SEO, SEO, Backlinks... Six Figures?? not!

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Out of everyone I know in this business who makes a lot of money, only a couple focus on SEO, backlinks, etc. as their primary way to get traffic and earn six figures or more. I can count on one hand the six figure earners from SEO, backlinks, etc.

Maybe I just dont know those people.

I do know a lot of people in this business though.

But, maybe I know all the *others*.

However, most of the people I come into contact with who are NOT making money, well, most of them DO focus on SEO, backlinks, etc. It's interesting. I'm not saying SEO, backlinks, etc does not work. Of course it works.

But, when 97% of the people I know make their money with paid traffic and affiliates... and only 3% earn their money from SEO and backlinks... I cant help (for the sake of being blunt) scratch my head.

THEN, when 97% of the people I come across who are NOT making money focus on those methods for traffic... I scratch my head again.

I know, I know, there will be the heard of folks claim they make their big bucks with SEO, back-links, etc on here... but I dont know them. Maybe they are too busy doing SEO stuff to build relationships so I dont get to know any of them.

Or, maybe... just maybe... since I've had countless students *switch* from SEO to other forms of traffic... and then start earning money... maybe, just maybe... that SEO stuff is not the answer.

hmm

Let the flame begin

~Eric
#backlinks #figures #seo
  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    I know someone that makes at least 6 figures. Most large SEO firms have power in numbers and their owners do sometimes make good money. I don't think there are too many small operations in SEO that big money unless they are reselling services.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    But, when 97% of the people I know make their money with paid traffic and affiliates... and only 3% earn their money from SEO and backlinks... I cant help (for the sake of being blunt) scratch my head.

    hmm

    Let the flame begin

    ~Eric

    Eric!!! OMG!!!! Quit cutting thru the bull****!!!

    They want to believe that SEO is the only way!!!

    They need to believe that it is, because it is the only thing most can do without spending money.

    LOL

    Yep, SEO brings me some free money, but long term, the money is the list... And I have made the most of my money tapping into other peoples' lists.
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    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Eric!!! OMG!!!! Quit cutting thru the bull****!!!

      They want to believe that SEO is the only way!!!

      They need to believe that it is, because it is the only thing most can do without spending money.

      LOL

      Yep, SEO brings me some free money, but long term, the money is the list... And I have made the most of my money tapping into other peoples' lists.
      hehe

      I knew I'd catch that big fish on my line.

      lol

      hahaha

      I'm cool

      SEO, etc is great. It works, just that most people cannot make it work (well enough)... that's all. If I had my way, everyone would do it as G R A V Y... not as the primary way to depend on for paying da house and stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

        hehe

        I knew I'd catch that big fish on my line.

        lol

        hahaha

        I'm cool

        SEO, etc is great. It works, just that most people cannot make it work (well enough)... that's all. If I had my way, everyone would do it as G R A V Y... not as the primary way to depend on for paying da house and stuff.

        Tee Hee... I ain't no big fish...

        But yeah, I have always treated SEO as my gravy money.

        One of my favorite arguments about SEO is that there are millions of pages competing for the search term and only room on page one for ten sites.

        If you invest all your money chasing SEO, what is going to happen to your business when you don't succeed quickly?

        If you cannot get on page one of Google in 3-4 months, that would spell "business failure" for most websites.

        So what are you going to do to make sure you are successful, while you are waiting for Google to recognize your website as worthy of their search traffic?

        If you are not treating Google as gravy, then you may never get the opportunity to benefit from good search rankings... If you run out of money before Google gives you the rankings you expect, you are still dead in the water...

        So by all means, build your marketing plan without Google as part of the equation... Build your marketing plan to ensure your long-term success, and then if and when the Google Gods smile on you, you will still be around to accept their praise.
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        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Tee Hee... I ain't no big fish...

          But yeah, I have always treated SEO as my gravy money.

          One of my favorite arguments about SEO is that there are millions of pages competing for the search term and only room on page one for ten sites.

          If you invest all your money chasing SEO, what is going to happen to your business when you don't succeed quickly?

          If you cannot get on page one of Google in 3-4 months, that would spell "business failure" for most websites.

          So what are you going to do to make sure you are successful, while you are waiting for Google to recognize your website as worthy of their search traffic?

          If you are not treating Google as gravy, then you may never get the opportunity to benefit from good search rankings... If you run out of money before Google gives you the rankings you expect, you are still dead in the water...

