Why Organic SEO Beats PPC

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I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

1. The leads generated by SEO are 'hotter'.

A lot of people know that PPC is paid advertising.

Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

2. SEO has extremely low costs.

You might want to outsource some stuff or hire an SEO service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free. It would be time consuming but worth it.

Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to even $50 per click, that's insane.

3. Authority Value.

A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

Conclusion


The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

What would someone believe when they see your site there?

"Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".


The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

What are your thoughts?
#beats #organic #ppc #seo
  • Profile picture of the author AmericanWoman888
    Hey Daniel,

    Awesome post. I'll bet the veteran Im'ers and the newbies will really appreciate it as well.

    I agree with what you have said here. It's funny, in a sad way, I wasted thousands of dollars on PPC despite doing careful keyword research and tight monitoring and testing. I have made far more with SEO. It seems to be difficult to do SEO - it's not...it is only time consuming. I'd rather take my time and 'do it right' than look at those sickening G Adwords tabs.

    Wow! What a fantastic ranking. Yes - I would definitely assume 'you must be somebody' if I saw your site next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine. I believe that would be 'social proof' at its finest.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Have a great day!

    AW888
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    • Profile picture of the author Learnanew
      Yep, sadly the only thing about SEO is that it takes time to implement sometimes and you need to have a SEO friendly site.

      Curious about the business consulting rank though, how many links you did you have to get in one days to rank next to them?

      EDIT: Holy crap, I just googled business consulting and you're site is still there, I thought it was a one day thing!
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    • Profile picture of the author Avidpoet
      Google only makes there living on the PPC side so I think that Google puts that fog out there scaring SEO Marketers into spending money on the PPC side. I dont think there algorythm is as scary as they like us to believe its just to many pages out there to keep a tight hold of unless you got Bigfoot sized footprints for them to follow.
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      • Profile picture of the author mikewright789
        Google only makes there experiencing on the PPC side so they believe that Google puts that fog out there frightening SEO Marketers into expenditure money on the PPC side.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vijay M
    Awesome Daniel. I have to tip my hat to you, after noticing your page 1 rankings in such short time and for such a "money" keyword.
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  • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
    Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post


    Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

    1. SEO traffic is far more targeted.

    Everyone knows that PPC is paid advertising.

    Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

    So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.
    That doesn't make it more targeted, it just gives you a potentially better click-through rate. I'd say that all things being equal, traffic for both is equally targeted.


    The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

    However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.
    You can rush into SEO without doing proper research previously and waste a lot of time (or money if you outsource) as well, so this disadvantage isn't specific to PPC.

    Anyway, I prefer SEO myself as the backbone of my business. If you understand PPC really well though you can build a bigger, more profitable business much faster though. Ideally, you should use both: use PPC to test markets, then run ppc ads until your site climbs the search engine rankings to number 1. If it's really profitable, you can try to dominate both the organic results and the ad results. This way you have a long term profitable business without missing out on the quicker, easier PPC profits.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Learnanew View Post

      Yep, sadly the only thing about SEO is that it takes time to implement sometimes and you need to have a SEO friendly site.

      Curious about the business consulting rank though, how many links you did you have to get in one days to rank next to them?

      EDIT: Holy crap, I just googled business consulting and you're site is still there, I thought it was a one day thing!
      I've been holding that ranking for 5 months already, it really isn't that hard if you have my unprecendented authority site model.

      I have similar or even better rankings within 3 other niches, for "impossible" 7 figure keywords just like that one as well.

      After tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours invested, my team and I have developed a 100% white-hat authority site model which allows me (or anyone) to rank for any keyword whatsoever, regardless of competition and within 1-3 months.

      Not to mention that with the Caffeine update coming, it's even better, I'm ranking #1 all across the board.

      Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post

      That doesn't make it more targeted, it just gives you a potentially better click-through rate. I'd say that all things being equal, traffic for both is equally targeted.
      SEO

      People believe you are being recommended by the almightly Google themselves. People don't know it's advertising/publicity.

      Why do you think word of mouth is the most effective form of advertising, because it's not perceived as publicity at all.

      PPC


      Everyone knows PPC is paid advertising, that people had to pay money to get up there, whereas with SEO they don't.

      For example, I never ever click on adsense ads, because I know people just paid for that spot. But I still do my searches on Google, eventhough I know they have probably been manipulated.

      And that's just me because I'm an expert on the subject. Consider the grand majority of people has no clue that organic rankings can be manipulated.

      How is it not more targeted?
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      • Profile picture of the author Darth Executor
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        I've been holding that ranking for 5 months already, it really isn't that hard if you have my unprecendented authority site model.

        I have similar or even better rankings within 3 other niches, for "impossible" 7 figure keywords just like that one as well.

        After tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours invested, my team and I have developed a 100% white-hat authority site model which allows me (or anyone) to rank for any keyword whatsoever, regardless of competition and within 1-3 months.

        Not to mention that with the Caffeine update coming, it's even better, I'm ranking #1 all across the board.



        SEO

        People believe you are being recommended by the almightly Google themselves. People don't know it's advertising/publicity.

        Why do you think word of mouth is the most effective form of advertising, because it's not perceived as publicity at all.

        PPC


        Everyone knows PPC is paid advertising, that people had to pay money to get up there, whereas with SEO they don't.

        For example, I never ever click on adsense ads, because I know people just paid for that spot. But I still do my searches on Google, eventhough I know they have probably been manipulated.

        And that's just me because I'm an expert on the subject. Consider the grand majority of people has no clue that organic rankings can be manipulated.

        How is it not more targeted?
        Because targeted traffic refers to traffic that's looking for what you're offering (IE: quality). You're getting your traffic from the same place the PPC people are getting theirs: people searching on google for the keyword you're targeting. It's the same traffic, only conversion rates might differ. I'm not sure how their knowing someone pays for ads reduces the traffic quality those ads get.
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        • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
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          After tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours invested, my team and I have developed a 100% white-hat authority site model which allows me (or anyone) to rank for any keyword whatsoever, regardless of competition and within 1-3 months.
          Interesting, considering you said seo was basically free, lol.
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          • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
            Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

            Interesting, considering you said seo was basically free, lol.
            Not really. Basically free to implement doesn't mean basically free to work out how to do it.
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            • Profile picture of the author TheBillionaire
              Originally Posted by Justin Jordan View Post

              Not really. Basically free to implement doesn't mean basically free to work out how to do it.

              Time is money , so really nothing is free.

              Having said that , one could easily build a wordpress/blogger/insert free blog here type of website, perform some SEO magic with an offer and make money with SEO that way.

              There's ways to do things with no budget and SEO, you just have to have the mindset to do it.
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              • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
                Originally Posted by TheBillionaire View Post

                Time is money , so really nothing is free.

                Having said that , one could easily build a wordpress/blogger/insert free blog here type of website, perform some SEO magic with an offer and make money with SEO that way.

                There's ways to do things with no budget and SEO, you just have to have the mindset to do it.
                When doing massive scaling with SEO, you need a lot of automation and outsource, and that equals to money (budget).

                I love SEO, and start learning SEO 3 years back, Daniel forum posts did helped me a lot!

                I still think PPC is not a bad way to generate huge income in the shortest time, but I think SEO can provide the same income but you only need to invest to rank it, the maintenance cost is relatively low, a lot lower!

                If you want to game in SEO, you need to build up authority sites, and many authority sites, so you can rank for any keyword on demand, and your overall traffic cost will be lower...

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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post

          Because targeted traffic refers to traffic that's looking for what you're offering (IE: quality). You're getting your traffic from the same place the PPC people are getting theirs: people searching on google for the keyword you're targeting. It's the same traffic, only conversion rates might differ. I'm not sure how their knowing someone pays for ads reduces the traffic quality those ads get.
          I guess you're right under that definition.

          What I mean is that the leads generated by SEO are hotter than those generated by PPC.

          The traffic itself converts better.

          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          Interesting, considering you said seo was basically free, lol.
          Well I went out of the way to develop it.

          It's essentially free if you know how to do it.

          But you have a point, I should rephrase and say the cost is extremely low rather than free.
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      • Profile picture of the author junkdna
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post


        PPC


        Everyone knows PPC is paid advertising, that people had to pay money to get up there, whereas with SEO they don't.
        According to Google's own studies, 60% of general public do not know that links on the side column are sponsored. Because it is still legal obligation to distinguish between organic and paid, Google is using the smallest and the palest font, with just one word "Ads". Efectively, they are avoiding as hell to educate general public, that side column is not organic.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by junkdna View Post

          According to Google's own studies, 60% of general public do not know that links on the side column are sponsored. Because it is still legal obligation to distinguish between organic and paid, Google is using the smallest and the palest font, with just one word "Ads". Efectively, they are avoiding as hell to educate general public, that side column is not organic.
          I'm sure Google would say that of course.

          It's just a matter of getting #1 organic ranking for a particular keyword phrase, then get #1 PPC ranking and hold it for a while.

          The statistics, which have no particular bias, will show you that PPC will never exceed 5% CTR (average is 3% actually) and that organic can exceed 50% CTR (average is 42%).

          Now, I do agree that PPC is much more versatile as thousands of keywords may be chosen. However, that also means that you will receive less traffic from the best converting keywords than you would from SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Daniel,

    I think PPC and organic serve different purposes.

    I use PPC to drive traffic to determine conversion rates.

    I do understand that some people use PPC to drive all their traffic, and actually there is no such thing as totally free traffic. (no matter if the costs are in time or money or both)

    If the traffic converts with PPC I know that it will do as well if not better with organic traffic.

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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Mark Riddle View Post

      Daniel,

      I think PPC and organic serve different purposes.

      I use PPC to drive traffic to determine conversion rates.

      I do understand that some people use PPC to drive all their traffic, and actually there is no such thing as totally free traffic. (no matter if the costs are in time or money or both)

      If the traffic converts with PPC I know that it will do as well if not better with organic traffic.

      Mark Riddle
      Actually Mark, that is the only case in which I use PPC myself.

      I do run 1,000 clicks PPC campaigns often to determine conversions, and also to verify which keywords convert the best before starting with the SEO.

      They do have to be run simultaneously as a split test though, otherwise you're messing up the conversion test.

      Usually, I test 3 variations to see which one converts the best.

      Either way, organic traffic for the same keywords is far superior in terms of conversion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    I don't think its a matter of witch one beats witch one.

    If you have a business you should use both...at least until you get a boatload of traffic without the help of PPC at all.

    It also depends on what type of business you want to run...there are people that just simply prefer PPC for its speed and they only want to build a squeeze page or something not a entire content site, so for them PPC would be better.

    If you want to build a " central hub" and stuff then you should use both...use PPC to drive the initial traffic and test stuff out and in the meantime get some organic listings too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Marian Berghes View Post

      I don't think its a matter of witch one beats witch one.

      If you have a business you should use both...at least until you get a boatload of traffic without the help of PPC at all.

      It also depends on what type of business you want to run...there are people that just simply prefer PPC for its speed and they only want to build a squeeze page or something not a entire content site, so for them PPC would be better.

      If you want to build a " central hub" and stuff then you should use both...use PPC to drive the initial traffic and test stuff out and in the meantime get some organic listings too.
      Well, if I thought like that I would be losing most of my profit.

      When you handle massive amounts of targeted traffic like I do (100,000 unique visitors per month or so), even the slightest change in conversion means hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.

      And I know for a fact SEO has a better conversion, I've split tested this about 100 times.

      Simple math.

      In one of my biggest split tests (10,000 uniques from both sources), my PPC traffic had about 2.3% conversion and my SEO had a 3.1% conversion.

      That's not much of a difference when you handle low amounts of targeted traffic.

      But using my average overall traffic (100,000 unique visitors per month):

      100,000 x 2.3% x $30 average price point = $69,000 USD per month

      100,000 x 3.1% x $30 average price point = $93,000 USD per month

      That's a $24,000 USD per month loss for thinking like that.

      And that's only in sales, add 100,000 clicks per month to your PPC loss. At $0.5 per click which is not rare, you just lost another $50,000 per month. Your PPC profit is down to $19,000 USD per month.

