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Dealing with never ending Website clients and how to solve it.

by swilliams09
26 replies
Every website client of mine tends to be a long drawn out never ending process. They need to add one more thing. They want to change the text, they have a different picture they want to use. They forgot a paragraph in the bio. It goes on and on. This was pissing me off until I realized one thing. This happens because I ALLOW IT.

I'm the professional here. It's my job to make sure the client gives me the proper materials. Here's what I've done to solve that problem. I stop working. Or to be more precise, I don't start working. I do anything until they have handed me all of the proper materials for their website and we have checked them all against our list. Then and only then do I start work on their project. And any changes in the middle of the job I charge for by the hour and will not complete those new changes until the first contract is complete.

Saying no to my customers, telling them that my time is valuable and charging for extras has lost me 1 or 2 clients who were used to me bending over backwards. But with my new clients, it has set proper boundaries and they respect my time. Don't be afraid to lay down the rules about how you work, because if you don't have rules then the client will try to call the shots and you will find yourself on the short end of the stick. Good luck!
#clients #dealing #ending #solve #website
  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Best thing to do is set up an Up Front Contract before taking their money.

    "You get 3 revisions included with this investment. After that, it's $200 per hour."

    You are absolutely correct, you allow it; and if we don't tell our clients they can't do something, can we get upset when they do it?
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  • Profile picture of the author KarileeO
    Yeah, I definitely need to improve further in this area, and it's entirely my own fault.

    I keep trying to get more specific about what's included, but I'm still doing custom work for each client. I'm finding I need to communicate clearly "Okay, I've revised those sliders twice now, and its quite time consuming. Please be clear on what you want in this next revision, because after that I'm going to have to charge you for additional hours."
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew H
    One of my first clients was the worst at this. The number one thing you need to outline in your contract is: scope creep (detail everything that's included), and the number of revisions.

    The industry standard for revisions is somewhere between 3-5. What you are dealing with right now is the same thing every freelancer has had to deal with. Just make sure you have these details in the contract and your good.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dylan Doyle
    I know the feeling. Can you do this, can you just change that, can you add a pic there?

    It can be a right pain in the arse but like you said, it's best to set proper boundaries right from the start. At least this way everyone knows what to expect!
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  • Profile picture of the author MaxwellB
    Also we get paid everything in advance so if they do take long to get back to us or approve things or get us content we're paid and it's on them.
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    • Profile picture of the author CreekChub
      I have a feeling that your (ex) clients are the ones I pick up - no offense. Of course, there are the nightmare clients that can't be satisfied, and those need to be dropped like a bad habit - as soon as possible.

      Mostly though, in my experience (let's say roughly 50 clients over the course of about 7 months) folks just aren't that hard to get along with. I pitch myself as the "internet guy" who doesn't tell you - 5 pages and 3 graphics with 2 logo revisions and 4 copy revisions for $XXX, 8 pages and 7 graphics and 3 logo revisions for $XXXX, etc.

      I'm "the expert". I take the time to sit down and talk with folks about what they want, what they do, how they do it. Who is their market? What advertising have they done. Did it work, or not? Which parts worked? Who do you actually enjoy doing business with? That sort of thing. My initial meetings generally take 1-2 hours. Am I efficient? Nope. Am I particularly good at that part of it? Not at all. I'm not slick, and I'm not much of a typical salesman. I just listen.

      Maybe I've just been lucky, but I don't get very many of the "problem" clients with this approach. Some, sure. I'm not a genius here. I get rid of them as soon as I can without creating a bad vibe.

      BUT - I collect an ongoing monthly fee for SEOLEADGENERATIONGRAPHICDESIGNMARKETING
      GOOGLE+FACEBOOKTWITTEROUTSTANDINGYOUTUBE
      VIDEOS...

      And the list goes on. I'm "their marketing guy". Maybe I'm just not good looking enough, or quick enough with snappy comebacks, but I don't think I would get to be that guy if I didn't appear to be bending over backwards to help them out. In reality, because I am actually decent at what I do, I make my clients money and they pay me. Once the "hard"work is done initially, things tend to go on autopilot for the most part.

      Not completely, of course - I don't push a button and collect checks. If I can spend an hour or two in a month on a particular client, charge them $400, and have them love me because I'm making them money - then it works for me.

