement is me asking him for one more mile or assuming it.

          Its more of a leading than a JUMPING, getting a prospect from A to B to C....

          Hey Bob, thanks for taking your $97 webpage (One Mile), bTW we are also offering a full ten page site at fifty percent off of our ALREADY discounted price. If you act this week not only can you get a web page for $97 but you also qualify for our ten page full blown website special.... at an even further thirty percent discount knocking your per page cost down to $68 instead of 97, plus it gives you all these benefits....

          Like I said, you arent obligated to do this in order to qualify for your $97 web page...but if you get in this week I can save you about a thousand dollars on starting your full blown version and you wont end up having to pay full price later...fair enough? (Two Miles)

          Great Would that help you Bob?

          Great now let me ask before we close up " You DO have a google places listing right?"
          (3 miles)

          Upsell.




          At ryansjacket.... I recently was looking at a New American Standard Stratocaster... It cost about $900 less than the one I actually ended up buying..... a few key features I liked helped me make the jump.

          Its worthless to have something worthless even if its a good deal price wise, but people will still buy it anyway.... When you have them there where they are in buying mode....show them some stuff they DO value...its easier to move them up the scale when they are already in buying mode (thus cheap loss leader)... and its harder for them to make sense of buying the cheaper thing when they see that eventually they are going to want all these other things too down the road and it will cost more....

          I found that I could buy the guitar with all the features I wanted cheaper than I could buy a cheaper guitar and mod it out over time. That would have cost twice as much. It didnt make sense to buy the cheaper one when later I knew I would want the other features.

          Selling is just getting the desire going, then making sense to people. Buying the expensive guitar wasnt a jump, it was a natural conclusion to the thought process by the time I thought it all out. Just get some desire going, then help your customers think it all out by planting seeds.

          Ps. You can spend a week trying to fabricate a corn stalk with all your might, and you cant do it.... (consider the corn stalk to be "real desire").... but you can plant a corn "seed" and it will naturally grow on its own into a perfect natural cornstalk without any effort on your part really beyond the planting, as long as you plant in good ground.

          Yeah Im talking a little star wars ish - but this post will be read by 2000 people over the years and it will turn the light on for that person who is the right ground for it.

          If you feel your light bulb turned on , then good its you! lol Most will not even read the whole post. But its planted for that ONE who relates. This post will change someones life and get them making sales Im sure of it.

          Seed planted.
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    • Profile picture of the author s62731
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      Here is a newsflash... I'm not sure you realize this or not... but your websites are not custom. They are CUSTOMIZED templates, not custom. I could put up a "custom" wordpress site just like the ones you posted and it would take me 30 minutes.

      Look at all the extras he has. That's how he makes his money. Contact page, additional pages, $75/each.. Hosting, SEO..

      $200 website ends up being the same $800 website you sell.

      The advantage you have... you're selling quality.. you're not selling cheap.
      Now I think your telling a couple of fibs there pal

      I know that if you dig deep both those sites are "twenty eleven" theme, but here's a newsflash for you... you could not do that in 30 minutes.

      Each of the sites we get built uses an already built WordPress foundation, but the way it looks is 100% custom.

      These start out as simple graphics before they get cut up and turned into html, and then built into a wordpress theme.

      Sure maybe they are "Customized" but they are customized to a point where literally every option is limitless. We can literally have any layout, any function we like. The amount that is left from the original theme is incredibly little, it is scraped all the way down to the skeleton.

      The fact that you think you can do all that in 30 minutes is an absolute joke, I would hate to think how fast and ****ty you are currently doing stuff for your customers.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

        Now I think your telling a couple of fibs there pal

        I know that if you dig deep both those sites are "twenty eleven" theme, but here's a newsflash for you... you could not do that in 30 minutes.

        Each of the sites we get built uses an already built WordPress foundation, but the way it looks is 100% custom.

        These start out as simple graphics before they get cut up and turned into html, and then built into a wordpress theme.

        Sure maybe they are "Customized" but they are customized to a point where literally every option is limitless. We can literally have any layout, any function we like. The amount that is left from the original theme is incredibly little, it is scraped all the way down to the skeleton.

