TRUE CONFESSION: I drove my $100k business INTO THE GROUND by Getting a JOB and NEGLECTING CUSTOMERS

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Hello there fellow Warriors!!

I must say, it's been awhile since I've posted here on Warrior Forum. Over a year, in fact! For those who don't know me, I spent quite a bit time on here in 2011 when I was running my offline business. Probably my most popular post that gave me credibility here on WF was The reason you HATE COLD CALLING is because you're lousy at it... Here's how to change that TODAY! (Although it's over a year old, I recommend you check it out as the information in it is timeless!)

At any rate, some of you probably noticed less and less of me in late 2011 and my complete disappearance in 2012. Well the truth is, I wasn't making the kind of money in offline marketing that I really wanted to be making and I drove my business into the ground.

This may come as a surprise for those of you who knew about my business. Myself and a partner had about 60 clients who I had sold mobile websites linked to QR Codes or who we sold Text Messaging to. Each client was paying us between $20 and $400 a month, with the average being $150 a month. Business wasn't too bad as we were grossing about $9,000 every month ($108k / year). However, as much as $9,000 a month may sound to some of you, it really wasn't that much after expenses and taxes and splitting 50/50 with my partner.

Taking all the costs into account and then splitting with my partner, I was personally netting around $2,000 a month. This was enough for me to pay my bills and survive, but nowhere near the amount of money I previously made while working as an analyst for a finance company. Plus, I was seeing that my business had reached a peak at due to the number of clients we were servicing. It became more and more difficult to acquire new clients while maintaining what we had already built.

At this point, I found that I really didn't enjoy the "servicing" side of the business as much as acquiring new clients. Neither did my partner. We started having disagreements on roles and responsibilities that we hadn't previously laid out. My partner and I were entering a new phase of our business and quite frankly, we weren't ready to scale. We were both barely getting by on the money we were making, so bringing on employees just didn't seem feasible.

Looking back, this was where we blew it. Rather than dig our feet in and really make it work, we lost our motivation and momentum, and ultimately decided to stop working on the business and look for jobs that would provide us a higher level of steady income. This was one of the hardest decisions I ever had to make.

This post has already become longer than I originally intended, so I'll spare you the details of the specifics of wrapping things up, but needless to say it got messy. Long story short, my company essentially became one of those fly-by-night businesses that has given the offline marketing industry a negative reputation.

Now I didn't write this confessional post to get scolded by more experienced marketers. Nor do I want it to discourage other people from getting into the business. I hope that fellow Warriors can learn from my experience and not do the same thing I did.


SO WHAT ARE THE TOP 5 THINGS YOU LEARN FROM MY FAILED BUSINESS?

  1. Constantly acquiring new clients isn't necessarily the best way to grow. Servicing a large amount of clients takes a lot of time and effort. Once you have a base of 10 or so solid clients, focus on pleasing them and selling them more services. Your goal should be to have enough diversity of clients that you aren't solely dependent on any one client, but not enough where you can't provide the customer service they deserve.
  2. Prepare to scale and grow. If you really want to take your business to the level where you will not just "get by", but you will actually make a lot of money, you will eventually have to hire employees. You can outsource for awhile, but there will be a point where you will need to bring people on board locally to really grow your business. Know that this is coming and don't spend every penny you make while you are getting towards that point.
  3. If you have a partner, clearly outline your roles and responsibilities. Make sure you identify future roles and responsibilities in anticipation of growth. It can be exciting to enter into business with somebody, but just like a marriage, you aren't always going to be in the honeymoon phase. Clearly identifying roles and responsibilities up front will help mitigate future disputes.
  4. If things start to go downhill, don't just abandon your clients. The never-ending phone calls, angry e-mails, and stress of knowing that you let people down who put their trust (and money!) in you is just not worth it. This is my biggest regret and I still am dealing with the fallout to this day.
  5. Don't give up!! When the going gets tough, and believe me it WILL get tough, you need to dig in and make it work. To be successful in offline marketing, you need to recognize it is a marathon, not a sprint. I look back now and often wonder how much I would have grown my business over the last year if I hadn't given up. I have been fortunate to find a job that pays me very well, but I keep thinking that there is a breakeven point where if I would have continued my business I would be making more money.

I really hope people here find value in this post. I understand it can be a little discouraging to hear about a "failure", but there is a lot that can be learned from failure.

Also, as with everything, there is a silver lining for me personally. As I mentioned above, I was able to very quickly find a job consulting in the energy business. I really enjoy the work I currently do, but even better I have been able to continue to make some money in the offline marketing world. Rather than sell mobile website or Text Messaging Services, I have been making good 'ol fashion websites in my spare time. Rather than go for lower priced monthly residuals, I have been charging in the range or $4,500 for a few different websites I've built over the last year. All of these have been from referrals from existing business contacts (the few I didn't completely alienate!).

I'd like to now open myself up to questions from my fellow Warriors... If you'd like to ask me anything or clarify anything I've said, please respond below. Or if you have dealt with failure yourself, and can relate, please share your story. There is lots that can be learned from others' experiences-- good or bad!
#$100k #business #confession #customers #drove #ground #job #neglecting #true
  • Profile picture of the author Lee M
    Originally Posted by Warrior Ben View Post

    This may come as a surprise for those of you who knew about my business. Myself and a partner had about 60 clients who I had sold mobile websites linked to QR Codes or who we sold Text Messaging to. Each client was paying us between $20 and $400 a month, with the average being $150 a month.

    At this point, I found that I really didn't enjoy the "servicing" side of the business as much as acquiring new clients. Neither did my partner.
    Thank you for your post.

    What were the problems with "servicing" the clients? What types of businesses?

