41 replies
Which of these two skills do you think you could charge more for as a freelancer?

Vote below...
#copywriting #design
  • Profile picture of the author hallofquotes
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Copywriting. It seems to be easier to differentiate and specialize as a copywriter. I don't see designers doing that. (hint hint)

    Plus with copywriting you can quickly monetize the cost-benefit whereas with design it's an ongoing thing. And customers can come back for more copywriting projects, but with design once it's done it's done for a couple years or more.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Why not complement your design with copy, and vice versa? Double whammy, 2 birds one stone, 2 girls one cup, and so on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kung Fu Backlinks
    I once worked with a writer that understood User Experience (UX) and Information Architecture (IA) principles and how they could be applied to organizing the content she wrote. It was a powerful combination that I really appreciated and so did my clients.

    If I were a copywriter, I would definitely invest some time into getting familiar with UX and proper information structuring. I think it would be a major boon to clients allowing me to charge a premium.

    The same could be said for "designers," too. Good design is about more than just matching pretty colors.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by Kung Fu Backlinks View Post

      I once worked with a writer that understood User Experience (UX) and Information Architecture (IA) principles and how they could be applied to organizing the content she wrote. It was a powerful combination that I really appreciated and so did my clients.

      If I were a copywriter, I would definitely invest some time into getting familiar with UX and proper information structuring. I think it would be a major boon to clients allowing me to charge a premium.

      The same could be said for "designers," too. Good design is about more than just matching pretty colors.
      Some of this stuff can't be taught, though...you either have an affinity for design or writing, or you don't. And I doubt many individuals will have both. Yes you can build on it and be aware of it, but if you don't have that spark to begin with, knowledge without talent isn't going to be something you can charge for.

      @Chris, what brought this question on, anyway?
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      • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        @Chris, what brought this question on, anyway?
        Hey Jason

        I bought it up because it was a conversation going on within a private forum i'm on that seems to be predominantly copywriters. So I thought it would be good to see the response here.
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        Some of this stuff can't be taught, though
        I disagree... saying some things can't be taught is either a cop out for not being able to use your brain and learn, or a way to glorify yourself by saying you were born with special talent that other people can't match due to genetics.

        The human brain is a very powerful thing. The whole natural born talent garbage might be a good excuse for some people to be okay with mediocrity but I don't buy it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          I disagree... saying some things can't be taught is either a cop out for not being able to use your brain and learn, or a way to glorify yourself by saying you were born with special talent that other people can't match due to genetics.

          The human brain is a very powerful thing. The whole natural born talent garbage might be a good excuse for some people to be okay with mediocrity but I don't buy it.
          So tell me how if you don't have a basic eye for design, you're going to acquire it. Design isn't math or formulaic.

          And many people will suck at writing no matter how hard they work at it.

          Effort and committment DO beat natural talent, but finding someone who deep down wants to be a great designer and copywriter is going to be tough.

          Same with selling. Some people are just naturally more "themselves" than others. Can the wallflowers overcome their fears, and even become great salespeople--even greater than those with natural ability? Of course. Will they? Most of the time, sadly not. They'll give up after a short time.

          In my experience, I've never found anyone who claimed to be a great copywriter AND designer. One or the other.
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        • Profile picture of the author TheBigBee
          Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

          I disagree... saying some things can't be taught is either a cop out for not being able to use your brain and learn, or a way to glorify yourself by saying you were born with special talent that other people can't match due to genetics.

          The human brain is a very powerful thing. The whole natural born talent garbage might be a good excuse for some people to be okay with mediocrity but I don't buy it.
          So you don't believe in the "left brain" / "right brain" stuff?
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          • Profile picture of the author bob ross
            Originally Posted by TheBigBee View Post

            So you don't believe in the "left brain" / "right brain" stuff?
            I learned to draw after reading "drawing from the right side of the brain" at 10 years old or so.
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            • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
              Originally Posted by bob ross View Post

              I learned to draw after reading "drawing from the right side of the brain" at 10 years old or so.
              Ahh.... Good ol Dr Betty Edwards.

              I'm a left handed / right brain dominant person, and have never needed any type of book to learn drawing. This is a drawing I did when I was 12.



              Heres another I did a few months later.



