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"Over Qualifying People" For An Appointment -Dedicated To PaulInTheSticks

by John Durham
37 replies
I was reading a thread by paulinthesticks, and he was talking about how he pushed some guy over the edge into an appointment who was teeter tottering back and forth... with a really classic telemarketing kung fu move, that deserved to be commended.

Basically Paul broke the guys indecisive pattern and asked "Have you got a calender handy?", and started booking him, from what I understand, instead of waiting for him to say yes or no.

Great move!

Suddenly people start jumping in the thread saying things like (paraphrasing) - "Are you sure you should have done that? Maybe you should have qualified him more to make sure there was real interest..."

Well I wrote Paul a long answer, but I think it deserves its own thread about "Over Qualifying". So, Im answering it here.

I dont always do this, but I do sometimes, when I think a sub topic deserves its own "topic":

Classic line Paul,

This has worked for appointment setters for years! Good thinking, he was teeter tottering and you broke his pattern and pushed him over the fence, with a quick little kung fu move.

It was worth a shot, because any time you can get in front of a prospect and pitch them , there is a chance you can make a sale.

Theoretically it doesnt make sense, but experienced salesman know what Im talking about.

Do you want to know if there is interest?

"Yes", to some degree, but almost ANY level of interest is good enough to pitch.

The guy that walks on a car lot flashing hundred dollar bills (car dealers know this) saying "who wants to sell me a car today" is the least likely to buy, and many who say "Im just looking, and Im interested, but I dont plan on buying till next spring", can often be closed on the spot.

Theoretically, most people would qualify them out, but if they are willing to be pitched, pitch them.

Buyers are liars.

Likewise, many who say "I only have a $20,000. budget" , may still drive off in a $35,000 car.

Im not real big on rebutting a hundred times in the greeting if a person says "not interested", but if there is even a SIGN of interest, then they are worth pitching. Anyone who says different is quoting nice words, but it's not classic advice.

Making people jump through too many hoops for the privilege of hearing your presentation is just stupid. Pitch as many people as you can. If they show any sign of interest, then pitch them.

If you have to push them over the edge because they are teeter tottering on the appointment, yet they have shown a sign of interest... do it, push them over their indecision, and get in front of them, and pitch them.

Over qualifying people will cause you to miss half your sales, and become an average performer.

As long as there is a smidgeon of interest, pitch them if you can. Business theory and business reality are often very much not the same.

It's not like "2+2", there are intuition and persuasion skills involved that trump all the theory.

I cannot stress enough about over qualifying people before you pitch them...that what a man says before he has been pitched, can be drastically different than what he is saying AFTER he has been pitched.

If there is interest, dont make them jump through hoops to "prove" they deserve your pitch.

But what about "take aways"?

There is such a thing as a "take away", and it's highly effective, but its mute, unless you have given them something they want first. lol Otherwise there is nothing to take away.

What are you trying to take away in your greeting for? They dont even WANT you yet! lol

Isnt that putting the cart before the horse?

To further make my point about over qualifying before you have even gotten in front of them...

I may be budgeting for a $700 Stratocaster guitar when you ask me... and you may sell $3,000 ones (Which means Im not your kind of customer in theory)... but if you qualify me out because I said that , you are stupid, because Im a sucker for nice guitars and with the right terms you could sell me.

There is a fifty percent chance you can close me on a $3,000 one, if you dont qualify me out based on what I said before you even had a chance to make me want it.

In fact I may tell you "Im interested in hearing more, but Im not in the buying market right now".

If you dont qualify me out, and you pitch me anyway, and show me how easy it is to own one today..., you could easily put me over the edge.

Dont start demanding that I prove Im worth pitching, because honestly I dont know you from Adam, and dont give a rats ass how important you think you are supposed to be yet...you havent even shown me anything I want, or any reason to jump through your hoops.

In short; I wont lose a wink of sleep if you felt I didnt deserve your pitch and are dumb enough to move on just because I said I wont be buying till next spring.

If you dont pitch me, while the opportunity is there, then some other salesman catches me before next spring because he thought I was worth pitching, then by the time you get back to calling me...well...."You snooze, you lose".

You shouldnt have believed me when I said "Im interested but not till next spring".

You should have run with the "Im interested" part, for all it was worth.

Again, its age old wisdom "Buyers are Liars".

If there is ANY sign of interest, pitch them, or else your competitor will.

Are you going to waste your time sometimes? Sure, but dont waste any potential opportunities.

Now if Im telling you Im not interested and dont want to hear your pitch, thats another thing...dont bang your head... but if I say "sure you can pitch me", dont be stupid and start asking dumb questions. Pitch me.

And dont start trying to qualify me out before you have even shown me the value of what you offer, because what I might say before I am excited about your offer, when Im bored and havent heard your pitch yet...may vary GREATLY from what I say if you ask the same question after you have pitched me and got me excited.

The definition of "Qualifying people out", for me, is simply just not messing with people who show zero potential interest.

If there IS some interest though, or even signs of potential interest, freekin pitch them, dont start asking dumb questions, and try to blow your sale before you even get started. What they say at the beginning of your pitch may be drastically different than what they may say after you have shown them your offer...

If they are halfway interested in an appointment, then push them over the edge so you can get in front of them. That's classic advice.

90% are going to say "Not interested", you cant afford to waste a guy who shows signs of interest and do something stupid like start qualifying him out before you have even got a chance to pitch him and to nurture that interest..., even if it takes a bit of prodding to get him off the fence to set the appointment.

As a rule, if he was easily pushed over the fence to the appointment, thats a CLEAR indication that he might be easily pushed over the fence into a close too...

If I walked up to a telemarketer and said "What are you doing?", and they said..."Well he said he was kind of interested, but he's teeter tottering on the appointment...So Im trying to dig deeper and see if I need to qualify him out..."

