To pay...or not to pay...Upfront.

24 replies
So, we've all heard it, because we all sell something here. The old "I can't do payment upfront, I've been burned." Or, "why do you expect me to pay for something before I've seen the results?"

Look, especially here, on WF, we ALL sell something. I'd like a show of hands to those that happily, readily, are searching for, want to find, and will work their A$& off for someone that off the bat, doesn't to pay for services or a product. No one?

For us, we simply don't work without payment. Why? Because I too have a family, and bills. If you can't commit to paying me, giving me what I need to make YOU money (list, script, information about your company), do you really expect me to work my butt off to "prove to you" anything? I'll just bid you a good day, and head on to the next call coming in, because THEY want appointments tomorrow...you'll be stuck looking for someone that can't give you what I can.

Yes, you don't know me, and I don't know you. I don't know that you're going to pay me. However, I do know my abilities, and I do know that I'm not working for free.

Scenario if you want me to work first, then get paid:
I'll agree to work first, make you appointments, then get paid, if you agree that I can tell those appointments that you will give them your product or service to them to try for a week, and if they like it, they can pay you. I would make TONS of those appointments! No go, huh?

Simply put, no, we don't know each other. In my case, I don't know that whatever you go to sell is going to sell at that appointment I make you. I don't know what kind of a salesman you are. If you suck, and you say "that appointment was not good, I'm not paying you" then I'm screwed because you can't sell. You also don't know if I'll set the appointments I claim to, or what quality they'll be, until you see them...but if you don't want to find out what I can do, then don't. Someone else will though

I do my job, and you do yours. If you won't do yours for free, or give your product away up front, don't expect me to.

Keep this in mind when you're working with others here. You get what you pay for, you also should pay, for what you get.
#appointment setting #pay #pay upfront #payor #payupfront #sales
  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Sounds like a rant caused by a recent unpleasant experience .

    It depends on who I am working with as to getting paid upfront. For instance, I've been working with someone for two years on a project that could well bring in a substantial sum of money over the next year or two. I met them in person, liked them, and started doing work for them without any upfront payments and very minimal payments along the way.

    With other people I don't know, there is a slim to no chance I'd work like that.

    It all depends on the relationship ... and in my case, my gut feeling. Oh did I forget to mention my wife's feelings as well? She frequently reads people better than I do from the standpoint of getting paid.

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    My personal opinions often come off as rants...however, it is a common sentiment shared by most everyone here, that has heard it much more than once.

    I tend to be a straight shooter, however you can rest assured you know where I stand at all times

    I agree, I am a good judge of character. My husband likes to see the best, and hope for the best, and I am less forgiving. I think it's a valid point though. I have actually asked someone that said this to me "so, you'll make me a website to my specifications, based on your research of what I want, and then I can pay you for it?" He said no...we have worked together for months now, and he paid upfront

    I think people often ask for something, they wouldn't do. I don't expect anyone to do work for me, without being paid.
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  • Profile picture of the author Voasi
    Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

    For us, we simply don't work without payment. Why? Because I too have a family, and bills. If you can't commit to paying me, giving me what I need to make YOU money (list, script, information about your company), do you really expect me to work my butt off to "prove to you" anything? I'll just bid you a good day, and head on to the next call coming in, because THEY want appointments tomorrow...you'll be stuck looking for someone that can't give you what I can.
    Yes, we all have families, bills, etc... The last thing any of us want to do is give our hard-earned money to someone and not see results, especially if you don't provide a shred of evidence that you're NOT like every other telemarketing firm.

    Listen, you're not in an industry that has a GOOD rep. It has a bad one. Much like SEO. I have to win over clients that have lost $1000's, sometimes HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars. I have to give them references, talk to current and past clients, look at my portfolio to win over clients. I've made the choice to stay in this industry though, even though it might be a little more tough to acquire clients than others. You might need to do the same.

    Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

    Yes, you don't know me, and I don't know you. I don't know that you're going to pay me. However, I do know my abilities, and I do know that I'm not working for free.
    Agreed - that's why a "Pay-As-You-Go" model is a great way to start a relationship, as we spoke about. That's minimal risk on both parties. Obviously, you should always pre-qualify who you give this opportunity to, but if you want to build rapport, especially in taunted industry, it's a good way to go.

    Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

    Scenario if you want me to work first, then get paid:
    I'll agree to work first, make you appointments, then get paid, if you agree that I can tell those appointments that you will give them your product or service to them to try for a week, and if they like it, they can pay you. I would make TONS of those appointments! No go, huh?
    Let me paint you a recent picture...

