Is PBN considered a form of [SPAM] or is it a legitimate way to boost your site SEO?

molak

10 years ago

There are lots of schools of thought on the above subject, But Its definately working for some of my niche site

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kmagnet 10 years ago

Originally Posted by molak

There are lots of schools of thought on the above subject, But Its definately working for some of my niche site

Is there anyway you can tell the success rate for PBNs are they can get quite expensive isn't or do you build these PBNs yourself? Why is PBN so effective anyway?
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John Romaine

10 years ago

Also known as "Search Engine Manipulation"

It's spam, and it doesn't help anybody.

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Also known as "Search Engine Manipulation"

It's spam, and it doesn't help anybody.

Thanks John, how does PBNs manipulate search engines? Is it because it's creating spam backlinks?

Thanks
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Marx Vergel Melencio

10 years ago

KMagnet,

Originally Posted by kmagnet

how does PBNs manipulate search engines?

PBNs TRY to simulate natural backlinking in an ATTEMPT to manipulate Google results. Backlinks are considered as just one out of many ranking metrics deployed by Google to rank Web pages for relevant keyword searches. However:

This may or may not cause spammy SE results. For one thing, Google has so far, in my opinion, done a fairly decent job, despite these PBNs, in preventing spammy results with their algorithm updates (starting with Panda)...

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Marx Vergel Melencio

KMagnet,

PBNs TRY to simulate natural backlinking in an ATTEMPT to manipulate Google results. Backlinks are considered as just one out of many ranking metrics deployed by Google to rank Web pages for relevant keyword searches. However:

This may or may not cause spammy SE results. For one thing, Google has so far, in my opinion, done a fairly decent job, despite these PBNs, in preventing spammy results with their algorithm updates (starting with Panda)...

Hey thanks there, are PBNs considered duplicate content then?

Thanks
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PaidAllDay

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Hey thanks there, are PBNs considered duplicate content then?

Duplicate content refers to content that is duplicated on your own site.

If Google discovers your PBN because of a footprint they could impose ranking penalties on your site. But I think that is the whole point of a PBN to control a network of sites and artificially boost your rankings without them knowing about it. In other words it's still a very effective method even if you want to call it spam.

Using a PBN is certainly not an approved method of SEO, then again neither is purchasing backlinks.

Thanks
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patco

10 years ago

Originally Posted by PaidAllDay

Duplicate content refers to content that is duplicated on your own site.

Sorry, but I don't think this is a duplicated content... According to your post, almost every wordpress blog should be marked as duplicated. PROOF:
1) You post an article.
2) This article is also on the homepage
... This should mean the content is duplicated? NO!

A duplicated content is when you copy a text from another web page and paste it in your blog/website...

Sorry for my addition, I am sure this was just a mistake!

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PaidAllDay

10 years ago

Originally Posted by patco

Sorry, but I don't think this is a duplicated content... According to your post, almost every wordpress blog should be marked as duplicated. PROOF:
1) You post an article.
2) This article is also on the homepage
... This should mean the content is duplicated? NO!

A duplicated content is when you copy a text from another web page and paste it in your blog/website...

Sorry for my addition, I am sure this was just a mistake!

Yes, that can be duplicate content if you have an article on your home page, on a category page, and on the post itself. Which is why you should set up your robots.txt to block google from indexing the same thing twice.

Using excerpts instead of full articles on the home page will prevent the case you mentioned.

"Duplicate content generally refers to substantive blocks of content within or across domains that either completely match other content or are appreciably similar."

source: https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/66359

They can't penalize you if your article is republished so it's actually much easier to enforce a penalty for duplicate content on the same domain. Which is why you should be more worried about duplicate content on your own site.

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jinx1221 10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Hey thanks there, are PBNs considered duplicate content then?

This is where I actually see GOY saying (in his Dr. Evil voice):

"You just don't get it, do you.. you don't."
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nik0 Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Also known as "Search Engine Manipulation"

It's spam, and it doesn't help anybody.

Yes it's spam but it definitely helps people move their site to the top and when done semi decent these rankings can be maintained for a long long time to come.
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Sangfroid

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Also known as "Search Engine Manipulation"

It's spam, and it doesn't help anybody.

Not true, my friend. It helps many people to rank their sites.

I don't see it as spam. You are linking to your own sites. Big
stinking deal! If the sites have good, original, relevant content,
no harm, no foul.

Be Well
Dom

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

Not true, my friend. It helps many people to rank their sites.

I don't see it as spam. You are linking to your own sites. Big
stinking deal! If the sites have good, original, relevant content,
no harm, no foul.

Be Well
Dom

Is it really expensive to setup a PBN or can one do it for a cheap price? Just curious what's so expensive about setting up PBNs cause everytime I saw an offer to set up a PBN, they always go for at least $1000!!

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Is it really expensive to setup a PBN or can one do it for a cheap price? Just curious what's so expensive about setting up PBNs cause everytime I saw an offer to set up a PBN, they always go for at least $1000!!

Probably the most expensive part of it is the time involved both in finding quality domains and then setting up sites on them.

Domains themselves can cost anywhere from $75-500 a piece for good ones. They can go for a lot more too, but I'm sure anyone offering to setup a network is not buying very expensive ones. The more they spend, the more it cuts into their profit.

Content can cost a few bucks too.

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Probably the most expensive part of it is the time involved both in finding quality domains and then setting up sites on them.

Domains themselves can cost anywhere from $75-500 a piece for good ones. They can go for a lot more too, but I'm sure anyone offering to setup a network is not buying very expensive ones. The more they spend, the more it cuts into their profit.

Content can cost a few bucks too.

Makes good sense, do you know of any course that talks about PBN and shows the how to's as well? Ta!

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Is it really expensive to setup a PBN or can one do it for a cheap price? Just curious what's so expensive about setting up PBNs cause everytime I saw an offer to set up a PBN, they always go for at least $1000!!

Considering how well even what some people would consider a weak PBN works $1000 is cheap. As google is slowly cutting off the air to almost all other long term grey hat strategies the competition for domains just getting greater and greater driving up the prices. 1-2 years ago you might have got a PR3 for $50 that was well backlinked but its nothing now to pay three and four times that now (You can still OCCASIONALLY get that strength for registrar fees but you have to be setup to research and acquire them)

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anwar001

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Considering how well even what some people would consider a weak PBN works $1000 is cheap. As google is slowly cutting off the air to almost all other long term grey hat strategies the competition for domains just getting greater and greater driving up the prices. 1-2 years ago you might have got a PR3 for $50 that was well backlinked but its nothing now to pay three and four times that now (You can still OCCASIONALLY get that strength for registrar fees but you have to be setup to research and acquire them)

In my opinion, don't go where everybody else is going. When you see a large crowd going in a certain direction, try to avoid going there. Even if that thing is proving effective, it probably won't be long before its gone forever. Take the road less traveled.

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by anwar001

In my opinion, don't go where everybody else is going. When you see a large crowd going in a certain direction, try to avoid going there. Even if that thing is proving effective, it probably won't be long before its gone forever. Take the road less traveled.

What is the risk % of getting caught and getting links devalued for PBN or is there anyway that one can protect your PBN domain?

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

What is the risk % of getting caught and getting links devalued for PBN or is there anyway that one can protect your PBN domain?

Yes, there are a lot of ways to protect your private network and make it much less likely to get slapped by Google.

As for the risk percentage, if you do it well, it is pretty close to zero.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

Not true, my friend. It helps many people to rank their sites.

And how does that help me when I land on a thin site built purely for backlinking purposes? It doesn't. It's spammy crap.

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

I don't see it as spam. You are linking to your own sites. Big stinking deal! If the sites have good, original, relevant content,
no harm, no foul.

That's an assumption that I'm doing no harm simply by "linking" to my own sites using PBN properties. I don't. I have paying clients. I run an agency and work with big businesses. Some of which pay in excess of $3-5,000 per month. They're not interested in paying me that sort of money to build crappy PBN's. People's livelihoods are at stake. People's businesses. People's jobs. You don't just take on a big client and slap up links on crappy domains and sit back and sip lemonade.

Anyway, I digress...

The truth of the matter is this...

You talk about "linking to your own sites", like it is harmless, and guess what? I agree, BUT your intention isn't the same as someone who might have say, 3 websites and he just wants to link them together because he loves what he does and he wants his visitors to know about his other websites. On the other hand you have people that have dozens, or even hundreds of sites built SPECIFICALLY as part of a PBN to create artificial links.

Chances are, you wouldn't have those 500 thin sites all filled with backlinks if you weren't trying to manipulate the search engines. Face it. If you were doing "no harm", as you say, you would be putting effort towards a site (or two) that actually contains high quality, useful, engaging content and actually working towards building an audience and your brand. Instead, you're investing yourself towards something that is going to eventually fail.

Originally Posted by edpudol1973

I agree with you first point. Any link building we are doing to our site are all considered Search Engine Manipulation.

Not true.

What about link reclamation, citations and outreach? Nothing manipulative about that at all.

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

On your second point that PBN does not help, I am willing to bet anything I have. You use your own technique without PBN and I will used PBN in 2 weeks to 4 weeks I am confidence that I will outrank you for any keyword that you want us to target, as long as we both start from new sites.

I'm not interested in competing with you. Not because I dont have confidence in what I do, but because I simply don't care. The method that I use will continue to work long term, whilst PBN's will eventually be squashed. As it stands, it wouldn't be very difficult for Google to stamp out PBN's literally overnight.

Look, don't get me wrong, I've been down the whole road of building out a PBN. I get it, and YES it does work, but it's stupid.

Have a think about this...

How much money, time and effort do you spend on -

Looking for suitable domains?
Buying the domains?
Paying for software to help you through the process?
Building the actual websites?
Creating the content for those sites?
Dealing with writers?
Fixing up content (editing etc)
Managing domain expirations, renewals etc?
Organising, paying for and managing hosting?
Trying to remember what site is hosted where, and what content is published where?
Worrying about getting slammed by Google?

Don't try and tell me this takes no time at all and costs nothing, because I've been down this road, a LONG way down, before I realised it was utterly stupid.

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Yes, there are a lot of ways to protect your private network and make it much less likely to get slapped by Google.

As for the risk percentage, if you do it well, it is pretty close to zero.

Agreed, but the way I see it, is that the ONLY way to prevent getting caught is to build NEAR PERFECTLY NATURAL WEBSITES, that is with contact pages, author pages, content, interlinked content, images, photos, audio, video etc.

But then if you're going to muck around doing that, then why not just build natural sites to begin with??????

All Google need to do is run a filter and say...

1. Does this site have any credible citations? No.
2. Does this site have an associated author? No.
3. Does this site have almost ALL if not all of it's outbound links coming from the root domain? Yes.
4. Over time, does this website seem to be linking OUT more than it's getting links IN? Yes.
5. Does the theme of this site, match it's historical link profile? No.
6. Are a lot of links "dropping off" over time? Yes.
7. Does the content on this site seem "thin" (no images, no interlinking, no formatting, no comments or discussions)? Yes.
8. Does this site have a social media presence? No.

and on and on and on it goes.....

Sure, I could be miles off on these points, but there's definitely some truth in what I say. Anyone here that knows anything about PBN's knows within seconds, what a PBN property looks like. It's not hard.

All you need is for a competitor to look, a hired SEO agency or consultant, or worse a Google employee, and it's game over.

All that time effort and money is wasted.

Seems pretty stupid to me.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

why not just build natural sites to begin with??????

??? Natural PR n/a sites to begin with, clients have long cancelled before they rank when taking such approach.

