At My Wits End...SEO/Offline Marketing Problem

33 replies
So I have two clients who are painters in my town.

My town has a population of around 200k. I have other clients on SEO services who are doing very well (I have a cleaner who is getting around 200 visitors, paying $250 a month and an auto electrician who is getting around 250 visitors a month and paying $400 per month)...but I can't achieve anywhere near the same results for my painters.

I have only ranked a few keywords for the above clients, usually their 'big' keywords like 'cleaners town' and 'auto electrician town', but 'painters town' gets like 1/3 the searches as the other two industries.

Now, one of my painters is 'OK' with being on the first page and not getting many hits (he told me he has gotten a couple jobs so far), but the other is has told me that in the 6 months of paying his $100 a month, he hasn't got a single job out of it.

Now this guy is really nice, very polite and totally honest and straight up. But he's just not seeing a return obviously. I am at a loss of what to do.

I look at it this way : If I can BARELY scrounge together results for 'painters town', what hope will I have targeting even longer tail keywords like 'house painters town'?

But I can't price lower than $100 a month or I won't even be making cost price. Am I out of options with this client and just have to 'leave it be'?

So if any of you guys offering the same services have run into this problem, a rock and a hard place with a client, please share your experience, would love to hear it!
#endseo or offline #marketing #problem #wits
  • Profile picture of the author grey38
    Why not use Google + Local? An easy enough service, and like 100x the people will just search "painters" and the painters in their city will show up, rather than people searching "painters city".

    G+ Local doesn't have a tangible amount of searches, but you will get much higher results using them and putting a few reviews for your clients. You should have no problem making them the #1 plumbers in their respective cities. If they're both in the same city try this. Try to sell the higher service (G+ Local) to both, whichever one bites make like 400 a month and you'll do no work : ) Use the other person as a hook and tell the owners you have another painter who you'll be offering this service to. Just try not to make it seem like you're forcing them.

    If for some reason you don't have G+ Local in your area, i'm not sure what to tell you. Facebook + Video would be next best bet. But that's a lot of work for little return on your part.
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  • Profile picture of the author David B.
    post ads in classifieds like CL, backpage and there should be a local one to your area that is popular.
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  • Profile picture of the author modex
    What exactly is your marketing strategy? Maybe you can try switching it a little bit.
    In my experience, targeting long tail keywords first and then proceeding to single or double word keywords is a better strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
    1st Learn how to do some real seo/marketing then

    Get him to commit to a real marketing plan with a real investment
    none of this $100/mo bs.

    To be very honest with you I believe you failed the guy from the get go
    with such a small sale that leaves you no room to provide service to him
    and make a profit at the same time.

    Dont be the guy that gives every one else a bad name because you dont know what you are doing. Video, google +, directories and more are things that can help him.

    Maybe the one key word you are ranking for is not the one people are using to find this service?
    How is this guy tracking sales, how can he be sure that not a single person has come from the website? Is the website even optimized for conversions?

    I gotta believe in a town of 200k there are more than enough people looking for painters.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Is he getting leads from your efforts and not converting them to business?
    We can only do so much.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    $100 a month? That is the problem.

    Just cut him loose and get another one. Charge the correct price this time.
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  • Profile picture of the author vndnbrgj
    Why are you doing SEO for 2 painters in the same time?
    Do you plan on ranking both #1, competing with yourself and doing one a dis-service?

    What have you done to try and rank thus far?

    Also, you should be going for multiple keywords.

    What kind of traffic are they getting?
    If they are getting traffic, but its not converting, its either the site or the person answering the phone. Or both. I would look into this.

    And raise your prices....!
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    • Profile picture of the author payoman
      Originally Posted by vndnbrgj View Post

      Why are you doing SEO for 2 painters in the same time?
      Do you plan on ranking both #1, competing with yourself and doing one a dis-service?
      They are both being charged the bare minimum because, well, as I said, I am finding the traffic to be roughly 1/3rd of some of the other industries in my town.

      I am interested in trying PPC for the client and seeing what works there.
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      • Profile picture of the author cshilling22
        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        They are both being charged the bare minimum because, well, as I said, I am finding the traffic to be roughly 1/3rd of some of the other industries in my town.

        I am interested in trying PPC for the client and seeing what works there.
        You could also set up your own lead gen site, send all the traffic to yourself, and then just sell them leads.
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  • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
    Dominate local search and business directories like yelp/yellow pages/yahoo local/bing local etc etc.

    You can also rank long tail keywords on youtube, very fast.

    In addition, Craigslist would be a great place to promote painting services.
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    • Profile picture of the author cshilling22
      How do you know that he has not gotten any business from your efforts? What is the tracking system in place for that?