I'd be like "WTF?" Who taught you that crap?

Push him over the edge and get the appointment!

Sorry for the language guys, but I get so frustrated with some of the arrogance of the answers given around here that are just plain dumb.

You arent such a rock star that you cant humble yourself to pitch a customer who shows even a smidgeon of interest, and if you blow one off who shows that smidgeon of interest, there is a fifty percent chance that someone who isnt so cocky will come along get your sale.

We dont waste pitch opportunities.

Wherever we get the idea that we are somehow better than our customers, or too good to pitch them, I will never know. I would rather hire someone who pitches every person that walks in the door, they are going to make more sales.

Trust me, Im a pro at "take ways", In fact; I understand them so deeply that it would freak you out if I did a teaching on it... But I also understand this:

"You have 100% chance of missing every shot that you dont take" - Wayne Gretzky

In any event, Paul, you did the right thing.

-John
#appointment #over qualifying #paulinthesticks
  • Profile picture of the author mak25
    Johnny boy, You ARE the man!

    Carry on...
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    Great thread John.

    Another thing to remember is a guy who can't say yes or no is often saying yes but hasn't been fully convinced. For appointment setting you want to close this guy and get him to agree to the appointment. If you are selling to this guy you need to find out what is holding him back.

    I loved the car lot example. The guy "buying today" is often not buying and the guy who is just looking but whom you start talking to will often buy. The reason for this is simple if you think about it.... The guy flashing money and saying how he is "buying today" should have already bought today if he was serious. Deep down he will only buy when someone "earns his business". He is waiting for the best deal and for everyone to bow down to him because he is a "buyer" not like those other "stokers" on the lot. This leads to no gross and he will want to be treated like a king while making you no money. If you can sell him go for it but don't bend over to close him.

    There is also a second type of "buying today" and that is the guy who has been getting turned down for financing everywhere. Of course they will buy if you can get them financed but if you couldn't get them financed 3 months ago and the dealer down the road couldn't get them financed yesterday there isn't much chance of it.

    I'd take one solid "Just Looking" which is open to talking about their wants and needs over a dozen "buying today" guys. I trust my sales skills and know I can sell the guy who is serious but "not buying today".
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  • Profile picture of the author bob ross
    Definitely a great thread, good to know that I'm not the only one who likes pitching almost anyone that I know I have a shot at.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      John; First, another amazing post. Very insightful.

      When I'm talking to someone about making an appointment for my services, I do what you recommend. If there is a pulse, I can usually fan the flame until they buy. But this is in personal selling.

      The most important thing in qualifying over the phone, is that they will be there...along with anyone else (usually a wife/husband/partner) needed to hear my idea.

      The rest of the qualifying comes when I am there. Because now it is less qualifying, and more probing for areas of concern. And my appointments are local. If I was driving 2 hours, it would be a much stronger, more qualified, appointment.

      But is it the same when everything is done in the same call, over the phone?

      Is that what your post was referring to? I just like to make sure.

      And my experience is that, the harder they are to set an appointment with...the easier they are to sell. Because you have penetrated their only real defense.
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  • Profile picture of the author bluecoyotemedia
    John

    like i always say.. you are da man!!!

    even if you no longer sell anything ever in your life. these life's experiences of yours are genuine and as valid as all the good ole copywriting classics.

    your like a billy joel

    these are the moves that i learned in my younger days of selling.. and yes

    the buyer is a liar

    nowadays I have lost the energy and desire of doing this as I only speak with people that has responded to some sort of lead gen piece. aka warm leads

    I am turning 50 and at this point I figure I have 10 years of dealing with people for monetary gain. so I got to kick some ass because I will probably not even speak with people at all when I hit 60 LOL

    eddie
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  • Profile picture of the author Rearden
    This is so true.

    I've moved to the uber-qualifying phone work to just setting appointments based on BOTH lead cards and cold calls.

    I've made 181 calls this week selling my B2B product and have booked 16-18 appointments, just by asking for the appointment, and mentioning some of the other businesses we service in the area.

    I did have to turn around most of them, but it's real easy if you're relaxed about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Will come back and revisit this thread later...but in the mean time. Yes, Claude Im referring to appointment setting over the phone for face to face presentations, or it could also be setting appointments for "phone presentations"...

    In other words, not "One call closing", in which case there would be no appointment setting process and the qualifying would take place throughout the presentation... However, as you suggest, at that point it isnt really qualifying anymore, its more "probing for areas of concern", so that you can address and overcome them.

    You guys are all spot on.

    In Bob Ross case; I know you once sold windows and siding Bob, and my first telemarketing job was setting appointments for windows and siding salesman, so I know you guys will sell an ice cube to an Eskimo, as long as both decision makers are "present" as Claude pointed out.

    The trouble with most of the advice around here is that people want their appointments to be 70% sold before they even show up, because they dont want to have to really "sell" anything... And while that seems to an inexperienced person like less of a waste of time, they waste a TON of prospects in the process who would have bought, had you taken a chance on them.

    People who overqualify, instead of jump at the chance to pitch at every opportunity are typically low performers in my experience, and not very confident as salespeople...

    It's not about the "badge of honor" of saying you are a great sales person (even though thats a highly honorable thing to be able to say), it's just that those guys miss 60% of their sales opportunities for being that way, and miss all kinds of chances, that the guys with high numbers dont sneeze at, they go ahead and take the chance, confident in their ability to sell...

    Understandable, if you really "Dont need the business" I guess :rolleyes: But most of the guys saying "I am choosy about who I work with", even though it sounds cool, in reality, like myself, really DO need the business, and they are just trying to excuse themselves from making real effort.

    This is why motivated new sales people sometimes out produce old lazy experienced ones, because they are eager to pitch.

