Why Organic SEO Beats PPC!

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  • SEO
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Here's why organic "for me" SEO is better than PPC:


1. The leads generated by SEO are better and hotter.

A lot of people know that PPC is paid advertising

Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated"

So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.


2. SEO has extremely low costs.

You might want to outsource some stuff or hire an SEO service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free. It would be time consuming but worth it.

Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to even $50 per click, that's insane.


3. Authority Value.

A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.


Conclusion

The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours .

However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

What would someone believe when they see your site there?

"Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".

The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $10k.

Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

What you think?
#beats #organic #ppc #seo
  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    I think you're missing the big picture.
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  • Profile picture of the author Magaver90
    I love the part where you say "SEO has extremely low costs." I am getting tired of people saying this because its not true at all - SEO can be very expensive if you are going after competitive keywords/phrases.

    Sure, if you are trying to rank number 1 on Google for useless keywords which get barely any traffic then a few blogposts & comments will work. Otherwise, it usually takes months and several thousands of dollars to get top rank and of course with all the Google updates, there is no guarantee.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by stv105 View Post

      I love the part where you say "SEO has extremely low costs." I am getting tired of people saying this because its not true at all - SEO can be very expensive if you are going after competitive keywords/phrases.
      In most cases if you are going after "competitive keywords/phrases" you will pay through your teeth forever so its still relatively lower cost

      Originally Posted by ronrule View Post

      I think you're missing the big picture.
      Oh the irony of it. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
    Originally Posted by Manuel Aguirre View Post

    2. SEO has extremely low costs.
    Originally Posted by Manuel Aguirre View Post

    he paid me $10k.
    This post is too contradictory for me. I'm out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

      This post is too contradictory for me. I'm out.
      How in the world can you tel that without more detail?

      t's apples and oranges. SEO isn't better then PPC and PPC isn't better then SEO. You could use both of these traffic sources and benefit from both sides of the spectrum.
      most intelligent post of the thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        How in the world can you tel that without more detail
        Please, the whole post is ridiculous. The OP is spitting rubbish that has no real meaning in the real world.

        There's a reason Amazon spend $50,000+ per day on PPC with Google alone. No matter what your SEO budget, PPC is still a profitable avenue.

        What everybody here seems to be forgetting, is as an enterprise, or large company, SEO is out of the window. You don't pay anybody to do "SEO". You don't buy links, you don't pay for directories, and you certainly don't hire "experts" on the Warrior Forum.

        PPC is all about spend vs ROI. There's a reason Insurers pay $40/click for PPC. They might spend $400 to acquire 1 customer and make $200 profit in the process. If you look at the fact that that customer can recommend friends, socially share content, and become a life-long customer, the ROI soon adds up.

        I invest in "SEO" on my affiliate sites because it's a short-term venture. I don't have the effort to digitally market my sites when I'm going up against people with PBN's.

        On the other hand, the company I work for, I don't spend a penny on "SEO". We invest thousands / month in PPC, and pay thousands for editorials in global niche-specific magazines. These magazines give us exposure to Directors and Senior Engineers, who are the decision makers in buying specific goods.

        Amazon invest in SEO - not in the sense that their teams go out and build links. But in the sense that they are constantly analyzing and changing their on-site platform. This is a necessity with a retailer the size of Amazon. So many 404's and broken links.

        "SEO" is always a short-term strategy, in the sense of "building links" as the OP is referring to, whether you're a real business or an affiliate site. We all know this. So the fact that "SEO" beats "PPC" is ridiculous.

        If I was starting an online venture, I'd prefer to invest my marketing budget in PPC and forget about paying "experts" to build links and destroy my business. I'd hire "SEO's" to digitally market my business, raise brand awareness, socially market my business, improve on-site content, loading times, conversion points etcetc.

        This is a debate that could go on forever, and as was mentioned, it's Oranges vs Bananas.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
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          Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

          If I was starting an online venture, I'd prefer to invest my marketing budget in PPC and forget about paying "experts" to build links and destroy my business. I'd hire "SEO's" to digitally market my business, raise brand awareness, socially market my business, improve on-site content, loading times, conversion points etcetc.
          How can they destroy your business if you never rank in the first place? You ain't gonna rank solely based on site loading speed and social engagement.

          Or what about a second site, one where you don't do active SEO and one where you do. You would be missing out on a lot of money if you wouldn't actively build links.
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          • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

            How can they destroy your business if you never rank in the first place? You ain't gonna rank solely based on site loading speed and social engagement.

            Or what about a second site, one where you don't do active SEO and one where you do. You would be missing out on a lot of money if you wouldn't actively build links.
            Yes, but that's the point. If we're talking about a REAL business that cannot take risks, "SEO" as we know it is out of the question.

            SEO then transitions into acquiring links through self-promotion, innovation and outreach. I recently published a press release about the MEHN region (Saudi Arabia etc) on Oil/Gas growth, and what the projected growth rate is. I got quotes from our Managing Director and put him as the expert portraying the information.

            The Media love to cover stories where an authorative person is talking. The Media picked it up, and so did a few global Oil/Gas Magazines. We got a few links - some pretty cool too, like Sky News and The Guardian. Most media outlets will always drop a link to the source's website as a courtesy.

            Our site ranks #1 for all major Oil/Gas keywords that our product fulfills, and we haven't bought a single link except for press releases. But even then, our press release aren't optimized to acquire links - we don't stuff in anchors.

            SEO is great if it's for a property that isn't valuable to you - and I think we can both agree on that. If you're able to make a second property as a blog or something, and use it as lead generation, then SEO is a perfect fit.

            But for your main brand, the business YOU'RE building long-term and hoping to see sustained growth, buying links from PBN's and building web 2.0's isn't the way to go.

            A great example here is any "SEO" provider online, whether that be keyword tracking, article spinning or whatever. They don't build and blast links at their sites - because they know it's a short-term futile game. They rely on the innovation of their product to acquire links and referrals.

            I just found a new rank tracking software, Accuranker. It amazed me how much better it is than SERPFOX, and for the same price. The owner of this software has won a customer (me) for a very long time, as long as nothing else beats it in the future. Think how many people I'll refer, and how much I'll talk about it like I am now?

            Innovation always beats SEO for real businesses.
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            • Profile picture of the author nik0
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              Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

              Yes, but that's the point. If we're talking about a REAL business that cannot take risks, "SEO" as we know it is out of the question.

              SEO is great if it's for a property that isn't valuable to you - and I think we can both agree on that. If you're able to make a second property as a blog or something, and use it as lead generation, then SEO is a perfect fit.

              But for your main brand, the business YOU'RE building long-term and hoping to see sustained growth, buying links from PBN's and building web 2.0's isn't the way to go.

              A great example here is any "SEO" provider online, whether that be keyword tracking, article spinning or whatever. They don't build and blast links at their sites - because they know it's a short-term futile game. They rely on the innovation of their product to acquire links and referrals.
              There's always a risk attached to ranking sites with private blog networks, can't deny that, even the ones that are setup more legit still look fake when you dive a little deeper into it and the backlink profile itself reveals everything straight away.