        The fact that you think you can do all that in 30 minutes is an absolute joke, I would hate to think how fast and ****ty you are currently doing stuff for your customers.
        LMAO.

        1.) You don't understand how websites work I guess... its very easy to rip a website.. 30 minutes, yes, I can do it easy.

        2.) My team has put up over 1,000 templates in one month. Templates that your outsourcers and other offline marketers are buying EVERY SINGLE DAY!

        3.) You are the one telling fibs, actually, I'll flat out call you a liar because in the first post you said they were custom, they are not custom. Just because something is limitless, doesn't mean it is custom. Any and every template whether it's a 35 dollar template or outsourced for 150... it is still limitless. The only limit is your own capabilities.

        4.) Don't start a thread if you can't take the criticism, and opinions of other people when you clearly asked for it.

        5.) Learn how to optimize your client's websites... 2 h1 tags is bad, non SEF URL's is bad...no robots tag, bad... no sitemap... bad..

        6.) Just because I can take your websites rip them and put em up in 30 minutes doesn't mean that my clients would get that junk. I don't operate like that, just saying it's what I can do.

        7.) Don't ever try and say that I do a bad job for my clients.. I have taken clients from practically having nothing, to being very wealthy. There are people that are on this forum that I have taken from 0 to hero.. my clients get quality that you can't even fathom. I don't sell websites... I offer websites, but I don't sell them like you do. I sell results. That's what my clients get, so while yours are happy with a design.. mine are too busy to even look at their website.
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        • Profile picture of the author s62731
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          LMAO.

          1.) You don't understand how websites work I guess... its very easy to rip a website.. 30 minutes, yes, I can do it easy.

          2.) My team has put up over 1,000 templates in one month. Templates that your outsourcers and other offline marketers are buying EVERY SINGLE DAY!

          3.) You are the one telling fibs, actually, I'll flat out call you a liar because in the first post you said they were custom, they are not custom. Just because something is limitless, doesn't mean it is custom. Any and every template whether it's a 35 dollar template or outsourced for 150... it is still limitless. The only limit is your own capabilities.

          4.) Don't start a thread if you can't take the criticism, and opinions of other people when you clearly asked for it.

          5.) Learn how to optimize your client's websites... 2 h1 tags is bad, non SEF URL's is bad...no robots tag, bad... no sitemap... bad..

          6.) Just because I can take your websites rip them and put em up in 30 minutes doesn't mean that my clients would get that junk. I don't operate like that, just saying it's what I can do.

          7.) Don't ever try and say that I do a bad job for my clients.. I have taken clients from practically having nothing, to being very wealthy. There are people that are on this forum that I have taken from 0 to hero.. my clients get quality that you can't even fathom. I don't sell websites... I offer websites, but I don't sell them like you do. I sell results. That's what my clients get, so while yours are happy with a design.. mine are too busy to even look at their website.
          I'm not here to get in an argument or be insulted. But it does seem like it is you, my fellow warrior, who cannot take other peoples opinions. Maybe both of us.

          However, that is not the best trait for one of the most opinionated people on the forum to have, wouldn't you say?

          As I look over all the threads you have been involved with I see 3 things;

          1. Some helpful, meaningful advice.
          2. A lot of talking down to people
          3. A heck load a lot of arguments between you and others.

          I'll also say that your definition of "Custom" is definitely different to mine.

          I would say that this is customized: Just Fence It - The Domestic Fencing Specialists
          And that this is custom: hrroofing.com.au

          But hey, that is just my opinion and you can take that can't you? Without talking down to me like your some sort of god?

          Not even going to be replying to anything else you say in this thread.

          @ Craig McPherson: Thanks man But how did you know where I am from?
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          • Profile picture of the author Craig McPherson
            Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

            But how did you know where I am from?
            A good Pines boy knows everything
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          • Profile picture of the author sitefurnace
            Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

            I'm not here to get in an argument or be insulted. But it does seem like it is you, my fellow warrior, who cannot take other peoples opinions. Maybe both of us.

            However, that is not the best trait for one of the most opinionated people on the forum to have, wouldn't you say?