    Were you providing "full" service text messaging ... meaning you were handling the campaigns for your clients? i.e. weekly or monthly contact with them etc.

    And what were the service issues with the mobile websites and QR codes?
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    • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
      Originally Posted by Lee M View Post

      What were the problems with "servicing" the clients? What types of businesses?
      For me, I was more interested in selling and really thrived on getting the deal done. The problems with servicing the clients really came with the amount of time it took. I would usually spend my mornings cold calling and setting up appointments, and then my afternoons going to the appointments. Once we got more and more clients, the requests would start coming in. The problem came with the consistency. It's not like I would get 2 requests a day from clients every day of the month, it was more like some days I would have no requests and other days would have 10. The days with 10 were very busy and stressful. I had a range of businesses, from a few lawyers, some dentists, a couple realtors, a chain of yogurt shops, some restaurants, hair salons and tanning salons and even had an auto mechanic.

      Originally Posted by Lee M View Post

      Were you providing "full" service text messaging ... meaning you were handling the campaigns for your clients? i.e. weekly or monthly contact with them etc.
      Yeah, I was providing full service text messaging, which was the majority of requests I took. Some of my clients would run campaigns twice a week, others just once a month. It was the people who wanted last minute campaigns that would take the most time because they would want to run a text blast right then and there. I would sometimes leave an appointment with a prospective client and have 5 campaigns to set up when I got home. This was also where I started having problems with my partner. I felt he should be doing that, but he wasn't interested.

      Originally Posted by Lee M View Post

      And what were the service issues with the mobile websites and QR codes?
      The mobile websites and QR Codes were pretty much hands off. We would charge about $20 to host the site and make any updates to the site if the client wanted us to. In all reality, most never made any changes, but there was one realtor who was constantly wanting to tweak her site. I made the mistake of not having a limit on the number of changes she could make in our contract, so she ended up being very demanding.

      Another time suck on the QR Codes was that we had one "Analytics" service where we would provide multiple QR Codes that clients could place in different print advertisements. We would then give them monthly reports on the scan rates for the different codes. We only had a couple clients doing this, but since we were doing things very rudimentary, it took a few others every month to create their reports. A more automated QR Code analytics system would have been very helpful!
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  • Profile picture of the author cdl512
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    First, I want to say thank you, because this is one of the rare posts here with real truth.

    The question I want to ask you... is if you were to do this again, would you do it without a partner? It seems to me that almost every partnership will eventually go south. Would you agree that if you didn't have a partner, you'd probably be thriving right now and still growing? I think people can learn from that. I always tell people to avoid the partnership route, but just curious on your take.
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    • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      First, I want to say thank you, because this is one of the rare posts here with real truth.

      The question I want to ask you... is if you were to do this again, would you do it without a partner? It seems to me that almost every partnership will eventually go south. Would you agree that if you didn't have a partner, you'd probably be thriving right now and still growing? I think people can learn from that. I always tell people to avoid the partnership route, but just curious on your take.
      Thanks! I know it's a risk to talk about "failure" because you can lose credibility with some people (like the first reply to this thread!), but it I'm a big believer in lessons learned.

      If I was to do it again, I would NOT go into business with a partner, especially 50/50. Beyond just having a partner, I made the mistake of going into business with a friend. Until just recently, this business caused a huge falling out between us. If I was to go into business with a partner again, I would only go into it where they are a minority partner, like 20% or less. When you go in 50/50 and have fundamental differences with how the business should be run, it causes things to stall out. When things stall out you lose momentum and momentum is what a new business runs on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    classic warrior forum nonsense. Let me sound like I am teaching you something about my failures. You did not fail because of those 5 things, you failed because you failed to provide anything of value to your customers. You people think that marketing is about writing Dan Kennedy style "guru" headlines and sensational copy. You think that providing a mobile site and all the other fluff is marketing, it isn't. Your business failed because you don't know what you are doing, not your 5 point plan to circle jerk your fellow warrior's
    Not sure where your hostility is coming from, but clearly you didn't read my full post. My business had nothing to do with writing headlines or sensational copy. Nor did my failure have anything to do with not providing value for my customers. My customers were very pleased with our services before we decided to throw in the towel.

    As for not knowing what I'm doing, I'll let others be the judge of that. You can choose to learn something from others, or you can choose to criticize and live your life like you have all the answers. Choice is yours, but for me personally, I like to learn and grow.

    -Ben
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  • Profile picture of the author Rearden
    Takes brass balls to admit you fail.

    Truth is most businessmen fail several times, even bankrupting, before hitting it big.

    Used to have a partner myself; biggest mistake I ever made.

    Now that you have wisdom, time to get back into the thick of it, I'd say.
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  • Profile picture of the author cdl512
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    • Profile picture of the author umc
      I appreciate the story. Most people succeed only after failing many times. No shame in that at all. The only real failures are people that never even try. It is nice to see a real story on here instead of all of the hype from people that post just to set up WSO's for sale promising untold riches at the click of a button.
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    • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
      Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

      Ben, if you don't think the headline you wrote is used car salesman class, then you need to unscrew your head out your ass!
      The headline I used for this thread has nothing to do with how I ran my business or the services I offered. You seem to be thinking they are one in the same, which causes me to question whether you understand the difference between WF and reality or not?

