SEO vs Paid Traffic - Why do people continue to chase the rabbit? | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

6 years ago

People often think SEO is the "low hanging fruit" because it is "free traffic" when in actuality SEO is the bright shiny apple at the very top of the tree and very few people are able to harvest those effectively. Most people stand under the tree with a bucket hoping the apples will just fall in. They usually don't.

The reason people chase it still is margin. If you have a $40 average cart then you simply can't afford to pay $1 per click. Likewise if you search for "DUI lawyer los angeles" and click the #1 ad then you have just parted an LA lawyer from $150-$300 of his ad spend. Organic traffic is big bucks in the right niches.

If you are good at SEO there is a lot of money to be made in it. I make mid six figures as an in-house SEO in online retail. I am very good at getting the bright shiny apple at the top of the tree, but it takes a ton of effort to do it.

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Roger Rowe 6 years ago

I agree with everything you said.

However there are other considerations.

Things have changed in the last 2-3 years, including the competition for that low hanging fruit + the new machine learning systems Google has put in place.

And the idea that anyone new can actually get a ranking for an attorney keyword these days is sure to bring frustration and probably months of work.

Months.

I know because I have some of those rankings.

I have decided that it's no longer scalable due to many factors, for a one man shop.

There is more low hanging fruit in the ppc world than I have ever seen at this point.

The point of my questions are this:

Is everyone making an informed decision to go for SEO when ppc is so easy these days?

Or are they chasing the next shiny shiny because someone said they could get free traffic.

No one's time is free, thus is no such thing.

Thanks for getting the conversation going.
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elegantwebdesign

6 years ago

My take is: SEO is Organic & nothing can beat organic!

Agreed for some keywords, a PPC campaign might be much simpler, but, on the long run, you NEED organic traffic to drive you forward. PPC alone wont cut it, especially when the hot click rates are over the top.

But, remember, there is no point in spending big bucks going full on for Organic. Organic growth should be as it sounds, Organic. So, just make sure you do your bit of work everyday, regularly, and Organic will work for you. You need to set the expectations right.

P.S: Are we allowed to put links here? I took the benefit of the doubt.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

I would rather you remove the link.

And I have a question for you.

You said PPC alone won't cut it.

Do you have any data to back that up?

The people I know who make 7 figures (aside from software creators) use only PPC.

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elegantwebdesign

6 years ago

Originally Posted by Roger Rowe

I would rather you remove the link.

And I have a question for you.

You said PPC alone won't cut it.

Do you have any data to back that up?

The people I know who make 7 figures (aside from software creators) use only PPC.

The only data to prove it is: try stopping PPC. Will your rankings hold?

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by elegantwebdesign

The only data to prove it is: try stopping PPC. Will your rankings hold?

PPC runs on automatic pilot.

I do not have to do anything to get traffic once the campaign is set up and profitable.

Why would I stop it?

You have work on SEO continually, there is no "set it and forget" BS because it is something you have to work at constantly with no guarantee of traffic.

Not to mention all the pitfalls like Google penalties, etc.

Once you set PPC campaigns they keep running unattended, making money for you on auto pilot.

Why would anyone in their right mind turn off a profitable PPC campaign?

That makes zero sense.

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MikeFriedman

6 years ago

Originally Posted by Roger Rowe

PPC runs on automatic pilot.

I do not have to do anything to get traffic once the campaign is set up and profitable.

Why would I stop it?

You have work on SEO continually, there is no "set it and forget" BS because it is something you have to work at constantly with no guarantee of traffic.

Not to mention all the pitfalls like Google penalties, etc.

Once you set PPC campaigns they keep running unattended, making money for you on auto pilot.

Why would anyone in their right mind turn off a profitable PPC campaign?

That makes zero sense.

I would never argue PPC versus SEO. I think both should be used by anyone looking for search traffic.

That being said, to say that PPC is set it and forget it is just not true. There is still a lot of monitoring and tweaking going on for any good PPC campaign. There will always be new competitors moving in and out of the market.