              Proof of that are two batches of sites that I setup exclusively for 2 customers, based on domains hyper relevant to their niche and hosted on an SEO host that got badly affected by the latest attack from Google. None of the domains from these batches got deindexed despite a manual review while another batch on irrelevant domains got hit pretty hard, same host.

              As for SEO's not building network links to their sites, not so much cause they are afraid it won't work or last, much more cause competitors in the SEO niche love to report each other so having a network out in the open for everyone to see is a bad idea.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

          Please, the whole post is ridiculous. The OP is spitting rubbish that has no real meaning in the real world.
          Oh the irony (looks like I will be able to copy and paste that several times in this thread)

          There's a reason Amazon spend $50,000+ per day on PPC with Google alone. No matter what your SEO budget, PPC is still a profitable avenue.
          and um who said it wasn't? Meanwhile you talked about spitting rubbish in the real world and here you are on WF talking about Amazon. In this real world you are talking about do many people here have the advertising budget of Amazon? So whose spitting rubbish in this fake world of yours where you can compare the sources and outreach capabilities of Amazon to the average Imer? Or did you forget you were on WF and not positing an internal memo to the board of amazon?

          What everybody here seems to be forgetting, is as an enterprise, or large company, SEO is out of the window. You don't pay anybody to do "SEO". You don't buy links, you don't pay for directories, and you certainly don't hire "experts" on the Warrior Forum.
          With big companies for links you just run advertising and public relations department and you get links and rank. They call that SEO too Ice and ahem big companies don't do SEO? do tell or to you is on page SEo not SEO?. seems like you are the forgetful one or just don't know what SEO is because its a pure fact that big companies do SEO.

          Yeah meanwhile Amazon just hates its organic traffic and does nothing to foster SEO. Shucks its not like organic listing make them any money.

          Meanwhile someone should tell the guys down in human resources that "SEO is out the window" for big companies

          http://www.amazon.com/gp/jobs/199895...ation=*&page=1

          Apparently they didn't get your memo. lol
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          • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            With big companies for links you just run advertising and public relations department and you get links and rank. They call that SEO too Ice and ahem big companies don't do SEO? do tell or to you is on page SEo not SEO?. seems like you are the forgetful one or just don't know what SEO is because its a pure fact that big companies do SEO.
            Oh Mike.

            You're still the blind American I remember.

            Amazon invest in SEO - not in the sense that their teams go out and build links. But in the sense that they are constantly analyzing and changing their on-site platform. This is a necessity with a retailer the size of Amazon. So many 404's and broken links.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

              Oh Mike.

              You're still the blind American I remember.
              We weren't blind enough to take an entire continent from you were we? Who didn't see that coming? LOL

              Amazon invest in SEO - not in the sense that their teams go out and build links. But in the sense that they are constantly analyzing and changing their on-site platform.
              Here let me give you some glasses. from the job description provided at the link I gave

              This position requires a deep understanding of analytics and identifying relevant insights, a strong ability to audit technical website issues, as well as hands on experience in on-page optimization, social media strategy AND LINK DEVELOPMENT

              Success metrics will be based on growth in overall qualified organic traffic for our website and associated revenue.
              bit more than changing their onsite platform oh uninformed Brit.

              I am not responsible for your garbage definition of what you think SEO is and is not. Sorry.
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              • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                I am not responsible for your garbage definition of what you think SEO is and is not. Sorry.
                They aren't going out and paying Mike Anthony to build a PBN though, are they?

                They are identifying opportunities to acquire links through organic creative marketing - whether that's starting a Twitter trend, running a sale, promotion, social media campaign - whatever.

                My point is that REAL businesses don't buy links. End of?
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

                  They aren't going out and paying Mike Anthony to build a PBN though, are they?
                  LOL....I could hardly divulge if they did now could I?...I will take note that you think so highly of me that any time you say SEO is out the window you mean SEO by Mike Anthony?

                  Brits and their off beat comedy

                  They are identifying opportunities to acquire links through organic creative marketing - whether that's starting a Twitter trend, running a sale, promotion, social media campaign - whatever.

                  My point is that REAL businesses don't buy links. End of?
                  You are floundering as usual and have no point. Big companies just buy them differently. They do ad campaigns that cost money and bring in links They utilize partnerships (based on economics) with other companies that link back to them. They utilize sister and affiliated sites ( kind a like PBNs ) and they use their market position bought by money and advertising to leverage links.

                  You fail again.

                  Meanwhile you've yet to address how what big companies do and don't do has any bearing whatsoever on people here at WF. talking about what Microsoft, amazon or Ebay does because of their size and media outreach as some instruction to what a small business should do without those things is just vast silliness.
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                • Profile picture of the author jinx1221
                  Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

                  They aren't going out and paying Mike Anthony to build a PBN though, are they?
                  The point of Big Business (Amazon eg.) building Seo themselves is moot. You get big enough and you don't NEED to do Seo yourself.. others will do it for you naturally. You start out new, you DO need to do Seo until you get big yourself. And Amazon as Mike said do Seo differently. You get big, you grow big.. you have the revenue to go big.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
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          Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

          What everybody here seems to be forgetting, is as an enterprise, or large company, SEO is out of the window. You don't pay anybody to do "SEO". You don't buy links, you don't pay for directories, and you certainly don't hire "experts" on the Warrior Forum.
          JCPenney might disagree.

          BTW, I personally know of at least 2 multi-million dollar online stores that have sourced SEO to Warrior Forum members. Neither have anything to do with IM or affiliates.

          The majority of WF members have very small SEO budgets but there's still a few that have big venture capital money backing them up.
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          • Profile picture of the author Icematikx
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            JCPenney might disagree.

            BTW, I personally know of at least 2 multi-million dollar online stores that have sourced SEO to Warrior Forum members. Neither have anything to do with IM or affiliates.

            The majority of WF members have very small SEO budgets but there's still a few that have big venture capital money backing them up.
            And that's exactly what I'm getting at Yukon. JCPenney took the hit years back, and it will happen to every business at some point - whether that's in 2-weeks or in 3-years.

            The original post was, "SEO Beats PPC", and I concur on some levels. SEO beats PPC if you're an affiliate marketer, or somebody who doesn't care about their business (like myself with my Amazon sites).

            I'm talking about SEO here as in link building, not optimizing on-site content because let's face it, links make the world go round.

            If you're a real business, be it a SME, local plumber or enterprise, buying links in form of a PBN, blog commenting, whatever, is only going to spell trouble long-term and there's nobody here who can deny that.
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            • Profile picture of the author jinx1221
              Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

              If you're a real business, be it a SME, local plumber or enterprise, buying links in form of a PBN, blog commenting, whatever, is only going to spell trouble long-term and there's nobody here who can deny that.
              I deny that
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
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              Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

              And that's exactly what I'm getting at Yukon. JCPenney took the hit years back, and it will happen to every business at some point - whether that's in 2-weeks or in 3-years.