Unless you boost these sites with a PBN.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

??? Natural PR n/a sites to begin with, clients have long cancelled before they rank when taking such approach.

Unless you boost these sites with a PBN.

I'm not talking about telling a client to "build a new site and let's rank it in one weekend". I'm talking about people that invest themselves into building out dozens or hundreds of thin crappy sites in order to manipulate the search engines.

I've seen it time and time again since 2001, as I'm sure most of us have.

"I wasted all this money and time building these stupid sites trying to rank in Google, now they've all been penalised....I wish I had of just built a proper website and focused all of my efforts on doing that".

You don't need to build a PBN to get results, but most people ...

Don't know what they're doing
Are too impatient
Just do what everyone else is doing, OR
Know what they should be doing, but couldn't be bothered to put in the work.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

I'm not talking about telling a client to "build a new site and let's rank it in one weekend". I'm talking about people that invest themselves into building out dozens or hundreds of thin crappy sites in order to manipulate the search engines.

You said "could just as well build natural sites to begin with" as a replacement for PBN.

Where is the pagerank/juice when building brand new sites, what kind of replacement is that.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

You said "could just as well build natural sites to begin with" as a replacement for PBN.

Where is the pagerank/juice when building brand new sites, what kind of replacement is that.

I think you've misunderstood me.

Here's an example...

Last year I had a client come to me for help. His (let's call it a money site) was tanked in the search engines. Essentially it was over optimised, both onpage and off.

During the campaign, I uncovered literally dozens of thin crappy sites that he had built out, as his own PBN, essentially trying to game Google.

He had invested MONTHS, (close to a year) mucking around ...

buying the domains
sorting out hosting
publishing content

and on and on ....

It was ridiculous.

Guess what? All the time and effort that he had invested towards trying to game Google distracted him from what he should have been doing from the very beginning - and that was....

Just focus on his ONE main site!

I ended up pulling all of the rubbish and doing a whole bunch of other stuff, and got him on first page for all of his terms. Needless to say afterwards he realised just how much time he'd wasted.

Often trying to take short cuts is the longer way round.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

I think you've misunderstood me.

Here's an example...

Last year I had a client come to me for help. His (let's call it a money site) was tanked in the search engines. Essentially it was over optimised, both onpage and off.

During the campaign, I uncovered literally dozens of thin crappy sites that he had built out, as his own PBN, essentially trying to game Google.

He had invested MONTHS, (close to a year) mucking around ...

buying the domains
sorting out hosting
publishing content

and on and on ....

It was ridiculous.

Guess what? All the time and effort that he had invested towards trying to game Google distracted him from what he should have been doing from the very beginning - and that was....

Just focus on his ONE main site!

I ended up pulling all of the rubbish and doing a whole bunch of other stuff, and got him on first page for all of his terms. Needless to say afterwards he realised just how much time he'd wasted.

Often trying to take short cuts is the longer way round.

I know you preach/use whitehat but it sounded like you used natural sites as a replacement for PBN sites.

When a client signs up with me for $198/mo he gets 10 domains solely for him, I get the content written in about 24 hours, publish it the next day using the schedule function and there we are, costs me maybe 2-3 hours of my own time. I buy the domains from the only solid broker out there (it seems) as I tried other brokers as well before and it was always rubbish.

So what took him almost a year can be accomplished in a few hours with the right set up.

In the case someone ends up with a penalty due to links the links can be removed in 15 minutes and they'll recover within a month, well recover, back to the positions where they ranked prior to the new links.

Upside from my point of view is that they would rank much faster and much cheaper, downside is that the rankings might not last forever but with all the time + money saved they could easily have another site as standby or multiple.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

I know you preach/use whitehat but it sounded like you used natural sites as a replacement for PBN sites.

I'm not preaching, I'm voicing my opinion here based upon my own experiences.

Originally Posted by nik0

When a client signs up with me for $198/mo he gets 10 domains solely for him

See, what does that even mean?

..hang on, don't answer that, keep reading.

Originally Posted by nik0

I get the content written in about 24 hours, publish it the next day using the schedule function and there we are, costs me maybe 2-3 hours of my own time. I buy the domains from the only solid broker out there (it seems) as I tried other brokers as well before and it was always rubbish.

So for $198 a month, you've...

Held meetings or at least conversed at *some* level with the client to understand their objectives
Searched for, found and purchased 10 domains
Sorted out hosting
Installed a CMS on each
Sent a work order of some description to a writer
Received the content back, and published it
And all the other miscellaneous tasks that always pop up in between...

All for $198???

Your hourly rate must be $2

I don't know man, you might be better off getting a job at the local hardware store. No offence, but there's no way in hell you can run a legitimate service offering at those numbers. I have a team of 6 people that I employ and we charge $125 an hour.

But to do SEO the right way, takes time, and this is essentially what the client is paying for. Sure, I could charge the same and slam up some links on a PBN, but I want my business to be around long term.

But anyway, you don't care about my business, nor should I expect anyone else to. Each to their own.

Originally Posted by nik0

So what took him almost a year can be accomplished in a few hours with the right set up.

Where do you get a "year" from? Each campaign is different. Usually terribly different, even in the same marketplaces. I've gotten results for some clients (without a PBN) in 3 months. What's best is that those sites will continue to tick along without me having to "worry" about a PBN.

As for getting results in a few hours, I don't work with business owners with those sorts of expectations. They're idiots.

Originally Posted by nik0

Upside from my point of view is that they would rank much faster and much cheaper, downside is that the rankings might not last forever but with all the time + money saved they could easily have another site as standby or multiple.

Again, not interested in "fast" or "cheap".

Anyway, it's late man, not having a go at anyone, I'm just trying to make the point that you CAN get good results without the hassles of a PBN.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

So for $198 a month, you've...

Held meetings or at least conversed at *some* level with the client to understand their objectives
Searched for, found and purchased 10 domains
Sorted out hosting
Installed a CMS on each
Sent a work order of some description to a writer
Received the content back, and published it
And all the other miscellaneous tasks that always pop up in between...

All for $198???

Your hourly rate must be $2

I don't know man, you might be better off getting a job at the local hardware store. No offence, but there's no way in hell you can run a legitimate service offering at those numbers. I have a team of 6 people that I employ and we charge $125 an hour.

Don't worry about my hourly, but yes all for $198/mo cause as I told you it doesn't cost me more then 2-3 hours to set up a new client, source domains, outsource content and send all the details to a VA to publish all of it.

Sure we had some issues with VA at the start and sometimes still but once they do the same trick a 1000 times even they can learn to do a proper job.

You mentioned your client wasted almost a year on PBN, so that's where I got it from.

The thing with me is that I alraedy have 80 shared hosting plans on standby and always a few dozen domains in stock I can pick from. Buying 40 PR3+ domains takes me on average 1 day so time break down:

- Answering emails few times / verifying payment: 15 minutes
- Select & Research 10 domains from a broker list: +/- 2 hours
- Setting Namesevers / Addon domains / Installing CMS: 1 hour
- Send work order to writer: 20 minutes
- Forward content to VA to publish: 5 seconds
- Checking the work: 30 minutes

So slightly more then 4 hours work when I add it all up together, and that for a recurring $198/mo, not too bad.

Now my cost break down:

- 10 domains: $900,-
- content for 10 domains: $250,-
- VA costs: $30,-
- My time: $0,-/hour

Total: $1180,-

If the client cancels I re-use the domains for someone else obvious cause otherwise it would be a huge losing business.

Work gets spread out over 2 months so that I don't lose on it as I only receive $198/mo and my direct costs are $280,- as you can see.

I do have to admit that if I didn't have 400+ domains in stock I probably wouldn't have taken this approach as it would otherwise take me 6+ months to break-even which would obvious be a huge cost if someone would just be starting but that's obvious not the case here.

It was time consuming to make the huge change for 80 clients so there were countless weeks working many hours but now that it's all setup it hardly requires any of my time as I have very few new clients and most of the existing ones are subscribed for a long time already. So if I have to put an hourly price at my work, starting from today I suppose I make about $400+/hour, just slightly better than working in a grocery shop.

I work less then 10 hours a week though so you won't hear me complaining much.

I don't actively seek new clients anymore, bump my thread maybe once a week and sometimes not for over a month, one reason is that SEO is less popular so I don't see the return of bumping fees like I used to, secondly I'm almost through my domains and don't feel that comfortable shelling out $1k+ upfront.

Imagine what would happen if I got 100 new clients at $198/mo each month, that would cost me $120k+ with only $20k coming in, wouldn't be very sustainable as I would quickly run dry on funds but in my situation with hundreds of domains and existing clients already it works out pretty well.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

??? Natural PR n/a sites to begin with, clients have long cancelled before they rank when taking such approach.

Unless you boost these sites with a PBN.

Nobody said natural PR n/a sites, but yeah I do build a lot of those.

None of my clients cancel for that.

You cater to people who just want to buy backlinks. If all they are doing is buying backlinks, then sure they want to see stronger links. That is because of the service you are offering though.

I reject backlink buyers that inquire about my service. I'm not interested in those clients. It's a different clientele.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Nobody said natural PR n/a sites, but yeah I do build a lot of those.

None of my clients cancel for that.

You cater to people who just want to buy backlinks. If all they are doing is buying backlinks, then sure they want to see stronger links. That is because of the service you are offering though.

I reject backlink buyers that inquire about my service. I'm not interested in those clients. It's a different clientele.

I was quoting John.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

I was quoting John.

I know. He said to build natural sites. He didn't say anything about PR n/a sites.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

I know. He said to build natural sites. He didn't say anything about PR n/a sites.

Check his list again!

He would get in conflict with his own ideas that he listed which would so easily detect a PBN site so obvious he means brand new sites, hence my comment.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

You said "could just as well build natural sites to begin with" as a replacement for PBN.

Where is the pagerank/juice when building brand new sites, what kind of replacement is that.

Again, you are thinking in terms of a backlink seller.

Originally Posted by nik0

Check his list again!

He would get in conflict with his own ideas that he listed which would so easily detect a PBN site so obvious he means brand new sites, hence my comment.

They don't have to be brand new sites. They could be acquired sites, repurposed sites, or brand new sites that you also do some SEO work on.

It's not just a matter of setting a brand new site and never doing anything with it again, if you know what you are doing.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Again, you are thinking in terms of a backlink seller.

They don't have to be brand new sites. They could be acquired sites, repurposed sites, or brand new sites that you also do some SEO work on.

It's not just a matter of setting a brand new site and never doing anything with it again, if you know what you are doing.

Know what you're doing, let me guess, blasting it with some social bookmark gigs like you recommend in your guide, oh wait with a buffer domain in between?

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

Know what you're doing, let me guess, blasting it with some social bookmark gigs like you recommend in your guide, oh wait with a buffer domain in between?

Yeah, I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Social bookmarks are useless for anything outside of indexing.

By the way, you love to rip that guide publicly, but from everything you have talked about the last few months, you have been changing quite a bit of your network that you use for clients to follow a heck of a lot of it.

There is so much more you can do with new domains to generate traffic. Everything in SEO does not revolve around PBNs.

Branding, funnel traffic, steal competitor's traffic... I could go on, but nevermind. You like your small box. Keep doing what you are doing.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Yeah, I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Social bookmarks are useless for anything outside of indexing.