You can say that the goalposts keep getting moved by Google when it comes to SEO (which is not entirely true either - quality links and text have ranked pages for years just fine), but the same is true with AdWords. Look at the insane change Google announced 2 weeks ago about how they are expanding their definition of close variants for exact match keywords.

That alone could cause money to go leaping out of wallets on some campaigns if they are not watching them closely as this change is implemented.

I manage AdWords campaigns with monthly budgets between $25-50k. Those are far more work than any SEO campaign I have ever worked on.

Like I said, I think anyone looking for search traffic should be using both PPC and SEO, but I just completely disagree that PPC offers some magical set it and forget it, completely hands free formula.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

I would never argue PPC versus SEO. I think both should be used by anyone looking for search traffic.

That being said, to say that PPC is set it and forget it is just not true. There is still a lot of monitoring and tweaking going on for any good PPC campaign. There will always be new competitors moving in and out of the market.

You can say that the goalposts keep getting moved by Google when it comes to SEO (which is not entirely true either - quality links and text have ranked pages for years just fine), but the same is true with AdWords. Look at the insane change Google announced 2 weeks ago about how they are expanding their definition of close variants for exact match keywords.

That alone could cause money to go leaping out of wallets on some campaigns if they are not watching them closely as this change is implemented.

I manage AdWords campaigns with monthly budgets between $25-50k. Those are far more work than any SEO campaign I have ever worked on.

Like I said, I think anyone looking for search traffic should be using both PPC and SEO, but I just completely disagree that PPC offers some magical set it and forget it, completely hands free formula.

No one said anything about magic.

And I am not talking in absolutes either.

These things are being said in the context of common sense.

You may manage $50K monthly Adwords budget for a client, but most affiliate marketers are never going to get to that point.

Unless they have decided to scale and have help from somewhere.

Most campaigns for an affiliate can be monitored in less than 10 minutes per day.

I know because that is what it takes my VA's that have been trained in doing things I know that work.

PPC is like a vending machine; put your quarter in get your crackers out.

Simply monitor your stats everyday to make sure nothing is getting really out of whack.

SEO is is, and never has been that simple.

SEO is never over after 10 minutes of work per day because:

You have learn what seo today
You have to learn what seo is going to be tomorrow
You have to monitor seo to see daily fluctuations most people don;t even know about
You are at risk (and worry) of penalties
You then must find solutions for penalties
You then wait MONTHS to find out if you remedy worked
If you remedy did not work, back to the drawing board.

This is in no way easier or more profitable than PPC and anyone who has been in the game for more than a years knows it.

As for the change in close variants, the remedy is easy; change your campaign to exact match and 90% of the issues caused by the change will be avoided.

Changing SEO methods on 20-50 websites takes months.

My PPC remedy took 1 day.

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MikeFriedman

6 years ago

Originally Posted by Roger Rowe

As for the change in close variants, the remedy is easy; change your campaign to exact match and 90% of the issues caused by the change will be avoided.

Changing SEO methods on 20-50 websites takes months.

My PPC remedy took 1 day.

The change in close variants if FOR exact match campaigns, so changing it to exact match doesn't solve the issue.

Changing SEO methods is never necessary unless you are doing shitty SEO and trying to stay ahead of Google tracking you down. If you are any good at it, there really is not anything to change.

Anyhow, I have been running PPC campaigns since back when you could run campaigns in AdWords that pointed directly to an affiliate link. I know how it works on both small and large scales. I'm not saying PPC doesn't have merits. I just thinking that telling people they can setup a campaign in 10 minutes, monitor it for 10 minutes a day, and make money hand over fist is a little misleading and not the results that most people are going to have.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

The change in close variants if FOR exact match campaigns, so changing it to exact match doesn't solve the issue.

Yes, I am aware.

But the technique still applies.

Move everything to exact match and then trust in the new algorithm.

Google is making a bigchange to exact match keyword targeting in AdWords

The change reflects Googles increasing confidence in its machine learning capabilities in this case, to determine when queries have the same meaning as the exact match keywords in an advertisers account. Its one more area in which advertisers are being told to trust the algorithms to take over.