      Whereas my SEO campaign costs me $2,000 per month at most.

      So let's recap. Under this scenario.

      PPC = $288,000 USD per year.

      SEO = $1,092,000 USD per year.

      And in 100% of my split tests, this has been proven to be true. SEO has a better conversion.

      Are you telling me it doesn't matter?
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      • Profile picture of the author marketseeker
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        Well, if I thought like that I would be losing most of my profit.

        When you handle massive amounts of targeted traffic like I do (100,000 unique visitors per month or so), even the slightest change in conversion means hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.

        And I know for a fact SEO has a better conversion, I've split tested this about 100 times.

        Simple math.

        In one of my biggest split tests (10,000 uniques from both sources), my PPC traffic had about 2.3% conversion and my SEO had a 3.1% conversion.

        That's not much of a difference when you handle low amounts of targeted traffic.

        But using my average overall traffic (100,000 unique visitors per month):

        100,000 x 2.3% x $30 average price point = $69,000 USD per month

        100,000 x 3.1% x $30 average price point = $93,000 USD per month

        That's a $24,000 USD per month loss for thinking like that.

        And that's only in sales, add 100,000 clicks per month to your PPC loss. At $0.5 per click which is not rare, you just lost another $50,000 per month. Your PPC profit is down to $19,000 USD per month.

        Whereas my SEO campaign costs me $2,000 per month at most.

        So let's recap. Under this scenario.

        PPC = $288,000 USD per year.

        SEO = $1,092,000 USD per year.

        And in 100% of my split tests, this has been proven to be true. SEO has a better conversion.

        Are you telling me it doesn't matter?
        Both together should be about 1.3 right?

        This is only your testing and you may be doing it wrong. I've been doing seo and ppc since one cent clicks at 7 search and I'm here to tell you if you can't make money from ppc you don't know what you're doing. Both models have pluses and minuses. PPC is quick and great for market research and seo is good for taking advantage of that market research. Both have their place and both are very valuable. Some of my clients have made $100,000 per year using ppc spending $300 per month in adspend along with seo while others in their market are only making the average for the trade. $50k
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  • Profile picture of the author TheBillionaire
    I absolutely love SEO , I wish I would force myself to do it more often.

    I know as of today I've made about 20 times more with SEO , and my costs have been virtually nothing.

    One of my tests was a SEO site in April , I just ran the reports on that particular site, which I ran PPC traffic to as well , and over the course of time had about 50k SEO visitors and 20k PPC visitors, all at a cost of $9.95 for the SEO , and about $10k for the PPC , the return on the $9.95 investment was about $40,000 and the return on PPC was about $20,000.

    So , I know in my personal tests, SEO really leads the pack , however it's not "Easy" like PPC Is (That is , dumping a bunch of keywords into a tracker and seeing what ones work).

    Having said that........the best thing is doing SEO sites THEN running PPC trafic to them once you know what converts, That my friend is golden.
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  • Profile picture of the author ados67
    That's one mean example you've got there with "business consulting" - I wonder how hard you've had to work to rank that high.

    Great thread, very informative and while your statements here are rather simple, sometimes looking at things when they're clearly laid out in front of you helps things fall into place

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  • You do what works for you. PPC is instant. SEO can take a very long time. So the only thing that matters is what works for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucid
    Congratulations Daniel on your achievement.

    I don't want to restart a debate on SEO is better than PPC or vice versa. They both have their place, advantages and disadvantages. On your first point, SEO is far more targeted, not necessarily so as Darth said, although I somewhat disagree about "you get a potentially better click rate". I also agree with what Mark said.People see SEO as essentially free as you say but I never see it that way. It is never free as you should count your time and effort. As for authority, I believe that is true. Do you think however that people would have the same opinion if they realized that rankings are manipulated to get the top spots?

    You are correct that people rush into PPC. I see it every day. PPC is marketed as a fast, easy way to advertise, do it yourself. Problem is, most people don't know a thing about advertising and why they can't make it work, not to mention they have very strange ideas on the keywords they think people will use to find them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Lucid View Post

      Do you think however that people would have the same opinion if they realized that rankings are manipulated to get the top spots?
      Of course not, that's part of why it is superior.

      Read post #11 on this same thread, that should change your mind.

      Originally Posted by Marian Berghes View Post

      Thats in your case Daniel, but It might not be the same for everyone.

      In other markets PPC might totally out-convert SEO, in others SEO would be better.
      Sorry Marian, but I don't buy it. I have split tested this a hundred times in 4 completely different niches.

      Under the same scenario, same number of visitors, same keyword phrase, same times of day and all the variables being equal.

      In all 100 or so tests, SEO always beats PPC in terms of conversion and ROI.

      EVEN
      if the PPC conversions would be slightly higher (which is not the case in any of my tests), the ROI of SEO is still far superior due to the fact that the cost is way much lower.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
      SEO isn't free.

      If you think it is, then please do some seo for free for me :-)

      Seriously though, learning seo is important, but it can and does take time.

      One additional "bonus" with ppc is that you can more quickly find buying keyword phrases. Then you can use these in your seo efforts.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
        Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

        SEO isn't free.

        If you think it is, then please do some seo for free for me :-)

        Seriously though, learning seo is important, but it can and does take time.

        One additional "bonus" with ppc is that you can more quickly find buying keyword phrases. Then you can use these in your seo efforts.
        I never said it was free, I said it was essentially free.

        What I did say is that the cost is way much lower as seen in post #14. And I'm talking 6-7 figures lower.

        As for the rest, if you read post #9 you will see that we agree.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marian Berghes
    Thats in your case Daniel, but It might not be the same for everyone.

    In other markets PPC might totally out-convert SEO, in others SEO would be better.
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  • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
    Banned
    20 something year old IMers have so much to learn!

    The MOST successful business people do every type of Media that gives them a Return on their Investment.

    SEO, PPC, Banner ads, Yellow Pages, Val Pak, Telemarketing, Direct Mail, etc...

    Why would you leave any money on the table?

    IMers waste too much time focusing on SEO, and they leave tons of money on the table.

    A very successful business does it all as long as you can Scale your operations.

    Us old timers can teach you Grasshoppers a lot, this is how my college kids talk.

    I always read your threads Daniel and you are indeed good at SEO, but let me tell you this. YOU could never win in business against a Marketer like me who will use all avenues of Marketing.

    Change your Paradigm and BIG money will flow.

    Peace,

    Mac


    Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

    I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

    But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

    Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

    1. SEO traffic is far more targeted.

    Absolutely NOT true.

    Everyone knows that PPC is paid advertising.

    No they don't, you would be amazed how many people don't know this. Your problem is that you are an IMer and not everyone thinks this way. I talk to Offline customers EVERY day, when I show them Google search results they have NO clue about which ads are paid and organic searches. Go ahead and ask your parents, see if they know.

    Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

    So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

    2. SEO is essentially free.

    I hate when IMers say this, biggest Misnomer out there. This is CRACK talk. You must spend many hours to get high SEO rankings. Either you PAY someone or you do it yourself. And let me tell YOU, if YOU are making big money then YOUR time is worth a lot. More than $20 hour.

    You might want to outsource some stuff or hire a service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free.

    Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to above $1 a click, that's insane.

    So what? If I can get a ROI from PPC then by all means do it. I know clicks that cost $50, yes $50 per click.

    3. Authority Value.

    A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

    The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

    Conclusion


    The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

    Again, dead wrong. Let me teach all you Young Grasshoppers about MARKETING.

    I know a guy who purchased a business for 3 Million dollars because they had great revenue mostly based upon SEO. 5 Months after he bought the business they got GOOGLE slapped and his business dropped 90%.

    Long story short, by the time he finally got his rankings up again he had already fired 20 employees, and it destroyed his business.

    The NEW business owner came in and hired a GURU at PPC to help him reestablish business. They now do PPC and SEO. He knows exactly what to do with PPC should his rankings with SEO fall.

    50% of his sales are now PPC based and business is higher than it ever was with the old owner who ONLY relied upon SEO.

    Any Brick & Mortar business built upon SEO will fail, period.


    However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

    Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

    Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

    My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

    What would someone believe when they see your site there?

    "Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".


    The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

    It's true that Organic has more credibility but it doesn't mean PPC doesn't work.

    Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

    What are your thoughts?
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

      20 something year old IMers have so much to learn!

      The MOST successful business people do every type of Media that gives them a Return on their Investment.

      SEO, PPC, Banner ads, Yellow Pages, Val Pak, Telemarketing, Direct Mail, etc...

      Why would you leave any money on the table?

      IMers waste too much time focusing on SEO, and they leave tons of money on the table.

      A very successful business does it all as long as you can Scale your operations.

      Us old timers can teach you Grasshoppers a lot, this is how my college kids talk.

      I always read your threads Daniel and you are indeed good at SEO, but let me tell you this. YOU could never win in business against a Marketer like me who will use all avenues of Marketing.

      Change your Paradigm and BIG money will flow.

      Peace,

      Mac

      You're talking about ROI? You should really read through the entire thread before posting.

      Post #14 already counter arguments most of your points succesfully.

      The only valid point which I believe you have made is in diversifying your sources of traffic. Not relying on one single third party method. I do agree with that.

      And for the record, I broke 6 figures in profit seven months ago and I'm about to break 7 in sales.

      I started doing internet marketing exactly 1 year and 3 months ago.

      I'm sure you and your college kids did better at 22 with 1 year worth of experience.
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      • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
        Banned
        Daniel,

        You're being defensive, we're all hear to learn. I learn something every day at WF including from 20 year olds.

        I don't read entire threads all the time, sometimes there are 8 pages.

        I responded to your Initial post "Why Organic SEO beats PPC."

        I don't agree that SEO beats PPC. In some cases yes, in others no.

        I'm happy that you're making good money, I'm trying to help you make even more.

        I know a guy who spends $200,000 a month with PPC and makes $600,000 a month in return, like clockwork. $400,000 a month profit, not bad for PPC marketing. I'll take 5 Million pure profit a year living in CA on the beach.

        I've always respected what you've done, but there are many ways to make money on the Internet.

        I do expect my son do make very good money, I think he's crazier than me. My son knows more than 99% of business owners and most here. I keep telling him every trick I know. He keeps telling me "Dad, I know, I know, you've told me a thousand times.":rolleyes:

        Diversify your marketing Daniel and come back in 6 months and tell us how you made 300% more money, that would be great.

        Mac



        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        You're talking about ROI? You should really read through the entire thread before posting.

        Post #14 already counter arguments most of your points succesfully.

        The only valid point which I believe you have made is in diversifying your sources of traffic. Not relying on one single third party method. I do agree with that.

        And for the record, I broke 6 figures in profit seven months ago and I'm about to break 7 in sales.

        I started doing internet marketing exactly 1 year and 3 months ago.

        I'm sure you and your college kids did better at 22 with 1 year worth of experience.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

          Daniel,

          You're being defensive, we're all hear to learn. I learn something every day at WF including from 20 year olds.

          I don't read entire threads all the time, sometimes there are 8 pages.

          I responded to your Initial post "Why Organic SEO beats PPC."

          I don't agree that SEO beats PPC. In some cases yes, in others no.

          I'm happy that you're making good money, I'm trying to help you make even more.

          I know a guy who spends $200,000 a month with PPC and makes $600,000 a month in return, like clockwork. $400,000 a month profit, not bad for PPC marketing. I'll take 5 Million pure profit a year living in CA on the beach.

          I've always respected what you've done, but there are many ways to make money on the Internet.

          I do expect my son do make very good money, I think he's crazier than me. My son knows more than 99% of business owners and most here. I keep telling him every trick I know. He keeps telling me "Dad, I know, I know, you've told me a thousand times.":rolleyes:

          Diversify your marketing Daniel and come back in 6 months and tell us how you made 300% more money, that would be great.

          Mac
          Yes, perhaps I was being defensive, there was a condescending tone in your reply.

          Alright, maybe I should rephrase.

          My tests and tracking have shown better results from SEO than PPC. Not that the PPC doesn't work, it still brings a pretty good ROI.

          But ask yourself one question Mac, that guy you know, imagine the potential ROI he would be getting if he was ranking #1 for those same terms he is targeting with his PPC campaigns.