    @ Eddie, I feel you man, Im moving toward more of a call in kind of situation myself, in which take aways are more sensible, because they are calling YOU. Im getting too old myself to be the young hardcore buck I use to be, but frankly sometimes I still surprise myself at how much of that is still there. Currently Im moving toward something more easy going though, and am going to be using classified ads... I'm in pre launch mode right now, and probably will be until April according to the benchmarks I have set....

    Not much actual sales activity at the moment which I am glad to openly admit... No big secret. lol. It's by choice and design. Thanks for the encouraging words, always.

    Back to Claude,

    Most of the people who do one call closing around here are working with incoming leads... except for Iamnameless.... He just gets on the phone and goes balls to the wall and does 6 or 700 dials at a time and one call closes on COLD calls.

    Thats how the call center guys do it alot of the time, its alot of hard work, and at the end of the day you feel like you have been hit by a mack truck, but its doable, just not an easy going job.

    For most around here, who dont have that kind of drive, appointment setting is more realistic, but by all means dont blow potential appointments by trying to over qualify before you will even go out to see someone, because there are alot of people who might be on the fence in the appointment setting process who would BUY if you got a chance to pitch them.

    Again, as others here have mentioned, if they are on the fence, thats a good sign that they want to but are unsure..., and if you can push them over it...then thats an even BETTER sign...because it means they are people who can be moved into a making a decision with the right prodding.

    A guy who was unsure about the appointment but you were able to commit him, is even better than the guy who says "Sure come on out".

    Now, if they just dont show any signs of interest at all, then In my book, dont waste you time, move on... but if they are even SLIGHTLY giving you buying signals then those are "fannable" flames.

    -John

    Ps. @ Reardon,

    Nice week man, you have set yourself up to not be desperate for a sale with 16 appointments. You are going to have a great week! Nice conversion too at 10% on cold calls! Mentioning other businesses in the area (their peers) always carries some weight. I have been preaching that with the directory site model "give some top local competitors free listings, so you can mention them in your pitch".

    Now, on the directory site model, one call closing is more realistic because you arent asking for $1,500 over the phone. Even That amount isnt unrealistic to one call close on an incoming lead, but on cold calls (over the phone) its a really hard core day to do that in a one call close , and you might not even get one every single day.

    Door to door is different, as Claude has experienced, they are EXPECTED to do it on one call..., as "that's how its done", but on the phone, I dont care who tells you it is, it isnt easy, though doable, you have to work like a machine for seven hours per day to consistently one call close $1,500 deals over the phone... and it takes alot of practice, learning all of your techniques and being able to wield them like a pro.

    You can do it, if you want to feel like you got run over by a truck at the end of every day though, as most full time one call closing telemarketers do. It's a hardcore job.

    Appointment setting is an easy piece of cake.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      My best results when selling in people's homes was setting as many appointments as I could (the only qualification was, they were both there husband/wife, and one had a full time job. Once I arrived, I would qualify further. But at that time, my qualifying consisted of feeling them out to determine if I had a chance at a sale. If I decided I didn't want to be there, I'd call the next appointment that was already set.

      When cold calling in person (knocking on doors), I would first discover if they would let me show my product, then I qualified to determine if I wanted to be there. I could always stop selling if I thought they were a lost cause.
      But it was never because they said "We aren't buying anything no matter what this is". That made no difference at all.

      I've talked in other threads about heavily qualifying, and I do. But this is more done in the personal visit.

      Now, if they call me...it's an entirely different story. The sales process is different. I want to be slightly hard to get, and I want to know why they called me. Sometimes these calls area waste of time.

      My "Qualifying" is really more finding out how to sell them, what appeals to use, and to build their perception of me as an adviser.

      But. If I'm calling on the phone, and am going for a complete sale on the phone (Something I don't do much anymore), I qualify hard. Why? Because calling doesn't take long. Pitching does.

      My goal was always that one great prospect a day that would buy. Just one. Whatever it takes. Because pitching takes a lot out of me.

      Now, it's one person that owns a company a day. But now, they do have to show at least an awareness of what I offer and that I'm coming to talk business. If I'm driving for 2 hours? They already said "Yes, if you can show me what you claimed, I'll sign up while you are here". And they know my fee.
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      • Profile picture of the author bob ross
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        My best results when selling in people's homes was setting as many appointments as I could (the only qualification was, they were both there husband/wife, and one had a full time job. Once I arrived, I would qualify further. But at that time, my qualifying consisted of feeling them out to determine if I had a chance at a sale. If I decided I didn't want to be there, I'd call the next appointment that was already set.

        When cold calling in person (knocking on doors), I would first discover if they would let me show my product, then I qualified to determine if I wanted to be there. I could always stop selling if I thought they were a lost cause.
        But it was never because they said "We aren't buying anything no matter what this is". That made no difference at all.

        I've talked in other threads about heavily qualifying, and I do. But this is more done in the personal visit.

        Now, if they call me...it's an entirely different story. The sales process is different. I want to be slightly hard to get, and I want to know why they called me. Sometimes these calls area waste of time.

        My "Qualifying" is really more finding out how to sell them, what appeals to use, and to build their perception of me as an adviser.

        But. If I'm calling on the phone, and am going for a complete sale on the phone (Something I don't do much anymore), I qualify hard. Why? Because calling doesn't take long. Pitching does.

        My goal was always that one great prospect a day that would buy. Just one. Whatever it takes. Because pitching takes a lot out of me.

        Now, it's one person that owns a company a day. But now, they do have to show at least an awareness of what I offer and that I'm coming to talk business. If I'm driving for 2 hours? They already said "Yes, if you can show me what you claimed, I'll sign up while you are here". And they know my fee.
        I'm pretty sure you and I could talk for hours about our B2C experiences. I like the ones that never actually give you a "yes". You just have to write them up and assume the sale.

