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Critique My Idea

by PaulintheSticks
30 replies
Thanks to Claude for inspiring this idea with his response to my earlier post re "performance based" work.

So my idea in a nutshell is to send out a sales letter to high end local businesses (no donut shops) offering a totally no-risk 3 hours of business and marketing consultation (2 hour initial and 1 hour bonus follow up) for $200.

So the consultation is at their office for their convenience. Once I find out what their main problems are which almost always come down to lack of a systematic marketing plan, I lay out everything I've ever learned over the past 15 years from gurus like Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, Barnum, Levinson, Godin et al. including strategies for positioning, list building, retention, referrals, advertising, automated IM, tracking and ROI, etc. and tailor strategies for their particular business. And then of course answer their questions.

There is no charge up front....they don't pay until the consultation is over. And if they don't feel they've gotten at least 10x the value for their $200, they get their money back (ie they don't have to pay).

Here are my initial thoughts about this:
1. I don't have credentials and very much experience so this would get my foot in the door.
2. I've used these strategies in my own retail business with very good results and obviously so have some of the most successful businesses in the world. So this establishes some credibility.
3. The upsell potential would be huge.
4. Even if it doesn't lead to upsells, I can live with $65/hour.
5. I'm sure I can deliver on the promise of the 10x value but even if there are a few who don't want to pay the $200, they would probably want to pay me something like $50 for my time since they will absolutely get a lot of value from this.
6. My risk is the cost of mailing letters and my time and gas money since I already have a big list.
7. Seems like the letter will be the key.
8. If this works, I'll be creating a "how to make $500/day for offline consultants" WSO.

Would appreciate any feedback on this idea.
#critique #idea
  • Profile picture of the author Kung Fu Backlinks
    Hmmm well being completely honest, the idea of charging money at the end and then only IF they feel it was worth it seems a bit hokey to me. I wouldn't even attend such a seminar. You'd probably have better luck going through the chamber of commerce and perhaps charging a really small fee and donating 100% of that to a local charity. You could even approach that charity ahead of time and ask them to attend and even send out an invitation to their own list of local business owners.
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
      Thanks Kung fu but I'm not sure why having your customer pay after you delivered your service seems hokey. Isn't that usually how business is conducted? And why is giving a money back guarantee (refunding if the customer doesn't feel the service was valuable), hokey? What you're arguing against is really just basic risk reversal. I'm really not following your reasoning.

      I always find it funny that many of the greatest marketing minds stress how important risk reversal is esp. if you are lacking in credentials, experience and credibility and strategies like giving your service away initially to establish your credibility and get your foot in the door but then invariably someone will say you should never give your service away because it will lessen the perceived value. It can't be both ways. Well obviously there are going to be some people who would think it bizarre or hokey but I really wonder would it be even close to a majority? And if so, why would people like Jay Abraham and Dan Kennedy stress it so strongly? Maybe they don't know what they're talking about but personally I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kung Fu Backlinks
        Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

        Thanks Kung fu but I'm not sure why having your customer pay after you delivered your service seems hokey. Isn't that usually how business is conducted? And why is giving a money back guarantee (refunding if the customer doesn't feel the service was valuable), hokey? What you're arguing against is really just basic risk reversal. I'm really not following your reasoning.

        I always find it funny that many of the greatest marketing minds stress how important risk reversal is esp. if you are lacking in credentials, experience and credibility and strategies like giving your service away initially to establish your credibility and get your foot in the door but then invariably someone will say you should never give your service away because it will lessen the perceived value. It can't be both ways. Well obviously there are going to be some people who would think it bizarre or hokey but I really wonder would it be even close to a majority? And if so, why would people like Jay Abraham and Dan Kennedy stress it so strongly? Maybe they don't know what they're talking about but personally I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

        Sure thing, man. You asked for feedback, I gave it. Take or leave it, but getting defensive seems unnecessary. I mean, are you asking for feedback or just a few pats on the back to tell you your idea is brilliant and can't be improved upon?
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        • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
          Originally Posted by Kung Fu Backlinks View Post