              The original post was, "SEO Beats PPC", and I concur on some levels. SEO beats PPC if you're an affiliate marketer, or somebody who doesn't care about their business (like myself with my Amazon sites).

              I'm talking about SEO here as in link building, not optimizing on-site content because let's face it, links make the world go round.

              If you're a real business, be it a SME, local plumber or enterprise, buying links in form of a PBN, blog commenting, whatever, is only going to spell trouble long-term and there's nobody here who can deny that.
              The difference here is JCPenney & most large corp. are always in the spotlight, so there's always going to be someone nit picking everything they do (competition).

              The odds of a small local business ever getting called out is slim because nobody cares. If you told WSJ that Joe Blows plumbing in small town Iowa was building links, nobody would care.

              BTW, a lot of local small businesses have multiple domains targeting the same/similar keywords. Do a Google search for a few local niches (carpet cleaning, locksmith, roofing, etc...), look at the domains in their link profiles. Those aren't usually organic links.

              Those are still legit businesses with tax ID numbers (TIN, EIN).
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

              I'm talking about SEO here as in link building, not optimizing on-site content because let's face it, links make the world go round.
              Lets face it . You don't have a solitary clue what you are talking about. Every time you make generalized statements about link building you give away you have no clue. You are just trying to redefine SEO to make all your nonsense claims about SEO fly in the face of contrary evidence.

              If you're a real business, be it a SME, local plumber or enterprise, buying links in form of a PBN, blog commenting, whatever, is only going to spell trouble long-term and there's nobody here who can deny that.
              Case in point of ignorance. I don't know a single professional SEO that does not know that out there in the real world links are BOUGHT every day and have been for over a decade. It is IMPOSSIBLE to detect money exchanging hands between two entities and when done right there is NOTHING,NADA, ZIP in the code or on the page that says

              "Hey here I am...this link is bought"

              Its pure ignorance to claim there is. Some even most PBNs have footprints yes but PBNs do not have to have them and they are only ONE KIND of buying links with a host of others available that work today, worked ten years ago and will work as long as links count. So not only can somebody deny it like you claim they can't. Every single professional SEO with an ounce worth of experiences knows the claim is pure nonsense.

              If all that wasn't enough there are links.php/links.html ALL OVER THE INTERNET that never get deleted or deindexed and yes many are paid (not to mention professional directories). So the whole buying links will get your site in trouble and real businesses don't buy links (what in the world is a "partner page" but a link based on a monetary relationships) is just pure garbage.
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            • Originally Posted by Icematikx View Post

              And that's exactly what I'm getting at Yukon. JCPenney took the hit years back, and it will happen to every business at some point - whether that's in 2-weeks or in 3-years.

              The original post was, "SEO Beats PPC", and I concur on some levels. SEO beats PPC if you're an affiliate marketer, or somebody who doesn't care about their business (like myself with my Amazon sites).

              I'm talking about SEO here as in link building, not optimizing on-site content because let's face it, links make the world go round.

              If you're a real business, be it a SME, local plumber or enterprise, buying links in form of a PBN, blog commenting, whatever, is only going to spell trouble long-term and there's nobody here who can deny that.


              This is what SEO has always been about. Buying links to increase your position on google. Just because a business buys a link from a PBN doesn't mean they will suffer for it in the long term. If the PBN gets shutdown and they lose their position guess what they can do? Find another PBN or SEO provider. This is what SEO has always been about. You get some backlinks....You get ranked where you want to.....The backlinks get removed for some reason or your competition out works you... You build MORE backlinks to pass them....and on.. and on.....and on....

              You shouldn't be scared to buy links because maybe one day these links won't matter. It's just the SEO game and that's the game we play.
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  • Profile picture of the author anymore
    Google is King

    If you make it to the top of Google for your main keyword, you will get paid because a lot of people start their search with Google when they are ready to make a purchase.
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  • It's apples and oranges. SEO isn't better then PPC and PPC isn't better then SEO. You could use both of these traffic sources and benefit from both sides of the spectrum.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    The OP is spitting rubbish that has no real meaning in the real world.
    Yes. Every Monday, Thursday and Saturday these posts tend to go wild. There's been 4 or 5 others today...

    Anyways, don't let me interfere with the ongoing convo...
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  • Profile picture of the author melvinsh
    No one needs to rely on just SEO. PPC and other targeted advertising can drive a lot of traffic. It is not a competition of SEO vs anything.

    Create good content and try and rank in Google under low to medium competition 3 word keywords first and if your website doesnt then your content sucks and site structure. So you may need to start over or you could have overdid it with backlinking.

    Only time I backlink is for awareness which are just a few comments and feature placements on authority sites. Thats all I needed to outrank competitors.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Alwell
    Not to forget that building organic SEO does come at a high price ----> time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike England
    I agree with your information. Definitely SEO is lower cost as compared with PPC, but SEO technique taking time to appear target keywords in the top organic results listing. We can get results by SEO when our target keywords rank in top listing. In PPC your ads will be present in top listing and you have a great opportunity to get your potential customers and instant conversions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Virtual Assistant Mom
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  • Profile picture of the author mmarty
    SEO only has low costs if you do it yourself.

    With PPC, you can achieve a great ROI if you use a very targeted, granular campaign.
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  • Profile picture of the author EntrepreneurDude
    Haha, agreed. But that wasn't something you had to sell me on in the first place. Organic is obviously where it's at, but PPC allows you to test out without waiting and working hard for months... So they each have their own place
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  • Profile picture of the author jgant
    If you can make money with both, they're both worth using. If you build websites you might as well incorporate at the very least on site SEO and get some organic traffic. If you can spend $1 on paid traffic and earn $1.35, you might as well spend away.

    It's not one or the other, especially with the many paid traffic options today. The only situation where SEO may be better is if you have the top spot on Google for a particular keyword, it may not be worth bidding for that keyword because why pay for that traffic if it's free? Even then you could view paying for a top listing with a top organic listing can result in a much lower average cost per visitor making it worth it.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
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      Originally Posted by jgant View Post

      If you can make money with both, they're both worth using. If you build websites you might as well incorporate at the very least on site SEO and get some organic traffic. If you can spend $1 on paid traffic and earn $1.35, you might as well spend away.
      Not a good example for a profit margin, I mean something as close as $0.35 profit could easily go negative as fast as the PPC ad goes live. No way I would make that gamble, even on a large scale.

      If you had said convert $1 to $4, I might consider something like that because the profit margin is high enough to recoup 3x the loss for non-buyers clicking PPC ads. Really it all depends on the sales page conversion rate from the PPC traffic source.

      A lot of people on this forum act like PPC is easy, it's not, there's a learning curve just like SEO.
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      • Profile picture of the author jgant
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Not a good example for a profit margin, I mean something as close as $0.35 profit could easily go negative as fast as the PPC ad goes live. No way I would make that gamble, even on a large scale.

