Another Bob Ross Post Card Method Idea.

66 replies
EDIT: disregard the entire monetization method in favor of a CPA approach as alluded to by Avalonesa. NO NEED TO THROW FLAMES INASMUCH AS THE END GOAL OF THIS THREAD HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED. THE IDEA / METHOD HAS BEEN TWEAKED WITH HELP FROM AVALONESA. YOU SIMPLY CHARGE THE RESTAURANT FOR EACH CUSTOMER DELIVERED THEREBY MINIMIZING / ELIMINATING THE RISK.

I'm going to break this down into steps really quick...
  1. Take the top 36 rated (or so) restaurants in your area from Yelp and UrbanSpoon.
  2. Approach / call restaurants and ask them if you could stop by and talk to them about participating in (your local towns), restaurant customer appreciation week.
  3. Get the meeting. Display a gorgeous mockup postcard profiling specials for the week. Put the top 12 rated places on there. From my own personal experience, the $10 off any ticket worth $30 or more works best. I know cuz I got my ass kicked by a company here locally. My idea vs. theirs, and they defeated me quite handily.
  4. Tell them you're putting the cards in 50,000 or 100,000 local mailboxes.
  5. Tell them, there can only be 12 squares, and you have to identify 12 of the best restaurants to place on each square, + a feature restaurant to co-brand with on the front side. Build the relationship - make them qualify themselves to you. Make them win you over.
  6. When they've won you over, start talking about the financial arrangement. Push for the co-branding on the front side that you'll sell for .50 per flyer ($25,000 or $50,000 depending on volume). Clearly many will back out of that, so then you down sell to $10,000 per square. Re-establish the value of the opportunity.
  7. If / when encountering resistance say listen; "for an entire week, 12 restaurants are going to be raking in all the money. Do you want to be the guy sitting on the sidelines not raking it in, while your customers think you don't appreciate them?"
  8. If money is really an obstacle for a super motivated client - search Google (in advance) for a merchant finance company that charges low (affordable) rates. Restaurant deals are the easiest to get done period. Get them the money (to pay you) and earn a commission on the funding as well.
  9. Make sure you actually get 24 interested restaurants. But only ship for 12. Regretfully inform the other 12 that they didn't make the cut, but will be considered for the next round.
  10. Deliver high quality - beautiful giant post cards featuring these $10 off of $30 offers to 50,000 doors. Everyone eats, so clearly there will be some conversions.
  11. Take photos, and videos. Save them.
Next time around inform the other 12 that they're in. Show what a success the last / first one you ran was (videos and photos), if you pulled it off, and try to get them in for $20k per square. (Again, finance if you must) By you're second mailing you should be at $240k.



The keys to making this work are:
  1. Actually picking really good restaurants to work with. Don't let scummy joints in on this.
  2. DESIGN, DESIGN, DESIGN. Make your visuals stunning. Including your presentation visuals. If / when you get restaurants on board, hire independent photographers and designers to help you nail it. Spend the money!
  3. Targeting high value areas. Don't mail to broke people.
  4. Keep the offer consistent. The fewer choices people have, the easier it is for them to make a decision. $10 off $30 or more, and $15 off $60 or more should do the trick.
  5. YOU SHOULD HAVE A GORGEOUS WEB SITE. Google "examples of gorgeous web sites."
  6. Check out the history of restaurant week and they're business model. They crush it every year. Also, everyone eats, so it's much easier to convert a restaurant patron than it is to convert a dental patient.
The "front side" feature should cover your cost of printing, delivery, photos, and labor. The 12 squares at $10k a pop are pure profit. That's how you make $120k in two months or so.


I haven't tried this idea - granted. But I've taken the postcard method and thought of a few implementable ideas... More to come!

Edit: I am personally a huge fan of doing "full frontal" attacks on the enemy. Doing this bi-annually at the start of the restaurant season (Spring) and end, right dead smack on top of restaurant week, allows you to further sell the value of exclusivity. "Everyone is doing restaurant week. Only 12 can do customer appreciation week..." etc.


EMPHASIZE BEAUTY. MAKE THIS PRODUCTION GORGEOUS. STAY CLASSY! REMEMBER YOU'RE MARKETING "CUSTOMER APPRECIATION WEEK" A BROADLY PALATABLE AND CONSUMABLE CONCEPT / IDEA FOR BOTH RESTAURANT OWNERS AND CUSTOMERS!
#bob #card #idea #method #post #ross
  • Profile picture of the author RRG
    Let's say each restaurant gets a 1% redemption, or 500 out of 50,000 homes mailed.

    For a $10k investment, that's $20 per redemption.

    With your $10 off $30 or more, there's the twenty bucks right there. Of course, they have to cover their 30% food cost on the $30, which is another $9, so the net is $11 per redemption ($5500).

    The restaurant would need to make an extra $4500 plus food cost ($1350) = $5850 divided by 500 redemptions = about $12 per ticket . . . to break even on the $10k investment.

    So an average ticket of $42 would be break-even.

    Some people would spend exactly $30, others would bring the family and spend $100, including many high-profit beverages, including adult bevs.

    Of course, a response of .5% doubles these numbers.

    Interesting concept. Question is . . . is someone going to fork over $10k for a one-shot mailing . . . and share space with 11 competitors?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774324].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
      Originally Posted by RRG View Post

      Question is . . . is someone going to fork over $10k for a one-shot mailing . . . and share space with 11 competitors?
      Pssst... I'll give you a hint ... the answer is the opposite of yes.
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774469].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by RRG View Post

      Let's say each restaurant gets a 1% redemption, or 500 out of 50,000 homes mailed.

