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When Education Based Marketing Doesn't Work

by ewenmack
31 replies
It could be for pure alturistic reasons or money getting reasons
you want to educate a group of people to change their way of thinking
for their benefit.

However asking someone to change their existing beliefs,
bias and wacky thoughts is best left to missionaries and counsellors
if you intend to make money. Counsellors and missionaries mostly rely
on others to fund their work because it's near impossible to do for a profit.

Working with my partner this week to crack a tough profession who see
themselves too good to be involved in sales and marketing of their firm...
opened up his eyes because he was trying to get them to understand it's importance.

Finally he had his light bulb moment...you can't change that belief of theirs,
so stop trying and work with it.

In fact go as far as letting them know it's ok and not their fault.

We then transition into helping what they already believe is a problem
and fixing it.

Then we suggest there may be other areas they may have blockages and wastage...
even let them go as far as providing a tool to see for themselves where there is a problem.

Then they come to us for help to fix what they now see as a problem.

Key point...they now own the belief they have a problem.

Not going on that they are wrong and should be doing
something different. You both get annoyed with each other
this way and never do business together.

This may sound obvious, however so many people fall over on this.

Best,
Ewen
#based #education #marketing #work
  • Profile picture of the author kirbymarketingconcierge
    so you have to push and pull???
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

      so you have to push and pull???
      First key point is to know and understand what motivates a person to take action the most...pain or pleasure.

      Next point is to enter into the conversation what your prospect has
      going on in his head.

      Next step is to get agreement with him what
      you are saying is true.

      It's about working with him, not pushing or pulling.

      However once you get agreement on even one minor point,
      then yes by all means you can make a suggestion to lead
      to the next small step.


      Best,
      Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author kirbymarketingconcierge
        man ewen,

        you are good.

        short, sweet, and spot on information

        thanks

        p.s. - I bet you read the entire Internet this morning!
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

          man ewen,

          you are good.

          short, sweet, and spot on information

          thanks

          p.s. - I bet you read the entire Internet this morning!
          He lives at a holiday in express I think!
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

        First key point is to know and understand what motivates a person to take action the most...pain or pleasure.

        Next point is to enter into the conversation what your prospect has
        going on in his head.

        Next step is to get agreement with him what
        you are saying is true.

        It's about working with him, not pushing or pulling.

        However once you get agreement on even one minor point,
        then yes by all means you can make a suggestion to lead
        to the next small step.


        Best,
        Ewen
        Ewen; I think I know what you are talking about.

        In my sales letters, I tell my niche that they were lied to, and "Led to believe" several "Self evident truths, that are myths".

        But you are right. The moment they read something in opposition to what they believe, the blinders come on.

        Imagination is always stronger than evidence.

        Yeah, they have to discover it on their own...although you can arrange it so that this happens.

        Good stuff, Ewen.
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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


          Imagination is always stronger than evidence.


          Good stuff, Ewen.
          We can still use evidence to confirm their suspicions about a group of people.

          Or we can use it to add more proof and reinforce their existing beliefs.

          If a group think Internet marketers are a bunch of low life scammers, then we can bring the news a certain person has been arrested and charged with fraud after rip off reports. That's an example.

          Best,
          Ewen
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

            We can still use evidence to confirm their suspicions about a group of people.

            Or we can use it to add more proof and reinforce their existing beliefs.

            If a group think Internet marketers are a bunch of low life scammers, then we can bring the news a certain person has been arrested and charged with fraud after rip off reports. That's an example.

            Best,
            Ewen
            Or strengthen a fear or a prejudice. (assuming it aligns with your offer)
            Or align yourself as "comrades in arms against a common evil"

            Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post


            Letter #1 - "Dear Fellow Locksmith,"

            Letter #2 - "Dear Marketing Hater,"
            My guess is that "Dear Fellow Locksmith" pulled better. But only because I wouldn't think of someone identifying themselves as a "Marketing Hater".

            But if you said "Marketing Victim" or "Sales Rep Victim"..I would guess those greetings.