    Prospect calls me. We go through the whole presentation and says "I've been burned by a few companies just outsourcing the web design and SEO to India. I need to see your abilities first."

    Now, I had already pre-qualified him and knew these guys had the budget. I had already spent a good 90 minutes on the phone with him too, building rapport and understanding his business/model/USPs/etc..

    I agreed to do a mock-up design. My proposal prior to the mock-up was $9,000 design and $2,000/mo. in SEO services. He agreed to all of it, he just wanted to make sure that I could actually do what I was saying. So I did. I did a complete design mock-up absolutely free.

    He signed that afternoon and I had a check in hand.

    If this would've been in another industry, I would get it. But this is my industry, where there is NO BARRIER TO ENTRY and ANYONE can claim their an SEO GURU, so sometimes you have to go over and behind for prospects that you know are worth the time.

    This doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

    Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

    Keep this in mind when you're working with others here. You get what you pay for, you also should pay, for what you get.
    I completely agree with that. But no one knows you.

    I know this rant is because of our Skype conversation. And as I said, building rapport with me and doing a small pay-as-we-go campaign would've been a good idea. I spend $1,000's of dollars in marketing every month. Warriors on here that know me know I'm the real deal.

    I wasn't asking you to set 20 appts. and then I'll pay you, that would've put all the risk on you. Nor do I think I should bear all the risk and pay upfront for your services either. Pay-As-You-Go solves this risk factor. Once you've shown that you're not the rest, I would happily pay thousands each month, as the rapport had been built.

    Lastly, I'll leave you with this. I do a lot of CL postings. The last thing I want to do is give a company $2,000 upfront for a month's worth of postings and then never hear from them. I always have them do a test round of posting to see if they can and won't have a problem. They do a their postings, on their dime. Once I see it and it's verified they know what they're doing... BOOM... they have my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Edit: (After reading the rest of the thread) Yes I also know Adam is the real deal... And I know Mwind is as well. Lol

    I guess you two dont know that about each OTHER yet.

    Adam would be a great testimonial. Ps. He WOULD pay you. I would give him a small test package for a few hundred dollars.

    I think the way to achieve thousands of dollars with this at the WF is to run a wso offering small $300 test packages. You would get several clients and it would be the same amount of business.
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  • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
    Honestly... Once a relationship is there and the trust is there... I have no problem paying for anything.
    But, until that point I am very hesitant. I can see both sides. The buyer and provider.

    When I have nver worked with a client, and its not a referral, I get half down and half upon completion. This is due to the trust issue. When its referral based, or an exisiting client, I get the full amount upfront. Since the trust is already there.

    The key is minimizing risk from both sides.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by vndnbrgj View Post


      The key is minimizing risk from both sides.
      Indeed. You cant always eliminate risk, but you can minimize it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    Joined the War Room about 2 hours ago. WSO is being sumbitted NOW...as I type. JD check your PM please.

    I agree with all that was said JD, we don't know each other, but, sorry, our process is our process, just as Adam's is his own

    No hard feelings, someone will work with him on his terms, as we have ones that go on ours! There's plenty to go around!

    Edit: Adam, I didn't call you out for a reason, and that was that I didn't feel it was anyone's business! Although, I'm glad you had some input. I do think we both agree, but are just at an impass.
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    • Profile picture of the author mike_lucas
      Many ,Many Company have to delivery a mock up . or based on performance. Employee work 40 hours a week then get paid.. Contractors working a a job get at most 50% of the job up front.

      When working with a unknown to pay 100% upfront is a huge gamble .F example of Freelancer as many here who you that service will know you pay after the service is delivery the do have a payment option that places part or full payment in escrow but no one pays in advance for the service they even warn against doing that in fact.

      Web designers here only collect 50% of payment upfront I dare say less then 10% collect 100% upfront unless it's from a current client. There has to be a trust factor and that trust must be a two way street with 100% upfront you are asking only that they trust you... but you don't trust them. in my opinion.

      How many here pay employee in advance for the week work even if they employee has work 5 years from you ? I dare say few if ever.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
        Originally Posted by mike_lucas View Post


        How many here pay employee in advance for the week work even if they employee has work 5 years from you ? I dare say few if ever.
        I was going to reply to this the other day and forgot to come back to it! It deserves and answer.