          So by all means, build your marketing plan without Google as part of the equation... Build your marketing plan to ensure your long-term success, and then if and when the Google Gods smile on you, you will still be around to accept their praise.
          you a stud in my book
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          • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
            97% make money NOT doing SEO
            3% make money with SEO

            However, it seems that 97% of newbie marketers go for... you got it, SEO!

            And then they wonder..."where's all the money?"

            Can I get a hallelujah?

            Holla'
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            • Profile picture of the author jan roos
              LOL Eric, you seem like a pretty funny dude and yeah, you sure have a great point here. Most people can't handle the thought of paid traffic and believe So called "free" traffic is the only way to go.

              SEO is not free traffic. It has quite a large cost to it in either your time or your money. I LOVE the free traffic I get from SEO so I will never bash it but I also agree that paid traffic is better and much more controlable. There's also much more traffic in the paid world than in the SEO world.

              Personally I make about 5K per month from SEO traffic and I dig it. It's almost like free money but I also make more than 5K a month from paid traffic which is the type of traffic that seems more stabel and reliable to me so if I had to choose I'd take paid traffic in a heartbeat.

              Joint ventures and traffic from your list is obviously the preferred way to get traffic but it won't work in certain situations.

              Cheers
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              • Profile picture of the author jan roos
                Oh and I almost forgot. Haleluja!!
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                • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
                  but, but, but... everyone says SEO is their top way to get traffic and make money!

                  there's an entire thread I just saw and almost all of them said SEO is their favorite.

                  I'd really love to know how long and how hard it was to build up a 5k per month SEO income. How long you been doing this? How long you been an IMer? Also, there's that old 80/20 rule... and would wonder if 80% of your 5k per month comes from one site/seo ranked thaang... or if that 5k is spread around a bunch of places or sites.

                  Just wondering, as this has been a fascination of mine for years... people gravitate to the path of least resistance, and SEO sounds like the easy route... but it isnt.

                  ~Punk
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                  • Profile picture of the author tpw
                    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

                    Just wondering, as this has been a fascination of mine for years... people gravitate to the path of least resistance, and SEO sounds like the easy route... but it isnt.

                    ~Punk

                    Dude!!!

                    You are gonna make heads explode with this.

                    They say they are looking for the golden nugget of truth, but when they see it here, they are gonna crap their pants... And then promptly deny it!!!
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                    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                  • Profile picture of the author jan roos
                    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

                    but, but, but... everyone says SEO is their top way to get traffic and make money!

                    there's an entire thread I just saw and almost all of them said SEO is their favorite.

                    I'd really love to know how long and how hard it was to build up a 5k per month SEO income. How long you been doing this? How long you been an IMer? Also, there's that old 80/20 rule... and would wonder if 80% of your 5k per month comes from one site/seo ranked thaang... or if that 5k is spread around a bunch of places or sites.

                    Just wondering, as this has been a fascination of mine for years... people gravitate to the path of least resistance, and SEO sounds like the easy route... but it isnt.

                    ~Punk
                    5K or actually this month so far 5K and it's only the 13th. This comes from 10 affiliate sites and no it wasn't easy to rank them on the search engines. Yes it did take a lot of work and/or money to get the proper back linking done.

                    Once the sites got to page one, they stuck there and gets thousands of targeted visitors per month bringing me my auto pilot income. No the traffic wasn't free but it sure as hell was worth it.

                    I already said paid traffic is great and I do agree with your overall point to an extent but you can't exclude some good old SEO traffic.

                    Cheers

                    Ps. hope your headache won't be too bad tomorrow.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
                      Originally Posted by jan roos View Post

                      5K or actually this month so far 5K and it's only the 13th. This comes from 10 affiliate sites and no it wasn't easy to rank them on the search engines. Yes it did take a lot of work and/or money to get the proper back linking done.

                      Once the sites got to page one, they stuck there and gets thousands of targeted visitors per month bringing me my auto pilot income. No the traffic wasn't free but it sure as hell was worth it.

                      I already said paid traffic is great and I do agree with your overall point to an extent but you can't exclude some good old SEO traffic.

                      Cheers

                      Ps. hope your headache won't be too bad tomorrow.
                      Headache? I'm not drinking, i was born this way. lol

                      so, you paid for backlinks? with money? Which is just as good as cash? like paid?

                      nothing wrong with good old SEO, except that it's SEO.

