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Can someone please review the criteria I use to determine keyword phrase value?

by carlos123
11 replies
  • SEO
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I am presently using the following criteria to help me determine keyword phrase value and would appreciate any input anyone might have on the relative value of one criteria to another or any other observations about my criteria at all.

The following are the criteria I am presently using:

LSV - local search volume from the Adwords Keyword Tool set to Phrase match.

Competition - the number of web sites that show up when doing a plain Google search for the keyword phrase (without quotes since searchers search that way).

ECPC - Estimated CPC again from the Adwords Keyword Tool.

Page Rank of the top 3 sites that show up (I don't count local business listings to determine my 3 top sites for a given keyword phrase search).

Generally speaking I don't pay attention to any sites that have more than 100,000 sites for Competition. 50,000 or less is what I tend to look for. I realize that this Competition value if not absolutely indicative of true competition but I am using it to quickly help me sort through to the best keyword phrases.

I go for an ECPC for a given keyword phrase of at least $2 unless the number of searches is high and the PR ranking of the top 3 sites is low in which case I might consider a lower ECPC value on the premise that I will get more visitors which should offset the lowered ECPC value.

Generally I don't consider any keyword phrase that is under $1 CPC and under 3000 searches per month. I focus mostly on ECPC's of $2 and above figuring that Adsense ads will return half of that per click on average.

If a keyword phrase has a good spread in the Adword Keyword Tool with respect to gradually going down from a high number of searches I consider that as an indication that the category to which it applies has general interest sufficient to bring me a fair number of less specific but still relevant traffic from phrases not directly related to the keyword phrase I am looking at.

If a keyword phrase has poor spread it might be too specific for me to focus on it unless other factors are all favorable.

Anyway that is the criteria I am presently using.

In a spreadsheet I put...

Keyword Phrases LSV Competition ECPC PR Page1 PR Page2 PR Page3

across the top and fill in the blanks. But if the Competition is too high I don't bother with the other figures and just go to the next one.

Again any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Carlos
#criteria #determine #keyword #phrase #review
  • Profile picture of the author michael_nguyen
    Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post

    I am presently using the following criteria to help me determine keyword phrase value and would appreciate any input anyone might have on the relative value of one criteria to another or any other observations about my criteria at all.
    Let me try

    The following are the criteria I am presently using:

    LSV - local search volume from the Adwords Keyword Tool set to Phrase match.
    Set to exact match instead. Reason... I have have a keyword that ranks number 1 and I just done a test eg "Where can I buy (insert keyword)"

    Obviously no quotes or brackets. Just the keyword itself, my site is number 1. If I add the "where can I buy.....(keyword)"...which is a phrase match....my site now becomes number 2. Now depending on what your keyword it is, there's no guarantee you'll hit number 1. Google might say phrase has 5000 searches, but exact only has 200. Assuming this is the case you wouldn't be too happy. Check the exact numbers are high.

    Competition - the number of web sites that show up when doing a plain Google search for the keyword phrase (without quotes since searchers search that way).
    Your top 10 is the competition. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I suppose I'm but just trust me on this. See my sig.

    ECPC - Estimated CPC again from the Adwords Keyword Tool.

    Page Rank of the top 3 sites that show up (I don't count local business listings to determine my 3 top sites for a given keyword phrase search).

    Generally speaking I don't pay attention to any sites that have more than 100,000 sites for Competition. 50,000 or less is what I tend to look for. I realize that this Competition value if not absolutely indicative of true competition but I am using it to quickly help me sort through to the best keyword phrases.
    You might be leaving money (keywords) on the table if you do it that way. Again your 10 ten is the comp

    I go for an ECPC for a given keyword phrase of at least $2 unless the number of searches is high and the PR ranking of the top 3 sites is low in which case I might consider a lower ECPC value on the premise that I will get more visitors which should offset the lowered ECPC value.

    Generally I don't consider any keyword phrase that is under $1 CPC and under 3000 searches per month. I focus mostly on ECPC's of $2 and above figuring that Adsense ads will return half of that per click on average.
    Focus on what that keyword can do for you if you're number 1. A low CPC doesnt mean you can't make money of it.