        If you had said convert $1 to $4, I might consider something like that because the profit margin is high enough to recoup 3x the loss for non-buyers clicking PPC ads. Really it all depends on the sales page conversion rate from the PPC traffic source.

        A lot of people on this forum act like PPC is easy, it's not, there's a learning curve just like SEO.
        I suspect many people have this view, which is great for those of us who spend thousands per day in PPC and generate positive ROI daily... more competition would increase traffic costs.

        My ROI is higher than $1 to $1.35 but it's not $1 to $4 which would be awesome. However, I actually consider investing $100,000 per month and earning $35,000 profit like clockwork not a bad living. It's fairly easy to do once you have a buying system in place. If it's up and down with big negative days, that's a bit stressful, but I haven't had a negative day all of 2014.

        Once I figured out paid traffic, my profits exploded and they continue to grow every month. I earn fairly well from SEO as well... I certainly don't ignore it.

        I do agree that paid traffic takes some time to figure out and it requires consistent oversight and tweaking.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by jgant View Post

          I suspect many people have this view, which is great for those of us who spend thousands per day in PPC and generate positive ROI daily... more competition would increase traffic costs.

          My ROI is higher than $1 to $1.35 but it's not $1 to $4 which would be awesome. However, I actually consider investing $100,000 per month and earning $35,000 profit like clockwork not a bad living. It's fairly easy to do once you have a buying system in place. If it's up and down with big negative days, that's a bit stressful, but I haven't had a negative day all of 2014.

          Once I figured out paid traffic, my profits exploded and they continue to grow every month. I earn fairly well from SEO as well... I certainly don't ignore it.

          I do agree that paid traffic takes some time to figure out and it requires consistent oversight and tweaking.
          If your banking on a low profit margin maybe it's time to target another product/niche with better returns. IMO $1 to $4 conversion is still on the low end but doable. At least it spreads out the non-buyer ad clickers so there's less risk involved.

          One thing I've found is a lot of times traffic doesn't do comparison shopping for price. I know people claim everyone reads reviews & shops by price but that's not what I've seen. My point is maybe jack up your product price & see what happens with sales. If sales/profit increases it lowers the risk on PPC cost. Doesn't hurt to test.
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          • Profile picture of the author jgant
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            If your banking on a low profit margin maybe it's time to target another product/niche with better returns. IMO $1 to $4 conversion is still on the low end but doable. At least it spreads out the non-buyer ad clickers so there's less risk involved.

            One thing I've found is a lot of times traffic doesn't do comparison shopping for price. I know people claim everyone reads reviews & shops by price but that's not what I've seen. My point is maybe jack up your product price & see what happens with sales. If sales/profit increases it lowers the risk on PPC cost. Doesn't hurt to test.
            I agree. I do work in a high ROI local niche using PPC & SEO. However, the volume is less than my global niche. The global niche, while ROI is lower, traffic volume is much higher which at the end of the day results in much higher profits, but with lower ROI.

            With a higher volume niche, I'm able to incrementally increase my daily ad spend each month generating higher and higher profits. Yes, I will hit diminishing returns, but I don't think I'm anywhere near that yet, whereas with my local niche, I've more or less hit the ceiling some time ago in my targeted regions and industry.

            I could definitely focus on more local areas with more clients, but that's a lot more work than simply adding more global ad campaigns spending more money each month. More sites means exponentially more work; whereas adding new pages to a larger, global site is less work, yet offers more paid traffic potential (as well as organic search traffic).

            I've found there's several collateral benefits to running paid traffic to sites such as more brand exposure, more social media followers/fans, more email subscribers and definitely more monetization options. Generally, it's easier to increase RPM with a 1 million plus monthly page view site than a 50,000 monthly page view site. It's much faster to hit 1 million monthly page views with the help of paid traffic than SEO alone. Of course, the paid traffic alone must be profitable because collateral benefits don't warrant being in the red month after month.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hydraman
    The leads generated by SEO are better and hotter. - Highly debatable!
    SEO has extremely low costs - Not necessarily!
    Authority Value - It really depends!

    Originally Posted by Manuel Aguirre View Post

    Here's why organic "for me" SEO is better than PPC:


    1. The leads generated by SEO are better and hotter.

    A lot of people know that PPC is paid advertising

    Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated"

    So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.


    2. SEO has extremely low costs.

    You might want to outsource some stuff or hire an SEO service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free. It would be time consuming but worth it.

    Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to even $50 per click, that's insane.


    3. Authority Value.

    A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

    The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.


    Conclusion

    The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours .

    However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

    My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

    What would someone believe when they see your site there?

    "Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".

    The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $10k.

    Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

    What you think?
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  • Profile picture of the author Masondavis
    If you can make money with both, they're both worth using. If you build websites you might as well incorporate at the very least on site SEO and get some organic traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author manojbhai424
    I think organic seo is the best rather than PPC because organic seo is still showing in google . but in ppc when your account balance is zero than your add can not showing in google . organic seo is so easy and low cost you can also do by your hand .
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  • Profile picture of the author affiliatez
    Each "game" has its own rule and both SEO and PPC has own pros and cons
    SEO: low cost, after a while building authority for website, we donot need to spend any cent for link building BUT none can be sure that website won't hit google penguin or panda update and drop almost all the ranking!
    PPC is a real business for me, choosing PPC model, we are making money work to make money, what we need to learn is money management and the exact system or a sale funnel for best return ROI.
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    • Profile picture of the author dburk
      Hi Manuel,

      Only a fool thinks he must choose only one profitable channel.

      I see no problem in choosing only one channel of marketing when you are brand new to marketing and have limited resources. Regardless of whether you choose PPC, or SEO, as the place to start you will have a learning curve and you must pay a good deal to learn either. Choosing one or the other to focus on as a first step is ok, just don't get stuck on only one if you can help it.

      You guys that say SEO is "free" are very misguided in my opinion. It is not free, not ever, at least not to me. It always cost something, and for me it is very expensive because it requires one of my most valuable resources, my time. You might argue that it is cheap, if you put a low value on your time, but "free", that is just a lie that you tell yourself and others.

      If you value your time highly, then SEO is the most expensive channel to start off with, as it will require quite a bit of time just to get the data you need for the first round of optimization. With PPC you can get to that first data insight in a fraction of the time. Sure it may require a bit more cash investment at first, but as soon as you reach break-even it no longer requires investment to continue to gain marketing insights. In fact, in some cases you may be profitable from the very first day. That is almost never the case with SEO.

      I do believe that SEO is a channel we should all pursue, but don't base that decision on what you read in a forum, instead test and let the data guide you. Why guess when you could know?

