Anyone Programming as a Freelancer?

11 years ago

Do not work as a freelancer, instead work with your programming knowledge into IM.

If you want to make some money every now and then just go to elance and/or odesk and try to win over some jobs. Don't get me wrong here, freelance is great, but competition for online freelancing is huge and due to the high diversity on communities doing it, the range of price/quality is huge as well and until you build your own image, its not so simple to get good recurring clients, it took me a month to build up my profile/portfolio at elance and get recurring clients until I realized that I was mainly developing tools that I could have done and monetize myself.

If you want to make monthly incoming out of programming either JV with someone in need of a programmer or start developing bots and related stuff that may be useful to IM and that you can either sell for a fixed prixed or monthly fee.

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Dong Lee

11 years ago

Originally Posted by cgimaster

Do not work as a freelancer, if you want to make a living out of it.

If you want to make some money every now and then just go to elance and/or odesk and try to win over some jobs. Don't get me wrong here, freelance is great, but competition for online freelancing is huge and due to the high diversity on communities doing it, the range of price/quality is huge as well and until you build your own image, its not so simple to get good recurring clients, it took me a month to build up my profile/portfolio at elance and get recurring clients until I realized that I was mainly developing tools that I could have done and monetize myself.

If you want to make monthly incoming out of programming either JV with someone in need of a programmer or start developing bots and related stuff that may be useful to IM and that you can either sell for a fixed prixed or monthly fee.

I agree with you. The situation in freelance market is very challenging. You cant just go and get money. It take months and you wont get good price

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zannix 11 years ago

It's that bad, huh?
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- Mrmoon75 11 years ago
  
  I've been programming as a Freelancer for over a decade now. On average I make about 2k a month. Over the years I've been able to built a steady costumerbase which provides me with quite a steady flow of work each year.
  
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FirstSocialApps

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dong Lee

I agree with you. The situation in freelance market is very challenging. You cant just go and get money. It take months and you wont get good price

I disagree with this. Up until about a year ago I was a full time freelance worker. I specialized in Facebook development. Most of the work I did came from Elance and VWorker.

When freelancing I could have made $1k per month without even trying. Heck $1k per week was reasonable and I often made more than that. And yes I was competing with over seas workers that were able to underbid me. Yet I still beat them out many times even though my bid was much higher.

How? Simple, you need to understand that when freelancing your not just selling code, your selling yourself. When placing a bid, make sure it is clear, to the point, and relevant to the project. Answer all questions right away, asap. Give excellent service and never ever say you will do something your not 110% sure you can do correct and on time. It also helps to do a few jobs cheap just to build up a reputation.

I can say for sure that you can make a full time living as a freelance worker if you do it right.

Oh one last thought .. dont bid on the mid to large jobs. 5 $200 jobs is much much better than 1 $1000 job.

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zannix

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

I disagree with this. Up until about a year ago I was a full time freelance worker. I specialized in Facebook development. Most of the work I did came from Elance and VWorker.

When freelancing I could have made $1k per month without even trying. Heck $1k per week was reasonable and I often made more than that. And yes I was competing with over seas workers that were able to underbid me. Yet I still beat them out many times even though my bid was much higher.

How? Simple, you need to understand that when freelancing your not just selling code, your selling yourself. When placing a bid, make sure it is clear, to the point, and relevant to the project. Answer all questions right away, asap. Give excellent service and never ever say you will do something your not 110% sure you can do correct and on time. It also helps to do a few jobs cheap just to build up a reputation.

I can say for sure that you can make a full time living as a freelance worker if you do it right.

Oh one last thought .. dont bid on the mid to large jobs. 5 $200 jobs is much much better than 1 $1000 job.

It's nice to hear some encouraging words for a change, thank you.

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wayfarer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by cgimaster

Do not work as a freelancer, if you want to make a living out of it.

If you want to make some money every now and then just go to elance and/or odesk and try to win over some jobs. Don't get me wrong here, freelance is great, but competition for online freelancing is huge and due to the high diversity on communities doing it, the range of price/quality is huge as well and until you build your own image, its not so simple to get good recurring clients, it took me a month to build up my profile/portfolio at elance and get recurring clients until I realized that I was mainly developing tools that I could have done and monetize myself.

If you want to make monthly incoming out of programming either JV with someone in need of a programmer or start developing bots and related stuff that may be useful to IM and that you can either sell for a fixed prixed or monthly fee.

