We seem to be going backwards lately

27 replies
This subforum isn't headed in the right direction of late.

What should I charge?

How should I structure my offer?

Should I work for free?


And then the opinions come rushing in. "Higher!" "Lower." "In between!"

First of all...

You can find someone to pay just about whatever price you set--as long as you are willing to sort and invest the time to find this person.

Be very, very careful who you choose as your first client(s). Because

Second...

You get typecast according to what you've done.

Spend your time doing $500 websites, and you will find it very difficult to transition to (or find) a $10,000 website client.

You will literally program yourself to find and do business at the level you feel comfortable. You will literally program yourself to unconsciously ignore opportunities that don't fit that profile--and you'll reinforce those bad beliefs by giving yourself negative self-talk that says, "No way. I can't do that. Nobody is doing that. They're all liars."

And this leads to

Third...

It's 99.9% headtrash.

The stories you carry around in your head about yourself determine almost everything that happens to you. The greeks said "Character determines fate." You determine the kind of client you get and the work you do by the headtrash you have.

The 0.1% is technical ability. Well that can always be learned or outsourced.


So quit making up stories about why you "can't." Stop wasting your time with imaginary package rundowns the relevance of which will vaporize the moment you actually get in front of a prospect.

Get out there and start having conversations with decision makers. Find out what's really going on in their world. Match up what you can do (or can have done) with what they need. Figure out how much that's worth, then charge it. Not many threads about doing this lately. Instead, people are standing around asking the same questions...and getting nowhere. Concern yourself less about technical know-how and more about talking to prospects, and you will make sales. That's the direction to move in.
#backwards #jason kanigan
  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    I'd like to think it's because people learn some skills, then they get too busy to post here. So the new crop of members are newbies asking the same questions as the last graduating class.

    Those of us who just enjoy coming here and helping out get to help a new crop of marketers!
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    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kunle Olomofe
    There's never anything new under the sun. If folks keep asking the same qs its probly cos those asking jst discovered that particular challenge and need answers, there was a time when everyone dishing out great advice was once green horned and confused too

    If they seem to be asking the wrong questions (tho I think some are useful qs) that's part of being green

    Everytime someone asks those questions a group of new people see the answers given to them and benefit one way or the other from the answers given, so while I can understand some of the frustration there's really nothing wrong with them asking if its done innocently.

    As for non-experts giving advice and their opinions, I hate seeing people misled too but its the nature of a forum so you have to accept that since those people can't be muzzled (however much it might feel great to

    I haven't posted in eons cos I don't have much time and a lot of the posts ARE to me uninteresting or unhelpful but again that's the nature of forums.

    Anyway I think the recent posts about pricing and package deals have been helpful to some folks so they've done their job. For those that unfortunately get misled by some of the headtrash posted as qs and/or advice hopefully they read enough of the good posts to get back on track again asap or immediately.

    Learning, making wrong turns, correcting mistakes, making wins, having fails, taking risks, etc etc are all part of business and life. You can't save everyone so don't try too hard or you'll definitely get frustrated

    Cheers

    Kunle Olomofe
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  • Profile picture of the author Preeti
    Just had to chime in here and say I love this post Jason! And this is SO true!!!

    Especially as newbies starting off, there is SO much self-talk and doubt about why and how you can't charge $XXXX+ or $XX,XXX+ for your services (I know, I was there!) and that's all it is---just your own self-talk that you have the ability to control and change.

    Tweak your self-talk and watch your profits & opportunities grow!
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  • Profile picture of the author Deidra Renee
    Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

    This subforum isn't headed in the right direction of late.

    What should I charge?

    How should I structure my offer?

    Should I work for free?

    And then the opinions come rushing in. "Higher!" "Lower." "In between!"

    First of all...

    You can find someone to pay just about whatever price you set--as long as you are willing to sort and invest the time to find this person.

    Be very, very careful who you choose as your first client(s). Because

    Second...

    You get typecast according to what you've done.

    Spend your time doing $500 websites, and you will find it very difficult to transition to (or find) a $10,000 website client.