      Now if you want to have a legitimate discussion about the value that QR Codes or SMS provides to small business, I'm all for that. In fact, I think you would find that I'm in agreement that the perceived value of what I would sell was far greater than the actual value for most of my clients. However, it wasn't attrition of clients because they were unhappy with the services I provided that caused my business to fail. The responsibility is much more so on ME and my failure to keep pushing forward.
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  • Profile picture of the author James English
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    classic warrior forum nonsense. Let me sound like I am teaching you something about my failures. You did not fail because of those 5 things, you failed because you failed to provide anything of value to your customers. You people think that marketing is about writing Dan Kennedy style "guru" headlines and sensational copy. You think that providing a mobile site and all the other fluff is marketing, it isn't. Your business failed because you don't know what you are doing, not your 5 point plan to circle jerk your fellow warrior's
    While there may be some truth to this, I don't think this was necessary. If you are going to openly attack someone for "not providing value" you could at least contribute to the conversation somewhat.
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  • Profile picture of the author abbot
    Banned
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    when was the list time a warrior forum member with over 1000 posts was ever invited to speak at a conference like Affiliate Summit or SMX or any of those? ever? no? wonder why?
    Why are you here then? You must be one of those guys that never gets laid - and takes his anger out online...
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    For anyone new here...Ben is a legit guy who was well-known on the forum up to about a year ago when I first joined.

    So he's been away, and this is the tale.

    Don't jump on him; he's the real deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author cash89
    cdl512 = adrian browning or whoever he is. Don't people ever get tired of trolling?

    Ben it seems like another problem that you had that you didn't mention is that you didn't set any guidelines for your clients. Seems like you just tried to catch whatever they threw at you whenever they did. A lot of stress could have been avoided if you had certain standards. EX. No last minute projects, must be given 48 hours notice or be charged a premium.

    Your clients have to respect you as much as you respect them or you will get stressed and burnt out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
      Originally Posted by cash89 View Post

      Ben it seems like another problem that you had that you didn't mention is that you didn't set any guidelines for your clients. Seems like you just tried to catch whatever they threw at you whenever they did. A lot of stress could have been avoided if you had certain standards. EX. No last minute projects, must be given 48 hours notice or be charged a premium.
      You are spot on here! Great addition. I was very casual with trying to please clients and it worked at first, but the lack of guidelines definitely contributed to the stress of keeping up with client demands.

      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      For anyone new here...Ben is a legit guy who was well-known on the forum up to about a year ago when I first joined.

      So he's been away, and this is the tale.

      Don't jump on him; he's the real deal.
      Jason, thank you sir! I was waiting to see if some more people from my WF days were still on here!
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    • Profile picture of the author digichik
      Originally Posted by cash89 View Post


      Ben it seems like another problem that you had that you didn't mention is that you didn't set any guidelines for your clients. Seems like you just tried to catch whatever they threw at you whenever they did. A lot of stress could have been avoided if you had certain standards. EX. No last minute projects, must be given 48 hours notice or be charged a premium.

      Your clients have to respect you as much as you respect them or you will get stressed and burnt out.
      This is sooooo true! Once I set guidelines and premium pricing for last minute projects/changes/revisions, the less stress I have and the more I enjoy my business again.

      Welcome back Warrior Ben. I really enjoyed many of your posts and comments in the past, I hope you will stick around and contribute again.

      Please don't look at what happened to your business as a failure, it is a success, because now you know better. What's the saying? Experience is the best teacher...

      You are now in a great position to start again. You have a position you like and a consistent paycheck, perhaps you can use some of that to build a new offline business for yourself, with a solid foundation, without the desperation of being unemployed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by cash89 View Post

      cdl512 = adrian browning or whoever he is. Don't people ever get tired of trolling?

      Ben it seems like another problem that you had that you didn't mention is that you didn't set any guidelines for your clients. Seems like you just tried to catch whatever they threw at you whenever they did. A lot of stress could have been avoided if you had certain standards. EX. No last minute projects, must be given 48 hours notice or be charged a premium.

      Your clients have to respect you as much as you respect them or you will get stressed and burnt out.
      I honestly don't think it's Adrian Browning..."Adrian" can write. There are at least two errors ("were" instead of "where" and "your" instead of "you're" that this person has made.

      But I agree with your statement that qualifying your prospects and setting expectations eliminates a lot of problems down the road. "If you don't tell them they can't do that, can you really get mad when they do?"
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      • Profile picture of the author cash89
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        I honestly don't think it's Adrian Browning..."Adrian" can write. There are at least two errors ("were" instead of "where" and "your" instead of "you're" that this person has made.

        But I agree with your statement that qualifying your prospects and setting expectations eliminates a lot of problems down the road. "If you don't tell them they can't do that, can you really get mad when they do?"
        Must be one of Adrians apprentices or something now! Everyone lookout they're multiplying!!!!

        Jason, that quote is spot on! I think some people are scared to lay down the law with their clients, when in the end most clients like and appreciate the structure. i didn't learn this from my IM I learned from my days managing a restaurant and it has carried over.

        You need to let your customers know what you expect from them also! You need to hold them just as accountable as they hold you. That's how good business is done.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
          Originally Posted by cash89 View Post

          You need to let your customers know what you expect from them also! You need to hold them just as accountable as they hold you. That's how good business is done.
          That is HUGE...I think I want to frame that (or put it on our invoices).
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  • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    Ben - you are an idiot! your headline is a symptom of the used car salesman disease of this forum. That was my point. Your nonsense about why you failed is also not relevant.
    Again, not sure where the hostility is coming from. I'll let others be the judge of whether I'm an idiot or not. I think you're doing a great job at showing who the real idiot is though. You seem to really be projecting some frustrations you have with WF onto my post specifically. If you have such a problem with this forum, why bother spending a Saturday evening here?

    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    I can't help you if you can't see that my response was not just to what you said but the totality of the crap that comes spewing from this place.
    To be clear, I never asked for your help. Again, you seem to be projecting your frustrations with WF onto my post specifically. At least add some value beyond some vague sales tip if you are going to do that.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    trent - why contribute to a group of people that think selling SMS and mobile sites, crappy link building etc. to people is "online marketing", it isn't. You want benefit? ok, I will give you one tip. Sell specificity. Sell clarity of the value, sell the question "why should I buy from you and not your competition?" the problem for you people "warrior forum members" is this requires YOU to learn something and then do the work and not some $40 a month Indian.
    You say why contribute and then you contribute ? confused ?