This advice isn't completely wrong, but the premise that you can't make a living online as a freelancer is incorrect, especially if your goal is only to make $1K a month at first. I wouldn't say this if it wasn't for my personal experience earning a living as a freelancer, completely remotely from home. Although I work for a company now (also remotely), I pretty much started my career on the online marketplace Odesk. After 4 years I was able to pull in a little more than $80K per year based on what my weekly earnings were. It is worth noting, I live in the United States, which means that the difficulty of competing against contractors from around the world, while it does exist, is definitely not impossible to overcome.

If you're interested in seeing my history on Odesk, you can see my profile here: https://www.odesk.com/o/profiles/use...2a6004c56bab1/ ... My assignment and pay history might give you a good idea of how things can progress if you work hard at it. You have to bid low at first to get assignments, but if you are rated well you can soon raise your rates. You also need to be a master at writing cover letters if your bids are going to stand out from the crowd, and fill your profile with as much useful information as possible. I've been told that my profile is a good example of how to succeed on Odesk, and my results definitely support this!

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cgimaster

11 years ago

Originally Posted by wayfarer

This advice isn't completely wrong, but the premise that you can't make a living online as a freelancer is incorrect, especially if your goal is only to make $1K a month at first.

There is no premise saying you can't live out of it, the only metion I am doing is that you can make more money by programming to IM instead of freelancing and on top of that you will have less work as well.

I was making an average of 2~3k monthly, I work as a network eng on rl, so I don't oversell my services. Was doing an average of 1 to 3 daily/weekly jobs depending on the size/work load, still have most of the clients on skype and they frequently send me jobs however like I mentioned I have stopped doing work on those sites to try my own journey on IM which I believe to be more profitable.

Originally Posted by wayfarer

You have to bid low at first to get assignments, but if you are rated well you can soon raise your rates.

I also think this is wrong to point out, I've always bid the price I think that was fair for my service and never had issues getting jobs the KEY is to have a well written proposal, means to contact and reply to your client asap, etc.

Also there is plenty of things you can specialize yourself on elance and odesk where people will have a hard time to beat your prices.

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FirstSocialApps

11 years ago

Originally Posted by wayfarer

f you're interested in seeing my history on Odesk, you can see my profile here: https://www.odesk.com/o/profiles/use...2a6004c56bab1/ ... My assignment and pay history might give you a good idea of how things can progress if you work hard at it.

One other suggestion that this profile made me think of is this:

Notice how he has his minimum hourly rate set to $75. Dont do this. Set a low minimum hourly rate of say $15 per hour (thats what I used) .. but the trick is dont bid on hourly jobs bid on flat rate jobs. Most people have no idea how long something will take, so when they see you bid $200 on a job that will take you 2.5 hours they think there getting a good deal since it says your minimum hourly rate is $15. If you set a high min hourly rate you might scare lots of people off.

--As a side note to wayfarer nice profile, but 58th percentile for PHP5? 66th for JavaScript? Im guessing you were not doing web development.

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cgimaster

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

Notice how he has his minimum hourly rate set to $75. Dont do this. Set a low minimum hourly rate of say $15 per hour (thats what I used) ..

Don't think that is a worth doing strategy for instance lets say you won a 200USD fixed price job and your hourly rate is 15USD and the client checks your profile and then asks your how long can you complete it and you tell him 4 hours which makes it 4x15=60USD then he goes ahead and say oh so if you hourly rate is 15 then we can go with that.

And you will have to explain to him why and it will make in at least my opnion a bad image of yourself to him as youre not a transparent person.

So that is like a double sided sword to use it will cut you too.

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FirstSocialApps

11 years ago

Originally Posted by cgimaster

And you will have to explain to him why and it will make in at least my opnion a bad image of yourself to him as youre not a transparent person.