        It's true, in the "job" world you don't get paid ahead of time. However, most people HERE, or in business for themselves do not work as "employees" to others. They work as 1099 or independent contractors. Without sounding harsh (because I know I often do), when we decide to work WITH someone, we are never their employee. We provide a service, we are partners and look at them as a client that has hired us to provide them with something they need. We may need information on how to do what we do for their specific business (information so we can script, lists, any preferences), but we do not need them to train us, or monitor us, or otherwise act as our employer. Simply put, providing a service does not make you someone's employee. I think too many people don't know the difference.

        If you want to employ me, then I'll need you to cover my insurance, my internet, phone, office supplies etc...if you want me to provide you a service and I supply all that to myself...then you should pay me for my service.

        As always, my opinion, not the only opinion, but I'm not alone.
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        • Profile picture of the author mike_lucas
          Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

          I was going to reply to this the other day and forgot to come back to it! It deserves and answer.

          It's true, in the "job" world you don't get paid ahead of time. However, most people HERE, or in business for themselves do not work as "employees" to others. They work as 1099 or independent contractors. Without sounding harsh (because I know I often do), when we decide to work WITH someone, we are never their employee. We provide a service, we are partners and look at them as a client that has hired us to provide them with something they need. We may need information on how to do what we do for their specific business (information so we can script, lists, any preferences), but we do not need them to train us, or monitor us, or otherwise act as our employer. Simply put, providing a service does not make you someone's employee. I think too many people don't know the difference.

          If you want to employ me, then I'll need you to cover my insurance, my internet, phone, office supplies etc...if you want me to provide you a service and I supply all that to myself...then you should pay me for my service.

          As always, my opinion, not the only opinion, but I'm not alone.
          Very true but also as a contractor 95% of the contractors in the real world only get paid a percentage until the work is completed, or escrow accounts are set up or written guarantee of performance are signed. very, very seldom will a company pay in advance and "hope the job is preformed, not one that hopes to be around long.

          The contracting company is legally liable for your work, results, presentations, any mistakes, promises ,commitments etc a contractor may say in presentations etc. There is much more legal risk and even more if the contractor work off site and has little oversight or monitoring. Which is even more reason to insure the performance of the job prior to full payment.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul nicholls
    You can generally tell if you need to ask for a payment up front or not

    If the payment is fairly small below about $120 then i will collect it once it`s fully complete but if i think there is a chance that they may bump me then i will ask for say 10 - 15% up front payment

    If it is a bigger job for around $120 or bigger then i will always ask for an up front payment

    I ask for 50% up front and then the other 50% after it has finished

    With local businesses you will generally be fine but when it comes to people online that is a whole different story and i would be way more careful

    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkBrook
    Well I think you have a bad experience with someone. There are some issues in this online work and those are not like the work in your home town market.
    So if you have a project and giving to any one the same points you have in your mind the other person have too as some time work take time to show up or its look small but after taking the challenge you feel its a big task and you start working but did not end with the time in that case no payment made by the clients. So in my opinion I think upfront is must.

    I know only a line which is (I work for money if you need loyalty hire a dog)
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  • Profile picture of the author Rearden
    Yup.

    Telemarketing, direct mail, SEO... ladden with pikers.

    It's a reality you have to deal with, given you're dealing with someone who's experienced.

    Like suggested, why don't you do some type of small test-drive package, or offer some type of appointment guarantee to mitigate the initial mistrust?

    Once people see you can perform at some level, like the dude above mentioned, the real players are ready to roll out big money to manage their campaign.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    It went live this morning, it's in my sig. There is a test pack in there! I think its all in what you prefer. I'm not upset with anyone for their preferences, and they shouldn't be upset with mine. We will both find someone that's a good fit for us!
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  • Profile picture of the author chandan94
    It happens in online business and sometime offline also.
    But You should avoid all these destruction and step forward.
    It will show you the way of success.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    I always get money upfront. A lot of my work comes from members here and I have never had a problem with payment. I guess here they can see me and see I have a reputation. I also get some work from other sources and I still ask for money up front. I tell them I simply can;'t afford to hurt my reputation by not doing a good job. Some will, some won't, so what, next!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    It's clear that it's a matter of what each person wants, and to expect anyone to change their mind (when you won't) is unrealistic.

    There's always more out there!
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  • Profile picture of the author successproducts
    I pay escrow the first time then 50 percent the second time and normally when I know the sub contractor after a project I paid him immediately upon completion. I know this may not a sound business model but I do it always. In return I do have superb people to work for me and turn things around very fast. A little bit goes a long way for these people.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jacob Anthony
    Mwind you raise a really important question. As many people on here might have seen, I offer similar telemarketing services to that which you offer. However on this forum and only on this forum I offer mine with no payment upfront. Normally I ask for payment upfront just like you. However with the warrior forum being a global market and with it being attracting so much traffic and exposure in Google search results, I thought that building a little trust and reducing the perceived risk would be a good idea. Ironically I've still had many people offering to pay upfront!