            As I look over all the threads you have been involved with I see 3 things;

            1. Some helpful, meaningful advice.
            2. A lot of talking down to people
            3. A heck load a lot of arguments between you and others.

            I'll also say that your definition of "Custom" is definitely different to mine.

            I would say that this is customized: Just Fence It - The Domestic Fencing Specialists
            And that this is custom: hrroofing.com.au

            But hey, that is just my opinion and you can take that can't you? Without talking down to me like your some sort of god?

            Not even going to be replying to anything else you say in this thread.

            @ Craig McPherson: Thanks man But how did you know where I am from?
            Excellent response! There certainly are a handful of individuals on WF that seem to think of themselves as 'Gods' this guy being one of them. The question you have to ask yourself is if this guy is so super fantastic at what he does, why is he lurking on the forum 24/7 and always one of the first people to wade in on every thread that's started.

            If these people clearly have all the answers to everything then why do they bother with the warrior forum? Don't they have super successful businesses to run!?

            The WF should be a place where people feel they can learn and discuss without being belittled and preached to.

            I personally think its an ego thing. Talking down to everyone like the enlightened one, ripping people apart and then accusing them of not being able to take the criticism. Do you ever see them asking any questions? NO because either they are too scared of being on the receiving end or.... they can't SEEN to be asking questions as this would shatter the illusion of them being a 'GURU'

            Well, playground bullies suitably dealt with, here is my OPINION to your question.

            The end user doesn't care or know if a site is custom, semi-custom or whatever. As long as it looks nice and is technically sound they are happy. I personally wouldn't even mention if it's a custom site or a template who's going to know?

            The beauty of using a professionally made theme is that they are coded by professionals. The code is properly written, they are cross-browser compatible and future-proofed and secure with regular updates. You would pay a FORTUNE for someone to code the same thing from scratch. And do you think that a biz owner would want his money to be spent on this when he could have the same thing for a fraction of the cost?

            Every customisation you make is just something that could potentially make it less than perfect and unsecure. Sure changing images, copy and colors in the CSS is fine but stop there. Pass this proffesional, robust design onto the client rather than an inferior version.

            Rather than use the 'custom' thing as your USP, leave the site as intact as possible and spend your time creating great graphics and copy, in my opinion that's what is going to please the customer.

            I think your competitor has a pretty good model actually. A lot of businesses don't need ten page sites and a one page lander is spot on. Why are most sales pages just one page? I think he could probably include some of the other things as standard but there's no right or wrong way there really.

            Definitely right about starting the funnel small and building on it. Look at normal online marketing like affiliate sales etc. they always start off their funnel trying to do just one thing, get you email address. It's then a simple case of building trust and upselling all the way as this trust grows.

            Like someone said before its easier to sow seeds than make a plant and so maybe build your funnel so that it's as automated as possible, presenting the upsells at the perfect points in your clients relationship and then just focus on sowing seed every day.
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by sitefurnace View Post

              Excellent response! There certainly are a handful of individuals on WF that seem to think of themselves as 'Gods' this guy being one of them. The question you have to ask yourself is if this guy is so super fantastic at what he does, why is he lurking on the forum 24/7 and always one of the first people to wade in on every thread that's started.

              If these people clearly have all the answers to everything then why do they bother with the warrior forum? Don't they have super successful businesses to run!?

              The WF should be a place where people feel they can learn and discuss without being belittled and preached to.

              I personally think its an ego thing. Talking down to everyone like the enlightened one, ripping people apart and then accusing them of not being able to take the criticism. Do you ever see them asking any questions? NO because either they are too scared of being on the receiving end or.... they can't SEEN to be asking questions as this would shatter the illusion of them being a 'GURU'

              Well, playground bullies suitably dealt with, here is my OPINION to your question.
              Congratulations on sharing your feelings and built up aggression towards someone that never knew you existed.

              I post on average of 7 posts a day.. takes 20 minutes max, is that 24/7? I help a lot of people on this board, because a lot of people are delusional and misguided about their business.

              Yes, I do have a business to run, and unlike a lot of people I bust my ass running it, working about 12-16 hours a day, EVERY DAY. I have a few people on my team that pull 80 hours a week. What I do in my free time has nothing to do with you and if you want to criticize me for it then let me just inform you that I really don't care about what someone on a forum thinks I should do in my life.