You can get stuck like that you are saying. However I did this on Elance. On Elance it doesnt ask for hourly rate it asks for 'minimum hourly rate' .. if a client did just what you said, I would kindly tell them that $15 per hour is my minimum rate and the minimum rate is not for the kind of work they are requesting (then I would direct them to my excellent work history and reviews to show them Im worth the higher charge that there project demands)

Out of 140 completed jobs I have had to explain myself perhaps 6 or 8 times. 99% of the time the customer just accepts (at least in my experience)

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cgimaster

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

You can get stuck like that you are saying. However I did this on Elance. On Elance it doesnt ask for hourly rate it asks for 'minimum hourly rate' .. if a client did just what you said, I would kindly tell them that $15 per hour is my minimum rate and the minimum rate is not for the kind of work they are requesting (then I would direct them to my excellent work history and reviews to show them Im worth the higher charge that there project demands)

Out of 140 completed jobs I have had to explain myself perhaps 6 or 8 times. 99% of the time the customer just accepts (at least in my experience)

Yes I think on oDesk you cant leave it emtpy or so and at elance I think you can leave that empty on your profile so that wouldnt be a problem.

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wayfarer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

One other suggestion that this profile made me think of is this:

Notice how he has his minimum hourly rate set to $75. Dont do this. Set a low minimum hourly rate of say $15 per hour (thats what I used) .. but the trick is dont bid on hourly jobs bid on flat rate jobs. Most people have no idea how long something will take, so when they see you bid $200 on a job that will take you 2.5 hours they think there getting a good deal since it says your minimum hourly rate is $15. If you set a high min hourly rate you might scare lots of people off. But at first, you're right, a lower rate should be set, or you'll scare people off.

--As a side note to wayfarer nice profile, but 58th percentile for PHP5? 66th for JavaScript? Im guessing you were not doing web development.

Well, for me, $75 is a defensive price (I'm trying not to get more clients). I'm also trying to ward off anyone who is not serious. I had great success at a $70 per hour minimum rate for a while, if you will look at my history.

As to the low percentile scores, those are very old test scores, for tests that are mostly irrelevant. If you ever saw the tests you'd see what I mean. Maybe they've improved by now, who knows. It was never an obstacle to advancement for whatever reason. And yes, I was mostly doing web development.

Anyway, the point is, it's possible to earn a real living online, if you know how to build a customer base, and meet real needs by educating your clients as to what will work and what will not work in the real world.

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cgimaster 11 years ago

Originally Posted by wayfarer

Well, for me, $75 is a defensive price ... I'm also trying to ward off anyone who is not serious.

I also do the same to ward off spammers and not serious people and think its a fair practice, it is also benefical as I've got some invites because of it as well. Some clients might think alike, like people broadcasting high prices are either doing good quality work or looking for serious job and when they check the profiles they can actually see thru it from history etc.
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FirstSocialApps

11 years ago

Originally Posted by wayfarer

Well, for me, $75 is a defensive price (I'm trying not to get more clients). I'm also trying to ward off anyone who is not serious. I had great success at a $70 per hour minimum rate for a while, if you will look at my history.

As to the low percentile scores, those are very old test scores, for tests that are mostly irrelevant. If you ever saw the tests you'd see what I mean.

Yea I can see the benefit to your strategy. I do see just over 5k hours billed. I was just sharing what worked for me. But then again we wernt even bidding on the same types of jobs. I did almost all flat rate jobs I tried to avoid hourly. In fact I think in my entire freelance experience I might have billed for around 90 hours or so. But I did many more flat rate jobs than that.

I wasnt trying to imply anything about your ability based on the test rankings, and Im sorry if it came across like I was. I know about those crappy tests. For 6 months I couldnt pass the Elance Facebook test because I did not know the answers to depreciated FBML questions. It was nuts. I didnt know the 'old no longer relevant stuff ' so I couldnt pass the test even though I know the Graph API inside and out.

One thing that the OP should take out of this thread though is that a few of us have shown that you absolutely can make a living as a freelance coder. Also many of the people who replied stating that they did do this give very similar advise.

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wayfarer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

Yea I can see the benefit to your strategy. I do see just over 5k hours billed. I was just sharing what worked for me. But then again we wernt even bidding on the same types of jobs. I did almost all flat rate jobs I tried to avoid hourly. In fact I think in my entire freelance experience I might have billed for around 90 hours or so. But I did many more flat rate jobs than that..

Yep, I can see how a different strategy would work for you, seeing how you're on Elance, and doing mostly fixed price assignments. On Odesk, the fixed price system is purposely handicapped (no escrow), with focus on their primary service, the hourly virtual office. So everything I've done there has been primarily to get good hourly contracts. If I was going the Elance/fixed-price route, I would probably follow your advice, as it sounds reasonable.

