My 4000th Post: Why Price Is King and What This Means to Your Business Model

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Thanks to jamesfreddyc for wondering what ultra-valuable thing I would be giving away with this milestone, I spent a lot more time on this than I might have.

This content will be released as a Kindle report in the near future. It is entirely based on experience, not theory, and especially what I've learned from my mistakes over the past three years.

In January of this year I was tired out. Working with 30 to 40 clients a month was exhausting. My energies were splintered in so many directions I wasn't helping any individual client nearly as well as I knew I could. My calendar was booked wall to wall. Up to this point, I'd thought this was a good thing: after all, busy meant revenue-generating, right?

Wrong.

Turns out I was wrong.

This write-up will show you how wrong I was.

By tying myself up in little projects of low value, I couldn't really get transformative results for anybody.

It kept me plateaued at what would be a reasonable income for most people, but was disappointing for me.

And worst of all, I never seemed to get ahead. I felt like a dog treading water in a pool, barely keeping my head above water...but not improving my situation.

Work was no longer fun.

I spent a week or two rethinking my entire approach to business. This changed my business model. I have to admit the first couple months were scary. I had to completely turn off my conversations with and efforts to sell to a market I was very familiar with...and turn my attention solely to another market that was not familiar with me.

Since the beginning of March, though, I have made more money than I did the whole of 2013. And I did it helping one to four clients a month--that's it. My lifestyle completely changed. Oh, I'm still living in the same place...but what I can afford has jumped. I have profits that enabled me to hire expertise I could only dream of before. The idea, for instance, of doing what an April and repeat client of mine did and hire strategist Rich Shefren at $2000 an hour is totally reasonable now. There's no 'gulp' factor.

This transformation has been personal. I have experienced it myself. No theory here: this comes straight from my life.

Sometimes I get frustrated with myself because I am so outwardly focused I easily see what my clients should do, but miss things I should do myself. I feel like the shoemaker whose kids have falling-apart footwear; I think I'm going to take another couple weeks off and redo my own marketing and funnels.

Because that's been another huge thing. I've had much more downtime...which is a great helper. You can't learn new things if you're busy fulfilling all the time. Since I've focused on only a handful of clients a month, I have achieved amazing results for them. There's a fine line to self-promotion in this forum; I'll stay away from examples here.

So let's get into this report. I call it

Get It Right the First Time:
The Consultant's Ultimate Guide to Pricing and Business


Here's why I wrote this report:

I ran into a big problem after a couple of years running my own consulting business. And I saw many of my clients, and people who followed me who ran their own consulting businesses had the same problem, too.

We were all “successful” by the common definition of the term. We had plenty of clients. We were known in our marketplaces. We were good at what we did. We had products or services that did what they were supposed to do. Why, then, were we:

* Overworked

* Split in too many directions

* Not able to make a stellar difference for any one client

* Too worried about money—cashflow, revenue, bank account level

* Discouraged that the future would simply be more shovelfuls of the present

and even thinking about quitting?

If you're in this situation right now, you're not alone.

Surprisingly, these are all symptoms of one specific problem. This whole mess is the result of not pricing your services correctly. That's the one change you can make to fix these issues.

I have to warn you, though: this fix comes at a price of its own.

You will have to choose your clients much more carefully.

You will have to plan your future more consciously.

You will have to concentrate on getting transformative results for your clients.

If you're ready to do that, then join me in this report.


ONE

If you're just starting your consulting business, you have really lucked out.

This isn't some baloney theory you've stumbled across here: it's part of a high ticket training I'm developing. In fact, the main reason you have this report at all is that I need to write it down. That enables me to be clear about my thinking, and what's actually going on.

You have to use your brain.

People struggle with this. Me, too. I'm not saying I'm exempt. Hoping someone else will solve your problems for you is enticing. The idea that you can buy a Done-For-You product that'll fix everything is very attractive. But real change doesn't work that way. You have to do it yourself. Invest in yourself. Carry out the work yourself. Think for yourself.

Otherwise it just won't stick.

So get ready to use your brain. Yes, I can hear that Homer Simpson “Awwoohhhh...” groan. But if you want the results, that's part of the price.


TWO

People usually want to ask me about “closing techniques” first. This is wrong. Closing is the LAST thing you want to do. It's the final step in the process. If you haven't set things up right earlier in the funnel, you'll discover that even becoming better at closing won't help you. Your business won't make more money. All you'll do is spin your wheels.

The problem is much farther up the line. If you've already got plenty of customers yet are feeling worked to death, you know what I mean. If you're brand new to consulting, imagine this: your prospective clients (“prospects”) want what you offer for cheap. They don't much value what you do, and you aren't great at showing them how your approach and results are different. So I teach you how to close some of them. Your experiences are painful. People complain about the cost, are difficult to deal with, and you're having to keep track of so many of them it's hard to focus on really helping any. You scrape by doing the bare minimum, and that's the result you get for your clients. You really become worth what they're paying...not a whole lot.

If I teach you how to close more of them, what is this going to accomplish? Accelerating your misery, that's what. A high activity level is not an indicator of success.

So...

Let's start with Price.

That's what this report is about.

You're a consultant now. And with that mantle comes an hourly billable rate, right?

Mistake #1.

When you started your business—and even as every new month begins—what do you tell yourself about your income? “Let's see how much I can get.” Right?

Mistake #2.

Just about everyone makes this two mistakes. I did as well! And you know what? They will sink your business.

Heck, you don't need anything else, to sink your business!


Let's look at Mistake #2 first. What's wrong with “As much as I can get” as your revenue target?

Captain Obvious reports that it's not much of a target, is it. Certainly not specific. And to manage we must measure. If you don't have a number, you can't measure it quantitatively. So if you don't define your target income, you can't manage how you'll get there.

You're leaving everything to chance.

Tell me, does leaving your income to chance sound like the right move to you?

The stress or enjoyment you feel, the clients you get, the people you talk with, the projects you are involved with, the money in your bank account...they all go back to Price.

Tell the world out loud how important you now realize Price is, right now.


Let's look at the typical pricing models and how they lead you to starvation.

HOURLY RATE MODEL

Having a billable hourly rate is very common. It's a terrible idea, but we'll get to that in a bit. For now, let's review how people commonly arrive at this number.

It's pure fiction.

First, what are competitors charging?

Find someone who's doing similar work to you, and find out what their rate is. With a few bits of comparison shopper data, we can average them out and come up with something “reasonable”, right? For instance, let's say you're a graphic designer and you find three local competitors. $20/hr, $30/hr and a real pro, $68/hr.

So you as a newbie, what should you charge? $25/hr? Go gutsy at $28?

“Reasonable” will keep you in the poorhouse.

Basing your income off someone else's, who doesn't have a clue what they're doing when it comes to making money, is lunacy. Don't you agree?

And how do you think they developed their hourly figure?

I said this is fiction, and fiction it is.


MONTHLY EXPENSES MODEL

You'll see this nonsense shared frequently, too. Total all your bills—housing, food, vehicle, etc.—and there's your minimum income requirement. Say it's $3000.

Now assume you'll be working a standard 40 hours a week. 40 x 4 weeks in a month = 160 hours. Divide the money total by the number of working hours and presto, your billable hourly rate.

3000 / 160 = $18.60 per hour.

Congratulations, you're broke.

In more ways than one.

There are so many things wrong with this model. Are you going to be able to bill all 40 hours? No. Many of those hours are going to be spent hunting for clients. How can you bill those? And will it really top out at 40 hours? Likely, you'll be spending a lot more than that in your business.

And what about unexpected expenses...your car breaks down...you have to buy a gift...you adopt a cat and it needs to be spayed. Where does this money come from?

You're in the hole already. You just don't know it yet. And every month that hole gets deeper.

Did somebody say taxes? You'd better be setting aside a standard percentage from every dollar made. This is a pretty dark hole.

And Heaven Forbid we should want to make a Profit! Where does that come from?

No, the Monthly Expenses model is a failure. It's missing so many parts you constantly end up dipping into savings or credit, and that's a road you do not want to start down.


COST-PLUS MODEL

The price figure in this model comes from adding up the costs of doing what you do, and adding a profit margin (the “Plus”) to get to the magic number.

So you have overhead: office, power, internet, phone.

Expenses: training, outsourced tasks, new laptop, courier fees.

Add all that stuff up. Of course, it's just an estimate. We won't know the true costs until the beancounters are done with the tallying-up, far in the future.

So you figure a project is going to take you 20 hours. All the costs you estimate to be associated with it total $750. Then you apply your “Plus”...50% is reasonable, right?

$750 + $375 = $1125.

This time you get a billable hourly rate of $56.25; much better. But it's still fiction. What relation does it have to the project—the problem you're solving? None beyond your hourly estimate.

And most time estimates I've seen over the past 20 years have been grossly understated. That hourly rate is, in actuality, going to drop down, down, down.


So we've looked at three common pricing models—remember, this is what everyone is actually doing—and gotten quite a range for you: $28, $18.60 and $56.25 per hour.

The methods can't even agree; their results are nowhere near one another!

Now to flip your mind about this whole idea of pricing.

Your price should not have anything to do with the number of hours you need to put in to the project. The time it takes you to do the work has zero, zilch, nothing to do with the solution.

Say you have a client with a problem that's costing them $500,000 a year.

You have fixed this kind of problem before, and know how to do it quickly. I'm talking in a few hours.

What should you charge?

What's fair?

Should you charge for three hours of your time at $56 per hour?

Is that fair? To you? For your expertise in solving a half-million dollar problem?

Just because you know a quick solution doesn't mean it's not worth very much. Look at the value you're creating in this situation. Don't you deserve to be rewarded for that?

Stop looking at it from the client's perspective. Or rather, look at it from the client's perspective of you solving the problem, rather than the time it takes you to do it.

Protect your expertise. It's the valuable thing you're selling. Never forget that.

You want to know what my price would be? In my opinion, you should charge between $25,000 and $50,000. Maybe even more. You're crazy if you're not.


The right PRICE fixes a whole bunch of problems.

It ensures you target the right prospects.

It ensures you only take on clients who have problems large enough that they can invest in your solution to fix it, and who value what you do.

It ensures you get projects that, in Tom Peters terminology, can be WOW! Projects...where you can make a real difference. And you can build a series of these to showcase your talents and grow your skillset, by deliberate choice.

It ensures you make enough money to cover your bills, pay your taxes and make a profit...and that spells R-E-L-I-E-F.

Are you with me now?


THREE

“As much as I can get” is no target at all. To manage we must measure, and if we can't measure because we're without a target there's no progress to manage.

So I want you to develop your target income. You can adjust this number as you go.

We went through the elements of your revenue target in the last section, though you may have missed it. There are three components.

Planned and Unexpected Expenses
Profit
Taxes.

If you don't build these into your target income figure, you will dig yourself deeper into that hole every month. Your savings, if you have any, will be consumed; then you'll move into credit. Sooner or later you'll crash and the business with be dead. Back to the job market for you.

I assume you want to avoid this fate and all the negative things with it.

So get your numbers together. ALL of them.

This process is surprisingly straightforward, but if it's so easy then why does nobody do it—or even think to do it?

Get a written budget. Figure out every Planned Expense: haircuts, rent, birthday presents, office supplies, internet bill, dog food, tires for the car. For the unexpected, you need a safety net of at least $1000 as soon as possible. The total Unexpected Expenses will vary depending on your lifestyle; there are many online tools to help you with this.

Profit is a real thing. You have to start thinking of it that way. Not as an ethereal, maybe-someday-if-I'm-lucky idea. It's real, and you plan for it. Don't wait for it. Built it right in. The total is up to you, but if I'm working I really want to be making a profit of at least half my typical monthly expenses every month. And that's LOW.

Taxes are dependent on the state you live in and the Federal government. Figure on at least 30% of the total of the Expenses + Profit figures you just came up with above.

Wow. Can you see how much you've been missing, and why it's been such a struggle every month? There's a lot of money here that hasn't been directed to come into your business.

Example:

Planned Expenses: $2500. Unexpected Expenses: $500 (for the safety net; can be removed after 2 months, and this will also lower the Taxes figure) + $300. Expenses Subtotal: $3300.

Profit: 50% of $3300, which is $1650. And remember, this is on the low end. It's less than $20K a year.

Taxes: $3300 + $1650 = 4950 X 30% = $1485.

Total Monthly Income Target: $3300 + $1650 + $1485 = $6435.