          Sure thing, man. You asked for feedback, I gave it. Take or leave it, but getting defensive seems unnecessary. I mean, are you asking for feedback or just a few pats on the back to tell you your idea is brilliant and can't be improved upon?
          Sorry Kung Fu. No offense taken. But when you say having a client pay after the service is delivered is hokey and that offering a money back guarantee is hokey, it just doesn't register as rational. I just think its interesting that you have that perspective when it goes against everything every extremely successful marketer I've learned from says.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kung Fu Backlinks
            Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

            Sorry Kung Fu. No offense taken. But when you say having a client pay after the service is delivered is hokey and that offering a money back guarantee is hokey, it just doesn't register as rational. I just think its interesting that you have that perspective when it goes against everything every extremely successful marketer I've learned from says.
            That isn't what I was calling "hokey." I mustn't have explained well enough. I think the idea of giving them the option of paying is bad. I've been invited to local business seminars a few times, and if I ever saw one of them suggesting that I could go and only pay if I thought the info was worth it, I'd be turned off immediately. Either charge me or don't. Doing otherwise does not come off as professional and I can't imagine how that would ever set the right tone for future business.

            Obviously, that's just my opinion. Take it or leave it. I have no interest in defending it.
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            • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
              Originally Posted by Kung Fu Backlinks View Post

              That isn't what I was calling "hokey." I mustn't have explained well enough. I think the idea of giving them the option of paying is bad. I've been invited to local business seminars a few times, and if I ever saw one of them suggesting that I could go and only pay if I thought the info was worth it, I'd be turned off immediately. Either charge me or don't. Doing otherwise does not come off as professional and I can't imagine how that would ever set the right tone for future business.
              Ok, I see what you're saying now and that makes sense. Of course the purpose of the "pay me after I deliver" was to make it as easy and low risk as possible for them to buy to increase conversions but I know you can go too far and have to find the right balance so your offer doesn't lose credibility. Kind of like selling an info product for $27 and giving a bonus worth $1000.
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
    Also, my sales letter is drafted, so if anyone would like to take a peek and give a critique, I would appreciate the feedback.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

    Thanks to Claude for inspiring this idea with his response to my earlier post re "performance based" work.

    So my idea in a nutshell is to send out a sales letter to high end local businesses (no donut shops) offering a totally no-risk 3 hours of business and marketing consultation (2 hour initial and 1 hour bonus follow up) for $200.

    So the consultation is at their office for their convenience. Once I find out what their main problems are which almost always come down to lack of a systematic marketing plan, I lay out everything I've ever learned over the past 15 years from gurus like Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, Barnum, Levinson, Godin et al. including strategies for positioning, list building, retention, referrals, advertising, automated IM, tracking and ROI, etc. and tailor strategies for their particular business. And then of course answer their questions.

    There is no charge up front....they don't pay until the consultation is over. And if they don't feel they've gotten at least 10x the value for their $200, they get their money back (ie they don't have to pay).

    Here are my initial thoughts about this:
    1. I don't have credentials and very much experience so this would get my foot in the door.
    2. I've used these strategies in my own retail business with very good results and obviously so have some of the most successful businesses in the world. So this establishes some credibility.
    3. The upsell potential would be huge.
    4. Even if it doesn't lead to upsells, I can live with $65/hour.
    5. I'm sure I can deliver on the promise of the 10x value but even if there are a few who don't want to pay the $200, they would probably want to pay me something like $50 for my time since they will absolutely get a lot of value from this.
    6. My risk is the cost of mailing letters and my time and gas money since I already have a big list.
    7. Seems like the letter will be the key.
    8. If this works, I'll be creating a "how to make $500/day for offline consultants" WSO.

    Would appreciate any feedback on this idea.
    I'm thinking you just told everyone how you plan to do that so there is no need for a WSO...and those that have any common sense (or more experience than you) can fill in the blanks of what you didn't say.

    Why don't you call the list you have to save yourself driving around to places that aren't interested?