            But I'm anxious to hear your actual results.
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            • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              Or strengthen a fear or a prejudice. (assuming it aligns with your offer)
              Or align yourself as "comrades in arms against a common evil"
              Yes, now we are getting into mass mind control used by cult leaders.

              We can use for good though by leading people through to
              take a decision that is right and not cause harm to themselves and others.

              Best,
              Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author ThePromotionalGuy
        Ewen,

        Funny you mentioning this. Just last night I'm re-reading Collier and came across that written-in-stone marketing commandment.

        Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

        Next point is to enter into the conversation what your prospect has going on in his head.
        I did a test with locksmiths that proves your point. I sent 2 different sales letters. All the body copy was identical with each letter.

        Only my headlines were different.

        Letter #1 - "Dear Fellow Locksmith,"

        Letter #2 - "Dear Marketing Hater,"

        Without giving my results away and based on entering the conversation which letter in your best educated guess out pulled the other?

        Bear in mind locksmiths loath marketing and advertising.

        I look forward to your response.
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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          I'm picking hater won for 2 reasons...

          1 you aren't a Locksmith which is a disconnect
          when you say fellow

          2 you gave away the clue in that they
          hate marketing

          Best,
          Ewen


          Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

          Ewen,

          Funny you mentioning this. Just last night I'm re-reading Collier and came across that written-in-stone marketing commandment.



          I did a test with locksmiths that proves your point. I sent 2 different sales letters. All the body copy was identical with each letter.

          Only my headlines were different.

          Letter #1 - "Dear Fellow Locksmith,"

          Letter #2 - "Dear Marketing Hater,"

          Without giving my results away and based on entering the conversation which letter in your best educated guess out pulled the other?

          Bear in mind locksmiths loath marketing and advertising.

          I look forward to your response.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

      so you have to push and pull???
      You have to do like this chinese guy
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Lawyers or engineers?
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Lawyers or engineers?
      Is one group better than the other?

      Best,
      Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

        Is one group better than the other?

        Best,
        Ewen
        I'd say Not
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  • Profile picture of the author Rearden
    I am all for education-based sales and marketing, if I am targeting an open-minded group.

    That is and has always been the lynchpin.

    I can convert a Lutheran to a Presbyterian, but it's a slim-to-none chance to convert an Atheist to a Christian.

    Also note the extremely wasteful investment we (Americans) make into education -- how can we teach a group of children who don't find value in what we teach? Maybe this is tangental but somewhat relates.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Lessard
    Great post Ewan. The best advisers are those that understand they must carefully educate their clients and that they have a responsibility to do so if they take their money.

    I was fortunate in my early career to work with someone that looking back now I consider a ninja at this stuff. He developed and sold custom software applications that would streamline business process, sales process etc.. Nothing gets you deeper into the bowels of a business than writing the solution that runs it, grows it, provides reporting on it etc... We basically took businesses that ran because of all the info in the owners brain and automated them so if he got hit by a truck that business would keep growing.

    As his lead developer I would sit in on meetings and he would have a conversation that went like this. He would listen to what they thought they wanted and needed. He would somehow figure out a way to agree with them no matter how absurd and set up a way to get started and get an agreement and check.

    First time this happened I left saying are you nuts? You and I both know they don't need solution A that you just sold them for 5k. What their business needs is solution B, 60k+/ in the first year for sure and will never stop needing work as their business changes.

    He looked at me and said I know that but they are not ready to hear that yet. This check they just gave me is just a permission slip to educate them. I have never forgotten the "check is a permission slip to educate them" line.

    I worked with him over 3 years. The result was a group of clients that all had come in at the 5 to 10k/mark that almost all ported over to clients that spend more than 60 to 100k first year and that continued to use him yearly for updates/changes and they smiled all the way through the budget increases.

    The reason I call him a Ninja at it is because he truly did educate them along the way in the most respectful way that made them feel good about their decisions and I have NEVER to this day seen a consultant be so loved by the people that were giving him all this money. When he showed up at their office he was treated like a best friend.