      Personally, I would never consider investing in a major SEO campaign without first gathering data from a PPC campaign to test assumptions about the value of a keyword. Why take such a big gamble when there is no need?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by dburk View Post

        If you value your time highly, then SEO is the most expensive channel to start off with, as it will require quite a bit of time just to get the data you need for the first round of optimization. With PPC you can get to that first data insight in a fraction of the time. Sure it may require a bit more cash investment at first, but as soon as you reach break-even it no longer requires investment to continue to gain marketing insights. In fact, in some cases you may be profitable from the very first day. That is almost never the case with SEO.
        Though there is a good deal of your post to agree with the above paragraph is false because it assuming the kind of SEO being done and defining a small part of SEO as all of it. I suppose that's easy to fall into and many here do because they see no one discussing White Hat SEO very often. I don't even discuss it because if you start a thread on it it gets almost no interest and falls like a brick to page two and beyond.

        Several White Hat SEO strategies get you traffic from day one that is profitable. Link outreach to real websites can give you oodles of traffic as well as the link and they come flowing in from day one when the link is placed. link bait gets you the same. REAL guest posting/syndication is yet another traffic and link strategy. Furthermore link outreach begins the process of closing the sale by imparting credibility that the webmaster recommended you. I can have one webmaster recommend me and double my income just on that outreach and it IS SEO.

        If you don't know how to do SEO of course its expensive to anyone but PPC is the same - only with PPC you may well find yourself out of both time and money with no residual traffic when you stop paying.

        I'll have to disagree also with always testing keywords by PPC . In some cases yes thats a good strategy but in others and in many niches the keywords are no brainers well known in their niche to be what people are searching for and many SEO users and customers already know they result in sales. If you are a pizza shop you don't need to do a PPC campaign to know "pizza delivery" is a term you want to go after.

        Most people who talked about free were talking about money and even said time would be involved. Again this also comes down to strategy and the kind of SEO you are doing. A successful PPC campaign starts with a whole heap of leg work research and that cant be left out. Doing an adword campaign including research in a day is a recipe for losing your shirt

        What I notice all the PPC advocates leave out is that so often in targeting SEO organic terms you end up with traffic from long tail you never really planed for. Thats bonus traffic that PPC will never give you without paying for each click.

        Finally in regard to SEO practiced here TON LOADS of people in SEO are building infrastuctures that will allow for MULTIPLE campaigns lowering the cost in time and dollars for each one. A person with a network or even some tools does not have to start all over again with each campaign. Once they have done the leg work to have the SEO infrastructure they can do SEO lightning quick. I can now charge up all kinds of serps by doing very little but changing links on that infrastructure.

        PPC can not even be compared in that regard because you are using someone else's infrastructure you will never own any part of and will forever be paying for each click.
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        • Profile picture of the author dburk
          Hi Mike,

          I agree that most people who use the term "free" are talking about money, and that was part of my point. I believe that money, in a large way, was invented as a convenient way to exchange labor for goods. For my business, I view money and labor as interchangeable commodities.

          One of the first things you should learn, in comparing dissimilar techniques, is how to calculate ROI, which allows you to compare dissimilar items. When I look at labor expenses I view it in terms of cost, but not in just monetary cost, but also time value.

          Analyzing results based simply on ROI percentages is very flawed in my opinion. It often leads to poor choices. We must add the dimensions of time and scale to get a valuation that is truly useful.

          I was simply pointing out that one of the most common flaws that I see members of this forum make is in the concept of time, particularly when considering one's own labor expense. Many people seem to think that as long as they do not pay anyone else money then it is free. You can choose to look at it that way if you prefer, I am simply trying to awaken those that have the ability to see and grasp the point I am making. Time equals money, this is true whether we are speaking of your own labor, or of time in relation to scalability.

          If you are doing Internet Marketing as a hobby and that is all you seek, then yes, you might as well consider your time as free. Internet Marketing could be a fun way to take up your free time. My point was addressed to people that are involved in IM as a business rather than a hobby, so please disregard my comments if you are in the latter group.

          As to the white hat strategies you mentioned, I do not consider that to be SEO, yes there is an SEO technique that is applied to it, however, IMO it is more accurate to refer to that activity as website promotion. I do understand that a lot of people consider nearly any and everything they do as SEO if it increases traffic, but I personally consider those viewpoints as less precise in nature. Let's agree that we use slightly different definitions for the same things and the is no point in quibbling over semantics, shall we?

          Again, let me clarify that my points were meant for people that are marketing a business, and does not necessarily apply to those that are simply practicing a hobby. From the perspective of a business owner, time and labor equals money, I do understand that a hobbyist has a different viewpoint, sorry I wasn't more clear in my post.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by dburk View Post

            I was simply pointing out that one of the most common flaws that I see members of this forum make is in the concept of time, particularly when considering one's own labor expense.
            Your long rambling attempt at a lecture not withstanding you entirely missed the point. No one was denying the time aspect of cost. However many people have time without cash and for them PPC is not even an option if they want to get things going. To state the obvious since you seem to need to have the obvious spelt out for you those were the ones talking free. Welcome to WF.

            As for businesses - You really should get out and see the world Don. The world is full of small and large businesses that utilize SEO and don't hold your view as to the time cost being as high as you claim (and would laugh at your attempts to redefine SEO). Its like anything in life really - when you don't know what you are doing it takes long. If you do it doesn't. Perhaps they do and you well...just don't in regard to SEO. A good carpenter might finish a kitchen in a week and you would still be promising the wife six months later. With SEO you can also build infrastructures of all sorts that can be utilized a multiplicity of times - a fact that drives down the cost in both time and dollars which has no parallel in PPC.

            As to the white hat strategies you mentioned, I do not consider that to be SEO
            You have written some asinine nonsense before but this is perhaps your crowning achievement in comedy. You don't get to redefine an industry and those white hat strategies are SEO and have been for many years whether you are just too ignorant of SEO to know it or not. In many cases the outreach is specific for links so yep its SEO alright - actually mainline kind of SEO. Sorry if that blows up your thesis but it is what it is. As I stated before this is probably why you have so much trouble with SEO and it takes you so long - just not versed enough in how to do it and now apparently you have shown you don't even know the wider practices that go with SEO outside of what you see in IM forums.

            Again, let me clarify that my points were meant for people that are marketing a business,
            as were mine. Your lack of sophistication or knowledge of the SEO world outside of WF may make that fly right over your head but the points are applicable to business and you might realize that once you start a real one.

            if you want I can give you links (as I did another poster this week) of fortune 500 companies that utilize organic SEO traffic and make none of the claims that you make of it being more time consuming (and they have to pay cash per hour to their SEO employees). I do what I can for those who wish to be educated.

            at the end of the day your claims have been blown up. You can do SEO that gets immediate traffic with links and provided you know what you are doing you can do that in the same time it would take to do a PPC campaign particularly if you are reusing contacts and resources you have used before. Now if all you know is placing your own links on other peoples property and think thats all SEO is as you apparently do then yes THAT SEO does add up in terms of time.

