My experience with outsourcing, and some conclusions

23 replies
During the past three years, I have employed 8 full time web designers and developers from the Philippines.

On the positive side, it has taken my business to a new level and enabled me to achieve a six-figure annual income. But there has also been a major downside, which has led me to change my outsourcing model from the beginning of this year.

The attraction of hiring Filippinos, is that they are cheap at around $700/month for a full time web developer. This looks great on paper. But the reality is that a typical Filippino home-based worker will do at best 3 -4 billable hours of work per day. On many days, they will do nothing. Their power or internet will go down, their child or a family member will get sick, they will fall asleep in the afternoon because of the heat... any multitude of reasons why they couldn't complete a full day's work.

I've read a lot of John Jonas's information regarding working with Filippinos and found it very useful. He is correct in that you have to make allowances for some major cultural differences between a third world country and a developed country.

These Filippino guys are normally working in the corner of their living room, with constant interruptions, no air conditioning in stifling heat etc. They also have a different work ethic to westerners. Family and leisure are very important to them. If someone drops around while they are supposed to be working, they'll stop and chat for a while.

I often do screen shares on skype with my guys, and during the course of a short conversation I will see chat messages popping up every few seconds from their friends. So I can only assume this chatting goes on every day while they are supposedly working.

Until now, I put up with this, due to the fact that even if I get 15 billable hours per week from a Filippino worker, I'm still making a good profit. But as my business has grown, and demands have increased to get projects completed by deadlines, I have found the Filippinos just too unreliable.

They will disappear for a day or two, then explain that they had a bad storm and the power was down. They will continually fail to report for work at the agreed time of 9am Philippines time, with the only explanation being that they "slept late".

So, I have now terminated all but one of my Filippinos. And the alternative outsourcing solution I have found is just so vastly superior, I wonder why I didn't discover it earlier.

I am now outsourcing all my web projects to a company in Vietnam. This is a company of 5 guys, working from an office, who have a totally different work ethic and skill level than the Filippinos.

I have been blown away by both the speed of their work and the quality. I am paying them $10/hour, compared with $4/hour for Filippinos. But it's actually working out less expensive and less stressful.

For example, an ecommerce site that a Filippino home-based developer would take 3 weeks to complete, the Vietnamese guys have done in one week. And the quality is better. With the Filippinos I would always have to tweak a lot of small things to get it looking perfect. With the Vietnamese company, they hand me a finished site that is good enough to present to the client!

I share this for anyone who's at at point of looking to outsource, particularly web development or mobile web development. I'll leave you to draw you own conclusions from what I've shared.
#conclusions #experience #outsourcing
  • Profile picture of the author nathanjacobs
    It takes a lot of hiring and firing to find the right people to do the job in the philippines but it is possible. I have a web designer that is extraordinarily good at what she does, a video creator who consistently pumps out the videos I ask him to create, and a virtual assistant who tirelessly works for me - all for very little - and they are happy to do it.

    I had to fire 4 or 5 people and lost a little over 1k before I got this team but if you keep going and don't give up you will eventually find a good team.
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    • Profile picture of the author TurnKeyShane
      My workers in the philippines are awesome. It doesn't matter what country or what business if your hiring people to work for you it takes getting the right people on your team. Most of the people on my team are hard workers and adhere to high standards and deadlines that I require with proper supervision. Once I had enough experience hiring workers my retention rate is also much higher now as I can screen potential candidates better. I have Data Entry VA's for one of my businesses work on weekends and holidays for me and they never complain about it. I'm glad you found a good crew but I don't think its fair to over generalize about all Filippino workers.
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      • Profile picture of the author DavePalermo
        I have a small team doing all the grunt work but I don't outsource to 3rd world countries.

        I have high expectations and cannot tolerate incompetence or projects not getting done on time or crappy work etc....

        The lure of cheap labor is always lingering in the back of my head but at least my team gets it done and dammit I get what I pay for.
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  • Profile picture of the author boatree
    plainwords... Thank you for an insightful post.

    Can you describe your hiring process? Do you have a structured interview process when hiring your Filipino VA's?

    I'm relatively new to the IM world but have worked in I.T recruitment for a few years working within the software development vertical (web developers, designers and architects) and may be able to help you with your candidate screening / qualification process.

    Also are you able to share how you found this Vietnamese company and what are their level of is?

    Thanks,
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    • Profile picture of the author plainwords
      Originally Posted by boatree View Post


      Can you describe your hiring process? Do you have a structured interview process when hiring your Filipino VA's?
      Until recently, I have mainly used onlinejobs.ph. I have posted ads on there, describing what I need, and also responded directly to job seekers who have listed their CV's. I want to stress, I am not hiring VA's, I'm hiring web developers, which is a more specialized field.