    Of course it does not hurt that he was right about what he advised. He helped many businesses grow to levels they would not have grown at speeds they would not have previously imagined.

    In contrast I have sat in meetings were consultants were in heated arguments doing everything they could to convince the owners they were wrong really believing if they could pound the guy over the head with evidence of how stupid his beliefs were that somehow that meeting would end in a handshake and check.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by plessard View Post

      In contrast I have sat in meetings were consultants were in heated arguments doing everything they could to convince the owners they were wrong really believing if they could pound the guy over the head with evidence of how stupid his beliefs were that somehow that meeting would end in a handshake and check.
      Another Brilliant post from you.

      My solution doesn't require that I'm as intelligent and patient as your old boss.

      I just find people that are already in alignment with what I do. Or they already know what I do and want that.

      I know I'm missing the bulk of the business that way. But it's the path I've chosen, my young Padiwan.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Another Brilliant post from you.

        My solution doesn't require that I'm as intelligent and patient as your old boss.

        I just find people that are already in alignment with what I do. Or they already know what I do and want that.

        I know I'm missing the bulk of the business that way. But it's the path I've chosen, my young Padiwan.
        "Lightening Bolt Claude Whitacre" With a flash of light and a huge bang, he's got the check... and how? path of least resistance.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThePromotionalGuy
          Ewen and Claude,

          Of the two letters the "Dear Fellow Locksmith" out pulled "Dear Marketing Hater".

          I really thought it would have been the other way around because locksmiths hate marketing and I really thought their curiosity might have been sparked. Having been a professional locksmith myself and knowing quite a bit about the industry I was surprised.

          After re-reading Collier he mentions that addressing the sales letter to a specific group such as dentist, housewife, locksmith & etc... does bring your letter to the right audience and gets their attention being group specific rather than belief specific.
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          • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
            Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

            Ewen and Claude,

            Of the two letters the "Dear Fellow Locksmith" out pulled "Dear Marketing Hater".

            I really thought it would have been the other way around because locksmiths hate marketing and I really thought their curiosity might have been sparked. Having been a professional locksmith myself and knowing quite a bit about the industry I was surprised.

            After re-reading Collier he mentions that addressing the sales letter to a specific group such as dentist, housewife, locksmith & etc... does bring your letter to the right audience and gets their attention being group specific rather than belief specific.
            Thanks for that.

            Looking more depth into it, I'm thinking of personal identity has come into play.

            They wouldn't call themselves "I'm a hater of marketing"
            when asked what they do, they'd call themselves a locksmith.

            And it's at the greeting where you've used the split test,
            not later on in the letter.

            Best,
            Ewen
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by plessard View Post

      He would somehow figure out a way to agree with them no matter how absurd and set up a way to get started and get an agreement and check.
      Thanks for a great case study of getting agreement and the money,
      rather than setting out to prove they are wrong and not get the money.

      Best,
      Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    This is the best thread I've found all week.

    When selling, do you think it's best to try and convince a prospect of something...

    ...or find prospects who already believe what you do?

    You'd be amazed by the number of people who believe selling is about persuasion, convincing, and changing minds.

    There's another way, that doesn't inflict wear and tear on you, the salesperson, as the "I have to persuade them" route does.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

      This is the best thread I've found all week.

      When selling, do you think it's best to try and convince a prospect of something...

      ...or find prospects who already believe what you do?

      You'd be amazed by the number of people who believe selling is about persuasion, convincing, and changing minds.

      There's another way, that doesn't inflict wear and tear on you, the salesperson, as the "I have to persuade them" route does.
      Jason; Over several sales, Plessard's boss had a great idea. But it's not a single sale process.

      I really think both paths are valid. I used to try to convince people to see me, then convince them to buy, then convince them to keep what they bought...when they tried to cancel. You're right, it was exhausting.

      I'm talking now about one call selling here. Not the "Relationship, trust building" process that Ewen and Plessard are talking about.