          The cost would be of at least $190,000 less (that's considering he spends $10,000 on SEO, which is a lot to spend on SEO).

          So he could potentially be making $590,000 profit, instead of $400k.

          On the other hand, I do agree 100% with your diversification statement, and I do to an extent diversify.

          Although most of my effort is indeed spent on SEO, and perhaps I should diversify even more.
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      • Profile picture of the author Julian Lockhart
        Daniel - Great Post.

        You have inspired to pick a big niche to take on.

        This is clearly where the long term big money is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Wilson
    Interestingly enough, a new study that was just released seems to show the exact opposite and that PPC converts better than SEO.

    The summary is here:
    Paid search is more likely than organic to bring in buyers, study shows | InternetRetailer.com - Daily News

    You can get the full report (which seems pretty thorough) here:
    http://www.engineready.com/pdf/Engin...2009Update.pdf

    This is actually the second year they have done the study and this year they compare last year's results to this year's. And conversion rates and value/visit for PPC have increased while for SEO they have stayed the same or declined.

    If anything, this shows that no blanket statement about which works best can be used across every industry...so do both!
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Wilson View Post

      Interestingly enough, a new study that was just released seems to show the exact opposite and that PPC converts better than SEO.

      The summary is here:
      Paid search is more likely than organic to bring in buyers, study shows | InternetRetailer.com - Daily News

      You can get the full report (which seems pretty thorough) here:
      http://www.engineready.com/pdf/Engin...2009Update.pdf

      This is actually the second year they have done the study and this year they compare last year's results to this year's. And conversion rates and value/visit for PPC have increased while for SEO they have stayed the same or declined.

      If anything, this shows that no blanket statement about which works best can be used across every industry...so do both!
      I have seen that case study before, it's pretty decent.

      But they base their results on just traffic coming in from the search engines, PPC, direct traffic and/or referral.

      They don't even take into account the most important variables, the keywords themeselves.

      My split tests are done by taking the traffic from my rankings within the top 5 positions for a specific keyword and placing them against the traffic coming from the exact match keyword in PPC.

      The variables used within that case study don't even make it a competent analysis.

      Measurements are based on overall random traffic from the 4 sources...

      But yes, you're right. Both methods should be used. I do use them both.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kappa
    I think that is wholly dependent on what you are selling and what your business model is.
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  • Profile picture of the author XFactor
    Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

    I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

    But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

    Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

    1. SEO traffic is far more targeted.

    Everyone knows that PPC is paid advertising.

    Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

    So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

    2. SEO is essentially free.

    You might want to outsource some stuff or hire a service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free.

    Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to above $1 a click, that's insane.

    3. Authority Value.

    A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

    The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

    Conclusion


    The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

    However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

    Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

    Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

    My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

    What would someone believe when they see your site there?

    "Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".


    The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

    Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

    What are your thoughts?
    I like your style, nothing to add but that I agree.

    - John
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Wilson
    That was kind of my point though. Every single one of us have different metrics, markets, products, landing pages, etc.

    So undoubtedly some will find far greater success with PPC vs SEO and vice versa.

    My skills are strongest with PPC and I outsource the SEO side of things. And the great benefit of years of PPC experience in various markets is you know the keywords that convert so the keywords to target for seo or a no brainer.

    Like I said it's all a balance
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  • Profile picture of the author Affiliit
    I wouldn't say either is better. You could make an argument that either method is better, they are just different.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    There is no content network for SEO. I do major sales every month in one niche just from the content network. I believe in SEO and have used it for years for myself and formerly for my clients, but thats something that SEO cant do. So, each has its benefits.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshua.E1
      Well I disagree with you that organic SEO beats PPC, to me the both of them are not fighting against each other, but complementing each other.

      Well, why do I say that?

      In the beginning of your new website, your SEO is not going to work, because it takes time to be properly rank.

      So PPC will come in to bring in the traffic, not just the traffic, but the actual keywords search terms people are using online to find your products or services. This is gold from search engines.

      Next you can use the keywords that has the most impress or conversions to use in on your web pages in your website.

      Continue to run the PPC even though the SEO is in the top 3, why?

      Because if you are able to impress the searchers online that you can rank both in PPC and SEO, it will give them the impression that you know your customers well.

      SEO does not beat PPC, or the vice versa, they complement each other.
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      • Profile picture of the author ricsale
        In my book SEO and PPC have their place and I use both to great effect for my clients.

        I don't see how/why SEO should provide better conversion rates over PPC because it's the same keywords.

        I think it may depend on the market/niche you are working in. I can imagine (but have no real proof) that in certain niches you would get a lower conversion rate from PPC. It was certainly the case that the PPC conversion rates were lower in the 'make money online' niche that I worked for a while than they were for other niches that I have worked in. But here I am comparing PPC with PPC for different niches.

        I tend, like others, to use PPC to search out the best converting keyword phrases then use SEO to promote the best.

        But I tend to leave the PPC running for even the best keywords. I have found that switching PPC off can actually hurt the bottom line. The fact is that the more times you appear on page one (PPC or Organic) the more traffic you get.

        So even if you are at #1 on the organic (SEO) results you can still get more traffic and sales by complementing this with PPC. OK yes you are paying for the clicks but in my experience it does not reduce the traffic from the organic (SEO) search engine listing. So the net result is a gain.

        Does anyone else see this?

        Rich
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        • Profile picture of the author robinjane
          I also suggest that you read Andrew Goodman's ebook. It's a fairly light read and has some very valuable information. It was one of the first resources that I used when I first started with SEO/Affiliate Programs. Also I suggest googling the term "pre sell" + affiliate, you will find alot of websites with very valuable information about that.




          Tom.....
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by Joshua.E1 View Post

          Well I disagree with you that organic SEO beats PPC, to me the both of them are not fighting against each other, but complementing each other.

          ...

          Because if you are able to impress the searchers online that you can rank both in PPC and SEO, it will give them the impression that you know your customers well.

          SEO does not beat PPC, or the vice versa, they complement each other.
          Originally Posted by ricsale View Post

          In my book SEO and PPC have their place and I use both to great effect for my clients.

          I don't see how/why SEO should provide better conversion rates over PPC because it's the same keywords.

          ...

          So even if you are at #1 on the organic (SEO) results you can still get more traffic and sales by complementing this with PPC. OK yes you are paying for the clicks but in my experience it does not reduce the traffic from the organic (SEO) search engine listing. So the net result is a gain.

          Does anyone else see this?

          Rich
          Those are both excellent points, and from that perspective they make sense.

          My point is coming from a sole option angle.

          If you had PPC ad space #1 for exact match keyword a, and you also had organic search engine ranking #1 for that same exact match keyword a.

          The organic SE ranking would outperform the ad in both CTR and conversion. At least that's what my split tests have shown.

          I never said PPC was useless, I use it myself as I said in post #9.

          But under the assumption that I had to pick one to start, because I could only afford one to begin with (as is the case for many Warriors), I would go with SEO for the reasons outlined throughout this entire thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
            Banned
            I don't think anyone here is going to change their mind.

            I use SEO, PPC, Banner Ads, Yellow Pages, Direct Mail, you name the media and I use it.

            Of course, if you have NO money you have no choice but to use SEO, duh! In terms of reliability I'll take PPC.

            So many people including WF members don't understand PPC. When you are really good at PPC campaigns and test constantly the world is your oyster. You can take any product and Dominate the competition in any market.

            You can have the #1 position and pay less than the guy who's #5.

            Google encourages a more reliable platform and rules with PPC, they constantly change the rules with SEO.

            With my "Offline" Brick & Mortar customers I can have a campaign up and running in minutes and their phones start ringing that day.

            I already know what your going to say Daniel so save the speech. Take off the blinders.

            Mac
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            • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
              Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

              I don't think anyone here is going to change their mind.

              I use SEO, PPC, Banner Ads, Yellow Pages, Direct Mail, you name the media and I use it.

              Of course, if you have NO money you have no choice but to use SEO, duh! In terms of reliability I'll take PPC.

              So many people including WF members don't understand PPC. When you are really good at PPC campaigns and test constantly the world is your oyster. You can take any product and Dominate the competition in any market.

              You can have the #1 position and pay less than the guy who's #5.

              Google encourages a more reliable platform and rules with PPC, they constantly change the rules with SEO.

              With my "Offline" Brick & Mortar customers I can have a campaign up and running in minutes and their phones start ringing that day.

              I already know what your going to say Daniel so save the speech. Take off the blinders.

              Mac
              I know how to get a QS of 8-10 in all my PPC campaigns, the ROI of SEO is still far superior.

              Under my model, ranking top 5 for a keyword that has millions of monthly searches organically costs me between $300-$500 USD.

              Let's take a 1,000,000 monthly searches keyword for example. In reality, you will most likely only get 40% of that traffic, even at position #1.

              But let's do a worst case scenario... Let's call position #5 in which I would only get 10%. Meaning 100,000 unique visitors per month.

              Those keywords, don't go below $1 CPC minimum price, even with a QS of 10.

              So you just spent $99,700-$99,500 USD per month more, for the exact same result. Actually a worse result, because the CTR and conversion will be lower.

              PPC more reliable? Perhaps. But Google has never slapped me.

              In fact, with the upcoming Google "Caffeine", I got Google Patted. All my most competitve rankings have risen to #1 in there.

              I do agree with you when it comes to diversification.

              However, I still stand by my statement, that if I could pick only one method (even if you had the money to afford any other), SEO would be the best option.

              It's superior in CTR, Authority, Costs, ROI and Conversions.

              What does PPC have? Speed and Reliability.

              Easy choice.

              Now, under the assumption that you can afford all methods. The best option would be to use PPC so that you can track down the best converting keywords, and also to test specific niche markets.

              Once you have the winners, PPC until you have top 5 organic SEO rankings, then drop PPC and SEO to the end.

              If you get slapped, resume PPC until you recuperate rankings. Simple enough.

              And one more thing Mac.

              Have you ever achieved Google One Box #1 rankings for your offline brick & mortar clients? Beats PPC any day.
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              • Profile picture of the author Julian Lockhart
                Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

                I know how to get a QS of 8-10 in all my PPC campaigns, the ROI of SEO is still far superior.

                Under my model, ranking top 5 for a keyword that has millions of monthly searches organically costs me between $300-$500 USD.

                Let's take a 1,000,000 monthly searches keyword for example. In reality, you will most likely only get 40% of that traffic, even at position #1.

                But let's do a worst case scenario... Let's call position #5 in which I would only get 10%. Meaning 100,000 unique visitors per month.

                Those keywords, don't go below $1 CPC minimum price, even with a QS of 10.

                So you just spent $99,700-$99,500 USD per month more, for the exact same result. Actually a worse result, because the CTR and conversion will be lower.

                PPC more reliable? Perhaps. But Google has never slapped me.

                In fact, with the upcoming Google "Caffeine", I got Google Patted. All my most competitve rankings have risen to #1 in there.

                I do agree with you when it comes to diversification.

                However, I still stand by my statement, that if I could pick only one method (even if you had the money to afford any other), SEO would be the best option.

                It's superior in CTR, Authority, Costs, ROI and Conversions.

                What does PPC have? Speed and Reliability.

                Easy choice.

                Now, under the assumption that you can afford all methods. The best option would be to use PPC so that you can track down the best converting keywords, and also to test specific niche markets.

                Once you have the winners, PPC until you have top 5 organic SEO rankings, then drop PPC and SEO to the end.

                If you get slapped, resume PPC until you recuperate rankings. Simple enough.

                And one more thing Mac.

                Have you ever achieved Google One Box #1 rankings for your offline brick & mortar clients?
                I don't get why you would drop PPC after top 5 ranking when PPC was/is profitable.

                It makes sense test what would happen to overall results if you keep both.
                While running both Campaigns:
                Do you lose/add SE traffic?
                Does it effect SE conversions?
                Does PPC traffic convert better, faster, more $$$
                Does using PPC grow market share? If you own serps and PPC your competitors will have less visibility.
                If you can go out an spend additional $$$ and make it pay why would you not do it?
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                • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
                  Originally Posted by Julian Lockhart View Post

                  I don't get why you would drop PPC after top 5 ranking when PPC was/is profitable.