      For a $10k investment, that's $20 per redemption.

      With your $10 off $30 or more, there's the twenty bucks right there. Of course, they have to cover their 30% food cost on the $30, which is another $9, so the net is $11 per redemption ($5500).

      The restaurant would need to make an extra $4500 plus food cost ($1350) = $5850 divided by 500 redemptions = about $12 per ticket . . . to break even on the $10k investment.

      So an average ticket of $42 would be break-even.

      Some people would spend exactly $30, others would bring the family and spend $100, including many high-profit beverages, including adult bevs.

      Of course, a response of .5% doubles these numbers.

      Interesting concept. Question is . . . is someone going to fork over $10k for a one-shot mailing . . . and share space with 11 competitors?
      Great analysis!! Check out the National Restaurant Association Web site. The average restaurant ticket is $40. So the goal is to break even. You're breaking even to attract NEW long-term full price customers. This, incidentally is wayyy cheaper than a Groupon. As CEO of the down defunct Grubable and Grubraise, I'm pretty versed on restaurant math...

      Additonally, let's not discount the power of the viral co-efficient. Your site should be pretty social to juice out more customers!

      Good work on the math!
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774652].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        Great analysis!! ...

        Good work on the math!
        RRG's analysis is way off. mrjosco (above and) below was closer:

        Originally Posted by mrjosco View Post

        Keep in mind, however, that even if the postcard has responses at a 5% rate (which would be pretty incredible for a postcard mailing) that conversion is divided by 12. So really, the average conversion rate for each restaurant would still be only .41%. I just don't see the clients getting a very good ROI from that offer.
        The only problem is that he should have used 1% (instead of 5) and the rate per advertiser would have been 0.08%. Now crunch the numbers.
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774705].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
          Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

          RRG's analysis is way off. mrjosco (above and) below was closer:


          The only problem is that he should have used 1% (instead of 5) and the rate per advertiser would have been 0.08%. Now crunch the numbers.
          I think a lot of these numbers are pretty conservative. It's pretty easy to write something off as being a "bad idea." It's a lot harder to actually make it a good one. That's why you have creators, and consumers.

          1. Restaurant weeks are held around the country.
          2. Customer appreciation days are held at various restaurants around the country (P.M. me for a list of a few who you can call and ask about their average turnout). One five chain restaurant crushes it every year from word of mouth.
          3. Search the Google term(s) - different permutations of which; "restaurant week turnout." What happens during these restaurant weeks is that dozens of restaurants participate. Don't take my word for it, verify.
          This whole thing is impossible to pull off if you lack a taste for great aesthetics.



          CityDiningCards started in ONE city - kicked my butt and is expanding by SELLING A GIMMICK. THEY ARE A GROUP OF DESIGNERS.


          Please take these things into consideration as you ponder this.


          RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH.

          I PROMISE YOU, YOU WILL FIND ACTIONABLE INTELLIGENCE IF YOU'RE LUCKY.



          All you're doing is taking a tried and true concept, making it more aggressive (in marketing) and filtering down the participants to a small group.



          Signature
          FILL IN THE BLANKS!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774781].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
            Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

            I think a lot of these numbers are pretty conservative. It's pretty easy to write something off as being a "bad idea." It's a lot harder to actually make it a good one. That's why you have creators, and consumers.
            You missed my main point (in my first post (#3) above) and that is you're not going to get 12 biz owners paying you $50,000 or $25,000 or $10,000 each for a 3x4" ad. You can probably do it in your wettest of wet dreams, but not in the real world.
            Signature

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774851].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
              Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

              You missed my main point (in my first post (#3) above) and that is you're not going to get 12 biz owners paying you $50,000 or $25,000 or $10,000 each for a 3x4" ad. You can probably do it in your wettest of wet dreams, but not in the real world.
              The annals of history are littered with the carcasses of those who've endeavored to declare big goals as being impossible. The automobile was "impossible" because it required Multi state collaboration on the development of roads. Netflix was "impossible" because Blockbuster was huge. "Who wants to wait for a rental!" In 2007 the Democratic establishment did not get behind Obama until he won Iowa, because it was "impossible" for a black man to win the Presidency.

              In 2001 I was a kid in a door to door sales contest. The contest comprised of only 11 minorities of 400 or so. I was in 16th Place on shortly after 9/11 with 7 weeks to go. I decided Id beat the hot blondes at the top, and I did. Muhammad Ali was calling himself "The Greatest" Loooooong before the world was to bear witness. Ali says; "the positive repetition of affirmations lead to a belief, and once those beliefs become a deep conviction, things begin to happen."

              Your fears are a prison sir. It's your fears that prevent you from preparing / training to go into battle and prepare to sell restaurants on this, or try to implement any of your own ideas.

              I've been free from that prison since I prematurely guaranteed I'd win in 2001.
              Signature
              FILL IN THE BLANKS!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774961].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
    Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

    I'm going to break this down into steps really quick...

    Push for the co-branding on the front side that you'll sell for .50 per flyer ($25,000 or $50,000 depending on volume). Clearly many will back out of that, so then you down sell to $10,000 per square.
    Hey... whatever you're smokin' please pass it around. LOL

    Thanks for the Friday afternoon chuckles.

    Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

    I haven't tried this idea - granted.
    No sh*t ... who could of ever guessed? LOL
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774354].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
    This is a pretty good BIG MONEY idea.

    Yes you have to choose the right areas and right businesses.

    Dont get too caught up in trying to pitch break even, although its good to know the numbers. They are getting a lot more than just a coupon redemption. If you are marketing this right it is being promoted as an "event" there will be a nice social media buzz, possible additional media coverage and lots of goodwill.