    More than one forum name ? you seem a little pissed today and seem to be putting all warriors into the same hand basket to hell.
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  • Profile picture of the author internetPro
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    trent - why contribute to a group of people that think selling SMS and mobile sites, crappy link building etc. to people is "online marketing", it isn't. You want benefit? ok, I will give you one tip. Sell specificity. Sell clarity of the value, sell the question "why should I buy from you and not your competition?" the problem for you people "warrior forum members" is this requires YOU to learn something and then do the work and not some $40 a month Indian.
    Dude go away this thread has nothing for you a matter a fact it sounds like you should just leave the forum. If you have a problem with all warrior members. This is unesassary for you to attack Ben here. He is giving an honest testimony that working with business isn't as easy as a lot of people say it is. With your
    comments you have it all figured out good for you start another thread and title it " all warrior members suck and this is why"
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    why am i here? I came this evening because someone sent me an email product from a WSO as a laugh, so I went to look at the WSO page, ended up here and could not resist playing with you people. The people hoping they can set up a business of passive income that is 100% outsourced that churns out headlines that sell hundreds of dollars. Warrior forum - were the hapless spend their days
    Ben has *contributed* to this forum ever since I joined.

    I think your comments are more indicative of you than anything else. Sad really.

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Originally Posted by cdl512 View Post

    why am i here? I came this evening because someone sent me an email product from a WSO as a laugh, so I went to look at the WSO page, ended up here and could not resist playing with you people. The people hoping they can set up a business of passive income that is 100% outsourced that churns out headlines that sell hundreds of dollars. Warrior forum - were the hapless spend their days
    I dont know Ben, although I have read some of his posts, I would say he is more famous for Busting Evie than anything else. Thats what I remember him for anyway. However his story does feel like a real life scenario, that does happen and has even happened to myself a time or two. Kudos for sharing sincerely.

    I also dont know CDL, however the tone IS reminiscent of a group of trolls who make their entire living as parasites, feeding off of the doubts people have about Warriors, and amplifying them... ironically, while they call all warriors parasites.

    Someone said of myself "John Durham owns a domain about auto body shops.... see he's got his finger in all kinds of pies..." Cmon....it was a good keyword, I bought it to eventually make some kind of affiliate site or maybe directory.

    But people dont follow the logic, they follow emotion that comes directly after the word scam is used and all rational goes out the window.

    To me CDL's post doesnt say anything of substance, its trying to play the emotions of the skeptical.

    As for me, I have sold more websites that most people DIAL Prospecting NUMBERS in a lifetime ....so Whatever.

    In any event, welcome back Ben.
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      I would say he is more famous for Busting Evie
      AP had many user names and he doesn't like Ben...
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    I have just one gigantic... huge.. enormous question just eating
    away at me....

    If you and your partner were each netting $2K/mo after expenses
    and taxes why did you wind it up? Why didn't you sell it?

    Even if your partner was taking less than $2K/mo it was still a
    functioning business and a valuable asset.

    Very strange tale...
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    • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      I have just one gigantic... huge.. enormous question just eating
      away at me....

      If you and your partner were each netting $2K/mo after expenses
      and taxes why did you wind it up? Why didn't you sell it?
      Great question! Selling the business was something we considered, but ultimately we decided to mostly just take our hands off it and keep collecting the monthly residuals for those who stayed on board. I should also clarify that when I say we wound it up, it wasn't like we just shut everything down the next day and called it good. I didn't really go into the details about winding it up in my original post, but in a nutshell, we contacted our SMS users and let them know we were closing up shop. Our white label SMS reseller had a module where clients could login and send their own text blasts, so we allowed clients to do it on their own if they wanted. We also gave them the option to not continue.

      About 75% didn't want to continue so we just closed them down as clients right away. This wasn't too surprising since a lot of clients had signed up with us, but then never actively used our service after the initial month. We also closed down the clients that we didn't have set up for automatic billing through their credit card because we didn't want to continue sending out invoices. (It would seem kind of funny to say we were shutting down our business, but then keep sending them monthly bills!) For the others that did want to continue, some did, but I found that if I wasn't holding their hand in sending out text blasts, the businesses owners didn't really take the time to do it on their own. Over the next few months, most of the businesses quit sending any texts altogether and after about 6 months nobody was actively using our service. We kept the automatic billing going, but eventually people either disputed the charge and quit paying, or their cards expired and we obviously didn't track them down to get updated information.

      Where things got messy was when people wanted updates to their mobile website. Because our mobile website clients were all on an automatic monthly billing plan (we used Intuit's GoPayment for those who are interested), we just kept those going and didn't alert those clients. This was a mistake on my part. I figured since it was just passive income it would be no big deal. Of course requests would come in every once in awhile from some clients to make changes to their site, and I would do it at first, but then I got real busy with my new job, that I started ignoring phone calls and e-mails. With a few clients who became very demanding and wanting to know why I wasn't returning their calls, I finally called them, explained the situation and ended up giving them the HTML files for their mobile sites free of charge.

      Hindsight 20/20, I would have done things a lot differently. I probably would have spent the time into looking to sell the business, but when I was fed up with it, I just didn't think I had the energy to go through it. And while we did have some good revenues, we were also a reseller, so a lot of our "assets" weren't necessarily proprietary.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lee M
        Originally Posted by Warrior Ben View Post

        Hindsight 20/20, I would have done things a lot differently. I probably would have spent the time into looking to sell the business, but when I was fed up with it, I just didn't think I had the energy to go through it. And while we did have some good revenues, we were also a reseller, so a lot of our "assets" weren't necessarily proprietary.
        One thing I don't recall being discussed here is ... you mentioned 60 clients (some of which were using text message marketing, others mobile websites) ... BUT ... were they getting any sort of ROI from the monthly fee they paid you?