                      ~Tequila

                      PS - Ok, guys, was just trying to have some fun... SEO rules. have a great night.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

              97% make money NOT doing SEO
              3% make money with SEO

              However, it seems that 97% of newbie marketers go for... you got it, SEO!

              And then they wonder..."where's all the money?"

              Can I get a hallelujah?

              Holla'



              Hallelujah!!!
              Signature
              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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              • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
                OMG, OMG!

                I just realized I rank #1 in Google for my name!

                I checked Yahoo, and I'm #1 there for organic, but some folks have some paid ads above my SEO optimized, kick-booty site/name. damn it

                (cuz google will ban ya a$$ if you post make money stuff on my name as the keyword. I told them and they listened and they will ban the living chit out of you if you bid on my name. I mean ban you forever, gone, done, over!)

                I bet... I could rank tops for:

                SeoSucksForTrafficAndMoney.com

                just sayin'

                lol, I'm going to go to sleep. My entertainment for tonight is ovah' and nobody flamed me one bit. what's up with that?? you guys are going soft on me. where's exrat? He loves to biatch doesnt he? he banned or something?

                lmao

                ~Mr. Organic
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            • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
              Originally Posted by Terry Gorry View Post

              And the source of these statistics is?

              Plucking figures out of your head and putting them down here does not make them true?

              What are the real figures?

              I haven't a clue..and neither have you (with respect)

              Terry
              SEO lover,

              such a strong and superior argument you suggest, I'm almost regretful of my "off the top of my head" stats. You haven't a clue indeed (with respect)

              C'mon doode, at least attack the "position" I'm taking instead of my obvious "non-real" figures. 97% of the people who challenge my position love chocolate and bunny rabbits.

              3% dont.

              97/3 rule

              ~Easter Bunny
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  • Profile picture of the author jesus72knight
    Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

    I know someone that makes at least 6 figures. Most large SEO firms have power in numbers and their owners do sometimes make good money. I don't think there are too many small operations in SEO that big money unless they are reselling services.
    Wow! As in "WOW" Nice story you've got there dvduval. This guy just hit on a jackpot. And he worked hard for it. Great!
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    • Profile picture of the author dvduval
      Originally Posted by jesus72knight View Post

      Wow! As in "WOW" Nice story you've got there dvduval. This guy just hit on a jackpot. And he worked hard for it. Great!
      Thanks. Yes, it was an amazing experience for me that I met this person when he was in a village making less than $200/month, and then he flew in and saw me in Palo Alto just a few years later with hundreds of employees. It was surreal.
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
    Paid traffic and your list is where all your money is lies. BUT before you get to all that, as a newbie, you should mainly learn how to convert that SEO and FREE traffic that you're getting before moving onto Paid traffic.

    Because face it, you can get all the paid traffic to your site that your server can handle but if you haven't learned how to convert that traffic then your business is out an EXTREMELY large amount of money and will probably fail VERY quickly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
      Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer View Post

      Paid traffic and your list is where all your money is lies. BUT before you get to all that, as a newbie, you should mainly learn how to convert that SEO and FREE traffic that you're getting before moving onto Paid traffic.

      Because face it, you can get all the paid traffic to your site that your server can handle but if you haven't learned how to convert that traffic then your business is out an EXTREMELY large amount of money and will probably fail VERY quickly.
      ALL RIGHT!

      A playa'

      Ok, ok... wait I'm a little too excited. was going to go to sleep... but you woke me up. Alright, so... newbies should first go with SEO?? then after they dial in their conversions... then go to paid traffic??

      hehe

      So, a newbie spends what?? Six months on SEO and article marketing... to finally realize they cant convert? Then, another six months making sure it converts... then go to paid traffic?? Instead of finding out that their stuff dont convert in.... 15 minutes!! with paid traffic??

      Ok, ok... spend $20 and see if it converts with paid traffic... OR... OR... OR... spend six months with free traffic SEO to find out... OH NO, I wasted six months!!

      Alright, I'm dizzy sleepy.

      Late!

      ~Smokin Hot Sexy
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      • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
        Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

        Ok, ok... spend $20 and see if it converts with paid traffic... OR... OR... OR... spend six months with free traffic SEO to find out... OH NO, I wasted six months!!
        Yea, kinda reminds me of the newbie that thought he setup a $5 a day campaign with a limit of $100 and ended up with a bill, at the end of the month, for $575 and is sitting back wondering what just happen?
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        • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
          Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer View Post

          Yea, kinda reminds me of the newbie that thought he setup a $5 a day campaign with a limit of $100 and ended up with a bill, at the end of the month, for $575 and is sitting back wondering what just happen?
          $575 (even for a clueless marketer who did not set his budget) is still better than SIX MONTHS OF WASTED TIME!