    You will literally program yourself to find and do business at the level you feel comfortable. You will literally program yourself to unconsciously ignore opportunities that don't fit that profile--and you'll reinforce those bad beliefs by giving yourself negative self-talk that says, "No way. I can't do that. Nobody is doing that. They're all liars."

    And this leads to

    Third...

    It's 99.9% headtrash.

    The stories you carry around in your head about yourself determine almost everything that happens to you. The greeks said "Character determines fate." You determine the kind of client you get and the work you do by the headtrash you have.

    The 0.1% is technical ability. Well that can always be learned or outsourced.


    So quit making up stories about why you "can't." Stop wasting your time with imaginary package rundowns the relevance of which will vaporize the moment you actually get in front of a prospect.

    Get out there and start having conversations with decision makers. Find out what's really going on in their world. Match up what you can do (or can have done) with what they need. Figure out how much that's worth, then charge it. Not many threads about doing this lately. Instead, people are standing around asking the same questions...and getting nowhere. Concern yourself less about technical know-how and more about talking to prospects, and you will make sales. That's the direction to move in.
    I think people ask these questions over and over out of procrastination. *If I don't know what to charge, I can't possibly pick up the phone and sell my services* a.k.a fear. I used to do it, I just didn't ask the same question over and over, I just kept reading the same threads over and over lol

    You can easily do a quick search and see what someone says they sell pretty much anything for, so when I see people asking these *technical* questions I just think they're intentionally (maybe subconsciously) trying to get caught up on the technical side of things so they can convince their self that they're not ready to get started. They're too busy getting started, to get started lol

    Once you're actually ready to start and I mean have everything ready to go; your pitch, pricing, etc..You almost have to stay away from this forum for a while, because you will come back and see a thread where someone says *Cold calling sucks, try lumpy direct mail* or *direct mail sucks, I just sent 10 emails and got 2 responses* so now you stop doing what you're doing (that you were almost successful at, because if you do anything long enough it will pay off, I promise) and now you're back to reading the forums.

    Get the information you need, which really is just a good script (email template, direct mail letter, etc), the service you want to provide, and find someone who needs and wants your service. You will find that once that sale comes in you have the ablity to quickly find a way to fulfill the service that you just sold even if you don't know how to do it yourself.

    I *accidentally* sold Google Places to someone when I was first starting out and I didn't know what the hell Google Places was all about. lol He was just so excited about it, that's all he was interested in, he asked me if I could do that for him, I told him yes, but I need to look at his site, see what needs to be done, and I'll call him back and let him know the process. I only did that because I really needed to come back to the forum and figure out how to explain Google Places to someone lol I found what I was looking for and that ended with me finding a GREAT Google Places outsourcer and I was then able to add that to my list of services.

    Ok I'm going on and on, the point is, figure out what you can provide, get a price together, and do some prospecting. Reading conflicting threads will just confuse you and this time next year, you'll still be reading and probably still asking the same questions. What worked for someone won't necessarily work for you, what didn't work for someone could work for you. The only way you'll find out is if you go looking for clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author SashaLee
      Originally Posted by Deidra Renee View Post

      Ok I'm going on and on, the point is, figure out what you can provide, get a price together, and do some prospecting. Reading conflicting threads will just confuse you and this time next year, you'll still be reading and probably still asking the same questions. What worked for someone won't necessarily work for you, what didn't work for someone could work for you. The only way you'll find out is if you go looking for clients.
      Hi there,

      I second what Deidra is saying. Just get out there and do it! Fail a little - you'll succeed in the end. Perfection is the enemy of action.

      All the best.

      Sasha
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by SashaLee View Post

        Hi there,

        I second what Deidra is saying. Just get out there and do it! Fail a little - you'll succeed in the end. Perfection is the enemy of action.

        All the best.

        Sasha
        Yes but they are too scared to fail. In my OP I was pointing out the headtrash everyone has that blocks them at some level. It's part of being human. But we can identify and change those limiting beliefs.

        Newbies feel they can't charge a reasonable amount...they question whether they can get the job done...they wonder if prospects will be interested in what they have to offer. They shut themselves down.