Whatever though

Oh wait 75.000 blog comments, 2000 wikis and 100 web2.0s, sorry for that, kind of confused one of them with social bookmarks. Now know what the hell I'm talking about perhaps? Did you know most bookmarks are dofollow and most blog comments / wikis nofollow? Minor detail.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

Oh wait 75.000 blog comments, 2000 wikis and 100 web2.0s, sorry for that, kind of confused one of them with social bookmarks. Now know what the hell I'm talking about perhaps? Did you know most bookmarks are dofollow and most blog comments / wikis nofollow? Minor detail.

niko, that was one example of a way you could try to juice up a new domain in a bit of a spammy way. There was a little more to it than that, and there is a lot more explained on how to do it better in the other course. It is also not something I heavily advocate.

I do however advocate using new domains in a network. Absolutely. I want links from weaker domains in a backlink profile.

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John Romaine 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

I reject backlink buyers that inquire about my service. I'm not interested in those clients. It's a different clientele.

I avoid them big time, because they're looking at the process, and not the end goal. They're time wasters. I've got better things to do than deal with muppets that want to argue over links in an ahrefs report.
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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Agreed, but the way I see it, is that the ONLY way to prevent getting caught is to build NEAR PERFECTLY NATURAL WEBSITES, that is with contact pages, author pages, content, interlinked content, images, photos, audio, video etc.

But then if you're going to muck around doing that, then why not just build natural sites to begin with??????

All Google need to do is run a filter and say...

1. Does this site have any credible citations? No.
2. Does this site have an associated author? No.
3. Does this site have almost ALL if not all of it's outbound links coming from the root domain? Yes.
4. Over time, does this website seem to be linking OUT more than it's getting links IN? Yes.
5. Does the theme of this site, match it's historical link profile? No.
6. Are a lot of links "dropping off" over time? Yes.
7. Does the content on this site seem "thin" (no images, no interlinking, no formatting, no comments or discussions)? Yes.
8. Does this site have a social media presence? No.

and on and on and on it goes.....

Sure, I could be miles off on these points, but there's definitely some truth in what I say. Anyone here that knows anything about PBN's knows within seconds, what a PBN property looks like. It's not hard.

All you need is for a competitor to look, a hired SEO agency or consultant, or worse a Google employee, and it's game over.

All that time effort and money is wasted.

Seems pretty stupid to me.

Sorry to say John.

You have no idea of how the "actual" web looks, if you think that any of that list correlates with what a "bad link" should look like. 99.9% of the web is pure-spam according to that criteria.

I'm yet to meet anyone who has read the Google Guidelines (Some random website that offers a search function) before they created a webpage. You live in this weird alternate universe, where everyone is born with a Google guideline handbook stuffed into their diaper. The web is not built with Google in mind, and never will be. It's Google who is playing catchup with the world, not the other way around.

The word "Thin Content" has been extremely misinterpreted by many in my opinion, as to have some kind of quantifiable measuring stick you can apply to content in order to grade it. A lot of the crap you listed springs to mind, when we hear about "Thin Content".

Thin content to me is simply the "fulfillment of expectation" written in the Meta data. If my content matches how I describe it, then there is nothing thin about it.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire

Sorry to say John.

You have no idea of how the "actual" web looks, if you think that any of that list correlates with what a "bad link" should look like. 99.9% of the web is pure-spam according to that criteria.

That list was off the top of my head. I never said it was "accurate".

I'm not suggesting there's an easy solution, but Google has an enormous amount of both data and resources. Eventually they will find a way.

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Sangfroid

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

And how does that help me when I land on a thin site built purely for backlinking purposes? It doesn't. It's spammy crap.

And your links are not spam??

Originally Posted by John Romaine

That's an assumption that I'm doing no harm simply by "linking" to my own sites using PBN properties. I don't. I have paying clients. I run an agency and work with big businesses. Some of which pay in excess of $3-5,000 per month. They're not interested in paying me that sort of money to build crappy PBN's. People's livelihoods are at stake. People's businesses. People's jobs. You don't just take on a big client and slap up links on crappy domains and sit back and sip lemonade.

Right, your link spam, I get it. Pay 3-5k a month for link spam.

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Anyway, I digress...
The truth of the matter is this...
You talk about "linking to your own sites", like it is harmless, and guess what? I agree, BUT your intention isn't the same as someone who might have say, 3 websites and he just wants to link them together because he loves what he does and he wants his visitors to know about his other websites. On the other hand you have people that have dozens, or even hundreds of sites built SPECIFICALLY as part of a PBN to create artificial links.

Yes, I have the evil intention of making money. Of course, you don't
make money on your link spam, right?

FYI - - this was NOT my quote. At least quote what I said, please.
Originally Posted by Sangfroid
On your second point that PBN does not help, I am willing to bet anything I have. You use your own technique without PBN and I will used PBN in 2 weeks to 4 weeks I am confidence that I will outrank you for any keyword that you want us to target, as long as we both start from new sites.
.[/QUOTE]

Anyhow, nice debate.............

Be Well
Don

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

They're not interested in paying me that sort of money to build crappy PBN's. People's livelihoods are at stake. People's businesses. People's jobs. You don't just take on a big client and slap up links on crappy domains and sit back and sip lemonade.

Bleh. You are full of assumptions. Of course for client like that you leverage their positioning and advertising. You wouldn't build crappy PBNs or probably even premium ones.. Your problem is you look at a forum and some sigs and think that's all anyone does. No its all that anyone advertises HERE. White hat never does well here and perhaps never will

Meanwhile for all the self righteousness you are throwing around its very common in the industry at that level of pay to BUY links either directly or by leveraging partnerships and business associations. Pot meet kettle. Hundreds of links in many cases existing not because the content is spectacular or even good but because of market connections

you would be putting effort towards a site (or two) that actually contains high quality, useful, engaging content and actually working towards building an audience and your brand.

Perhaps you should learn some more about it. There's these things people call money sites and they can, should and often do engage in all the above for those sites. Your assumption is once again that PBN's are only used for poor sites but that's utterly false..

Still I am not unsympathetic to some of the things you say and I think for the upper tier companies/corporations PBNs are generally not the best way to go but here's where you miss things -

The average small to mid size businessman does not have the resources and time to either hire or do whitehat link building. I see people claiming this all the time but its just TOTALLY unrealistic. The typical business man is good at his business and spends all of his time on his core business - asking him to become a writer and build his online presence ignores there are 24 hours in a day and the average small business owner cannot be asked to shell out 40-50,000 a year to a SEO.

In may cases PBNs are an equalizer against the big company that frankly can afford to do white hat because its easier to do white hat when you have a big advertising budget and you have influence from exposure. Pepsi would have a right to be upset if someone built them a PBN. They can with a single national ad campaign get exposure to get hundreds of organic links (which are essentially paid for by the TV ads). But what does that do the small business man

Unfortunately all google or people such as yourselves have ever suggested for those small businessmen is what cannot and will not work for most of them and thats in part the reason why may serps are dominated by big brands with big bucks.

IN many cases these small businesses are pretty good at what they do and if it were based on their merit as a plumber, contractor, accountant, dentist etc they would rank gangbusters. So the claim that its not based on merit is false

What about link reclamation, citations and outreach? Nothing manipulative about that at all.

Now that part is nonsense - link outreach can be every bit as "manipulative". Deals can and often are made under the table and webmasters are primed with incentives to give links. You'll probably deny it but if you really are in that market I bet you have made some of those deals. Its neither organic or natural. It s just can't be traced.

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jinx1221

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Meanwhile for all the self righteousness you are throwing around its very common in the industry at that level of pay to BUY links either directly or by leveraging partnerships and business associations. Pot meet kettle. Hundreds of links in many cases existing not because the content is spectacular or even good but because of market connections

....

Now that part is nonsense - link outreach can be every bit as "manipulative". Deals can and often are made under the table and webmasters are primed with incentives to give links. You'll probably deny it but if you really are in that market I bet you have made some of those deals. Its neither organic or natural. It s just can't be traced.

Add to the fact that big business has the revenue to go about seo differently (connections, partnerships, acquisitions, etc), they're also really careful to not let happen to them what happened to JcPenney:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/bu...anted=all&_r=0

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by anwar001

In my opinion, don't go where everybody else is going. When you see a large crowd going in a certain direction, try to avoid going there. Even if that thing is proving effective, it probably won't be long before its gone forever. Take the road less traveled.

Then don't do SEO. On this board thats the road less travelled. PBNs will be gone only when links no longer matter. There are already ways of doing it that most don't do so the large crowd thing need not apply.

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Sangfroid

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Is it really expensive to setup a PBN or can one do it for a cheap price? Just curious what's so expensive about setting up PBNs cause everytime I saw an offer to set up a PBN, they always go for at least $1000!!

Hi Kmagnet,

Well, a decent money site can go for about $1-2000. I paid
$1300 for a PR 6 site.

The auxiliary sites usually go for $69-100 each.

You might check out this site for inexpensive expired sites.
Pure Quality Domains
Don't know if they have anything worthy of a money
site,

Usually, you need to search thru Register Compass and
double check the links thru Ahrefs. Then win an auction
at Namejet.

Be Well
Don

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

Hi Kmagnet,

Well, a decent money site can go for about $1-2000. I paid
$1300 for a PR 6 site.

The auxiliary sites usually go for $69-100 each.

You might check out this site for inexpensive expired sites.
Pure Quality Domains
Don't know if they have anything worthy of a money
site,

Usually, you need to search thru Register Compass and
double check the links thru Ahrefs. Then win an auction
at Namejet.

Be Well
Don

Ok so I see a lot of people claim that PBN is Spam but also some claiming it's not so can anyone give an example of PBN being Spam versus PBN that's not Spam? Perhaps that could clear up some of the arguments about PBN

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Mike Anthony 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

I don't see it as spam. You are linking to your own sites. Big
stinking deal! If the sites have good, original, relevant content,
no harm, no foul.

Yep. This was all Google's doing (and those who worship Google). Spam has always been leaving messages in other people's space (email/website). The idea that a corporation can tell me what and what I can't put on my own sites they do not own or host is pretty ridiculous.

They can take action on their own site (search results) if they wish but I'll decide where, who and how I link to from sites under my ownership. I cannot spam my own sites anymore than I can spam my own email address - I gave permission.

What makes it even more hilarious is that the company that calls PBNs spam manipulates their own search results for cash (adwords in the organic column) and secretly (many people do not know) leaves cookies on peoples system to to get cash (adsense).

Ask any person claiming PBNs are spam how they can defend that claim and they do nothing but give you the Google party line with no rationality. Just replying like zombies.
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anwar001

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

Not true, my friend. It helps many people to rank their sites.

I don't see it as spam. You are linking to your own sites. Big
stinking deal! If the sites have good, original, relevant content,
no harm, no foul.

Be Well
Dom

Ah Ha! Nice way to look at it. Unfortunately Google does not hold the same view. You are linking to your own sites but what is the intent behind it? To manipulate rankings in Google and try to fetch higher rank for yourself. Google considers it spam that is why we often hear all this talk of hiding footprints and PBN's getting de-listed or banned etc.

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by anwar001

Ah Ha! Nice way to look at it. Unfortunately Google does not hold the same view. You are linking to your own sites but what is the intent behind it? To manipulate rankings in Google and try to fetch higher rank for yourself. Google considers it spam that is why we often hear all this talk of hiding footprints and PBN's getting de-listed or banned etc.

As per above, Would anyone know of a way to use PBN for non-spammy purposes?

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edpudol1973

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Also known as "Search Engine Manipulation"

It's spam, and it doesn't help anybody.

I agree with you first point. Any link building we are doing to our site are all considered Search Engine Manipulation. If you consider PBN as spamming then all link building that you are about to do your self is spamming.