              As for it being an ego thing, yeah I have a little ego here and there but I ask questions just like everyone else. For someone that seems to know every post of mine, why don't you realize the questions I post? How about questions about moving into an actual office, VOIP phone line systems, asking questions about direct mailing conversions so I can try improving my own? Asking about a rent a site model when I never offered it? Asking questions has enabled me to grow my income. I take advice, I evaluate it and I put it into practice.

              When I give advice, it comes from actual experience, not theory.

              FFS... All I did in this thread was say the websites weren't REALLY custom, LOL! And now you guys jump over me because I responded to an insult thrown at me saying I must do a ****ty job for my clients.. Which I'm over it now.. but geeze.. come on, lol. I think anybody else would react the same way... I'm sure the OP would have done the same if the situation was reversed.

              Anyway, I'm done with the arguing in this thread..

              I do have to give my props to s62731, even though this thread spiraled out of control, there is a lot to learn from it. He's evaluating the competition. He isn't just taking a look at it before he gets started, he already is in the marketplace and he is evaluating the competition and moving forward. Competition analysis is always going to be a major part of business. It's important to know what they're doing in order for you to evaluate yourself and stay ahead in your local market, even national.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Durham
              Originally Posted by sitefurnace View Post

              Excellent response! There certainly are a handful of individuals on WF that seem to think of themselves as 'Gods' this guy being one of them. The question you have to ask yourself is if this guy is so super fantastic at what he does, why is he lurking on the forum 24/7 and always one of the first people to wade in on every thread that's started.

              If these people clearly have all the answers to everything then why do they bother with the warrior forum? Don't they have super successful businesses to run!?
              Why does ANYONE coach? If Michael Jordan wanted to stop playing and start coaching would you question him and refuse to be coached because he wasnt on the floor playing...?

              Would you be whispering stupidly under your breath at how he was washed up and you think you could take him. lol?

              Does it occur to you that this may be PART of Iamnameless offline sales funnel and networking place?

              Half my co workers are at the WF....when I report even to OFFLINE business some of my accountability is here, so I am here every day.

              Perhaps he has already been where you are and is evolving beyond that to where you want to BE and thats why you dont understand him... perhaps not, but perhaps.

              As for me, I am not a "wanna be God" but I could probably sell you under a table... and I guarantee I have sold more websites. I would gladly pay you a hundred dollars if I was wrong about that... but Im "here" everyday, not "out there" as much. Go figure.

              I even make ONLINE sales....does that make you jealous? Are you mad because you havent evolved enough as a sales person yet to be able to do it online and make the most of participating in a marketing networking community?

              Do you not understand what a network is?

              Are you too blind to see the potential of being here, yet still attending SBA meetings for the same purpose and going through all that effort?

              Sounds to me like YOU are talking down to a person who has earned a bad mood now and then...only in a real cowardly way because you didnt even initiate it, you waited for others agreement to feel safe.

              IAM nameless may have been wrong, or even a bit arrogant.... but he has earned the right to an arrogant mood once in awhile. What have you done to earn any merit for your your lengthy opinion?

              Maybe you dont understand IAMnameless because you havent been around the bliock enough to get him.

              I know alot of people hate on me for making significant online sales, but years ago I didnt know how to and I was STUCK to the phone because I hadnt learned to evolve my processes into more effortless ways...

              Have YOU?

              Are you that evolved yet?

              Yeah Im picking back because you picked on a great contributor and the only reason is because you are blissfully ignorant, even though you are talking like he's the one novice.

              Now attack me.

              I'll play, and it aint because Im God, its because I think Im smarter than you.


              Have you ever met a drill sargent who wasnt arrogant. We are training WARIORS here. They are thick skinned. Sorry if you need to be handled with kid gloves.

              Yes, that guy is my friend and you ;picked on him so yes Im standing up....got a problem with human nature? Is God wrong too?

              Call me another arrogant snippy warrior, but we EMBRACE our thick skin around here.
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          • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
            Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

            I'll also say that your definition of "Custom" is definitely different to mine.