      Does he have problems with the call to action on his site?

      Does he have problems with converting leads into sales?

      Does he focus on a specific painting niche in the town, or has he considered it, so that you can position him as the go to person for those painting services in the town?

      Have you thought about additional marketing outside of the internet like a simple flyer drop or joint venture that would increase business and also possibly drive people to the site?

      Don't just look at it from a standpoint of being an SEO person who just tries to increase search engine rankings. Look at it as being someone who can help them increase business and make more money. To do this you need to look at all aspects of the business and recommend the necessary changes. Then you need to track results so you can make adjustments and demonstrate the ROI you are providing. As a painter he could easily make an additional $5-10,000 from your efforts and since you can achieve those results the $100 a month you are charging is defeinitely too low, as many people have already pointed out.
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      • Profile picture of the author MRomeo09
        I also think you're charging too little, but that's hardly the point. If you're charging $100 and your client is not getting any return on their investment then you're charging too much. So get better, BE better.

        Don't pigeon hole yourself as an SEO guy, instead put your marketing consultant hat on. What else can you do to get feet in the door, and money in the pocket for your client?

        First off, I would mystery shop them. Have some of your friends call the business. Do they answer the phone in less than three rings? How do they handle the inquiry? Do they do a good job of closing on the phone?

        This is one of the biggest things I've done for most of my clients is to help them to get better on the phone. It's not that difficult, but most service businesses are horrible at it. If you ask them they think they are closing most of the business who rings them that actually need them. But when you meticulously track things, they are converting perhaps 10-20% of the incoming phone calls(sometimes much worse). There is a complete disconnect between what they THINK is happening and what is actually happening.

        I found the same thing in one of our offline businesses. I thought we were in the 70-80% conversion rate, only to find out when we were meticulous about tracking that we were closer to 25%.

        So find out how they do on the phone. See if you can help them. So many companies are so bad at it that you can generate 20 phone calls a month and they will find a way to turn away even the ones who are salivating to give them money.

        Second, I'd look at the conversions of my website. What have you done to improve conversions? What's the bounce rate? Most websites have a 1-3% action ratio. Meaning if you drive 100 people to the website only 1-3 of them will pick up the phone and call. If you work hard on your conversion rate you can get it to 10-20%. Highest we've ever gotten was around 30% from a site that was close to 2%.

        The site conversion goes hand in hand with the phone training. If you increase the conversions of the site, but the phone service sucks it won't do you any good. But when you have awesome conversions on the website and multiply that by awesome phone presence you can completely transform a business.

        Once you've worked on the conversions on the phone and on the website it's now time to look at traffic. Where is the traffic you should be getting? Get the client to spend a few hundred dollars on PPC. That way you can be sure of what keywords are being used to search by their clients. And which ones are more likely to lead to a conversion/phone call. And now you know what to do SEO on.

        I agree with what others have recommended. Use Craigslist, Backpage, banner ads, etc. Do banner ad exchanges with other clients in non-competing fields(i.e. I'll put an ad on my painting site if you put one on your electrician site).
         
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Im betting Marcos is right, they probably suck at closing the incoming calls, and they probably arent asking people "where did you hear about us?", to even know if they are getting leads from your work or not. Maybe their pricing is waay to out there, or their offer isnt competitive. even 5-10 leads per month should result in a sale, if they are talking to the customers right.
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  • Profile picture of the author CageyVet
    It actually sounds like you are confusing SEO with Lead Generation, which is a very common mistake and to take it one step further you are also getting confused about Marketing in general.

    I hate to ask this because it is completely against my way of doing business but did you sell them on ranking them in Google and/or getting traffic to their site (maybe for specific keywords)? If so, then your qualifier for doing a successful job is to either have their site ranking higher (maybe even for specific keywords) and/or proving that they are getting more traffic because of your services. To be blunt but that is what the core of SEO is all about, nothing more....

    Now, if you sold them on the fact that you will get them more customers and/or generate them more leads...then that is a completely different story and from your posts you are not doing that correctly. You need to be way more involved, more in control and doing a lot more if you are looking to help a company with their actual customer acquisition, sales and marketing than just basic SEO. If you are not doing more than just ranking them in Google and sending more traffic to their site then you wasting their time as well as yours and someone that does do more might just come in to take that revenue from you.

    Marcus hits the nail on the head with many of the points he brings up in terms of making sure they are holding up their end of the customer acquisition and conversion side of things.