On your second point that PBN does not help, I am willing to bet anything I have. You use your own technique without PBN and I will used PBN in 2 weeks to 4 weeks I am confidence that I will outrank you for any keyword that you want us to target, as long as we both start from new sites.

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by edpudol1973

I agree with you first point. Any link building we are doing to our site are all considered Search Engine Manipulation. If you consider PBN as spamming then all link building that you are about to do your self is spamming.

On your second point that PBN does not help, I am willing to bet anything I have. You use your own technique without PBN and I will used PBN in 2 weeks to 4 weeks I am confidence that I will outrank you for any keyword that you want us to target, as long as we both start from new sites.

Hi Edpudol, do you have any good step by step guide on how to build PBNs the effective way?

Cheers!

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jinx1221

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Hi Edpudol, do you have any good step by step guide on how to build PBNs the effective way?

Cheers!

If you're not blind you would see that a few people responded to you with courses and/or pre-made PBN's for you.

If you are blind, what are you doing on the internet?

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by jinx1221

If you're not blind you would see that a few people responded to you with courses and/or pre-made PBN's for you.

If you are blind, what are you doing on the internet?

Sigs are turned off by default for new logged in users so he doesn't have to be blind. Just hasn't turned on signatures.

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Marx Vergel Melencio 10 years ago

Everyone,

E X C U S E me, BUT:

Jinx1221,

Originally Posted by jinx1221

If you are blind, what are you doing on the internet?

I'm totally blind, and you may be surprised what I along with my blind associates in my 9-year old Certified Microsoft Partner global ICT consulting company have been doing since 2003 on the Internet!
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godoveryou

10 years ago

[DELETED]

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MikeFriedman 10 years ago

Originally Posted by godoveryou

I mean, is everyone just going full-retard in 2015?

If only that was new for 2015.
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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

[DELETED]

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godoveryou 10 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

The forum has went full retard.

I'm going to need more whiskey...
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- kmagnet 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by godoveryou
  
  I'm going to need more whiskey...
  
  Let us all drink to that!
  
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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

LMAO how the thread was derailed by duplicate content which has nothing to do with a PBN.

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alexnob

10 years ago

Actually, if you know a method to rank your website completely under your control, you've competing with Google and Google doesn't like this.
Nothing called "White hat" in SEO according to me!

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kmagnet

10 years ago

Originally Posted by alexnob

Actually, if you know a method to rank your website completely under your control, you've competing with Google and Google doesn't like this.
Nothing called "White hat" in SEO according to me!

Would you happen to know of a method that doesn't require PBN or spamming links that you could share?

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SEWARRIOR

10 years ago

PBN, is not SPAM, as you post the content on your own website/blogs but sure its 100% search engine manipulation and if you leave your traces, your site will be penalized and PBN will be generally delisted from SERP

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Makes good sense, do you know of any course that talks about PBN and shows the how to's as well? Ta!

Yes. Yes I do.

Under your User CP, turn on signatures.

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Yes. Yes I do.

Under your User CP, turn on signatures.

This ones quite good too,

Private Network 2.0 Course

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire

This ones quite good too,

Private Network 2.0 Course

...which also includes a private SEO forum.

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deezn

10 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

...which also includes a private SEO forum.

Please don't.

You'll turn it into warrior-lite and it'll be ruined.

jdang ...

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MikeFriedman 10 years ago

Originally Posted by deezn

Please don't.

You'll turn it into warrior-lite and it'll be ruined.

jdang ...

Nah, I hear they keep that place well moderated.

And just so nobody thinks that I am being anti-mod with that comment, I am not. I mean that with a private paid forum, moderation is not even really necessary.

Just do not want there to be any confusion.
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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by deezn

Please don't.

You'll turn it into warrior-lite and it'll be ruined.

jdang ...

Hey jdang,

The other forum has two major advantages to prevent junk profiles, paid members & moderating the forum. No link spammer would ever consider paying a penny for joining a forum which makes moderating easier. To be honest I doubt there's any real moderating needed on the other forum besides organizing the forum since the paid membership filters out all the nonsense.

I think I get what your saying, there's a big difference between the two forums as far as attitudes but that goes back to a paid membership screening out all the junk profiles. Notice around here at about 3AM EST there's always spammy threads being started with nonsense questions like: how to increase alexa score, what's a backlink, is social taking over SEO, etc...

WF had paid membership not too long ago which put a stop to most of the link spammers posting nonsense, then as soon as the grandfathered spammer profiles started to thin out they stopped the paid membership & this place went back to the Wild West free for all for fake profiles.

At least with the Mike F. forum it's an SEO forum ran by an actual SEO, not some low paid moderator that can't even spell SEO let alone take the time to do their job moderating the live forums instead of only looking at the back end moderator forum waiting for other forum members to complain about threads (most forum members will never report a problem thread, spam, etc...).

Anyways, Mike F. has a few advantages on his own forum to keep the place running smooth.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Nah, I hear they keep that place well moderated.

Originally Posted by yukon

The other forum has two major advantages ...................
At least with the Mike F. forum it's an SEO forum ran by an actual SEO, not some low paid moderator that can't even spell SEO let alone take the time to do their job moderating the live forums

Woah...

(EDIT: and just so no one gets the idea I was mind reading Mike edited his post after I took issue with it and added sentences that were never there before)

It s like that eh? Two ex mods making jokes/taking shots at the new mods and promoting their forum right bang in the middle of a warrior forum thread. lol

Anyway If I might...we now return to regular programming in progress.......

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Woah...

It s like that eh? Two ex mods making jokes/taking shots at the new mods and promoting their forum right bang in the middle of a warrior forum thread. lol

Anyway If I might...we now return to regular programming in progress.......

Nope not at all. My comment was simply pointing out that the problems of large public forums do not exist on small private ones. Nothing more than that.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Nope not at all. My comment was simply pointing out that the problems of large public forums do not exist on small private ones. Nothing more than that.

Pure nonsense Mike. Try something else . You were giving a testimonial to your own product/forum as compared to this one

Originally Posted by deezn

Please don't.

You'll turn it into warrior-lite and it'll be ruined.

jdang ...

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Nah, I hear they keep that place well moderated.

That place is not a reference to any small forum but one specific - your own. You are fabricating you referred to small forums in general.

I was the one that actually suggested to you that you start a forum but Mike fair is fair. You can't use WF to promote your product or its forum in open threads. You've been very vocal against that kind of thing with others.

To put this in perspective what will you say if Nik0 decides to have a forum for his SEO clients and then start talking up his paid forum? We both know what you would think of that and you KNOW I know what you would think of that.

If you defend that then you need to apologize to Nik0 for all the times you called his posts promotional. Its hypocritical. I 'm not against your forum (shucks objecting and bumping is probably going to make you some money. I know how that works). Again if you remember I suggested it to you by PM and I believe even recommended platforms to do it on but fair is just plain fair.

Of all the things that were never allowed to be promoted on WF even in your sig was another forum looking to compete with it. You and Yukon are not only promoting it but bashing the forum you are promoting it on.

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

You and Yukon are not only promoting it but bashing the forum you are promoting it on.

I'm telling you things you don't know (ex: new mods sending help PMs). You also don't know the lack of communication the new admin is famous for, trust me, it doesn't exist. If anything I feel sorry for the new mods. Personally I told new admin I no longer wanted to be a mod about a month before they got rid of all the volunteer mods. I knew we were being lied to & they proved it a month later.

The comparison was pointing out the other forum pretty much doesn't even need modding because junk is filtered out as a paid forum.

Warrior Forum old admin knows for a fact this works because this forum once had a small time frame of charging money for new forum profiles & instantly eliminated all new spam profiles, as soon as the grandfathered spam profiles started to taper off the old admin stopped charging money to be a forum member & the spam resumed.

There's a HUGE difference in legit profiles compared to counting profiles on a free forum where a large percentage is spam. The thread subjects are like night & day as far as quality.

Really it's not even an issue to promote other forums in the same niche. Most people interested in a specific niche belong to multiple same niche forums.

I still answer questions here trying to help out, just because I joined another SEO forum doesn't mean that's changed.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I'm telling you things you don't know (ex: new mods sending help PMs). You also don't know the lack of communication the new admin is famous for, trust me, it doesn't exist. If anything I feel sorry for the new mods. Personally I told new admin I no longer wanted to be a mod about a month before they got rid of all the volunteer mods. I knew we were being lied to & they proved it a month later..

Yukon you just don't seem to get it. You are no longer a mod. You have no business talking down the modding on here while promoting another forum It doesn't matter whether you are right wrong or whatever. I suspect you know it too and so does Mike.

You are promoting a product and service in an open thread something that Mike ripped Nik0 for all the time and worse you guys are comparing directly with warrior forum ON warrior forum.

Look the bumps and my taking issue is only going to do MIke good right now but you both probably are going to get yourselves in issues if you keep up with it.

Oh and Kevin I kinda scanned through your rant but not really read it. You are good for a joke one out of ten but meh...industry professional??....umm I'll pass myself. So I won't even respond to that last flame directly. Its just not important enough to me. the answer to the first line is that I took it as meaningless. From someone I really don't need to bothered with much.

I'll let you in on a secret though - there will be more industry professional posts right here and free.

Yeah There will always be more newbs here but frankly I see a number of newbies with promise. They just need a little help.

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Oh and Kevin I kinda scanned through your rant but not really read it. You are good for a joke one out of ten but meh...industry professional??....umm I'll pass myself. So I won't even respond to that last flame directly. Its just not important enough to me.

Oh boo hoo hoo, Mike is going to be condescending, and show a complete lack of respect to anyone who doesn't agree with him. Whats new?

Unfortunately for you Mike, I'm someone who does not depend on WF for anything other than fun and good conversation. I can delete this profile right now and walk away without any iota of loss to me. You on the other hand are not so independent of this forum, I guess that's why you are trying to position yourself as some kind of WF police.

But just like you, I could be doing far more important things right now than reading your posts entirely. But I guess that's the difference between me and you.

I have some respect for others.

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yukon Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Yukon you just don't seem to get it. You are no longer a mod.

You don't get it, new mods making contact with old mods asking for help.

Figure it out or ignore it.

I'm done, not getting into the middle of a 7 page thread rant.
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jinx1221

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Yeah There will always be more newbs here but frankly I see a number of newbies with promise. They just need a little help.

I've been noticing this alot very recently. It seems the auto-bots and foreigners (not people from other countries asking legitimate questions but I think you all know what I mean) are slimming down quite a bit. The rest all you have to do is read the title and the question, you can tell whether it's a junk thread or someone really wanting to know.

For the whole forum self-promo thing, I honestly think Mike was half teasing and having a laugh, till everybody else (especially Kev) started making it into a serious 'thing', then shit gets real from there. Seems the only one lightening up around here IS Mike lol! Go figure

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by jinx1221

I've been noticing this alot very recently. It seems the auto-bots and foreigners (not people from other countries asking legitimate questions but I think you all know what I mean) are slimming down quite a bit. The rest all you have to do is read the title and the question, you can tell whether it's a junk thread or someone really wanting to know.

For the whole forum self-promo thing, I honestly think Mike was half teasing and having a laugh, till everybody else (especially Kev) started making it into a serious 'thing', then shit gets real from there. Seems the only one lightening up around here IS Mike lol! Go figure

Are you reading me like that too? Damn I must go re-read the whole thread.

The OP asked for a PBN course, I gave him a link to one (Mikes) I thought was a good course. I get dragged into an argument about forum promotion, and spend the whole thread telling Mike it was me who was promoting and maybe he should chill out a bit. If that's making anything serous idk jinx.