This total ensures you are COVERED. Barring totally catastrophic events, all your bills, surprises and taxes are completely taken care of...and you have a basic emergency fund, and a growing profit pile to use as you see fit. No more worrying.


FOUR

I'll bet you right now that this total above, and the one you're about to develop, is much higher than you had in mind before picking up this book.

In fact, it may be outside of your comfort zone. That's something we need to address now.

If that total figure makes you uncomfortable, acknowledge that fact. Being aware of it is the first step to overcoming it. Now realize that what looks like a lot of money to you is chump change to someone else. For the right customer, $6500 is a very small price to pay to solve their problem, and they make that number in a day's profit. Let me say that again: ONE client can meet your monthly revenue target.

If you've been living in the world of hundreds rather than thousands of dollars or even more, you're going to have to change your comfort zone. It's just too hard to try and serve enough clients at $250 or even $500 apiece to hit that $6500 target. I'm speaking from personal experience. The effort to prospect, qualify, sell and fulfill takes too much time and energy. There's a much better way.

And your new pricing will show it to you.


At the beginning of this report I said that people want closing techniques from me first. And that this is wrong. We looked at how closing more and more low quality, low revenue clients merely leads to more frustration. Not wealth. Not well-being. Not security.

If you didn't believe me then, I'm sure you agree with me now.

So how the heck are we going to find a $6500 client, Jason? Let's split it in half: even that is tough. TWO $3250 clients?!

Doing so is actually not that hard. But you do have to change the people you're talking to.

Continue to do the same thing as you have been until now, and you'll keep getting the same result.

No doubt you've heard that quote attributed to Einstein: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

So you are going to have to change your behavior.

I'm not talking about a personality transplant. I mean the activities you do on a daily basis, and who you do them with. Keep doing what you did with the same people you have been communicating with, and you'll continue to have low value clients. And be not only poor, but losing money every month.

Let's look at what you must be doing to hit that new revenue target.

First, it's obvious that, in the beginning at least, you are going to have to spend time finding those high value clients. Later on when you've learned where to look and who to talk to, it'll be easier. And you should be getting some referrals, too, at that time. But now, at the start, it's going to be time-consuming.

And time is one thing we do not have much of...and it's a fixed amount.

Say you won't work weekends: that leaves you 20 working days in the month.

And you have to fulfill your projects. That will take some days.

Still, if we don't have the clients we won't have any work to do, so prospecting and qualifying and selling should be our top priority, right? Well I'll give you a number which is an industry statistic. It's fact. To find the kind of clients that will pay you the money you need, you need to be spending 70 – 80% of your time prospecting.

Wow!

70 to 80%!!

How much have you been spending on this vital task?

5%? 10%?

No wonder you've been getting such poor results.

You see, you don't get to do what you love all day when you run your own business. As a consultant, especially at the beginning, you must spend your time finding great clients.

Later on this number will drop. Good leads from other sources will come in, and significantly reduce the time you need to spend on sales and marketing activities. But for now, this is almost all you'll be doing. You have to. You won't survive otherwise.

70% of 20 is 14. Fourteen working days, you'll be finding those clients.

That leaves you six to do fulfillment work.

Think about this. Deeply. Really consider it, in relation to our pricing figure.

$6500 / 6 = $1083 PER DAY you need to make when you're working, to hit your target.

Now if you're thinking you have to bear down, hunched over your desk and keep at it 16 hours a working day to earn this money, you're mistaken. Throw that mental picture out immediately.

Remember what I said above. It's the size of the problem that determines the the price of your solution, not the time or other resources it takes you to do it.

Start disconnecting time from money in your head.

You're not getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for your expertise.

What's common to you is unheard-of to others.

So when you're earning $1000 a day or more, YOU DESERVE IT. If you're not completely sold on why, we'll cover that in a bit.

For now, realize that if you're offering workshops, doing projects, or working on anything else, you don't wheel out the battletank for less than that figure. It's just not worth your time—and you won't reach your income target if you do.

Let me say that again: If you take on projects paying you less than the daily amount you must make with the very limited number of fulfillment days you have in your calendar, you will miss your revenue target. This is very important to your survival. You have to get it into your head that if you do work for less than that amount, especially if it takes you longer than a day, all you're doing is digging your own grave.

It's that serious.

This concentration of work does have many benefits. It forces you to focus. And it leaves you the rest of the month to find your clients.

Note that I am not saying “Take the rest of the month off.” This is not an excuse for laziness. But you don't have to rush. You know exactly what you have to do, and how long you have to do it. Parkinson's Law can't push its way in here.

So you have 14 days to find clients with 6 or fewer fulfillment days of work on projects paying you $6500 (or whatever your target income is).

How's that for clarity of purpose?

Clarity is usually what brings results.

Here's how you find those clients. It's very, very easy to get a prospect to say “Yes” to a project when the problem is ten or more times the solution. If your solution costs $6500, and the problem is worth $65000, you won't have much trouble. And if the problem is $130000 in size, even better. Your solution is best priced at 5 – 10% of the problem for maximum selling effect.

It can be higher, but that typically takes selling skill to pull off.

Are you starting to see how you can earn and deserve these fees? Look at the value you're creating for these people!

At the same time, notice how the fees you're able to charge are much higher than your competitors. The secret is to sell on Value, not price—or features and benefits.

Selling is a huge topic best left for another time, but I will give you one critical tool for identifying and selling to the clients you're looking for. It's called Monetizing the Problem.


FIVE

“If they say it, it's true. If you say it, you have to defend it.”
~Jason Kanigan

If I say, “I can get you 10 more clients a month,” how do you react?

With skepticism? “Prove it to me.”

And what if I get you to say, “I think you can get me 10 more clients a month”?

Well now it's true, isn't it. After all, it came out of your mouth. Not mine.

Any time we can get a prospect to figure something out on their own, rather than us saying it ourselves, we must do that. This is a very powerful thing. There's nothing unethical about it; after all, they said it themselves.

Trying to persuade or convince people of anything is a waste of time and energy.

Let's have the prospects persuade and convince themselves.

Ask the prospect what the average value of a sale is for them.

Then ask them how many sales they make a month now, typically.

Alternatively, you could ask what their monthly revenue is per month now. Divide this number by the average value of a sale, and you'll have their number of sales made during that time.

That's the baseline.

Now ask the prospect—do not tell; ask—conservatively, if you could wave a magic wand and get them more sales, how many more a month do they think they could get?

You'll discover this is much more effective than you saying how many new sales you could get for them.

There's no arguing. After all, they gave you the number.

Now if the number they give is too low, and you know you could easily achieve a better result, let them know. “That IS a conservative number, Ms. Prospect. Can I share with you that with businesses like yours, we've seen average results around $X?”

You're modifying now, and getting approval to do so—not telling or imposing your own number.

If your prospect says they have no idea, you can suggest a conservative number you know you can achieve. They key here is to be realistic and not pie in the sky. Ask if this number is OK for them. Do not proceed until you have a new increased sales figure they agree with.

Take this number and multiply it by the average sale value, and you'll have the bump in monthly sales resulting from your effort. Watch how the prospect reacts. Is this number impressive for them?

When considering Return On Investment, the payback period is an important factor. For how many months will your effort result in a bump in revenue for the prospect? My recommedation is a year for typical situations. But you see the situation in front of you. It could be just one month, say for a postcard campaign. That's fine. If you can extend that payback period, though, great. Some software programs I've sold have had a FOUR year payback period! In other words, the prospect agreed it was OK to attribute the bump in revenue every month for four years to this new software (custom college student records database). Now that was an impressive figure!

However, most people are comfortable imaging a year payback period.

For example, if I develop an online marketing campaign to drive traffic to a redesigned website and funnel, the prospect and I agree that a conservative 300 unit increase in sales of a $997 item is reasonable over the next year.

300 x $997 = $299,100, or just under $300,000.

To make investing in your solution a no-brainer for your prospect, price your solution at 5-10% of this revenue bump figure.

5% of $300,000 is $15,000.

If your prospect truly came up with the 300 unit increase number, they will have no trouble understanding the value in the $15K investment.

I want you to consider this $15,000 price tag in comparison to what you would have done the project for before you read this.

I'll bet you would have done some sort of hourly billing calculation. Figured $45/hr or $100/hr was what you're worth, compared to industry standards (and we talked about those and their value before, didn't we)...and estimated the time required to complete the project. Say 70 hours. 40 hours for the web design, 10 hours for the funnel, 20 more for copywriting. 70 hrs x $45/hr = $3150. At Even at $100/hr, you'd be at $7,000.

Look at how much money you've been leaving on the table. Think about how long you've been leaving it on the table for. YEARS.

Here's a video I made about Monetizing the Problem:


The value of the project doesn't come from the time it takes you to do it.

The value comes from the results!

And this leads to my final point:

It's easier to sell a high ticket item than a low ticket item.


SIX

For years, I believed and said “It's just as easy to sell a high ticket item as a low ticket item.” Over the past year, my experience has proven I was wrong.

It's easier to sell a high ticket item compared to a low ticket item.

And if you're in the consulting, coaching, luxury, or many other marketplaces, much more personally profitable, too.

If you're doing low end, commodity retail sales—like Walmart—then you're in a different ballgame...and I'm not talking to you.

But if you work with clients one on one, where every project is a little bit different, where you have to apply your brainpower, this is how you want to organize your business for maximum effect.

Price.

Let's go right back to Chapter One.

PRICE.

Price is THE most important factor in your business. Get this right, and everything else falls into place.

All you need is real skill and the ability to truly help people.

You know from Monetizing the Problem your solutions are valuable—more valuable than you have thought.

So start feeling totally comfortable charging the right amount for them.

Price.

The right price stops you from worrying about paying your bills.

The right price makes it possible for you to afford marketing for your own business.

The right price forces you to stop wasting your time with the wrong prospects.

The right price directs you to find and speak only with people you can really help and get amazing results for.

The right price filters Out struggling, failing prospects and filters In successful, action-taking prospects.

Who would you rather work with?

Here's the real secret: having a high price relative to the rest of your market attracts those prospects who are already doing well. They have money. When someone has money, is it a fight to get paid for your services? No! The struggling prospect is at death's door. For them to pay for your help, they have to figure out how. The already-achieving prospect has money. They simply hand it to you. No wrestling.

Understand how transformative this is. Instead of struggling for every order, you will seek out and convert people who have no trouble at all sending over large sums of money to you. This can NEVER happen with struggling prospects—but it's commonplace with achieving ones!

In Chapter Four, we discussed how much time you will need to invest in sorting. What's the payoff, though? Tremendous. Just one client like this can replace three, four, or even more difficult clients who are fighting to make ends meet. And you get paid right up front. So is it worth it? Of course.

Instead of having to do all your fulfillment work for many customers at in the same few days at the end and beginning of the month, which is when people make decisions, you can work at your own pace. Since you only need a small number (one to four) clients a month to hit your revenue target, you'll have all the downtime you need to recharge, get focused, and create truly remarkable results for them.

If you've been overwhelmed with far too many clients and not being able to get really great results for any of them, it's probably going to be tough to imagine how powerful this change is. When your energies are split in 20 or 30 different directions trying to serve so many clients, it's exhausting. I know. When you start the month having already made your revenue target figure, and all your bills are already paid, you are relaxed in a way you might not be able to feel yet. But once you get your first “big” client, it will totally change your life for the better—and after a few months of repeating this success, you'll find it impossible to go back to the old, struggling way of doing business.

So set your price, and start filtering by that price.

If 5-10% of a prospect's problem or opportunity is not at or above your price bar, move on. Find this out as soon as possible. Don't waste time with small fry. You can achieve this in four minutes or less—I do it over the phone all the time. People have no problem discussing these figures.

For instance, if your revenue target is $4,000 that is 5% of $80,000. In a real business, $80K is a small “bump” figure; you should have no trouble finding a prospect with that size of problem or opportunity. Before reading this report, though, I'll bet you would have been content to have charged a tiny amount for your services and fixing their issue. Now you know how to have the client arrive at the investment figure themselves, so there's no arguing.

Let's get a bit more ambitious. With a revenue target of $10K, you need someone with a $200,000 problem—or perhaps two clients with $100K opportunities. Again, not difficult to uncover...but you must put your prospecting time in as explained in Chapter Four.

Part of the problem here is you may have trouble believing you can close clients for these amounts. I caution you to remember that the way they buy is not the way you buy; the number you think of as “a lot of money” is not the number they think of as “a lot of money”. $10,000 might seem like a big number to you. To a profitable business, $10K is spare change. Lunch money. You can get them $200,000 with your solution? They're happy to hand the $10K over. Happy to.