    I do applaud you for posting this question though and the more I read your posts, the more I seem to like the cut of your jib to be honest!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    Jacob, I'm going to PM you, we had someone ask us to do calls in the UK, and we only do Canada and US...so I'm sending you a lead

    As for my "style" - I appreciate that you like it. Some think I'm rude, that I rant, and other things...truth is, I tell it like it is, and I'm confident in what I know It comes off wrong sometimes.

    I have found WF to be wonderful. The majority of people that are helpful have always been around, are helpful and will stick around. Those that are not here with good intentions, or that are troublemakers fall off quickly, and the rare few that stick around are well known for their antics.

    I have found though, that you still have to be careful here. We've had a few warriors (new and old) that aren't understanding of what's needed to be successful when we call. So, we weren't able to work with them, and at first, it's how we got burned. They expected us to produce with lists that were not targeted, or with hours that didn't allow us to perform as requested, or other things, simply put, if you don't provide me with the tools I ask for or listen to my recommendations, then no, I won't get you what you want and you will be disappointed. That's when we realized we had to be more stringent, require payment upfront, and require that we have what we've requested before a start. We have no issue telling someone the quality of a list, because it's only going to hold us back, or it's going to help them get what they are asking us for.

    I applaud you for being trusting, but as with all things, warrior forum has it's good and bad seeds, and you should always be prepared. I've found that our business hasn't suffered by requesting payment upfront, in fact, people understand and know that we've been around long enough to get burned and to have the ability to stand our ground with our process, which only helps!

    Look for that PM.
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  • Profile picture of the author SJJPFTW
    25-50% NONE refundable deposit and a contract my friend, those two things will ease your pain a lot, trust me. Also as someone mentioned, a escrow service, but I would only use that for BIG jobs and couple with with a contract and milestone payments.

    I did mention a contract didn't I?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    We don't do contracts...I've said why before, but in a nutshell, they're unenforceable because it's he said/she said type stuff. Also, for us, it would cost more to get a lawyer or file a small claims suit because we never did more than a week's work at a time without payment.

    We just cut out all the headache and work on a paid upfront basis. No need for deposits or refund policies or any of that. You pay, you like it, you keep paying...you don't, don't pay again.
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    • Profile picture of the author SJJPFTW
      Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

      We don't do contracts...I've said why before, but in a nutshell, they're unenforceable because it's he said/she said type stuff. Also, for us, it would cost more to get a lawyer or file a small claims suit because we never did more than a week's work at a time without payment.

      We just cut out all the headache and work on a paid upfront basis. No need for deposits or refund policies or any of that. You pay, you like it, you keep paying...you don't, don't pay again.
      Agreed, contracts only keep the honest people honest as far as payment goes but they are also important as they actually specify what you are to do for a client.

      Does my web design include a logo? I thought I would be number one in Google not number 3! Why am I not a millionaire now I have new sexy POS materials? What do you mean you will not make a BookFace for my goldfish for free?

      I always try for upfront payment, however for new clients I will take a deposit and milestone payments over a lost sale, but I will also ALWAYS have a contract. Not to cover my ass, but to cover my name. We live in a world of unrealistic expectations and I NEVER want someone to say "he said he would do this and didn't" and not be able to prove them wrong with a piece of paper.

      And yes if I sound slightly bitter about it, it has happened once and that is exactly how many times I plan on letting it happen.
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    • Profile picture of the author mike_lucas
      Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

      We don't do contracts...I've said why before, but in a nutshell, they're unenforceable because it's he said/she said type stuff. Also, for us, it would cost more to get a lawyer or file a small claims suit because we never did more than a week's work at a time without payment.

      We just cut out all the headache and work on a paid upfront basis. No need for deposits or refund policies or any of that. You pay, you like it, you keep paying...you don't, don't pay again.

      understand but business norm is a contact says what y ou will do how you will do it and when you will do it. if the comapny contacting you have not worked with you before why guarantee do they have you will preform the one week worth of work .

      You seem unwilling to risk one week or work so you want paid upfront... well this is a two sided coin a company does not want to risk one week or payment on a totally unknown it sounds like you are asking for the company to trust you but you do not trust them lol but to each their own trust is usually a two way street for most businesses
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