                  It makes sense test what would happen to overall results if you keep both.
                  While running both Campaigns:
                  Do you lose/add SE traffic?
                  Does it effect SE conversions?
                  Does PPC traffic convert better, faster, more $$$
                  Does using PPC grow market share? If you own serps and PPC your competitors will have less visibility.
                  If you can go out an spend additional $$$ and make it pay why would you not do it?
                  I have kept both, the traffic remains constant, except it gets divided.

                  You do get a bit more traffic by keeping both. But an additional 5% or so traffic increase, is not worth the cost of $50,000 extra per month at all (that's in the case of my 1,000,000 monthly searches ranking).

                  The ROI just doesn't cut it.

                  - Dan

                  P.S:
                  Where did Mac's last post go? It was a good one.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ricsale
                    Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

                    I have kept both, the traffic remains constant, except it gets divided.

                    You do get a bit more traffic by keeping both. But an additional 5% or so traffic increase, is not worth the cost of $50,000 extra per month at all (that's in the case of my 1,000,000 monthly searches ranking).

                    The ROI just doesn't cut it.

                    - Dan
                    I just don't understand this. Surly the total number of clicks is spread over all the available links in the search results (Organic and PPC). So by owning more of those links you must get more clicks.

                    If you don't advertise on PPC then someone else will so they will take the traffic but it won't reduce your organic (SEO) traffic.

                    Does anyone know how the actual traffic compares between PPC1-5 and Organic SEO1-5 ?

                    Because if the PPC traffic is actually a lot lower than the organic then this could perhaps start to make sense.

                    Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author JD Nunes
    Right on, organic search is where it's at, if you know how to work it...plus, I've seen results in literally SECONDS, from posting content to the right places.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    I use both, I teach both.

    Organic SEO is superior to PPC. Also, PPC is superior to organic SEO.
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  • Profile picture of the author catalina_sandor
    thanks daniel, much appreciated..
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  • Profile picture of the author greff
    Daniel,

    Looks like you entered the lion's den.

    Sometimes SEO works, sometimes it doesn't And it's not always dependent on how knowledgable the SEO "expert" is.

    I do SEO but more often than not when I take on a client I advise him/her to do some serious PPC until the SEO catches up, if it ever does. I know this costs more but most clients I have want to make progress quickly and most have some money to invest.

    So, yes, I would love to have the time to allow good SEO to mature. Problem is that it can take a lot of time. As you know, it takes months to get Google to trust a website and take down the barriers (sandbox). You also must know that one of the algorithms is how long a website has been on the web.

    Also, most PPC is under $10 per click and I think the majority is under $5. That's my experience anyway.

    Good luck to you!
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    • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
      Originally Posted by greff View Post

      Daniel,

      Looks like you entered the lion's den.

      Sometimes SEO works, sometimes it doesn't And it's not always dependent on how knowledgable the SEO "expert" is.
      This shouldn't be the case, if it doesn't work, it means Google is changing the rule of the game, we must figure it out...

      I find that Google is much consistent these days, what is working for me now, will probably be working for a long time, if you have a long term strategy.

      Originally Posted by greff View Post

      I do SEO but more often than not when I take on a client I advise him/her to do some serious PPC until the SEO catches up, if it ever does. I know this costs more but most clients I have want to make progress quickly and most have some money to invest.
      There are short term plan, long term plan, and fast traffic plan for SEO, it depends on how you setup the strategy!

      You can drive a lot of fast traffic with long tail keywords, and yes I know PPC will give you instance traffic, but it cost you to get the traffic too.

      If I use the 2 weeks PPC budget and invest in my campaign, I can easily get the same amount of traffic in 2 weeks time, while saving the cost to pay for it, every click!

      Originally Posted by greff View Post

      So, yes, I would love to have the time to allow good SEO to mature. Problem is that it can take a lot of time. As you know, it takes months to get Google to trust a website and take down the barriers (sandbox). You also must know that one of the algorithms is how long a website has been on the web.
      There are many ways to gain "trust", letting it age is just one.

      Originally Posted by greff View Post


      Also, most PPC is under $10 per click and I think the majority is under $5. That's my experience anyway.

      Good luck to you!
      Wow, that is expensive... I love those kind of budget for my SEO campaign


      Originally Posted by ricsale View Post

      In my book SEO and PPC have their place and I use both to great effect for my clients.

      I don't see how/why SEO should provide better conversion rates over PPC because it's the same keywords.
      It's just the fact, but Google is trying hard to make PPC worth to click by the user, that's why Quality Score and Google Slap came into play!

      Originally Posted by ricsale View Post


      So even if you are at #1 on the organic (SEO) results you can still get more traffic and sales by complementing this with PPC. OK yes you are paying for the clicks but in my experience it does not reduce the traffic from the organic (SEO) search engine listing. So the net result is a gain.

      Does anyone else see this?

      Rich
      Yes, you are right, if you have gazillion keywords, like 20,000 keywords in your campaign...
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      • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
        Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

        Steven is right, as it relates to SEO efforts, the better way to assess competition is to look at what efforts are needed in order to produce results. Afterall, the goal is to exceed their current efforts.
        Can you be more specific about the "SEO Efforts"?

        What makes your site rank? Here are some factors that I know:

        1. Backlinks
        2. Your site structure (SILO and LSI)
        3. On page optimization

        Is these the factors you are referring? Care to share more...

        Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

        Quantity of results in Google should never, EVER be the #1 factor in defining the competition for a keyword phrase. It's misleading and, in the end, practically useless information. Unfortunately, that line of thinking has been over-taught and over-used as a method of promotion because it sounds impressive to the uninitiated.
        Quantity of results is a good measurement for almost all long tail keywords, while more competitive keywords, you need to consider:

        1. Quantity of results
        2. Your competitor's backlinks
        3. Your competitor's ranking
        4. On page factors

        Anything that is missing here?

        Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

        Thanks, you summed it up much better than I did in my clumsy way.
        m... are you sure?
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    • Profile picture of the author BethanyTbloosky
      If you can afford it, I say SEO and PPC always complement each other. For example, if you take up the entire 1st page real estate for your best keyword, you gain authority, respect, and your odds of visitors clicking your site go up with each piece of real estate owned by that site.

      For example, if you're in the top 3 positions of the paid ads, you're the #1 organic position with your site's root, and the following postions, above the fold, are your merchant circle accounts, your yelp page, and your yellowpages listing (or any other orangic submission )- and all these contain your business name, people will trust that you're the leader and figure head for whatever they searched. The reason being; people of the world trust Google... and Google is doing whatever they can to keep that trust by improving their algorithm each day, week, month, and year; However, us SEO's know they're not *quite* there yet


      BT
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  • Profile picture of the author MSGeek
    While I mostly agree, there are few points where I tend to differ:

    1. I've seen cases when some users (generic non-computer type) completely ignored organic results and went straight to PPC on the right because they were SHOPPING. You cannot beat that, that's when conversions are the highest. Reason: they don't want content, they want to buy, and they know that's on the right side of the search.

    2. PPC has great uses, for example, for quick tests of a niche or a product.

    3. Each time Google changes it algorithms, you may find yourself at the Step One.

    And yes, it may be free, if your time is free. But that's not what time management people teach. Of course, I still love organic traffic. Who does not?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    All of my current PPC campaigns are profitable. If they aren't, I improve them quickly or drop them fast.

    If I can spend a dollar on PPC which returns me two dollars, you can bet I'd do it. Why wouldn't I?

    Unless you just don't have any money to invest in PPC, to choose one method solely over the other just doesn't make any sense. Anyone who spends time working intelligently at both SEO and PPC can combine both of those into a very successful revenue stream.

    If SEO is good, PPC can make it better. If PPC is good, SEO can make it better. I'd guess the only folks who would try to minimize that point would be those who make money solely teaching or consulting on one or the other.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      All of my current PPC campaigns are profitable. If they aren't, I improve them quickly or drop them fast.

      If I can spend a dollar on PPC which returns me two dollars, you can bet I'd do it. Why wouldn't I?

      Unless you just don't have any money to invest in PPC, to choose one method solely over the other just doesn't make any sense. Anyone who spends time working intelligently at both SEO and PPC can combine both of those into a very successful revenue stream.

      If SEO is good, PPC can make it better. If PPC is good, SEO can make it better. I'd guess the only folks who would try to minimize that point would be those who make money solely teaching or consulting on one or the other.
      I'm not saying PPC is not profitable, I'm just stating that the ROI of SEO is superior. Once you place them against each other in split tests.

      Why? In short, the results are similar, but the cost of PPC is 6-7 figures higher (under the levels of traffic I handle at least).

      I do teach both of them, like I said, I know how to reach a QS of 8-10 with every single one of my PPC campaigns.

      In post #44 of this thread I outlined how you can combine both methods effectively.

      But anyway, I will not continue this debate until someone brings their own rankings to the table.

      All I've seen so far is preaching on how PPC is better because they believe so, but no one has brought any valid points of substance to the thread, at least none that can be backed up succesfully (except Mac).

      No one can really debate against my point unless they have similar or better rankings than me. You can't even begin to draw such conclusions until you reach keyword rankings such as mine.

      Unless you have some other way of backing it up like Mac did (on his deleted post).

      By the way, Mac's last post was quite good, but it got deleted for some reason. It was about OneBox/LBC listings. Where are you Mac?
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        No one can really debate against my point unless they have similar or better rankings than me. You can't even begin to draw such conclusions until you reach "impossible" keyword rankings such as mine.
        I apologize for expressing my opinions. Before I posted I didn't realize you were able to do the impossible.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

          I apologize for expressing my opinions. Before I posted I didn't realize you were able to do the impossible.
          Which is precisely why "impossible" is under quotes.

          Go ahead and ask any 'SEO expert' to tell you in how long can they achieve top 5 Google rankings for a keyword such as business consulting.

          300,000 monthly searches according to the Google Keyword Tool - 40,000,000 competing sites - 4,500,000 competing sites under quotes. Competing sites/domains have years, some even decades of antiquity. And the incoming links to the competition are absurd, they have tens of thousands literally (Micro Niche Finder SoC is Red 45,000).

          All the ones I've asked have told me it's "impossible" or "will take years".

          I did it in under 1 month, with a 4 month old site and domain. I've even openly challenged everyone to try and beat my rankings.

          So I'm just quoting the industry.
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      • Profile picture of the author MSGeek
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        But anyway, I will not continue this debate until someone brings their own rankings to the table.
        Really? How, for example, about my argument of using PPC to quickly test a niche before investing time and money into the site, content, SEO, and, potentially, even a product? How is SEO better than PPC for this purpose?
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        • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
          Originally Posted by MSGeek View Post

          Really? How, for example, about my argument of using PPC to quickly test a niche before investing time and money into the site, content, SEO, and, potentially, even a product? How is SEO better than PPC for this purpose?
          Lol, do you know how Jeff Johnson do his research?

          We can build bunch of auto blogs before attacking a market, just an idea is enough to build these blogs!

          Don't for a moment think that building these blogs take a lot of time! You can automate all these stuff with minimum spending! And the greatest part, each blog actually contribute the income from adsense or amazon sales!

          After setup bunch of auto blogs, let it run by its' own, auto backlinks and let it grow until a point where some hit the Jackpot, just like PPC!

          We enter the market when the traffic starts to jump high, adding more content and banner ads to redirect the traffic to our money site. No time and money wasted, and we get to build tons of nice sites that we can easily monetize from selling it!

          Both PPC and organic works great, but organic search tends to have lower cost in long run, that's the fact!
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by MSGeek View Post

          Really? How, for example, about my argument of using PPC to quickly test a niche before investing time and money into the site, content, SEO, and, potentially, even a product? How is SEO better than PPC for this purpose?
          I already agreed on the diversification aspect long ago. As for the debate, I'm speaking of which beats which in terms of the stand alone method.
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    • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
      Banned
      I'm with you on this. I have trained personally under Perry Marshall and paid him thousands, worth every penny. Perry is one of the best trainers, and not just for Adwords.