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jinx1221

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire

Are you reading me like that too? Damn I must go re-read the whole thread.

The OP asked for a PBN course, I gave him a link to one (Mikes) I thought was a good course. I get dragged into an argument about forum promotion, and spend the whole thread telling Mike it was me who was promoting and maybe he should chill out a bit. If that's making anything serous idk jinx.

No big dude, I've pointed out to people in other threads about Mike F's course and Mike A's pre-built Pbn's, and somehow along the way pissed off someone who was seeing impaired lol!

Just re-read Mike A's first response about the forum, I took it as a funny jab between friends, cause that's what we do. Mike A then exaggerates being serious and everyone turns the thread into something with entertainment value

I'm now gonna jab Mike F:

Boy is that fricken easier than typing!!

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by jinx1221

Just re-read Mike A's first response about the forum, I took it as a funny jab between friends, cause that's what we do. Mike A then exaggerates being serious and everyone turns the thread into something with entertainment value

Actually I was half serious but yeah when you read that first post I DELIBERATELY toned it way down and made a joke of it. However I guess unless I bowed over and fell down in agreement it just wasn't enough.

After that first post yeah I was serious. It aint right to do what they are doing and heres the kicker. they used to delete posts just like the ones they are saying are fine now. I saw a couple posts recommending my products vanish over the last year . Of course I don't know who deleted them but hey 2 out of the 3 ex-mods in this section are right in here now promoting another forum.

IF I had knew they thought it was fine just as long as I was bashing mods and promoting a forum I would have modified accordingly ...lol (umm no I wouldn't)

Anyway Nik0 is no doubt going to be announcing his forum soon. Stay tuned!!!!!

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Anyway Nik0 is no doubt going to be announcing his forum soon. Stay tuned!!!!!

Not in a million years.

Actually I'm kind of done with forums as it's a pretty inefficient way of spending my time, sure it made me, but it won't be able to maintain my business, unless you count repeat business but those have other ways to find me now.

I'm going to experiment a bit with paid traffic and list building as I love statistics, as a young kid I already loved math so that should work out. SEO is taking so damn long these days when starting from zero, it's just not funny. Sure I have existing sites to build up on but they are so niche focused like ricecookersplaza.com (not a site of mine, just an example) that it would look pretty ugly to offer all kind of kitchen appliances on such site.

So few authority sites that can improve in rankings slowly but steadily and in the meanwhile I'll do some list building, promote some free give aways, optimize for conversions and play around a bit with paid traffic and probably I'll blog about it along the way and build a list for my content platform and SEO services.

Tired of being called self promotional so if you like to follow me you can join my list, see sig link.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Yep I have grown tired of even black hat/grey hat and am making my own transition myself (as my linkless sig states). Probably will surprise you that I will join your list and follow you. I might even do a blog on my own transition. I've been neglecting other traffic methods outside of SEo and even white hat link building strategies but they are a lot less boring and so much more innovative. grey hat SEO just seems to sit still plus yes its a fair criticism that it is always under the gun by google (I just don't think white hat is feasible for many businesses...not yet)

Finally getting back too the ummm subject of this thread

I still think PBNs will have use for quite some time but the writing is on the wall that if you don't have one in place soon it probably will be too cumbersome and expensive to build one. It does take much longer to rank. Remember the good old days? Place links boom a week you were flying to front page and beyond?

Some people have put traffic/quality declines here down to new management but I think whats really been happening is people are moving on from SEO because the SEO talked about here is stuck. Consequently yep you are right again. SEO related forum marketing is not as lucrative as it used to be and at least for me (and apparently for you ) not worth the time. My sig according to 2015 plans went on vacation a couple days ago.

Should be an interesting year though. MIke A the black hatter transitions to whitehat and Nik0 the alleged self promoter on forums forgets about forums.

I wouldn't worry about that after this thread though. who could say a thing now?

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Yep I have grown tired of even black hat/grey hat and am making my own transition myself (as my linkless sig states). Probably will surprise you that I will join your list and follow you. I might even do a blog on my own transition. I've been neglecting other traffic methods outside of SEo and even white hat link building strategies but they are a lot less boring and so much more innovative. grey hat SEO just seems to sit still plus yes its a fair criticism that it is always under the gun by google (I just don't think white hat is feasible for many businesses...not yet)

I've grown tired of the actual work involved for a long time already, setting nameservers, adding domains, installing plugins + themes, fixing hacked sites, making screenshots of rankings, compiling anchor text links and what not, not very exciting work of course, but well it brings in the bucks so I will keep doing it as long as PBN's work so probably for a long time to come.

Not really a fan of whitehat to be honest, especially the content creation part, unless I find a good outsourcer for that someday, but that will probably be near impossible.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I still think PBNs will have use for quite some time but the writing is on the wall that if you don't have one in place soon it probably will be too cumbersome and expensive to build one. It does take much longer to rank. Remember the good old days? Place links boom a week you were flying to front page and beyond?

Some people have put traffic/quality declines here down to new management but I think whats really been happening is people are moving on from SEO because the SEO talked about here is stuck. Consequently yep you are right again. SEO related forum marketing is not as lucrative as it used to be and at least for me (and apparently for you ) not worth the time. My sig according to 2015 plans went on vacation a couple days ago.

Should be an interesting year though. MIke A the black hatter transitions to whitehat and Nik0 the alleged self promoter on forums forgets about forums.

I wouldn't worry about that after this thread though. who could say a thing now?

Yeah good old times, now takes a lot more links and a lot more time.

Traffic sucked long berfore, I've seen a downward trend in new sales for 1.5 year already, and it has only been months the forum is taken over. To all good things comes and end, it seems no matter what you do in business only lasts for about 3 years, at least that's my experience from before as well, so every 3 years it's like you need to make a complete overhaul to go along. Ok maybe it's actually 7 years but I just jump in late or something.

Either way I'm now in a better position to try things, Google favors larger more informative sites, fine then we build such sites right and build up PBN sites in the same way as we previously build money sites, that way they even have a decent change of ranking and driving traffic by their selves and heck they are likely to survive a manual review as well.

But yeah for people just starting out it doesn't seem like the most interesting thing to do anymore.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

That part didn't tire me out because I automated it. I did get pretty burned out analyzing and searching for domains on the market. You can't really automate all that out Plus the prices just keep going up and you would have patches where you just can't find good domains (particularly at the scale of building it for others). Really truly was not using Hayden's method (don't want to get into that again) but nowadays just about anything with domains starts to get saturated since it the only viable way to ensure authority links.

Now in order to catch up on orders that fell behind or that were falling behind I have just stopped advertising and will only do that kind of work for a few people going forward if at all. SEO always made the most money for me anyway and white hat the most.

Once I even everything out and take care of past due stuff I'll be completely putting everything over to a relative (who I have trained) hands to do what they want. Just helping out on that or I would be completely moved on to other stuff.

Originally Posted by nik0

I've grown tired of the actual work involved for a long time already,

setting nameservers, adding domains, installing plugins + themes, fixing hacked sites, making screenshots of rankings, compiling anchor text links and what not, not very exciting work of course, but well it brings in the bucks so I will keep doing it as long as PBN's work so probably for a long time to come.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

That part didn't tire me out because I automated it. I did get pretty burned out analyzing and searching for domains on the market. You can't really automate all that out Plus the prices just keep going up and you would have patches where you just can't find good domains (particularly at the scale of building it for others). Really truly was not using Hayden's method (don't want to get into that again) but nowadays just about anything with domains starts to get saturated since it the only viable way to ensure authority links.

Now in order to catch up on orders that fell behind or that were falling behind I have just stopped advertising and will only do that kind of work for a few people going forward if at all. SEO always made the most money for me anyway and white hat the most.

Once I even everything out and take care of past due stuff I'll be completely putting everything over to a relative (who I have trained) hands to do what they want. Just helping out on that or I would be completely moved on to other stuff.

That's exactly why I stick to the rental model, good domains are not unlimited available. Two days ago I got a list from my broker again and bought 32 out of 98 available PR3 domains. Took me about a day to analyze. I really wouldn't know what to do without him yeah I know what but don't even want to think about it.

On regular base I get emails from people that have a hard time finding even a handful of solid domains at reasonable prices. It's funny that none of the large companies like Ahrefs, Majestic or OSE haven't found a way to determine the strength of a domain in a solid way. Now and again I still see domains with hardly any links at all (worthy or not) with a TF of 30, or a MozRank of 4.

From OSE I understand it, you only have to check their kw competition tool to find out, if page one is full of PA<10 pages but all DA90-99 it auto indicates it as very competitive, while in fact those sites only show cause there is zero competition, in other words they give way too much value to DA and I suppose that reflects in their MozRank and MozTrust as well.

Oh well...

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

On regular base I get emails from people that have a hard time finding even a handful of solid domains at reasonable prices. It's funny that none of the large companies like Ahrefs, Majestic or OSE haven't found a way to determine the strength of a domain in a solid way. Now and again I still see domains with hardly any links at all (worthy or not) with a TF of 30, or a MozRank of 4.
.

Make sure you are checking Majestic's historical index as well. For some reason (I guess crawling issues) the fresh index drops a lot of still live links. Usually a TF of 30 should have at least some links although I tend to believe trustflow goes too much of domain (index folder)

I use moz more as a floor except with link count it does help to really cut down on wasting time with spammed links. They both suck at picking up nofollow which is odd since Majestic actually gives you that data.

We talked past each other on Domcop. The thing that I like about it is the sampling of link data built right in. You can find almost everything else at other services. No metric out there even pagerank accounts for chinese spam domains. Chinese characters can't be that hard to pick up so somebody should have a system that checks language but for now with domcop i can click a direct link and instantly without waiting see the top links and spot chinese links (Its amazing the amount of domains that have been junked up by asian (countries not race) based spam)

thats only when I am doing slow paced checking though. I automate RDZZ but meh yeah still it can;t be entirely automated and its tedious. I don't and will never rent links but I do SEo with my own networks. I don't know how you deal with the lower end market. Anytime I have dropped under $400 a month I have regretted the clients I got except for a few I have now. My $1000+ a month clients are low maintenance. cheaper seems to mean expect more and faster. Businessmen are in it for thelong term and the funds don;t have them panicked.

Lot of them want white hat though so also one of the reasons why I want t go a lot more there.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Make sure you are checking Majestic's historical index as well. For some reason (I guess crawling issues) the fresh index drops a lot of still live links. Usually a TF of 30 should have at least some links although I tend to believe trustflow goes too much of domain (index folder)

I use moz more as a floor except with link count it does help to really cut down on wasting time with spammed links. They both suck at picking up nofollow which is odd since Majestic actually gives you that data.

We talked past each other on Domcop. The thing that I like about it is the sampling of link data built right in. You can find almost everything else at other services. No metric out there even pagerank accounts for chinese spam domains. Chinese characters can't be that hard to pick up so somebody should have a system that checks language but for now with domcop i can click a direct link and instantly without waiting see the top links and spot chinese links (Its amazing the amount of domains that have been junked up by asian (countries not race) based spam)

thats only when I am doing slow paced checking though. I automate RDZZ but meh yeah still it can;t be entirely automated and its tedious. I don't and will never rent links but I do SEo with my own networks. I don't know how you deal with the lower end market. Anytime I have dropped under $400 a month I have regretted the clients I got except for a few I have now. My $1000+ a month clients are low maintenance. cheaper seems to mean expect more and faster. Businessmen are in it for thelong term and the funds don;t have them panicked.