    If you did sell them on more customers and not just higher rankings plus more traffic then the last thing that I want to say is...for $100 a month, what is the expectation you set with your painter clients? Are they expecting 1, 2, 10, 100 customers a month? If you did not qualify the initial number of the average expected customer/lead growth because of your services, how do you know if you are failing the customer or not? I hope you did not say the dreaded just "MORE" word because that is bad bad bad.

    If you have not done so, you should decide if you are selling just SEO services or sales/marketing services to your clients. There is a huge difference for both you and your clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author payoman
      Originally Posted by CageyVet View Post


      If you did sell them on more customers and not just higher rankings plus more traffic then the last thing that I want to say is...for $100 a month, what is the expectation you set with your painter clients? Are they expecting 1, 2, 10, 100 customers a month? If you did not qualify the initial number of the average expected customer/lead growth because of your services, how do you know if you are failing the customer or not? I hope you did not say the dreaded just "MORE" word because that is bad bad bad.
      I don't EVER assume to set the expectations of exactly how many more clients a customer can get from my services, and from what I have read, neither do most businesses. From what I have seen and found, the tools and resources (ie Adwords Tool and Traffic Estimator Tools) from which you use to base this information is too unreliable.

      I mean, if you could point me in the direction of how I could do this, please by all means I would love to hear it! I have heard people try to say 'with every 100 visitors you should expect X of them call up and Y of them buy', but in my experience, the data is WAY off (when I say way off, I mean it can't account for all those random visitors from other countries, people who don't want to buy, can't buy etc) at least in my area (200k town in Australia).

      Anything to help improve my business which I admit is only 1 year old and still learning, I am happy to investigate and learn.

      You haven't offered me much real advice, mostly just "I hope you haven't done this wrong? Or that wrong? Or this wrong?" I was actually looking for some advice on what to do next, and some people have offered that and I have definitely acted on it.

      My next plan, thanks to some suggestions here, is to modify the website to hopefully produce a higher conversion and to test some adwords campaigns to find more active keywords. But I am definitely open to suggestion always!
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      • Profile picture of the author abbot
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        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        I don't EVER assume to set the expectations of exactly how many more clients a customer can get from my services, and from what I have read, neither do most businesses. From what I have seen and found, the tools and resources (ie Adwords Tool and Traffic Estimator Tools) from which you use to base this information is too unreliable.

        I mean, if you could point me in the direction of how I could do this, please by all means I would love to hear it! I have heard people try to say 'with every 100 visitors you should expect X of them call up and Y of them buy', but in my experience, the data is WAY off (when I say way off, I mean it can't account for all those random visitors from other countries, people who don't want to buy, can't buy etc) at least in my area (200k town in Australia).

        Anything to help improve my business which I admit is only 1 year old and still learning, I am happy to investigate and learn.

        You haven't offered me much real advice, mostly just "I hope you haven't done this wrong? Or that wrong? Or this wrong?" I was actually looking for some advice on what to do next, and some people have offered that and I have definitely acted on it.

        My next plan, thanks to some suggestions here, is to modify the website to hopefully produce a higher conversion and to test some adwords campaigns to find more active keywords. But I am definitely open to suggestion always!

        I will be blunt. Because blunt is what I am.

        We can't walk you through and tell you what to do with YOUR client. YOU positioned yourself as the 'expert' and sold them a service in which they assumed you would in one way or another, make them more money.

        Business owners look at ROI and ROI only. Anyone who tells you other is a liar. No one gives a shit about how much online presence they have, how big their facebook page is, or how many subscribers they have. They care about how much money their business will make and that's it.

        That being said...

        It sounds like you need to do some more keyword research. You should have known that these search terms were not getting any searches BEFORE you even sold them the package. That's bad business on your part and it's your fault. But it's ok, mistakes are good, you will never get better by being perfect.

        If there ARE low/no searches for the desired keywords, then go G+. Get them listed, optimize them, and get some reviews on the listing. Get them to the top.

        Get them on ALL of the review websites (they have been listed in previous posts) Get positive reviews flowing by designing postcards for them to give to their customers prompting them to go to a splash page and select the review site they would like to post their review on. EVERY customer should get a card...

        Be sure to link to the review sites on their website on the testimonials page. Make it appealing to the eye and easy to follow.

        Craigslist is another option and probably a great one. look into it.

        EDDM is another GREAT option. look into it.

        Make sure their website has an email opt-in form and offer a discount for opting in. (check with owner first)

        Create a video with still images and rank it for the main keywords. Takes 10 minutes.

        NOW you should start seeing activity. At this point you can look into ranking them to drive more traffic to your newly created "network". If organic is not working than try PPC. That way they only pay when someone visits the website.