        One of my most profitable B2C customers was a guy who I sold over and over for years but he never once gave me a "yes". He would always give objection after objection and the only way to sell him was to stick the contract in front of him and tell him where to sign. I've had a lot of those, I'm sure you have too, where you have zero chance of getting them to actually say yes—but they'll sign and be ecstatic.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by bob ross View Post

          One of my most profitable B2C customers was a guy who I sold over and over for years but he never once gave me a "yes". He would always give objection after objection and the only way to sell him was to stick the contract in front of him and tell him where to sign. I've had a lot of those, I'm sure you have too, where you have zero chance of getting them to actually say yes—but they'll sign and be ecstatic.
          I'm going to admit that those customers are harder for me to figure out. Yes, I've had them. Yes, they bought. But it's unnatural for me to write up a sales without them saying "Yes".

          I had a rep that used the assumptive close as his only close. He just kept going unless they stopped him. It worked as well as anything else.

          I've actually said to customers "Does that mean Yes?" or "Does that mean No?" (when they keep giving me random objections that aren't real).

          Honestly, a "No, thank you" once in a while would be refreshing. there is a dance most people have to go through to buy something substantial.
          I know it's a dance that leads to a sale, usually. But I really don't enjoy it at all.
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        • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
          Originally Posted by bob ross View Post

          I'm pretty sure you and I could talk for hours about our B2C experiences. I like the ones that never actually give you a "yes". You just have to write them up and assume the sale.

          One of my most profitable B2C customers was a guy who I sold over and over for years but he never once gave me a "yes". He would always give objection after objection and the only way to sell him was to stick the contract in front of him and tell him where to sign. I've had a lot of those, I'm sure you have too, where you have zero chance of getting them to actually say yes--but they'll sign and be ecstatic.
          I've gotten them many times. In our case I just ask for the credit card for the deposit and have them fill out the credit app. If they don't want to buy they won't give me the credit card.

          It's weird but some people literally can't say yes. You have to assume the sale. Which IMO is a great close anyways. If you know the guy is buying why not just assume the sale?

          Great way to force a no without having to force the yes. Strangely it really appears to take pressure off many customers. Truly a win win situation.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

            I've gotten them many times. In our case I just ask for the credit card for the deposit and have them fill out the credit app. If they don't want to buy they won't give me the credit card.

            It's weird but some people literally can't say yes. You have to assume the sale. Which IMO is a great close anyways. If you know the guy is buying why not just assume the sale?

            Great way to force a no without having to force the yes. Strangely it really appears to take pressure off many customers. Truly a win win situation.
            Some people are truly incapable of making a decision. It has to be made for them. I actually had a young couple looking at a vacuum cleaner say (Can't remember if it was the husband or wife) "Am I supposed to buy this?"

            I said "If you want it, you are supposed to buy it. If you don't want it, you are supposed to say No. Do you want it?"

            I honestly don't remember now if they bought. But human nature is fascinating.
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          • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
            Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

            If you know the guy is buying why not just assume the sale?

            Great way to force a no without having to force the yes. Strangely it really appears to take pressure off many customers. Truly a win win situation.
            I realize it works with some people but it irritates the hell out of me when sales people assume the close with me. I think you really need to read your prospect right otherwise you might lose them for good.

            A few years ago I was at the local music store checking out studio gear. Every time the sales guy showed and told me about a product, he would take one off the shelf or go to the back and get one and put it on the counter.

            I was in the research stage at that point and told him that. After it was all said and done he had like 6 items worth about $4000 sitting there waiting for me, then he assumed the close and I didn't buy anything. He was not a happy camper. Serves him right.
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            • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
              Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

              I realize it works with some people but it irritates the hell out of me when sales people assume the close with me. I think you really need to read your prospect right otherwise you might lose them for good.

              A few years ago I was at the local music store checking out studio gear. Every time the sales guy showed and told me about a product, he would take one off the shelf or go to the back and get one and put it on the counter.

              I was in the research stage at that point and told him that. After it was all said and done he had like 6 items worth about $4000 sitting there waiting for me, then he assumed the close and I didn't buy anything. He was not a happy camper. Serves him right.
              You have to know when someone is buying (or likely buying) to do the assuption close right. That guy did it wrong and actually lost the sale.

              As I (and many others here with sales experience) have said time and time again you don't "close" the sale at the closing. You close it long before that during the presentation. The closing is a formality or at least a test if you are correct in your assumption.

              In reality every "close" is an assumption close in a proper sales process because you would never attempt to close someone unless you believed (aka assumed) they were buying. In reality this sadly isn't the case as many (a majority?) sales people believe that you sell by closing. These guys sell enough people to think what they are doing is working. The problem is they don't understand how many sales they are losing. For a guy making $30 to $40k a year (aka an average/bad sales person) he might be leaving 50% or more of his potential income on the table.

              I know a car salesman that makes $300k plus at a dealership where the average guy is like $40k. That should be a huge wake up call to the other sales people but it isn't.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rearden
              Good sales people will piss off some prospects, because they realize they have nothing to lose when they try for a close, even if the odds are low they won't get you.

              Think about it.


              Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

              I realize it works with some people but it irritates the hell out of me when sales people assume the close with me. I think you really need to read your prospect right otherwise you might lose them for good.

              A few years ago I was at the local music store checking out studio gear. Every time the sales guy showed and told me about a product, he would take one off the shelf or go to the back and get one and put it on the counter.

              I was in the research stage at that point and told him that. After it was all said and done he had like 6 items worth about $4000 sitting there waiting for me, then he assumed the close and I didn't buy anything. He was not a happy camper. Serves him right.
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              • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
                Originally Posted by Aaron Doud View Post

                As I (and many others here with sales experience) have said time and time again you don't "close" the sale at the closing. You close it long before that during the presentation. The closing is a formality or at least a test if you are correct in your assumption.
                Its a really good point Aaron. Lots of sales people have tried it, but no one has ever closed me before assuming the sale. I'm guessing most sales people aren't taught that important distinction.

                Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

                The main point is that you shouldn't be too good to pitch someone if they show ANY potential buying signals or a slight sign of interest... If you miss em, or pass on em...your competitor who has a more aggressive salesman, will come along and close them while you are snoozing.
                John, I agree cause you're nice to me. Seriously, the only caveat I could see would be how badly you want the client or how hard you want to work for your money. Some people (eg Chet Holmes) will pursue big fish even if there is no interest whatsoever if they believe the prospect needs the product. They work hard to convince you that you should be interested. I guess it comes down to ROI.

                Originally Posted by Rearden View Post

                Good sales people will piss off some prospects, because they realize they have nothing to lose when they try for a close, even if the odds are low they won't get you.
                I assume you meant if the odds are high that they won't get you. In my case some of the sales people might have actually gotten the sale had they been a little more tactful and not pissed me off.
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            • Profile picture of the author socialentry
              Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

              I realize it works with some people but it irritates the hell out of me when sales people assume the close with me. I think you really need to read your prospect right otherwise you might lose them for good.

              A few years ago I was at the local music store checking out studio gear. Every time the sales guy showed and told me about a product, he would take one off the shelf or go to the back and get one and put it on the counter.

              I was in the research stage at that point and told him that. After it was all said and done he had like 6 items worth about $4000 sitting there waiting for me, then he assumed the close and I didn't buy anything. He was not a happy camper. Serves him right.
              lol, I assume the close all the time.

              I have my little opening pitch for appointments and then I just ask them whats the best time for them to come (i usually give them a choice between tuesdays and Wednesdays). I try to get them to come to the office and the closer do the qualifying there.

              Points:
              -I just found that it was simply the best way to control the conversation from early on. Why give the prospect the opportunity to say no? Ok, they can always decline the offer, but why help them along? If they don`t agree with something, they`ll tell you.

              Up to now, I have had people get angry at me for various reasons but I have not had a single person get uppity for assuming the sale if I came across as sharp as a tack and as a figure of authority.

              -It allows to get people who are easy pickings and pre-sold right off the bat to take the bait.

              -I think it is a fallacy to use only what would work on yourself on other people.

              I would not buy from the salesmen @ bestbuy ... but it doesn't mean their training is nescessarly bad . It is more then adequate for selling mom and pops and most other Gen Yers.

              "In God we trust, everyone else, use data"

              Just my .002 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
    Thanks for the encouragement John. Its greatly appreciated. Its been extremely rare that anyone has told me I did something right on this forum and since consulting is a new business for me and I've haven't done much in sales and no cold calling, it really helps me to keep pushing forward

    They will almost always just point out the one thing I did wrong. And in this case, since I didn't do anything wrong, they found something I might have done wrong...lol

    Back to the prospect. We had really good rapport going right away so my foot was in the door pretty quickly so to speak and I knew this was a great opportunity to get an appt. but I still had to overcome a few objections. The first one was he said he's got other big investments he's funding right now. And then his wife would have to approve any new expenditures. And I never even tried to sell him anything.

    My response was along the lines of the only commitment he had to make was 15 minutes of his time to prove that my service will far more than pay for itself. I kept going back to ROI and (thanks to Ewen Mack) used the suggestion of "give me 15 minutes and I'll show you how make thousands." And of course I still had to use the "calendar" close.

    There were a few bumps but overall I'm pretty proud of myself that I handled the call very well. The main thing I did right was I was very confident and stayed in control of the dialog.

    Oh yea, most importantly he's spending mucho grande on marketing and I'm confident his ROI is marginal at best so I think its a really good opportunity. And of course, I'm going to keep following up with him til next week and ask him to have his wife at the meeting.
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    Well, I wouldn't agree that you ought to jump on everyone for a sale because a lot of the sale does have to do with the person you're talking to, so they have to be right... but that's not really the secret sauce at work here. I believe it works more like this:

    I get a call from a lead. First I'm going to ask them some questions to find out where they're at and what makes them tick insofar as my service goes. In doing that I'm also going to build desire and have them think of me as their best choice. This is part of me qualifying them too, because if we're not the right fit, this is going to make them bail when they realize I'm not the guy for them.

    Now if they're still talking with me at the end of that, I'm going to volunteer a price range. If they're still talking with me after that and haven't bailed, I'm going to suggest making an appointment. If I have them sold, they'll want the appointment. And so they're qualified. So what's happened here?

    Because I never turn them down, even though I'm qualifying them as we go. That's because they can weed themselves out at any point and disqualify themselves. But if they're still talking with me, all I'm doing is proactively advancing them to go to the next step. They either will which means they're interested, willing and able - or they won't.

    And that's what it seems Paul did. The guy was still talking with him and the point comes to make the appointment. The guy didn't bail. He was still in. And the mistake would've been if Paul didn't stick to an outline that has him advancing the prospect. So instead of Paul going silent or dismissing the guy, he knows to proceed and says something to advance the sale. "Got your calendar handy?"

    I had it happen the other day. "Um, " she says, "I'm not sure what my fiance's schedule is so can I call you back to make the appointment?" "Hmmm," I say, kind of ignoring her request. "I'm looking at my calendar and I don't have anything for the next week and a half. I have [future date] available right now, do you want to grab it before it fills up? And then you can tell him and get back to me." She didn't say no. She could've. And if she wasn't interested, she would've. But she was interested. So she said yes. I got the appointment. Because I kept the ball rolling. I kept advancing. Even though I'm also qualifying.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by misterme View Post

      I get a call from a lead. First I'm going to ask them some questions to find out where they're at and what makes them tick insofar as my service goes.
      Agreed, but in your case, the calls are incoming, so you have a bit more leverage than a cold caller does, and you dont have to think as fast, because you are dealing with pre existing interest, enough of it that someone called in of their own volition.