Lot of them want white hat though so also one of the reasons why I want t go a lot more there.

Cause of my broker I'm free of all the prefiltering so what I do is enter each domain from his list manually into Ahrefs to observe the Ahrefs URL rank of the backlinks quickly and at the overview page I can instantly see the anchor profile, whether it's over optimized, foreign like Chinese/Russian/Japanese, and/or spammed with pharmacy or porn links (I see this last thing way more often than before btw).

Before I head over to Ahrefsrank I run them through Netpeak Checker and remove all with a MozRank / MozTrust < 3 and DA<20. This way it doens't cost me too much time.

As for low budget clients, when I had around 150 monthly subscriptions there were always some difficult ones in between and the average subscription time was 3 months. Though the last 1-1.5 years those have mostly been weeded out as I have few new clients while the long time subscribers are still subscribed so right now it's despite the low budget very low maintenance as the core 90% is subscribed for over a year already.

What I noticed is that there's a general rule that about 1 out of 5-7 forum clients turns into a long time subscriber (perhaps life time customer) and that are the ones that are left now and they are real easy to deal with. Most or perhaps half of them tanked at least once during their subscription but they always recovered and some of them even replaced their money site with a new one that they resubscribed to my service after I announced some large changes of how we're doing things.

I even have one client that replaces all his money sites every 6 months or so, he buys links at many places, not only from me, so when they tank he replaces them and resubscribes them, kind of a somewhat long term churn & burn. Obviously he makes plenty of money in the process as he's been doing this for 2 years already.

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anusantosh

10 years ago

Three things I look into.....

a)Is my site or money site worth staying at Position 1 for the target keyword? - Mostly here CONTENT plays the major role.

b)I will be ONLY after the LESS competitive keyword/s to rank my site

c)Once I made a site worth like that, then I will plan for ranking with PBN - whatever whomever say it is scam or all dark hats, is all bullshit.

Till now for less competitive keyword I only need 4-5 PBN and 4-5 Web 2.0s to rank to position 1. I will have a service to submit to directories (some 20+ evry month for first 3 months).

Whether PBN or Web 2.0 your job is to ENSURE they are all in your money site NICHE. Very fast in a span of 2 months you will be on first page. I found domains for my PBN in my niche at the price of 100 to 150USD.

As for as detail course on PBN - go here - Building a Private Blog Network - The Right Way

Simply do not waste time in discussing things over here. If you are serious go through the details there and start working on it.

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anusantosh

10 years ago

In continuation.....

As an example to throw out all stories on people saying.....

a)Your site requires privacy policy, contact, about me or author etc etc
b)CONTENT CONTENT and CONTENT is king!
c)Your site or content need social signals
d)You need to build links month after month with outsourcing, software that this this that and all

These above 4 points I hear always to rank a site BUT see the example below....

Miracle Phytoceramides Review SUPPLIES LIMITED!!! Now go after each of the points above....

a) Nothing no policy and no author
b)Has 5 pages indexed on Google
c)Has some 6 FB likes
d)Links? Study on your own.

This less than 1 year old site ranks on Page 1 for the keyword Miracle Phytoceramides.

So, any more theories?

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by anusantosh

In continuation.....

As an example to throw out all stories on people saying.....

a)Your site requires privacy policy, contact, about me or author etc etc
b)CONTENT CONTENT and CONTENT is king!
c)Your site or content need social signals
d)You need to build links month after month with outsourcing, software that this this that and all

These above 4 points I hear always to rank a site BUT see the example below....

Miracle Phytoceramides Review SUPPLIES LIMITED!!! Now go after each of the points above....

a) Nothing no policy and no author
b)Has 5 pages indexed on Google
c)Has some 6 FB likes
d)Links? Study on your own.

This less than 1 year old site ranks on Page 1 for the keyword Miracle Phytoceramides.

So, any more theories?

Lol dude come on: "Miracle Phytoceramides", really???

Yes I know you mentioned low competition, but this is not low competition, this is as good as zero competition.

4 PA1 and 4 PA<29 on page one in Google.

It's not that I disagree with all of your points, though sites do seem to need a certain amount of content for certain keywords to make the rankings more stable, but come on, at least show a low or medium competitive keyword and not some crap like this that no one actively tries to rank for.

Amazing search volume though, I'll give you that, but the organic competition is inexistent and by looking at the Amazon reviews I don't think it will sell very well, though still a good keyword to drive traffic to Amazon, so nice found I guess.

Ps: search volume is down to 1k in Nov 2014, had a peak but is quickly diminishing.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by jinx1221

For the whole forum self-promo thing, I honestly think Mike was half teasing and having a laugh, till everybody else (especially Kev) started making it into a serious 'thing', then shit gets real from there. Seems the only one lightening up around here IS Mike lol! Go figure

Shucks JInx why don't you get in on the action???.

Start a forum for SEO plasma. Then you can say its modded better than here an d get into the details.

As you know I thought and think the software had promise. Sorry we weren't able to work out the details to work together (clickbank better be treating you good since you sent me packing for them) but it should be a great tool for managing a PBN.

more details about it n eeded in this thread

anyone else got a product with a forum they would like to promote in this thread???

Shucks and just when my sig link went dark. Always bad timing with me ROFL.

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jinx1221

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Shucks JInx why don't you get in on the action???.

Start a forum for SEO plasma. Then you can say its modded better than here an d get into the details.

As you know I thought and think the software had promise. Sorry we weren't able to work out the details to work together (clickbank better be treating you good since you sent me packing for them) but it should be a great tool for managing a PBN.

I'd respond to this but then I might have to hold myself in contempt

p.s. thanks sincerely! Maybe we'll work it out someday

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MikeFriedman 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Pure nonsense Mike. Try something else . You were giving a testimonial to your own product/forum as compared to this one

No Mike. I told you exactly what I was thinking.

It was others talking about my product/forum. I was pointing out the difference between a public forum and private forum with a joke. It was a joke between friends, which I am pretty sure is still allowed around here. If a mod feels I was being self-promotional though, by all means they can remove my comment. I have no issue with that.

You really have some nerve around here constantly telling people what they are thinking and what they meant. You have been doing that to a lot of people lately throughout the forum. How the hell would you know what others are thinking? You don't, so please do not put words in my mouth.

And you can stop with all your anti-mod BS. Ask the mods how anti-mod I have been. I have remained in contact with some of them periodically over the last few months. In fact, about 10 days ago one of them asked me for help in writing new rules for this section of the forum because he wants to clean it up more. If I was anywhere near as anti-mod (or anti Freelancer for that matter) as you keep telling people, then why would a mod come to me for something fairly important like that.

I understand you have a compulsion to argue with people, so I usually just let it slide. However, I would appreciate it if you would stop making stuff up.
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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I was the one that actually suggested to you that you start a forum

And that is not true at all. You did not put the idea into my head. I had been thinking about it for several years. I had been disappointed with the level of discussions in this forum for quite some time and had been considering it. I was always able to find somewhere else though, so I never did it. For example, Backlinksforum was great. Then that went away. GOY's forum was fantastic. Then that went away.

We discussed the logistics of running a forum as well as a forum attached to a product versus a standalone forum, but you did not give me the idea to start a forum.

Ultimately, I decided on the forum for a three reasons. First, it was easier than answering the same question more than once over email or a support desk. If someone had a question, I figured they would post it there to the benefit of all the members. Second, as the community grows, some of the simple questions will be answered by other, seasoned members, so I will not even have to. And third, I love the discussion and sharing of ideas revolving around SEO.

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jinx1221 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

GOY's forum was fantastic. Then that went away.

Yeah man, what's up with that?
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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Ultimately, I decided on the forum for a three reasons. First, it was easier than answering the same question more than once over email or a support desk. If someone had a question, I figured they would post it there to the benefit of all the members. Second, as the community grows, some of the simple questions will be answered by other, seasoned members, so I will not even have to. And third, I love the discussion and sharing of ideas revolving around SEO.

DUDE!! who cares ??? Seriously you are doing EXACTLY what you didn't like NIk0 doing all these years. You are still talking about your forum in this thread and its not the topic of discussion

I'm with you using a forum. I used to too. But I never had along discussion about it here and Goy never had a long discussion about his here either. THATS ALL I AM SAYING.

I am not against your forum . I have not trashed it nor your products. I'm just not understanding why you think its alright for you and others to talk it up in this thread when no one else has had that privilege and the thread has nothing to do with forums

or what will happen as it grows
or what nonsense it doesn't have thats here
or what decisions you made about it
or what questions will be answered as time goes along

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Woah...

It s like that eh? Two ex mods making jokes/taking shots at the new mods and promoting their forum right bang in the middle of a warrior forum thread. lol

Anyway If I might...we now return to regular programming in progress.......

The only part that was a joke was spelling SEO. The rest was correct.

Keep in mind I've personally had one of the new mods contacting me a while back asking how they could mod the forum better, I told him to actually view the sub-forums instead of sitting around waiting for other forum members to report problems. His reply was that's not happening because admin doesn't want them patrolling dedicated sub-forums looking for problem threads.

That conversation went on for a few PMs until I finally stopped responding because giving advice was a waste of my time when he kept making excuses.

I first commented about the other forum because OP asked a question that was related considering it's included in the PBN product:

[source]

Originally Posted by kmagnet

Makes good sense, do you know of any course that talks about PBN and shows the how to's as well? Ta!

Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire

This ones quite good too,

Private Network 2.0 Course

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Woah...

It s like that eh? Two ex mods making jokes/taking shots at the new mods and promoting their forum right bang in the middle of a warrior forum thread. lol

Anyway If I might...we now return to regular programming in progress.......

Sorry I really don't see your point?

The private forum membership comes with MikeF's PBN course. A forum like that is nothing out of the ordinary with any kind of product launch these days. Most producers use things like facebook, skype and forum groups to improve customer support, education, development and ultimately some quantifiable value for money from the course. It beats submitting a support ticket all day long.

You're trying to make an issue out of someone discussing an avenue of further education around the thread topic, and trying to call it self promotion? That's weird because that's exactly what a public forum is all about.

You would argue that black is white these days. Take a few weeks off or something, this place is getting to you.

Edit: I did have a good look around Mike forum last night, and all I could find was good solid info from industry professionals. Not a single "how to improve my Alexa rankings" thread in sight.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Guys spin it the way you like. Its a low class move

Its taking shots at the present mods of this forum while actively pointing to another forum you want people to go to. it is CLEARLY logically undeniably promotional

and Kevin do yourself a favor. save your fingers typing directions. You don't get to tell anyone where they should go or what they can post.Or perhaps that was one of your jokes?

The private forum membership comes with MikeF's PBN course. A forum like that is nothing out of the ordinary with any kind of product launch these days

Thats right thanks for that Kevin. So its part of a product and it is being promoted in this thread for free WHILE taking shots at how this board is modded..

Logic anyone?

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Guys spin it the way you like. Its a low class move

Its taking shots at the present mods of this forum while actively pointing to another forum you want people to go to. it is CLEARLY logically undeniably promotional

and Kevin do yourself a favor. save your fingers typing directions. You don't get to tell anyone where they should go or what they can post.Or perhaps that was one of your jokes?

Thats right thanks for that Kevin. So its part of a product and it is being promoted in this thread for free WHILE taking shots at how this board is modded..

Logic anyone?