      I normally give them a trial project and see how they go. If they do a good job, I offer them a trial full-time job for a month. There are some strict requirements, such as being available to work 9am - 5.30pm Philippines time, reporting on skype daily at 9am and sending a daily report on work done, at the end of the day.


      Originally Posted by boatree View Post


      Also are you able to share how you found this Vietnamese company and what are their level of is?
      I found them after posting a project on freelancer.com and they looked like the best bid. It turned out I stumbled onto a gem. They are highly skilled in web development, have a great attitude and will go the extra mile to get things perfect.
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  • Profile picture of the author moneyman2010
    I have some outsources in the Philippines for the most part they do a great job..But i have had to let a few of them go.I haven't looked into hiring in other countries but will give it some thought..
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  • Profile picture of the author SashaLee
    Originally Posted by plainwords View Post

    But there has also been a major downside, which has led me to change my outsourcing model from the beginning of this year.
    Hi there,

    We kissed many Phillipine and Indian frogs before finally settling on Latvian developers.

    We found the time-frame difference coupled with the work-ethic holes left us dangling with client demands too many times. We even visited our developers in Manila to see if we could improve the process only to find what View Profile: plainwords described above.

    There's some great talent there but it's very difficult to corral.

    Outsourcing is a tough business. You can have a fantastic consultant go AWOL on you at a critical moment because they suffer from epileptic seizures. It's happened to us. Not being able to walk across the hall, or drive across town, or take a couple-hour flight to knock on their door makes for nail-biting moments.

    But when you do find gold, and you will, make them your friend. Not just your outsource guy/gal. Find out about them, find out their likes/dislikes. When you become more than just a pay-source for them, they will feel more obligated to let you know their plans so you can make some contingencies.

    Thanks to the OP for laying out some well-needed truths about this arena.
    Best
    Sasha
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    • Profile picture of the author TurnKeyShane
      The biggest cultural issue I've seen specific to the phillipines is their dedication to their families. Many of them will completely leave projects to help out a family member with a business or other issue that would not seem as important here. They also do have black outs fairly often and issues such as typhoons but each country and culture is going to have its own issues and problems. For the most part I've been happy with the way my team is structured and the people on it.

      I have my workers structured in this manner. I have one lead developer who has been with me from the start and that I can count on. He's my gold. Any new hires are interviewed by him to assess their skill levels and their attitude. If they qualify then they are then put under him to work. We have base theme WP we created that everyone works from and the code is as standardized as possible on our projects between our developers. If one developer flakes my lead developer knows where the project is, whats going on, and what needs to be done to finish it. This minimizes the damage done when someone leaves for whatever reason which happens in any business anywhere. The bottom line like Sasha said is when you find a gold person treat them well and hold on to them.
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    • Profile picture of the author michaeljohndok
      Why not try outsourcing to China . It is the biggest outsourcing country ...
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      • Profile picture of the author kandabrewer
        I have not seen any Chinese bidding on any projects at Elance, which has involved web design, sys admin, graphic design, and editing. I tend to use Elance because I am wary about entering into contracts without third-party governance with people from countries with weak intellectual property laws, at least until I know them better. We found a very good Vietnamese graphic designer and, after working with her for over a year now, we will definitely work with her after the mandatory two-year Elance period. The sys admin experience was so bad that, despite going US, I just bit the bullet and resigned myself to doing it, moving to the third host in under two years :-( The second web designer company outright misrepresented themselves as US and were really Indian. This was exactly what we didn't want, since the first disastrous web designer was from India and went AWOL for several months in the middle of the prject. He was also far from the cheapest of the bids, so go figure. Anyways, the fake US designers were merely ok, but not exactly into outstanding customer service and not the greatest graphic sense. We then found a $50 US guy who gave us wonderful work and peace of mind to fix things, but the expense was bottlenecking everything. In the end, we just ended up learning Wordpress ourselves! The Eastern Europeans seem to do good work, although it was only in graphics deisgn and our sample is tiny.
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  • Profile picture of the author Easton King
    You're right that hiring in Asia comes with its own problems.

    My businesses rely heavily on having designers and coders available full time, even at odd hours of the day. I don't hire from Asia because there is a large cultural and language barrier as well as expectation barrier that can't be bridged when you need to meet very tight and precise deadlines with quality.

    I suggest hiring in Eastern Europe where pay rates are approx half of what they are in the US but education, cultural and and geographic similarities are high. I've gone so far as financing the education of a few close friends (in programming and design) because I would have a reliable and trustworthy people to work with by doing so. (You need a contract here) That has actually given me the best results as I currently have 3 fulltime coders from Eastern Europe who were personally friends of mine and who'm I financed to learn coding so that they could quit their jobs and jump online fulltime thereafter.