Figure out your price.

Calendar your time so you spend most of your time finding and sorting through prospects to find the high value, achieving, already successful prospects.

Use the Monetizing the Problem tool to get them to come up with the numbers including the price.

Filter who you will take on as a client by price.

Enjoy your money.

Reinvest some of it in your business every month.

Keep it this simple.

##


I hope you got a lot out of this report. Go back and figure out your pricing. I want to see a bunch of action-takers run with this and really transform their lives.
#4th #business #king #means #model #post #price
  • congrats Jason.

    your input on this forum is appreciated

    esp. recently when a thread was on case studies ... and they should be here,

    and you then responded with a case study.



    Kirby
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9367245].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nathanjacobs
      Jason,

      Great post. Changed my mindframe completely.

      I am working with a client who is a bookkeeper and I have been thinking of a way they can get away from charging $25-30/hr. She's easily picking clients up, but of course will hit her max 40-60 hrs/week "working" quickly and she'd be stuck making that same amount if she couldn't hire help, etc.

      This got me thinking, she just saved a client $300,000.00 the other day because his former bookkeeper didn't think to deduct some expenses he coulda deducted to the tune of over $1 million so that money was gonna be paid to the IRS.

      Guess what she's made from this client so far. Around $500 in hourly fees.

      Of course the guy had no idea that his old bookkeeper made a mistake, he just hired her to do his normal bookkeeping. So, if she'd said I will look over your books and for every dollar I save you, I want 10% I am not sure he would have bit.

      But I bet clients that would are out there. She woulda made $30,000.00 at a 10% rate if she priced this way.

      It's a no brainer for her to attempt to find clients like this.

      What do you think of her situation? Would this be something smart for her to do in your opinion?
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by nathanjacobs View Post

        Jason,

        Great post. Changed my mindframe completely.

        I am working with a client who is a bookkeeper and I have been thinking of a way they can get away from charging $25-30/hr. She's easily picking clients up, but of course will hit her max 40-60 hrs/week "working" quickly and she'd be stuck making that same amount if she couldn't hire help, etc.

        This got me thinking, she just saved a client $300,000.00 the other day because his former bookkeeper didn't think to deduct some expenses he coulda deducted to the tune of over $1 million so that money was gonna be paid to the IRS.

        Guess what she's made from this client so far. Around $500 in hourly fees.

        Of course the guy had no idea that his old bookkeeper made a mistake, he just hired her to do his normal bookkeeping. So, if she'd said I will look over your books and for every dollar I save you, I want 10% I am not sure he would have bit.

        But I bet clients that would are out there. She woulda made $30,000.00 at a 10% rate if she priced this way.

        It's a no brainer for her to attempt to find clients like this.

        What do you think of her situation? Would this be something smart for her to do in your opinion?
        She'll have to rebrand herself not as an accountant but as a management consultant or money-saving expert who USES accounting skills to get results.

        That's the hurdle that needs to be overcome. Get hired as an accountant, be treated as a commodity. We're talking about perception here. Would you pay $15K (5% is so much more palatable in these situations--yet $500 compared to $15K is a ridiculously awesome revenue leap, isn't it) to a bookkeeping accountant to plug the holes letting money leak out of your business? Oh no, that doesn't make sense. But to a management consultant who uses accounting skills to fix these leaks? Sure!

        Note how KPMG, PriceWaterhouse Coopers, and similar companies position themselves. Are they accountants? Absolutely! Do they CALL themselves accountants? No way! They're "professional services firms". Now you know why.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        I'm willing to bet she could charge 10% of every dollar saved if she used that client as a case study as proof of her abilities! lol

        Originally Posted by nathanjacobs View Post

        Jason,

        Great post. Changed my mindframe completely.

        I am working with a client who is a bookkeeper and I have been thinking of a way they can get away from charging $25-30/hr. She's easily picking clients up, but of course will hit her max 40-60 hrs/week "working" quickly and she'd be stuck making that same amount if she couldn't hire help, etc.

        This got me thinking, she just saved a client $300,000.00 the other day because his former bookkeeper didn't think to deduct some expenses he coulda deducted to the tune of over $1 million so that money was gonna be paid to the IRS.

        Guess what she's made from this client so far. Around $500 in hourly fees.

        Of course the guy had no idea that his old bookkeeper made a mistake, he just hired her to do his normal bookkeeping. So, if she'd said I will look over your books and for every dollar I save you, I want 10% I am not sure he would have bit.

        But I bet clients that would are out there. She woulda made $30,000.00 at a 10% rate if she priced this way.

        It's a no brainer for her to attempt to find clients like this.

        What do you think of her situation? Would this be something smart for her to do in your opinion?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Great post Jason! I'm hoping that your kindle book addresses another very important factor to pricing.

    That factor is our own beliefs, the ones that trap us into believing we're charging to much or what we're doing isn't really worth that much money.

    It has a lot to do with self image/self esteem and to me this is a core issue that needs to be fixed before anything else in business.

    When it's fixed a persons whole mentality changes about what to charge and why their charging that much.

    Just my two cents.

    Thanks!
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Great post Jason! I'm hoping that your kindle book addresses another very important factor to pricing.

      That factor is our own beliefs, the ones that trap us into believing we're charging to much or what we're doing isn't really worth that much money.

      It has a lot to do with self image/self esteem and to me this is a core issue that needs to be fixed before anything else in business.

      When it's fixed a persons whole mentality changes about what to charge and why their charging that much.

      Just my two cents.

      Thanks!
      Thank you, Russ.

      Yes, I addressed this a bit in the post/report. Also in many previous posts about head trash...what we believe is "a lot of money" is spare change to someone else.

      You are right on in the observation that people must change their beliefs to move forward. If not, they'll always be secretly working against themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    Congrats on such a huge milestone, Jason. You certainly set a fine example in the forum for so many of us and thank you for sharing such precious nuggets.
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  • Profile picture of the author akazo
    Great post. But I bet we will still have at least one "how much do I charge" thread a week...
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Lee
    Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

    The right price stops you from worrying about paying your bills.

    The right price makes it possible for you to afford marketing for your own business.

    The right price forces you to stop wasting your time with the wrong prospects.

    The right price directs you to find and speak only with people you can really help and get amazing results for.

    The right price filters Out struggling, failing prospects and filters In successful, action-taking prospects.
    .
    Couldn't have said that any better myself. Good job on this one Jason, there's a lot of value here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    This is more than just a great post here with some good information that might help people do things a little better. It's blueprint on how to build a business that generates real wealth while increasing you're effectiveness in the work you do without killing yourself. And should ideally inspire a shift in the dominant cult mentality here that originated from the John Durham school of thinking. Make your business a glorified telemarketing operation where the only difference is you get to keep most of the profits, but where you'll never have the time on the fulfilment side because you'd be all day contacting strangers to sell for a few scalps a week

    That obviously served a purpose and was great at motivating action in newbies just to go out there and start selling and they are bound to score a few hits here and there. But higher level business smarts education and putting the focus on learning the skills to be a professional and how to put them to use, like this post contains, serves people much better.

    The selling online marketing to offline business market has become far more sophisticated and you need to be able to set yourself up properly to be able to be taken seriously in order to realize the potential to grow a highly profitable business, that is actual built on a real, quantifiable skillset, not self-anointed 'marketing expert' status. And that is all about getting exceptional results.

    Only yesterday I decide to double the price of more services and probably would have reneged on that if I hadn't have seen a way to be able to justify that to clients and present it in that way. Now I have absolutely no doubt or hesitation about doing so once I can show them the maths will add up.

    This is a truly great contribution to the forum and hopefully will raise the bar. Expertly written.

    Thanks Jason.
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesfreddyc
    Thanks to jamesfreddyc for wondering what ultra-valuable thing I would be giving away with this milestone, I spent a lot more time on this than I might have.
    Okay everyone... you can thank me later. heh.

    There is just so much you have given and not sure if there's enough thanks to go around. I've gained a ton from your contributions and this is an extra ton added on top. Thank you for your generosity and willingness to share with everyone! It's all very much appreciated, Jason!
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    • finally read the whole post.

      good work Jason.

      If you want or can, I have a question.

      regarding the mindshift and lifestyle shift you went through...

      and Underground's post of, and to paraphrase - "telemarketing cult mindset"

      what is your input on going from the ;

      salesperson to consultant
      I just sell it, no back end responsibility to I'm a consultant, not a low life salesperson or telemarketer

      I want "all the money I can get" vs. I can help, create win/win
      I want to help you vs. I want to sell you

      I'm on the phone calling you to see if I can help vs. not to interrupt your day to sell you something you don't need or want taking your time or money

      why price must be king vs. I'm not trying to just take your money

      from kirby
      who always has to complicate things with the psychology of our profession

      you dictate where you want this thread to go, Jason
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

        finally read the whole post.

        good work Jason.

        If you want or can, I have a question.

        regarding the mindshift and lifestyle shift you went through...

        and Underground's post of, and to paraphrase - "telemarketing cult mindset"

        what is your input on going from the ;

        salesperson to consultant
        I just sell it, no back end responsibility to I'm a consultant, not a low life salesperson or telemarketer

        I want "all the money I can get" vs. I can help, create win/win
        I want to help you vs. I want to sell you

        I'm on the phone calling you to see if I can help vs. not to interrupt your day to sell you something you don't need or want taking your time or money

        why price must be king vs. I'm not trying to just take your money

        from kirby
        who always has to complicate things with the psychology of our profession

        you dictate where you want this thread to go, Jason
        The way you or anyone chooses to prospect is your choice. Whichever method(s) you have figured out and optimized for yourself are fine.

        If you don't truly believe you can help your clients, you shouldn't be in the role. I'm saying that to the general audience, not to you specifically.

        If you sell something, you ARE responsible for the fulfillment of it...whether you believe so or not.

        If you aren't looking for Fit in your prospects--which I define as in three areas: Need (or Want), Budget (which Price is a standout factor of), and Personality; and if just one of these is missing, the prospect is Not A Fit--then you are plainly asking for trouble.

        I'm not sure I fully understand what you're asking, Kirby. I teach my clients and anyone following me on this forum to sort well and make sure you only get into business relationships that will be beneficial for both sides. Why would I want to sell something to someone who doesn't really Need or Want it? That will only lead to buyer's remorse. Why would I want to sell something to a person who doesn't have a problem big enough to justify my solution? That would be a rip-off. Why would I want to sell something to a prospect with a bad personality--anger issues, wanting immediate 3AM email updates, talks out of both sides of their mouth? That will be like letting an ax murderer into my home.

        If I can't truly help someone, what chances do I have of getting a great review or testimonial? Or referral?

        There are plenty of prospects out there: I am going to find out whether this one is a Fit or not within a few minutes. I am not going to waste my time or theirs if it's not. And I am going to find a Good Fit prospect within a relatively short time, because they ARE out there already...and I am going to pre-qualify my list to maximize the chances they have Need and Budget Fit already--before I make the call. Then all I need to do is confirm the first two, and dig for Personality fit or lack thereof.
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        • from Jason

          "There are plenty of prospects out there: I am going to find out whether this one is a Fit or not within a few minutes. I am not going to waste my time or theirs if it's not. And I am going to find a Good Fit prospect within a relatively short time, because they ARE out there already...and I am going to pre-qualify my list to maximize the chances"


          awesome!

          thanks
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
            Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

            from Jason

            "There are plenty of prospects out there: I am going to find out whether this one is a Fit or not within a few minutes. I am not going to waste my time or theirs if it's not. And I am going to find a Good Fit prospect within a relatively short time, because they ARE out there already...and I am going to pre-qualify my list to maximize the chances"


            awesome!

            thanks
            Maybe I'm starting to see what you were asking about? You can confirm or say I'm off the mark.

            I had these same requirements for Fit beforehand.

            The same ones. Need, Budget, Personality.

            The problem was in MY head. Did they have Need? Absolutely. Budget? Well now here's where I got into trouble. The Price I would go to work for (which is directly related to the size of the problem, and the ability of the prospect to pay for the solution) was way too low. And Personality? There are a couple other key factors than Being Nice. Willingness and ability to Do As Directed, for one. Many people were not willing to do so.

            Now as you increase your Price, you're saying something to the market. Does that make sense? Not just "I am expensive," which is how the newbie or scared person sees it. Because to the right prospect, you are not expensive. When the prospect has a sufficiently large problem, and they know it, your services are a steal. And they want to let you do it your way--not be an armchair expert. Every mediocre client I've had has tried to "do it better" (clip out sales process steps, write their own Frankenstein Monster sales copy) and failed.