            Try and make better points rather than living in denial and trying to redefine what SEO is and is not. Makes for a more intelligent conversation and we all want that.

            right???
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        • Profile picture of the author dburk
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          If you don't know how to do SEO of course its expensive to anyone but PPC is the same - only with PPC you may well find yourself out of both time and money with no residual traffic when you stop paying.
          Yes, I tend to agree, but it can be true for both PPC and SEO. Both should be part of an overall marketing campaign, they each have there advantages, and disadvantages.

          A well ran marketing plan will have lots of residual traffic, as well as influencing traffic from other channels. I would never consider using one without the other, that would be like going into a fist fight with one hand tied behind your back.

          I'll have to disagree also with always testing keywords by PPC . In some cases yes thats a good strategy but in others and in many niches the keywords are no brainers well known in their niche to be what people are searching for and many SEO users and customers already know they result in sales. If you are a pizza shop you don't need to do a PPC campaign to know "pizza delivery" is a term you want to go after.
          Perhaps we have differing viewpoints on how to use marketing data? I used to use the "shoot from the hip" approach before I learned how to properly analyze data to gain marketing insights. Keyword research isn't the only use of your data. I was referring to much more than keyword research.

          What I notice all the PPC advocates leave out is that so often in targeting SEO organic terms you end up with traffic from long tail you never really planed for. Thats bonus traffic that PPC will never give you without paying for each click.

          Finally in regard to SEO practiced here TON LOADS of people in SEO are building infrastuctures that will allow for MULTIPLE campaigns lowering the cost in time and dollars for each one. A person with a network or even some tools does not have to start all over again with each campaign. Once they have done the leg work to have the SEO infrastructure they can do SEO lightning quick. I can now charge up all kinds of serps by doing very little but changing links on that infrastructure.
          Please understand, I am not arguing against SEO, just against the ideal of using it exclusively for SEM. SEO combined with PPC has generally been far more potent for me than either one alone.

          For every benefit you find in SEO, I could match with an equally impressive benefit that you can get from PPC, but not SEO. The benefits that PPC offers that SEO does not could fill a book. However, that is not what I am arguing here. None of us must choose one over the other, nor should anyone be made to feel that they must. That is what I am arguing against. I am advocating for a integrated approach as the superior method.

          PPC can not even be compared in that regard because you are using someone else's infrastructure you will never own any part of and will forever be paying for each click.
          Again, not arguing against SEO. I have never been an advocate of using one channel exclusively, nor do I endorse a such a simple marketing strategy. It may work in small and less competitive niches, however where I typically compete you would get crushed with such a simple strategy. PPC can be used for many different types of campaigns and strategies, it offers far more traffic potential than SEO alone can provide. Perhaps that is why I chuckle a little whenever I see posts that assert "SEO beats PPC".

          Sure you can parse out specific attributes that one technique has over the other as an advantage, but many of the guys that look at them as competing against each others are people that have chosen to market one service that competes against businesses that market the other. I understand the motivation there is to win customers to your business, by discrediting the competition. I am just trying to provide a different perspective.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by dburk View Post

            . I understand the motivation there is to win customers to your business, by discrediting the competition. I am just trying to provide a different perspective.
            What competition might that be? I don't know if you will find it insulting but I've never thought of you as competitor I needed to even think about really. So do try and skip the theatrics for once Don. If you can't read I've posted earlier in this thread that the most intelligent response was to see them both good for what they are good at. I even stated there was much to agree with you on. No need to go running into "you are trying to get business" claims just because some of the points I raised in disagreeing with some of your claims you are inept to answer. I see a sig in your posts as well. Are you confessing by psychological projection?

            However I find no problem whatsoever with a thread in the SEARCH ENGINE OPTIMIZATION forum heralding the benefits of SEO over PPC since there have been mutiple threads and posters heralding PPC over SEO (I just wonder why PPC advocates feel so lonely they spend more time over here than their own forum).

            We both think they have a place but as long as some parties wish to then point out some alleged superior aspects of PPC its only fair that they be rejected/debated on logical grounds if thy don't stand up and also only fair that others say where SEO may be superior to PPC.

            Pretty simple. Its a forum. nothing to do with winning customers - especially on WF. I don't think any PPC manger is a competitor to a SEO provider here. If you think so then you are not very good at the marketing data you claimed you knew how to utilize.
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            • Profile picture of the author dburk
              Ah.... now there is the rude and insulting belligerent posts that we have all come to expect from you Mike. You never fail to get nasty if anyone has a viewpoint that is different from yours. You are the most consistently nasty forum troll we have here on WF. Thanks for your consistently hateful trolling.

              I am not going to take the bait for your non sequitur arguments. For the most part none of the expressed viewpoints about my reply are even remotely close to what I said, or think. I said what I said and I'll let it stand on it's own. You can defend what you said, but don't put my name next to your assertions, those are your assertions and yours alone, not mine, you defend them as I will not.

              Mike, I respectfully ask that you re-read what I wrote, and set aside your emotions and just discuss it with logic and reasoning, please leave the hate and vitriol out of this conversation.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                Ah.... now there is the rude and insulting belligerent posts that we have all come to expect from you Mike. You never fail to get nasty if anyone has a viewpoint that is different from yours.
                Poor form as usual Don.. You Implied twice VERY nastily in your first response to my completely reasoned response by suggesting that I was a "hobbyist" because I disagreed with you,then implied I was disagreeing with you just because I saw you as competition and now you are going to go into full throw down your dolly and scream "He's mean" mode? because you got an answer you didn't like the tone of? Nope won't work. Thats YOUR modus operandi.

                We disagree on the issue and you were out of line implying anyone that doesn't agree with your point/points are hobbyists just because they disagree. Live by your own claims of standards of logic and leave out the vitriol and passive aggressive swipes and we will be fine.

                Trying to redefine White hat SEO techniques as not SEO because they contradict your points has nothing to do with logic. Its just completely illogical.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  On a related note (and this is not just directed toward Dburk) can anyone tell me why we get all these SEO is dead, not a good long term model, PPC is better, PPC is better starting out, SEO too time consuming yada yada yada. blah bah blah posts and threads?

                  This IS the SEO forum.

                  New management separated the subject matters out and gave PPC and other marketing their OWN forums so why do those of us who want to talk SEO in

                  The SEO forum

                  have to put up with posters who for the most part don't even talk SEO? the link to the PPC section is right here

                  Pay Per Click/Search Engine Marketing (PPC/SEM)

                  Why does the OP have to get attacked for a thread about SEO being his choice and "for him" it being better than PPC?

                  Its the SEO forum.

                  I wouldn't go over into the PPC section and expect to not see advocates of PPC being better "for them" or argue about it being silly to see PPC advocacy in the PPC forum.

                  Get a grip. Its not our fault so few people are in there. Spend more time there - not here - and up the numbers
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                  • Profile picture of the author dburk
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    On a related note (and this is not just directed toward Dburk) can anyone tell me why we get all these SEO is dead, not a good long term model, PPC is better, PPC is better starting out, SEO too time consuming yada yada yada. blah bah blah posts and threads?

                    This IS the SEO forum.