      Perry was trained by Dan Kennedy and was a Platinum member, he knows Marketing. Frank Kern, Yanik Silver, Jeff Paul, Mike Filsaime, Jonathan Mizel, Rosalind Gardner, Michel Fortin, were trained via Dan Kennedy and many others including myself.

      Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, seems all of us have something in common. We know "How to Market."

      Driving Traffic via SEO or PPC is just one of the many components to a good campaign.

      I have attended several small group meetings (less than 15) with Perry and his students, and let me tell ya, some of these guys are making SERIOUS bank. I'm talking Millions, and many of these people were in there 20's, amazing.

      Yes, they all had SEO in place, but they realized PPC is where the real money was. Easy to test, get in and out, more reliable, steady income, etc...

      Many of these students had the #1 PPC spot but were paying the same price as the lowest spot on Page 1. Perry is also big into using Drip email campaigns and Conversion via your site once the person hits your landing page.

      When you know how to use PPC properly, 99.99% of all IMers don't know how, then the real money can flow.

      PPC used properly, with a great landing page, a drip campaign, compelling Call to Actions and a Sense of Real Urgency can drop your PPC cost to almost nothing.

      Mac

      P.S. Why do you think Google is constantly changing algorithms, like 400x a year? Very few changes via PPC (mostly to rid spammers, CPA/Affiliate crap) new tools, analytics, etc... Guess where Google makes their money?

      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      All of my current PPC campaigns are profitable. If they aren't, I improve them quickly or drop them fast.

      If I can spend a dollar on PPC which returns me two dollars, you can bet I'd do it. Why wouldn't I?

      Unless you just don't have any money to invest in PPC, to choose one method solely over the other just doesn't make any sense. Anyone who spends time working intelligently at both SEO and PPC can combine both of those into a very successful revenue stream.

      If SEO is good, PPC can make it better. If PPC is good, SEO can make it better. I'd guess the only folks who would try to minimize that point would be those who make money solely teaching or consulting on one or the other.
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      • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post


        Perry was trained by Dan Kennedy and was a Platinum member, he knows Marketing. Frank Kern, Yanik Silver, Mike Filsaime, Jonathan Mizel, Rosalind Gardner, Michel Fortin, were trained via Dan Kennedy and many others including myself.
        A lot of big name here, where is Jeff Johnson?

        Jeff had all the properties he need to rank for any product keywords, and he don't have to pay for it.

        I must agree PPC is relatively easy to learn and mastered, that's why all these big names are using it!

        Don't forget Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher, they are my favorite "PPC guys"!
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        PPC used properly, with a great landing page, a drip campaign, compelling Call to Actions and a Sense of Real Urgency can drop your PPC cost to almost nothing.
        Please enlighten me, because I still don't buy it.

        The most competitive keywords (1,000,000+ monthly searches) will cost you at the very least $1 USD of CPC, even with a QS of 10.

        Position #1 in either PPC or Organic will bring you roughly 400,000 unique visitors per month.

        That's $400,000 USD per month of PPC, under the lowest cost possible for that keyword.

        And the same results cost $500 USD per month via SEO.

        Therefore, provided a great landing page, a drip campaign, compelling Call to Actions and a Sense of Real Urgency. SEO just costed you $399,500 LESS than PPC, for the exact SAME RESULTS.

        I don't doubt your experience Mac, but I believe those conclusions come from the assumption that 1,000,000 monthly search keywords cannot be achieved via organic SEO, or that they will take years.

        My model has proven that assumption wrong, because I can pull them off in under 1-3 months.

        And what about LBC/OneBox rankings? You said yourself those beat PPC, that's also organic SEO.
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        • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
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          Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

          And what about LBC/OneBox rankings? You said yourself those beat PPC, that's also organic SEO.
          I wouldn't say LBC is Orgnanic. Most of it is currently Black-Hat, including myself. :rolleyes:

          LBC places a lot of emphasis on the business that is dead center of the city, kind of hard to organically change that. Most do it with UPS mail boxes.

          Right now, LBC is the Wild-Wild West of Google searches.

          I would argue LBC is better than PPC and SEO. Especially with all the Black-Hat that is going on.

          Ask TerryG he knows LBC better than anyone.

          Mac
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
            Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

            I wouldn't say LBC is Orgnanic. Most of it is currently Black-Hat, including myself. :rolleyes:

            LBC places a lot of emphasis on the business that is dead center of the city, kind of hard to organically change that. Most do it with UPS mail boxes.

            Right now, LBC is the Wild-Wild West of Google searches.

            I would argue LBC is better than PPC and SEO. Especially with all the Black-Hat that is going on.

            Ask TerryG he knows LBC better than anyone.

            Mac
            I agree that the LBC/OneBox is amazing.

            But how is it not organic? It follows essentially the same process as organic SEO, except certain things such as additional meta tags, registration, reviews etc...

            Anyway, organic or not, when I started this debate I did it under my perception that the OneBox is organic.

            So that's SEO+OneBox Beats PPC.

            And you didn't reply to my cost analysis:

            Therefore, provided a great landing page, a drip campaign, compelling Call to Actions and a Sense of Real Urgency. SEO just costed you $399,500 LESS than PPC, for the exact SAME RESULTS.

            I don't doubt your experience Mac, but I believe those conclusions come from the assumption that 1,000,000 monthly search keywords cannot be achieved via organic SEO, or that they will take years.
            I want you to explain me to me the logic of how PPC can be more profitable than that? Because that's an analysis made based on the lowest PPC cost possible for such a term.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        I'm with you on this. I have trained personally under Perry Marshall and paid him thousands, worth every penny. Perry is one of the best trainers, and not just for Adwords.

        Perry was trained by Dan Kennedy and was a Platinum member, he knows Marketing. Frank Kern, Yanik Silver, Mike Filsaime, Jonathan Mizel, Rosalind Gardner, Michel Fortin, were trained via Dan Kennedy and many others including myself.
        Yes, thanks.

        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        I have attended several small group meetings (less than 15) with Perry and his students, and let me tell ya, some of these guys are making SERIOUS bank. I'm talking Millions, and many of these people were in there 20's, amazing.

        Yes, they all had SEO in place, but they realized PPC is where the real money was. Easy to test, get in and out, more reliable, steady income, etc...
        Right. Where PPC has a huge advantage over organic SEO is the ability to be nimble. Immediacy can be a huge competitive advantage.

        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        Many of these students had the #1 PPC spot but were paying the same price as the lowest spot on Page 1.
        I can personally attest to that. I have a campaign now running which for particular keywords cost me 50 cents per click just to get on page one. I honed, honed, honed and tweaked and tweaked and tested and now (I just checked, as I do each day) that campaign is ALWAYS #1 in Adwords for my keyword phrases, it has a 34.04% CTR as of today, the conversion rate on my offer page is considerably higher than from the organic SEO pages, AND I'm now paying 13 cents per click.

        When I started in PPC (way back in the days of Goto.com!), I threw literally thousands of dollars away. Now I'm a lot smarter, having learned a lot through a whole bunch of mistakes.

        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        PPC used properly, with a great landing page, a drip campaign, compelling Call to Actions and a Sense of Real Urgency can drop your PPC cost to almost nothing.
        Spot on. Great post, MacFreddie.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    Sorry, I don't subscribe to the notion of "millions" of competing sites, and using quotes to identify actual competition really isn't effective. In my decades of SEO experience, I can never recall myself ever referring to any target as "impossible".

    I'm not exactly sure which "experts" are using the words "impossible" to rank, but if they are then they really don't seem very "expert" at all, now do they?
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      Sorry, I don't subscribe to the notion of "millions" of competing sites, and using quotes to identify actual competition really isn't effective. In my decades of SEO experience, I can never recall myself ever referring to any target as "impossible".

      I'm not exactly sure which "experts" are using the words "impossible" to rank, but if they are then they really don't seem very "expert" at all, now do they?
      Use any of your techniques to identify the competition of that keyword, by any angle it's extremely competitive. I've mentioned 3 other competition measurements other than quotes that you seem to have ignored in your reply.

      And if you're so good, why don't you show me one of your rankings that can match mine?

      Or even better, that is the keyword that made me $125,000 USD in 1 day. I challenge you to outrank me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        300,000 monthly searches according to the Google Keyword Tool ... Competing sites/domains have years, some even decades of antiquity. And the incoming links to the competition are absurd, they have tens of thousands literally (Micro Niche Finder SoC is Red 45,000).
        Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

        I've mentioned 3 other competition measurements other than competing sites that you seem to have ignored in your reply.
        I quote myself above. Go ahead and enlighten us about your measurement techniques.

        And why are you evading my questions?

        Why don't you show me one of your rankings that can even come close to matching mine?

        Or why don't you attempt to outrank me for my 7 figure keyword?

        We can use your own standards of measurement for the comparison, I don't mind.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
          Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

          And why are you evading my questions?
          I'm not evading your questions, I'm simply pointing out that simple quantity is not a useful measurement of competition, and it hasn't been for quite some time now. The progressive parts of the SEO industry have moved past pure quantity as a valid tool for identifying competition because it has become obsolete.

          STRENGTH of competition, not quantity of competition, is what the true SEO experts gauge when determining what efforts are necessary to rank for a term.

          Saying I can rank a page #1 out of a gazillion pages makes for compelling sales copy. It doesn't hold much value in the real world, where Google limits results to 1,000.
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
            Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

            I'm not evading your questions, I'm simply pointing out that simple quantity is not a useful measurement of competition, and it hasn't been for quite some time now. The progressive parts of the SEO industry have moved past pure quantity as a valid tool for identifying competition because it has become obsolete.

            STRENGTH of competition, not quantity of competition, is what the true SEO experts gauge when determining what efforts are necessary to rank for a term.

            Saying I can rank a page #1 out of a gazillion pages makes for compelling sales copy. It doesn't hold much value in the real world, where Google limits results to 1,000.
            Steven, I did provide you with the strength of competition as well.

            Micro Niche Finder has a feature that will measure it based on several variables such as incoming links/backlinks, PageRank of backlinks, page PageRank, antiquity, and several others. The feature is called Strenght of Competition (SoC) itself...

            Other keyword tools provide similar functions.

            The point is, # of competing sites aside, all strength of competition variables demonstrate that my 7 figure keyword business consulting is an extremely competitive term.

            And the only reason I still use the quotes and # of competing sites as a form of measurement, is because there is a direct correlation between strength of competition and # of competing sites.

            The most competitive keywords, by strength of competition standards, also have millions of competing sites under quotes.

            So it's not obsolete.

            If you disagree, show me just one competitive keyword that doesn't correlate.
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            • Profile picture of the author Treborrevo
              Boy, nothing like a good SEO Death Match to make a Friday interesting.

              If Daniel did win on a weak competition term that was worth 7 figures, then I would not choose to mock his skills - but admire his strategy of finding under-exploited SEO keywords and making a million bucks off them. And next I'd ask him to PM me how he did it.

              That's just me...

              Daniel, is the "HOW" of what you've done inside your Newbie Blueprint?

              On a side note: the only real way to see who's web-fu is strongest is to have a panel pick a competitive, valuable search term and have the two contestants go head to head with their methods for ranking. That would pretty much end the discussion.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
                Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

                Boy, nothing like a good SEO Death Match to make a Friday interesting.

                If Daniel did win on a weak competition term that was worth 7 figures, then I would not choose to mock his skills - but admire his strategy of finding under-exploited SEO keywords and making a million bucks off them. And next I'd ask him to PM me how he did it.

                That's just me...

                Daniel, is the "HOW" of what you've done inside your Newbie Blueprint?

                On a side note: the only real way to see who's web-fu is strongest is to have a panel pick a competitive, valuable search term and have the two contestants go head to head with their methods for ranking. That would pretty much end the discussion.
                The Newbie Blueprint only has the most basic SEO. So no.

                My strategy is actually in ranking for the most exploited and competitive keywords, not the under exploited.

                I haven't made a million yet, but I'm not far from doing so in sales.

                The "HOW" of how I'm doing this is in my fully sold out for 2009 - $7,500-$50,000 USD coaching/mentoring program. I just can't handle any more clients this year.