            I would say that this is customized: Just Fence It - The Domestic Fencing Specialists
            And that this is custom: hrroofing.com.au

            But hey, that is just my opinion and you can take that can't you? Without talking down to me like your some sort of god?
            I have to agree with IAmNameless....
            Your fencing site isn't custom at all.....

            Like he pointed out, you are just using templates.
            Your fencing site is this template: TheProfessional Theme Preview

            I could get this site up in 30 mins as well. That's why it can be done for $150. It's $39/year to Elegant Themes, plus 30 mins to put up the site.

            Aside from that... I wouldn't worry about competitors.
            If they are stable, that's a good thing for you. It proves there is a market there and a need. If there is a need for the low end, there is a need for the high end.
            Some people won't do business with your competitor, since they think a site should cost $2k+ and do trust the quality they would get for 1/10th of that price.
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            • Profile picture of the author s62731
              Originally Posted by vndnbrgj View Post

              I have to agree with IAmNameless....
              Your fencing site isn't custom at all.....

              Like he pointed out, you are just using templates.
              Your fencing site is this template: TheProfessional Theme Preview

              I could get this site up in 30 mins as well. That's why it can be done for $150. It's $39/year to Elegant Themes, plus 30 mins to put up the site.
              .
              I think you misunderstood what I was saying there. I was saying that the fencing site IS just a template site, that has been customized with the logo, text and colours. I wasn't saying it is "custom". That site is just like the ones my competitor is producing.

              Where as the second one is "custom", not using any layout or any template.

              If you look here hrroofing.com.au you will notice this isn't an off the rack theme like "The Professional"

              The fencing one can be done in 30 minutes. I know that because I did it myself in about 45

              But in comparison to the other site, no that cannot be done in 30 minutes.

              And you make a good point, a lot of people do get "weary" of the $197 type price range.

              Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Craig McPherson
    Not happy at all. One of the websites your competitor showcases is for a good mate of mine who knows what I do.

    Grrrrr
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  • Profile picture of the author Huskerdarren
    Your competitor makes a nice looking website, and to the layperson, they are not much different from yours. He has a nice system. Get a client on board at an entry level price, let them get comfortable with the process and then upsell them. His average ticket is probably $500. If he's outsourcing it, he's making $400 a sale and probably much more.
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    • Profile picture of the author s62731
      Originally Posted by Huskerdarren View Post

      Your competitor makes a nice looking website, and to the layperson, they are not much different from yours. He has a nice system. Get a client on board at an entry level price, let them get comfortable with the process and then upsell them. His average ticket is probably $500. If he's outsourcing it, he's making $400 a sale and probably much more.
      I agree that to the average person those sites look just as good as mine. That's what annoys me lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryansjacket
    Dont let it annoy you.... Its there for you to recognize it and to make the proper changes if you feel necessary. The important thing is that you are able to read in between the lines as all of your friends have done for you on the WF today. Your questions could and should have been answered by yourself in a few minutes by simply reading your competitors details. If you can't do this I fear your weakness !
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  • Profile picture of the author Craig McPherson
    Seems we have a few here that cannot take criticism.

    "people in glass houses"
    "you can give it but can't take it"

    springs to mind

    James,
    Keep going mate. You're doing a great job (For a Seaford dude)
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  • Profile picture of the author voxio
    In addition to what's been mentioned before, eChimp probably is doing their own designs and coding and knocking them out in an hour or two. The two portfolio sites I saw look like they could be using twitter bootstrap.
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  • Profile picture of the author swd123
    Pretty good sites for only $150 outsourced!
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  • Profile picture of the author s62731
    @Sitefurnace:

    Thanks man. It's hard to call out someone like IamNameless because of how active he is, you never know if your going to get attacked my a heap of others who are 'online' friend of his. But it seems like a few agree with me.

    Anyway.... Definiately a lesson for a lot of people around here: There comes a time when you need to evolve your business model.

    Right now there are a lot of people who originally just had trouble selling on the phone. But now we can do that we get lazy when it comes to actually building a "real" business.

    I agree with everything you said there. In-fact I am going to begin using stuff from themeforest.net and just getting my guys to customize it a little, and set it up properly for the customer. That will make the cost cheaper, and the process quicker. After a month I will probably have licences to 20-30 quality themes and landing pages, depending on how my sales go.