                    New management separated the subject matters out and gave PPC and other marketing their OWN forums so why do those of us who want to talk SEO in

                    The SEO forum

                    have to put up with posters who for the most part don't even talk SEO? the link to the PPC section is right here

                    Pay Per Click/Search Engine Marketing (PPC/SEM)

                    Why does the OP have to get attacked for a thread about SEO being his choice and "for him" it being better than PPC?

                    Its the SEO forum.

                    I wouldn't go over into the PPC section and expect to not see advocates of PPC being better "for them" or argue about it being silly to see PPC advocacy in the PPC forum.

                    Get a grip. Its not our fault so few people are in there. Spend more time there - not here - and up the numbers
                    um... did you read the title of the post? Just in case you missed it, the post title is "Why Organic SEO Beats PPC!" Seems 100% on topic to discuss the actual topic of the post title.

                    I don't think the OP was attacked... he introduced a topic for discussion in a public forum, and we are discussing it.

                    Also, IMHO it makes sense to talk about PPC in relation to SEO as it is often used as an integrated approach to marketing on Search Engines. Plus, PPC is one of the most valuable tools that are available to SEO experts. Perhaps that is why the topics were integrated before?

                    The new management eliminated PPC from this forum. A month or so ago they finally realized there was no forum for PPC discussions and they added a forum for SEM that included PPC. That doesn't mean the topics that compare, or discuss the use of both techniques can't be discussed in either forum, as they are closely related, and both target the same users on the exact same website at the exact same time.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                      um... did you read the title of the post? Just in case you missed it, the post title is "Why Organic SEO Beats PPC!" Seems 100% on topic to discuss the actual topic of the post title.
                      Sure then do so without your "chuckle" at the idea. Did you read the OP. Here notice the bolded words

                      Here's why organic "for me" SEO is better than PPC
                      What in the word is wrong with that?

                      I don't think the OP was attacked... he introduced a topic for discussion in a public forum, and we are discussing it.
                      For someone just crying like a baby about me you sure do have a curious blind eye don't you? Whats this? Positive constructive support ?

                      Please, the whole post is ridiculous. The OP is spitting rubbish that has no real meaning in the real world.
                      Thats the kind of thing I was referring to.

                      Also, IMHO it makes sense to talk about PPC in relation to SEO as it is often used as an integrated approach to marketing on Search Engines. Plus, PPC is one of the most valuable tools that are available to SEO experts
                      Outside of Google's keyword tool a professional SEO doesnt need PPC to do SEO. Where in the world are you getting that from? You are kind of making up things as you go along denying well known white hat strategies aren't SEO and now claiming they are bound together.

                      The new management eliminated PPC from this forum. A month or so ago they finally realized there was no forum for PPC discussions and they added a forum for SEM that included PPC. That doesn't mean the topics that compare, or discuss the use of both techniques can't be discussed in either forum, as they are closely related, and both target the same users on the exact same website at the exact same time.
                      Nope that means there are two forums BESIDES the SEO section to discuss PPC and buying traffic directly. Here

                      Ad Networks (CPM/CPL, Display, SEM)

                      and here

                      Pay Per Click/Search Engine Marketing (PPC/SEM)

                      claiming it needs to be discussed in here as well is just flat out ridiculous. PPC advocates need to give people who prefer SEO a break in the SEO forum. Its gotten WAY out of control.
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  • Profile picture of the author Charli
    I'm reading Evan Bailyn's book "SEO Made Easy" and just watched his tutorial on SEO. From what I have gathered:

    PPC = Push
    Linking = Pull

    Now while he did not dismiss PPC, he did state he uses it for short term. The real magic is 'linking' to the popular kids - the trustworthy sites and it's a process. I think I would rather pull people to my site organically than push them via PPC. But that's just me.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Charli View Post

      I'm reading Evan Bailyn's book "SEO Made Easy" and just watched his tutorial on SEO. From what I have gathered:

      PPC = Push
      Linking = Pull

      Now while he did not dismiss PPC, he did state he uses it for short term. The real magic is 'linking' to the popular kids - the trustworthy sites and it's a process. I think I would rather pull people to my site organically than push them via PPC. But that's just me.
      Same here, it's far easier to coach traffic into a sale than to try & force traffic into a sale.

      Example, when I shop for cars on a car lot I don't want to talk to a sales person when I first get to the car lot. I want to look around on my own time, If I see a vehicle I'm interested in then I'll talk to a sales person. If I don't find a vehicle I'm interested in, I don't want to hear a sales pitch for a car I don't care about. Same goes for any other product, online or offline.

      I make a lot of sale contacts on Craigslist & my single best technique is to leave out at least one important bit of info. on the CL ad, usually I leave out the price. The reason I leave out the price on the ad is to make the CL traffic want to contact me instead of me forcing something on to them. When you turn the buyer/seller table around traffic doesn't feel like they're being sold to, so they respond easier. This same technique works for organic SERPs. Tell traffic you have something for sale & leave out some important info., they'll make the contact. Obviously make it extremely easy to contact you.

      I don't have anything against PPC but the ROI has to be high or it's not an option. If I was a local roofer spending say $500 on PPC to generate a $10,000 sale that would be a no brainer. In that example the ROI is way higher than the PPC cost. There's a big enough gap for risk/reward to still be comfortable.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    You're aware what a giant douche bag you come off as to anyone with a basic college education in either accounting or economics, right dburk?

    You setup a bad Ethos, then you told Mike to watch a metric that doesn't really tell you what's going on in a merchandising business (which is what most of us run) and you proceed to follow that up with this hollow attitude of supremacy that has it's foundation planted in false dialogical logic.

    Just stop. Say you think PPC is great and move on. I don't know if your attempt to seem cool and level headed while using semi-creative writing is actually impressing any of the newbies or lesser educated here - but to someone that understands business accounting, you really look pathetic.

    I mean it's so bad that you could be saying something 100% true about PPC traffic but when you surround it with your self-inflating garbage it's completely discrediting.

    Should I have linked out to some words in there, or did you catch all that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

      You setup a bad Ethos, then you told Mike to watch a metric that doesn't really tell you what's going on in a merchandising business (which is what most of us run) and you proceed to follow that up with this hollow attitude of supremacy that has it's foundation planted in false dialogical logic.

      I dunno. I thought him claiming that link outreach to webmasters wasn't SEO was some of his most entertaining work.
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      • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I dunno. I thought him claiming that link outreach to webmasters wasn't SEO was some of his most entertaining work.
        Really.... REALLY?!?

        Are you trying to force me to address the fact that what he "Considers" SEO is irrelevant to what SEO actually is?

        If I sat here and told you I considered WF a large multi-user contributed blog, it really wouldn't matter because it's still a forum at the end of the day.

        Of course, all of this only brings out another flaw in his misunderstanding of accounting and economics.