      There is no "right" way, so I'm not knocking you. We've all felt those same frustrations. Personally though, I just roll with it 7 times out of 10 because I know the relationship is going to pay me back in spades. Just a thought.

      EDIT: For what its worth, I'm mostly dealing with small businesses. My average client is in the $750K to $5MIL range for annual sales. New site designs (sharp stuff - well done graphics and css work on wordpress themes) start at $1875 and average around $3K with a big one thrown in every now and then. Ongoing monthly "stuff" starts at $250 and goes up (quickly) from there. I'm not generally dealing with bait shop owners, but I haven't collected any checks from Nike either.
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      • Profile picture of the author swilliams09
        Originally Posted by CreekChub View Post

        EDIT: For what its worth, I'm mostly dealing with small businesses. My average client is in the $750K to $5MIL range for annual sales. New site designs (sharp stuff - well done graphics and css work on wordpress themes) start at $1875 and average around $3K with a big one thrown in every now and then. Ongoing monthly "stuff" starts at $250 and goes up (quickly) from there. I'm not generally dealing with bait shop owners, but I haven't collected any checks from Nike either.
        There's the other half of the equation. Most of my early clients were either just starting in business or had been puttering along with a very small business. And my prices were no where near where they needed to be. That is a recipe for frustration. If my prices were what they were now, it would be less of an issue. I find that the cheaper the job the stricter I have to be with the client.

        Now with my current crop of clients, I'm starting to fall more into the "marketing guy" catagory. I only have 3 at the moment mainly from word of mouth. They saw me make the first guy money and now they want me to help them do the same. And I'm pricing my work accordingly which they don't have a problem with.
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        • Profile picture of the author CreekChub
          Originally Posted by swilliams09 View Post

          There's the other half of the equation. Most of my early clients were either just starting in business or had been puttering along with a very small business. And my prices were no where near where they needed to be. That is a recipe for frustration. If my prices were what they were now, it would be less of an issue. I find that the cheaper the job the stricter I have to be with the client.

          Now with my current crop of clients, I'm starting to fall more into the "marketing guy" catagory. I only have 3 at the moment mainly from word of mouth. They saw me make the first guy money and now they want me to help them do the same. And I'm pricing my work accordingly which they don't have a problem with.
          There it is. If this stuff were easy, everyone would do it. It certainly isn't hard, from the perspective of, say, laying bricks for a living. Been there, done that. You just have to figure things out, and learn the game. Trust me - I started out with the $599 sites that guys hawk on here all of the time. Pride wouldn't let me spit out crap websites though, and I ended up getting buried.

          I finally realized that if I were going to make money doing this and be happy, prices had to go up. Way up. I was dumbfounded when people just started saying yes. It was almost easier selling the $2-3K and up sites, along with corresponding monthly fees. At $600 a pop, legit business owners don't take you seriously. Many of my clients have $5K/mo. electric bills. Selling a $600 product as something that is going to "change their lives" gets the stink eye - and rightfully so.

          Anyway, the rest of the guys hit the nail on the head. Charge enough that you're happy doing the work. Resentment benefits no one.
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          • Profile picture of the author RimaNaj2011
            You need to put this stuff specifically in the contract. But honestly, after the site is done and I have the money, if they want changes that don't require extensive work, who cares? Like changing text, moving images, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author aksports2003
    Originally Posted by swilliams09 View Post

    Every website client of mine tends to be a long drawn out never ending process. They need to add one more thing. They want to change the text, they have a different picture they want to use. They forgot a paragraph in the bio. It goes on and on. This was pissing me off until I realized one thing. This happens because I ALLOW IT.

    I'm the professional here. It's my job to make sure the client gives me the proper materials. Here's what I've done to solve that problem. I stop working. Or to be more precise, I don't start working. I do anything until they have handed me all of the proper materials for their website and we have checked them all against our list. Then and only then do I start work on their project. And any changes in the middle of the job I charge for by the hour and will not complete those new changes until the first contract is complete.

    Saying no to my customers, telling them that my time is valuable and charging for extras has lost me 1 or 2 clients who were used to me bending over backwards. But with my new clients, it has set proper boundaries and they respect my time. Don't be afraid to lay down the rules about how you work, because if you don't have rules then the client will try to call the shots and you will find yourself on the short end of the stick. Good luck!
    This is a great insight. Being too good or lenient and always tending to what your client needs you to do can end up backfiring on you. You need to set the rules first and let them know that you're the one running the show and not the other way around.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rendition
    Best thing to do is set up an Up Front Contract before taking their money.
    I agree, include a "support guarantee" that goes over your support. E.g...