Changing SEO methods is never necessary unless you are doing shitty SEO and trying to stay ahead of Google tracking you down. If you are any good at it, there really is not anything to change.

Not true.

Back linking techniques come and go.

Changes in the algorithm change emphansis on differnt elements of a website.

Websites/Web pages constatntly fluctuate.

You are speaking in absolutes when you nothing changes in SEO.

It's pure bull excrement.

Anyhow, I have been running PPC campaigns since back when you could run campaigns in AdWords that pointed directly to an affiliate link. I know how it works on both small and large scales. I'm not saying PPC doesn't have merits. I just thinking that telling people they can setup a campaign in 10 minutes, monitor it for 10 minutes a day, and make money hand over fist is a little misleading and not the results that most people are going to have.

I never said anything about making money hand over fist and that is your interpretation.

Everyone's is different but you can continue to fib to yourself if you like.

If you think a campaign can not be set up in 10 minutes, you don;t know as much as you would have everyone believe.

Bing Ads Blaster-Software Demo and Accounts...

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MikeFriedman

6 years ago

It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing.

The smartest thing is to do both in most cases.

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promike 6 years ago

Both is good
don't forget the traffic gives you importance for the ranking
but what matter is how long does the traffic stay on your site;
if they stop 15 sec and leave it does not matter is the long run.
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dave_hermansen

6 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing.

The smartest thing is to do both in most cases.

Mike is right. Paid advertising brings in revenue while you work on SEO. In many niches, if you rely solely on paid advertising, your growth stops because there are only so many paid channels that are productive.

Obviously if you are in the type of niche where there are opportunities for repeat business, you can continue to grow with paid advertising, alone, but not at the growth rate you would have with continued increases in organic traffic.

If you are in a "one-off" niche, where customers buy once and never again (you sell refrigerators to consumers, for instance), you HAVE TO work on SEO in order for your business to show month over month growth.

Every new site we start begins with paid advertising and that advertising doesn't really change over the lifetime of a website. What DOES change is that our pages gradually start ranking higher and for more keyword phrases which brings more organic traffic (at no cost) and more business on top of what paid advertising brings.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by dave_hermansen

Mike is right. Paid advertising brings on revenue while you work on SEO. In many niches, if you rely solely on paid advertising, your growth stops because there are only so many paid channels that are productive.

Obviously if you are in the type of niche where there are opportunities for repeat business, you can continue to grow with paid advertising, alone, but not at the growth rate you would have with continued increases in organic traffic.

If you are in a "one-off" niche, where customers buy once and never again (you sell refrigerators to consumers, for instance), you HAVE TO work on SEO in order for your business to show month over month growth.

Every new site we start begins with paid advertising and that advertising doesn't really change over the lifetime of a website. What DOES change is that our pages gradually start ranking higher and for more keyword phrases which brings more organic traffic (at no cost) and more business on top of what paid advertising brings.

Another poster that refused to read the thread.

Awesome.

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dave_hermansen 6 years ago

Originally Posted by Roger Rowe

Another poster that refused to read the thread.

Awesome.

Of course I read the thread. Perhaps you would be wise to not criticize other people's words and, instead, take a look at the words you wrote to see if there just might be a reason people don't get whatever it is you were trying to say.

The way you worded it, you made it sound like people were wasting their time with SEO and that they could spend that time/money more wisely by doing paid advertising only. At some point in time, you have done all you can with paid advertising. Then what? Do you just say "that's as good as it can get" and move onto the next half-done project?

If that isn't what you wanted to convey, maybe you should take a look at your words. If that was what you were trying to say, then don't be surprised when some people disagree with you. That's what happens when people state opinions.

Did you actually read what I said or did you start reacting before you let the words sink in? Mine was about actually growing a website's business - not going for the quick money and stopping there.

For many, many, many people here, you're right. They'll never be successful with SEO because they still think blog commenting, forum links, directories and spun article content will get them ranked well. For others who know how to do SEO and who actually want to see their websites grow over time, PPC AND SEO is the way to go.

I know plenty of people who only advertise and say "the heck with SEO". They build site after site and make a few hundred dollars per month with each one. I know other people in those same niches who are making a few thousand dollars per month but took a long time to get there (although, they, too, started making a few hundred per month from the outset with paid advertising).