        First you have the use of a limited resource (time) and the appropriately assigned monetary value of it (which is in part a study of economics.) Then you have the appropriate entries of that labor expense to determine what actually matters in a merchandising business (and this would be were accounting comes in) being of course the Net Operating Income of your business.

        I mean "ROI" - really? Where did he pick that up as the be-all, end-all financial metric? Sure it's important, but it's just a part of the Net Operating Income which is what actually makes or breaks a business.

        And then surround all of that crap with blow-hard verbiage and the implication that nobody could possibly know what a phrase like non sequitur meant?

        I've got to get out of here before I get banned... This guy is ridiculous.

        Let him jerk himself off on his own tears he cries when it dawns on him that he's not nearly the intellectual professional that he seems to think he is. Tell me how it goes later...
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        • Profile picture of the author dburk
          Wow, double teaming trolls. Pour it on won't you, it shows everyone your true self.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            In the entire time I have been here I have never had ocassion to learn anything from Dburk in regard to the subject of SEO. I cannot say that of MikeF, Goy, Yukon, or countless other long term members of WF in this SEO section.

            Its no surprise that someone that has a long history of arguing for PPC in a forum whose topic is organic search engine optimization would try and redefine the word troll as he does with SEO as well.
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            • Profile picture of the author accessted
              Originally Posted by dburk View Post

              Wow, double teaming trolls. Pour it on won't you, it shows everyone your true self.

              That was funny.. The double troll thing

              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              In the entire time I have been here I have never had ocassion to learn anything from Dburk in regard to the subject of SEO. I cannot say that of MikeF, Goy, Yukon, or countless other long term members of WF in this SEO section.
              I have to say... When I see posts from the names you mentioned I will always read the thread... Even if I am not interested in the topic..
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            • Profile picture of the author dburk
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              In the entire time I have been here I have never had ocassion to learn anything from Dburk in regard to the subject of SEO. I cannot say that of MikeF, Goy, Yukon, or countless other long term members of WF in this SEO section.

              Its no surprise that someone that has a long history of arguing for PPC in a forum whose topic is organic search engine optimization would try and redefine the word troll as he does with SEO as well.
              Yes I noticed that you never learn anything... from me, nor rarely from anyone else.

              I only argue for what I believe to be the truth. I don't get the mindset of arguing for one marketing channel over another when they are both great, in my opinion, and even better when used together. I see so much nonsense on this forum that I feel compelled to give members a different viewpoint, especially when I see the same fallacies repeated so often that people begin to accept it without question.

              Whenever I see what I believe to be a fallacy becoming a popularly accepted notion, I often reply to shed a little truth on the subject. Those that value ideas that are popular without ever questioning the truth will nearly always be on the opposing side of these discussions. As I am deliberately challenging popular notions, I expect a lively discussion to follow. In the end everyone gets to read both sides of the controversy and perhaps this will encourage others to test popular notions to find out if they are true or not.

              When I see rubbish, vitriol, scams and myths on this forum, I am not afraid to challenge it, nor am I afraid of forum bullies, trolls and the sort. You may have noticed that I challenge the words and ideas when I see things that don't match the reality of years of testing. I never take what you say personally because I have noticed that you seem to attack everyone that ever disagrees with you. I am in good company.

              I follow the scientific method and test everything that looks like it may have merit. If you have never benefited from the discussions that's okay by me. I have received many messages of thanks from members, and even a few PMs thanking me for standing up to the forum bullies that try to start flame wars against anyone that has a different opinion. As long as someone benefits I okay with it.

              It's time that Warriors stop basing their knowledge on what they hear most people saying, and to to start challenging popular notions that just don't hold up under real world testing. To do that you must not only test but learn how to perform valid tests.

              Outside of Google's keyword tool a professional SEO doesnt need PPC to do SEO. Where in the world are you getting that from? You are kind of making up things as you go along denying well known white hat strategies aren't SEO and now claiming they are bound together.
              Yes, I am not afraid to challenge a notion, just because it is popular. And yes, I do use many things things that SEO workers (professional or otherwise ) might not have heard about. Please allow me to share a few for those reading this thread that are able and willing to learn.

              Sure there are no-brainer methods of just picking a short head keyword to target. Just because a keyword has high volume doesn't mean it will be a good converter. While you can use the keyword tools to to learn about search volume, you cannot tell how one keyword converts compered to another until you have collected that data for yourself. That's where PPC comes in as an excellent tool for SEO professionals that use science and math rather than a shoot from hip approach.

              It is simple to setup a test campaign to find the CTR, and conversion rate of a list of keywords. This data will provide an approximate value per click, and give an indication of the CTR you can expect after ranking the keyword in organic results. With this data you can prioritize the targeting of your keywords for the quickest most profitable return on investment.

              Additionally you can use PPC to test page titles, headlines, value propositions, and description snippets so that once you have ranked your page you are already using content that has been optimized for maximum CTR and conversion rates.

              Could you get this data without using PPC? You can get some data without PPC, however it will take much much longer to gather and it will never be as accurate as you cannot run multiple variations in split tests is available on the AdWords platform.

              The difference in gathering actionable data is like the difference in traveling by jet airplane verses a bicycle. Sure the airline ticket is much more expensive, but you can go much further and faster.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by dburk View Post

                Yes I noticed that you never learn anything... from me, nor rarely from anyone else.
                Nope still can't read. I've learned from Goy, Mike Friedman and lots of others. You? Nope partially because you are mostly in the SEO section to talk PPC and partially because you can't teach what you don't know.

                Whenever I see what I believe to be a fallacy becoming a popularly accepted notion, I often reply to shed a little truth on the subject.
                You don't you just muck it up like Goy stated .

                When I see rubbish, vitriol, scams and myths on this forum, I am not afraid to challenge it,
                Good so you should understand why I challenge your garbage erroneous statements like link out reach is not SEO. One of the all time silliest things any person who has been around this forum has EVER stated. I 'd respond to the rest but al I see is self congratulations for some one who hasn't said anything of substance to congratulate. You do like your empty verbage so lather it up. You are still utterly clueless on the subject of SEO while pretending not to be but anyone and everyone can now see it as clear as day with your blundering attempts to redefine what is SEo is and isn't.
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  • Profile picture of the author sohilsingh121
    PPC is fast service to get result, but SEO is a slow process to get result. Most important thing is that, SEO is a way where you can get Unique Visitors day by day.
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  • Profile picture of the author affiliatez
    PPC is a method to drive fast target traffic while SEO is a long term strategy to build an asset (your authority website) for long term traffic. I prefer SEO as i just need to invest effort and some money for the first stage then enjoy the gowing traffic when i keep publisj more content on a daily basic.
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  • Profile picture of the author sufisarfi
    Because organic traffic is free in long run... But you have much control over Paid traffic
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  • Profile picture of the author npoint
    SEO is getting more and more expensive ,every year, it`s something Google laughing cos they will do everything to make SEO costs closer to their PPC to convince people SEO is too risky and not worth of the money anymore ...

    But as the history showed many times, SEO industry will always find the way to game Google (:
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