            My problem in making the leap was I did not know for certain--I intellectually knew it, but not in my bones--that these potential clients with larger problems I could solve were out there. This false belief/lack of certainty, and my unwillingness to let go of a mediocre income stream I knew how to handle held me back for a year at least.

            Is this what you're struggling with?

            The salmon are already out there. They even have predictable behavior! I know I will not find them in the desert. I know I won't find them on the mountain. I know I won't find them in the jungle, either.

            But I do know I can encounter them in the ocean, and at a certain time of the year in specific rivers.

            And just one salmon is worth ten or more small, bony fish. All that energy I used to have to expend on finding, catching and cleaning ten or more difficult-to-work-with fish I can use on catching a single tasty one. Make sense?
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
    Excellent post, Jason!

    I have some questions, though. What exact methods would you be using to generate this increase in customers for these businesses? Telemarketing? Direct mail? SEO? Paid advertising? Something else? All of the above? Would you charge an additional expense fee for advertising costs?

    I'm asking that because I've thought of offering something like this in the niche I sell physical products to, but I don't see how I could target leads or customers for this particular market.

    Also, do you offer any type of guarantee? Do you use a contract? Do you close face to face or do everything over the phone?

    I'm interested in learning more. Thanks in advance.

    Joe
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
      Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

      Excellent post, Jason!

      I have some questions, though. What exact methods would you be using to generate this increase in customers for these businesses? Telemarketing? Direct mail? SEO? Paid advertising? Something else? All of the above? Would you charge an additional expense fee for advertising costs?

      I'm asking that because I've thought of offering something like this in the niche I sell physical products to, but I don't see how I could target leads or customers for this particular market.

      Also, do you offer any type of guarantee? Do you use a contract? Do you close face to face or do everything over the phone?

      I'm interested in learning more. Thanks in advance.

      Joe
      You're jumping ahead to the solution? Move off the solution.

      When I meet with a prospect, I don't know what the solution will be. I have a bunch of tools in the toolbox, but I have no idea which, if any, are a fit for this prospect. I am always ready to walk away if I discover it's not a fit. And I will find out in four minutes or less.

      All the concerns you have at the end of your post there are things people have in their heads because they're worried about the size of the project. "Oooh this seems to be a large amount of money to me, so I'm uncomfortable." Do you believe you can get results for your clients? Do you know it in your bones?

      You are mentally complicating things. We have a conversation; it ends either in Not A Fit or them sending me a payment.

      Exactly how I do what I do is what I share with my clients. I can't summarize a $14,000 program here. But you might want to look up my free training available in this forum, because I have shared the process many times. People are looking for the Easy button, though, so they overlook the process in their search for the magic Close.

      I know you have been on the forum a long time, Joe, and have seen these posts. But you may not have known WHAT you were seeing. I know over the years I've asked people questions, and sometimes when they're telling me the answer I have interrupted because it seemed like they were going off track--and they said, "I AM telling you the answer."
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      • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        You're jumping ahead to the solution? Move off the solution.

        When I meet with a prospect, I don't know what the solution will be. I have a bunch of tools in the toolbox, but I have no idea which, if any, are a fit for this prospect. I am always ready to walk away if I discover it's not a fit. And I will find out in four minutes or less.
        This is what I'm not understanding. I get the part about crunching the numbers and finding out if it's a fit from a financial standpoint. What I don't get is how you intend to reach their market in order to deliver on the promise.

        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        All the concerns you have at the end of your post there are things people have in their heads because they're worried about the size of the project. "Oooh this seems to be a large amount of money to me, so I'm uncomfortable." Do you believe you can get results for your clients? Do you know it in your bones?

        You are mentally complicating things. We have a conversation; it ends either in Not A Fit or them sending me a payment.
        I'm actually very comfortable with my ability to prospect and close people. The formula you've shared would even make it easier. I'm just saying okay, I've closed this guy, I have a check in my pocket for $10k and have promised him apx 20-100 new customers per month. I'm just wondering exactly how you'd achieve this? You said you'd know in 4 minutes whether it was a fit or not, but other than qualifying them financially I'm not seeing how you intend to keep your part of the bargain. Make sense?

        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        Exactly how I do what I do is what I share with my clients. I can't summarize a $14,000 program here. But you might want to look up my free training available in this forum, because I have shared the process many times. People are looking for the Easy button, though, so they overlook the process in their search for the magic Close.
        Would you mind sharing a thread that explains what you're referring to in a bit more detail? I know I'd appreciate it.

        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

        I know you have been on the forum a long time, Joe, and have seen these posts. But you may not have known WHAT you were seeing.
        That's entirely possible. Honestly, I don't recall. I may not have been looking for it at the time either. There are very few threads where I actually have the time to read every post. It's just too time consuming. I tend to skim through unless I see something that directly pertains to me at the time.

        As I said, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could point it out.

        Thanks.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
          Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

          This is what I'm not understanding. I get the part about crunching the numbers and finding out if it's a fit from a financial standpoint. What I don't get is how you intend to reach their market in order to deliver on the promise.
          The solution is beyond the scope of what we're talking about here. It could be anything. Flying helicopters over the target market's part of the city, and dropping leaflets onto their lawns. Sending a herd of elephants through town square with monogrammed blankets on their backs directing viewers to the client's website. I don't know. It doesn't matter. The client doesn't care HOW you do it (and these two methods are just as outlandish as running an ad campaign on something called "Facebook")--they care about results!

          Move off the solution.

          Often I don't have to reach their target market. That's their job. I concern myself with conversions. But if I had to outsource PPC or other leadgen, I would because I know who to send that work to. Odds are I wouldn't charge for that portion, though...I'd send the client directly. "If you touch it, you own it."

          Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

          I'm actually very comfortable with my ability to prospect and close people. The formula you've shared would even make it easier. I'm just saying okay, I've closed this guy, I have a check in my pocket for $10k and have promised him apx 20-100 new customers per month. I'm just wondering exactly how you'd achieve this? You said you'd know in 4 minutes whether it was a fit or not, but other than qualifying them financially I'm not seeing how you intend to keep your part of the bargain. Make sense?
          So with Monetizing the Problem you got them to give you the numbers, or were able to provide a number they didn't fight about, or adjust theirs, right? The key here is the word CONSERVATIVE.

          If you don't know for certain what you can accomplish, don't do it!!!

          When I take on a project, the numbers are so low (to me) that I know without a doubt I can accomplish it. Take this woodworking shop. Average billing, $40,000. Can I get him just ONE customer in the next three months? Do ya think?!

          And that fully justifies my mid-four-figure fee.

          Do we need a guarantee? Of course not. Do we need anything in writing? Why?

          The owner and I both know full well we're going to close MORE than a single new customer from this online funnel, and that he's going to have a permanent filtering system up front now. Is that not worth far more than the fee I charged?

          I'm happy, he's happy.

          Look at how the variables in this situation are set up. A single customer represents a notable increase in revenue. Those are odds I like. Same thing with the TV show case study. I set it up so that just one sponsor would pay for getting the show on the air. Choose situations where it's easy for you to get wins. I know I'm good at conversions, so I sort for clients who are ALREADY competent at filling their funnel.

          I suspect you think the prospect knows as much as you do. They do not. They are not thinking about what you're thinking. I'm not saying prospects are dumb; I'm saying their attention is elsewhere, not on your concerns.

          Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

          Would you mind sharing a thread that explains what you're referring to in a bit more detail? I know I'd appreciate it.
          http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...t-selling.html

          Use your filtering skills to get involved with projects you know will be a success--and decline projects that you know will be a failure. Pretty different from the "Let's take anything we can get" option, huh?
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          • from Jason

            I suspect you think the prospect knows as much as you do. They do not. They are not thinking about what you're thinking. I'm not saying prospects are dumb; I'm saying their attention is elsewhere, not on your concerns.

            it starts in our heads (mind)

            you did answer my previous post with this:

            The salmon are already out there. They even have predictable behavior! I know I will not find them in the desert. I know I won't find them on the mountain. I know I won't find them in the jungle, either.

            But I do know I can encounter them in the ocean, and at a certain time of the year in specific rivers.

            thanks, jason
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
            Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

            I suspect you think the prospect knows as much as you do. They do not. They are not thinking about what you're thinking. I'm not saying prospects are dumb; I'm saying their attention is elsewhere, not on your concerns.
            That would be an incorrect assumption. I completely understand it.


            Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

            Use your filtering skills to get involved with projects you know will be a success--and decline projects that you know will be a failure. Pretty different from the "Let's take anything we can get" option, huh?
            I completely agree. People that don't fit the criteria would be a waste of time.

            My only point was that I'd want to have a solid plan in place first. That's just me. I don't like flying blind, especially if my reputation is on the line. I can easily go in and "talk the talk" and get a check. But I'd want to be sure I could "walk the walk" before I did that. Because on the off chance I couldn't come through I'd potentially create headaches that I don't need.

            I'd want to have enough research done on the market I was targeting where I could create a customer profile and know in advance what their pain points are. I might pay to do some advertising and offer an incentive in order to have a survey filled out so I can gather more detailed information. I could spend $200-300.00 and get some very valuable data that would help me determine if I could follow through on my promise or not. By doing this, if the market did meet certain criteria, I'd not only know what their pain points are, but I'd also have a list that I could promote to right out of the gate and I could continue to grow it.

            I like what you're doing and how you're going about it, to a point. I just think that it's risky if you don't have a proven way to fulfill your promise in advance.

            I'm not challenging your expertise. Please don't take it as such. No disrespect intended. It's just that I've been in the sales/marketing game for nearly 25 years myself and when I see something that I'm unsure about I question it. I've seen you do the same thing.

            In all fairness, you did say that this part of the training was outside the scope of what you were teaching in the original post. I just kind of feel like as good as the post was, it feels incomplete. Maybe that's just me?

            Best,

            Joe
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            • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
              Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

              That would be an incorrect assumption. I completely understand it.




              I completely agree. People that don't fit the criteria would be a waste of time.

              My only point was that I'd want to have a solid plan in place first. That's just me. I don't like flying blind, especially if my reputation is on the line. I can easily go in and "talk the talk" and get a check. But I'd want to be sure I could "walk the walk" before I did that. Because on the off chance I couldn't come through I'd potentially create headaches that I don't need.

              I'd want to have enough research done on the market I was targeting where I could create a customer profile and know in advance what their pain points are. I might pay to do some advertising and offer an incentive in order to have a survey filled out so I can gather more detailed information. I could spend $200-300.00 and get some very valuable data that would help me determine if I could follow through on my promise or not. By doing this, if the market did meet certain criteria, I'd not only know what their pain points are, but I'd also have a list that I could promote to right out of the gate and I could continue to grow it.

              I like what you're doing and how you're going about it, to a point. I just think that it's risky if you don't have a proven way to fulfill your promise in advance.

              I'm not challenging your expertise. Please don't take it as such. No disrespect intended. It's just that I've been in the sales/marketing game for nearly 25 years myself and when I see something that I'm unsure about I question it. I've seen you do the same thing.

              In all fairness, you did say that this part of the training was outside the scope of what you were teaching in the original post. I just kind of feel like as good as the post was, it feels incomplete. Maybe that's just me?

              Best,

              Joe
              So you think I'm going to give everything away for free that I teach? Saying "it's not complete" is a pretty unfair complaint. I don't see anyone sharing as much as I do here.

              Again, I'm not going to cover a full sales training program in one or a few posts. What I've given away on this forum is what sales trainers typically charge thousands of dollars or more for.

              I don't get into anything I don't know how to fulfill.

              What you're talking about, I would handle by doing the Monkey's Paw...getting a down payment to do the research. You don't get my work for free. Putting the avatar together and everything else is part of what I get paid for. No unpaid consulting. You've gotten a couple hours of my time today for free...I've violated my own rule because that's what we do on this forum. But out there in the real world...

              It's your job to be able to competently fulfill a product or service...BEFORE you ever try to get a client. There's no mystery here.

              As a copywriter, should I refuse to take on clients and products or services I haven't worked with before, because I haven't yet written successful sales copy for them?

              That even sounds silly.

              Either I believe I can help them, or I don't.

              Every sale of this type is conceptual, not technical. Even if I sell a custom sign for a business, that's conceptual, too. There is no sign in existence at the time of the order. It gets created out of wood and metal and paint afterwards. "Show me my sign..." I can't. I could show you a drawing of it, or a computer draft image of it, but not the real thing. Some people are uncomfortable with this.