    10k is nothing to spend in marketing to participate in something like this for the right businesses, its your job to find the right businesses.

    Even if you were afraid of the 100,000 mailing level for a 10k committment,
    the 50,000 mailing level for a 5k committment should still net you over 50k
    as long as you can sell the "title sponsorship" for around 15k(each card will cost roughly 28 cents to 35 cents to produce and mail)
    Signature
    Promise Big.
    Deliver Bigger.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774402].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mrjosco
    They could do an EDDM to 50,000 people with only their restaurant and no competition on the back for less than the cost of one square on the back. I don't see it working, but I guess you don't know until you try!

    Keep in mind, however, that even if the postcard has responses at a 5% rate (which would be pretty incredible for a postcard mailing) that conversion is divided by 12. So really, the average conversion rate for each restaurant would still be only .41%. I just don't see the clients getting a very good ROI from that offer.
    Signature

    Vintage and Retro Shirts from Vinretro

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774475].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
    I would agree that the initial numbers the Big One has put out are probably out of whack with reality BUT this is still a potential and realistic money maker for someone who is comfortable going for larger sales.

    In fact I will go as far as saying that someone who wanted to make a local brand out of Restaurant Customer Appreciation Week/Month concept could easily make six figures by just promoting 2 big mailers a year. Not to mention spinoffs and other marketing opps that would come as a result of this.

    The shared aspect actually make the card stronger than an individual mailer. Its all in the way its presented. Once again in the context of a large event promoted through multiple media channels where the mailer is only part of the attraction getting 5k per participant is NOT outrageous , in fact its a great value for the RIGHT restaurants.

    Also the roi subtle and josco are using do not reflect the fact that some cards will get multiple coupons used.
    Signature
    Promise Big.
    Deliver Bigger.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7774967].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by Eddie Spangler View Post

      I would agree that the initial numbers the Big One has put out are probably out of whack with reality BUT this is still a potential and realistic money maker for someone who is comfortable going for larger sales.

      In fact I will go as far as saying that someone who wanted to make a local brand out of Restaurant Customer Appreciation Week/Month concept could easily make six figures by just promoting 2 big mailers a year. Not to mention spinoffs and other marketing opps that would come as a result of this.

      The shared aspect actually make the card stronger than an individual mailer. Its all in the way its presented. Once again in the context of a large event promoted through multiple media channels where the mailer is only part of the attraction getting 5k per participant is NOT outrageous , in fact its a great value for the RIGHT restaurants.

      Also the roi subtle and josco are using do not reflect the fact that some cards will get multiple coupons used.
      Mr. Spangler,

      You hit every nail right on the head. My thing is, if you KNOW in your heart you can get $5k, you HAVE TO GIVE YOUR ALL to getting $10k. Otherwise, they will "g" you down to $2k, totally devaluing your time. Would love to connect... Some awesome things I'd love to share in terms of visuals. When I say "share" - I mean, my visuals are yours. Hit me up.
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775355].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
    When marketing to restaurants, you have to learn your clients' market reach. For restaurants
    that regularly use coupons, the target area will be smaller than 100k households. It's usually
    really local and covers not more than 15-20k households, sometimes up to 30k.

    There are some known and popular restaurants that have patrons from outside of local area, but
    those restaurants usually don't market through coupons... They don't need to give discounts to
    fill their place.

    I am not critiquing the original post, just pointing out what I've learned from people in the restaurant biz.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775452].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author laird
    This isn't going to happen. It's a fine and dandy vision, one you admit is purely theoretical, but it's not going to fly at the price point you imagine.

    Out here on the left coast, we're familiar with Restaurant Weeks (hell I frequent a number of them as I'm a foodie) and most are sponsored by 1) Chambers of Commerce 2) Downtown/Main Street Restaurant Groups 3) The City 4) Local City/County Magazine/Publication.

    Websites, literature, email list, sms broadcasts, press releases, etc would be the way to go if you can act as mediator/liason for the Restaurant Week earning income that way, but the postcard thing you mention, nah, not going to fly.

    On another note, CDC works because of the $500+ in savings across 52 offers + 2 completely free ones. The advertising is paid for by buyers of the decks which are sold in retail stores and restaurants. Retailers get the decks for $10 and sell for $20 each. It's a great concept, one I'm trying to calculate for use out here, but you have to have sizable distribution and unit sales to handle upfront costs. I don't believe the restaurants pay a participation fee (though I could be wrong). I've been researching them for awhile and already have my vendor and production costs broken down.

    Del
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775460].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by laird View Post

      This isn't going to happen. It's a fine and dandy vision, one you admit is purely theoretical, but it's not going to fly at the price point you imagine.

      Out here on the left coast, we're familiar with Restaurant Weeks (hell I frequent a number of them as I'm a foodie) and most are sponsored by 1) Chambers of Commerce 2) Downtown/Main Street Restaurant Groups 3) The City 4) Local City/County Magazine/Publication.

      Websites, literature, email list, sms broadcasts, press releases, etc would be the way to go if you can act as mediator/liason for the Restaurant Week earning income that way, but the postcard thing you mention, nah, not going to fly.

      On another note, CDC works because of the $500+ in savings across 52 offers + 2 completely free ones. The advertising is paid for by buyers of the decks which are sold in retail stores and restaurants. Retailers get the decks for $10 and sell for $20 each. It's a great concept, one I'm trying to calculate for use out here, but you have to have sizable distribution and unit sales to handle upfront costs. I don't believe the restaurants pay a participation fee (though I could be wrong). I've been researching them for awhile and already have my vendor and production costs broken down.