          You cant win homie... I'm king. I own this world. You just pay rent. Rent's due or I'm taking your flat screen!

          ~Mike Tyson
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          • Profile picture of the author jan roos
            Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

            $575 (even for a clueless marketer who did not set his budget) is still better than SIX MONTHS OF WASTED TIME!

            You cant win homie... I'm king. I own this world. You just pay rent. Rent's due or I'm taking your flat screen!

            ~Mike Tyson

            So you spend lets say $500 on Adwords to see if your niche converts. You make sales, GREAT! You should also be able to tell if you are a smart marketer which keywords made those sales so you take those keywords and some of the profits you made from your campaign and try and rank organically for those keywords. Now you have the best of both worlds.

            Cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer View Post

      Paid traffic and your list is where all your money is lies. BUT before you get to all that, as a newbie, you should mainly learn how to convert that SEO and FREE traffic that you're getting before moving onto Paid traffic.

      Because face it, you can get all the paid traffic to your site that your server can handle but if you haven't learned how to convert that traffic then your business is out an EXTREMELY large amount of money and will probably fail VERY quickly.

      Tee hee hee...

      Don't you realize that getting that free traffic from Google can often be very expensive?

      Would you rather test your sales copy on $100 or $300 of Google Adword traffic, OR $4,000 "free" search engine traffic?

      When I last ran my SEO firm, I insisted that clients had experience with PPC before coming to me.

      Otherwise, I would risk doing them a great disservice by letting them spend $5,000 per month with me on keywords that could not convert traffic to sales!!

      Let me tell you a story...

      I have always used Article Marketing to ensure my SEO success...

      There was one keyword that I thought would be extremely profitable for me to pursue.

      I spent several months of my time chasing that one keyword... It had to be a good one -- my competitors were spending $2 per click for that traffic!!

      After about 4 months of heavy link building and more than two dozen high-quality syndicated articles, I grabbed #1 for the singular and plural of the keyword.

      Now, I did not pay any money to get that #1 spot in Google.

      I only spent my time, and you are thinking that your time is FREE, right?

      I spent probably 100 man-hours to get that number one ranking in Google for the singular and plural of the target keyword.

      How much is your time really worth to you?

      If you are a minimum wage earner, then that 100 hours is about $800. At my avg hourly earning at that time, it was closer to $4000 invested in that one keyword phrase.

      But I got #1 in Google, and I did not have to pay $2 per click to get that traffic.

      I just checked the Google External Keyword Tool. People are currently paying $1.24 for the singular and $1.48 for the plural.

      So it would seem that this is still a profitable keyword?

      In the #1 spot, I only got 42 clicks per month, with an average of a 6% closing ratio, netting me 2-2.5 sales per month. And the average gross sale was $400 with a profit margin of 15%.

      How good is your math?

      So I earned about $1,000 per month gross, with a profit margin of $150...

      And I spent approximately $4000 to get that free traffic...

      In the end, I would have had to continue offering that service for 27 months (2 yrs and 3 months), just to break even!!


      Anyone who claims that FREE traffic is cheaper than PAID traffic is not doing their math right...
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Tee hee hee...

        Don't you realize that getting that free traffic from Google can often be very expensive?

        Would you rather test your sales copy on $100 or $300 of Google Adword traffic, OR $4,000 "free" search engine traffic?

        When I last ran my SEO firm, I insisted that clients had experience with PPC before coming to me.

        Otherwise, I would risk doing them a great disservice by letting them spend $5,000 per month with me on keywords that could not convert traffic to sales!!

        Let me tell you a story...

        I have always used Article Marketing to ensure my SEO success...

        There was one keyword that I thought would be extremely profitable for me to pursue.

        I spent several months of my time chasing that one keyword... It had to be a good one -- my competitors were spending $2 per click for that traffic!!

        After about 4 months of heavy link building and more than two dozen high-quality syndicated articles, I grabbed #1 for the singular and plural of the keyword.

        Now, I did not pay any money to get that #1 spot in Google.

        I only spent my time, and you are thinking that your time is FREE, right?