              How about airtime for radio commercials? There's no proof this advertising will be effective...you have to DO it to find out. And there are so many variables outside of the station's control--like the commercial's script.

              Again, empty air. That's what conceptual selling is about. Selling is a conceptual not technical process. You sell to who you believe you can sell to, what you believe you can sell. If that concerns you, you should probably stick to sales of physical goods. But you're still doing it...

              Now, should you walk away from something if the client did their part and so did you, but it fizzled? I would rather not. I would like to continue until we make the prospect's investment back at least. But the way I choose my clients and projects, it is easy to make money.
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
                Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                So you think I'm going to give everything away for free that I teach? Saying "it's not complete" is a pretty unfair complaint. I don't see anyone sharing as much as I do here.
                I was being honest. It's not complete. You said so yourself when you said that the stuff I was referring to was outside the scope of the post.

                Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                Again, I'm not going to cover a full sales training program in one or a few posts. What I've given away on this forum is what sales trainers typically charge thousands of dollars or more for.
                Fair enough. All I did was ask a few questions. I have no problem with you not answering.

                Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                I don't get into anything I don't know how to fulfill.

                What you're talking about, I would handle by doing the Monkey's Paw...getting a down payment to do the research. You don't get my work for free. Putting the avatar together and everything else is part of what I get paid for. No unpaid consulting. You've gotten a couple hours of my time today for free...I've violated my own rule because that's what we do on this forum. But out there in the real world...
                This is what I mean. The above statement is outside the 4 minute qualification you described. As far as saying "You've gotten a couple hours of my time today for free" goes, that's an unfair statement. You made a post in a public forum in an open thread and I asked a few questions. If you'd been more direct by saying what you said immediately above and below this paragraph in the first place, my questions would have been answered.

                Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                It's your job to be able to competently fulfill a product or service...BEFORE you ever try to get a client. There's no mystery here.
                No need to continue the conversation. Case closed. Thanks for the information.

                Joe
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Jason,

      Wanted to first say that was a really good piece. There are aspects of my business that applies to and others it does not. But I thought you made the distinction very clear.

      Joe,

      I personally sell product. I sell services as well such, as web design and SEO and offline marketing. The pricing structure that Jason is sharing does not really apply to what it is I do, and or what you are thinking of moving into. There are without question some common elements and things to learn from the post. But actually using the concept in full would fall short.

      I look at my pricing structure on an hourly basis. if it takes 10 hours to complete a task, I had better be making $1000+ ( Yes I charge a minimum of $100 an hour ). I personally deal with set tasks per se. I know pretty close how long they take and what is involved. Jason's method on the other hand, if he were to do the same, it would either A price him right out of the market, or B he would cut himself way short.

      As an example his post about the TV Show Producers. He got his clients what they needed, but it took training more than one person, and the process drew out for probably longer than Jason had anticipated. However, Jason reached the objective, and everyone was happy.

      So the question at hand is HOW do you deliver results. As in the case stated above, the result was getting a corner stone advertiser for his clients. ( Just one was all that was needed ) For ME... results depend on what it is the client wants and signs up for. My higher end packages do Provide a Guarantee. Depending on the client that could be number of walk ins, or total sales growth or new leads. Again it is dependent on the client.

      HOW can I provide that Guarantee? I implement a system that I have worked on for years. I know if I implement X I will get a rough Z result. If I implement W, X, and Y, I will get this rough Z result.

      But getting back to what Jason was sharing. He is in no way sharing how to GET the results, but how to price for the results. That piece that lay in the middle, is for you to determine. Every client is as much so the same as different, so there are considerations for each and everyone.

      THAT is where the 4 minute sizing concept comes into play. Can and will that Prospect fit into my system. Will I be able to provide the results that the client needs?

      Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

      Excellent post, Jason!

      I have some questions, though. What exact methods would you be using to generate this increase in customers for these businesses? Telemarketing? Direct mail? SEO? Paid advertising? Something else? All of the above? Would you charge an additional expense fee for advertising costs?

      I'm asking that because I've thought of offering something like this in the niche I sell physical products to, but I don't see how I could target leads or customers for this particular market.

      Also, do you offer any type of guarantee? Do you use a contract? Do you close face to face or do everything over the phone?

      I'm interested in learning more. Thanks in advance.

      Joe
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        Jason,

        Wanted to first say that was a really good piece. There are aspects of my business that applies to and others it does not. But I thought you made the distinction very clear.

        Joe,

        I personally sell product. I sell services as well such, as web design and SEO and offline marketing. The pricing structure that Jason is sharing does not really apply to what it is I do, and or what you are thinking of moving into. There are without question some common elements and things to learn from the post. But actually using the concept in full would fall short.

        I look at my pricing structure on an hourly basis. if it takes 10 hours to complete a task, I had better be making $1000+ ( Yes I charge a minimum of $100 an hour ). I personally deal with set tasks per se. I know pretty close how long they take and what is involved. Jason's method on the other hand, if he were to do the same, it would either A price him right out of the market, or B he would cut himself way short.

        As an example his post about the TV Show Producers. He got his clients what they needed, but it took training more than one person, and the process drew out for probably longer than Jason had anticipated. However, Jason reached the objective, and everyone was happy.

        So the question at hand is HOW do you deliver results. As in the case stated above, the result was getting a corner stone advertiser for his clients. ( Just one was all that was needed ) For ME... results depend on what it is the client wants and signs up for. My higher end packages do Provide a Guarantee. Depending on the client that could be number of walk ins, or total sales growth or new leads. Again it is dependent on the client.

        HOW can I provide that Guarantee? I implement a system that I have worked on for years. I know if I implement X I will get a rough Z result. If I implement W, X, and Y, I will get this rough Z result.

        But getting back to what Jason was sharing. He is in no way sharing how to GET the results, but how to price for the results. That piece that lay in the middle, is for you to determine. Every client is as much so the same as different, so there are considerations for each and everyone.

        THAT is where the 4 minute sizing concept comes into play. Can and will that Prospect fit into my system. Will I be able to provide the results that the client needs?
        You have some good points there.

        I do want to take issue with your "price myself out of the market" idea. I have sold many, many things for far more than the typical market price.

        I've sold websites for tens of thousands of dollars.

        I've sold email sequences for three times what the next bidder was charging.

        I've sold power generation and control equipment at much higher prices than competitors.

        Pricing yourself around what your competitors are charging is precisely what I'm arguing against.

        Will you not get some orders because of higher pricing? Probably. But while one person is running around trying to find and close five or ten $1000 websites, I will look for one $8000 or $10K project. It will not be a standard design project; it will have customization and expertise required. And I will get it. I will be much more relaxed about money, and my time will not be tied up. I had no idea how useful downtime was until I got some. I can focus on making that one client's results stellar, and instead of yet another boring project, it will be a unique one that advances my knowledge.

        There are customers for whom price is not the main concern. Something else is. Delivery. Quality. Additional features not present in competing models. Reliability. Specific expertise. A shorter, easier Implementation phase. And sometimes, just having your company do the work--prestige.

        In many cases the price is what you say it is as the vendor.

        One of my top clients is a web designer who closes projects at the $10K a month level. He and I have spent a lot of time over the past 6 months discussing pricing with this strategy I shared, and we both use it. No hourly model.

        You were right about the TV show project. If it had been for a prospect I didn't know, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved because the short term profit didn't justify my solution. However, I'm glad I did because it got me past some headtrash about the locals, and gave me the opportunity to close my own project.

        Strategy in business is not always about ROI. It can be about getting A to be able to get at B, which leads to being able to do C. For instance, getting to work with Company Y to get name association that leads to being taken seriously by Firm Z, so that you can do work on Project X.

        For some reason, everyone wants to work on Project X
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          You have some good points there.

          I do want to take issue with your "price myself out of the market" idea. I have sold many, many things for far more than the typical market price.

          I've sold websites for tens of thousands of dollars.

          I've sold email sequences for three times what the next bidder was charging.

          I've sold power generation and control equipment at much higher prices than competitors.

          Pricing yourself around what your competitors are charging is precisely what I'm arguing against.

          There are customers for whom price is not the main concern. Something else is. Delivery. Quality. Additional features not present in competing models. Reliability. Specific expertise. A shorter, easier Implementation phase. And sometimes, just having your company do the work--prestige.

          In many cases the price is what you say it is as the vendor.

          One of my top clients is a web designer who closes projects at the $10K a month level. He and I have spent a lot of time over the past 6 months discussing pricing with this strategy I shared, and we both use it. No hourly model.

          You were right about the TV show project. If it had been for a prospect I didn't know, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved because the short term profit didn't justify my solution. However, I'm glad I did because it got me past some headtrash about the locals, and gave me the opportunity to close my own project.

          Strategy in business is not always about ROI. It can be about getting A to be able to get at B, which leads to being able to do C. For instance, getting to work with Company Y to get name association that leads to being taken seriously by Firm Z, so that you can do work on Project X.

          For some reason, everyone wants to work on Project X
          Jest let me start with saying I was not going to reply to this thread, because what you and I do are 2 seperate things. I didnt not want to create any amount of confusion or headbutting as it were, on the method you are sharing ( a VERY valid method and way of thought ) And place in in contrast to what it is I do.

          MY business is almost Marketing business is almost entirely ROI driven. I Guarantee to provide results. ( again above a certain pricing level ) I am by no means the cheapest Web Designer in my area, or even my greater area that covers the Pittsburg Market as an example. But I can charge what I do based on the VALUE of my Guarantee.

          To clarify my Guarantee for all who are reading this. you spend X amount of dollars with my company and you will get X amount in increase. This turns my services into free.. basically. SO if I go into a $60,000 SEO project, there is a time limit that I have to show ROI of the $60,000. If I take on a contract for 100 websites at $1500 each, My client is going to get $150,000 in ROI within a set time frame. ( and yes these are real examples )

          To give you an idea, I am not billing $10,000 a month, that's more a weekly number for me. and that is JUST with the web design aspect. If you were to have your web guy break down that $10,000 a month. or $2500 a week. How many hours is he working to get that? I am sure its more than 25. The number looks good - Hey Im making $10,000 a month, but going back to the basis of the OP.. there has to be a better way!

          So should he charge more? should he look at where he can be more efficient? or in the 4 minutes is he second guessing "the perfect fit" and stretching?

          I am going to say something right here that may shock a few of you. Is it better to sell one site at $5000 or 5 at $1000? If they are the exact same thing - well of course the one site. but if the $5000 site is incrementally more time consuming and challenging to complete, the 5 $1000 sites would be easier, less time consuming AND more profitable.

          I am currently working on a $20,000 site. Big stuff. My hourly once the project is done - if im lucky it will be $75 an hour. Heck do one of those a month and you are golden. The problem I have been looking at since late last year. I can build $1500 - $2000 sites in about 10 - 15 hours or so. ( the $20,000 is going to be close to 300 man hours once its said and done ) My hourly goes up considerably and my overall work load goes down. So for the same amount of TIME the $20,000 site is just that, and the smaller sites are at $30,000+ ( I will accept the argument that not everyone ok very few - myself included even mid last year did not have this kind of client flow that I have right now to make this comment viable )

          We wont even get into the liabilities you run into with the higher dollar jobs that require scripting and such. As of late Wordpress and WooCommerce have been changing code at a feverish pitch, and its my job to ensure my clients sites work.

          Also forget the fact of all the years I was writing shopping cart scripts, and now am having to go back and make them meet banking requirements and the like. ( sure it pays, but it is time consuming low profit work - I have been pushing a great number of these clients into new build vs patching )

          Web design does NOT in anyway align itself with Consulting stratagies IT IS an hourly based job. Just as the Accountant that was mentioned in this thread. there are max limits that get met, or you increase your work force )

          I think REGARDLESS of what you do, and you are looking at your MONTHLY number.. and not paying attention to a more basic HOURLY number, you are missing some vital information. If you have no clue how much TIME is spent with each client, again you are doing YOURSELF a dis service. This is the DATA you need to determine your worth, and what it is you should be charging!
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            Jest let me start with saying I was not going to reply to this thread, because what you and I do are 2 seperate things. I didnt not want to create any amount of confusion or headbutting as it were, on the method you are sharing ( a VERY valid method and way of thought ) And place in in contrast to what it is I do.