    For important projects I DO recommend JV's with a strong coder where their pay and return is tied to their performance on the job. I do have a non performance clause in agreements that allows me to terminate subpar coders without capital loss. I am fairly strict with people that work with me but fair and if you need things done on tight deadlines you need to be to.

    I do suggest investing in your designers and coders depending on the business model. Some of my businesses sell software solutions that rely heavily on having a strong team of coders to develop, update and maintain the product. Paying them $700 a month isn't too motivating so I do set up incentives such as revenue share and capital I invest in their education -I will directly pay for books and e courses in skillsets they want and need to acquire (that benefits my own business as well) which also helps them increase their intrinsic value at no cost to them. This isn't feasible for low margin, small businesses but is VERY advantageous when running medium to larger operations. Coders and designers are in my experience the MOST difficult people to replace bar none -finding people with the combination of technical skill to put projects in to motion and conceptual skills to make them successful from a conversion and branding point of view is hard and frankly training strong candidates is IMO often a cheaper alternative.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross Dalangin
    Originally Posted by plainwords View Post

    Until now, I put up with this, due to the fact that even if I get 15 billable hours per week from a Filippino worker, I'm still making a good profit. But as my business has grown, and demands have increased to get projects completed by deadlines, I have found the Filippinos just too unreliable.

    They will disappear for a day or two, then explain that they had a bad storm and the power was down. They will continually fail to report for work at the agreed time of 9am Philippines time, with the only explanation being that they "slept late".

    So, I have now terminated all but one of my Filippinos. And the alternative outsourcing solution I have found is just so vastly superior, I wonder why I didn't discover it earlier.

    I am now outsourcing all my web projects to a company in Vietnam. This is a company of 5 guys, working from an office, who have a totally different work ethic and skill level than the Filippinos.

    I have been blown away by both the speed of their work and the quality. I am paying them $10/hour, compared with $4/hour for Filippinos. But it's actually working out less expensive and less stressful.

    For example, an ecommerce site that a Filippino home-based developer would take 3 weeks to complete, the Vietnamese guys have done in one week. And the quality is better. With the Filippinos I would always have to tweak a lot of small things to get it looking perfect. With the Vietnamese company, they hand me a finished site that is good enough to present to the client!
    DON'T MAKE IT GENERALIZED!!!

    You've just employed some of the unexperienced guys that's why they just charge you $4/hr ONLY. It just happen you employed it from the Philippines.

    Think of it!
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  • Outsourcing is a lot like dating. You have to go through a lot of frogs to find the One and you can't discriminate against a certain type of person simply because you've been burned before. I understand you had some problems with Filipinos but these problems you encountered is true with every outsourcing country. In most of the outsourcing case studies that we saw at Replacemyself.com, we noticed that business owners who had the most success are the ones who had a great working relationship with their employees. Their staff aren't just workers to them. They consider their staff as friends and partners in helping their businesses grow. And because the employees feel like part of the company, they're actually personally invested in helping their employers succeed.
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    • Profile picture of the author plainwords
      Originally Posted by John Jonas Phil VA View Post

      In most of the outsourcing case studies that we saw at Replacemyself.com, we noticed that business owners who had the most success are the ones who had a great working relationship with their employees. Their staff aren't just workers to them. They consider their staff as friends and partners in helping their businesses grow. And because the employees feel like part of the company, they're actually personally invested in helping their employers succeed.
      I agree with this absolutely and I've treated all my Filippino workers well. I'm still friends on skype with some of the guys I've sacked and I've sent some of them money to help them out financially. But the fact remains that their work ethic and work output just doesn't stack up from a business viewpoint.

      The difference with the Vietnamese company is like chalk and cheese.

      I don't want to generalize about Filippinos, or write them off. I'd still love to find a real gem.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ross Dalangin
        Originally Posted by plainwords View Post

        I agree with this absolutely and I've treated all my Filippino workers well. I'm still friends on skype with some of the guys I've sacked and I've sent some of them money to help them out financially. But the fact remains that their work ethic and work output just doesn't stack up from a business viewpoint.

        The difference with the Vietnamese company is like chalk and cheese.