You can build a bunch of websites that don't live up to their true potential or you can build a couple of sites that do and make the same money with either approach. Neither approach is wrong - especially if you really know how to do SEO. If you ever want to sell your website for a lump sum of cash, I know it is easier selling one "gold mine" website that gets most of its traffic organically than it is to sell ten mediocre ones that rely exclusively on paid advertising.
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battlex

6 years ago

SEO is marketing tools that have the highest ROI.
i used to spend 200$ for a site and get arround 200$ / months (100%/month).
it's like 1200% / years.

any marketing tools that can beat that?

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

I wonder how many respondents are full time compared to part time.

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codeboss

6 years ago

Im full time and work with SEO and PPC for my ecomm business.
SEO is critical to businesses and can bring in huge income without the high costs of PPC. They BOTH bring in income, it is optimal to have both. Why not!
On top of that, if I didnt have SEO, I wouldve been out of business as like you said, things are always changing. One day Google PPC decided not to allow my type of product on there ads or just didnt like my website and they dont tell you much when they suspend you. I was suddenly kicked off PPC completely.
I THOUGHT thats the end of my business but to my surprise sales kept coming in strong casue I was ranked #1 in SEO for my niche keyword.

SEO not only saved my business and all that ad was "free", but it adds to your income if you can combine it both with PPC.

I now have a seperate product in PPC which is related to the first, so the target audience is the exact same except Google PPC is ok with the 2nd product. So when users come to see that, I do a variety of methods to introduce them to the 2nd product and now Im back in business with PPC.

IMO, it is wise to "chase the rabit" of SEO and should be a priority for a long term investment of any site you want to keep round forever.

Also, now I have expanded my SEO from direct searches to low hanging fruits of long tail keywords by publishing blogs and we now get over 24,000 visitors to the site per month as of last month (April 2017). Imaging paying PPC for 24,000 visitors!!!

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by codeboss

Im full time and work with SEO and PPC for my ecomm business.
SEO is critical to businesses and can bring in huge income without the high costs of PPC. They BOTH bring in income, it is optimal to have both. Why not!
On top of that, if I didnt have SEO, I wouldve been out of business as like you said, things are always changing. One day Google PPC decided not to allow my type of product on there ads or just didnt like my website and they dont tell you much when they suspend you. I was suddenly kicked off PPC completely.
I THOUGHT thats the end of my business but to my surprise sales kept coming in strong casue I was ranked #1 in SEO for my niche keyword.

SEO not only saved my business and all that ad was "free", but it adds to your income if you can combine it both with PPC.

I now have a seperate product in PPC which is related to the first, so the target audience is the exact same except Google PPC is ok with the 2nd product. So when users come to see that, I do a variety of methods to introduce them to the 2nd product and now Im back in business with PPC.

IMO, it is wise to "chase the rabit" of SEO and should be a priority for a long term investment of any site you want to keep round forever.

Also, now I have expanded my SEO from direct searches to low hanging fruits of long tail keywords by publishing blogs and we now get over 24,000 visitors to the site per month as of last month (April 2017). Imaging paying PPC for 24,000 visitors!!!

How much does SEO cost?

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seomental

6 years ago

you always find most of the buying intentional on Google.so google is the boss means SEO is the boss but it not free.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by seomental

you always find most of the buying intentional on Google.so google is the boss means SEO is the boss but it not free.

I suggest you read this article and rethink your position.

This is from last year and these changes have already been implemented.

Mobile first is why SEO will become more expensive and time consuming, and PPC will become better for actually making sales.

How does this impact organic search?
Now that paid search ads are taking up more organic real estate, click-through rates for organic search listings -- especially in the first two positions -- will probably decrease because the organic results have been pushed farther down the page. Indeed, on mobile, we were already seeing SERPs where no organic listings appeared above the fold.

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nowservingpixels

6 years ago

There's other benefits to SEO traffic besides it being free. I could shut my computer off and do nothing for the next month and when I came back my inbox would be full of leads and I'd still have sold products. With PPC, it goes as you go. If the stream of money you're funneling in stops, so does the entire operation.