        I spent probably 100 man-hours to get that number one ranking in Google for the singular and plural of the target keyword.

        How much is your time really worth to you?

        If you are a minimum wage earner, then that 100 hours is about $800. At my avg hourly earning at that time, it was closer to $4000 invested in that one keyword phrase.

        But I got #1 in Google, and I did not have to pay $2 per click to get that traffic.

        I just checked the Google External Keyword Tool. People are currently paying $1.24 for the singular and $1.48 for the plural.

        So it would seem that this is still a profitable keyword?

        In the #1 spot, I only got 42 clicks per month, with an average of a 6% closing ratio, netting me 2-2.5 sales per month. And the average gross sale was $400 with a profit margin of 15%.

        How good is your math?

        So I earned about $1,000 per month gross, with a profit margin of $150...

        And I spent approximately $4000 to get that free traffic...

        In the end, I would have had to continue offering that service for 27 months (2 yrs and 3 months), just to break even!!


        Anyone who claims that FREE traffic is cheaper than PAID traffic is not doing their math right...
        I take that back, you win. You're my second in command warrior stud for the week. Sorry Jan.
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        • Profile picture of the author KEY
          thanks to (tpw) bill for making it so I did not have to type!

          in so many IM situations people seems to forget to pay
          themselves for the work that they themselves do!

          paid and jv/affiliate traffic have the advantage of generating
          results quickly. where seo generally takes time to get up
          to speed and does require regular tweaking.

          while I will always 'do' the seo 'thing'? it just seems that
          for me jv/affiliate traffic makes it happen. though it may well
          be that those affiliates are all secretly seo masters! which
          would make that traffic really seo then:confused:

          KEY (eric)
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi KEY,

            paid and jv/affiliate traffic have the advantage of generating
            results quickly. where seo generally takes time to get up
            to speed and does require regular tweaking.
            Paid traffic is a different thing, but as for the affiliate thing, there is an ethical dilemma involved that only those who have invested heavily in being an affiliate will discover.

            There is a food-chain at work and only those at the top fully understand how it works.

            Affiliate marketing is fundamentally flawed. If someone sets out to be a full-time affiliate marketer, they are positioning themselves in a very weak position in that food-chain.

            A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. As an affiliate marketer, there are so many weak links between them and the money that it's not even funny, especially when we are talking about cookie-based affiliate marketing.

            But there is such a high turnover at the bottom of this food-chain that is doesn't really matter to the person running the affiliate program.

            Whether it's problems with cookies working properly due to browsers for example, or whether it's due to dishonesty such as the type that is rampant in CPA with shaving and the like.

            If someone has been an affiliate and has experienced these things and then goes on to run their own affiliate program, then they are no different to a salesman who works for a corrupt company that shaves from their salesman who takes the offer of rising up through the ranks and fleecing the salesmen below him, doing the job that he once did.

            THAT is why some people don't like to use affiliates to build their business, because they have to lie to their affiliates when they tell them that their affiliate program is a great opportunity.

            It's easy for someone blinkered to ignore this little detail and trade on the fact that there is such a high turnover of newbies that it doesn't seem to matter.

            But anyone of principle would not take this course, because they see the big picture and realise that what goes around comes around and by contributing to this mess, they might slightly enrichen themselves, but they are enrichening themselves in a world that they are making more sh*tty by their action of enrichening themselves in this way.

            It's complex and it's easy to look past this and say 'does it really matter?'. Or to say 'am I not so insignificant that my actions won't actually make a difference?'

            And therein lies the reason why the world is currently a very negative, nasty place for the majority and one which is destroying itself at a pace which simply cannot be sustained for much longer.

            Again, many people in a marketing forum will scoff at my words. I'm used to it. But think of them the next time a corporation rips you off, or you eat a fish full of poison, or you get frisked at the airport, or your taxes get put up again in order to pay for your country's ridiculously unsustainable deficit.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Tee hee hee...

        Don't you realize that getting that free traffic from Google can often be very expensive?

        Would you rather test your sales copy on $100 or $300 of Google Adword traffic, OR $4,000 "free" search engine traffic?

        When I last ran my SEO firm, I insisted that clients had experience with PPC before coming to me.

        Otherwise, I would risk doing them a great disservice by letting them spend $5,000 per month with me on keywords that could not convert traffic to sales!!

        Let me tell you a story...

        I have always used Article Marketing to ensure my SEO success...

