Do hyphens in a domain make it harder to rank?

TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

hyphens are ignored, what matters is your marketing ...

James

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Zach Booker 15 years ago

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

hyphens are ignored, what matters is your marketing ...

James

Exactly...

If there is a difference, which IMO there isn't, it would be so small that it barely matters.

It's the same as when people argue over .com or .org. Is there a difference? Maybe.

But does that really matter if your going to market your site so well that it'll blow the competition away?

Zach
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DRB

15 years ago

Yes it does. In google anyway. Yahoo and MSN its OK but thats not really a plus is it?

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Will_Surren 15 years ago

The hyphens have not hurt my ranking in the least... There are many sites with hyphens ranking at the top of search results. If your statement was true you would not see them on the 1st page.
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steved333

15 years ago

Google doesn't have a problem with hyphens. It sees the words in the url, and that's it. I've used hyphens in urls in the past in other niches and hit page one in a few weeks. It's more about the content being relevant to the url and incoming links, not hyphens. And as for Yahoo and MSN, good ranking helps no matter where it is. I just got a sale on my sales funnel book from a Yahoo search yesterday.

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Louise Green

15 years ago

I haven't noticed much difference between my domains with hyphens and ones without.

Any additional letters (such as ez) might have a very slight impact on your SEO as extra words or letters dilute the overall relevancy.

On the other hand, I have used domain names that don't have any of my main keywords and still achieved top ranks.

Your domain name is important, but there's bigger things to spend your time on, so rest assured that no matter which name you choose, your chances of hitting the right spot are just as good as anyone else's.

Bets of luck

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clickbump

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Lovelylou

Your domain name is important, but there's bigger things to spend your time on, so rest assured that no matter which name you choose, your chances of hitting the right spot are just as good as anyone else's...

Hi Lovelylou, this comment piqued my interest. I've heard, and thus far believe, that all else being equal, the advantage goes to the domain with the exact keyword match as what's being searched for.

For example, if you and I both have a page about "white sugar cookies" and my domain name is whitesugarcookies.com and your domain is allaboutsweets.com, then I would venture a guess, I'm going to trump you for that search. No?

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dave147

15 years ago

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dave147

if your domain is whitesugarcookies.com and Jakehyten's domain is white-sugar-cookies.com who do you think will rank higher?

Since search engines ignore the hyphens then it would be draw.

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carlos123

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Since search engines ignore the hyphens then it would be draw.

Don...just wondering what you think of the article that was linked to earlier in this thread...SEO Google ranking – Dump the domain dash

The author makes a strong case for believing that Google does indeed pay attention to whether a domain name has a hyphen or not.

Carlos

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by carlos123

Don...just wondering what you think of the article that was linked to earlier in this thread...SEO Google ranking - Dump the domain dash

The author makes a strong case for believing that Google does indeed pay attention to whether a domain name has a hyphen or not.

Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Correlation does not imply causation. His case sounds like the classic effect of QDF and he confused that with causation. At best it's anecdotal and proves absolutely nothing.

I just checked his keyword and discovered freelance-writers.net on the first page for his targeted keyword and it's doesn't even have the keyword in the domain, page title, description snippet or page text. What does that tell you?

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carlos123

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Carlos,

Correlation does not imply causation. His case sounds like the classic effect of QDF and he confused that with causation. At best it anecdotal and proves absolutely nothing.

I just checked his keyword and discovered freelance-writers.net on the first page for his targeted keyword and it's doesn't even have the keyword in the domain, page title, description snippet or page text. What does that tell you?

Hmm...interesting. Well that would tell me that having hyphens in the domain is not nearly as bad as the author implied.

Google's Matt Cutt's himself once said in something I was reading that hyphens or not doesn't really matter. He actually said it might be better to use hyphens in certain cases, if I remember correctly, and gave the example of...let's see if I can remember...I think it was expertsexchange.com. Where without the hyphen Google might wrongly serve up ads for expert sex change as opposed to experts exchange.

One thing's for sure. Lots of domain naming possibilities open up for us if we are willing to consider using hyphens.