      Del
      Apple didn't invent the MP3 player, iPhone, or even tablet PC. They repackaged it. That's why the emphasis is on the aesthetic. Check out my work....

      Guys know the results they get from these initiatives, when I go in, I'm just using stunning visuals to re-affirm the success they have already have had...

      In other words, I'm following the leader. In this case; Bob Ross ($20k one sale)... Bob Ross is Steve Jobs... at scale.

      You... You're bitter and old. You're nobody. Move aside, sit on the sidelines and sit - watching; in amazement.
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775500].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author laird
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        Apple didn't invent the MP3 player, iPhone, or even tablet PC. They repackaged it. That's why the emphasis is on the aesthetic. Check out my work....

        Guys know the results they get from these initiatives, when I go in, I'm just using stunning visuals to re-affirm the success they have already have had...

        In other words, I'm following the leader. In this case; Bob Ross ($20k one sale)... Bob Ross is Steve Jobs... at scale.

        You... You're bitter and old. You're nobody. Move aside, sit on the sidelines and sit - watching; in amazement.
        Lol. For every company like Apple, there formerly-existed thousands of idealistic young dreamers and their businesses sure they had a better way.

        Good luck in your endeavor.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775546].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        Apple didn't invent the MP3 player, iPhone, or even tablet PC. They repackaged it. That's why the emphasis is on the aesthetic. Check out my work....

        Guys know the results they get from these initiatives, when I go in, I'm just using stunning visuals to re-affirm the success they have already have had...

        In other words, I'm following the leader. In this case; Bob Ross ($20k one sale)... Bob Ross is Steve Jobs... at scale.

        You... You're bitter and old. You're nobody. Move aside, sit on the sidelines and sit - watching; in amazement.
        Okay, let's say Apple did some re-packaging.
        What are you re-packaging?

        Oh, and that last part was disrespectful.. he was giving his opinion. No need
        insults. Grow up and show some respect.
        Signature
        Life Begins At The End Of Your Comfort Zone
        - Neale Donald Wilson -
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775602].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
    Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

    I've been free from that prison since I prematurely guaranteed I'd win in 2001.
    You're going to lose this one. You will NOT get 12 restaurants to pay you $50k or $25k or $10K for a 3x4" ad. Again, please pass around whatever you're smokin' 'cause you're not living in the real world.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775481].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

      You're going to lose this one. You will NOT get 12 restaurants to pay you $50k or $25k or $10K for a 3x4" ad. Again, please pass around whatever you're smokin' 'cause you're not living in the real world.
      The average age of disruptive innovation is mid to late 20's.
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775486].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author xlfutur1
    Jake (Bob Ross) needs to weigh in on this one and shed some light on reality. Like Communism, lots of things sound great in theory.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775786].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by laird View Post

      Lol. For every company like Apple, there formerly-existed thousands of idealistic young dreamers and their businesses sure they had a better way.

      Good luck in your endeavor.
      Originally Posted by vndnbrgj View Post

      Okay, let's say Apple did some re-packaging.
      What are you re-packaging?

      Oh, and that last part was disrespectful.. he was giving his opinion. No need
      insults. Grow up and show some respect.
      Originally Posted by ravemarketing View Post

      I appreciate your enthusiasm TheBeeGee, but Laird is exactly right.

      How about this? ... Go out and sell one spot for $10k and give us an update.
      Originally Posted by xlfutur1 View Post

      Jake (Bob Ross) needs to weigh in on this one and shed some light on reality. Like Communism, lots of things sound great in theory.

      You guys see a pattern here? No one has said; "hey, this can only work at $2k a square, rather it - "it wont work." What does that tell you?

      I'm not afraid to post my ideas up for discussion amongst those who have never created any real value in their lives. I can enumerate my endeavors, both success and failures...

      Stop hiding behind the cloak of self righteousness and invent your own stuff... You can create too, if you believe, like Jake, that you are a creator, and not a consumer.

      Naturally, man looks to a leader. And so, you guys look to a damned good one, Mr. Ross. But fear not, fore all Mr. Ross did was CONNECT THE DOTS, with courage... YOU TOO CAN BE MR. ROSS.

      I don't post for you guys' approval. I post to inspire. AMERICA NEEDS MORE OF "how can we make this work" and less of "Oh, I'm wayy beyond my prime, so let me preach, because I feel threatened."

      Keep in mind that Mr. Ross has kids too... That didn't stop him. He took a dead simple idea an elevated it. Imagine if he sat here hating... IMAGINE THAT? INSTEAD OF TAKING ACTION?

      That's what winner do...



      THEY TAKE ACTION AND GET $20K A JOINT.
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7775907].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author laird
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        You guys see a pattern here? No one has said; "hey, this can only work at $2k a square, rather it - "it wont work." What does that tell you? ...
        Actually, I never said it won't work. I said it won't work at that price.

        Here's my first response to your theoretical idea with the appropriate section bolded:

        Originally Posted by laird View Post

        This isn't going to happen. It's a fine and dandy vision, one you admit is purely theoretical, but it's not going to fly at the price point you imagine.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7776850].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author aduttonater
          If you are sure that you can create a return of investment for these restaurants then, yea it's a great idea. Imagine getting every 12 squares to profit, then they want to do it again the following month. Residuals my friend, residuals.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7776969].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RRG
      Originally Posted by xlfutur1 View Post

      Jake (Bob Ross) needs to weigh in on this one and shed some light on reality. Like Communism, lots of things sound great in theory.
      Communism does not sound great, even in theory.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7797944].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Rearden
    Just do it already and prove us wrong.