            MY business is almost Marketing business is almost entirely ROI driven. I Guarantee to provide results. ( again above a certain pricing level ) I am by no means the cheapest Web Designer in my area, or even my greater area that covers the Pittsburg Market as an example. But I can charge what I do based on the VALUE of my Guarantee.

            To clarify my Guarantee for all who are reading this. you spend X amount of dollars with my company and you will get X amount in increase. This turns my services into free.. basically. SO if I go into a $60,000 SEO project, there is a time limit that I have to show ROI of the $60,000. If I take on a contract for 100 websites at $1500 each, My client is going to get $150,000 in ROI within a set time frame. ( and yes these are real examples )

            To give you an idea, I am not billing $10,000 a month, that's more a weekly number for me. and that is JUST with the web design aspect. If you were to have your web guy break down that $10,000 a month. or $2500 a week. How many hours is he working to get that? I am sure its more than 25. The number looks good - Hey Im making $10,000 a month, but going back to the basis of the OP.. there has to be a better way!

            So should he charge more? should he look at where he can be more efficient? or in the 4 minutes is he second guessing "the perfect fit" and stretching?

            I am going to say something right here that may shock a few of you. Is it better to sell one site at $5000 or 5 at $1000? If they are the exact same thing - well of course the one site. but if the $5000 site is incrementally more time consuming and challenging to complete, the 5 $1000 sites would be easier, less time consuming AND more profitable.

            I am currently working on a $20,000 site. Big stuff. My hourly once the project is done - if im lucky it will be $75 an hour. Heck do one of those a month and you are golden. The problem I have been looking at since late last year. I can build $1500 - $2000 sites in about 10 - 15 hours or so. ( the $20,000 is going to be close to 300 man hours once its said and done ) My hourly goes up considerably and my overall work load goes down. So for the same amount of TIME the $20,000 site is just that, and the smaller sites are at $30,000+ ( I will accept the argument that not everyone ok very few - myself included even mid last year did not have this kind of client flow that I have right now to make this comment viable )

            We wont even get into the liabilities you run into with the higher dollar jobs that require scripting and such. As of late Wordpress and WooCommerce have been changing code at a feverish pitch, and its my job to ensure my clients sites work.

            Also forget the fact of all the years I was writing shopping cart scripts, and now am having to go back and make them meet banking requirements and the like. ( sure it pays, but it is time consuming low profit work - I have been pushing a great number of these clients into new build vs patching )

            Web design does NOT in anyway align itself with Consulting stratagies IT IS an hourly based job. Just as the Accountant that was mentioned in this thread. there are max limits that get met, or you increase your work force )

            I think REGARDLESS of what you do, and you are looking at your MONTHLY number.. and not paying attention to a more basic HOURLY number, you are missing some vital information. If you have no clue how much TIME is spent with each client, again you are doing YOURSELF a dis service. This is the DATA you need to determine your worth, and what it is you should be charging!
            Then I think your prices aren't high enough. The websites you make are worth far more than that. They produce an ongoing income for much longer than the ROI period, don't they.

            At a point a price based on the size of the problem surpasses what you would earn at an hourly rate, or your costs. I charge an amount that I'm comfortable with no matter how many hours it takes. Of course I track how many hours it takes. But like in inventory management, the "bathtub" model (volume in vs volume out, rather than concentrating on individual units) is very effective. Remember, I work with only 1-4 clients a month now. That's an important distinction between what you and I are doing. My hours are not fully booked, and I do not want them to be. You're looking at the situation wanting your employees to be fully booked, and that makes sense. But it might not be the only way to view it.

            We have a bunch of people on this forum struggling to make ANY money month to month. I am showing them how to think about their business. The screening conversation doesn't have to be 4 minutes; I am able to do it that quickly but even if it takes you 20 it doesn't matter. The point is to be LOOKING for Fit and not just taking anything that comes along, because that is the road to trouble.

            If the investment for doing the project resulting from Monetizing the Problem is under my minimum requirements, I decline. The prospect can pay the premium if they want my involvement, but that's their choice. I will tell them whatever it came out at, it's too low to justify my solution.

            I was business development manager for a full service IT firm. We sold custom database driven solutions, EDI and ecommerce sites and many other kinds of solutions that required expertise. This kind of project was $60K+, sometimes a lot more than that, and usually took three or four months to complete. Sometimes we did the custom patching to get the accounting software to talk with the inventory program to talk with the CRM. I know all about this world. We billed in monthly milestones.

            I don't have to worry about the race of hourly costs racking up against what I charged. I'm not sure you do, either.

            I can see what you are saying about easy, quick turnover design jobs. But now we are in the commodity universe. You're doing exactly what I'm arguing against and are in the hourly mindset. You don't have to be. How could you have your prospects see you as unique? What can they get from you they can't get from another designer/developer? (I think a designer who thinks about and promises ROI is pretty darn valuable).

            The strategy I am talking about here IS probably best for a consultancy and not a job shop-type operation with many employees--I imagine over five or six. However, I am certain you could apply it in your business and make even more money. Think of each worker bee as a profit center rather than a cost. (I have already figured this out, but it'll be more effective if you do before I tell you).
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            • Profile picture of the author 9999
              Great post that came at the right time, thanks for posting this!
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            • Profile picture of the author savidge4
              Jason,

              Like I have said a few times now, the reason I was staying off this thread ( if at all possible ) was EXACLTY the reason that we are talking about now. Yes what you and I do are different. I do look at things differently, I do have "Employees" ( I call them "Partners" and they get paid as such )

              Then I think your prices aren't high enough. The websites you make are worth far more than that. They produce an ongoing income for much longer than the ROI period, don't they.

              This statement is VERY true. I agree to a point. Be it if you are in business for yourself, or your are climbing a corporate ladder, stability in growth is your friend. One job here one job there sucks, and living month to month is even worse. So with this I have developed a plan to OVER deliver. Over delivery does a few things for you. #1 the client you have worked for, is actually going to start looking at other options within their own experience that they can bring to me to bring to life. #2 They are going to refer. #3 They come back and want MORE from what they already have.

              THIS is a solid business foundation, or at least FOR ME this is working REALLY well. Again not bragging. I grossed low 7 figures the last few years. My vision is to grow into the 8 figure arena. How do you do this? build a base of LOYAL clients, that understand YOUR worth to them. From this base that is where growth takes off.

              At a point a price based on the size of the problem surpasses what you would earn at an hourly rate, or your costs. I charge an amount that I'm comfortable with no matter how many hours it takes. Of course I track how many hours it takes. But like in inventory management, the "bathtub" model (volume in vs volume out, rather than concentrating on individual units) is very effective. Remember, I work with only 1-4 clients a month now. That's an important distinction between what you and I are doing. My hours are not fully booked, and I do not want them to be. You're looking at the situation wanting your employees to be fully booked, and that makes sense. But it might not be the only way to view it.

              I am sure it is not the only way to look at it, correct. But again we are in a sense comparing apples to oranges. you are consulting and I am moving commodity. In the OP you stated there is a difference. you and I understand that. What started this whole conversation was me stepping in and attempting to help in the clarification between the 2.

              We have a bunch of people on this forum struggling to make ANY money month to month. I am showing them how to think about their business. The screening conversation doesn't have to be 4 minutes; I am able to do it that quickly but even if it takes you 20 it doesn't matter. The point is to be LOOKING for Fit and not just taking anything that comes along, because that is the road to trouble.

              I am a HUGE fan of what you have labeled the 4 minute screen. I get it, I HAVE to use it to make MY system work the way that it should. A stretch of a match for me can drop the hourly return in half quickly. Again in my game there are only so many hours in a week to work, and any glitch that causes over run of time.. well it doesn't cost me money, it just adds stress and stress sucks!

              If the investment for doing the project resulting from Monetizing the Problem is under my minimum requirements, I decline. The prospect can pay the premium if they want my involvement, but that's their choice. I will tell them whatever it came out at, it's too low to justify my solution.

              I am right there with you. The most important part of seeking new clients is knowing when to say "NO" Knowing your limits, and what you can provide is key. getting a client just to get one can and will only hurt you in the long run.

              I was business development manager for a full service IT firm. We sold custom database driven solutions, EDI and ecommerce sites and many other kinds of solutions that required expertise. This kind of project was $60K+, sometimes a lot more than that, and usually took three or four months to complete. Sometimes we did the custom patching to get the accounting software to talk with the inventory program to talk with the CRM. I know all about this world. We billed in monthly milestones.

              Aside from all of my individual efforts I have been a contracted programmer for many a Govt contract, so I am right there in understanding what a multi Million dollar 2 and 3 year project entails. Budgets are monsters with these type of jobs.

              I don't have to worry about the race of hourly costs racking up against what I charged. I'm not sure you do, either.

              I do and don't on this point. Does it hurt that I fall short and run over budget on a project or 2 well no. But if there is a pattern, I need to look at what is creating the issue and how and what I can do to resolve it on my end. Be it looking my client match process, or simply needing to charge more for the area causing some issues.

              I can see what you are saying about easy, quick turnover design jobs. But now we are in the commodity universe. You're doing exactly what I'm arguing against and are in the hourly mindset. You don't have to be. How could you have your prospects see you as unique? What can they get from you they can't get from another designer/developer? (I think a designer who thinks about and promises ROI is pretty darn valuable).

              Here is where you and I will rub heads til the cows come home. a $60,000 job that takes months vs 30 $1500 jobs. I am doing the 30 in 2 weeks. ( and getting home early I might add ) This is not about being an elitist programmer, this is about PROFIT. I just showed you the math I look at. This is the exact math that has placed me on the path that I am on right now towards 8 figures. Again breaking down your work efficiency to an hourly sheds light. You can have the $60,000 project X's.

              The strategy I am talking about here IS probably best for a consultancy and not a job shop-type operation with many employees--I imagine over five or six. However, I am certain you could apply it in your business and make even more money. Think of each worker bee as a profit center rather than a cost. (I have already figured this out, but it'll be more effective if you do before I tell you)

              Again this is where the gap is... and I want people to understand that what Jason has shared in the OP is right on the money. The points I am sharing are very commodity driven. And not just that, I have been in this "Game" for over 18 years. I am not just starting out, I have had my ups and downs, and the system I use is learned over these many years.

              The strategy as I have pointed out a bit clearer in this post is NOT for everyone. Probably not for most. I am on a path of exponential growth, and not just creating an income. I am in NO WAY shooting down or otherwise what Jason has shared. His post is simply a great model to follow.
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              • from Jason (OP)

                FIVE

                "If they say it, it's true. If you say it, you have to defend it."
                ~Jason Kanigan


                Jason,

                do you find yourself having to "pull" these #'s out of a prospect?

                seems like it can be a test of patience and a rush just get to the sale/close,

                without them verbalizing the figures.

                and then you end up "defending" and going back to that discussion about what sales increase they could get!???
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                • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                  Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

                  from Jason (OP)

                  FIVE

                  “If they say it, it's true. If you say it, you have to defend it.”
                  ~Jason Kanigan


                  Jason,

                  do you find yourself having to "pull" these #'s out of a prospect?

                  seems like it can be a test of patience and a rush just get to the sale/close,

                  without them verbalizing the figures.

                  and then you end up "defending" and going back to that discussion about what sales increase they could get!???
                  Perhaps I shouldn't have included Monetizing the Problem in this post, since it is distracting people away from the Pricing concept that is its true purpose. But it is related and I needed more content for the report.

                  Why would I have to defend anything? Why would I get myself into a situation where I have to defend numbers? Isn't the whole point of what I said NOT to do this?

                  I find the way you write, and don't take this the wrong way, because I appreciate your posts, a bit confusing. Ideas seem about 2/3 expressed. Please explain more. Are you saying YOU find yourself rushing?

                  Some people know their numbers; others do not.

                  If they know them, and they don't want to lie or conceal, they'll share.

                  If they want to lie or conceal, what does this say to you about their intentions and view of salespeople?

                  For me, it's an opportunity to elevate the field of selling by halting the Monetizing process and questioning them about their views until we have unraveled whether I should continue talking to them or not.

                  In a qualifying conversation, patience is PRECISELY what you want to express. It takes as long as it takes. Because I know which questions to ask and am following a consistent process, it is quick for me. But if it takes other people longer, it's no big deal.

                  If they cannot give me numbers because they don't know them, as above I will suggest what I think is reasonable and conservative and get their feedback. If resistance is high, why would I stick with that number?

                  If the planned revenue bump is too low, it won't justify my fee and I won't get involved.