        My point is that people need to examine their thoughts and beliefs, and change them. They will not run out there and fail their way to success without doing that first.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

    Get out there and start having conversations with decision makers. Find out what's really going on in their world. Match up what you can do (or can have done) with what they need. Figure out how much that's worth, then charge it. Not many threads about doing this lately. Instead, people are standing around asking the same questions...and getting nowhere. Concern yourself less about technical know-how and more about talking to prospects, and you will make sales. That's the direction to move in.

    GREAT great advice.

    The other side of this is that many people starting out are so
    concerned with trying to get hired...to get paid...or in other
    words concerned about themselves...that they're missing 2
    VITAL points:

    1. You need to focus on the business owner you're talking to
    (not yourself) and put his needs first if you want to get him
    onside and really serve him.

    2. It really doesn't matter so much if you get hired when you're
    starting out. Talking to business owners is the key to building
    the skills you need.

    If you just focus on getting better at that instead of being so
    uptight about getting paid it's inevitable you'll get hired.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh

    P.S. When we first started OfflineBiz.com in 2008 two of the
    earliest questions we got were:

    What should I charge?
    and
    Should I work for free?

    So the questions aren't really a new development limited
    to what's going on lately in the Offline section of the
    Warrior Forum.

    And there's really nothing wrong with people asking what's
    at the top of their mind.

    That's the only way they can get the answer they need.

    What's important is that they get an answer like the one
    you've made in your post.
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    • Profile picture of the author abbot
      Banned
      Forums like these are helpful, yes. Many people 'owe' their success to marketing forums.

      Forums like these are also a very BAD thing for new marketers. Why? Too much information....period. People get so stuck on soaking up so much information that they short out.

      Many people on here make this too hard, and when they get on here and bitch about it, it confuses the noobies even more.

      To be quite frank, there are many on here that lead themselves to believe that they are good at this stuff, and give horrible advice. They don't help either..

      I have said it before...if people would spend as much time trying to drum up business as they do on here, they might be successful. But that's never the case. THAT is the problem
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
    Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

    You will literally program yourself to find and do business at the level you feel comfortable. You will literally program yourself to unconsciously ignore opportunities that don't fit that profile--and you'll reinforce those bad beliefs by giving yourself negative self-talk that says, "No way. I can't do that. Nobody is doing that. They're all liars."
    I mostly agree, but I continue to believe that it is excessively toxic to tell people that they can do anything, that the sky is the limit. To go for 10k contracts right out of the gate with no prior experience. That's just setting up people for failure, and then they say "this stuff isn't working" and they move on to the next thing.

    You have to walk before you run.

    You have to learn the basics of how selling and building websites works before you go and sign 10k clients.

    All this WF nonsense about "just outsource it!!!!11" is just a gimmick. How are you going to do quality control if you outsource everything and don't have even basic knowledge of what you're selling. Not pointing at the original post here, you see this littered all over the warrior forums and WSOs aplenty.

    If the point was "stop obsessing about the details and the most basic obstacle" I entirely agree. If it's just another "take action no matter the quality and consequences" then I don't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Deidra Renee
      Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

      I mostly agree, but I continue to believe that it is excessively toxic to tell people that they can do anything, that the sky is the limit. To go for 10k contracts right out of the gate with no prior experience. That's just setting up people for failure, and then they say "this stuff isn't working" and they move on to the next thing.

      You have to walk before you run.

      You have to learn the basics of how selling and building websites works before you go and sign 10k clients.

      All this WF nonsense about "just outsource it!!!!11" is just a gimmick. How are you going to do quality control if you outsource everything and don't have even basic knowledge of what you're selling. Not pointing at the original post here, you see this littered all over the warrior forums.

      If the point was "stop obsessing about the details and the most basic obstacle" I entirely agree. If it's just another "take action no matter the quality and consequences" then I don't.
      Of course you should have a basic knowledge of what you're trying to sell, but *I'm* assuming people already have that knowledge if they're even thinking about starting an offline business. With that being said, it is very possible to outsource something you don't know how to do.

      Once you get the ball rolling, you don't have to be a master at EVERYTHING. If you're used to selling website design, do you really need to know how to build a mobile website or make a YouTube video for that same business, or can you sell the website and then go outsource the video?