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

I wasnt trying to imply anything about your ability based on the test rankings, and Im sorry if it came across like I was. I know about those crappy tests. For 6 months I couldnt pass the Elance Facebook test because I did not know the answers to depreciated FBML questions. It was nuts. I didnt know the 'old no longer relevant stuff ' so I couldnt pass the test even though I know the Graph API inside and out.

No worries, I wasn't offended at all. It shows you actually read my profile instead of just skimming it.

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cgimaster

11 years ago

It really depends on wether you can or cannot build recurring clients really.

If you check out odesk for example they are like the cheap service of freelancer you will find stupid prices for work that 1 person would take a long time to complete.

However most of the people at those websites are either big companies or outsources so they can present a really low pricing even if they also present with a terrible quality and at odesk at least what I have noticed is that people go there to find cheap prices regardless of your quality so I moved on to elance.

elance is great and I feel more confortable work at elance as you can receive from both fixed and hourly rates without hassle like odesk where on fixed rates you have no guarantees of getting paid.

Then again on elance there are people that outsource and lots of companies and even individuals that at first glance you would think they are individuals but they are in fact outsourcing or a company branch in order to allow them to pick more jobs.

So in resume getting a job is not a easy task, you have to build your profile into something presentable (not hard should take a few minutes), then you need to grab some initial work to build your reputation so others will feel more confortable to work and select you and this is what takes a bit of time if you are on a competitive area of work.

Once you get out of the initial part it youre already used to how it works and have some ideas on how to present your proposals and all but still not easy until you build your recurring clients.

Why ? You still have competitors, you will still have to spend time evaluating the job and making a good proposal, some people take a whole month to choose some one for the work, some pick right away. While youre making your proposal and posting the job could have already been awarded to some one else.

As my own experience working on those websites for over 4 months now, I've done a good money but looking back at all the things i've developed, I could have made a lot more money doing those for the IM, and that is what I am aiming right now

SIDE NOTE: If you can build a good list of recurring clients you can get a good monthly amount but I choose to come into the IM as I believe it will be more profitable overtime and less overall work in regards freelancing.

You may be able to get a good monthly incoming as freelancing but keep in mind that the payment will vary from work to work and keeping your average earning will mostly depend on how much you work/acquire clients or get your current ones to send you more work.

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Glen Barnhardt

11 years ago

Zannix,

There is plenty of people that will pay a good programmer for work. I have been working full time from my home for the last 6 years.

I program mainly in PHP, JQuery, HTML, and use MySQL backends.

You can create websites for people who want custom work with data driven backends.

You can learn how to create WordPress Plugins and Themes.

But the most lucrative is to create products that Internet Marketers need. Do Product launches, Build a List and sell to it.

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ashok999333

11 years ago

I am a new freelancer too. Please help us gurus.

One more thing I just developed a auto blogging software for blogger. How can I market it. Can anyone hep me.

Thanks
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Glen Barnhardt

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ashok999333

I am a new freelancer too. Please help us gurus.

One more thing I just developed a auto blogging software for blogger. How can I market it. Can anyone hep me.

Once you have a software product to sell there are quite a few avenues. You could sell it as a WSO on the warrior forum.

You could find a partner that has great affiliate connections and do a product launch with them.

Or you can go it alone and try to find affiliates to promote your product.

As a new marketer I suggest you find a partner and work close with them to see how it's done.

The flow is basically build a good site with all the benefits.. A case study is even better. Set a launch date, find affiliates to promote.

Pretty simple on the outside but it takes hard work to do it right.

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Bryan Zazz

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ashok999333

I am a new freelancer too. Please help us gurus.

One more thing I just developed a auto blogging software for blogger. How can I market it. Can anyone hep me.

Since you're on WF, I'd go for a WSO. But I'd get and study a few WSO products on "how to do WSOs" first, as these are basically very helpful and each taught me new things I never would have considered otherwise.
good luck!!

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Damien Roche

11 years ago

I've been freelancing for 4 or 5 years now, and though it was difficult in the beginning, it has become easier as my reputation has grown.

I've used Elance for most of my work as the clients there appear more professional than other sites (like freelancer.com).

Hitting $1k month will be a stroll for somebody who is committed to the work. I've made some excellent money freelancing and I haven't even been smart about marketing my services.