        Even if you were to try and "sell" the business ... a sharp business person would look deep into WHAT you're actually delivering to the client. i.e. able to boost their sales etc. Because in the end ... this is all that matters.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jay Rhome
          Hey thanks for sharing your story! It's inspiring, not demoralizing at all IMO. And if you built it once, you know you can do it again if you so choose to in the future.

          BTW would you agree that having a partner actually HELPED you get things off the ground initially before becoming a fatal liability?


          It was the people who wanted last minute campaigns that would take the most time because they would want to run a text blast right then and there. I would sometimes leave an appointment with a prospective client and have 5 campaigns to set up when I got home. This was also where I started having problems with my partner. I felt he should be doing that, but he wasn't interested.
          I learned with websites that some clients are a pain for the small stuff. So, for all the new ones, a policy of "$50/hour for changes, one hour minimum", or take a monthly service charge to cover 1 to 8 changes a month is what makes it viable - and I still have ditched selling websites for the most part as I too dislike this part, much like you describe.

          That's why I avoid this issue you mentioned with SMS. Clients have up to Thursday 11h59 to send the text blast they want for the next week (Sunday to Saturday). Emergency blasts are possible, but at extra charge AND with still a 48 business hour deadline. I don't want to be at the whim of clients.

          You have to "train" them not come up with last minute stuff or they'll be all over you. When I do have enough growth to hire people, I might loosen that policy. But not with one employee as if she/he goes away, is sick, etc., I'd have to do it all!


          Originally Posted by Lee M View Post

          One thing I don't recall being discussed here is ... you mentioned 60 clients (some of which were using text message marketing, others mobile websites) ... BUT ... were they getting any sort of ROI from the monthly fee they paid you?
          I too wonder about that. SMS clients that have built a decent list of subscribers should be making a lot more money that they spend on the service and thus not want to quit. Do you mind sharing what you think went wrong there?
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    Partner-ships are sinking-ships.

    That is the biggest problem I see people having. Without the partner, you could have paid yourself twice as much. You could have hired someone to help a little sooner.

    And most importantly, you could have dug in and fought for the business. It is funny when there are two people it's like this negativity can double also.

    Don't kick yourself. I have built more than one business and had it fail. It hurts a little but it is worth it.

    You will be back in a few years when you can't stand to suffer the indignities of corporate life any longer. It's hard to shake the startup bug!
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    @ Prevelant

    My Dad use to say that anything with two heads is a freak. Although I know someone on this forum who has a wonderful partnership that works well for him.
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    • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      My Dad use to say that anything with two heads is a freak. Although I know someone on this forum who has a wonderful partnership that works well for him.
      LOL...some people can deal with the freak OK...but it is still a freak!
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Warrior Ben View Post

      Thanks! I know it's a risk to talk about "failure" because you can lose credibility with some people (like the first reply to this thread!), but it I'm a big believer in lessons learned.
      Man.. I have failed so many times, and I don't see failure as a good thing, but I have learned to appreciate the failures I've had. Forget credibility.. what is real is real and what is fake is fake.

      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Although I know someone on this forum who has a wonderful partnership that works well for him.
      Yeah, but it also works well until it doesn't. LOL. For most though, there will always be some kind of problem.
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      • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        Man.. I have failed so many times, and I don't see failure as a good thing, but I have learned to appreciate the failures I've had. Forget credibility.. what is real is real and what is fake is fake. .
        Yeah, I have lost track at how many "failures" I've had... Before I got into mobile websites and SMS, I tried my hand at SEO and had some mild success performing Reputation Management services, but those didn't work out. Were they failures? I guess in the sense that they didn't work out, but I so quickly pivoted to a new aspect of offline marketing (mobile/SMS) that they didn't really feel like failures, most just learning the ropes of selling to businesses. I think part of the reason I was quicker to give up on this business was because I had just come off a much bigger failure of a business prior to going into offline marketing.

        For those who are interested, I have actually written quite a bit about my failures on my blog. You can check out some of them here, here, and here. (Those posts talk about my experience as a day trader, creating a college girls calendar, and as a debt buyer.) I've found it kind of therapeutic to write about my experiences and hopefully others can learn from it!
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  • Profile picture of the author DianaHeuser
    Welcome back Ben.

    You raise some interesting points about maintaining a business once you have got past the start up phase.

    The on-going maintenance is where the work really is (and the profit) if you do it right. That is one of the challenges I have been dealing with and the lesson learnt is that I cannot do it all myself. I have to outsource more of it in order for me to keep focusing on the sales and marketing.

    As for the really insulting remark about outsourcing to Indians - some of my best outsource resources are from India. They are dedicated, committed and professional in their work.

    As far as partnerships are concerned, I will never go into one with this business of mine. I would rather out-source and give them a share of the profits than have someone tell me how I should run my business. I have yet to find someone with the same work ethic and dedication to customers that I have.

    Thank you for sharing. It takes courage to admit your failures but failures are so good for you. You learn more from them than success

    Di
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by DianaHeuser View Post

      I have yet to find someone with the same work ethic and dedication to customers that I have.