                  So if a prospect is playing games, which is fortunately pretty rare, and trying to drive the revenue bump figure down low to get a lower price out of me, it will kill the opportunity and that's fine with me.

                  Once we have a conservative revenue increase figure, THEY agreed to it and if they change their minds later, it's simple to find out why. Again, if the number drops to below warranting my involvement, that will kill the project and I'm fine with that.

                  If I'm going to be told No, I want to know now. Not later. I want to put in as little energy as possible into qualifying and get to No as fast as I can. A few more minutes now is well worth it compared to fighting on the back end.

                  Prospects almost always have *some* number that will help, like average sale value. It's never an argument. But if a prospect really didn't know any of their numbers, I'd probably walk anyway because that demonstrates a total lack of management acumen and I don't want to associate with that.

                  Let's consider a contrast:

                  A typical salesperson enters the prospect's office and immediately jumps into a features and benefits dog and pony show. They give the price. Then they sit and wait for the prospect's feedback. Then the two of them fight over objections and rebuttals.

                  I enter the prospect's office and sit down. I look at them. I confirm our Up Front Contract on how the meeting is going to progress and what the alternative outcomes will be. I ask if anything has changed. There are a lot of pauses. I look at them. I don't rush. I ask them questions about their business. We find out if we're a fit. Only THEN, if they are a fit, do they qualify for a demonstration or presentation...which I will customize for their behavioral type, while the typical salesperson has run their one-size-fits-all presentation that only sells to one type. I get a Yes or a No immediately. No fighting.

                  Who do you think gets better results with less stress?

                  An impression may be that I qualify in four minutes, give them the price, and get out of there. No. I qualify in a few minutes to decide WHETHER I SHOULD SPEND MORE TIME WITH THEM OR NOT. More discovery occurs. I ask many more questions. I find out a lot more about their business.

                  But if the problem is so small it doesn't justify my fee in the first place, why should I continue being their doctor? All I would be doing is giving my expertise away as an unpaid consultant.
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                  • Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                    Perhaps I shouldn't have included Monetizing the Problem in this post, since it is distracting people away from the Pricing concept that is its true purpose. But it is related and I needed more content for the report.

                    Why would I have to defend anything? Why would I get myself into a situation where I have to defend numbers? Isn't the whole point of what I said NOT to do this?

                    I find the way you write, and don't take this the wrong way, because I appreciate your posts, a bit confusing. Ideas seem about 2/3 expressed. Please explain more. Are you saying YOU find yourself rushing?

                    Thanks for this feedback. Not a content writer, but will focus on being precise and concise

                    Some people know their numbers; others do not.

                    If they know them, and they don't want to lie or conceal, they'll share.

                    If they want to lie or conceal, what does this say to you about their intentions and view of salespeople?

                    For me, it's an opportunity to elevate the field of selling by halting the Monetizing process and questioning them about their views until we have unraveled whether I should continue talking to them or not.
                    This is a great description, and what i was getting at (salesperson vs. consultant ).

                    In a qualifying conversation, patience is PRECISELY what you want to express. It takes as long as it takes. Because I know which questions to ask and am following a consistent process, it is quick for me. But if it takes other people longer, it's no big deal.

                    I tend to get impatient, then loose in the long run because I can't put the prospect back "into his own words" when I'm asking for the sale)

                    If they cannot give me numbers because they don't know them, as above I will suggest what I think is reasonable and conservative and get their feedback. If resistance is high, why would I stick with that number?

                    If the planned revenue bump is too low, it won't justify my fee and I won't get involved.

                    So if a prospect is playing games, which is fortunately pretty rare, and trying to drive the revenue bump figure down low to get a lower price out of me, it will kill the opportunity and that's fine with me.

                    Once we have a conservative revenue increase figure, THEY agreed to it and if they change their minds later, it's simple to find out why. Again, if the number drops to below warranting my involvement, that will kill the project and I'm fine with that.

                    If I'm going to be told No, I want to know now. Not later. I want to put in as little energy as possible into qualifying and get to No as fast as I can. A few more minutes now is well worth it compared to fighting on the back end.

                    Yes. Love this part!

                    Prospects almost always have *some* number that will help, like average sale value. It's never an argument. But if a prospect really didn't know any of their numbers, I'd probably walk anyway because that demonstrates a total lack of management acumen and I don't want to associate with that.

                    Let's consider a contrast:

                    A typical salesperson enters the prospect's office and immediately jumps into a features and benefits dog and pony show. They give the price. Then they sit and wait for the prospect's feedback. Then the two of them fight over objections and rebuttals.

                    I enter the prospect's office and sit down. I look at them. I confirm our Up Front Contract on how the meeting is going to progress and what the alternative outcomes will be. I ask if anything has changed. There are a lot of pauses. I look at them. I don't rush. I ask them questions about their business. We find out if we're a fit. Only THEN, if they are a fit, do they qualify for a demonstration or presentation...which I will customize for their behavioral type, while the typical salesperson has run their one-size-fits-all presentation that only sells to one type. I get a Yes or a No immediately. No fighting.

                    Who do you think gets better results with less stress?

                    An impression may be that I qualify in four minutes, give them the price, and get out of there. No. I qualify in a few minutes to decide WHETHER I SHOULD SPEND MORE TIME WITH THEM OR NOT. More discovery occurs. I ask many more questions. I find out a lot more about their business.

                    A process of elimination, not high pressure and hyped sales lingo they have heard before

                    Like you said, it's a mindset

                    But if the problem is so small it doesn't justify my fee in the first place, why should I continue being their doctor? All I would be doing is giving my expertise away as an unpaid consultant.





                    I will try and be more precise and write less to communicate better.

                    when you focus on #'s with a prospect, you shift away from a "salesperson" to "consulting".

                    so your point is....

                    What are you worth? What is your solution worth?
                    And equally important, what is your time worth?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                      Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

                      I will try and be more precise and write less to communicate better.

                      when you focus on #'s with a prospect, you shift away from a "salesperson" to "consulting".

                      so your point is....

                      What are you worth? What is your solution worth?
                      And equally important, what is your time worth?
                      LOL I'd like you to write MORE not less.

                      Time is not really a factor in what I've been talking about in this thread. The idea is actually to separate your time from the money you're charging...because the value you are creating has nothing to do with how long or short a time it takes you to do the work.

                      Look at that accountant mentioned above. $500 billable for saving a client a million bucks?! Crazy. Who cares how much time it took her to do it; her expertise makes it take a short time, so why should she be PENALIZED for having that expertise...instead of some grunt idiot spending a thousand hours trying to figure it out instead? (Just to get you thinking.)

                      You set your revenue target and then filter like crazy to make sure you hit it in one or two shots. I would make sure you can fulfill your product/service in a few days, sometime over the following month, but it really doesn't matter how long it takes as long as you are comfortable with it.

                      Are you going into some kind of canned sales pitch? Filter for Fit. Find out why they want to buy, if so. Match that reason up with what and how you do what you do, if they match (and they should, since you got Fit).

                      Look up the term Mirroring in regards to selling; this may help you. Summarize what you thought you heard the prospect say ("So...you're saying you have a problem with your current cleaning crew being a real hassle, because at night you're running the call center but that's when the cleaners work?"). Read-Feed-Lead. ("I don't suppose that means if a cleaning crew was available during times when your office wasn't running, that would make a difference for you?")

                      (That was a Negative Reversal, an advanced selling technique, for those who pay attention to such things.)

                      A couple quick search results:

                      What is Mirroring?

                      Does Mirroring Work in the Age of Social Selling? | Sales Solutions Blog

                      Yes, when I walk into a prospect meeting or get on the phone with one, I am just as ready to sell them as qualify them Out. Out is fine. No problem. You don't have need for what I offer? OK, Out. You don't have a problem big enough to warrant my involvement? Fine, Out. You have personality that's going to cause friction and trouble between us going forward? Good to know now rather than later, Out. All great reasons to qualify them Out. And the faster you can do this, the less energy you will expend. This is why I say "Qualify with as little emotion as possible." Can you control whether they're a Fit or not? Of course not! So don't stress about something out of your control. Just run your process.

                      You know what the biggest problem usually is?

                      Not enough prospects being put through the filter.

                      That's what leads to desperation. "I HAVE to close this one, because it's all I've got." Mistake. Talk to more people. Get more leads, however you go about it. Filter MORE.

                      THEN once you have someone qualified IN, you can get excited and sell.

                      But this is also why starting with as best a pre-qualified list you can is most effective.

                      Qualify First, Sell Later.
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                      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                        Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                        Time is not really a factor in what I've been talking about in this thread.
                        I am having a hard time with this concept. In MY world there are basically only 2 variables in life. There is "Time" and there is "Money" These 2 variables are in effect interchangeable as well as being dependent on one another.

                        These variables as interchangeable means that you either A have the time to do something. or B if you are short on time, you must be willing to spend money to get what ever it is done.

                        As a business, time takes on a monetary value. With my business as I have stated before, My hourly rate is in the $100.00 per hour range. If you are requesting just MY time, well that bills out a higher rate.

                        As an example, My company offers a Marketing Analysis package. We go over the full spectrum of a companies Advertising. Be it web, print, TV, radio right down to in house signage etc. We look at things such as cost and effectiveness of each etc and this basic package runs about $500.00. This same exact package with what appears to be MY focused personal involvement goes for $1000.00. Pretty much the same work being done. ( same people doing the work ) I do usually throw in a bit more focused employee interaction through the means of a Company meeting where I ask a lot of questions etc. Im usually out the expense of coffee and donuts on these deals! ( ha )

                        ( the reason for the discrepancy here is the fact that I spent way to much time early on in my business Branding MYSELF and not the business - Basically a costly mistake when it comes to my local business )

                        The point I am driving here is that my time, or my companies time has a value. If I am getting into something that I can not put a time figure on, hence a price tag, especially a consulting gig, I charge HOURLY.

                        With the things that I deal with, and I will use SEO as an example. My general sales pitch is saving the client money. In doing so I have an understanding what they are spending to get traffic etc. I then place MY value and what it is I can cut their bottom line by ( remember I have that silly guarantee I use ) I can then determine based on my experience how much time is going to be needed, and If the value IE price that I am going to be offering the client is worth my time. IE is there enough meat on the bone to go after.

                        From what I am understanding by what you are saying is that you are suggesting well I can get $10,000 from this client. that's good enough for me to act on. Forget the fact that it will take 2 months and you will have 300 hours into it.

                        It may be that I am missing something here. It may be that the services that I provide are more time consuming? but somehow somewhere something is not adding up for me.

                        I guess I try to maximize the many hours in a day I work. ( I just so happened to look over my last months time report and I had a whopping 5 hours of work time that was not directly accounted to a client - I had the worst untracked time percentage in my company - everyone got lunch. Ok I was hungry, and it sounded like a good excuse to bring food in the office!

                        I think for me the REAL issue is I am a workaholic. How many clients can I work at the same time. You are working for 3 to 4 clients a month. I will tell you what I think that is GREAT. ( must be nice ) I personally would be looking at how I could maximize my time, and bring on more clients and make MORE money... but again there it is; Time vs Money.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                          I am having a hard time with this concept. In MY world there are basically only 2 variables in life. There is "Time" and there is "Money" These 2 variables are in effect interchangeable as well as being dependent on one another.

                          These variables as interchangeable means that you either A have the time to do something. or B if you are short on time, you must be willing to spend money to get what ever it is done.

                          As a business, time takes on a monetary value. With my business as I have stated before, My hourly rate is in the $100.00 per hour range. If you are requesting just MY time, well that bills out a higher rate.

                          As an example, My company offers a Marketing Analysis package. We go over the full spectrum of a companies Advertising. Be it web, print, TV, radio right down to in house signage etc. We look at things such as cost and effectiveness of each etc and this basic package runs about $500.00. This same exact package with what appears to be MY focused personal involvement goes for $1000.00. Pretty much the same work being done. ( same people doing the work ) I do usually throw in a bit more focused employee interaction through the means of a Company meeting where I ask a lot of questions etc. Im usually out the expense of coffee and donuts on these deals! ( ha )

                          ( the reason for the discrepancy here is the fact that I spent way to much time early on in my business Branding MYSELF and not the business - Basically a costly mistake when it comes to my local business )

                          The point I am driving here is that my time, or my companies time has a value. If I am getting into something that I can not put a time figure on, hence a price tag, especially a consulting gig, I charge HOURLY.