    ...I'm waiting.
    Signature
    Final Expense Agent Mentor -- Providing On-Going, Personalized Mentorship And Training From A Real Final Expense Producer To Agents New To The Final Expense Life Insurance Business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7776930].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Biz Max
      From a sales standpoint, this is a tough sell. It is hard for most to sell a spot on a '9x12' for a few hundred bucks.

      One thing I see a lot of in this forum is 'ideas', not as much successful campaigns. Before typing out a loose theory instead put it to work and find out if it is solid.

      I know this, nobody is writing a $10,000 check for this as is.
      Signature
      Small Business Marketing & Branding Specialist
      http://BrandWhisperer.net
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7776983].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
        Originally Posted by OfflineGold View Post

        From a sales standpoint, this is a tough sell. It is hard for most to sell a spot on a '9x12' for a few hundred bucks.

        One thing I see a lot of in this forum is 'ideas', not as much successful campaigns. Before typing out a loose theory instead put it to work and find out if it is solid.

        I know this, nobody is writing a $10,000 check for this as is.
        Pitch Anthing - Oren Klafff; must read. When you learn how humans make decisions - it's incredibly powerful. Did you see Ross' post? He sold the vision "imagine this in everyone's hand." A lot can be learned from Steve Jobs - deliver the message simply. "It's like a permanent commercial in everyone's house" in the case of a Solo Ad.

        Watch your local news. Note advertisers and call them up.
        Signature
        FILL IN THE BLANKS!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7777333].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Biz Max
          Okay, now show me
          Signature
          Small Business Marketing & Branding Specialist
          http://BrandWhisperer.net
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7777337].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
            Originally Posted by OfflineGold View Post

            Okay, now show me
            Sure. Come up with an original idea / thought and we can call it an equal exchange. Until then, please note there is no profit in pessimism.
            Signature
            FILL IN THE BLANKS!
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7777699].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Marty S
              Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

              Sure. Come up with an original idea / thought and we can call it an equal exchange. Until then, please note there is no profit in pessimism.
              I don't think anybody is knocking creativity here, and I would also say that 95% of Warriors are open minded, positive and thoughtful when it comes to new ideas.

              You are getting very defensive here in the face of legit concerns, even though you know the concept is entirely unproven. It is you who should be open minded to feedback in this regard since there is a lot of experience and practical, real world off-liners in this forum and these responses as well.

              You certainly came up with a good "concept". I would be interested in ideas about how to make it more realistic.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7777947].message }}
  • {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7778036].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author lucafo
    50.000 $ ?!?!? :confused:

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7778424].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bob ross
    I like big bee, I bet this guy would outsell most of us
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7778437].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dave147
    This is a good idea! and a great idea for those that already have some relationship with restaurant owners.

    The $25,000 to $50,000 per slot might be a bit much, (test it) but if you can get and have been getting $600 for a 10,000 mailing then surely you can get a minimum of $3,000 per slot
    for a 50,000 mailing?
    and the Customer Appreciation twist should make it easier where there's a bit of prestige involved
    Signature

    How to Create Your Own Wealth and Success
    $500.00 in FREE Advertising For You Here

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7778851].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author XponentSYS
    I'm not going to bother debating numbers because what's the point. One person's numbers should not become EVERYONE'S numbers anyway. When developing a campaign for yourself or a client, it's important to do your OWN analysis of the local market in which you wish to advertise. I'll leave it at that.

    One point I'll make is the IMPORTANCE of training the restaraunt owner on HOW TO HANDLE these new customers to achieve the highest ROI possible. That would be achieved by encouraging the "new customers" to become "repeat customers".

    That would be accomplished by capturing their info with a mobile reward program, email or other type of campaign.

    This is where many Groupon users fall short.
    Signature
    "Hybrid Method" Gets 120,846 TARGETED VISITORS
    To Any Site in ANY NICHE!

    NOW FREE IN THE WAR ROOM! CLICK HERE!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7779032].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by XponentSYS View Post


      One point I'll make is the IMPORTANCE of training the restaraunt owner on HOW TO HANDLE these new customers to achieve the highest ROI possible. That would be achieved by encouraging the "new customers" to become "repeat customers".

      This is where many Groupon users fall short.
      Precisely. I wrote about that exact subject here. Simple workflow "go online to redeem your coupon (Aweber)..." The restaurant is now buying marketing + list. That's how I would justify my price.

      Thanks for the positive contribution to this discussion!
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7779041].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Avalonesa
    Why not sell this to restaurant owners on a Cost Per Action model, rather than a direct risk of $12k

    All you need to do is have the people redeem a coupon, the restaurant owners tally it up and then split all their profit evenly with you on the customers you generate for them. This is a much easier sell to any restaurant owner, and I am constantly wondering why people don't like to go the CPA route.

    CPA route gets you in the door. Its all about building relationships. Any owner would jump at the opportunity if there is no money down. Heck, just charge them a small amount to cover your printing costs only, and the rest on CPA.

    Oh, and NEVER tell them how you are marketing. Just tell them the bare minimum, otherwise they can just cut out the middleman and do the EDDM themselves, and you definitely don't want that.
    Signature

    Read the rules -- no affiliate links allowed in posts or sigs.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7958313].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by Avalonesa View Post

      Why not sell this to restaurant owners on a Cost Per Action model, rather than a direct risk of $12k

      All you need to do is have the people redeem a coupon, the restaurant owners tally it up and then split all their profit evenly with you on the customers you generate for them. This is a much easier sell to any restaurant owner, and I am constantly wondering why people don't like to go the CPA route.