      Di

      That's because they dont EXIST. You are the hardest working person I know of.
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  • Profile picture of the author infomaniacs
    Great post, and I appreciate you posting it I am similar in the way that I love to sell, sell, sell, and love the marketing side of my business and the thrill of a sale or registering new people in my team, but I struggle with the follow up.
    I am getting better, and am starting to enjoy it now, but I did have to force myself in the beginning. My strength is in sales, follow up is definitely an area where I have opportunity to improve.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by infomaniacs View Post

      My strength is in sales, follow up is definitely an area where I have opportunity to improve.
      This is also why, in many cases, great sales PEOPLE dont necessarily make great Sales "Managers"... We all have our forte's. Different skill sets altogether.

      Also- this is why great sales people dont necessarily make entrepreneurs.

      Just because you can program doesnt mean you can sell your services, and just because you can sell your services doesnt mean you can run a day to day operation. All of these skill sets require development to be an entrepreneur.
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      • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
        John

        Happy Holidays. good to see your face on the avatar

        also your spot on with this statement:

        this is why great sales people dont necessarily make entrepreneurs.

        thank god.. otherwise these guys would be stealing our businesses away
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    Ben what you found here was a classic in all businesses.

    People find something they are good at and decide to make it a business. What they soon find out is once they get to a certain size they are not making as much money as they hoped and really don't enjoy all the other parts of running a business.

    The truth is for a lot of people they really would be better off getting a job that will pay them well for the skills they like to do and can do well.

    Running a business is not for everyone. And you can't build yourself a job (vs a business) and expect to succeed 99% of the time. Now if you like independence and don't want to work for anyone else you happen to have one of the skills (selling) that can fall into that 1%. You can build a job around selling independently for others. Though if your customers were local you may have burned too many bridges to do it in that area.

    Like Jason I thank you for the honesty. We get far too little of that here. Everyone likes to make this building a business thing sound easy because they make money selling that dream.
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    • Profile picture of the author sandalwood
      Ben,

      Appreciate your story. Most of us have been there done that. It is what we did after the done that that is important. Sounds like you now know what to do.

      I watched a documentary on the Great Wall the other night. Seems the majority of it was built by a fellow named Qi Jiguang (pro Chi Chi Guan). Now what does he have to do with you?

      He built one thousand miles of that wall in under one year. That my friend is quite a feat given there were people called Monguls who raided constantly. Today the US Army has a field manual:

      United States Army Field Manual of Military Operations (FM-3-0, sections 4-32 to 4-39) [14] are:

      that outlines EVERY military operation:

      1.Objective (Direct every military operation towards a clearly defined, decisive, and attainable objective)
      2.Offensive (Seize, retain, and exploit the initiative)
      3.Mass (Concentrate combat power at the decisive place and time)
      4.Economy of Force (Allocate minimum essential combat power to secondary efforts)
      5.Maneuver (Place the enemy in a disadvantageous position through the flexible application of combat power)
      6.Unity of Command (For every objective, ensure unity of effort under one responsible commander)
      7.Security (Never permit the enemy to acquire an unexpected advantage)
      8.Surprise (Strike the enemy at a time, at a place, or in a manner for which he is unprepared)
      9.Simplicity (Prepare clear, uncomplicated plans and clear, concise orders to ensure thorough understanding)

      In civilian life we call it a business plan. BTW, most of the above comes from Qi and Sun-Tzu. We did refine some of those prinicples in our battle experiences.

      The point is tell me what in that list of 9 can't be interpreted from a business standpoint. Your post screams #1 and #6 were in dis-ease while #8 came out of the blue and caught you napping.

      This isn't a lecture by any means nor is it a seminar. It is merely a sharing of knowledge from another view point. I still stand by my statement that it is what you do after the done that part of your experience.

      Good luck, you sound like a heck of a guy.

      Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author laird
    Ben,

    Great share and reminder that acquiring customers is easy but keeping that relationship strong through unparalleled-servicing is what solidifies your continuity income.

    I had two partners in a temporary job placement business we started in the early 2000's, one of which was a silent partner. (Formed as an LLC.) The active partner was a solid contributor for the first 6 months and then started taking extra days off, leaving early, not making sales calls, etc.; Seriously and adversely-affected the business. After a couple months of this, I sat the partners down and had them buy me out. They did. Four months later, they closed shop due to lack of capital and clientele.

    I don't foresee myself going the partnership route again.
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  • Profile picture of the author d1ey0u
    Thank you for this post Ben. I always enjoy reading REAL stories from other business owners. It sucks that your business failed, but you provided valuable info to the other members and myself. I'll be checking out your blog!
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  • Profile picture of the author Sakana
    What some people failed to see in this post is the fact that someone out there put his money where his mouth is and did it from start to finish. No shortcuts, no guru BS and no gimmicks - Pure hard work and dedication.

    Personally, I don't see this as a business failure. More like failed scalability within this business model.
    Keep in mind, the business stayed cash flow positive all the way to the end. Partially still is.

    Ok. Few questions for you Ben,

    - What type of markets/clients you found more responsive to this type of service. i.e SMS/Moblie?

    - What has prevented you from providing other services to your clients in order to generate more income?

    - Will you share the white label company name you've worked with?

    - Would you consider going into business for yourself again or this is it?

    I'll stop there and thanks in advance for taking the time answering my questions.
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    • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
      Originally Posted by Sakana View Post

      What some people failed to see in this post is the fact that someone out there put his money where his mouth is and did it from start to finish. No shortcuts, no guru BS and no gimmicks - Pure hard work and dedication.

      Personally, I don't see this as a business failure. More like failed scalability within this business model.
      Keep in mind, the business stayed cash flow positive all the way to the end. Partially still is.

      Ok. Few questions for you Ben,

      - What type of markets/clients you found more responsive to this type of service. i.e SMS/Moblie?
      For SMS I found the best markets to be restaurants and the chain of frozen yogurt shops we had. These businesses can offer high margin freebies and are always looking for traffic in the door. I found the SMS model to be easy to explain to them and for the most part they almost all saw the potential. (Getting them to close is a different story though!)