Nit picking 24-7 with you, it never ends. Yeah take it as you like, a request, suggestion or a joke. But you, in your usual fanatical style throw arguments around like confetti. It's getting real boring. I'm not here to psycho analyse you and tell you how to behave around humans, that's entirely up to ones inner self to address. But I'm not the only regular here that has noticed your sudden turn on a lot of regular members.

It was me who dropped the link, and it was me who endorsed MikeFs course. It's beyond me how you think you can then accuse someone else for doing it. But that's your beef with Mike and others, not with me.

This sub-section will get really quite, really quick, if every last possible decent looking thread ends up with the usual MikeA V's somebody trollfest of accusations and insult.

Would you like to head over to Thailand with me to party with Nik0? He's promised to supply all visitors with a chastity belt and a ziplock onesie. To keep you safe.

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Kevin Maguire 10 years ago

Originally Posted by deezn

Please don't.

You'll turn it into warrior-lite and it'll be ruined.

jdang ...

You might be suprised, how much of an addition I would be.

Oh wait, I was thinking of someone entirely different.
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- MikeFriedman 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire
  
  You might be suprised, how much of an addition I would be.
  
  Oh wait, I was thinking of someone entirely different.
  
  You are already in there. You just never logged in.
  
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  Kevin Maguire 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MikeFriedman
  
  You are already in there. You just never logged in.
  
  Yeah I just noticed.
  
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Sangfroid

10 years ago

Originally Posted by SEWARRIOR

PBN, is not SPAM, as you post the content on your own website/blogs but sure its 100% search engine manipulation and if you leave your traces, your site will be penalized and PBN will be generally delisted from SERP

Yes, Google does not like it. I don't like Google changing
their algorithms all the time.. Is that ethical?

Anyhow, what is not Search Engine manipulation? You
may not like it or Google may not like it, but PBN's work.

Just because Google likes a certain SEO strategy does not
mean that it lacks manipulative qualities.

Be Well
Don

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MikeFriedman 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Sangfroid

Yes, Google does not like it. I don't like Google changing
their algorithms all the time.. Is that ethical?

Of course it is ethical. It is their product. They can change it however they want.
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dougp

10 years ago

It's spam, and a very dumb for small businesses to do imho. Why spend money, time, and lots of effort into a strategy like this that MAY work but more than likely get discovered and nuke? Perhaps if you were million dollar online company that has the budget and multiple traffic sources. However, for a small business I would definitely recommend to STUDY white-hat seo marketing and invest that money and time that you would have been put into a PNB into a content marketing and promotion strategy.

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edpudol1973

10 years ago

Originally Posted by dougp

It's spam, and a very dumb for small businesses to do imho. Why spend money, time, and lots of effort into a strategy like this that MAY work but more than likely get discovered and nuke? Perhaps if you were million dollar online company that has the budget and multiple traffic sources. However, for a small business I would definitely recommend to STUDY white-hat seo marketing and invest that money and time that you would have been put into a PNB into a content marketing and promotion strategy.

If creating PBN is spam, will you share at least one link building that you are using that is not spam?

According to google

Natural links to your site develop as part of the dynamic nature of the web when other sites find your content valuable and think it would be helpful for their visitors.

If you religiously following this rule of google then good luck.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

John,

I never said anything about building crappy PBN sites. I don't. I build sites that could stand on their own and be profitable on their own if I wanted them to. They just happen to link to sites I want them to.

I would never advocate for using your typical PBN that is out there. They stick out like a sore thumb. Any network like that it is not a matter of will it get caught. It is just a matter of when will it get caught.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

John,

I never said anything about building crappy PBN sites. I don't. I build sites that could stand on their own and be profitable on their own if I wanted them to. They just happen to link to sites I want them to.

I would never advocate for using your typical PBN that is out there. They stick out like a sore thumb. Any network like that it is not a matter of will it get caught. It is just a matter of when will it get caught.

Understood.

But you're probably an exception.

It goes without saying that the majority of it that's out there is absolute rubbish and a complete waste of time.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Understood.

But you're probably an exception.

It goes without saying that the majority of it that's out there is absolute rubbish and a complete waste of time.

Rubbish, yes.

A waste of time? I don't know. They obviously work until they get caught or else Google wouldn't be so aggressively going after them. If I setup a shitty PBN for $2,000, and I make $5,000 off of it before it gets caught, was that a waste of time? I would say not.

That is not the business model I use, but I understand why people do it.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Rubbish, yes.

A waste of time? I don't know. They obviously work until they get caught or else Google wouldn't be so aggressively going after them. If I setup a shitty PBN for $2,000, and I make $5,000 off of it before it gets caught, was that a waste of time? I would say not.

That is not the business model I use, but I understand why people do it.

I get that Mike.

And this is the problem that Google is currently faced with. Any time they're going after something as "aggressively" as they are, is time to seriously rethink your strategy.

Then again, you've got HUGE businesses out there that operate in hyper competitive markets such as finance, credit, payday loans, viagra and so forth that couldn't care less about Google, or their silly rules.

They'll burn millions of dollars worth of domains before they reposition themselves to take advantage of the next "loop hole".

I think within the next 2 years, you'll see links losing their value (if not sooner) and more emphasis placed upon metrics that are near impossible to artificially emulate. (UX etc)

Anyway, that's perhaps something for a different discussion.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

John,

I never said anything about building crappy PBN sites. I don't. I build sites that could stand on their own and be profitable on their own if I wanted them to. They just happen to link to sites I want them to.

I would never advocate for using your typical PBN that is out there. They stick out like a sore thumb. Any network like that it is not a matter of will it get caught. It is just a matter of when will it get caught.

What about the points on his list about social media accounts, historical backlink profiles that don't match the theme of the site, over average link losses just to name a few.

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jinx1221

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Marx Vergel Melencio

I'm totally blind, and you may be surprised what I along with my blind associates in my 9-year old Certified Microsoft Partner global ICT consulting company have been doing since 2003 on the Internet!

Sorry man, my appologies.. horribly bad joke that blew up in my face

Originally Posted by John Romaine

I think within the next 2 years, you'll see links losing their value (if not sooner) and more emphasis placed upon metrics that are near impossible to artificially emulate. (UX etc)

The problem with this thought is that links are really the only reliable metric in the first place. That's why they fight so hard and spend so much money to sort out which links are artificial and ones that are legitimate.

Things like UX, that are near impossible to artificially emulate, are also near impossible to program into an algorithm. Computer chess comes to mind.. you can program it to perform the next logical move, even a sequence of probable moves to win a game, but 'human' things can't be programmed as easily, if at all. That's why people like Bobby Fisher can beat a computer chess game. It's the 'human' factor that can't be written neatly into an algorithm.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Originally Posted by jinx1221

The problem with this thought is that links are really the only reliable metric in the first place. That's why they fight so hard and spend so much money to sort out which links are artificial and ones that are legitimate.

Things like UX, that are near impossible to artificially emulate, are also near impossible to program into an algorithm. Computer chess comes to mind.. you can program it to perform the next logical move, even a sequence of probable moves to win the game, but 'human' things can't be programmed as easily, if at all. That's why people like Bobby Fisher can beat a computer chess game. It's the 'human' factor that can't be written neatly into an algorithm.

I know what you're saying, but I'm almost certain that 50 years ago (or perhaps not even that far back), many would've said the same about an algorithm being able to index, sort and quickly retrieve huge amounts of information (as it does today)

One thing is for certain, is that Google have, and probably still are, performing tests, to run algorithms that don't use the existing (traditional) "backlink" model. Matt Cutts mentioned it briefly in one of his videos. I think John Mueller spoke about it too.

I have no idea what metrics they used instead, but it would certainly make for a fascinating discussion.

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WareTime

10 years ago

Let me break it down.

PBN's are a way for a tech savvy individual to fleece the sheep who believe. It's just a fancier shovel from the shovel salesmen for the person off to the mine in the heat of the internet gold rush.

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

I think they are far more likely to continue to refine how they look at and value links versus dropping them from the algorithm. Co-citation, co-occurence, relevancy, linguistic semantics, etc., will all play a bigger and bigger role in how they evaluate links.

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Obviously the PBN naysayers are arguing their point based on things that have happened in the past like BMR but those are heavily promoted public links (they stand out in the crowd). The thing about private networks which is the opposite of BMR style links is no two networks will ever be the same & they're never advertised.

Saying links are going away is silly & even If links did go away (they're not) the next best thing would be hammering the new ranking factor.

Google isn't magical, for every single Google engineer working on their algo. there's 1,000s of SEOs reverse engineering to see what works & how far it can be pushed to rank pages.

Luckily Google hasn't changed much over the years, it's still all about text & links. Fads come & go but the basics never change.

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John Romaine

10 years ago

Mike Anthony I'm not arguing with you dude. I have a lot of respect for you and what you do. Infact, if you check your records, I joined your PBN membership some time ago.

I haven't read all of the responses here, because I'm quite busy, but my point is this....you can rank sites without the hassles of having to build out a PBN and worry about getting slammed.

That's all I'm saying.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

I haven't read all of the responses here, because I'm quite busy, but my point is this....you can rank sites without the hassles of having to build out a PBN and worry about getting slammed.

That's all I'm saying.

We all know that but:

- for me it would be insane time consuming and thus ineffective, cause as you might've read, it's not time consuming at all for me to setup a PBN

- it would be close to impossible in many cases due to budget limitations

- you need awesome content that people want to link to, very hard if not impossible to accomplish for small businesses in many niches, broken link building is very limited and citations don't provide much of a boost

- it's a bit of a gamble, you never know who will link to you or how many links you will earn from an outreach campaign, I spoke many SEO's that tried, most failed, got way too few responses back from the people they contacted, let alone links that drive rankings

PBN's are easy, predictable and with the on rolling Penguin update the risk is well there's not really a risk cause as soon as the links are removed the penalty will be lifted. I had tons of clients tank and they all recovered the month after (well not all as I'm not in control of every other link they might build their selves or buy somewhere) but the ones that solely received links from me did recover. Yes I used the old public blog network setup prior to Penguin 3.0 in October last year.

Mike has some good points as well, give me a bag of money and I can get you links at Forbes, Huffingtonpost, and many more of such sites as well. Is that whitehat? No it's just a company I know that provides these links as well as another individual that seems to be an author at these sites. Just another way of buying links, and hell expensive ones as both quoted me $1k+ per link for those. I don't even have to take care of the content, they'll find an angle and write it. Ultimate way of buying links.

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yukon

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

...I can get you links at Forbes, Huffingtonpost, and many more of such sites as well. Is that whitehat? No it's just a company I know that provides these links as well as another individual that seems to be an author at these sites. Just another way of buying links, and hell expensive ones as both quoted me $1k+ per link for those. I don't even have to take care of the content, they'll find an angle and write it. Ultimate way of buying links.

That would be a good deal If the same links generated targeted direct traffic that paid for the links but it would have to generate income fast considering those types of news sites bury their pages fast, then traffic slows to a trickle. I'm guessing you mean in content links that will stick for years.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

That would be a good deal If the same links generated targeted direct traffic that paid for the links but it would have to generate income fast considering those types of news sites bury their pages fast, then traffic slows to a trickle. I'm guessing you mean in content links that will stick for years.

Yeah they write an article and get it published there, seems most of the authors have their own section but I guess they all know and help each other out.

I sure hope those links will stick for years

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

Yeah they write an article and get it published there, seems most of the authors have their own section but I guess they all know and help each other out.

I sure hope those links will stick for years

Have you got room in your house for me, if I drop over for a cough>cough working holiday?

The weather here is making me depressed.

.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire

Have you got room in your house for me, if I drop over for a cough>cough working holiday?