                But you can always apply to the 2010 waiting list, it's currently at March.

                (Do you really think someone would reveal such information for $37?)

                Anyway, I would be glad to compete for a random keyword.

                My SEO team is getting bored.
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              • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
                Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

                I'm not evading your questions, I'm simply pointing out that simple quantity is not a useful measurement of competition, and it hasn't been for quite some time now. The progressive parts of the SEO industry have moved past pure quantity as a valid tool for identifying competition because it has become obsolete.

                STRENGTH of competition, not quantity of competition, is what the true SEO experts gauge when determining what efforts are necessary to rank for a term.

                Saying I can rank a page #1 out of a gazillion pages makes for compelling sales copy. It doesn't hold much value in the real world, where Google limits results to 1,000.
                Strength of competition is measure by:

                1. Quantity of competition
                2. The page rank of your competitor site(s)
                2. The back links of your competitor site(s)

                Unless you can outrank Daniel, I am pretty sure he is right! It doesn't matter how many results Google is limited to show, Google already tell you the number of pages competing for that keyword!

                So, what is your measurement of competitiveness? Care to share?
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
                  Originally Posted by kkchoon View Post

                  Strength of competition is measure by:

                  1. Quantity of competition
                  2. The page rank of your competitor site(s)
                  2. The back links of your competitor site(s)
                  Quantity of results in Google should never, EVER be the #1 factor in defining the competition for a keyword phrase. It's misleading and, in the end, practically useless information. Unfortunately, that line of thinking has been over-taught and over-used as a method of promotion because it sounds impressive to the uninitiated.
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            • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
              Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

              Steven, I did provide you with the strength of competition as well.

              Micro Niche Finder has a feature that will measure it based on several variables such as incoming links/backlinks, PageRank of backlinks, page PageRank, antiquity, and several others. The feature is called Strenght of Competition (SoC) itself...

              Other keyword tools provide similar functions.

              The point is, # of competing sites aside, all strength of competition variables demonstrate that my 7 figure keyword business consulting is an extremely competitive term.

              And the only reason I still use the quotes and # of competing sites as a form of measurement, is because there is a direct correlation between strength of competition and # of competing sites.

              The most competitive keywords, by strength of competition standards, also have millions of competing sites under quotes.

              So it's not obsolete.

              If you disagree, show me just one competitive keyword that doesn't correlate.
              It seems this argument is actually over the perception of "competition".

              Daniel, when you use quotes to check a term, what Google is doing is showing you the sites that have that exact phrase somewhere on the page. While these can be seen as competition because they DO rank, they're not necessarily optimizing for that term and thus may not be actual SEO competition. By taking that perspective, all the results showing without quotes are also the same type of competition.

              Steven is right, as it relates to SEO efforts, the better way to assess competition is to look at what efforts are needed in order to produce results. Afterall, the goal is to exceed their current efforts.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
                Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                Steven is right, as it relates to SEO efforts, the better way to assess competition is to look at what efforts are needed in order to produce results. Afterall, the goal is to exceed their current efforts.
                Thanks, you summed it up much better than I did in my clumsy way.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
                Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                It seems this argument is actually over the perception of "competition".

                Daniel, when you use quotes to check a term, what Google is doing is showing you the sites that have that exact phrase somewhere on the page. While these can be seen as competition because they DO rank, they're not necessarily optimizing for that term and thus may not be actual SEO competition. By taking that perspective, all the results showing without quotes are also the same type of competition.

                Steven is right, as it relates to SEO efforts, the better way to assess competition is to look at what efforts are needed in order to produce results. Afterall, the goal is to exceed their current efforts.
                There is still a direct correlation.

                Take any competitive keyword by your SEO efforts standard, or by your strength of competition standards, place it Google under quotes and it will have millions of competing sites.

                If you disagree, then like I said before, show me a competitive keyword that does not correlate.
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                • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
                  Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

                  There is still a direct correlation.

                  Take any competitive keyword by your SEO efforts standard, or by your strength of competition standards, place it Google under quotes and it will have millions of competing sites.

                  If you disagree, then like I said before, show me a competitive keyword that does not correlate.
                  It simply can't be quantified by that. A competitive term in regards to seo, could be several things. It depends on the seo metric, specific to the term, that is considered competitive, and is completely relative to that term.

                  IE: (this is just an illustration of this idea)

                  1. Term A requires greater link velocity to rank
                  2. Term B requires a great amount of authority and trust to rank

                  So, what I'm saying is saying a term is competitive because of sheer amount of results in Google, isn't actually accomplishing anything or helping you get farther up in the index.

                  Also, ranking number 5 for a 'competitive' term, isn't exactly something I'd be bragging about. Calling out other SEO's to beat you for a result is simply a poor argument, as it requires resources and time to engage in SEO efforts... and you want us to do it for no other reason than beating you, with no promise of compensation?? You're clever at illustrating your point, but not because you're correct.
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                  • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
                    Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                    Also, ranking number 5 for a 'competitive' term, isn't exactly something I'd be bragging about. Calling out other SEO's to beat you for a result is simply a poor argument, as it requires resources and time to engage in SEO efforts... and you want us to do it for no other reason than beating you, with no promise of compensation?? You're clever at illustrating your point, but not because you're correct.
                    Do you have a better way to quantify the competition? I would like to hear it from SEO guy... please?

                    Is there anyway we can tell how competitive is a keyword, and how to outrank it?

                    I beg you for answer, please...!!!
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                    • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
                      Originally Posted by kkchoon View Post

                      Do you have a better way to quantify the competition? I would like to hear it from SEO guy... please?

                      Is there anyway we can tell how competitive is a keyword, and how to outrank it?

                      I beg you for answer, please...!!!
                      Apparently you're not comprehending what I'm saying. There isn't a single "one size fits all" way to gauge competition for keywords. It's specific to the particular keyword. What works in local or geographically targeted plumber keyword isn't going to be the same thing that works on an international scientific query.

                      Also, per your post a few posts above, LSI refers to an indexing method, not a SEO technique.
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                      • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
                        Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                        Apparently you're not comprehending what I'm saying. There isn't a single "one size fits all" way to gauge competition for keywords. It's specific to the particular keyword. What works in local or geographically targeted plumber keyword isn't going to be the same thing that works on an international scientific query.
                        Nothing I don't already know; I though there are something new here, sorry for wasting your time... :p
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                      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
                        Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                        Apparently you're not comprehending what I'm saying. There isn't a single "one size fits all" way to gauge competition for keywords. It's specific to the particular keyword. What works in local or geographically targeted plumber keyword isn't going to be the same thing that works on an international scientific query.

                        Also, per your post a few posts above, LSI refers to an indexing method, not a SEO technique.
                        You're making SEO a lot more complicated than it really is. A lot of the stuff you have claimed has effect, does not make any difference at all.

                        In terms of global competition, the determining factors are all the same.

                        Incoming links, authority of source of incoming links, antiquity, anchor text, on site SEO, etc...

                        And the variables for local searches are indeed different, but can also be measured objectively.

                        In fact, by simply knowing what some of the variables in the Google algorithm are, you can measure the competition objectively for any niche, at any level, using exactly the same variables.

                        Speed of backlinks needed? Where did you get that from?

                        The first thing one of my mentors told me, who also happened to be a search engine algorithm developer and ex Google employee was (paraphrase):

                        "Don't pay attention to all the advice found in those 'reputable' SEO forums, sites and provided by the so called 'SEO Experts' is 90% BS. I should know. Those things will only hurt your rankings."


                        Looks like he was right on the money.

                        Want to prove me wrong? Bring your rankings to the table and make sure we can verify they are yours.

                        I'm not questioning your expertise, you do seem to know a lot on the subject. But there's things you mention that have simply little to no effect.
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                        • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
                          Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

                          You're making SEO a lot more complicated than it really is. A lot of the stuff you have claimed has effect, does not make any difference at all.

                          In terms of global competition, the determining factors are all the same.

                          Incoming links, authority of source of incoming links, antiquity, anchor text, on site SEO, etc...

                          And the variables for local searches are indeed different, but can also be measured objectively.

                          In fact, by simply knowing what some of the variable in the Google algorithm are, you can measure the competition objectively for any niche, at any level using exactly the same variables.

                          Speed of backlinks needed? Where did you get that from?

                          The first thing one of my mentors told me, who also happened to be a search engine algorithm developer and ex Google employee was (paraphrase):

                          "All the advice found in those 'reputable' SEO forums, sites and provided by the so called 'SEO Experts' is 90% BS. I should know. Those things will only hurt your rankings."


                          Looks like he was right on the money.

                          Want to prove me wrong? Bring your rankings to the table and make sure we can verify they are yours.

                          I'm not questioning your expertise, you do seem to know a lot on the subject. But there's things you mention that have simply little to no effect.
                          Why do you always turn everything into a pissing contest?

                          In regards to listing my clientele and their placements, no thanks. There are plenty of members here that can vouch for me.

                          You've never heard of link velocity? Do you read the patent applications at all? United States Patent Application: 0050071741

                          Essentially via link velocity and decay anomalies can be used as a flag for closer inspection in this case the intent being to artificially inflate a link profile.

                          Here's a patent on this filed by microsoft:

                          United States Patent Application: 0080147669

                          Edit: I replied to this before you edited your post to include the "I wasn't insulting you". I mean no hostile intent in any of my posts towards you, just trying to offer my input on this matter

                          2nd Edit: Also, can we stop with the ad hominum attacks and just agree to disagree on some of these matters? I believe that intelligent debate enriches the forum and in the end, it's up the reader who benefits from all of this to make his or her own choices based on what he/she has read. Obviously there isn't a single answer to the SEO question.. what you do works, what I do works... let's keep it at that.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
                            Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                            Why do you always turn everything into a pissing contest?

                            In regards to listing my clientele and their placements, no thanks. There are plenty of members here that can vouch for me.

                            You've never heard of link velocity? Do you read the patent applications at all? United States Patent Application: 0050071741

                            Essentially via link velocity and decay anomalies can be used as a flag for closer inspection in this case the intent being to artificially inflate a link profile.

                            Here's a patent on this filed by microsoft:

                            United States Patent Application: 0080147669

                            Edit: I replied to this before you edited your post to include the "I wasn't insulting you". I mean no hostile intent in any of my posts towards you, just trying to offer my input on this matter

                            2nd Edit: Also, can we stop with the ad hominum attacks and just agree to disagree on some of these matters? I believe that intelligent debate enriches the forum and in the end, it's up the reader who benefits from all of this to make his or her own choices based on what he/she has read. Obviously there isn't a single answer to the SEO question.. what you do works, what I do works... let's keep it at that.
                            I had not seen those patents, and I don't think I would ever like to see the upcoming ones. Over analyzing SEO like that would lead to potential suicide.

                            My model is based on parameters, variables and factors that have worked in the past, work now, and will work in the future.

                            It relies on the parts of the algorithm that Google will most likely never change, because changing them would cause an immediate loss of market share to the competition.

                            But yes, I agree to disagree. What we're doing is obviously working and it's not the same thing. So I guess there is no absolute truth on the subject.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
                    Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

                    It simply can't be quantified by that. A competitive term in regards to seo, could be several things. It depends on the seo metric, specific to the term, that is considered competitive, and is completely relative to that term.

                    IE: (this is just an illustration of this idea)

                    1. Term A requires greater link velocity to rank
                    2. Term B requires a great amount of authority and trust to rank

                    So, what I'm saying is saying a term is competitive because of sheer amount of results in Google, isn't actually accomplishing anything or helping you get farther up in the index.

                    Also, ranking number 5 for a 'competitive' term, isn't exactly something I'd be bragging about. Calling out other SEO's to beat you for a result is simply a poor argument, as it requires resources and time to engage in SEO efforts... and you want us to do it for no other reason than beating you, with no promise of compensation?? You're clever at illustrating your point, but not because you're correct.
                    I was actually in position #2 for that term druing the past 4 months, beating the 30 year old domain IBM, this week I dropped to 5.

                    It's just a dance, I'll be back by next week.

                    I'm #1 in Caffeine Google.

                    Anyway, back on topic, by any measurement of competition in existence, that is a competitive term.