    SUPPORT GUARANTEE
    -Simple clarifying questions will be answered free of charge.
    -Support for changes on a final delivered design will be given in terms of small changes. Some color changes, some button changes, etc. Post-delivery no more than 3 revisions of this nature will be made free of charge unless the issue relates to functionality bugs.
    -We offer up to two hours of free training to help self managed customers get used to their content management system. Outside of this, further assistance on content management will be charged (e.g. if you need us to go in and make updates for you post-training)
    -Major graphical or functional changes, or changes outside of the support guarantee will be charged at a flat fee for every change made. What constitutes a "major" graphical or functional change is at our discretion.
    Also include turnaround policy in the contract and make sure its lenient and not too short. As was said before don't take their money till they agree to it. And don't start work on the project until its agreed and a down payment is made. Don't price too low, leave a nice big buffer.
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  • Profile picture of the author SarahZT
    Originally Posted by swilliams09 View Post

    Every website client of mine tends to be a long drawn out never ending process. They need to add one more thing. They want to change the text, they have a different picture they want to use. They forgot a paragraph in the bio. It goes on and on. This was pissing me off until I realized one thing. This happens because I ALLOW IT.

    I'm the professional here. It's my job to make sure the client gives me the proper materials. Here's what I've done to solve that problem. I stop working. Or to be more precise, I don't start working. I do anything until they have handed me all of the proper materials for their website and we have checked them all against our list. Then and only then do I start work on their project. And any changes in the middle of the job I charge for by the hour and will not complete those new changes until the first contract is complete.

    Saying no to my customers, telling them that my time is valuable and charging for extras has lost me 1 or 2 clients who were used to me bending over backwards. But with my new clients, it has set proper boundaries and they respect my time. Don't be afraid to lay down the rules about how you work, because if you don't have rules then the client will try to call the shots and you will find yourself on the short end of the stick. Good luck!
    This is so true! Besides affiliate marketing I have recently taken on some offline clients to mix up and diversify my income and I'm starting to regret it because of similar experiences. Clients basically thinking that have permission to bleed the life out of you.

    But that's just it... they think they have permission to do so, because I give it to them! I am an enabler I guess and this is something I am struggling with. I have to be more assertive and set definite boundaries. Will see how it goes!!
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    I kind of look at it differently - though I definitely see where you are coming from.

    I think this has to do with your rates, more than it does the customers needs. For me, an accurate way to know I didn't charge enough for something is when I am getting irritated at doing that thing.

    It is SO important to charge enough that you feel good about the work you are doing. If you don't charge enough, your irritation threshold is much lower.

    I personally will keep helping a client until they are happy. I can do this because I charge enough to make it worth my time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      I kind of look at it differently - though I definitely see where you are coming from.

      I think this has to do with your rates, more than it does the customers needs. For me, an accurate way to know I didn't charge enough for something is when I am getting irritated at doing that thing.

      It is SO important to charge enough that you feel good about the work you are doing. If you don't charge enough, your irritation threshold is much lower.

      I personally will keep helping a client until they are happy. I can do this because I charge enough to make it worth my time.
      Your bolded sentence is key. This all goes back to your self-esteem. Price goes back to your self-esteem. If you take on a client who pays you half of what you believe you deserve for doing the work, you're always going to resent them--and whose fault is it?

      Same for the unending revisions. Whether it's copy or web design or something else, you have to feel good about doing it. Note how this is 100% to do with YOU, and 0% to do with your client. Them's YOUR rules.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mohsin Rasool
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      I kind of look at it differently - though I definitely see where you are coming from.

      I think this has to do with your rates, more than it does the customers needs. For me, an accurate way to know I didn't charge enough for something is when I am getting irritated at doing that thing.

      It is SO important to charge enough that you feel good about the work you are doing. If you don't charge enough, your irritation threshold is much lower.

      I personally will keep helping a client until they are happy. I can do this because I charge enough to make it worth my time.

      Exactly, it has happened with me too! Less I charge in the start, sooner I start to wish to end/finish this project and any unexpected changes and revisions make me ill!!!