The weather here is making me depressed.

.

Oh sucks to be you

, here it's 26-28C but feels a bit chilly at night, I suppose it drops till 25C or something

Plenty of space available here!

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Kevin Maguire

10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

Oh sucks to be you

, here it's 26-28C but feels a bit chilly at night, I suppose it drops till 25C or something

Plenty of space available here!

I got 4 days in Amsterdam in November. It rained buckets the whole time I was there, except the last morning as I'm running to catch the plane.

They re-opened the gate for me. LOLZ

I need some damn sunshine soon.

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nik0

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire

I got 4 days in Amsterdam in November. It rained buckets the whole time I was there, except the last morning as I'm running to catch the plane.

They re-opened the gate for me. LOLZ

I need some damn sunshine soon.

Yeah Holland sucks, especially in November, probably the most rainy month of the year.

Here we also had the raining season though, but it was quite a dry one here, opposed to the south where it almost rained non stop.

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John Romaine 10 years ago

Originally Posted by nik0

- it would be close to impossible in many cases due to budget limitations

We're obviously serving much different clientele
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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by John Romaine

Mike Anthony I'm not arguing with you dude. I have a lot of respect for you and what you do. In fact, if you check your records, I joined your PBN membership some time ago.

I haven't read all of the responses here, because I'm quite busy, but my point is this....you can rank sites without the hassles of having to build out a PBN and worry about getting slammed.

That's all I'm saying.

Yo John...I am not arguing with you. I agree with you more than you think outside of those observations I made. One of my main goals for 2105 is to go white hat by the end of 2015.

I do think PBN s will be around for sometime but I think maybe this year or the year after it will become VERY expensive to build them and I mean VERY expensive. Google tends to be slow with things but they eventually get to where they can get to. They have never made any move to counteract the domain auction market and they can and in a number of different ways. None of them will affect already operational domains but it will be enough to severely cripple the present model.I am taking the first part of this year and telling people to do what they can now.

PBNs will survive though by the process of contacting webmasters before the domains get to auctions/drop but then the whole process gets more time consuming and expensive. The cheap garbage setups like what you are referring to will vanish and long term PBNs will look and actually be their own sites.

However at that point the whole thing ill just be tedious and for my own reasons I want to be doing white hat totally in 2016. At that point it won't make sense marketing anything related to SEO here though....lol

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ventureprofits

10 years ago

Buy good PBN's and make them look real with REAL quality content. Then it will work. The reason a lot of people are whining is because they simply put a bunch of crap on their site with their anchor text and then wonder why their site got de-indexed.

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MPeters39

10 years ago

It would entirely depend upon the nature of your PBN. It could well be spam but so long as it helps your purposes, why wonder?

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paulch65

10 years ago

Spam is a strong word and spamming a database driven set of results isn't as harsh as spamming emails or blog comments.

And just don't let PNBs be your saviour. Remember in the California gold rush the ones making all the cash we're the guys selling the spades to dig up the gold. A lot of guys selling PNBs and courses etc if there was that much to be made in it they'd be out making the cash themselves, not selling knowledge to you.

I'm not saying it won't work but don't let it be your only chip.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

You don't get it, new mods making contact with old mods asking for help.

Figure it out or ignore it.

Yeah Yuke and they specifically requested that in return for your help you would announce their need for help on the open forum so you could promote another forum. Right?

Figure out the issue yet????

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Mike spin all you want. I didn't tell you what you thought. I told you what you wrote

Nah, I hear they keep that place well moderated.

You can't change English to spin your way out of things. "That place " is very specific and singular and applies to a place your place and what people in here were promoting and yes you were saying its better modded because the statement was whether it would become like WF in responding to this

Originally Posted by deezn

Please don't.

You'll turn it into warrior-lite and it'll be ruined.

jdang ...

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Nah, I hear they keep that place well moderated.

ANY ONE CAN READ THAT AND SEE. Who are you trying to fool that "that place" refers to plural "all small forums" in English?? Its what you wrote with no mindreading by me. Heres the thing. I made no foul as even Jinx stated . I laughed and said so thats how it is? and then I said alrighty then and went back to the thread topic and responded to posts about PBNs but your pal promoters weren't happy with that so had to blow it up..

and with Mods? Seriously? you can read right? You do have the ability? I'm inventing "anti-mod BS". Whats this MIke?

At least with the Mike F. forum it's an SEO forum ran by an actual SEO, not some low paid moderator that can't even spell SEO let alone take the time to do their job moderating the live forums instead of only looking at the back end moderator forum waiting for other forum members to complain about threads (most forum members will never report a problem thread, spam, etc...).

Whats that Mike ? A compliment? A statement of support?? Mike Mind reading?

Don't bring your friends tired tactic of claiming what people write is me mind reading. It won't work. It s out of line and you are the one that has some nerve defending it by trying to lie that I mind read it. Now thats some "BS"

sheesh and they say that newbies post garbage. At least the newbies are honest and just looking for answers..

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Mike spin all you want. I didn't tell you what you thought. I told you what you wrote

You can't change English to spin your way out of things. "That place " is very specific and singular and applies to a place your place and what people in here were promoting and yes you were saying its better modded because the statement was whether it would become like WF in responding to this

There you go again assuming you know what everyone is thinking.

Mike, my comment was about the forum being private, which eliminates a lot of the nonsense that goes on here. Basically, the comment meant that moderation is not even needed.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

ANY ONE CAN READ THAT AND SEE. Who are you trying to fool that "that place" refers to plural all small forums in English?? Its what you wrote with no mindreading by me. Heres the thing. I made no foul as even Jinx stated . I laughed and said so thats how it is? and then I said alrighty then and went back to the thread topic and responded to posts about PBNs but your pal promoters weren't happy with that so had to blow it up..

and with Mods? Seriously? you can read right? You do have the ability? I'm inventing "anti-mod BS". Whats this MIke?

Whats that Mike ? A compliment? A statement of support?? Mike Mind reading?

Don't bring your friends tired tactic of claiming what people write is me mind reading. It won't work. It s out of line and you are the one that has some nerve defending it by trying to lie that I mind read it. Now thats some "BS"

sheesh and they say that newbies post garbage. At least the newbies are honest and just looking for answers..

So you are saying that I am anti-mod based on someone else's comment?

I didn't say any of that, so don't attach that to me. I'm not talking about what anyone else says. I have no control over what anyone else says. They are free to say what they want. I did not put them up to any of that, nor would I even do such a thing. I did not ask any of them to say anything, good or bad, about my product or this forum.

That being said, if someone wants to say something good (or bad) about another product. I'm pretty sure that is still allowed here, so I do not understand your issue with that. Please do not explain it though. I really could not possibly care less what your explanation is.

I'm not sure what you get out of starting lies about other people, but like I said, please stop with the anti-mod BS. I am not anti-mod, and have been quick to offer assistance when asked, with one exception. That exception I already mentioned. I declined to help write new rules for this sub-forum precisely because of this sort of junk. Politics are starting to take over too many discussions in this forum. I do not want to be sucked into that stuff.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

There you go again assuming you know what everyone is thinking.

Nope I specifically stated what you wrote

. Dude at least come up with something original than copying lies against me made up in the suggestion forums . You are having a serious problem with English. You keep talking about me thinking and I quoted your own words.

my comment was about the forum being private, which eliminates a lot of the nonsense that goes on here. Basically, the comment meant that moderation is not even needed

and where would this place be that is better since it doesn't have nonsense be mike? LOl........

(this is freaking HILARIOUS. he's still talking up his forum in comparison to this one and claiming he's not promoting)

So you are saying that I am anti-mod based on someone else's comment?

Nope first off I didn't mention mods to you in that post I mentioned trashing the forums and promoting your own which you just basically just did AGAIN by saying your forum doesn't have the nonsense that goes on here. Capish? understand now how thats YOUR words so you claim i its someone else words just bit the dust.

I am not against your forums . I suggested (whether it was in your head before or not is immaterial) that you could start one.

That being said, if someone wants to say something good (or bad) about another product. I'm pretty sure that is still allowed here, so I do not understand your issue with that. Please do not explain it though.

Raise an issue I'll respond. You are not a mod to give directions. its very simple THIS THREAD WAS HIJACKED TO PROMOTE YOUR FORUM. it is not about forums Its about PBNs.

You are okay with it for obvious reasons. IF Nik0 came in here and had discussion with his customer about his services in the middle of this thread you would have blasted it and as a mod you would have most likely deleted stuff. you are being incredibly hypocritical but i am done with this back and forth with you.

and I never said I knew what thought you had in your head . I said I suggested it to you and if you want to lie about that its not even worth going into cause guess what

Thats also not the topic of this thread. Capish?

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MikeFriedman

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Nope I specifically stated what you wrote

.

And I specifically told you that you misinterpreted what I wrote. I explained to you what I meant by it. You do not get to decide what I meant. I wrote it. Not you. You misunderstood it. Not a big deal. I accept your apology.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

You are okay with it for obvious reasons. IF Nik0 came in here and had discussion with his customer about his services in the middle of this thread you would have blasted it and as a mod you would have most likely deleted stuff. you are being incredibly hypocritical but i am done with this back and forth with you.

First of all, the only thing I ever did was enforce the rules as a moderator. That is all any of us were asked to do. I did not make policy. It was just enforcement.

Second, and nik0 could tell you this himself, I told him a few times that if someone brought up something about his product, his service, or just working with him in general, I had no problem with him answering their questions.

It was when nik0 would start threads about how he ranked some site or was trying to rank some site with his service that he would get into trouble. And he knew that. nik0 is not dumb. He just likes pushing the boundaries to see how far he can go. I have no doubt he would admit that as well.

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Mike Anthony

10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

And I specifically told you that you misinterpreted what I wrote. I explained to you what I meant by it. You do not get to decide what I meant. I wrote it. Not you. You misunderstood it. Not a big deal. I accept your apology.

Dude seriously go learn English and stop trying to blame me for not understanding. You miswrote? then fine. man up and say you miswrote

Look it up - "that place" can not refer to a plural. "Well moderated" is a reference to moderation no matter how much you say that it isn't. lol the word moderated is right there. Besides which You not only were comparing you just did it AGAIN when you said your forum doesn't have the nonsense that is here. That is a comparison and you ARE putting down here as compared to your forum

Your mind reading charge is totally bogus and its obvious to any intelligent person. Its downright comical when you think about it . Its me mind reading to say you were comparing the two and putting this forum down to claim better for your own forum but while claiming I made it up - bam you just did it again saying the nonsense that happens here doesn't on your forum.

Such silliness and its soo obvious Therefore carry on . I am done on the subject.

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jinx1221

10 years ago

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Mike Anthony 10 years ago

Originally Posted by jinx1221

I think the problem is that, by people talking up Mike's forum in comparison to how WF is run,

Didn't you just read? Nobody did that it was all Mike Anthony's mind reading. whens somebody said don't turn it into Warrior Lite "it" and "that place" was referring to all small forums.......... Mike might not have asked for it but he sure did add to it and this thread is about PBNs, not other forums and linkspam not the mods not knowing how to spell SEO.

NIk0 might be happy though. Now he knows that complaints about hijacking threads to promote services (or even other forums) was to use Mike's word just BS.

Carry on. I changed my mind about the newbs . I actually prefer them so I'll concentrate on meaningful conversations with them and people like you
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sarahjeff4u

10 years ago

I don't know much about PBN but today most of the people on internet want to have there private PBN. I think it is good to have it in some cases.

Does this effects SEO of a website?

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