      Of course it's wise to get the basic knowledge of everything so you can know how it works, the benefits, etc.. but I don't think you need to be an expert in order to sell something, but yes I agree, you need basic knowledge.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
        Originally Posted by Deidra Renee View Post

        Of course you should have a basic knowledge of what you're trying to sell, but *I'm* assuming people already have that knowledge if they're even thinking about starting an offline business. With that being said, it is very possible to outsource something you don't know how to do.
        Well...

        Jason is mentioning the people that come here and ask questions such as:

        "What should I charge?

        How should I structure my offer?

        Should I work for free?
        "

        I'm assuming that we're talking about the complete beginners here.

        Using an overly dramatic analogy: telling these guys that it's all headtrash and there's no limit to what they can do is like giving a toddler a chainsaw and say go ahead buddy, you can do it, don't be afraid.

        I always refer to the people that wake up one day and figure "hey I read a few articles about SEO.. I'ma call myself an SEO expert now and get me some 1k/month clients".

        Can it be done? Yes.

        Is the quality usually there? No.

        When you look at websites, you'll see that a lot of them have SEO done. The small business owners have already paid hundreds if not thousands for SEO. Yet someone who actually knows their stuff will see countless mistakes.

        Here.. I found a perfect example in a matter of seconds:

        Family Dentistry | Virginia Beach, VA

        The person is trying to use keywords in the URL and title.. yet the rest of the website has zero optimization.

        I feel like I'm the lone crusader against incompetence on this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

          Well...

          Jason is mentioning the people that come here and ask questions such as:

          "What should I charge?

          How should I structure my offer?

          Should I work for free?
          "

          I'm assuming that we're talking about the complete beginners here.

          Using an overly dramatic analogy: telling these guys that it's all headtrash and there's no limit to what they can do is like giving a toddler a chainsaw and say go ahead buddy, you can do it, don't be afraid.

          I always refer to the people that wake up one day and figure "hey I read a few articles about SEO.. I'ma call myself an SEO expert now and get me some 1k/month clients".

          Can it be done? Yes.

          Is the quality usually there? No.

          When you look at websites, you'll see that a lot of them have SEO done. The small business owners have already paid hundreds if not thousands for SEO. Yet someone who actually knows their stuff will see countless mistakes.

          Here.. I found a perfect example in a matter of seconds:

          Family Dentistry | Virginia Beach, VA

          The person is trying to use keywords in the URL and title.. yet the rest of the website has zero optimization.

          I feel like I'm the lone crusader against incompetence on this forum.
          My point starting this thread was not about asking questions. It was about the fact that nearly ALL the questions lately were of a technical nature and not about how to generate revenue. I look for a mix. There wasn't one.
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    • Profile picture of the author donza
      Originally Posted by Robert Domino View Post

      I mostly agree, but I continue to believe that it is excessively toxic to tell people that they can do anything, that the sky is the limit. To go for 10k contracts right out of the gate with no prior experience. That's just setting up people for failure, and then they say "this stuff isn't working" and they move on to the next thing.

      You have to walk before you run.

      You have to learn the basics of how selling and building websites works before you go and sign 10k clients.

      All this WF nonsense about "just outsource it!!!!11" is just a gimmick. How are you going to do quality control if you outsource everything and don't have even basic knowledge of what you're selling. Not pointing at the original post here, you see this littered all over the warrior forums and WSOs aplenty.

      If the point was "stop obsessing about the details and the most basic obstacle" I entirely agree. If it's just another "take action no matter the quality and consequences" then I don't.
      I agree totally... Initiative is great but these are other people's livelihoods they are messing with. Before a wannabe web designer picks up a phone they should, at the very least, have a decent understanding of:

      How to build a functional, unique, website
      Security
      SEO

      The best training would be to build a profitable lead gen site. If they can do that then they would know they can add real value to a small business. Also their confidence would skyrocket.

      Cheers Don
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  • Profile picture of the author opalfx
    You can find someone to pay just about whatever price you set <---- wisdom!!

    however, i think it's all about the cycles. i mean rarely do ppl go interview for jobs to be a dentist before they get their dentistry degree. i think it's the same for offline marketers. we want to be prepared. we have to be the expert as our prospects are rarely unversed in seo and other offline marketing services pitches. it would be helpful if people sold more basic courses as you can really feel uncomfortable talking to prospect when you have no foundation of internet marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Totally agree Mr Domino !