              The only reason I got her book was for the 3rd chapter, "Your Brain: The Right and Left of It". My psych professor gave it to me during glass (I was like 22 at this time at a uni), and I was so BLOWN AWAY by the "Spoon studies" that he wound up giving me the book. I still have it on my book shelf.

              "The studies done by Levy and Sperry found extensive evidence showing the mode of processing by the right brain is rapid, complex, whole-pattern, spatial, and perceptual - processing that is not only different from but comparable in complexity to the left brains verbal, analytic, linear processing mode".

              How they were able to trick participants by hijacking different hemispheres (right/left) was amazing. The study would take too long to paraphrase but I HIGHLY recommend that ALL left handed people read that study. It really proved that we might be 1 person, but every 1 person has 2 brains. And each hemisphere of our brain is in perpetual conflict with each other.

              She talked about how left handed / right brain people are terrible at keeping appointments. How they are always late, and have no interest in time. And I've been like that my whole life. I rarely ever look at the clock. I rarely ever keep track of time. But all 4 of my older brothers are right handed / left brain dominant and they're the complete opposite. They're always early for appointments, always keeping track of time.

              My entire life I always felt different just because I was left handed. I always perceived things differently than most people. I've always viewed things from both sides of the fence. If you told me a child molester was evil, I'd immediately look for reasons why that wasn't true. If you told me drugs were bad, I'd immediately look for reasons why they were good. If you told me prostitution was bad, I'd immediately look for reasons why it wasn't. I've been like this my entire life. Anything that people accept as "common knowledge" I have to challenge. And it makes me a very difficult person to debate things with.... because I rarely take sides on issues. Even if I agree with someone in principal I will still disagree with them. And I've never known why I do this type of crap.

              Then I read her book and she clearly states that left handed / right brain people have problems taking sides. They also tend to be less confident than right handed / left brain people. And its true. Because no matter what I think I believe, I'm always questioning my own beliefs in my head. I NEVER believe ANYTHING as the absolute "truth".

              And tbo, this could be my ego speaking, but I think being left handed / right brain dominant has given me a serious advantage in marketing. Because if I ever run into a problem, it is VERY EASY for me to find alternate solutions quickly. I don't just take criticism well but I LOVE criticism. I rarely if ever get "stuck" on any 1 idea or problem. I'm always looking for the larger picture and relying more on my intuition to work my way backwards. On the other hand, right handed / left brain thinkers tend to work forwards. They think in a linear, logical, straightforward way. It makes them better at math. But ask them to draw a picture or write a poem and their lost.

              Now obviously, there is no concrete link between being left handed and right brain dominant. Or being right handed and left brain dominant. You can definitely be right handed and right brain dominant. Its just nowhere near as typical as being left handed and right brain dominant. And there is a wide spectrum of variables in between. But we do know that left handed people tend to excel in arts. Noone ever taught me how to draw. From the first day I picked up a pencil my brain just knew how to do it. But NONE of my brothers were like this, and ALL of them suck at drawing.

              I didn't mean to turn this post into a long, self serving rant, but I've always found this topic extremely interesting. Because I have 4 older, right handed, left brain dominant brothers, and my ENTIRE LIFE I've been outcast as some weirdo. Not so much "weird" but different. Anyone who knows me on this forum knows I have a serious problem writing short posts. People call it weird (which I completely understand) but I think its equally as weird to write short 1 sentence responses all the time.

              Anyway, back on topic. The OP asked what you could sell for more, design or copywriting. And this is 1 topic I can take sides on pretty quickly. You can have the plainest looking site in the world, poor design, but good copy WILL drive sales. It will get right inside your prospects mind and turn on all the right switches. But if you have an awesome design, and terrible copy, I don't see you going far. I don't see the connection. Thus I don't see the value.

              -RS
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              • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

                Then I read her book and she clearly states that left handed / right brain people have problems taking sides. They also tend to be less confident than right handed / left brain people. And its true. Because no matter what I think I believe, I'm always questioning my own beliefs in my head. I NEVER believe ANYTHING as the absolute "truth".
                If you never believe anything as absolute truth then why did you make an absolute truth statement?

                I don't believe it to be true at all. I'm left handed and I have no problem taking sides, I also am not lacking in the confidence department whatsoever.

                Another case of correlation vs. causation.