      You arent dealing with a cold canvassing process in your case; when they call in to talk to you, you are already in the "sales" process, talking to people who already know they have a need, enough to seek you out. You dont have to create interest in your service.

      In a 'cold call" you dont have that pre existing interest, you are trying to discover some, or "create it" out of the blue working with quick, non premeditated impulses that you sometimes have to "create". It's not as casual.

      In your case you arent trying to sell them on being interested in a service or a quote, they are calling because they WANT one.... , it's just a matter of selling them into choosing YOU.

      Im sure there is no commercial cold calling list for people who are getting married. They know they need a photographer and they call you because they are actively seeking one.

      In a cold call, you are "suggesting" something out of the blue... if you get a spark of interest you have to move the process along fast with urgency.

      It's an impulse committment, then when you get out to the appointment you have now entered into a sales process, but thats not what appointment setting is.

      In other words, you are talking about a sales process when you talk to a call in, but a cold appointment setter isnt talking about a sales process, they are talking about a canvassing process.

      Two different things:

      A: One is dealing with an interested customer, and is in a sales situation from the first call (Misterme)
      B: The other is dealing with "creating" an interested prospect, with no premeditated interest, in order to make suggest an out of the blue idea, and try to set an appointment, and thus get into a sales process (appointment setter).

      In other words, taking call ins, is not the same as cold calling, totally different animal altogether, but then Im not sure I specified that I was talking about cold calling, so the confusion is understandable.

      Im sure Claude could agree that walking door to door canvassing is not the same as talking to a call in lead who has enough pre existing interest to have called in. Totally different energy.

      In fact: (now that I think of it...)

      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      Now, if they call me...it's an entirely different story. The sales process is different. I want to be slightly hard to get, and I want to know why they called me. Sometimes these calls are a waste of time.

      Apples and Oranges.

      -John

      ps. Dont mind me guys, Im just separating the prospecting process from the sales process again, and making the distinction, because they are two separate functions. Not to be redun-dun-dun-dant.
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      • Profile picture of the author misterme
        Originally Posted by bluecoyotemedia View Post

        I am turning 50 and at this point I figure I have 10 years of dealing with people for monetary gain. so I got to kick some ass because I will probably not even speak with people at all when I hit 60
        Ha. Ha. Ha. Welcome to the youth of old age, the old age of youth.

        Let's see what your thinking is when you hit your late 50's, my friend. You'll still get to speak to people. The only difference will be with the vast majority of them, you just won't want to. Now get off my lawn. Bwahahaha.

        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I had a rep that used the assumptive close as his only close. He just kept going unless they stopped him. It worked as well as anything else.

        I've actually said to customers "Does that mean Yes?" or "Does that mean No?" (when they keep giving me random objections that aren't real).
        That's what I'm saying. The sales person keeps advancing, it's the prospect who'll bail if need be.

        Assuming the sale is the most natural sensible way to go BECAUSE if they're not buying, why are they there? So forgive me Mr. and Ms. Prospect for not understanding you're just getting prices today. I thought we were here to wrap this up.

        Asking them to verbally confirm if they mean yes or no... isn't that like an unnecessary step? I mean if you hand them the pen, they'll let you know if it's yes or no. Oh yes they will.

        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Some people are truly incapable of making a decision. It has to be made for them. I actually had a young couple looking at a vacuum cleaner say (Can't remember if it was the husband or wife) "Am I supposed to buy this?"

        I said "If you want it, you are supposed to buy it. If you don't want it, you are supposed to say No. Do you want it?"
        And from now on when they ask "Am I supposed to buy this?", how about answering with, "It's the right thing to do."

        I'm getting more and more into that mindset. I even have a name for this approach now.

        Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        Agreed, but in your case, the calls are incoming, so you have a bit more leverage than a cold caller does, and you dont have to think as fast, because you are dealing with pre existing interest, enough of it that someone called in of their own volition.

        ..."creating" an interested prospect, with no premeditated interest, in order to make suggest an out of the blue idea, and try to set an appointment, and thus get into a sales process
        Given that, isn't the "advancing" I mentioned still part of it? Because wouldn't asking any canvassing question still fit both models? That is, keep it advancing because as long as the prospect's advancing, it shows interest and it leads the call to the appointment? So even as you create interest, it's still an advancement if they're coming along?
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by misterme View Post


          Asking them to verbally confirm if they mean yes or no... isn't that like an unnecessary step? I mean if you hand them the pen, they'll let you know if it's yes or no. Oh yes they will.
          It isn't usually a separate step. My close is usually 'Is that OK?". And then I start filling out forms. When I was selling in people's homes, I asked that question because I wanted the spouse to hear the answer. It made for a stronger close. And if they are going to object, it's a stronger objection when you just assume the sale and start on the paperwork. I've done it both ways, and I like asking. Much of that is just habit and personal preference.

          Originally Posted by misterme View Post

          And from now on when they ask "Am I supposed to buy this?", how about answering with, "It's the right thing to do."

          I'm getting more and more into that mindset. I even have a name for this approach now.
          Your answer is better than mine. I'm stealing it. To be honest, I haven't heard that as a question in a couple decades. I really like "It's the right thing to do".
          It's an implied command, and if they balk at that, it's like they are fighting your expertise.

          I'm saying I like it as a technique. And I'll use it. Personally, it depresses me that all this stuff works. I keep wishing people were stronger than that. And smarter.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Hey Guys,

    I have to tell you, sometimes I take my points to an extreme...to the point where people (no one here) might say I make a religion out of a given point, and thats all I believe..