    Thanks again,

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author Carl Fridsjö
    I don't understand the bashing on his competitor, why would he have bad support etc? And what's wrong with using templates? Who cares if it's a customized template if it's both better looking and cheaper for the customer? Sounds like a win-win deal to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Well good luck to you, I tried offering insight, if you don't like it you don't like it. If you didn't want an argument to start, you shouldn't have thrown insults at me because I have the type of personality that will address any question, and comment towards me. I hold no grudges though and do wish you the best of luck.

    Yes, we have different definitions of custom. Custom to me, is built with no template, creating your own template from scratch, hand coded. Of course, it doesn't matter because a custom website, and a template can get the same results. The only time it makes sense to go the custom route, is from a programming aspect when they need something that a script won't handle. It really doesn't matter though, does it?
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      I have the type of personality that will address any question, and comment towards me. I hold no grudges though and do wish you the best of luck.
      I have been trying to find those words for years. Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Carl Fridsjö
    How about we get some more value from this thread...? Since we're already on the topic - how do you guys explain to your clients about customized themes and that their sites isn't entirely unique? In which part of the sales process do you tell them, or you don't do it at all? Just curious
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by Carl Fridsjö View Post

      How about we get some more value from this thread...? Since we're already on the topic - how do you guys explain to your clients about customized themes and that their sites isn't entirely unique? In which part of the sales process do you tell them, or you don't do it at all? Just curious
      Just say "custom designed templates" many understand what it is already, and others wont even ask. You will get asked once in awhile..... Just say "It just means we use word press as our platform...(now dont waste time, move them away from the question and get their mind on the next level) If you'd like to go ahead and let us do a customized theme/design we are best at that, but if you would like to choose a word press template yourself thats not customized, its no problem they have many to choose from, some are pretty nice, although it may cost a little extra....still not as nice as ours....did you want tp pick your own design or just let our guy handle it and surprise you?"

      They are going to drop it and say "Ill just let you do the designing (chuckle).

      Then say "Great, its what we do best...now as I was saying before....." Keep it flowing.

      You answered the question in such a way that it weould seem like opening a can of worms for them to answer otherwise....still some will....just pick a template with them. They are sold if you go that far practically.

      Nobody cares that you are using templates.....if they do, then just make a statemenmt that makes designing from scratch seem "passe" and say "we can do that if you want but its really 1990's and it would double your cost without adding any more real value or even aestertic advantage....but we can go that route if you really want to..." - they dont want to be passe or throw away money....but they 'can" be and you gave them the option so they are happy that you have no agenda except their happiness and well being.

      On another note, you dont have to mention templates at all..... you are designing a website for them.... thats all thats needed really. If you havent advertised that you build them from scratch then why does the customer care how you build them.... Its a question once in awhile but not a major one....you wont hear it very often.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jacob Anthony
      Originally Posted by Carl Fridsjö View Post

      How about we get some more value from this thread...? Since we're already on the topic - how do you guys explain to your clients about customized themes and that their sites isn't entirely unique? In which part of the sales process do you tell them, or you don't do it at all? Just curious
      I personally think that all of that can be dealt with when you are doing an initial consultation for the customer. I basically ask them what they're requirements are in an ideal world, then look at if those results can be achieved by using a theme or whether bespoke coding is needed. It also depends on their budget at the time. They may not be able to afford their ideal world requirements so you have to ask them what elements they need as a priority, explaining that "like to haves" at a later date.

      Custom or not, it's what the customer needs and wants that the priority!

      Just my 2p worth
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Jacob Anthony View Post

        I personally think that all of that can be dealt with when you are doing an initial consultation for the customer. I basically ask them what they're requirements are in an ideal world, then look at if those results can be achieved by using a theme or whether bespoke coding is needed. It also depends on their budget at the time. They may not be able to afford their ideal world requirements so you have to ask them what elements they need as a priority, explaining that "like to haves" at a later date.

        Custom or not, it's what the customer needs and wants that the priority!