      We need to have good pricing strategy for that fixed work and for unexpected revisions.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    It's funny, when I am working with someone to buy something from them, and the price is too low I say "Are you SURE this price is high enough? I wan't you to be satisfied with what I pay you so you do your highest quality work and feel good about it."

    When people try to haggle over price, they are shooting themselves in the foot. This isn't like buying a car. If someone is trying to cut my price I simply say "Well, if I lower the price any more than this, I wont feel good about doing the work. And I don't do any work unless it is my very best. A lower price is not in your best interest."
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    • Profile picture of the author sodomojo
      Good article on it. They call it 'scope creep'.

      5 Steps to Preventing Scope Creep (and Still Keeping Your Clients Happy)
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by Dan McCoy View Post

      When people try to haggle over price, they are shooting themselves in the foot. This isn't like buying a car. If someone is trying to cut my price I simply say "Well, if I lower the price any more than this, I wont feel good about doing the work. And I don't do any work unless it is my very best. A lower price is not in your best interest."
      This is great, Dan.

      Joe Mobley
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  • Profile picture of the author WeavingThoughts
    Same problem here. Charging more seems the only option.
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  • Profile picture of the author xlfutur1
    Thankfully I haven't had this problem, and I'm not really sure why. Just luck of the draw I guess. Its a matter of just invoicing for the time if the requests get ridiculous. I usually find myself dragging clients along trying to improve their marketing. Half the time I feel like I care more about their business than they do! I've definitely learned that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make em drink.
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  • Profile picture of the author rbecklund
    This a problem for anyone doing website design. As you progress you figure out ways to deal with it, whether it's included in the SOW or just raising your prices so you don't feel taken advantage of.

    The deal is that this is going to happen sometimes. Some clients are so easy to deal with and others aren't. We have learned to try to stay away from jobs that raise red flags for a number of reasons. We used to take anything and it sucked at times.
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  • Profile picture of the author benbro
    Very well said SW. Thing is that all it really takes is two or three of these types of clients to totally throw your entire offline biz off balance and once you get beyond that number, you'll be just dying to give away your whole biz.

    So definitely heed SW's words, it will save you a lot of headaches.
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  • Profile picture of the author stewane
    You are preaching to the choir. I HAD web design side projects. It was the biggest headache ever. I QUIT that..now I'm better at lead generation that doesn't piss me off.
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  • Profile picture of the author ItsmeChris
    Haha! you're right Stewane. Lead Generation is really easy task and yeah headache free!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Seth Godin's blog entry today is perfect for this thread.

    "Avoiding the custom bully

    Here's the thing: no matter how much you paid for your ticket, you never bother to even try bullying the conductor or the gate agent to get your train or plane to leave a few minutes later.

    It leaves when it leaves, that's the deal.

    Part of the challenge of selling custom work is that it sometimes seems that everything is up for grabs. You should stay up all night for a week. You should rearrange the orchids in order of smell, because even though it's not in the spec, hey, that would be good service, and we are paying a lot...

    Promising perfect is actually not nearly as useful as promising what the rules are.

    Boundaries eliminate the temptation to bully. State them early and often and don't alter them and believe it or not, the client will be happier as well. They didn't sign up to ruin your life. They signed up to get the most they could from you and your team, and the limits are the limits."
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    • Profile picture of the author stewane
      @Jason that is a great point regarding boundary rules, the problem that most of us face including me is to catch ALL the boundaries before you start working - when I used to dabble in webdesign I didn't limit the revisions so I had a nightmare of a client who had me running around, I couldn't modify the need to limit the page designs.

      I should have done more research! Bu I was really trying to help partly because he was a friend of a friend. You do learn as you go, but learning is so damn painful. In the end, after all that work, the "ahole" had the nerve to let me go because I didn't respond to his email when I told him I was sick and out for a while.

      The crazy thing is that you can tell which clients are going to be a problem, but you say to your self "I can serve 'em". Right of the bat I could tell this guy was a type A personality; trying to control everything; but I still decided to take him on at a favorable price.

      I was even doing SEO for him. The crazy thing now is that my personal directory for all his keywords are now outranking his site - of course, I'm not stupid enough to link to his ! Let's see when "real" SEOs tell him $2,000 down and $1,000 per month..lol
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