    Edit: #5 is off. If they aren't going to pay you $200 because you told them not to, they aren't going to volunteer to pay $50 if you don't ask.
    People, as much as we want them to be honest and fair, are not, if you give them the option to pay nothing, they will take it.
    You need to charge 200, and leave it at that...and get it upfront as a check or cash and leave it on the table during the meeting...then take it when you are done.
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
      [quote=Mwind076;7585143]I'm thinking you just told everyone how you plan to do that so there is no need for a WSO...and those that have any common sense (or more experience than you) can fill in the blanks of what you didn't say. [quote/]

      Oh I realized that and sure, if they can write a letter that sells, more power to 'em. But if they want my letter their gonna have to fork over the $6.99

      Why don't you call the list you have to save yourself driving around to places that aren't interested?
      I think you misunderstood. I'll be mailing a letter directing them to a squeeze page or to call. When I mentioned gas money that was just to drive to the appts.

      Edit: #5 is off. If they aren't going to pay you $200 because you told them not to, they aren't going to volunteer to pay $50 if you don't ask.
      People, as much as we want them to be honest and fair, are not, if you give them the option to pay nothing, they will take it.
      You need to charge 200, and leave it at that...and get it upfront as a check or cash and leave it on the table during the meeting...then take it when you are done.
      So you're saying no risk reversal? Seems like a tough sell without it. Thanks for the feedback.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
        Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post


        I think you misunderstood. I'll be mailing a letter directing them to a squeeze page or to call. When I mentioned gas money that was just to drive to the appts.
        I still say call...but I'm a cold caller.
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
      Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

      Edit: #5 is off. If they aren't going to pay you $200 because you told them not to, they aren't going to volunteer to pay $50 if you don't ask. People, as much as we want them to be honest and fair, are not, if you give them the option to pay nothing, they will take it.
      You need to charge 200, and leave it at that...and get it upfront as a check or cash and leave it on the table during the meeting...then take it when you are done.
      Are you saying that risk reversal is a bad strategy because too many people will take advantage of it even if they believe they got the value you promised? I'm going to have to test this because it hasn't been my experience in my business career. I've always used risk reversal and while it may not have had a huge positive impact on my conversions, it definitely didn't have a negative impact on my margins. This was mostly in hard goods retail though so its obviously not nearly as important as selling info.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
        Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

        Are you saying that risk reversal is a bad strategy because too many people will take advantage of it even if they believe they got the value you promised? I'm going to have to test this because it hasn't been my experience in my business career. I've always used risk reversal and while it may not have had a huge positive impact on my conversions, it definitely didn't have a negative impact on my margins. This was mostly in hard goods retail though so its obviously not nearly as important as selling info.
        I'll be brief, in this explanation...if you give them the "idea" that your information/meeting/seminar may appear NOT to be worth $200, to some people...they are likely to go into it thinking "ok, if I don't like this, or don't find out how to make easy money/get clients in my door quicker...I'll just say I didn't like it."

        You are putting the idea in their head that they MAY not like what they hear, and MAY not find a value. You need to present it that they WILL learn something, they WILL get their money's worth and that you are giving them a DEAL by charging $200.

        It's not about the risk reversal, it's about presenting yourself and your services as VALUABLE.
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        • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
          Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

          I'll be brief, in this explanation...if you give them the "idea" that your information/meeting/seminar may appear NOT to be worth $200, to some people...they are likely to go into it thinking "ok, if I don't like this, or don't find out how to make easy money/get clients in my door quicker...I'll just say I didn't like it."

          You are putting the idea in their head that they MAY not like what they hear, and MAY not find a value. You need to present it that they WILL learn something, they WILL get their money's worth and that you are giving them a DEAL by charging $200.

          It's not about the risk reversal, it's about presenting yourself and your services as VALUABLE.
          Ok we'll agree to disagree because while I understand what you're saying, you could apply that same logic to every guarantee or risk reversal and do we need to even talk about the statistics on the increase of conversions when using risk reversal? And personally I think risk reversal is the exact thing that shows how much you believe in your service.