      CPA route gets you in the door. Its all about building relationships. Any owner would jump at the opportunity if there is no money down. Heck, just charge them a small amount to cover your printing costs only, and the rest on CPA.

      Oh, and NEVER tell them how you are marketing. Just tell them the bare minimum, otherwise they can just cut out the middleman and do the EDDM themselves, and you definitely don't want that.
      This is an absolutely brilliant approach! This could work well if there is a reliable mechanism to track conversions. You don't want people coming in with coupons that ultimately make it to the trash.

      This could be exceptionally valuable if narrowly targeted to have redemptions only become available during the slowest days of the week.,
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7958869].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Avalonesa
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        This is an absolutely brilliant approach! This could work well if there is a reliable mechanism to track conversions. You don't want people coming in with coupons that ultimately make it to the trash.

        This could be exceptionally valuable if narrowly targeted to have redemptions only become available during the slowest days of the week.
        Yes, you will easily be able to sell any restaurant owner with this approach. You would have to be able to trust them that they will collect all the coupons though. That is the only downside. So establishing a trusting relationship with the owners is crucial.

        Why try to sell them, when you can work with them and probably make even more profit.
        Signature

        Read the rules -- no affiliate links allowed in posts or sigs.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7960665].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
          Originally Posted by Avalonesa View Post

          Yes, you will easily be able to sell any restaurant owner with this approach. You would have to be able to trust them that they will collect all the coupons though. That is the only downside. So establishing a trusting relationship with the owners is crucial.

          Why try to sell them, when you can work with them and probably make even more profit.
          No, no coupons. text xxx-xxx-xxxx your total to unlock "your special surpise free gift" while you are in store. Show confirmation to waiter / counter to claim gift. People respond better to "free stuff" than they do to x% off.

          Everything is tracked - no trust needed. :-)
          Signature
          FILL IN THE BLANKS!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7960708].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author cruisinman
            How is this trackable?

            So your marketing gets the customer in the door - then the customer shows the confirmation to the cashier / waiter - in this scenario - how is the cost per action recorded / tracked so you get paid for the CPA?

            Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

            No, no coupons. text xxx-xxx-xxxx your total to unlock "your special surpise free gift" while you are in store. Show confirmation to waiter / counter to claim gift. People respond better to "free stuff" than they do to x% off.

            Everything is tracked - no trust needed. :-)
            Signature

            Life - enjoy it . . .

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7969431].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author glooft
    I've got an idea. Don't sell it for $10,000 per square! Let's make some real money by simply adding a zero! Sell it for $100,000 per square! Wow! Now I'm really disrupting the marketplace.!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7958908].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Marty S
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7959794].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by glooft View Post

      I've got an idea. Don't sell it for $10,000 per square! Let's make some real money by simply adding a zero! Sell it for $100,000 per square! Wow! Now I'm really disrupting the marketplace.!
      Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

      I owned a restaurant. I now sell to restaurant owners. You'll never close a sale with this kind of line. It's classic desperation of a salesman with an inferior offer, and most business owners have heard this many times before. If you really do have a good offer - then the prospect will already be thinking about this scenario, and has already advanced to price negotiation with you.
      So I guess we can agree that Avolonesa's CPA approach works best right? I whipped up a user flow around controlling / tracking redemptions because I was so darn inspired!

      That's the beauty of contributing in a positive way to discussions. Smart people come together, tweak, refine, and create magic!
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7960066].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author abbot
        Banned
        I think you're dreaming buddy. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if you think people will fork over that kind of money for what you're offering, you're definitely in la la land.

        Oh and by the way; in the time you spent on this thread talking about the idea, my company has sold exactly 64 new websites, and signed 15 new SEO contracts.

        Perhaps YOU should stop "sitting on the sidelines"
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7960205].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
          Originally Posted by abbot View Post

          I think you're dreaming buddy. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if you think people will fork over that kind of money for what you're offering, you're definitely in la la land.

          Oh and by the way; in the time you spent on this thread talking about the idea, my company has sold exactly 64 new websites, and signed 15 new SEO contracts.

          Perhaps YOU should stop "sitting on the sidelines"
          Hi Abott,

          I think bragging about accomplishments publicly is tasteless. It's less than classy. So rather than to brag here publicly, and to engage in a public "you know what" measuring contest, I've PM'ed you my RESUME, references to my work, and my contact information.




          Best,
          TBITW
          Signature
          FILL IN THE BLANKS!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7960375].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rushindo
    @TheBigBee - two questions for you:

    1) Are you going to try this?

    2) When?

    Brandon
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7960755].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by rushindo View Post

      @TheBigBee - two questions for you:

      1) Are you going to try this?

      2) When?

      Brandon
      1) haven't had that "sink or swim" moment yet. Thankfully.
      2) when I have that sink or swim scenario
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7961569].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
        Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

        1) haven't had that "sink or swim" moment yet. Thankfully.
        2) when I have that sink or swim scenario
        If you believe you are sitting on a big money idea, get on it!

        $50,000 per square is waiting for you. Go out next week and sell them. Report back here with your results.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7967959].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author WeavingThoughts
    No kidding man, did you really try this out?

    More than once???
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7961581].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
      Originally Posted by WeavingThoughts View Post

      No kidding man, did you really try this out?

      More than once???
      No I have not. But I think you should take this general concept, use Avolonesas' suggestion, tweak it, and make it your own.
      Signature
      FILL IN THE BLANKS!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7961733].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author aduttonater
    I am going to try this, but it's going to be with a flier. I don't feel it's necessary to go the full mile and a half with gloss print and what not. As long as the fliers bring more people into the restaurants that's all that matters.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7965965].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
      Originally Posted by aduttonater View Post

      I am going to try this, but it's going to be with a flier. I don't feel it's necessary to go the full mile and a half with gloss print and what not. As long as the fliers bring more people into the restaurants that's all that matters.
      Not for 50,000 or 25,000.