    If a keyword phrase has a good spread in the Adword Keyword Tool with respect to gradually going down from a high number of searches I consider that as an indication that the category to which it applies has general interest sufficient to bring me a fair number of less specific but still relevant traffic from phrases not directly related to the keyword phrase I am looking at.
    That is true but again use exact match and determine if its worth your while for 10-20 searches per month

    If a keyword phrase has poor spread it might be too specific for me to focus on it unless other factors are all favorable.
    Poor spread usually means not enough advertisers which most of the time means not enough searches

    Did that help

    Michael

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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

      Michael
      THANK YOU Michael! That is EXACTLY the kind of input I was looking for. Specific with short explanations as to why or why not.

      I will post more of my thoughts shortly after I have had a chance to re-read and think more about what you said. Not that I expect further input but any additional thoughts you might care to pass along would as always be much appreciated.

      Carlos
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Regarding setting the Google Keyword Tool to Phrase vs Exact Match.

      Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

      Set to exact match instead. Reason... I have have a keyword that ranks number 1 and I just done a test eg "Where can I buy (insert keyword)"

      Obviously no quotes or brackets. Just the keyword itself, my site is number 1. If I add the "where can I buy.....(keyword)"...which is a phrase match....my site now becomes number 2. Now depending on what your keyword it is, there's no guarantee you'll hit number 1. Google might say phrase has 5000 searches, but exact only has 200. Assuming this is the case you wouldn't be too happy. Check the exact numbers are high.
      Michael...the problem with setting to exact is that people don't search with quotes or using the exact phrase. They just enter in the phrase as is into Google. So if your site shows up for position 1 in such a search then it stands to reason that it will show up in position 1 for those who search for your phrase.

      Given that, it seems to make more sense that entering a phrase into Google with no quotes and setting the Keyword tool to use Phrase matching is a better measure of true competiveness.

      Because that is what will show up for users of Google who are searching on your phrase.

      Does that make sense? Any further thoughts on whether Exact or Phrase is better? Mark on this forum known as internetmarketer99 uses Phrase if I am not mistaken so there may not be a better one to use just different. Still...I have been reading lately that phrase is better for helping determine true competition and the value of a keyword.

      Carlos

      PS. The forum is really slow today for some reason. Slow as molasses .
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

      Your top 10 is the competition. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I suppose I'm but just trust me on this. See my sig.

      You might be leaving money (keywords) on the table if you do it that way. Again your 10 ten is the comp
      Absolutely Michael. There is and has never been any question in my mind that the top 10 are the real competition. No question.

      But as a general measure of the competiveness of one keyword phrase vs another it would seem that using the number of web sites that show up in Google when searching for a given phrase is valuable for quickly sifting between phrases that might be too competitive and those which might not be.

      My theory being that the top ten web sites showing up in a high number of total sites will tend to be SEO optimized and otherwise SEO sharp than the top 10 that show up for a phrase that has far less numbers of web sites showing up.

      It's just a real general barometer and certainly not definitive but as a general barometer of competiveness it can help me quickly wade through the moutains of keywords to narrow the list down.

      Yes...I am undoubtedly leaving money words behind but on the other hand the one's that I am ending up are much more probably good money words (if all other numbers are good) than not and it saves me a lot of time research wise given that I am doing it all manually at this point in time.

      I don't mean to deny the value of anything being shared with me. I just want to be clear on the logic behind my seeming madness and why I still think it's a valuable barometer to use.

      Any further thoughts?

      Carlos
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

      Focus on what that keyword can do for you if you're number 1. A low CPC doesnt mean you can't make money of it.
      Quite true Michael. A good point.

      May I ask what you would consider to be your bottom value for consideration in CPC and traffic per month?

      $1 CPC with 5,000 LSV?
      $.50 CPC with 5000 LSV?
      $.25 with 10,000 LSV?

      What figures would you consider to be too low for you to consider if all you had to go was the CPC and LSV values given out by the Google Keyword tool?