                Are you the way you are because you're left handed? No. Left brained? no.. Right brained no.

                As science and psychology develop further it makes it easier for people to stretch inconclusive findings to explain why they have different faults instead of working to improve them. It's a cop out, and just the way our society is becoming less concerned about personal development.

                Left brain/right brain issue is a myth, it's never been anything more than that.

                Cool drawings though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kung Fu Backlinks
    @Jason

    I agree to a point. Certainly there are writers and designers with an edge because they have something special that others with just book-learning don't.

    But I do think a great deal of important / marketable skills can be taught/learned; there are university degrees offered in UX, after all. Not that the existence of a university program necessarily means the taught skills are marketable, but it is an indication that there is a great deal of material that can be learned.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kung Fu Backlinks
    ROFL!! This is great.

    Thanks for the laugh =D

    Ling is brilliant. I'm impressed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    Ewen that bad design is good design

    To the original question copy writing should make more money because it makes sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aaron Doud
    While some people may have a natural affinity for certain things anyone can learn anything given enough time.

    Yes some people will learn faster and some may start off better than other but in the end everything can be taught.

    I like to use Michael Jordan as an example. He was cut from his high school team at one point. You might ask how does the greatest basketball player of all time get cut? But you would be better served by asking, "how does a guy cut from his high school team go on to become the great basketball player of all time"?

    In that answer you will understand why he was and remains the greatest player of all time.
    In that answer you will understand how you too can becomes great at what you do.
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  • Profile picture of the author TeamBringIt
    Pages, with ugly design and awesome copy can pull some great results. I can't say that for pages with sweet design and horrible copy
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  • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
    The problem with selling design is that most people cant tell the difference between good design and bad design. You either have to find people that understand this or try to convince them of it. Any trying to convince someone they are wrong is a tough sell.
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    • Profile picture of the author iamchrisgreen
      Originally Posted by drewfioravanti View Post

      The problem with selling design is that most people cant tell the difference between good design and bad design.
      Do you mean clients? Or people that see the actual design?
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      • Profile picture of the author drewfioravanti
        Copy is the message and design is the presentation. Design is used to ensure the message gets noticed, to make it easy to read, to make easy to pick up on the important aspects, and to make it easy to see how to take action.

        Originally Posted by iamchrisgreen View Post

        Do you mean clients? Or people that see the actual design?
        Clients. They all think they know whats best. Unless you are dealing with people who already use professional writers and designers and know the value of them, you have to try to convince people they are wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Great design incorporates many different
    aspects on a web page which includes the copy.
    Together the two work in a synergistic manner and
    if you don't believe that you are sorely mistaken.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Great design incorporates many different
      aspects on a web page which includes the copy.
      Together the two work in a synergistic manner and
      if you don't believe that you are sorely mistaken.
      Copy can work without design though.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        True, that's why I said design first instead of copy. = )

        Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

        Copy can work without design though.
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    Some of the "best of the best" A list copywriters command $25,000 plus royalties for copy.

    I've yet to hear many designers who pull that kind of income... not saying they don't or it's not possible... I just haven't heard of them.

    The thing is... a business only survives with sales. A business can't exist without sales... and with some businesses... it's the copy that drives those sales. Not all businesses, but many.

    Personally, I think the job of the design is to make the copy stand out... so that it's absorbed better/easier. Design that takes away from the copy is not good design.

    but if I had to bet my house on the 2... copywriters would make more freelancing... especially if that copywriter has a lot of proof/results where they can show prospects how much money they've made for clients.

    With design, it's tough to say "my design made John Smith X amount of dollars"

    But with copy... you can say "my copy made John Smith $250,000"

    Since it's easier to quantify... should be easier to show the value of copy... therefore make more in fees.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Just saw a link to this on FaceBook and I thought I'd share it here as it's germane to the topic.

    How Typography Affects Conversions
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Red your drawings just brought back a memory.

    I used to draw as a little kid until the day I drew an accurate representation of my mentally disturbed math teacher who was always angry. This was in grade school so I was pretty young.

    I was proud of my drawing so I took it up to show him by leaving it on his desk. When he saw it he got up from his desk PISSED off, waded through the rows of desks in the classroom like a hot knife through butter until he reached my desk.

    He then proceeded to shred it to pieces in my face and didn't say a word.