        As I said, we don't know the details but it sounds like the website sucks AND/OR they can't complete the sales on their end.

        Optimize the website and test the results. (you should never be satisfied)

        Get a number and forward it to their phone. Track ALL calls on your end. That way you can see the true conversions. Don't go off what they say...they are not the 'expert'.

        Draw all of this up into a proposal and charge based on your calculations. It shouldn't be cheap, definitely not $100/mo. You can't honestly say that you can show real results at $100/mo...

        Too many people think that offering SEO will turn a business three fold..and that's exactly why real consultants get dogged all the time by the industry..

        There, I told you what I can based on what you provided me. Now go do it
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        • Profile picture of the author maricelu
          On your point about tracking calls from the websiite - I was thinking to use an image file with their numer in big bold and the original number somewhere else, maybe in the footer to make the tracking number be more visible. I've heard using different phone numbers on Google + page and on the website or other directories hurts alot.Do you think it adviceable what I am thinking to do? Oh yes, good info regarding postcards.
          Originally Posted by abbot View Post

          I will be blunt. Because blunt is what I am.

          We can't walk you through and tell you what to do with YOUR client. YOU positioned yourself as the 'expert' and sold them a service in which they assumed you would in one way or another, make them more money.

          Business owners look at ROI and ROI only. Anyone who tells you other is a liar. No one gives a shit about how much online presence they have, how big their facebook page is, or how many subscribers they have. They care about how much money their business will make and that's it.

          That being said...

          It sounds like you need to do some more keyword research. You should have known that these search terms were not getting any searches BEFORE you even sold them the package. That's bad business on your part and it's your fault. But it's ok, mistakes are good, you will never get better by being perfect.

          If there ARE low/no searches for the desired keywords, then go G+. Get them listed, optimize them, and get some reviews on the listing. Get them to the top.

          Get them on ALL of the review websites (they have been listed in previous posts) Get positive reviews flowing by designing postcards for them to give to their customers prompting them to go to a splash page and select the review site they would like to post their review on. EVERY customer should get a card...

          Be sure to link to the review sites on their website on the testimonials page. Make it appealing to the eye and easy to follow.

          Craigslist is another option and probably a great one. look into it.

          EDDM is another GREAT option. look into it.

          Make sure their website has an email opt-in form and offer a discount for opting in. (check with owner first)

          Create a video with still images and rank it for the main keywords. Takes 10 minutes.

          NOW you should start seeing activity. At this point you can look into ranking them to drive more traffic to your newly created "network". If organic is not working than try PPC. That way they only pay when someone visits the website.

          As I said, we don't know the details but it sounds like the website sucks AND/OR they can't complete the sales on their end.

          Optimize the website and test the results. (you should never be satisfied)

          Get a number and forward it to their phone. Track ALL calls on your end. That way you can see the true conversions. Don't go off what they say...they are not the 'expert'.

          Draw all of this up into a proposal and charge based on your calculations. It shouldn't be cheap, definitely not $100/mo. You can't honestly say that you can show real results at $100/mo...

          Too many people think that offering SEO will turn a business three fold..and that's exactly why real consultants get dogged all the time by the industry..

          There, I told you what I can based on what you provided me. Now go do it
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          I have no signature.

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      • Profile picture of the author CageyVet
        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        I don't EVER assume to set the expectations of exactly how many more clients a customer can get from my services, and from what I have read, neither do most businesses. From what I have seen and found, the tools and resources (ie Adwords Tool and Traffic Estimator Tools) from which you use to base this information is too unreliable.

        I mean, if you could point me in the direction of how I could do this, please by all means I would love to hear it! I have heard people try to say 'with every 100 visitors you should expect X of them call up and Y of them buy', but in my experience, the data is WAY off (when I say way off, I mean it can't account for all those random visitors from other countries, people who don't want to buy, can't buy etc) at least in my area (200k town in Australia).

        Anything to help improve my business which I admit is only 1 year old and still learning, I am happy to investigate and learn.

        You haven't offered me much real advice, mostly just "I hope you haven't done this wrong? Or that wrong? Or this wrong?" I was actually looking for some advice on what to do next, and some people have offered that and I have definitely acted on it.

        My next plan, thanks to some suggestions here, is to modify the website to hopefully produce a higher conversion and to test some adwords campaigns to find more active keywords. But I am definitely open to suggestion always!
        Ok, I admit that all of my statements are "I hope you are not doing X". That is because you said "I have other clients on SEO services who are doing very well" which clearly means to me that you are selling Search Engine Optimization Services to these Painters. All the statements that I made were directed to the fact that if you are doing them, then you are confused as to the difference between SEO services and Internet Marketing/Lead Gen services. So I will word this post differently so that I may attempt to help you out in your situation because until it is understood what you are actually trying to do for your clients, then it is hard to specifically help you with your problems.