      I base everything on 50% of whatever figures I am getting and a reasonable expectation of 5% CTR. Is that about right?

      So for example if I see a 5000 LSV I figure I will get 2,500 in position 1. At 5% CTR that will return me 125 clicks per month. If the CPC is $1 at 50% that will return me 125 x .50 which is $62.50 a month. Too low for me to bother with. That's why I focus on at least $2 CPC's and traffic in the range of at least 3000 though my partner found what seems to be a really good one today.

      With 2900 searches, a CPC of over $10 per click, and only 58,000 web sites. Incidentally I taught my partner how to search for them as I do which greatly simplifies things so that anybody can search for good keywords and find them without taking into account the other stuff like backlinks and anchor quality, PR ranks, etc... I do that stuff. Works real well...so far.

      Carlos
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

      That is true but again use exact match and determine if its worth your while for 10-20 searches per month
      Michael did you mistype? Did you mean to say 10-20 searches per month? That seems awefully low to afford much profitability.

      Poor spread usually means not enough advertisers which most of the time means not enough searches
      Which goes back to my point of a low spread being an indication of a lack of general interest depth which might make building a web site that will pull in traffic from a variety of keyword phrases a bit difficult.

      Carlos
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  • Profile picture of the author HomeComputerGames
    I agree with Michael,
    especially about your competition being the 10 sites listed on the front page of Google.
    Those are the only ones you have to consider.
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  • Profile picture of the author michael_nguyen
    Michael...the problem with setting to exact is that people don't search with quotes or using the exact phrase. They just enter in the phrase as is into Google. So if your site shows up for position 1 in such a search then it stands to reason that it will show up in position 1 for those who search for your phrase.
    Ok this is a big problem in the warriorforum and even the big "gurus" make this mistake when they are selling their methods. Here goes...

    True that people dont search like this: [blue widgets] but when you set it to exact match, the only information you need to take away is the amount of people that search for it. If it says [blue widgets] 500 per month.

    It doesn't mean 500 searchers type in [blue widget], it means 500 searchers type in blue widget just as it is. Read up the Google documentation to understand the match types clearly. Someone here will confirm this.

    Given that, it seems to make more sense that entering a phrase into Google with no quotes and setting the Keyword tool to use Phrase matching is a better measure of true competiveness. Because that is what will show up for users of Google who are searching on your phrase.
    No this is wrong because you have 2 different results here . No quotes, which is the normal way to search and how your visitors will search will give you the true top 10. Put it this way, if you do a search in quotes and look at the top 10, Why do the same top 10 not all appear when you do the search without quotes? You see where I'm getting at?

    To be honest the phrase match type is kinda useless to me because and should be to you aswell because it essentially means searchers are adding words before and/or after the keyword. There's no telling you'll even get high rankings. Phrase match type: blue widgets 5000 per month

    This means you can have:

    fdsafdsa blue widgets
    gfdsh dsgsfa blue widgets gfdsgda
    iof blue widgets bhgdhgfs
    blue widgets gfgfdshtf

    Up to 5000 times and by using my example with my keyword which is number 1 in the last post, how can you possibly figure out what they are typing, where as if you exact match this will give you an exact number to work on and is more accurate. [/quote]

    Any further thoughts on whether Exact or Phrase is better? Mark on this forum known as internetmarketer99 uses Phrase if I am not mistaken so there may not be a better one to use just different. Still...I have been reading lately that phrase is better for helping determine true competition and the value of a keyword.
    I would say he's incorrect, he'll probably disagree but I make my arguments here. Exact match is better.


    Absolutely Michael. There is and has never been any question in my mind that the top 10 are the real competition. No question.
    But as a general measure of the competiveness of one keyword phrase vs another it would seem that using the number of web sites that show up in Google when searching for a given phrase is valuable for quickly sifting between phrases that might be too competitive and those which might not be.
    I can only advise on what I feel is a weak site. You see you need to have a little understanding and possibly ge

    My theory being that the top ten web sites showing up in a high number of total sites will tend to be SEO optimized and otherwise SEO sharp than the top 10 that show up for a phrase that has far less numbers of web sites showing up.
    YOu see it's not always the case. Top 10 should just mean to you the top 10 best results by google and those top 10 are sometimes the crappyiest (is that a word?) seo'ed site.