    I actually have all kinds of ways of doing things, but when "preaching" on a certain technique I really try to drive it in hard, I suppose that comes from being a manager over alot of telemarketers for a long time... I would just drive stuff home really hard to where it really made an impression and stuck with people. Usually focusing on one fine point at any given time, and putting 100% energy on that point... Whatever point I saw a problem with, or whatever I saw needed to be integrated into my telemarketers sales processes the most...or wherever I saw there was a weakness that needed to be strengthened.

    Not to brag, but I have never managed a team for anyone else, that didnt break the company records by a long shot.

    Assuming the close isnt the only way to close a deal obviously, and there are alot of great minds and approaches, I just tend to throw myself into whatever point I am making and try to get it to stick for the benefit of whoever needs that particular lesson.

    It a passion thing, for teaching and training. In any event, this is all said in context...I dont think you HAVE to assume closes, but I think you need to be "strong enough" to, if it is needed.

    Needless to say, usually when I am managing a group, they develop a pretty hardcore attitude about themselves and they think they are Champions, and there is alot of adrenaline in my rooms generally.

    I literally convince them that they are stronger than average people, just by the merit of their coming in a dialing every day, because most people cant do it. They become proud of what they do.

    In this particular case, Im not saying "dont qualify", Im saying "Dont be stupid about it and make it into such a religion that you start asking cocky questions before you even have any desire to leverage, it's putting the cart before the horse and doesnt make any kind of sense".

    The main point is that you shouldn't be too good to pitch someone if they show ANY potential buying signals or a slight sign of interest... If you miss em, or pass on em...your competitor who has a more aggressive salesman, will come along and close them while you are snoozing.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Let's see....It takes 30-45 minutes to pitch someone.... might make a couple grand plus residuals....?

    How hard is that?

    Even Lawyers give free consultations, that is a "pitch". It's not that hard.

    Prospecting     is the hard part, so it makes less sense to me to waste a prospect. Unless you really dont need business that much. It's easier to do an hour of pitching than an hour of prospecting, so why blow a prospect if you come across one?

    Prospecting doesnt make money, pitching does...

    If a person spends most of their time prospecting and blows off their pitch opportunities...What a waste. Isnt that the point of prospecting? To find people you can pitch?
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    • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
      I'm guessing its going to come down to ROI. Seems like if you're not pre-qualifying well enough, you're conversions won't be very good. And maybe if you're over-qualifying, you won't get enough opportunities. But I would think in general since selling face to face with some sort of visual presentation is so much more effective in general, I'd prefer to err on the side of under-qualifying.

      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Let's see....It takes 30-45 minutes to pitch someone.... might make a couple grand plus residuals....?

      How hard is that?

      Even Lawyers give free consultations, that is a "pitch". It's not that hard.

      Prospecting       is the hard part, so it makes less sense to me to waste a prospect. Unless you really dont need business that much. It's easier to do an hour of pitching than an hour of prospecting, so why blow a prospect if you come across one?

      Prospecting doesnt make money, pitching does...

      If a person spends most of their time prospecting and blows off their pitch opportunities...What a waste.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

        I'm guessing its going to come down to ROI. Seems like if you're not pre-qualifying well enough, you're conversions won't be very good. And maybe if you're over-qualifying, you won't get enough opportunities. But I would think in general since selling face to face with some sort of visual presentation is so much more effective in general, I'd prefer to err on the side of under-qualifying.
        Edit: Had posted something, but I had initially misunderstood your point here, so editing.

        My conversions were not the highest at all during my sales career, but I was number one at the end of almost every day, with the highest gross...

        If one guy spends all day prospecting, being highly selective, but pitching only two people and gets them both (100% Conversion), and another guy is closing at only 25% but pitches 20 people per day, then who is getting a better ROI at the end of the day?

        Conversions are good for the ego, but ROI is what matters, the two are not synonymous. Who has the most sales at the end of the day? Thats what matters.

        Also, conversion is relative- who is converting more prospects into pitches?

        As a business owner you can only convert as many "pitches" into "closes" as you can convert "prospects" into "pitches".
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        • Profile picture of the author PaulintheSticks
          Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

          I really dont mean to be argumentative at all, just stating a fact... My conversions were not the highest at all during my sales career, but I was number one at the end of almost every day, with the highest gross...

          If one guy spends all day prospecting, being highly selective, but pitching two people and gets them both (100% conversion), and another guy is closing at only 25% but pitches 20 people per day, who is getting a better ROI?

          Conversions are good for the ego, but ROI is what matters, the two are not synonymous. Who has the most sales at the end of the day? Thats what matters.

          Also, conversion is relative- who is converting more prospects into pitches?

          Anyway, to each his own.
          Points taken John. For me qualifying and conversion rate is really important because I have to drive 40 minutes each way to town for an appt./meeting. I assume we are talking about face-to-face appt's and qualifying by phone.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Durham
            Originally Posted by PaulintheSticks View Post

            Points taken John. For me qualifying and conversion rate is really important because I have to drive 40 minutes each way to town and spend $10 in gas for an appt./meeting. I assume we are talking about face-to-face appt's and qualifying by phone.
            I actually edited the above post, because I misunderstood you, there was nothing to argue with. Sorry about that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Let's see....It takes 30-45 minutes to pitch someone.... might make a couple grand plus residuals....?

      How hard is that?

      Even Lawyers give free consultations, that is a "pitch". It's not that hard.

      Prospecting       is the hard part, so it makes less sense to me to waste a prospect. Unless you really dont need business that much. It's easier to do an hour of pitching than an hour of prospecting, so why blow a prospect if you come across one?

      Prospecting doesnt make money, pitching does...

      If a person spends most of their time prospecting and blows off their pitch opportunities...What a waste. Isnt that the point of prospecting? To find people you can pitch?
      I had to think about your post for awhile before I replied. Of course your right, as you define a pitch.