Carlos

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carlos123

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

His case sounds like the classic effect of QDF ..

Don...what does QDF stand for? I tried to find a definition of it but all I could come up was Quicken Data File...

Carlos

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dburk

15 years ago

Hi Carlos,

QDF stands for Query Deserves Freshness.

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carlos123

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Carlos,

QDF stands for Query Deserves Freshness.

Thanks for clarifying that Don but why would his case, about how his site shot to the skies in ranking well after he removed the hyphens, be a classic case of QDF? A technique Google uses to show relevant and hot content related to breaking news or fresh content.

I mean as you see it what did changing the hyphen have to do with breaking news or fresh content of the type that QDF is designed to focus on?

Unless you think changing the hyphenation made his site a QDF target.

Are you saying that if his site was not hyphenated and he stuck in hyphens that it would likely have shot up just as well as a result of Google's QDF?

Just curious.

By the way Don if I ever ask you something on a thread please don't feel like you are obligated by virtue of participating in a thread or otherwise to answer my questions though of course if you have anything further to add I am all ears.

Carlos

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by carlos123

Thanks for clarifying that Don but why would his case, about how his site shot to the skies in ranking well after he removed the hyphens, be a classic case of QDF? A technique Google uses to show relevant and hot content related to breaking news or fresh content.

I mean as you see it what did changing the hyphen have to do with breaking news or fresh content of the type that QDF is designed to focus on?

Unless you think changing the hyphenation made his site a QDF target.

Are you saying that if his site was not hyphenated and he stuck in hyphens that it would likely have shot up just as well as a result of Google's QDF?

Just curious.

By the way Don if I ever ask you something on a thread please don't feel like you are obligated by virtue of participating in a thread or otherwise to answer my questions though of course if you have anything further to add I am all ears.

Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Google sees different domain names as different websites. You can 't change a domain name, you must register any change as a new domain. So in his case he actually launched a brand new website in the eyes of the search engine, hence QDF comes into play. My guess is he got an extra boost if he 301 redirected his old pages to the new domain/website. That was probably all it took to push him up the ranks. Then blogging about the test made for excellent link bait and cemented his top position.

Like I said it was anecdotal evidence, and likely would have been the same result if he had a none hyphenated name and moved to a hyphenated name. There are simply way too many variables that could have contributed to his ranking improvement.

His story wasn't conclusive, he did nothing to isolate other variables that could have effected the results, he used no control group, he didn't test enough to rule out coincidence, he did not demonstrate that he could repeat the test with the same result. In other words, not really a test at all.

If I were to suggest rolling a pair of dice while facing north would increase the chance of rolling a six, based on my "test" of trying it once and in fact rolling a six, would you believe my assertion? What if I did it twice in a row? Would that be absolute proof, or just coincidence?

Read up on the "Rooster Syndrome" to get a clearer understanding of this topic:
http://www.datacosolutions.com/docum...Co-Rooster.pdf

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carlos123

15 years ago

Hmm...you make a lot of sense Don. Interesting.

I wonder based on what you say if a lot of SEO "wisdom" is just so much hot air and pure conjecture.

Interesting indeed.

The most interesting part of what you said is that when he changed his domain to avoid hyphens Google saw it as a new web site (for the most part though I think there is something to be said for the thought that Google might have seen it mainly as the same if it doesn't really pay attention to hyphens). He definitely broke all his previous inbound links to it and started afresh link wise.

I hadn't thought of that.

Which would make his conclusion based on the first day's affect (presumably) of such a change...well...not very conclusive at all. I mean Google is not known for properly ranking a site into it's proper slot one day after it comes to it's attention.

Good point Don. Thanks for sharing.

Carlos

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Carlos,

Google sees different domain names as different websites. You can 't change a domain name, you must register any change as a new domain. So in his case he actually launched a brand new website in the eyes of the search engine, hence QDF comes into play. My guess is he got an extra boost if he 301 redirected his old pages to the new domain/website. That was probably all it took to push him up the ranks. Then blogging about the test made for excellent link bait and cemented his top position.