    There are too many people who can (just about) do one thing and one thing only, and that's often due to a piece of software or WSO that does it for them. so they call themselves mobile marketing consultants and go off offering the one thing they can do.

    Where is the longer term strategy for the businesses (their clients I mean not their own business) , what can be bolted on to complement the one thing they are offering, yes they may be able to hoodwink and BS their way into a few clients and then learn and grow from there, but the majority don't/won't and whilst I'm not on a crusade to save the business owners' bacon , there is a strong reason why there are so many business websites out there not working even at 5% capacity for the business owners , there are reasons why there are multiple social media accounts and FB fan pages etc set up that have no or way too little effective engagement on them etc etc and soon they'll be many reasons why businesses have dead end mobile sites with no thought out short and long term strategy in place.
    The reason is because the dumbos that sold and delivered them haven't got a Scooby what they're doing, they may be able to talk the hind legs off a donkey or be well good at bullshitting or just have a WSO that shows off 'their' work so well that is sells for them to some, but they often have little idea what to do or where to take their clients businesses next.

    Another dead end for the business owners out there and as someone said above, it's these people livelihoods that are being 'played' with and that just is not on.

    If you can deliver one solution then deliver it for people who know how to utilise it, eg the experienced people on here who don't have the time or inclination to deliver the individual solutions (coding/design/tecchie etc) but know very well how to set in motion effective strategies for clients, and when you deliver it do it at a price point that reflects you haven't had any customer acquisition costs or customer services follow uip issues ie if you were charging £400 direct to the client, then charge less to the supplier as there is no CAC involved , see many don't even get that basic premise so how can they truly expect to benefit a business owner beyond the basic one thing they offer.
    Now this may or may not deter some from taking some steps to try, you know what, I don't care cos I'm not peddling anything, if it stops 200 people winning 3 clients each and messing them up by just delivering one dead end ill considered solution that's not even the solution the business really needs but it's all they've got to offer, then good.
    soap box away ;-)
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    Mike

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I generally agree with what Jason is saying, but I put more emphasis on getting the knowledge and experience.

    My sense is that a lot of the people posting basic questions should get more experience and knowledge before they even try consulting or providing services on their own. Learn best practices for whatever they offer. Learn how to manage outsourcing without getting hoodwinked and have enough resources to cover the cost of the rework if you do get hood winked...

    Work for someone else for six months to a year. Study.

    Many should also get more business operations, management, and marketing knowledge so they can ask the right questions about the prospect's or customer's business and provide the best solutions for that customer.

    Also, many need to get more business knowledge so they can understand the legal/regulatory environment that the prospect is involved with. Such as the fee splitting issue with attorneys and real estate agents...

    After all, providing internet marketing services and consulting is very, very important to the success or improvement of the client's business.

    If they have the knowledge and experience, then they will have more confidence and the selling part will be easier - or they can outsource the selling part or partner with a sales person if needed.

    Dan
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      I generally agree with what Jason is saying, but I put more emphasis on getting the knowledge and experience.

      My sense is that a lot of the people posting basic questions should get more experience and knowledge before they even try consulting or providing services on their own. Learn best practices for whatever they offer. Learn how to manage outsourcing without getting hoodwinked and have enough resources to cover the cost of the rework if you do get hood winked...

      Work for someone else for six months to a year. Study.

      Many should also get more business operations, management, and marketing knowledge so they can ask the right questions about the prospect's or customer's business and provide the best solutions for that customer.

      Also, many need to get more business knowledge so they can understand the legal/regulatory environment that the prospect is involved with. Such as the fee splitting issue with attorneys and real estate agents...

      After all, providing internet marketing services and consulting is very, very important to the success or improvement of the client's business.

      If they have the knowledge and experience, then they will have more confidence and the selling part will be easier - or they can outsource the selling part or partner with a sales person if needed.