    Yes...I am undoubtedly leaving money words behind but on the other hand the one's that I am ending up are much more probably good money words (if all other numbers are good) than not and it saves me a lot of time research wise given that I am doing it all manually at this point in time.
    You might want to invest in MicroNicheFinder

    This help ?

    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author michael_nguyen
      Michael did you mistype? Did you mean to say 10-20 searches per month? That seems awefully low to afford much profitability.
      Not a mistype. You'll notice that the exact match type is smaller than phrase match. Which is why this is a better indication to see how many searchers. The last post I posted will you help understand better.

      Which goes back to my point of a low spread being an indication of a lack of general interest depth which might make building a web site that will pull in traffic from a variety of keyword phrases a bit difficult.
      Low search volume is bad, agreed, but if its targetted ?


      May I ask what you would consider to be your bottom value for consideration in CPC and traffic per month?

      $1 CPC with 5,000 LSV?
      $.50 CPC with 5000 LSV?
      $.25 with 10,000 LSV?

      What figures would you consider to be too low for you to consider if all you had to go was the CPC and LSV values given out by the Google Keyword tool?

      I base everything on 50% of whatever figures I am getting and a reasonable expectation of 5% CTR. Is that about right?

      So for example if I see a 5000 LSV I figure I will get 2,500 in position 1. At 5% CTR that will return me 125 clicks per month. If the CPC is $1 at 50% that will return me 125 x .50 which is $62.50 a month. Too low for me to bother with. That's why I focus on at least $2 CPC's and traffic in the range of at least 3000 though my partner found what seems to be a really good one today.
      I wish I could give you more accurate answers but I cant because searches will click both organic and paid searches. AOL's data says that 40% will click the first organic link but there was no mention of adwords.

      To be honest, I just noticed that you want to do ppc, adsense arbitrage
      Forget everything I said about searching in quotes, you don't even need to know that. What you need to concentrate on is making your ads good so that you can get a good quality score which will lower your bids.

      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author carlos123
        Originally Posted by michael_nguyen View Post

        To be honest, I just noticed that you want to do ppc, adsense arbitrage
        Forget everything I said about searching in quotes, you don't even need to know that. What you need to concentrate on is making your ads good so that you can get a good quality score which will lower your bids.
        Thanks so much for the additional input Michael. Now you have REALLY given me some stuff to think about. I will definitely take some time to review my Google Adwords Keyword search criteria with respect to using Exact or Phrase.

        I started using Phrase because others more experienced than me were doing it but I can see now...that like most things in life, it pays to have a sound reason for doing something and not just follow what others are doing because they are more experienced than me.

        I mean I may still use Phrase match but I need to understand why (if indeed I continue to use that).

        ppc, adsense arbitrage eh? I'm not familiar with that term though egads...I actually think I understand what you mean....I think. The collective forum wisdom here may be starting to rub off on me .

        Carlos
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        • Profile picture of the author michael_nguyen
          Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post

          Thanks so much for the additional input Michael. Now you have REALLY given me some stuff to think about. I will definitely take some time to review my Google Adwords Keyword search criteria with respect to using Exact or Phrase.

          I started using Phrase because others more experienced than me were doing it but I can see now...that like most things in life, it pays to have a sound reason for doing something and not just follow what others are doing because they are more experienced than me.

          I mean I may still use Phrase match but I need to understand why (if indeed I continue to use that).

          ppc, adsense arbitrage eh? I'm not familiar with that term though egads...I actually think I understand what you mean....I think. The collective forum wisdom here may be starting to rub off on me .

          Carlos
          You're doing PPC so I would suggest DO phrase and exact match. Adsense arbitrage is to do PPC pay low click --> land on your site, click adsense ---> higher payout then the low click. Arbitrage means risk free but theres always risk.
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