That said, there's benefits to both, and I do use PPC myself in addition to SEO. I just think the benefits of SEO traffic are certainly worth pursuing.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by nowservingpixels

There's other benefits to SEO traffic besides it being free.

SEO is not free.

That is my point.

I could shut my computer off and do nothing for the next month and when I came back my inbox would be full of leads and I'd still have sold products. With PPC, it goes as you go. If the stream of money you're funneling in stops, so does the entire operation.

That said, there's benefits to both, and I do use PPC myself in addition to SEO. I just think the benefits of SEO traffic are certainly worth pursuing.

You will never be able to scale your business with SEO.

That is the other point.

And who cares if you can shut it off and come back a month later?

I can do 10 minutes of work everyday to make sure my PPC is flowing and growing.

Way past anything SEO could ever do for you.

I contend SEO is indeed more expensive than SEO.

I had over 5000 websites at one point.

SEO is definitely not free, nor is it cheaper than PPC.

And PPC is faster targeted traffic in any case.

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codeboss

6 years ago

I dont think people are saying just use SEO, I think everyones saying SEO is worthy in addition to PPC and has its own advantages. PPC can kick you off anytime while SEO will remain as well is another one. You need both.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by codeboss

I dont think people are saying just use SEO, I think everyones saying SEO is worthy in addition to PPC and has its own advantages. PPC can kick you off anytime while SEO will remain as well is another one. You need both.

I have had hundreds of sites realized or de-indexed, so I am not why you would say SEO'd sires remain.

Sites do get de-indexed, right?

lol

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nowservingpixels

6 years ago

SEO is not free.

That is my point.

...yet it still has benefits that make it worth pursuing, which was my point. There is value in doing work once that pays off over and over again.

The premise of your thread is kind of silly. Both marketing methods have benefits to offer, and they're not mutually exclusive. I really don't see the point in being dogmatic about one over the other.

And who cares if you can shut it off and come back a month later?

I do. It means that I have resources working for me and driving results while I'm busy working and driving results. Do you not see the value in that?

I can do 10 minutes of work everyday to make sure my PPC is flowing and growing.

I can do that same 10 minutes of work as well and drive the same results, all while the SEO work that I already did is driving additional results simultaneously. Doing PPC doesn't mean you can't also work on SEO, and vice versa.

Like I said, they both have benefits, and you make a lot of great points, but you're not going to convince me that the rewards of SEO are not worth pursuing. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but it's working for me and it can work for others as well if executed properly.

I had over 5000 websites at one point.

I find that very hard to believe.

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by nowservingpixels

...yet it still has benefits that make it worth pursuing, which was my point. There is value in doing work once that pays off over and over again.

The premise of your thread is kind of silly. Both marketing methods have benefits to offer, and they're not mutually exclusive. I really don't see the point in being dogmatic about one over the other.

I do. It means that I have resources working for me and driving results while I'm busy working and driving results. Do you not see the value in that?

I can do that same 10 minutes of work as well and drive the same results, all while the SEO work that I already did is driving additional results simultaneously. Doing PPC doesn't mean you can't also work on SEO, and vice versa.

Like I said, they both have benefits, and you make a lot of great points, but you're not going to convince me that the rewards of SEO are not worth pursuing. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but it's working for me and it can work for others as well if executed properly.

I find that very hard to believe.

Holy cow.

Not really sure why that would be hard to believe.

I have been building autoblogs for 8 years.

It did work out for me just fine.

SEO got me to 6 figures (AS STATED IN THE THREAD ALREADY, WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY DID NOT RED).

You are not talking to a noob here.

Please read the entire thread.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Check my WSO's to find my coaching and software offers from years back.

WF is is awesome.

Full of people who have no clue.

THE FREAKIN POINT IS THAT SEO IS NOT FREE!

READ THE THREAD.

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codeboss 6 years ago

If your serious about keeping a website for long term, definitely worth pursuing!
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- Roger Rowe 6 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by codeboss
  
  If your serious about keeping a website for long term, definitely worth pursuing!
  