        In the contract that they signed with you, what do you agree to provide them for their $100 a month?

        Search Engine Ranking Increase
        More Traffic
        More Customers
        More Leads
        A certain amount of hours worked a month doing X
        etc etc etc

        From what I can tell, you are doing Search Engine Ranking Increase and More Traffic because you stated that one painter is fine with your work because he is on page 1. I am guessing that is the service you sold him, rankings which lead if done on the the right keywords leads to more traffic. The other painter is not happy because he has not gotten a single job from your services. Well if your services are to provide better rankings and more traffic, then him getting more jobs is not your problem and that client needs to be set straight with the actual services that you are providing him. To me, if the client is being a hassle, complaining, not understanding what you are providing him....then it is time to drop the client for one that will be happy with your services.

        If you are just having trouble sending more traffic to the clients page because of lower search volume, then there are a ton of things that you can do to up that traffic volume.

        If you are looking to move from SEO services into Internet Marketing/Lead Gen services, then there is alot people on this forum can help you with.

        Since you have only been doing this for a year, some of the problem with people answering you properly might be the way you are coming across with the words you are using, since as I mentioned...your first post seemed confusing between SEO services and Marketing Services.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
    Its time to up your game now Payoman.

    You been at this a year now and have basically been just a web designer
    who has learned some 1st grade seo and pretending to be a REAL MARKETER

    You can continue to hustle up web designs and make a living or you
    can now get serious, get responsible, and get some knowledge in you
    and create a business that puts you and your clients over the top.

    Keep at it Payo!
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    • Profile picture of the author payoman
      Originally Posted by Eddie Spangler View Post

      Its time to up your game now Payoman.

      You been at this a year now and have basically been just a web designer
      who has learned some 1st grade seo and pretending to be a REAL MARKETER

      You can continue to hustle up web designs and make a living or you
      can now get serious, get responsible, and get some knowledge in you
      and create a business that puts you and your clients over the top.

      Keep at it Payo!
      Thanks for the backhanded pep talk. /sarcasm off

      I am only human. I don't have a mentor watching over my shoulder teaching me the intricate details of marketing. I never attempted to 'pretend to be a REAL MARKETER' as you put it. Even in my free product in my sig, I admit to being new and really only relaying my experience thus far. I tell all my clients that my business is new. I tell them I will work for free if they are dissatisfied. I actively search for solutions to problems, as I am doing now.

      It's strange that in this thread, I feel like I'm being somewhat attacked, which really is a first for the Warrior Forum, since 90% of the time I see other posters being helped without ridicule.

      And to address abbot's post, in particular this : "We can't walk you through and tell you what to do with YOUR client. YOU positioned yourself as the 'expert' and sold them a service in which they assumed you would in one way or another, make them more money. "

      Isn't this forum about helping others with their offline marketing? Saying 'we can't help' (kind of ironic in that the rest of your post is indeed very helpful) seems strange considering that's what I thought was the goal of this forum.

      Anyway, all that aside, thanks again for those who have posted their helpful replies and to give an update, I had a meeting with the client and we are exploring many of the avenues mentioned in this thread and more. Cheers.

      EDIT : I think there might have been a miscommunication. When I said 'You have not offered any advice besides what not to do', I was only referring to the poster 'CageyVet'. Sorry for the confusion if that is indeed the case.
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      • Profile picture of the author abbot
        Banned
        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        Thanks for the backhanded pep talk. /sarcasm off

        I am only human. I don't have a mentor watching over my shoulder teaching me the intricate details of marketing. I never attempted to 'pretend to be a REAL MARKETER' as you put it. Even in my free product in my sig, I admit to being new and really only relaying my experience thus far. I tell all my clients that my business is new. I tell them I will work for free if they are dissatisfied. I actively search for solutions to problems, as I am doing now.

        It's strange that in this thread, I feel like I'm being somewhat attacked, which really is a first for the Warrior Forum, since 90% of the time I see other posters being helped without ridicule.

        And to address abbot's post, in particular this : "We can't walk you through and tell you what to do with YOUR client. YOU positioned yourself as the 'expert' and sold them a service in which they assumed you would in one way or another, make them more money. "

        Isn't this forum about helping others with their offline marketing? Saying 'we can't help' (kind of ironic in that the rest of your post is indeed very helpful) seems strange considering that's what I thought was the goal of this forum.