          IMO, the more important issue is not that you put the idea in their head but that they already have that idea in their head because they don't know you from adam and so don't trust you from the get go.

          Also, I think we have a fundamentally different perspective. I've experienced the people I've come across on my path as honest and generous. Its been extremely rare that anyone has ever tried to take advantage of or cheat me. But it sounds like your experience may have been different.
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

    Thanks to Claude for inspiring this idea with his response to my earlier post re "performance based" work.

    So my idea in a nutshell is to send out a sales letter to high end local businesses (no donut shops) offering a totally no-risk 3 hours of business and marketing consultation (2 hour initial and 1 hour bonus follow up) for $200.

    So the consultation is at their office for their convenience. Once I find out what their main problems are which almost always come down to lack of a systematic marketing plan, I lay out everything I've ever learned over the past 15 years from gurus like Jay Abraham, Dan Kennedy, Barnum, Levinson, Godin et al. including strategies for positioning, list building, retention, referrals, advertising, automated IM, tracking and ROI, etc. and tailor strategies for their particular business. And then of course answer their questions.

    There is no charge up front....they don't pay until the consultation is over. And if they don't feel they've gotten at least 10x the value for their $200, they get their money back (ie they don't have to pay).


    I've used these strategies in my own retail business with very good results and obviously so have some of the most successful businesses in the world. So this establishes some credibility.
    I understand the concept. Dan Kennedy used to (I don't know if he still does this) offer an hour for a few hundred dollars (you can choose any amount) with the idea that they get their money back at the end if they aren't impressed. I would get paid up front ad offer a guarantee. You just hand them their uncashed check. Almost nobody will ask for a refund.

    I wouldn't throw all the marketing know how at them. I'd ask lots of questions, exposing areas they will see they need help with.

    Forget including the follow up call. You charge for any additional time. Some people will want you to work with them, and some won't. The ones that do, you charge. And I would make it an hour, not two.

    These people tend to be busy.
    And....you saaid
    "I've used these strategies in my own retail business with very good results and obviously" What?! You never said you had a store. You are your first client.Use your results.

    Do you know what impresses clients (mine anyway) far more that showing results for other clients? Showing that you used the exact same methods in your own business. After I show a slide of my search result for my local store, I say "Everything I do is tested and proven before I do it for a client. You only get what I know works."

    I was speaking to a group once, and showed my own store's results.
    One guy bought my services and said "I wasn't going to buy, but You practice what you preach, and that proved it to me"

    Go, my young Padiwan, and do likewise. :rolleyes:

    The one free service I did was at the insistance of a Guru in a different niche. Never again.
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
    Thanks Claude. Lots of great points.

    Man an hour goes by quick. I spent about an hour giving away a consultation yesterday on the phone hoping to sell an SEO package and it seemed like we just scratched the surface. The guy had a million questions and if I would have stayed on the phone for another hour we still surely wouldn't have covered everything. That's why I thought 2 hours would be the bare minimum to cover the basics. I guess in the initial meeting I could always just let the client know that I need to be paid for any time overage and if he/she wants to keep talking thats fine.

    btw, when I mentioned my lack of clients that was strictly for SEO services. I've got a little experience with consulting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Anthem40
      One hurdle to jump would be how many of these letters are getting to the decision maker. And of those letters that make it to the DM, how many take the time to read it all. In a systematic approach, I think this would be your biggest kink in the chain. I would be interested to hear some of your thoughts/results on this piece.

      I think with the $200 thing for now ought to work. If I were in your shoes I would want to avoid dropping the pay me later line until as late as possible. Just so that your services does not read like: "Product X is worth $1,000,000 but for the first 10 to buy we are only charging $1,000!"
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      • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
        Originally Posted by Anthem40 View Post

        One hurdle to jump would be how many of these letters are getting to the decision maker. And of those letters that make it to the DM, how many take the time to read it all. In a systematic approach, I think this would be your biggest kink in the chain. I would be interested to hear some of your thoughts/results on this piece.
        That's the reason I said call You will get GENUINE interest.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

      Thanks Claude. Lots of great points.