Like I said it was anecdotal evidence, and likely would have been the same result if he had a none hyphenated name and moved to a hyphenated name. There are simply way too many variables that could have contributed to his ranking improvement.

His story wasn't conclusive, he did nothing to isolate other variables that could have effected the results, he used no control group, he didn't test enough to rule out coincidence, he did not demonstrate that he could repeat the test with the same result. In other words, not really a test at all.

If I were to suggest rolling a pair of dice while facing north would increase the chance of rolling a six, based on my "test" of trying it once and in fact rolling a six, would you believe my assertion? What if I did it twice in a row? Would that be absolute proof, or just coincidence?

Read up on the "Rooster Syndrome" to get a clearer understanding of this topic:
http://www.datacosolutions.com/docum...Co-Rooster.pdf

Thanks

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carlos123

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dburk

Read up on the "Rooster Syndrome" to get a clearer understanding of this topic:
http://www.datacosolutions.com/docum...Co-Rooster.pdf

Excellent pdf Don! Thanks. A bit hard to read a bit...his language is a bit...well...interspersed somewhat in statistical linguo and such...but his point is completely valid.

May I ask Don what would have made for a good control group to help us determine whether hyphens really make a difference or not in ranking well on Google?

What kind of test could be devised to measure such a thing more accurately?

Carlos

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dburk

15 years ago

Originally Posted by carlos123

Excellent pdf Don! Thanks. A bit hard to read a bit...his language is a bit...well...interspersed somewhat in statistical linguo and such...but his point is completely valid.

May I ask Don what would have made for a good control group to help us determine whether hyphens really make a difference or not in ranking well on Google?

What kind of test could be devised to measure such a thing more accurately?

Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Perhaps selecting a couple dozen keywords and register both the hyphenated and non-hyphenated names. Build out websites with equal content and promotional efforts over a six month period for each keyword, but do half with hyphens the other 12 without hyphenated names.

After six months, 301 redirect the domains to their previously unused counterparts and measure the ranking changes. This would be a relatively small sample size but if there was a significant bias toward no-hyphenated domains it should be apparent even in this small sample size.

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carlos123 15 years ago

That would definitely be a better test than what the author concluded by the changes that occurred on a single domain. Alas finding someone to definitively do the kind of test you suggested would take too long and be too time consuming to realistically expect anyone to do it.

So I guess we will be left with conjectures and hypothesis...for now.

Carlos
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ryandales2000

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Lovelylou

Your domain name is important, but there's bigger things to spend your time on, so rest assured that no matter which name you choose, your chances of hitting the right spot are just as good as anyone else's.

Bets of luck

I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH YOU. Try typing vintage electric guitar into Google search box without quotes and you will see, for US results (as of 9/26/09) in the No. 2 Position Vintage Electric Guitar. The amazing thing is that this site is basically an "empty" PR0 Wordpress blog with only the Hello World post on it. Yahoo reported only 2 inlinks for this site. The more amazing thing is that this barren PR0 blog with only 2 backlinks is trumping www.chicagomusicexchage.com which is at No.7. If we scrutinize the details we can see that Vintage Guitars | Chicago Music Exchange | Electric Guitars | Fender Gibson Marshall Rickenbacker | Vintage Guitar Dealer is a PR4 supersite with a whopping 59,600 backlinks. Now how can a barren PR0 blog with 2 links far outrank a PR4 supersite with 59,600 links? The answer is in the power of having the exact keyword in the domain. These facts refutes your statement that "no matter which name you choose, your chances of hitting the right spot are just as good as anyone else's".

And, in my opinion, Google has a sound rationale for giving enormous weight to having the exact keyword in the URL. If a searcher types in Sony , will you not be dismayed if you get, for example, mysony.com, a1sony.com, sonyreviews.com ahead of the real company website Sony USA?

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AidanKay

15 years ago

As most others are saying, Google has no problems with hypens. It reads the words as though there were none (hyphens, that is).