        Anyway, all that aside, thanks again for those who have posted their helpful replies and to give an update, I had a meeting with the client and we are exploring many of the avenues mentioned in this thread and more. Cheers.

        EDIT : I think there might have been a miscommunication. When I said 'You have not offered any advice besides what not to do', I was only referring to the poster 'CageyVet'. Sorry for the confusion if that is indeed the case.
        No one is attacking you. What I see is a group of knowledgeable individuals that are simply being forward with you. If you ask me a question, I give you an answer. I could care less if you like that answer or not. I feel like that's what is happening here in this thread. There is a lot of good information in this thread that can help you pull yourself out of the water with this client. I suggest you take any advice given and run with it.

        Regarding this;

        And to address abbot's post, in particular this : "We can't walk you through and tell you what to do with YOUR client. YOU positioned yourself as the 'expert' and sold them a service in which they assumed you would in one way or another, make them more money. "

        Isn't this forum about helping others with their offline marketing? Saying 'we can't help' (kind of ironic in that the rest of your post is indeed very helpful) seems strange considering that's what I thought was the goal of this forum.
        Notice the two bolded phrases. There is your answer. Two completely different phrases with two completely different meanings.

        You will soon learn that the heart of marketing is all about testing. It's just too hard to tell you exactly what will work and what will not. We don't know the details. There is help all over this forum. You're a big boy now, you don't need to be spoonfed. If you get stuck, find a way out. There is a way out you just have to test until you find the way.

        TRUST ME you will learn so much more if you teach yourself. You will be a much better marketer.
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        • Profile picture of the author payoman
          Originally Posted by abbot View Post

          No one is attacking you. What I see is a group of knowledgeable individuals that are simply being forward with you. If you ask me a question, I give you an answer. I could care less if you like that answer or not. I feel like that's what is happening here in this thread. There is a lot of good information in this thread that can help you pull yourself out of the water with this client. I suggest you take any advice given and run with it.

          Regarding this;



          Notice the two bolded phrases. There is your answer. Two completely different phrases with two completely different meanings.

          You will soon learn that the heart of marketing is all about testing. It's just too hard to tell you exactly what will work and what will not. We don't know the details. There is help all over this forum. You're a big boy now, you don't need to be spoonfed. If you get stuck, find a way out. There is a way out you just have to test until you find the way.

          TRUST ME you will learn so much more if you teach yourself. You will be a much better marketer.
          Seems you are arguing semantics... 'Help' vs 'Walk through'? I repeatedly stated that most of the other posters delivered the information that IS useful in my situation. I never expected anything more.

          You are the only one making a big deal out of the semantics of my question (And it IS a big deal when you imply I am unappreciative of the advice being given. I wouldn't be where I am today without the advice of this forum and it's members).

          "You're a big boy now, you don't need to be spoonfed."

          Obnoxious and condescending. How about you 'bold' my request to be spoonfed in any of my previous posts?

          I repeatedly stated that I was looking for advice, not a 'cure all', 'spoonfed', 'hand holding walk through' or whatever other negative terms you want to use for it. I got that and I am very appreciative.
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          • Profile picture of the author cshilling22
            Originally Posted by payoman View Post

            Seems you are arguing semantics... 'Help' vs 'Walk through'? I repeatedly stated that most of the other posters delivered the information that IS useful in my situation. I never expected anything more.

            You are the only one making a big deal out of the semantics of my question (And it IS a big deal when you imply I am unappreciative of the advice being given. I wouldn't be where I am today without the advice of this forum and it's members).

            "You're a big boy now, you don't need to be spoonfed."

            Obnoxious and condescending. How about you 'bold' my request to be spoonfed in any of my previous posts?

            I repeatedly stated that I was looking for advice, not a 'cure all', 'spoonfed', 'hand holding walk through' or whatever other negative terms you want to use for it. I got that and I am very appreciative.
            I wouldn't let the thread continue to break down by continuing to go back and forth, a lot of people have offered advice (including myself) and you would be better served acknowledging that and contributing to the thread so that everyone can benefit.
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          • Profile picture of the author taranisman
            Something that "SEO Guys" overlook sometimes, which has already been mentioned in this thread, is that SEO is not all it takes to give an offline business a successful ROI.

            For ANY offline business, I believe that its a puzzle and SEO is just one piece. The two most important things are SEO and your reputation.

            Where does your website rank, and what are people saying about you?

            You really need to find a way to not only get their site ranked, but also get them reviews.

            Positive citations.

            Of course there are so many options for you to sell them on. SEO, social media marketing, reputation management (my favorite), new website, mobile website, mobile app, mobile SEO...etc.