      Dan
      Of course we want people to know what they are doing in a technical sense. But they also must actually go out and talk to people to get clients. Technical knowledge is not enough.

      Working for someone else to get the knowledge is a great idea. I doubt many people would do it, though; they are looking for a quick easy buck.

      I like what you had to say, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bhekizwe
    I agree with Jason on this one.Make more conversations with prospective clients for more sales. Deidra also mentioned a valid point that "if you do anything long enough it will pay off....."
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  • Profile picture of the author RockNRolla
    I had to use this same kind of logic with a friend of mines' brother who started his own digital agency recently. By taking on more clients by offering cheap services to 'begin with' will help them get started.

    I tried to explain that 20 SEO clients at £200 per month is a WHOLE lot more hassle and costly than 2 clients at £2,000 per month. What it is that shocks me the most is that the difference in effort to actually obtain a £200 a month client compared to a £2,000 a month client is almost null. A lot of digital agency owners just don't seem to grasp this simple business concept, it puzzles me.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by RockNRolla View Post

      I had to use this same kind of logic with a friend of mines' brother who started his own digital agency recently. By taking on more clients by offering cheap services to 'begin with' will help them get started.

      I tried to explain that 20 SEO clients at £200 per month is a WHOLE lot more hassle and costly than 2 clients at £2,000 per month. What it is that shocks me the most is that the difference in effort to actually obtain a £200 a month client compared to a £2,000 a month client is almost null. A lot of digital agency owners just don't seem to grasp this simple business concept, it puzzles me.

      Congratulations, YOU are light years ahead of most.

      A $5.00 sale takes the same effort as a $50k sale.
      No more, no less.

      Most never truly understand or learn that lesson.
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      Selling Ain't for Sissies!
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      • Profile picture of the author sodomojo
        Not always. Can it? Yes, but does that mean in all cases? No. Don't take out the complexity of the solution, which can directly effect cost out of the equation. On that same note, don't remove the human element of it is more likely to have a high needs customer at the lower price point as opposed to a more reasonable or a higher price point.
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        Congratulations, YOU are light years ahead of most.

        A $5.00 sale takes the same effort as a $50k sale.
        No more, no less.

        Most never truly understand or learn that lesson.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Domino
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        Congratulations, YOU are light years ahead of most.

        A $5.00 sale takes the same effort as a $50k sale.
        No more, no less.

        Most never truly understand or learn that lesson.
        Same effort to sell, maybe.

        Same results expectations? Not at all.

        All these posts on WF help people sell more, and that's wonderful, but they almost never say a single word about DELIVERING.

        Edit: If you were to charge me 5k for a website and you provided a generic template with a few modifications, I can guarantee I would tell everyone I know about "that company trying to rip off people".
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  • Hi Jason,

    That was a free thinking thread that puts a finger on one or more of those unknown or "hidden" problems many face.

    Your thread post is a good reminder about what is important in selling your product.

    Thanks for the clarity.

    LLS
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Originally Posted by Art of Marketing View Post

    Hey Jason,

    Were you sipping white or red when you came up with this quality post?

    Just kidding. Its always best not to drink and forum!

    I really enjoyed reading this one because you can really apply it to Marketing as a whole.

    I love reading about someone getting acquired by yahoo or Google because we are all just one great idea short from that experience happening to us.

    And also on the other hand some may think that discounting our hard work is not really worth it and should our insights really be reduced to a 7 dollar WSO?

    The thing is not to even think of it that way....a WSO opens up an opportunity to continue to share with that proven buyer in the future.

    If you really wow them and deliver for that price they can only imagine how you will deliver with a more premium offering.


    So for me not matter where we start on the price spectrum high or low never discount your belief in yourself to become a high achiever and enjoying wealth in the process.


    -Art
    I don't drink alcohol at all, Art.

    My point was and is that there are not enough posts lately about communicating with prospects and turning them into clients. And start discussion about it. If you look, you'll see a lot of people agree with me. Maybe you should edit your post.

    It DOES matter where you start, because a) it takes the same time and effort to get a lousy client as it does to get a great one, and b) you get typecast according to who you hang around with.

    I don't offer $7 WSOs. Just sharing a fact.
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