        Just my 2p worth
        I asked a guy once "what do you want"? in so many words, and he was offended and said "I invited you here because YOU are supposed to know what I need...I have no clue, you are ther pro".

        When you dont know what you offer going in you are sunk.

        Consultation is good, asking questions....but KNOW what you are selling and "have the answers" dont make them feel like the driver is not in control.

        If you dont know what you sell and its all up in the air, you will never be able to duplicate success and scale effectively.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jacob Anthony
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          I asked a guy once "what do you want"? in so many words, and he was offended and said "I invited you here because YOU are supposed to know what I need...I have no clue, you are ther pro".

          When you dont know what you offer going in you are sunk.

          Consultation is good, asking questions....but KNOW what you are selling and "have the answers" dont make them feel like the driver is not in control.

          If you dont know what you sell and its all up in the air, you will never be able to duplicate success and scale effectively.
          Great advice there. The thing is, I'm a sales person who's learnt webdesign so I always go in knowing what I offer and ideally what I want to sell. I use what I call the & P's:

          Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents P*ss Poor Perfomance!

          I tend to do a bit of ground work and research before I go in, like what their web presence consists of and more importantly who their typical customer is. Knowing their typical customer demographic allows me to tailor their web presence to their customers and and their buying behaviours. Notice I said "web presence" as opposed to website.

          I always make it clear to my clients that having a good web presence doesn't just stop with having a website and I add value to my clients by making sure that they have a coherent and consistent internet marketing strategy right across the board.

          Maybe if the OP is concerned about the value he gives to his customers, maybe he could look at adding other elements such as social media management to the package he offers? Or anything else that sets him apart from the local competition.
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  • Profile picture of the author sitefurnace
    John durham, I admire you sticking up for your buddy. I'll give you that. I am not a coward, I just don't like bullys and although it's not my fight I felt the need to address the balance a little and stick up for S62731 - you're doing exactly the same, you didn't initiate this but you've decided to join in - does that make you a coward?

    I'm sure you can outsell me
    Im sure you have sold thousands more websites than me
    Well done for being a whole lot smarter
    S**t, I even bet your d&*^s bigger than mine as well going on all your other triumphs so congratulations on that.

    We can chest beat all we want but I'm not into that. Where I'm from, being humble is a character trait that is respected. Yes you might be better than someone else but you don't go around telling everyone - it's just not cricket.

    If you think that because you have contributed more gives you the right to be rude then I despair and cannot argue with you there sir.
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  • Profile picture of the author Huskerdarren
    Custom, customized, none of this matters. No one is going to ask. The only thing that matters is the finished product. If business owner had the time to learn Wordpress, buy a template and customize it, he would. Some do, MOST do not. It's a headache. They want to write a check and be on their way. A template is a tool in your tool box. You buy it, install it and tweak it. You get paid for what you do and knowing how to do it.

    I set a trap for a guy on another message board. That sounds lousy but it wasn't my intention. He boasted that he had created a from scratch website for another guy we both know. Prior to that, upon looking at it I asked him what theme he used, but he insisted he did all of his work as pure HTML from the ground up. Wordpress was beneath him. Ha ha. So, I proceeded to show everyone on the board which theme he used and where he bought it.

    Duh, we can't inspect the properties of any site? The guy who bought the site wonders why he was charged $2000 for a $35 theme. Hey it's still a nice looking site. I guess he felt guilty and wanted to hide the evidence.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Neale
      ??? Not sure what you mean by the comment below. I've charged $5,000 plus for sites built on a $35 - $45 theme. What does the price of the theme have to do with it? A nicely customized theme takes a lot of work. What about the design and layout of interior pages? The customizing of how videos might display? Photo gallery display customization? Contact pages? etc. etc. To say nothing about home page layout.

      Buying and installing the theme is just the beginning..... now the real work begins.

      Buying the theme and installing it is about 2% - 5% of the expense when we build a customized Wordpress Theme.

      We also recommend clients NOT buy a theme built from scratch because of potential future support issues as WP and the plugins used are updated regularly and a completely custom WP site can be problematic a few years down the road.