            It can be overwhelming when you think of all the options that are really available for you to offer them.

            What you need to do is find out exactly what their issue is.

            Where does the pain derive from?

            Figure that out and then find a way to solve their problem.

            If you don't know how do build a mobile site, and they tell you that's what they want, then learn how to do it or find someone on the WF who does.

            Never turn away business. You can find someone to do pretty much anything your client will need in here. Good luck.
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          • Profile picture of the author abbot
            Banned
            Originally Posted by payoman View Post

            Seems you are arguing semantics... 'Help' vs 'Walk through'? I repeatedly stated that most of the other posters delivered the information that IS useful in my situation. I never expected anything more.

            You are the only one making a big deal out of the semantics of my question (And it IS a big deal when you imply I am unappreciative of the advice being given. I wouldn't be where I am today without the advice of this forum and it's members).

            "You're a big boy now, you don't need to be spoonfed."

            Obnoxious and condescending. How about you 'bold' my request to be spoonfed in any of my previous posts?

            I repeatedly stated that I was looking for advice, not a 'cure all', 'spoonfed', 'hand holding walk through' or whatever other negative terms you want to use for it. I got that and I am very appreciative.
            Don't start firing back at me buddy. I'm trying to help you. But I can see your ego is definitely a priority of yours.

            You asked for help...I HELPED. What I gave you is gold. The only variable factor is when you can see that for yourself.

            The exact formula I gave you is the basics of what my company uses to produce millions in new sales every year between our clients.

            What I have told you is nothing but the truth. It's reality. Now you have two choices...you can either take what I have given you and run with it. OR you can sit here and pick apart my posts and imply that I'm badgering you. Either way I don't care.

            I wish you, your business, and your clients luck.
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      • Profile picture of the author flnz400
        It's because most of the people around here don't and can't do what you're trying to do...they only sell info products or complimentary services that "teach" you god knows what.

        To get to the bottom of this, you need to spend some money, plain and simple.

        First, fire up an Adwords campaign. Google the details on what I'm about to brief you on: use tight keywords, both non local and local (geo modifier included ie- dentist Houston tx), search betwork only, no mobile devices unless youre ina niche like locksmiths, radius targetted for whatever would be an acceptable service area (typically 25-50 mi radius from central zip code) bid high cpc, let it run for a week if there isn't much traffic, write horrible ads if you wanna save money. Monitor the impressions, and sort greatest to least when finished. Those are your primary seo targets, the others will become secondaries.

        You need to get your on page right... None of this on page SEO plugin bullshit. They'll have you over optimizing by adding naked long tail keywords as H tags sprinkled in the content. Keyword in the title, keyword in the meta desc. (Twice if workable), and content for humans that converts. Emd's still get the boost if you're careful with them.

        Phone number, phone number, phone number in the title tags. Can't stress this enough. Ou can get calls without someone even opening the damn site. Use a call tracking number to monitor leads during testing. Call fire is cheap. Ifbyphone is a more advanced option.

        Finally, build the site to sell. Compelling content, good offers (free loss leaders, estimates, whatever), and even better CTA's. give reasons why they should call for an estimate, everyone says that. Stand out. Then refine that some more, you'll be able to do more with less... Leads that is.

        Once you get some results, multiply your exposure for more leverage. Build another site in the same niche with different branding. Repeat the same steps that worked before. (This has a saturation point, but when people call around for estimates and they get the same service provider multiple times, psychologically this normally has a positive connotation)

        There's all kinds of local SEO things you branch out on- citations, ranking parasites to push competitors out of the SERPS, rich snippets and authorship (these will increase ctr btw if no other competitors have it synced), and on and on. There plenty of good information out there on local SEO stuff.

        Honestly, I never post info like this because most of these threads are keyboard jockeys dicking each other around. I'm only doing it because I've seen some of your threads in the past and you seem vigilant. At one point inspirational with the cold calling, as I'm great at doing client work but suck at consistently prospecting.

        If you need more help let me know.


        Originally Posted by payoman View Post

        Thanks for the backhanded pep talk. /sarcasm off

        I am only human. I don't have a mentor watching over my shoulder teaching me the intricate details of marketing. I never attempted to 'pretend to be a REAL MARKETER' as you put it. Even in my free product in my sig, I admit to being new and really only relaying my experience thus far. I tell all my clients that my business is new. I tell them I will work for free if they are dissatisfied. I actively search for solutions to problems, as I am doing now.

        It's strange that in this thread, I feel like I'm being somewhat attacked, which really is a first for the Warrior Forum, since 90% of the time I see other posters being helped without ridicule.