        I don't want to generalize about Filippinos, or write them off. I'd still love to find a real gem.
        If you're true that you're still their friends, I don't think they will like what you write here.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by Ross Dalangin View Post

          If you're true that you're still their friends, I don't think they will like what you write here.
          I dont know how good of friends they are if they are taking advantage of him and making him late on fulfillment when he is trying to provide them with opportunity.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ross Dalangin
            Hi John,

            We don't know what's their relationship are and how they really work
            because for what I can see is that they just charge him $4 per hour and
            I think it's because they're newbies. If you are really a professional and
            you're really good at what you're doing then are you really gonna charge
            only $4 an hour? I'm also a Filipino and what I want for him is not to generalize
            that all Filipinos are doing such. It's a matter of his selection. He selected
            newbies that could not bring good quality at the right time.

            Kindly read his post keenly.

            Regards,

            Ross

            Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

            I dont know how good of friends they are if they are taking advantage of him and making him late on fulfillment when he is trying to provide them with opportunity.
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  • Profile picture of the author myeanne
    There's always a pros and cons when hiring a staff specially if there are working to another country. It will take a lot of time to get the right staff and work with the right person or company. That's why I always suggest to hire an outsourcing firm or staff leasing company. The good thing about outsourcing model is that you will have unlimited access to our staff during working hours. You can impose deadlines to every project deliverable and require them to submit daily report.
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  • Profile picture of the author Outsourcingnerd
    I have been using several workers from the Philippines, and have been quite satisfied with 90% of them.

    One of the reasons is that I use Odesk, and when they are used to that platform and knows that screen dump is taken randomly, they know that sitting on Facebook or Skype instead of working is not going to do them any good.

    I have a VA trainee right now, a newbie that wants without a long track record, and I only pay her $1.25 an hour. Not much, but the deal is that I train her while I pay her, so she gets some books + Skype sessions with me.

    Yes, the power outbreaks happen, but she usually always catches up and manages to deliver 30 hours each week.

    One thing that is stressful for many freelancers is, that they need to look for new jobs all the time - and working on 4-5 different projects on the same time is not good.

    It is also about setting some goals and bonuses, and learn them that it pays off to deliver on time. Imagine the motivational factor if you pay a worker $700 a month, and add an extra $300 if he delivers the hours and works he is supposed to deliver.

    However, if you are using eight people full time, you should consider establishing an office there and hire an office manager. Not in Manila but in Cebu.
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  • Profile picture of the author kellyyarnsbro
    Wow, such a bad experience you had. We'll for me is opposite to what you have experienced with Filipinos, mine is awesome. I used to have 3 guys from Philippines who works as developer at $7/hour and delivers on timely manner, discipline was great as well as their work ethics and very respectful. Probably because i regularly check on them and even chat with them. Now i ahve 15 outsourced Filipino workers working at home and i'm happy and they never failed me specially on big projects.

    I have outsource guys from India, China, Mexico and even Vietnam before but non of these delivers better and areway-OFF compared to the Filipinos that i have now.

    This is for my great TEAM in the Philippines. Thanks you so much and Keep it up!
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  • Profile picture of the author mec64
    Very interesting conversation. I'm thinking of outsourcing some of the work that never gets done, and trying out a few things with outsourcers to generate some business. Can anyone chime in and let us know what expertise you've had the most luck with while outsourcing to the Philippines? I was looking into outsourcing some writing as well as video creation and lead generation.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by mec64 View Post

      I'm thinking of outsourcing some of the work that never gets done, and trying out a few things with outsourcers to generate some business.
      Hi Mec64,

      This wont be a popular answer, but if a person is bringing the web fulfillment skills to the table, but needs to outsource in order to bring in business... then they are still a tech and not a business person yet.

      You have to learn how to bring in business yourself, then systemize it into a mindless task, then outsource that mindless task.

      What Im sayin here is actually helpful not a diss in anyway.

      When it comes to generating sales...

      Once you systemize a way of bringing in business then you can outsource that task. No cheap outsourcer is going to invent an effective sales and marketing plan for you.

      They work cheaply because the best they can do in sales is to repeat a proven successful action, if you give that to them in the form of a mindless task they can repeat.

      If that's what you've done already; created a proven successful, mindless task that can be repeated by an average person, a prescribed number of times, in order to produce a consistently predictable result, then kudo's, ignore what I said above.

      John
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  • Profile picture of the author Saulric
    For those interested, below are links of the United States, Philippines, and Vietnam based on Hofstede's dimensions.

    You can compare any two countries to see how they are different culturally.

    Interesting to see U.S.A./Philippines, U.S.A/Vietnam, and Philippines/Vietnam. Similar in some aspects, drastically different in others. Could help provide some understanding when working internationally.

    United States - Geert Hofstede

    Philippines - Geert Hofstede

    Vietnam - Geert Hofstede



    To compare with a country side-by-side, simply select it in the drop down box where it says "Comparison Country"
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