- don't have a portfolio site (except elance profile)
- paid $200 in advertising in 4 years
- don't have a blog
- don't network on twitter/facebook
- haven't built a network of clients
- haven't tried to leverage existing clients
- outsourced some work unnecessarily
- undercharged too many times

My approach towards the marketing and business side of things has been amateurish. Yet I've produced excellent work and I've developed year on year, and my reputation is a result of that.

What I will say is don't focus on WFH section too much; I've commonly found minor tweak jobs. Get registered on Elance instead and start working on how to effectively submit proposals. You could even stay clear of the freelance sites altogether and focus on other forms of sourcing work through your blog, or social networks.

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WebThinker

11 years ago

Zannix,

don't let yourself down... Many people are saying that you are going to fail. Many says this because they are not able to do something (they failed to do something, it doesn't mean that you will too), or just because they think it is hard.

Being a freelancer is not easy. After ten years of building sites in partnership with somebody, I have decided to go on my own way. Believe it or not, but since May this year I have LOTS of new clients from all over the world, and I am making so much more than the $1K which is your target.

In order to succeed you need to be: professional, keep the agreed deadlines, make your clients happy... they will come back again and again.

Success!

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Jesse L

11 years ago

You can make money freelancing if you get out there and work at it and at selling yourself. There used to be a day when $75 to $150 per hour was common.... but not so anymore.

I think at first you will have to go in low to build your reputation. After you have done this you can start targeting the larger companies for the larger money.
I believe what you will find hardest about freelancing is trying to decide if your potential client is a high end client or a low end client.

I believe you will find that with smaller clients you may charge $200 for a task. Where with a large company you may have to charge 10 times that or they will just think you are a fly by nighter. YUP! It is easy to underbid and get left out of the running because you appear cheap and look as if you are just trying to underbid everyone else. Keep mid to upper range in your bidding if you want to attract high end customers. If you want k-mart shoppers, then bid low. I have found that the ones on a tight budget are not worth wasting your time on. They will needle you to death.

Good luck!

JL

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shru_developement

11 years ago

Hi All,

I am a freelancer too.
My core skills are,
PHP with MVC and JSON.

Please let me know if I can be helpful to anyone.

Regards
Shru

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rising_sun

Banned 11 years ago

I am freelancer Programmer ,
right now I am with oDESK ,
I love PHP and my job is on PHP programming ,besides it I do HTML,Flash and CSS.

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Stardustpoint 11 years ago

If your good and fast - and have quality code - and deliver on time......your freelancing jobs will be many.

Trust me on that. Honestly, build app games for iphone....you'll might get rich.
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brettb

11 years ago

Nice thread - some good info here. I've done freelance jobs in the past, mainly through word of mouth.

The best thing is to go deep niche, and find a specialist area not many people know. I used to do FileMaker > MySQL/PHP conversion stuff.

You can make $$$$ on oDesk - I hired some translators and they made a very decent hourly wage out of it. I hired them because they looked the best and they'd obviously worked hard to build their reputation.

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WebThinker

11 years ago

Yes, reputation on oDesk is very important. However, one can not base the judgement solely on it.
In my case for example, I have 20 jobs in the last 6 months, all of them accomplished in a very very professional manner. For all of them I have received glowing references, and of course 5 star rating. Excepting one, where I have 3.5 rating, which brings down my overall rating to 4.69.
What is annoying in odesk is that if something unfair happens, then you can't really do much. This 3.5 rating I have received as a revenge from the client's manager, because for two months he was keep promising me that he'll pay me tomorrow (once the job was done)... until the point I have searched the internet for his name, and found warning that his guy has already made this trick with others too. I have sent that link to his boss, and expressed my disappointment. The boss sent the money right away, and his manager closed the project right away... with 3.5.

So that is my experience with oDesk. Overall, I think that it is a very good system and it worth to work via oDesk. You have instant access to lots of employers and/or employees, depending what you are searching for

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sandipandatta

11 years ago

Buddy you should never be disappointed.. believe in yourself and always try to maintain two things:
1. Quality
2. Timely delivery

You are going to rock....
All the best

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zannix

11 years ago

Wow thanks guys, I had no idea this thread would get so much response, I guess a lot of people can pick up some solid advice here...

I sure did. Unless you guys are all computer geniuses who never get out of the house and hack pentagon in your spare time, I think I have a fair chance to succeed as well.

Thank you guys,
Zannix

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