      I just found it far easier when I concentrated on prospects that were highly likely to buy from me. Actually, the hard part was figuring out who these people were.


      And, truth be told, I'm not a "relationships" kind of guy. Selling what they want, so I can later sell them what they need...isn't in my nature.
      I just know where my strengths are. And my weaknesses.


      ThePromotionalGuy: So...who won? Ewen or me?

      I have 5 excuses, and an accusation of Ewen cheating...if he won.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        I'm talking now about one call selling here. Not the "Relationship, trust building" process that Ewen and Plessard are talking about.
        Claude, from what you've written in your book One Call Closing,
        you do go through a process of getting agreements before moving to the next step.

        See, I'm searching for an agreement...
        better watch out I'll be getting a check from you next

        Best,
        Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


        ThePromotionalGuy: So...who won? Ewen or me?

        I have 5 excuses, and an accusation of Ewen cheating...if he won.
        Now you're trying to rig the jury...
        looks like a desperation move by ya Claudius!

        Best,
        Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Jason; Over several sales, Plessard's boss had a great idea. But it's not a single sale process.

        I really think both paths are valid. I used to try to convince people to see me, then convince them to buy, then convince them to keep what they bought...when they tried to cancel. You're right, it was exhausting.

        I'm talking now about one call selling here. Not the "Relationship, trust building" process that Ewen and Plessard are talking about.

        I just found it far easier when I concentrated on prospects that were highly likely to buy from me. Actually, the hard part was figuring out who these people were.


        And, truth be told, I'm not a "relationships" kind of guy. Selling what they want, so I can later sell them what they need...isn't in my nature.
        I just know where my strengths are. And my weaknesses.


        ThePromotionalGuy: So...who won? Ewen or me?

        I have 5 excuses, and an accusation of Ewen cheating...if he won.
        Actually I didn't read "relationship building" into what plessard's boss was doing. I saw it as qualifying. Sorting those who already believe what you believe from those who don't.

        Yes, you have to return for sale #2, the acutal sale, in that case.

        The pain points I use separate prospects into those who are experiencing those problems or symptoms, and those who don't.

        This can be a 1 call close as well.

        I see how much easier it is on the salesperson, even if you have to return, and how you make more money the way plessard's boss was doing it....not to mention having to find fewer prospects to work with since your calendar is full of return visits for higher value sales meetings. Hmmm. Making me think.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          I see how much easier it is on the salesperson, even if you have to return, and how you make more money the way plessard's boss was doing it....not to mention having to find fewer prospects to work with since your calendar is full of return visits for higher value sales meetings. Hmmm. Making me think.
          I see it as smart selling. Smarter than what I'm doing.
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    • Profile picture of the author misterme
      Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post


      When selling, do you think it's best to try and convince a prospect of something...

      ...or find prospects who already believe what you do?
      Certainly those who already think as I do but there's a third group which are just as good:

      Those who weren't aware they believed the same way or were resigned to live without that belief until they saw it existed.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by misterme View Post

        Certainly those who already think as I do but there's a third group which are just as good:

        Those who weren't aware they believed the same way or were resigned to live without that belief until they saw it existed.
        Could you expand on that? I've read it several times, and I'm not sure I understand.
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  • Profile picture of the author popstocks
    Banned
    screw educating i am no professor....make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michi Kono
    I have an experience where I did give a consultative sale pitch to a local industrial foam retailer, which was successful in terms of educating them about online marketing (in specific SEO). They liked about what they learned but they did not convert...

    A few months later they asked me if I do website development as they wanted to revamp their e-commerce site. I said NO simply because I was not offering that kind of service back then.

    So they went back to their original site developer but they did some bad job and ended up loosing some SEO rankings for good keywords that the site was naturally ranking for (the site has been around for 8 years).

    As soon as they experienced their online sales gone down by 30%, they realized the importance of the SEO for real and came back to me to do the SEO fro them. This time they went for the highest seo package I offer and they did not even question it.

    What I learned....

    The actual PAIN in their business is the true motivation to hire you, if you appear to know what you are talking about.
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