                    Either way, what really matters is the targeted traffic provided by the term and how much profit it generates.

                    That is the only logical aspect we should be measuring when it comes to a "competitive term".

                    Under that assumption, every single term that has more than 1,000,000 monthly exact searches, has millions of competing sites under qutoes.

                    And therefore it is a valid measurement point.

                    Compensation? That's my $125,000 USD in under 24 hours keyword phrase.

                    How much more compensation could you possibly want? It's a 7 figure term.
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                    • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
                      Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

                      Compensation? That's my $125,000 USD in under 24 hours keyword phrase.

                      How much more compensation could you possibly want? It's a 7 figure term.
                      I like that number...!
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                    • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
                      Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

                      Either way, what really matters is the targeted traffic provided by the term and how much profit it generates.

                      That is the only logical aspect we should be measuring when it comes to a "competitive term".

                      Under that assumption, every single term that has more than 1,000,000 monthly exact searches, has millions of competing sites under qutoes.

                      And therefore it is a valid measurement point.

                      Compensation? That's my $125,000 USD in under 24 hours keyword phrase.

                      How much more compensation could you possibly want? It's a 7 figure term.
                      Yes, I do agree with that. 2 caveats though:

                      1. Just because a term is money term, doesn't mean it's competitive. That's the entire point of niche reseach... I'm sure there are still some keywords/phrases around that are worth millions of monthly visitors and fantastic revenue. It's just a matter of finding those. So, in that respect, you're right until someone comes out and gives us a "golden keyword" as an example.

                      2. While you may be able to make 7 figures from that keyword, most of us SEO guys wouldn't be able to. We aren't in that line of business and don't have the infrastructure or expertise to be able to actually provide the services for that term. I'm sure there are some big time law/medicine related queries that have the intent of hiring an expert in that space, but I wouldn't be able to directly monetize that either. So, it's not exactly compensation for "me".
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    Sorry, apparently I've touched a sensitive nerve in regard to faulty methods for defining competition and experts claiming that ranking for a particular term is "impossible". I really don't recall any expert claiming that ranking for any term is impossible -- if it were, there's no reason to consider them an expert.

    Frankly, I find all these over-hyped notions like ranking #1 out of 500,000,000,000 pages to be way too much unsubstantiated sales crap and way too little on the reality of what goes on with SEO.

    Google only returns 1,000 results for a keyword search. Period. But like I said, it does make for a compelling sales pitch to tell potential customers that a certain expert can rank their pages #1 out of eleventy-billion pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author Universal_Soul
    Daniel,

    I thought you basically should do both?

    I don't really understand the point of whole this, it's as you got do EITHER Seo OR ppc, and as there is only 100 000 potential visitors, and if you'd get 30 000 through ppc, it would somewhow take from you seo acquired 100 000. It's opposite to what I learn (ie Stompernet, A. Wall etc). If you get 100 000 from seo, then if you'd add 30 000 from the ppc you'd have 130 000 visitors. Plus there are much more keywords then business consulting alone I bet. your alexa rank is 135 as I see (100k visitors a month) mine is 1,3 mln (8k a month) - so I really don't have too much argument power, and am total beginner. What I notice though is that the number of unique visitors from Seo actuall ADS to ppc, and if you use both you get best results.

    So 100 000k from seo will cost you 1k, and make you 50k (making you ie 20k clear profit), and another 30k from ppc will cost you 5k clear profit.

    It's just a suggestion.

    Best

    JJ
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    • Profile picture of the author Universal_Soul
      I was supposed to say:
      "...will cost 10k and make you 5k clear profit."
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Totally agree with you Daniel. What you left out as a point is that SEO when done properly is sustaining. A site that develops authority continues to be linked to in an organic way maintaining its advantage.

    Now to some a huge part of SEO is in fact buying links or link packages. For them it may feel alot more like PPC but if you are building content and have a natural link plan in place then PPC can be ignored.

    Now that said there are times when SEO is overkill and a waste of time. If your plans are short term and you want to be in and then out of a product or niche then thats the way to go.
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    • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
      Banned
      Daniel,

      I may go after the #1 position for "business consulting" next week.

      I have never gone after that term, yet I am confident that I can bump You, IBM, and Entrepreneur magazine in less than 24 hours.

      Not kidding!

      My problem is that you and others will see how I did it and it will no longer be my secret. I rank #1 to #3 for ANY keyword via SEO in less than 72 hours, and I keep that position.

      Let me ask you this. How upset would you and all the other SEO guuurus be if I could Dominate any keyword in 24 hours? I'd like a serious answer.

      Mac
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        Daniel,

        I may go after the #1 position for "business consulting" next week.

        I have never gone after that term, yet I am confident that I can bump You, IBM, and Entrepreneur magazine in less than 24 hours.

        Not kidding!

        My problem is that you and others will see how I did it and it will no longer be my secret. I rank #1 to #3 for ANY keyword via SEO in less than 72 hours, and I keep that position.

        Let me ask you this. How upset would you and all the other SEO guuurus be if I could Dominate any keyword in 24 hours? I'd like a serious answer.

        Mac
        Via organic SEO 1-10 rankings? I would call bull****, and if it was possible yes everyone would be extremely pissed.

        But I know it's not true.

        Because in your deleted post back on page 1, you said no one would want to mess with me when it comes to global SEO rankings. And that no one would want to mess with you when it comes to local rankings.

        You had already acknowledged my superior global SEO skills.

        You even said you had not achieved what I had, and pointed to what you did indeed achieve (impressive local rankings).

        That's why I wanted to continue debating with you, because you certainly know what to do when it comes to LBC rankings.

        What happened to that post?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        Daniel,

        I may go after the #1 position for "business consulting" next week.

        I have never gone after that term, yet I am confident that I can bump You, IBM, and Entrepreneur magazine in less than 24 hours.

        Not kidding!
        Well I'd like to see this. As an onlooker to this back and forth it sure would be interesting. You did say you weren't kidding right?

        Let the games begin!
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        • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
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          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Well I'd like to see this. As an onlooker to this back and forth it sure would be interesting. You did say you weren't kidding right?

          Let the games begin!
          I may give my method to TerryG, we've spoken on the phone before. Terry shared some good info with me. I'll let Terry and Daniel duke it out. With Terrys background it will be like Lesnar vs Mir, yup.

          Terry is probably the best SEO guy I know. I'm afraid he may take over the World if I show him this secret that very few people know.

          Mac
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
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            • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
              Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

              Is that why you're posting on Terry's thread under a different username, impersonating a newbie? Are you guys working together?

              We can track IP addresses you know, and so can Moderators.

              Yeah, I don't appreciate the UFC condescending reference.

              Guys, Mr. Mac has been BSing his way through this entire thread. You will soon notice a banned sign under his user name.
              Working together? No sir, I talked to Mac on the phone a few weeks back when I first started my SEO guy thread. We chatted about some local stuff, after him seeing me mention it in there. Haven't talked since then, except for an email I sent him to touch base about a week ago.

              Also, what would be the benefit of us working together? This isn't a sales thread or anything. Actually, he just replied in my SEO guy thread too.
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            • Profile picture of the author MacFreddie
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

              Is that why you're posting on Terry's thread under a different username, impersonating a newbie? Are you guys working together?

              We can track IP addresses you know, and so can Moderators.

              Yeah, I don't appreciate the UFC condescending reference.

              Guys, Mr. Mac has been BSing his way through this entire thread. You will soon notice a banned sign under his user name.
              Daniel, are you serious? C'mon bud, don't get so defensive.

              I've talked on the phone with Terry for several hours previously, he's a great guy.

              Terry doesn't need my help nor anyone else, he is very successful without any input from anyone.

              What I told you was True, no BS.

              I told you before I respect what you have done with your SEO skills, but I have to give Terry credit also. Terrys been doing SEO for almost 10 years and has Fortune 500 companies as clients.

              My point was this, If I gave Terry my inside secret about getting to #1 in less than 72 hours, then yes, it would be like Lessnar vs Mir.

              And vice-versa if I gave it to you.

              I have tremendous respect for both of you.

              Chill out man.

              Sincerely,

              Mac
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          • Profile picture of the author Universal_Soul
            but there is still good 'ol Emelianenko out there....
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      • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
        Originally Posted by MacFreddie View Post

        Daniel,

        I may go after the #1 position for "business consulting" next week.

        I have never gone after that term, yet I am confident that I can bump You, IBM, and Entrepreneur magazine in less than 24 hours.

        Not kidding!

        My problem is that you and others will see how I did it and it will no longer be my secret. I rank #1 to #3 for ANY keyword via SEO in less than 72 hours, and I keep that position.

        Let me ask you this. How upset would you and all the other SEO guuurus be if I could Dominate any keyword in 24 hours? I'd like a serious answer.

        Mac
        Mac, I will do whatever to find out your secret! And frankly I don't believe you, do it or you are a liar!
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
          Originally Posted by kkchoon View Post

          Mac, I will do whatever to find out your secret! And frankly I don't believe you, do it or you are a liar!
          He can't do it.

          Anyway, I need to go work a bit. Talk to you guys later.
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        • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
          Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

          Yeah, let's say a client called me today and wanted to rank for "widgets".

          Here's my initial thought process in terms of competition:

          1. Look at the top 10 sites, are they sub pages or root domains? Are they brands I recognize?
          2. Look at the age of those 10 sites. What is the average age?
          3. Look at their backlinks. Use MajesticSEO or similar to see backlink quantity and growth over time. Good for figuring out how aggressive the competitors are.
          4. What type of links is this property acquiring? 80% blog comments? Are all of the links from the same few sites? Is the competitor actively, obviously buying link placements? This helps me gauge the relative amount of trust and authority the site has in Google and how robust their linking efforts are. Are they getting very high quality links from universities and professional organizations... wall street journal etc?
          5. What type of social media/networking penetration do these competitors have? Is there a lot of brand buzz or brand related queries?
          Thanks for the detail reply, I've learned a lot here!

          I am guessing that SEO expert do these kind of detail analysis for highly competitive keyword, and plan their attack strategy accordingly?

          I prefer to keep thing simple - Just do the best on page and off page optimization to my site, and start kicking ass...!
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          • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
            Originally Posted by kkchoon View Post

            Thanks for the detail reply, I've learned a lot here!

            I am guessing that SEO expert do these kind of detail analysis for highly competitive keyword, and plan their attack strategy accordingly?

            I prefer to keep thing simple - Just do the best on page and off page optimization to my site, and start kicking ass...!
            Yep, the results that I get from that analysis helps me plan my attack and really figure out how much time I'll need to spend on the project, thus, estimate the cost to the client. That's my personal method though, not sure how everyone else does it. It works for me.

            The biggest tip I can give to be successful in seo... is just to do it. And keep doing it.
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            • PPC is always secondary to a well designed and executed SEO campaign. The majority of my clients opt for initial PPC transitioning to straight organic once placement has been achieved in the top results.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by kkchoon View Post

          Mac, I will do whatever to find out your secret! And frankly I don't believe you, do it or you are a liar!
          Hehehe

          Meanwhile we get ready to scan his site for all tweaks and links
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    • Profile picture of the author kkchoon
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Totally agree with you Daniel. What you left out as a point is that SEO when done properly is sustaining. A site that develops authority continues to be linked to in an organic way maintaining its advantage.

      Now to some a huge part of SEO is in fact buying links or link packages. For them it may feel alot more like PPC but if you are building content and have a natural link plan in place then PPC can be ignored.

      Now that said there are times when SEO is overkill and a waste of time. If your plans are short term and you want to be in and then out of a product or niche then thats the way to go.
      You are right! SEO is not free, the point here is - using SEO cost you a lot less and converts better (most of the time), but takes time.

      Unless you are planning on short run, then PPC is the way to go... if you have all the budget for SEO and PPC, then you might choose to do SEO or both the same time!


      Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

      Yes, I do agree with that. 2 caveats though:

      1. Just because a term is money term, doesn't mean it's competitive. That's the entire point of niche reseach... I'm sure there are still some keywords/phrases around that are worth millions of monthly visitors and fantastic revenue. It's just a matter of finding those. So, in that respect, you're right until someone comes out and gives us a "golden keyword" as an example.
      I think there are no simple way to measure competition, I wonder how you do keyword research? There must be a way to quickly figure out the value / competition so that we can filter and pick the best keywords for our purpose...