                          With the things that I deal with, and I will use SEO as an example. My general sales pitch is saving the client money. In doing so I have an understanding what they are spending to get traffic etc. I then place MY value and what it is I can cut their bottom line by ( remember I have that silly guarantee I use ) I can then determine based on my experience how much time is going to be needed, and If the value IE price that I am going to be offering the client is worth my time. IE is there enough meat on the bone to go after.

                          From what I am understanding by what you are saying is that you are suggesting well I can get $10,000 from this client. that's good enough for me to act on. Forget the fact that it will take 2 months and you will have 300 hours into it.

                          It may be that I am missing something here. It may be that the services that I provide are more time consuming? but somehow somewhere something is not adding up for me.

                          I guess I try to maximize the many hours in a day I work. ( I just so happened to look over my last months time report and I had a whopping 5 hours of work time that was not directly accounted to a client - I had the worst untracked time percentage in my company - everyone got lunch. Ok I was hungry, and it sounded like a good excuse to bring food in the office!

                          I think for me the REAL issue is I am a workaholic. How many clients can I work at the same time. You are working for 3 to 4 clients a month. I will tell you what I think that is GREAT. ( must be nice ) I personally would be looking at how I could maximize my time, and bring on more clients and make MORE money... but again there it is; Time vs Money.
                          Keep doing what you're doing; it works for you.

                          We already discussed this, and as I said in the original post before we ever talked about it, I am not addressing commodity products or services here. However, I do think talking about this is valuable as contrasting approaches.

                          In my original post, I was very clear that you only take on projects you can complete in a short time. Since there is so much filtering that has to be done, that leaves maybe 5 or 6 days for fulfillment. Most of the projects I do require an hour of work a day. That's it. (I am not saying I work an hour a day; I'm saying each project typically takes an hour a day of "work"...sometimes there is learning of new skills, research, discussion but that is "play" as I would do it anyway. This leaves time for marketing, sales conversations, downtime.) It is not about the hours at all and it's not overwhelming like you are describing. In the qualification phase I discover whether a project is biting off more than I can chew.

                          What I make this way is far more than what I would if I billed hourly.

                          If execution/fulfillment is going to take 300 hours over 2 months, I am going to bill a lot more than $10K...but if the problem is not big enough to justify that investment, then the opportunity dies. Simple. You ARE talking about a project that would take up all of my time for two months, and my time & revenue targets are much more than $5K a month. So I cannot exclusively go to work for that one client at that price.

                          I don't think about things the way you do...racing against an estimate...meat on the bone...you are talking to a classically-trained operations management guy who knows all about numbers, job costing six ways from Sunday and developing KPIs. I have helped developed performance indicators for an entire city. I could take one more year of accounting courses and be hireable for positions to get me the experience to get designated as a CPA.

                          I maxxed out my production hours over the past couple years. It wasn't fun. It was awful. And I didn't make much of a profit. Wall to wall clients is terrible. I work with 1-4 clients a month now because that enables me to apply my energies specifically to solve their problems and not get split up to the point where I can't really help anyone.

                          Your approach is totally valid. If I billed that way, however, I would never get past $1000 or so for a copywriting project because they take me 10 hours or less to complete. That's not where the VALUE I bring comes from. The value comes from my expertise and the size of the problem I am solving, not the hours I put in.

                          One factor that is illuminated is it looks like you are doing a lot more "grinding" to make a dollar than I am. That's the choice of solution, market and commodity vs one-of-a-kind. Your advantage is it's a whole lot easier to add on one more unit of production and duplicate effort than for me. I can't duplicate me. And that's a major reason why looking at business and pricing this way is important.

                          When you say there's a price difference in whether your employee or you does the project, why is that the case? I really want you to think about this. To the customer, it doesn't matter at all WHO does the work. As long as the problem is solved and it gets done, they're happy. Why should they get a discount because a worker does it instead of you?
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                          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                            Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

                            Keep doing what you're doing; it works for you.

                            We already discussed this, and as I said in the original post before we ever talked about it, I am not addressing commodity products or services here. However, I do think talking about this is valuable as contrasting approaches.

                            In my original post, I was very clear that you only take on projects you can complete in a short time. Since there is so much filtering that has to be done, that leaves maybe 5 or 6 days for fulfillment. Most of the projects I do require an hour of work a day. That's it. It is not about the hours at all and it's not overwhelming like you are describing. In the qualification phase I discover whether a project is biting off more than I can chew.

                            What I make this way is far more than what I would if I billed hourly.

                            If execution/fulfillment is going to take 300 hours over 2 months, I am going to bill a lot more than $10K...but if the problem is not big enough to justify that investment, then the opportunity dies. Simple. You ARE talking about a project that would take up all of my time for two months, and my time & revenue targets are much more than $5K a month. So I cannot exclusively go to work for that one client at that price.

                            I don't think about things the way you do...racing against an estimate...meat on the bone...you are talking to a classically-trained operations management guy who knows all about numbers, job costing six ways from Sunday and developing KPIs. I have helped developed performance indicators for an entire city. I could take one more year of accounting courses and be hireable for positions to get me the experience to get designated as a CPA.

                            I maxxed out my production hours over the past couple years. It wasn't fun. It was awful. And I didn't make much of a profit. Wall to wall clients is terrible. I work with 1-4 clients a month now because that enables me to apply my energies specifically to solve their problems and not get split up to the point where I can't really help anyone.

                            Your approach is totally valid. If I billed that way, however, I would never get past $1000 or so for a copywriting project because they take me 10 hours or less to complete. That's not where the VALUE I bring comes from. The value comes from my expertise and the size of the problem I am solving, not the hours I put in.

                            When you say there's a price difference in whether your employee or you does the project, why is that the case? I really want you to think about this. To the customer, it doesn't matter at all WHO does the work. As long as the problem is solved and it gets done, they're happy. Why should they get a discount because a worker does it instead of you?
                            Ok so the part that I was missing is the time you are involved with a project; an hour a day well that makes sense. So yes what I do, vs what you do there is a definite time difference.

                            I think a point I have not tried to make in determining my companies value, is well how I have made that determination. ha ha It is kind of what market will bear, and part breaking down the time required to fulfill whatever it is I am doing, and then value placed on the pain of the customer, and how I can reduce cost and or bring new clients etc.

                            Because I have many aspects of what I do that tie to web design I had a hard time setting pricing. What you charge a offline client to bring people in the door is less than say lead generation. but the overall perception is that a site is a site. So I find myself in wanting to define a pricing structure and stick to it. but the $ that I at times leave on the table is without question there. My overall specific target is brick and mortar. I tend to stay away from Lead gen for a few reasons. #1 is doesn't fit in my pricing model ( I list my pricing transparently here is what I offer here is how much it is ) #2 without building a complex system to develop this it can be hard to track a lead IE as per your example with having a discussion with a client as to how many clients you provided )

                            So why my company and me has a different value. Part of it as mentioned was poor business development. To start 6 years ago in a new market to me ( moved here ) I marketed more me than my company name. I spoke in terms of "I can do that" or "I will get that done today" vs saying "We can do that" and "We can get that done today"
                            The later being a STRONG suggestion to anyone starting out. People are more inclined to hire a team of experts, than a lone wolf!

                            So as time went and I grew to we, people were still asking for me, and it still to this day happens so I have in essence taken advantage of this, and charge for it. I AM A COMMODITY! kind a like a daily positive affirmation... "I have Value"

                            So regardless of which side the contrast you belong. The best that can be brought out is to understand what you are worth. You can have a set value as I do, or you can make the determination based on the clients pain, and what YOUR value would be to help in curing that clients pain!
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                            • Profile picture of the author Howard88
                              Great post, my man. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm already seeing how this can help in my business. This can work even outside of the consulting arena, because if you are selling services that you know can work for your client, then you are already, in essence, a consultant.
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                              • Profile picture of the author evawater
                                This your 4000th post is actually worth it. You explained Pricing into detail. Waiting for your book to be published. You got one customer already. Thank you Jason
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by kirbymarketingconcierge View Post

                  from Jason (OP)

                  FIVE

                  “If they say it, it's true. If you say it, you have to defend it.”
                  ~Jason Kanigan


                  Jason,

                  do you find yourself having to "pull" these #'s out of a prospect?

                  seems like it can be a test of patience and a rush just get to the sale/close,

                  without them verbalizing the figures.

                  and then you end up "defending" and going back to that discussion about what sales increase they could get!???
                  I hope this adds something, because I have some experience with this also.

                  I find that most business owners don't have figures, beyond their gross sales. I'm talking about small businesses, when I'm talking to the owner.

                  But if they don't know their Total Customer Value, average number of sales per new customer, average amount of sale, average profit per client.....they are easy to figure out. And you just write down the figures they say. You let them do the math.

                  It sound drawn out, but it's maybe 5 minutes total to get what you want. Maybe less.

                  And if they give you a guess, I always lower it. And then later, I again verify that these are solid figures, and remind them that I lowered their figures to be "sure".

                  It's important to ask for these numbers before they have a real idea of why you are asking. If you ask at the end, they will skew the figures to get the result they want.You want these figures to be "unfiltered".

                  This Thread is incredibly helpful.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    I hope this adds something, because I have some experience with this also.

                    I find that most business owners don't have figures, beyond their gross sales. 'm talking about small businesses, when I'm talking to the owner.

                    But if they don't know their Total Customer Value, average number of sales per new customer, average amount of sale, average profit per client.....they are easy to figure out. And you just write down the figures they say. You let them do the math.

                    It sound drawn out, but it's maybe 5 minutes total to get what you want. Maybe less.

                    And if they give you a guess, I always lower it. And then later, I again verify that these are solid figures, and remind them that I lowered their figures to be "sure".

                    It's important to ask for these numbers before they have a real idea of why you are asking. If you ask at the end, they will skew the figures to get the result they want.You want these figures to be "unfiltered".

                    This Thread is incredibly helpful.
                    This is exactly the process I use. Sooner or later, the lowered number is going to be too low to warrant our expert involvement. But until we reach that point, there is a price that makes Claude or I happy to do the work. My woodworking shop client and I could not agree on a "number of new customers" closed by my new funnel figure. So we settled on ONE. One $40K client. That justified my mid-four-figure fee, which I am completely happy with, and I left with my check.

                    Everything Claude said in his post is spot-on. This is why I do the Monetizing up front: I want unfiltered numbers.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      I had a client with really low numbers (the ones they gave me). If I remember correctly, he told me that he would make...for sure...one new sale every month, from my program. His lifetime profit on one new customer was about $1,500. For a second, I thought it was a lost cause. But, what the heck, I'm a salesman. So I sold.

                      I asked "Do you have money in savings or investments?" Of course, he said "Yes".

                      I asked the interest rate, he said (I think) "4%"

                      So I said "Let's do so quick math. My program is $6,000. Do you absolutely know for sure, that you would at least get one new customer a year with this program...not one a month, but one a year?"

                      "Absolutely"

                      "You told me that a new customer is worth $1,500 in real profit. That's 25% of the $6,000 you pay me. A $6,000 investment that pays out at least $1,500 a year. So...it's just like getting a 25% return on your investment..every year. Isn't it?"

                      "Yes, at least"

                      "And wouldn't it make good business sense to take some of that 4% money, and make it give you 25% or more?"

                      To be honest, it took a few minutes after that for him to absorb what was happening, with the math...but he was happy to say "Yes" after that. And of course, he got far better results than one new sale a year.

                      It's just a way to handle it, if the figures they give are a little low, or if you just want the client.

                      Added a tad later; This is one of the few clients that I cold walked. I walked in, asked lots of questions....and sold before I left. With interruptions, I may have been there for two hours. It's a place that sells garden supplies and does landscaping.

                      Bad client choice. Too many services they offer. Too many products. Too hard to nail down figures. Too low a price point. And they are seasonal, which threw me a little. (In fact, that's the main reason I went with one sale a year. I needed to take out the Seasonal objection)
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  • Profile picture of the author DaniMc
    This is it, Jason!

    It can take people a few years to figure these things out if they are really trying. Most people just get discouraged and give up. You just gave them the key.

    People simply must understand that if they offer value, they can charge almost any amount they want.

    There truly is a customer for almost any price. - This is true for cars, homes, airplanes, marketing, and almost anything else.

    My only caveat is that people must offer real value. Once you have a specific "thing" that you know you can do well - the sky's the limit is how much can be charged for that thing. It only comes down to execution.

    There are companies out there charging $50,000 for a logo. There are people on fiverr who will create them for $5. Who do you think sleeps on a nicer mattress at night?
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    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
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