      Me? I'm used to sales calls taking two hours. Maybe an hour, if there is no wasted time schmoozing. And pitching takes concentrated effort on my part.
      You know what I'm talking about. The dance. Paying attention to what they say, interruptions, relationships in the company, watching for land mines.

      Because I only pitch for one reason. To make a sale. It's work. Sometimes easy, usually a draining couple of hours. In fact, I don't even try for two a day anymore. I'm talking about higher dollar in person selling.

      But prospecting? To me it's nearly effortless, because I'm just repeating the same things. I'm thinking of completely different things from what I'm saying.
      And it only takes a minute or two on the phone.

      Now...if you are talking about a 15 minute pitch on the phone? Absolutely, I would take every call as far as I could. Because you can conceivably do several complete pitches a day.

      When I'm doing a day of outside selling, I'm just looking for that one guy at the end of the day that will buy.

      Of course, when I was knocking on doors...at about 8PM, just about anyone would do, because my window of prospecting was closing fast.

      Anyway, I don't know if that added anything, but I sure am enjoying this thread. Thanks Guys.
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      • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        Now...if you are talking about a 15 minute pitch on the phone? Absolutely, I would take every call as far as I could. Because you can conceivably do several complete pitches a day.

        .
        Our golden rule is ( Be in the money within 20 minutes )

        Time has proven over and over if your not, your usually not
        in control of the conversation ... and we all know what that gets you.

        I am talking phone sales. I know face to face sales take longer for some reason.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Durham
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Our golden rule is ( Be in the money within 20 minutes )

          Time has proven over and over if your not, your usually not
          in control of the conversation ... and we all know what that gets you.

          I am talking phone sales. I know face to face sales take longer for some reason.
          Where the heck have YOU been hiding, young man?
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

          Our golden rule is ( Be in the money within 20 minutes )

          Time has proven over and over if your not, your usually not
          in control of the conversation ... and we all know what that gets you.

          I am talking phone sales. I know face to face sales take longer for some reason.
          Yeah! Where have you been? You were missed.

          Someone asked me that question once and I had to think about it, because, at first thought, it doesn't make sense.

          But in person a lot more goes on. You have to shake hands, a little small talk, get seated, interruptions occur, a lot of physical movement takes place that doesn't happen on the phone. A video of my presentation is 40 minutes long (I made it for training in the future). That includes questions and answers (from stand in buyers). But that always expands out with an in person visit.
          These is a lot more small talk in person, especially at the beginning. On the phone, I want to talk business. If someone stops by my store, it's business...but I get them something to drink..there are a few pleasantries. It just takes longer. In person, even if I trim the fat, it's 90 minutes.

          Man, I think I'm selling myself on just sticking to the phone.
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          • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            Yeah! Where have you been? You were missed.

            Someone asked me that question once and I had to think about it, because, at first thought, it doesn't make sense.

            But in person a lot more goes on. You have to shake hands, a little small talk, get seated, interruptions occur, a lot of physical movement takes place that doesn't happen on the phone. A video of my presentation is 40 minutes long (I made it for training in the future). That includes questions and answers (from stand in buyers). But that always expands out with an in person visit.
            These is a lot more small talk in person, especially at the beginning. On the phone, I want to talk business. If someone stops by my store, it's business...but I get them something to drink..there are a few pleasantries. It just takes longer. In person, even if I trim the fat, it's 90 minutes.

            Man, I think I'm selling myself on just sticking to the phone.
            Just cleaning up the mess

            Such the wrong time of year for things to go side ways ...
            This is typically my busy time of year, when things really start popping.

            The phone is where its at

            I don't envy you guys who hump it on foot. Not one little bit.
            I admit it was fun and and exciting when i did it. But only
            as a learning experience, not somethign i would want to do
            full time as a career
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          • Profile picture of the author mak25
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


            Man, I think I'm selling myself on just sticking to the phone.
            I wish I could. Driving in and around Jersey is plain madness.
            The traffic is killer. Every damn road I think is 'Under Construction'.

            The miles needed to get to appointments are vast, but necessary given the make-up of the state.

            Plus, selling what I do, I find it necessary to have all of my materials and 'proof' to close my deals, right in their face.
            Seems like that would be difficult just using the phone.

            But I think I'm going to at least give it a try once I've reached the point where driving gets to be too much, and I want to expand my coverage area.

            I'll just have to change my approach, and realize it's going to take more than one call to close deals.

            But like you said Claude, I think I would rather stick to the phone.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      , so why blow a prospect if you come across one?
      Sometimes you just really really need a sale.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Sometimes you just really really need a sale.
        That took a second to "get", but the delayed effect was waaay worth it!
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

    If one guy spends all day prospecting, being highly selective, but pitching only two people and gets them both (100% Conversion), and another guy is closing at only 25% but pitches 20 people per day, then who is getting a better ROI at the end of the day?
    I hear what you're saying but it sounds like talking about who's gross is better at the end of the day.

    If it's truly ROI, they both kind of suck, though the first guy's worse than the second. As their Sales Manager, I'd fire the first guy because he's cherry picking and letting leads walk. I'd see the second guy closing 25% as the minimum average standard acceptable though but be pissed that he's burning through 4 leads that cost me $XXX each for every 1 sale he makes. Determining who's got the better ROI here is like choosing between the lesser of two evils.

    As the salesperson, if I were the first guy I'd look to figure out how to leverage what I'm doing so that I can pitch more in a day, since I have such a fantastic close ratio. Or better yet, I'd figure out how to make more per sale. Maybe have more back end sales ops, cross sells, upsells, etc.

    Even if scaling up lowers my close ratio some, I'm gonna do fantastic.

    As the second salesperson needing to close a better percentage, I'd want some tips from the first guy. But not the poison.
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