      I guess you just need to analyze each and every keyword in details, how well each competitor site rank for every keywords... what is the backlinks of each competitor, is it High PR or low PR, and finally analyze the site structure of top 10 competitors...

      or is there a simpler way?


      Originally Posted by LookItsMeTerryG View Post

      2. While you may be able to make 7 figures from that keyword, most of us SEO guys wouldn't be able to. We aren't in that line of business and don't have the infrastructure or expertise to be able to actually provide the services for that term. I'm sure there are some big time law/medicine related queries that have the intent of hiring an expert in that space, but I wouldn't be able to directly monetize that either. So, it's not exactly compensation for "me".
      Why not? Just find a profitable keywords and sell stuff or services? Build your business infrastructure, create your own web properties and sell stuff!

      Business consulting is not a bad business... you should be able to make some great money too.
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      • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
        Originally Posted by kkchoon View Post


        I think there are no simple way to measure competition, I wonder how you do keyword research? There must be a way to quickly figure out the value / competition so that we can filter and pick the best keywords for our purpose...

        I guess you just need to analyze each and every keyword in details, how well each competitor site rank for every keywords... what is the backlinks of each competitor, is it High PR or low PR, and finally analyze the site structure of top 10 competitors...

        or is there a simpler way?
        Yeah, let's say a client called me today and wanted to rank for "widgets".

        Here's my initial thought process in terms of competition:

        1. Look at the top 10 sites, are they sub pages or root domains? Are they brands I recognize?
        2. Look at the age of those 10 sites. What is the average age?
        3. Look at their backlinks. Use MajesticSEO or similar to see backlink quantity and growth over time. Good for figuring out how aggressive the competitors are.
        4. What type of links is this property acquiring? 80% blog comments? Are all of the links from the same few sites? Is the competitor actively, obviously buying link placements? This helps me gauge the relative amount of trust and authority the site has in Google and how robust their linking efforts are. Are they getting very high quality links from universities and professional organizations... wall street journal etc?
        5. What type of social media/networking penetration do these competitors have? Is there a lot of brand buzz or brand related queries?
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  • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
    Wait, I just looked, where do you see him under a different username impersonating a newbie?
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  • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
    How do you know mac and NTN are the same person? I looked in my thread and both profiles and saw no indication of that. I dont' even think it really matters in the long run, I'm not selling anything, neither is he. There's nothing to be gained here by doing so.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
    Anyway, this is not even an SEO methodology debate. Let's get back on track.

    I really have to go now, but I'll be back later.
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  • Profile picture of the author Universal_Soul
    and I think you both guys Terry and Mac should share your secrets with me, as I'm a good man and a lot of people would be happier thanks to the goods I sell..... The more the better I'd say.
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    • Profile picture of the author LookItsMeTerryG
      Originally Posted by Universal_Soul View Post

      and I think you both guys Terry and Mac should share your secrets with me, as I'm a good man and a lot of people would be happier thanks to the goods I sell..... The more the better I'd say.
      Hey man, I never claimed to have any secrets! I'd be glad to help you out though, I'm available via phone or msn. Just pm me your info.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rina Fanous
    Daniel, I find your post very inspirational after learning that it took you only 1yr and 3 months to get that kind of traffic or rather that successful at seo.

    My question is where did you learn your seo? I'm assuming it was a combination of many things but what was your main education?

    Rina
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  • Profile picture of the author MustafaKamal
    I like your idea choon!

    I find it very cost efficient and a foresight investment worth killing the time for.

    At the same time, I have to agree on organic search as it is indeed a wise method to actually get traffic in the long run.

    Kudos to SEO!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Well you called it. Wish Macfreddie would have been able to stick around. As a newbie on this forum I had my pen and paper out on how he was going to dominate number one in 72 hours. Oh well back to fudging around without his "secret".
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  • Profile picture of the author ipenema
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Avidpoet
      Originally Posted by ipenema View Post

      I dont think there algorythm is as scary as they like us to believe its just to many pages out there to keep a tight hold of unless you got Bigfoot sized footprints for them to follow.
      Must be an echo in here lol I said the same thing in post #5 thanks for posting it again I think
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  • Profile picture of the author sree94
    I will say this much... it is very hard to go back to doing SEO after PPC

    The reason? Traffic and sales come SOOOO much faster with PPC
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  • Profile picture of the author Buhry
    Must say I'm impressed and inspired by your success in ranking for business consulting, Daniel. According to Market Samurai you are currently number 2! Do you have any product aside from the 10 commandments of seo, the newbie product you are offering for free, and the consulting? Like some tactics for link building for achieving these high rankings? I would be willing to pay quite a bit to know that... But not 10 grand at the moment! XD
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  • Profile picture of the author valiantbearded
    Daniel Awesome. Should I tip my hat to you, when you find a page one rankings in such a short period of time, and so the word "money".
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  • Profile picture of the author zoltancorleone
    I agree with what I have said here. It's funny, sad way, I wasted thousands of dollars in spite of PPC to do thorough keyword research and monitoring and testing constraints. I have made much more with SEO. It seems that it is difficult to do SEO - it's not ... It's a waste of time only. I take my time and rather than do it right 'from a look at those disgusting signs Adwords LG.

    Wow! What a wonderful arrangement. Yes - I suppose certainly a 'must have someone if I saw your site next to IBM and Entrepreneur magazine. I think it would be 'social proof' at its best.
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  • Of course organic SEO is better than PPC. We all know that. But how many people can make good income from organic SEO? With PPC, you can generate more than 20,000 targeted traffic to your site in a day. How you do that with organic SEO? Of course that is not possible. Everything has benefits and limitations. You still need PPC if you want to make money online.
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  • Profile picture of the author achong
    Organic SEO is good for long run. we do not need pay anything. The problem is need word hard to get it.
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  • Profile picture of the author GrowTallerNiche
    I was going to post my opinion but it would seem stupid after all the experts have posted already.

    PPC can go to places SEO can't like on sites. You can also do image PPC ads.
    PPC can double up with SEO helping you to further dominate the search engine results.

    With SEO you can afford to get "crappy" traffic that doesn't convert.
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  • Profile picture of the author frankconner
    SEO is an excellent way to generate more traffic without paying anything. SEO (Search Engine) is not instant gratification. If you are not the kind of person willing to be patient and wait for your SEO campaign, you can open a PPC account to generate more traffic from a different audience. It will cost a little money, but if you have the budget, it is worth the investment.
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  • Profile picture of the author rahulbatra
    Yes you are correct that organic SEO is better than PPC in terms of everything and its good to read all these discussions and be a part of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author junkdna
    Originally Posted by Daniel Molano View Post

    I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

    But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

    Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

    1. The leads generated by SEO are 'hotter'.

    A lot of people know that PPC is paid advertising.

    Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

    So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

    2. SEO has extremely low costs.

    You might want to outsource some stuff or hire an SEO service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free. It would be time consuming but worth it.

    Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to even $50 per click, that's insane.

    3. Authority Value.

    A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

    The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

    Conclusion


    The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

    However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

    Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

    Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

    My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

    What would someone believe when they see your site there?

    "Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".


    The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

    Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

    What are your thoughts?
    Huge problem with SEO is that you can only focus on few keywords, while with PPC you can go for all of them.

    Another problem with SEO is that you have to keep pumping, otherwise your position on Google will decay.
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  • Profile picture of the author marklucas8
    Yep, deplorably the only thing about SEO is that it takes time to carry out sometimes as well as you need to have a SEO friendly site.
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  • Profile picture of the author princeambrose12
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    Daniel impressive. I tip my hat to you, after seeing the page of a ranking in as little as a keyword like "money."
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  • Profile picture of the author brucebrushwood22
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  • Profile picture of the author Aki Fagno
    Excellent post you have there dude.I really enjoyed reading it. I have learned a lot. Great!
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    • Profile picture of the author sree94
      SEO beats PPC if you are in the number one position of Google. If not, good luck

      I got my site to #2 in Google, right behind the merchant for the keyword I am targeting. And my traffic is nowhere near where it was when I did PPC. I also noticed on Compete.com that while the merchant site does get 40% of traffic, a PPC ad that is at the top of the page is getting the second most amount of traffic

      Granted, getting ranked very high in the organic listings costs much less than PPC, but unless you are in the top spot, I would not expect a gold shower of traffic
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  • Profile picture of the author Ideaswise
    I read a couple of years ago that someone from Google actually admitted that for every one person who clicks on a ppc ad, about four click on a natural listing.
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    • PPC Advantages;
      1. IF APPROVED (big if) the traffic is instant
      2. Easier to get exposure on high traffic keywords
      PPC DIS-Advantages;
      1. Expensive
      2. Exposure on specific search engines (if they approve your ad)
      3. Can be taken from you ANY time they feel like it
      Organic, natural traffic is by far the best;
      1. All traffic is free
      2. No-one can ever take away your traffic if you are white hat
      3. Exposure in ALL search engines
      4. Less time wasted on campaigns and more time on content
      Our small company stopped using PPC last year, and we made less money for 6 months until the natural traffic started to make up for it. Now we are making more money than ever before with natural. Last month we made $7,500 and change from Adsense alone, and last year the same month we only made a profit of $6,200 in Adsense.

      Stick with the naturals and be patient.
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  • Profile picture of the author App Developers
    I have to say thanks for the post. I totally agree!
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  • Profile picture of the author JoshTara
    Not that my 2 cents is worth a whole lot. But for as long as I can remember I've always avoided clicking the sponsored links, on search engines at least. But I have clicked on the facebook PPC adds once in a while.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    To get to your position without paying is always the best thing. The major problem with PPC is the bounce rate, as they know it's paid, so they come on and if they don't like it they head off pretty quickly
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  • Profile picture of the author ziram
    Most of the people go to search engine result than the ads like what PPC is.
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  • Profile picture of the author raven2424
    seo is free if you do it your self and also its long term once your there of course! great tips on showing why seo is so awesome
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  • Profile picture of the author dark witness
    All I can say is this has been a great debate.

    Dan, I take my hat off to you and the results you have got in the space of time you have been marketing.

    I have been into this getting onto two years and only really got into seo for about a year now. If I had the money I would join your program, but still sharing info on the forum like this and also seeing some of the more experienced guys drop in with their own opinions and information is very helpful and inspiring.

    great post.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattprince789
    Pay Per Click is considered a strong traffic generator, i.e. a tool that will drive traffic to the advertizers' sites. Research has shown that on the average search results page, over 80% of searchers will click on the organic search results, with the remainder clicking on PPC ads.
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  • Profile picture of the author derecksmith262
    Google only makes there living on the PPC side so they believe that Google puts that fog out there scaring SEO Marketers into spending money on the PPC side.
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  • Profile picture of the author sackboy127
    I personally never click on paid links, only on organic searh results, and I guess there are many others who usually do the same.

    The word "ad" gives me the notion that someone'll try to sell me something even though I'm only looking for information. It's another question that I might end up buying something from the site.
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  • Profile picture of the author madh2h
    As per a reputable New York website development firm, money is still being poured into PPC advertising, but organic search engine optimization is showing more promising results.
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  • Profile picture of the author alvinchua91
    `SEO is definitely good, but takes time, so I guess we should make use of PPC, while working on SEO in the background until it overtakes PPC, then there wouldn't be much need to dwell on PPC anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author searchnology
    I think both SEO and PPC are good but if I HAD to make a choice I would select PPC....Why?

    1. As you mentioned already, SPEED of implementation

    2. Control of COSTS via budgets

    3. Control of TARGETING via types of keyword match types and geography

    4. Control of VOLUME via number of keywords, bids and ad copy

    5. Easy to test and OPTIMIZE 2-5 above

    SEO doesn't give you all of those options...and you are never guaranteed results for the investment put into it.

    My 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author Hansons
    There is no need to test as well, Google Adwords keyword tool gives you reliable information, and with SEO once you optimize keywords it goes longer...
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