      For QR Codes/Mobile websites I targeted businesses who were already running print ads. I wrote about acquiring QR Code/mobile website clients in much more detail on a WF post here: http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...te-client.html

      Originally Posted by Sakana View Post

      - What has prevented you from providing other services to your clients in order to generate more income?
      Nothing really. The thing with providing additional services to our clients is that they usually don't want to buy an add on right away. They want to feel you out and see if you are going to be a good person to work with. So when we didn't have initial luck with getting upsells we just got so in the mode of cold calling new potential new clients, setting up an appointment, and going for the close that we didn't really focus on it. Big mistake. I'm sure there's sales tricks that other Warriors can chime in on to get upsells at the time of the sale, but I found that it isn't quite like offering a OTO on an info product online.

      Originally Posted by Sakana View Post

      - Will you share the white label company name you've worked with?
      PM me and I can give you the details.

      Originally Posted by Sakana View Post

      - Would you consider going into business for yourself again or this is it?
      I will definitely go into business for myself again. At this point I've had so many failures (check out the links to my blog earlier in this thread if you want to read about some of them), that I feel like something has to eventually work out. However, I'll definitely be smarter about going into business for myself in the future. I won't do 50/50 with a partner again. I'll make sure I'm better off financially before taking the plunge. My mobile marketing business was a way for me to make money after I had a larger business go under. My savings were depleted and it made things much more stressful. If my partner and I could have taken the $2k we were each paying ourselves to live and pumped it into the business, I think there's no question we would have been able to make it over the scaling hump.

      Originally Posted by Sakana View Post

      I'll stop there and thanks in advance for taking the time answering my questions.
      No problem, let me know if you have any more!
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  • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
    Failure is absolutely a good thing. The problem is, failure generally doesn't feel good till a few years later.

    Like the first time I got rejected by a woman. It crushed me. I was a mess for about 6 months straight. Then I went on an angry rampage seducing every woman I could find.... and failing even worse. But I stuck to it and never gave up. And now I have the ability to talk to women and be totally comfortable around them. I can put myself fully on the line and not GAF anymore.

    In business, I also failed many times. But that gave me the ability to grow and learn from my mistakes. My brothers best friend had a business that went bankrupt, he got a divorce, and lost custody of his children. For 2 years he was a mess. Eventually he started a new business, in the same exact industry, and 6 years later he's filthy rich and has a new & better wife.

    I honestly do NOT think he would be so wealthy today if his first business didn't go bankrupt and his wife didn't leave him. It is those dark, dredful times of turmoil when good people show their best faces. It is also those same times when bad people become exposed to the world. So there are good and bad sides to everything in life. No single experience is actually "bad" or "good" imo. Its just 1 page in the book of life. And you have to read the whole book to see how it ends. =] (my weak attempt to sound smart lol).

    -Red
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  • Profile picture of the author Carl Fridsjö
    Thanks for sharing Ben, I highly appreciate it. You've probably got a ton of new experience and insights that will help you with your next project.

    This also shows the importance of doing the numbers, calculating and figuring out how to price & a basic plan for how to scale in an early stage. A business netting me $2k/m at full capacity I wouldn't see as viable and therefore not pursuit without drastic changes of the setup. It sounds though (from the little info I have) as you did have a pretty good foundation that might have been possible to save with some structural changes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dmagnet
    Thomas Edison is credited for saying something similar but...

    You did not fail. You have successfully discovered how to not do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Qamar
    I think Ben's story has taught me something very very valuable that many people tend to miss including myself.

    More often than not we are too busy looking for the best ways to get clients that we can sell our services to, we are always focused on the methods to acquire them for e.g direct mailing, emailing, cold calls etc. We are busy learning of places to get these clients.

    But when all these clients suddenly appear in our business and sometimes they came in a big "bunch" we will not be able to handle them effectively as to service everyone of them professionally. Usually this scenario will happen unexpectedly and you will be caught off-guard!

    In the spirit of getting more clients and more income, most people forgot that for each client it is not as simple as grabbing their money and give them what they want and we can be happy and attend to the next customer.

    Remember we all are dealing with humans here. In reality things won't be as smooth as what most offliners would thought to be. This is because we must remember that customers come in many forms of attitude and demand.

    Some are really really fussy and can be a pain in the neck and it will cost you your time and energy to entertain each one of these clients.

    I think other than worrying on how to make cold calls or how to close a deal, every offliners MUST be prepared to handle all the nitty gritty things that will come later after you accept payment from them. And this after service thingie will be a continous affair as long as your client is still paying you.

    So I'd suggest that in order to stay longer in the market of your choice is to ask yourselves are you able to handle all of the after service demands that might come from your customers? If not, how can you be prepared in advance before you dive into the world of offline marketing and be making "tons of money"?

    This is very important so that you will be able to fulfill what you have promised your clients. It is also important for your company's reputation in order for you to stay very long in this business and actually make tons of money and be your own boss.

    In conclusion, I feel that proper planning about the services you are selling is very vital, we shouldn't only worry about getting clients but also be worrying on how to serve them justly after they invest their money on our services.

    Thank you Ben for your honesty in sharing your real life experiences. I believe this can be of great help to most of the aspiring offliners here.





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    • Profile picture of the author Pierre!
      Hello Warrior Ben - The evil Warrior that gave me my first taste of Mobile Websites...

      And that Taste was FREE! And it is still great content!

      Great to hear you survived the experience! From what I have read from you, it's no sweat. You have all the traits of respect, integrity, accountability, and most importantly a low threshold for stupidity.

      All good qualities if you ask me.