      The biggest problem I see here is that a lot of ideas are good, but from the wrong people. I'm not saying this condescendingly, the fact is that noone here is CEO of a large company with big resources, branding etc.

      I'm sure this guy's idea would work really well for big New York restaurants, for example. But the average Joes on this forum don't have the backing to pull it off. Once again, I repeat, I'm not saying it in a condescending way.

      You just don't suddenly become a large scale advertiser with zero experience, go out to fancy NY restaurants and convince them to pay you 50,000.. and then actually deliver.

      The people that can do it are out there.. just not on this forum, me included. People here are very smart but don't have that kind of resources, credentials, staff, credibility etc
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7966075].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
        Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

        Not for 50,000 or 25,000.

        The biggest problem I see here is that a lot of ideas are good, but from the wrong people. I'm not saying this condescendingly, the fact is that noone here is CEO of a large company with big resources, branding etc.

        I'm sure this guy's idea would work really well for big New York restaurants, for example. But the average Joes on this forum don't have the backing to pull it off. Once again, I repeat, I'm not saying it in a condescending way.

        You just don't suddenly become a large scale advertiser with zero experience, go out to fancy NY restaurants and convince them to pay you 50,000.. and then actually deliver.

        The people that can do it are out there.. just not on this forum, me included. People here are very smart but don't have that kind of resources, credentials, staff, credibility etc
        ONCE AGAIN, Avalonesa's CPA method works well. Restaurants only pay per each delivered customer.
        Signature
        FILL IN THE BLANKS!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7966080].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author rushindo
        Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

        Not for 50,000 or 25,000.

        The biggest problem I see here is that a lot of ideas are good, but from the wrong people. I'm not saying this condescendingly, the fact is that noone here is CEO of a large company with big resources, branding etc.

        I'm sure this guy's idea would work really well for big New York restaurants, for example. But the average Joes on this forum don't have the backing to pull it off. Once again, I repeat, I'm not saying it in a condescending way.

        You just don't suddenly become a large scale advertiser with zero experience, go out to fancy NY restaurants and convince them to pay you 50,000.. and then actually deliver.

        The people that can do it are out there.. just not on this forum, me included. People here are very smart but don't have that kind of resources, credentials, staff, credibility etc
        Robert, if I were you, I would reconsider your thoughts about the people that visit this forum. There are all types of people on the forum from all walks of life.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7968079].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
          Originally Posted by rushindo View Post

          Robert, if I were you, I would reconsider your thoughts about the people that visit this forum. There are all types of people on the forum from all walks of life.
          In the fairy tale land of WF, you wake up one day with a great idea, walk up to a multimillion dollar business and they are more than willing to open their checkbook.. no experience needed, no staff needed, no branding needed, no past accomplishments needed, no data needed, no customer service needed.

          Take action! You'll learn on the fly!!!!1one

          That reminds me of all the people who wake up one day and they figure "hey, I'm an SEO expert now" or "I'm a web designer now".. I have zero technical skills but I can build a website with Godaddy website builder!!!

          I don't believe that serves humanity. That is my personal opinion.

          There is a lot of solid information here, otherwise I wouldn't be visiting WF for several years.

          To put things in perspective.. who are the biggest names in internet marketing, some of which have been on WF in the past? These guys that you see everywhere on the internet pull in at most a few millions per year according to them. That is wonderful, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what national ad agencies are pulling in.

          Are they better? Smarter? I didn't say that. I said they have more established credibility and resources than the average Joe on this forum. You can feel offended or take it for what it is.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7969172].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author rushindo
            Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

            In the fairy tale land of WF, you wake up one day with a great idea, walk up to a multimillion dollar business and they are more than willing to open their checkbook.. no experience needed, no staff needed, no branding needed, no past accomplishments needed, no data needed, no customer service needed.

            Take action! You'll learn on the fly!!!!1one

            That reminds me of all the people who wake up one day and they figure "hey, I'm an SEO expert now" or "I'm a web designer now".. I have zero technical skills but I can build a website with Godaddy website builder!!!

            I don't believe that serves humanity. That is my personal opinion.

            There is a lot of solid information here, otherwise I wouldn't be visiting WF for several years.

            To put things in perspective.. who are the biggest names in internet marketing, some of which have been on WF in the past? These guys that you see everywhere on the internet pull in at most a few millions per year according to them. That is wonderful, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what national ad agencies are pulling in.

            Are they better? Smarter? I didn't say that. I said they have more established credibility and resources than the average Joe on this forum. You can feel offended or take it for what it is.
            I don't feel offended at all. I understand your positioning. What I am saying you should reconsider is your thinking that it is a "FACT" that out of all the millions of people that visit this forum, no one is a CEO of a large company with lots of resources, credentials, etc. How can you state that as a fact?

            The truth is there ARE people that visit this forum that own and/or control multi-million dollar companies with lots of resources. I know this for a fact.

            Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

            In the fairy tale land of WF, you wake up one day with a great idea, walk up to a multimillion dollar business and they are more than willing to open their checkbook.. no experience needed, no staff needed, no branding needed, no past accomplishments needed, no data needed, no customer service needed.