      Man an hour goes by quick. I spent about an hour giving away a consultation yesterday on the phone hoping to sell an SEO package and it seemed like we just scratched the surface. The guy had a million questions and if I would have stayed on the phone for another hour we still surely wouldn't have covered everything. That's why I thought 2 hours would be the bare minimum to cover the basics. I guess in the initial meeting I could always just let the client know that I need to be paid for any time overage and if he/she wants to keep talking thats fine.

      btw, when I mentioned my lack of clients that was strictly for SEO services. I've got a little experience with consulting.
      Paul; The reason you want to keep it to an hour is exactly the reason you just gave. You just scratched the surface, which is what you want. The hour is to gather information (to help you) and make them aware of the places they need help (to help them). If they want a second hour, you're right here to offer it...and they pay for it. You'll never find a better prospect than the one you just spent an hour with.

      An hour does go by quickly. But to the prospect, it sounds like it's a very long time. A two hour consulting time isn't easier to sell than one hour.

      This may help. I offer two formats when speaking to groups. A one hour speech, and a three hour training. The speech makes them aware of what they need. The 3 hours explains everything. At the end of the hour, I sell far more people into my service than at the end of three hours.

      Offering a refund if not satisfied is risk reversal. It's far easier for someone to simply not pay you than ask for a refund. And a person that writes the check, is the one decides.

      I would absolutely offer a refund if they thought they got no value. At the beginning of the hour, I would also say "At the end of our time, there are three options, all of them up to you. You can decide I wasted your time and ask for a refund. You can take the hour and we'll part friends, or at he end of the hour, you'll see that there is more work to do, and you can agree to buy more time. Agreed?"

      Easy Peezy. Good luck.
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      • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        An hour does go by quickly. But to the prospect, it sounds like it's a very long time. A two hour consulting time isn't easier to sell than one hour.

        This may help. I offer two formats when speaking to groups. A one hour speech, and a three hour training. The speech makes them aware of what they need. The 3 hours explains everything. At the end of the hour, I sell far more people into my service than at the end of three hours.

        Offering a refund if not satisfied is risk reversal. It's far easier for someone to simply not pay you than ask for a refund. And a person that writes the check, is the one decides.

        I would absolutely offer a refund if they thought they got no value. At the beginning of the hour, I would also say "At the end of our time, there are three options, all of them up to you. You can decide I wasted your time and ask for a refund. You can take the hour and we'll part friends, or at he end of the hour, you'll see that there is more work to do, and you can agree to buy more time. Agreed?"
        Claude, I think you're a freaking genius. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your insights and I think we would all be wise to pay attention to what you have to say.

        The cool thing is, since this is really low risk, I can take my time and do lots of testing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    I agree with Kung Fu.

    OP - I think you are confusing risk reversal with a refund policy?

    MANY businesses get paid before they provide services...many get paid after. Both ways are acceptable, and a matter of what you prefer, and what your clients will agree to.

    If you provide a service, you need to be paid for it, if they didn't see a value, they won't come back...it's simple.
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
      Originally Posted by Mwind076 View Post

      OP - I think you are confusing risk reversal with a refund policy?
      I'm not sure where you got that idea but I've been using risk reversal since I started in business and it hasn't always been a money back guarantee. Usually it was store credit when I was in retail. But the stronger the risk reversal, the better your conversions will be.

      Or do you have another idea how to do risk reversal when selling an info service to new prospects? I could offer credit towards other services but if I can't deliver on my first promise to a customer, that's pointless.