  Do you mean to speak in absolute that there is no way to have a long term website with only PPC?
  
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DABK

6 years ago

A very long thread for no good reason. People think SEO is free because they do not think accurately or they do not value their time. More precisely, they think like this: If no money leaves my pocket/my bank account, it's free.

And they think that regardless of the time involved in learning how to do SEO and actually doing SEO.

For some of them, it may be the cheaper way, therefore, the way to go - because of skills. Most have no clue as they have never tried anything beyond low-level link-building, like blog commenting.

Many live in countries where $100 a month is great income, and, if they get anything close to it through 'free' SEO, they have neither the motivation nor the curiosity to try anything else.

Which does not stop many of them from going around singing praising to blog-commenting, content is king, article marketing is the best and so on.

You're right, but your tone and 'examples' rubbed many the wrong way and got the discussion side-tracked. But you're right, SEO is not free. Often/for many, it's not only not free but it is expensive, or more expensive than other methods. But many lack understanding, curiosity, motivation, or the courage to part with a few dollars upfront. (Or, maybe, a lot... can take a few hundred to tweak an adwords campaign).

A while back, there was a thread about Google sending regular mail offers to people and great marketing methods... The point some made: if direct mail did not work, Google (the very successful business Google) wouldn't be using it.

What many in that thread seemed to have understood: Ain't Google quaint. wasting money on offline marketing when it's the king of online?

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Roger Rowe

6 years ago

Originally Posted by DABK

A very long thread for no good reason. People think SEO is free because they do not think accurately or they do not value their time. More precisely, they think like this: If no money leaves my pocket/my bank account, it's free.

And they think that regardless of the time involved in learning how to do SEO and actually doing SEO.

For some of them, it may be the cheaper way, therefore, the way to go - because of skills. Most have no clue as they have never tried anything beyond low-level link-building, like blog commenting.

Many live in countries where $100 a month is great income, and, if they get anything close to it through 'free' SEO, they have neither the motivation nor the curiosity to try anything else.

Which does not stop many of them from going around singing praising to blog-commenting, content is king, article marketing is the best and so on.

You're right, but your tone and 'examples' rubbed many the wrong way and got the discussion side-tracked. But you're right, SEO is not free. Often/for many, it's not only not free but it is expensive, or more expensive than other methods. But many lack understanding, curiosity, motivation, or the courage to part with a few dollars upfront. (Or, maybe, a lot... can take a few hundred to tweak an adwords campaign).

A while back, there was a thread about Google sending regular mail offers to people and great marketing methods... The point some made: if direct mail did not work, Google (the very successful business Google) wouldn't be using it.

What many in that thread seemed to have understood: Ain't Google quaint. wasting money on offline marketing when it's the king of online?

Finally, someone that gets it.

As for rubbing people the wrong, that was the intention for those who are building their post count and parroting what they heard other people say.

Sometimes people have to be shaken to realize they are wrong.

Nice and concise post.

Thanks for that.

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codeboss 6 years ago

Nobody is saying just do SEO without PPC. I dont think I see a single person saying that, their simply saying SEO is still worthy.

Using BOTH makes sense....

p.s. based on my google analytics, I got 22,000 users per month due to SEO.
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codeboss 6 years ago

Here are some good screen shots

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qu9cmqatikq6l9s/18765627_10158698756110537_2206702212098701962_n.j pg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6xpnit69mwroy1k/18767946_10158699041475537_6316016806450723205_n.j pg?dl=0
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codeboss 6 years ago

I received 22,000 users from SEO last month based on google analytics... I also use PPC. Not sure using SEO is "realizing their wrong" lol
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maudify

6 years ago

Why does it have to be a "versus" scenario? Because to be fair, doesn't it depend on a case-to-case basis?

For brand new sites, I am getting it traffic as fast as possible so PPC does come into play and we do run SEO campaigns to dominate in organic KW's.

Then we like taking over the major first page "real estate" with our organic KWs and PPC those KWs too.

Thanks

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SEO vs Paid Traffic - Why do people continue to chase the rabbit?

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