            Take action! You'll learn on the fly!!!!1one.
            Again, I understand your positioning, but I have personally done exactly as you described above. And we aren't talking about a $50,000 deal, but a $10 million advertising deal. I put together an advertising package that had value and presented it. The CEO of the company was ready to move forward with the deal. I backed out of the deal for personal reasons. The advertiser had too high of a expectation for potential returns and there was no way I was going to lead them on. This was a $250 million company.

            P.S. I'm not trying to attack you. I just realize you may be a little blind to the type of people that visit this forum. They may not post much, but they are here. Trust me.

            P.S.S. Neither am I vouching for the OP's idea... not at all.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7970378].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
              Originally Posted by rushindo View Post

              no one is a CEO of a large company with lots of resources, credentials, etc. How can you state that as a fact?
              When I address this issue, I'm talking about the typical poster that has incredible enthusiasm and has stars in his eyes at the idea of getting a $50,000 contract out of thin air.

              They need to be told that pink eyeglasses are only going to lead them to disappointment.

              I'll give a quick analogy. In my online business (affiliate for a certain niche), a whole lot of people make 10-50k+ per month. Because of that, it attracts a ton of newbies who try their luck and fail miserably. On average, from several polls over the years, it takes between 3-6 months for people to earn their first commission.

              (as a side note, that's the main reason I've never done a course about it.. I'm worried people would be disappointed they didn't get results overnight)

              I know that there are people here that get medium-big contracts. My point is simply that they've grown over time. If you really did get a 10 million deal as a one man operation, without previous credentials, you are the exception that confirms the rule. People win the lotto, but it doesn't mean that if I go buy a ticket I'll win too.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7970503].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author rushindo
                Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

                When I address this issue, I'm talking about the typical poster that has incredible enthusiasm and has stars in his eyes at the idea of getting a $50,000 contract out of thin air.

                They need to be told that pink eyeglasses are only going to lead them to disappointment.

                I'll give a quick analogy. In my online business (affiliate for a certain niche), a whole lot of people make 10-50k+ per month. Because of that, it attracts a ton of newbies who try their luck and fail miserably. On average, from several polls over the years, it takes between 3-6 months for people to earn their first commission.

                (as a side note, that's the main reason I've never done a course about it.. I'm worried people would be disappointed they didn't get results overnight)

                I know that there are people here that get medium-big contracts. My point is simply that they've grown over time. If you really did get a 10 million deal as a one man operation, without previous credentials, you are the exception that confirms the rule. People win the lotto, but it doesn't mean that if I go buy a ticket I'll win too.
                I found your side note refreshing. I have decided to never sell anything about making money online/offline for the same reason as you. You mentioned a lot of people in your affiliate niche making 10-50K per month (gross I assume). Do you guys share your numbers with each other or something?
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7970841].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Devin X
    Banned
    Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

    When they've won you over, start talking about the financial arrangement. Push for the co-branding on the front side that you'll sell for .50 per flyer ($25,000 or $50,000 depending on volume). Clearly many will back out of that, so then you down sell to $10,000 per square. Re-establish the value of the opportunity.
    This is ridiculous! You're not going to convince any small business owner to invest that kind of money in advertising. Even a large corporation would look at this and be like, "aww this is cute."

    Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

    The "front side" feature should cover your cost of printing, delivery, photos, and labor. The 12 squares at $10k a pop are pure profit. That's how you make $120k in two months or so.
    Mental masturbation. This isn't even wishful thinking, since this can give noobs the wrong impression about how the advertising industry works. No way you'd make anywhere near 50,000 in 2 months with this method...never mind your grandiose 120,000.


    Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

    I haven't tried this idea - granted. But I've taken the postcard method and thought of a few implementable ideas...
    Well at least you were honest and stated this little tidbit of information. I suppose I should give you kudos for 1) being honest about your lack of experience, and 2) writing a thread that made me mad enough to reply.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7969579].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author malia
    There is a lot of solid information here, otherwise I wouldn't be visiting WF for several years.

    ....

    Are they better? Smarter? I didn't say that. I said they have more established credibility and resources than the average Joe on this forum. You can feel offended or take it for what it is.
    I've been on both sides of the fence, both corporate and as a small business owner. When you have $25-50K to spend on one ad, you call in the big guys in your industry/area. Think about this, he's talking about ONE mailer, not a series of mailers, not a long term campaign. One ad, not a series of ads. Call every big advertising company in your area, whether it's television, radio, outdoor, direct mail, print/magazine, and say you have $25-50K budgeted for ONE ad and watch what happens.

    No way a company with that kind of spend is going to spend it with a cold-caller, door knocker, solo-preneur. And the solo-preneur is over-estimating how much they know and how well they can present to a company spending at that level.

    I think what concepts like this illustrate (painfully) is how many aspiring solo-preneurs just do not have any comprehension for how businesses are actually run, how things work, and what's appropriate at what level. And to throw in all these comparisons to Apple is ridiculous.

    A restaurant that has the budget to spend $25-50K on ONE AD didn't get there by NOT knowing how to attract and retain customers.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7969708].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author malia
    double post
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7969712].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author proteinman2222
    bigbee, would like to talk more about your ideas! How did this work out for you?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8993944].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author FormerWageSlave
      The impression I got after reading this was that bigbee created this thread to show how creative he is. Like Steve Jobs. And to tell others they shouldn't be negative.

      This wasn't about executing.

      Or maybe I'm wrong? Bigbee, whaddya say boss? You knock this one out?

      Originally Posted by proteinman2222 View Post

      bigbee, would like to talk more about your ideas! How did this work out for you?
      Signature

      grrr...

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8994328].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author cruisinman
        Thread is a year old - kinda like the idea
        Signature

        Life - enjoy it . . .

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8996067].message }}

Trending Topics