      If you provide a service, you need to be paid for it, if they didn't see a value, they won't come back...it's simple.
      Are you sure you're putting yourself in the prospect's shoes and seeing it from their perspective? "If they didn't see a value" then why should they pay?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    You won't get anything done on here disagreeing with anyone...go do it!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    I'm typing while calling, however, I have to go do carpool now How about this, you do what works for you, and we'll do what works for us
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I'd be careful not to dismiss the sales and marketing experience and training of a higher end business owner. They could have come from Xerox or IBM... I worked for a NAPA franchise and the owner had been a VP at a large auto parts chain prior to buying the franchise. Really look at their existing business and marketing and try to find out their background and which aspect of their marketing you can really improve.

    I say this because you assume the problem is they "lack a systematic marketing plan" and because you mentioned you don't have a lot of credentials/experience and it's very discouraging when prospects don't buy YOU. A new real estate agent or mortgage loan originator or financial planner is generally better off starting with someone who has never bought a house before (they are delighted to find out they can even buy a house), or in the latter case, is just starting to do their financial planning.

    Maybe instead do a two hour Q and A seminar where each attendee pays $75 to attend and if you impress them enough there, they go on to hire you. Perhaps through the Chamber of Commerce...

    Hope I make sense and help.

    Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      I'd be careful not to dismiss the sales and marketing experience and training of a higher end business owner. They could have come from Xerox or IBM... I worked for a NAPA franchise and the owner had been a VP at a large auto parts chain prior to buying the franchise. Really look at their existing business and marketing and try to find out their background and which aspect of their marketing you can really improve.

      I say this because you assume the problem is they "lack a systematic marketing plan" and because you mentioned you don't have a lot of credentials/experience and it's very discouraging when prospects don't buy YOU. A new real estate agent or mortgage loan originator or financial planner is generally better off starting with someone who has never bought a house before (they are delighted to find out they can even buy a house), or in the latter case, is just starting to do their financial planning.

      Hope I make sense and help.

      Dan
      Thanks, its a great point Dan, and something I definitely have considered. I do realize my limitations for sure. When I said higher end, I probably should have just said that I'm staying away from car mechanics, laundromats and businesses where there typically is little money for marketing. So when selecting niches to target, I try to think about the lifestyle of the typical business owner. Doctors drive BMW's and car mechanics drive old trucks.

      But I agree, you don't want to jump into the deep end until your ready to swim with the big fish. I realize business owners with the experience and knowledge you're referring to are not my market and probably won't be nearly as interested in a consultation any way because they are probably already up on cutting edge marketing strategies. But I'm not too worried about it because I know plenty of medium size fish who don't have a clue. They are my market.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

        But I agree, you don't want to jump into the deep end until your ready to swim with the big fish. I realize business owners with the experience and knowledge you're referring to are not my market and probably won't be nearly as interested in a consultation any way because they are probably already up on cutting edge marketing strategies. But I'm not too worried about it because I know plenty of medium size fish who don't have a clue. They are my market.
        My guys too. Auto repair shops, appliance stores, mattress stores, flooring...they're my kind of guys. Guys with businesses doing $500,000-$2,000,000 a year. Where the owner is there...working...and he can be called to the phone. My idea of heaven.

        Cosmetic dentists? Been there. Just not my crowd. I have a friend that sells $35,000 video documentaries (30 minutes, patient testimonials, some air time)
        to cosmetic dentists. I have nothing against them, but I just don't enjoy talking to them about business.

        You said "I agree but unfortunately in my market, 80% of the repair shops are mom and pop trying to pay their rent."

        Yup. And 95% of all vacuum cleaner stores are barely scrapping by. But I have 68 vacuum cleaner stores that each paid me $6,400 for the first year (And $199 a month after that). You sell the cream. I would kill for a market that has 20% making real money.

        Not sure how we got on auto repair, but it's an example of a good niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Actually, auto repair in a larger city may not be a bad market. You'll want the ones on the cutting edge when it comes to diagnostic equipment, and things like NAPA and or AAA certified. The ones who want to take business from dealerships because there is a misperception in the market that work done by a non-dealership will void the warranty, or they have a niche such as repairing Sprinter/Mercedes Benz work vans, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
    I agree but unfortunately in my market, 80% of the repair shops are mom and pop trying to pay their rent.
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