        And to address abbot's post, in particular this : "We can't walk you through and tell you what to do with YOUR client. YOU positioned yourself as the 'expert' and sold them a service in which they assumed you would in one way or another, make them more money. "

        Isn't this forum about helping others with their offline marketing? Saying 'we can't help' (kind of ironic in that the rest of your post is indeed very helpful) seems strange considering that's what I thought was the goal of this forum.

        Anyway, all that aside, thanks again for those who have posted their helpful replies and to give an update, I had a meeting with the client and we are exploring many of the avenues mentioned in this thread and more. Cheers.

        EDIT : I think there might have been a miscommunication. When I said 'You have not offered any advice besides what not to do', I was only referring to the poster 'CageyVet'. Sorry for the confusion if that is indeed the case.
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        • Profile picture of the author Eddie Spangler
          Originally Posted by flnz400 View Post


          Honestly, I never post info like this because most of these threads are keyboard jockeys dicking each other around.

          If you need more help let me know.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    What does the Google keyword tool tell you about the keywords surrounding painters /locality ?

    The longer tails are often the buyers search terms , more specific, more defined, closer to splashing the cash, yes the numbers are far lower, but the conversions are often better .
    People searching for 'painter locality' are in the early thinking stages , people searching for ' fixed ceiling painter' are closer to spendiong their money, those searchign for ' fixed ceiling painter specialising in XYZ' are hot conversions in the making .

    Isnt it better to be found by 6 ready and immediately eager to buy needy souls than 230 tyre kickers 'we are thinking about it but will probably spend the money on sex drugs and rockin roll' types ?.

    whilst it isn't the answer to everything, in Google keywords tool (or similar) look at the CPC in the adwords column in the results, if people are spending more on certain keyphrases, unless they're idiots or loaded, that should suggest those phrases bring in real fee paying clients, so you may want to focus more on them ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    I think the fundamental mistake is in thinking SEO is the be all, cure all. If you're doing marketing for a home painting business, then that could mean participating in home expos, or producing your own, having an open house, use direct mail... and if the business owner waves you off and says "I can't afford that" then rent them a billboard they can wear walking up and down the street for $100 because you can't help them otherwise.
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  • Profile picture of the author ZRIM
    Hi Payoman -- I think your biggest problem is apparently you aren't tracking leads your work may or may not have generated. I think you need to know how much traffic has increased, and even better, how many additional leads have been generated on the phone or opt-in forms on the site. If you have that info, you can confidently tell your client what you have done. If you deliver the leads, but no sales happened, then that's a sales issue which you can offer to help him with as well. I do think it's important to be clear with client up front that you are going to deliver traffic and leads but taking leads to sales is up to him -- UNLESS -- you also want to be involved in that.

    Of course at $100 a month you are not charging enough to be able to do SEO and tracking work -- but, I think that's the bare minimum service that can be provided. You've got to do some SEO work obviously, but you've also got to be able to track it somehow.

    OK, but I have question for Abbot. You said

    "Get a number and forward it to their phone. Track ALL calls on your end. That way you can see the true conversions. Don't go off what they say...they are not the 'expert'."

    I LOVE this idea. But, how do you do that and ensure that dropping their phone number from the website won't affect the NAP citations -- google local/maps?

    I am struggling with this issue myself. I want to track phone calls, but don't want to harm the local/maps listings..
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  • Profile picture of the author ferrazzo75
    Try charging at least 1k and if you can't come up with a marketing plan on your own just google or search this forum for what others are doing. Also make sure you use diff keywords for both your clients! This way your not battling yourself for top spot. Good Luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mwind076
    I'm just going to agree and add another point to the "he's probably not closing them or knows how to handle the calls he is getting" column.

    Just a few things, not sure if they were mentioned because LOTS of good advice is here.

    1) I'd ask how many replies he has gotten from your efforts (whether he closed them or not).
    2) I'd ask how he knows they came from you (and I'd track them myself so you can show him the numbers).
    3) I'd ask why they aren't closing (from his point of view). I'd then tread carefully and suggest he work with someone to train his sales people or him.

    Look, if he came to you in the first place, or signed with you, it was most likely because he felt he needed more business and what he was doing wasn't working that great. If that is the case, then what he was doing before you got with him may still be the issue. maybe he sucks at his own pricing and sales...that's not your issue. If he's getting the traffic, that was your job.

    It's an opportunity for you to further help him with marketing (if you offer that or can) to train him or look into his sales practices. He may not welcome it though, so beware. People don't like being told "it's not me, it's you."

    Oh, and I agree with those that say you are charging too little...have some faith in yourself and you'll catch bigger fish.
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