    That was the last drawing I ever drew.
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    • Profile picture of the author misterme
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Red your drawings just brought back a memory.

      I used to draw as a little kid until the day I drew an accurate representation of my mentally disturbed math teacher who was always angry. This was in grade school so I was pretty young.

      I was proud of my drawing so I took it up to show him by leaving it on his desk. When he saw it he got up from his desk PISSED off, waded through the rows of desks in the classroom like a hot knife through butter until he reached my desk.

      He then proceeded to shred it to pieces in my face and didn't say a word.

      That was the last drawing I ever drew.
      I'm sorry to hear that stopped you. What a prick that guy was.

      I was pretty good at sketching caricatures and also caught the wrath from some of the teachers I drew. They were furious with me and threatened to have me expelled. Other teachers were delighted and amused by their caricatures and told me to ignore the idiots who got upset. My guess is those who didn't appreciate the drawings were in general not very happy people in the first place.

      It said more about them than about my merit.

      When I got to college, this ability to draw made me a very popular guy on campus. I drew for the school newspaper, making fun of everybody. So 3,000 people knew who I was. That was cool. My drawings of the College President involved in seriously stupid antics got me invited to his house for a soiree.

      Nowadays I don't draw very much at all, having turned to photography some years ago. But here's a little of what I used to do. See if you recognize these guys:



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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Awesome work! I especially like Bones, perfect!

        Originally Posted by misterme View Post

        I'm sorry to hear that stopped you. What a prick that guy was.

        I was pretty good at sketching caricatures and also caught the wrath from some of the teachers I drew. They were furious with me and threatened to have me expelled. Other teachers were delighted and amused by their caricatures and told me to ignore the idiots who got upset. My guess is those who didn't appreciate the drawings were in general not very happy people in the first place.

        It said more about them than about my merit.

        When I got to college, this ability to draw made me a very popular guy on campus. I drew for the school newspaper, making fun of everybody. So 3,000 people knew who I was. That was cool. My drawings of the College President involved in seriously stupid antics got me invited to his house for a soiree.

        Nowadays I don't draw very much at all, having turned to photography some years ago. But here's a little of what I used to do. See if you recognize these guys:



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  • Profile picture of the author akash47
    If you're good at what you do, there will always be a job opportunity for you. Good copywriters get paid A LOT if they find a good gig, but then so do good designers.

    I can tell you this though: it's easier to make it as an amateur designer than it is as an unskilled copywriter.
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  • Profile picture of the author AmericanMuscleTA
    The message is more important than the look!
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    • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
      The message can also be quickly and instantly communicated with the right design as well.

      Originally Posted by AmericanMuscleTA View Post

      The message is more important than the look!
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      • Profile picture of the author cosmopolitan
        Originally Posted by AmericanMuscleTA View Post

        The message is more important than the look!
        Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

        The message can also be quickly and instantly communicated with the right design as well.
        You are right Rus. The message and the look are both equally important. Both are attempting to increase emotional and logical receptiveness to the content(design + copy) and lower prospect anxiety towards taking a desired action. Great design builds "more" trust. Great copy builds "more" leads. If you don't trust your salesperson, he or she is going to have to work harder to persuade you. If you do trust your salesperson yet they have little to offer, you're in the same boat. Basically Great design is defense (lowering customer anxiety) and Great Content is offense (gaining more leads).
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      • Profile picture of the author AmericanMuscleTA
        Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

        The message can also be quickly and instantly communicated with the right design as well.
        Very true! I stand corrected.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    What speaks a 1000 words?
    ------------------------------
    I knew an artist studying web design.
    She was learning totally from the art point of view.
    While she could do pretty, I would not ever hire
    her for a business site of any type - especially if
    I wanted conversion. I think it will take forever
    for her to get out of the "art" mode.

    ----------------------------------

    As one who would hire a designer and a writer for a client
    project, it would be up to me to incorporate User Experience and
    Information Architecture. I would want the writer and the
    designer to be familiar with those concepts, conversion, etc....

    Dan
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    "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author mjbmedia
    Google has neither great design nor amazing copywriting, yet they make a few $million and are doing OK cos they got the solution, but I know that isn't your question Chris.

    For me design attracts prospects, proper copywriting makes them get their ccds out and spend
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    Mike

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