But, using underscores.. and yes, I know you can't have underscores in your domain name - is apparently not the same as hyphens or spaces. So just to let you know, if you have a non wp website, don't create html/php files with names like "structural_engineering.html" because it won't be the same, seo-wise, as "structural-engineering.html" or "structuralengineering.html".

To get back to the domain name, the more hyphens in your name the harder it is for people to remember. Plus, some people tend to trust non-hyphend domains more. Looks less spammy I guess.

Any how, they're my opinions.

Goodluck!

-Aidan.

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DRB

15 years ago

My advice is to do a google search on what you are thinking of buying and see how many hyphened domain names are in the top results.

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Thomson 15 years ago

Well, there are no such problems in buying a domain name with hyphens, however, the only thing is the fact that it makes visitors difficult to remember your domain name especially if there are more than one hyphens.

The rest depends on the kind of marketing work you do for your website and the number of backlinks you have. Also, Content is king, do remember this
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DRB

15 years ago

Elvis is the King .... also remember this

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George Wright

15 years ago

Hi,

What DRB said is my rule of thumb also.

Search your key words and see how many on the first page have hyphens. If you see some then it's not hurting that key word set.

On the other hand if you are going to market a lot and go viral a hyphen will work. At least it works for e-junkie.

You usually can find an acceptable URL without hyphens if they worry you.

Just for instance. Business.com is taken of course. WarriorBusiness.com is taken but MyWarriorBusiness.com is available. Play with words.

George Wright

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TheRichJerksNet 15 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

MyWarriorBusiness.com is available. Play with words.

George Wright

Hey George, check that in about 30 minutes or so and see if it is still there... Someone may register it now....

James
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Danny Keegan

15 years ago

Testing is the way to find out, here's an interesting blog post from someone that has

Cheers,
Danny.

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mikemcmillan

15 years ago

Google looks at names with hyphens as different words. Google sees she-is-great as three different words. However, with underscores it is different. Google sees she_is_great as one word and won't parse the individual words out. You will see different results if you do searches for those two terms.

No one can be sure, but if you get beyond 3-4 hyphens Google may think it looks spammy. A lot of Viagra ads and stuff like that have a dozen hyphens in them. I wouldn't use more than about four, but with three there isn't a problem. I've had many sites with 3 hyphens get #1 rankings on "G".

But like Imran and others said, it's harder to brand a name with hyphens in it.

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bally chohan

15 years ago

Matt cuts said that the best thing to link the sub pages is to hypen them so same with tghe domain name I think

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dburk 15 years ago

Hi Jakehyten,

Hyphens are fine for search engines, in fact in certain circumstances hyphens can be better than non-hyphenated domains. So if search engines are your only concern than go for hyphens.

However if you are trying to create a brand there is an advantage to non-hyphenated domains but you may lose some of the advantage of having keywords in your name when you select names suitable for branding. Names that are good for branding generally do not have keywords in them, there are some exceptions but they are rare.
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carlos123 15 years ago

Originally Posted by bally chohan

Matt cuts said that the best thing to link the sub pages is to hypen them so same with tghe domain name I think

Bally...can you provide a source reference for that please. I would like to read more about what Matt said about that.

Carlos
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JonathanBoettcher

15 years ago

If you're just going for SEO type traffic, then hyphens shouldn't be a problem.

However, as soon as you start trying to brand that name (if you're planning on it) OFFLINE or in video or podcasts (or anywhere else where you don't click a link directly) then you need to start considering if hyphens are going to throw the person off the track at all.

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pbennett 15 years ago

hyphens haven't hurt my ranking for my primary key words - gluten free chocolate. However, I'm having a devil of a time trying to figure out how to rank for "gluten free"...It's weird. I rank for gluten free chocolate, gluten free chocolates, chocolate gluten...but when you get to just gluten free...nada
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mejohn

15 years ago

Echoing others' comments, I stay away from hyphens. A clean domain name brings more brandability

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oleic23

Banned 15 years ago

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Joshua.E1 15 years ago

You might want to read some of my posts on regarding domain names.

How to choose a good domain name, and SEO in your website URL.
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Do hyphens in a domain make it harder to rank?

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