      Earlier in the thread I think somebody mentioned building a decent site in 30 minutes? 30 minutes is a joke. NOBODY takes a theme from Theme Forest or anywhere else and produces a decent site for a client in 30 minutes. Decent custom images for the slider can take a few hours all in itself, never mind the info for the contact form, the layout of the inner pages..... the home page layout.

      Originally Posted by Huskerdarren View Post

      Duh, we can't inspect the properties of any site? The guy who bought the site wonders why he was charged $2000 for a $35 theme. Hey it's still a nice looking site. I guess he felt guilty and wanted to hide the evidence.
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  • Profile picture of the author midrockdigital
    The extras are where these types of operators nail their clients.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Neale
    -http://jaleigh.web-cast.com.au/
    -http://demo.hrroofing.com.au/

    If you can get sites like that built for $100 - $150 complete that is one hell of a deal. Tell you what I''ll buy sites like that from you all day long for $250

    Or PM your source and I'll pay you a commission on each one I buy. I've never had that kind of quality out of India in that price range, in fact at double that price.


    Originally Posted by s62731 View Post

    Hi Guys,

    I am a bit confused here. I charge $800+ for a custom website, and outsource them for around $100 - $150.

    Now these are completely custom websites. Here are some of our works in progress:

    -http://jaleigh.web-cast.com.au/
    -http://demo.hrroofing.com.au/

    Now one of my competitors is selling sites for $199 a pop, and they seem like they are very attractive. Now this annoys me and confuses me for 2 reasons:

    1 - How the hell is he making money at $199 a pop
    2 - How do the sites look that good at such a good price?

    Here is his website: echimp.com.au

    I guess this is the first of my competitors that has actually scared me. The sites look good and they're so cheap.

    They offer 110% money back guarantees, and say it takes less than 30 minutes of your time. A very easy sell for $199.

    What do you guys think? Is this a good sustainable business model?

    Or should I not worry at all?

    Cheers guys
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    • Profile picture of the author NewParadigm
      Are you getting objections by potential/current clients pointing you to certain competitors that they are cheaper?

      If not, you are worrying about nothing.

      If you are, challenge them to compare apples to apples. By the time they add up the upsells you are competitive etc....
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  • Profile picture of the author bobmcalister
    nice thread ...kinda like a tennis match...lol
    btw ...all those links in the thread are giving your competitor free backlinks from a pretty high pr site..if it were me, I would go back and 'deactivate' those links...stay well and happy !
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  • Profile picture of the author azurews
    Most web design customers want the same thing...more customers for their business. Whether that means a custom solution or a template, most won't care if they are getting more customers for their business from your efforts. I would show the value of onpage seo then later you could upsell them to offpage seo.

    I started out with coding from scratch but most customers want to be able to make small changes on their own (seasonal business hours, coupons etc.) and though I prefer coding html, wordpress is easier for customers to use so I have been moving in that direction.
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  • Profile picture of the author jayceeme2010
    This is an interesting topic. I'm learning new things
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  • Profile picture of the author NickSway
    I haven't read anything but the OP, but is he really a direct competition to you? Are your potential customers telling you that they have decided to go with echimp instead of you? Otherwise it's something that you shouldn't even look at. If they have mentioned it, then just realized that $197 is a simple website with no support. It looks like you both do modified wordpress templates. He probably offers terrible support and it looks like he has really expensive upgrades (which I assume you include some of them in your price).

    Even if he is your direct competition, you need to drive home the value of your sites over his and compare the total cost if they went with him (which would end up being about the same as yours).
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  • Profile picture of the author shubhamblogger
    don't worry, give your best, if its worth buying, people are gonna forget your competitor if you are really doing good in your job.
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  • s62731 you seem like a good guy, with a great product. Send me a PM and I'll send you a report I've written on Pricing :-)
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    Grow Your Profits is giving away a FREE copy of
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  • Profile picture of the author Nspire
    Some very good points made throughout this thread. Each web designer has to come up with the business model that works for them. I think the most important thing is to offer value and tell the customer exactly what they are getting. If it a customized theme or template tell the customer just that.
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  • Profile picture of the author mobilemadman
    If you like their themes and want to know which one they are using just do a google search for "wordpress theme detector" theng bingo you know which theme to use and customize.
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