      Yah, takes a while to walk it off... The good news is, Chicks Dig Scars! The more the merrier, so don't stop now. Just walk it off, talk it out, and wait and dream till the next Good Run comes along!

      I have my own 'recovery' going on, just about on the same lines, except he got all the money. I could run after the money, but truthfully it's not enough to get into court. One day it will come back to him.

      Anyway, good to see you back. Good to see you blogging again. Blogging is the first thing to go when you get deep in the weeds... so it's a good sign when it comes back!

      Thanks for sharing your failure, your humanity. It's a clear sign your heart hasn't turned, and this, above all, is a very good sign.

      You even had a Troll show up to play!

      Now that's what I call The Beginning Of The Comeback Trail...

      Merry Christmas
      Happy Hanukkah
      God Bless!

      Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author Warrior Ben
    Hi Patrick! Thank you very much for your very kind words! I hope to continue blogging, I have had a little bit of downtime around the holidays, which has given me the time to blog. Things will be picking up again for me with a new project in January, so hopefully I'll still be able to find the time!

    Originally Posted by Lee M View Post

    One thing I don't recall being discussed here is ... you mentioned 60 clients (some of which were using text message marketing, others mobile websites) ... BUT ... were they getting any sort of ROI from the monthly fee they paid you?
    So with SMS, there was a small ROI in some cases. The issue with SMS is that it takes awhile to build up a sizable list to see any real returns. This needs to be explained to the small business owners so that they don't just quite after a month or two. As with the mobile websites/QR Codes, there is really no tangible ROI. It's the same as having a non-ecommerce website. Good to have, but hard to measure ROI when you aren't selling anything directly on it. I pitched it more as an add-on to their print advertising, not as a direct way to get an ROI, but in all honesty the scan rates of QR Codes were really low.

    Originally Posted by Jay Rhome View Post

    BTW would you agree that having a partner actually HELPED you get things off the ground initially before becoming a fatal liability?
    Yeah, although I wouldn't go into a 50/50 partnership again, there are a lot of benefits to having somebody else on board from the beginning. There is accountability and energy that you can play off of and it really helps with motivation for getting things off the ground. As I've mentioned before, the problems I had with a 50/50 partnership was that it was difficult to move forward when there were fundamental disagreements as to the direction we should take our business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lee M
      Originally Posted by Warrior Ben View Post

      So with SMS, there was a small ROI in some cases. The issue with SMS is that it takes awhile to build up a sizable list to see any real returns. As with the mobile websites/QR Codes, there is really no tangible ROI.
      Above is what REALLY stands out to me.

      From two perspectives.

      1. Your customer must get a decent ROI, otherwise they will NOT continue with your services.

      2. If you feel like you're really not delivering for them (i.e. helping them) then it can leave you with an "empty" feeling. Almost as if what you're doing is not meaningful enough to really drive you! Makes it easy for you to walk away from it all because you're not having an impact.

      This becomes especially important anytime a "service" is offered which is based on achieving certain MARKETING "results." Compared to if you offered a restaurant a good deal on 'paper napkins' ... then it becomes more about how your product is better because of good price, larger size, thicker, more colorful, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    Ben, fantastic post. Have not been on myself for about a year much. These are certainly lessons I have learned with previous businesses and have applied to current business.

    The most critical one to me is the partnership problem. It never works unless it is VERY VERY extensively laid out in the beginning as Sandalwood said. Too often then not it creates misgivings for how much each partner contributes to how much is collected. Just the nature of humanity. Not going to change it. Lesson learned. Someone needs to retain ultimate control and ultimate reward or nothing gets done.

    The other lesson I have learned more so now is competition. Understanding not only the perceived competition as well as unperceived competition is so critical that it can literally put you out of business over-night. Reading Art of War certain helps that. Understanding WHY you are better than a competitor is critical to this...this is what your client's tell you, not what you THINK is the difference. The way I set myself apart from a competitor is in understanding my client's needs more. My one competitor is what I call a run and gun service person. Absolutely no interest past delivering a fast mediocre product. By actually doubling my prices and showing clients exactly how they can use my product (even giving them some free Google Marketing advice), I have gained access to some businesses that spend thousands per month on other services I offer. My competitor...making virtually nothing and is almost out of business now.

    A critical lesson to me that relates to the last is picking one service that can be delivered quick and has a super value to a customer. Do as many of those types of services as you can and only get into long-term services with a few customers that you gel with...or else you will head down the same path you described....cant deliver for the amount of money you are making. Lesson, read The E-Myth to understand this issue more. The second part to that is make sure you are REALLY good at what you are giving them. Good clients want good products and will pay good money for that. They will actually be suspicious of why someone is not charging as much as you are and perceive you as a fly-by-night like all the others they see walk in the doors each day.


    The last lesson I have learned is called the Google factor. It is by far the most critical and I would have never learned without offering a Google service to clients. When people (local businesses) see what I can offer them and know it is going to be part of Google maps, they instantly perceive the value of it. I virtually never have to sell them on the idea. They know it's Google and they know it's new and they just get it all around. A friend of mine actually used to sell sites as well door to door and said 10% of the time people would listen or understand what he was selling but now it is 90% receptive people instead of “THAT LOOK”. Can't beat that. I use this service as a lost leader service (even though it certainly pays the bills) to gain access to people that just get what I am trying to do for them (get them more customers). I can literally pick any 10 businesses I want to go forward with in my city. I have even turned down places that I just did not mesh with (usually clients that wanted something for nothing and THAT is the death of a business).


    So all in all, I am glad you posted and learned your lessons and are continuing. That feeling of disappointing people can be hard, but they will eventually understand your reasoning just as you will either make up for it or move on.


    Good luck.
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