        There was one keyword that I thought would be extremely profitable for me to pursue.

        I spent several months of my time chasing that one keyword... It had to be a good one -- my competitors were spending $2 per click for that traffic!!

        After about 4 months of heavy link building and more than two dozen high-quality syndicated articles, I grabbed #1 for the singular and plural of the keyword.

        Now, I did not pay any money to get that #1 spot in Google.

        I only spent my time, and you are thinking that your time is FREE, right?

        I spent probably 100 man-hours to get that number one ranking in Google for the singular and plural of the target keyword.

        How much is your time really worth to you?

        If you are a minimum wage earner, then that 100 hours is about $800. At my avg hourly earning at that time, it was closer to $4000 invested in that one keyword phrase.

        But I got #1 in Google, and I did not have to pay $2 per click to get that traffic.

        I just checked the Google External Keyword Tool. People are currently paying $1.24 for the singular and $1.48 for the plural.

        So it would seem that this is still a profitable keyword?

        In the #1 spot, I only got 42 clicks per month, with an average of a 6% closing ratio, netting me 2-2.5 sales per month. And the average gross sale was $400 with a profit margin of 15%.

        How good is your math?

        So I earned about $1,000 per month gross, with a profit margin of $150...

        And I spent approximately $4000 to get that free traffic...

        In the end, I would have had to continue offering that service for 27 months (2 yrs and 3 months), just to break even!!


        Anyone who claims that FREE traffic is cheaper than PAID traffic is not doing their math right...
        Thank you for that great illustration, Bill! When you explain things with hard numbers it makes it extremely hard for the SEO warriors to defend their position and stance. While it's all fine and dandy to get ranked via SEO for free, people often discount the amount of time needed to get there (and also how much their time is worth).

        They can argue till they're blue in the face about how the rankings may stick for many months or even a few years, but the hard facts are unless you get extremely lucky and have the perfect storm in terms of keyword selection and a landing page/product offer that converts very well, it may very well take many, many months before they're able to recoup their SEO cost in terms of time and effort!

        Many people don't seem to realize that there's really no such thing as "free" traffic, and traffic will cost you either time or money. Period. There's a tendency for many to undervalue their time by a lot, and perhaps this is why you so many people floundering and not making significant money after many months, simply because they chose to go the "free" route?

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Wesley Atkins
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Tee hee hee...

        Don't you realize that getting that free traffic from Google can often be very expensive?

        Would you rather test your sales copy on $100 or $300 of Google Adword traffic, OR $4,000 "free" search engine traffic?

        When I last ran my SEO firm, I insisted that clients had experience with PPC before coming to me.

        Otherwise, I would risk doing them a great disservice by letting them spend $5,000 per month with me on keywords that could not convert traffic to sales!!

        Let me tell you a story...

        I have always used Article Marketing to ensure my SEO success...

        There was one keyword that I thought would be extremely profitable for me to pursue.

        I spent several months of my time chasing that one keyword... It had to be a good one -- my competitors were spending $2 per click for that traffic!!

        After about 4 months of heavy link building and more than two dozen high-quality syndicated articles, I grabbed #1 for the singular and plural of the keyword.

        Now, I did not pay any money to get that #1 spot in Google.

        I only spent my time, and you are thinking that your time is FREE, right?

        I spent probably 100 man-hours to get that number one ranking in Google for the singular and plural of the target keyword.

        How much is your time really worth to you?

        If you are a minimum wage earner, then that 100 hours is about $800. At my avg hourly earning at that time, it was closer to $4000 invested in that one keyword phrase.

        But I got #1 in Google, and I did not have to pay $2 per click to get that traffic.

        I just checked the Google External Keyword Tool. People are currently paying $1.24 for the singular and $1.48 for the plural.

        So it would seem that this is still a profitable keyword?

        In the #1 spot, I only got 42 clicks per month, with an average of a 6% closing ratio, netting me 2-2.5 sales per month. And the average gross sale was $400 with a profit margin of 15%.

        How good is your math?

        So I earned about $1,000 per month gross, with a profit margin of $150...

        And I spent approximately $4000 to get that free traffic...

        In the end, I would have had to continue offering that service for 27 months (2 yrs and 3 months), just to break even!!


        Anyone who claims that FREE traffic is cheaper than PAID traffic is not doing their math right...
        I learnt this the harsh way too...

        Now I test every keyword for myself with PPC before embarking on any SEO campaign... :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
    Hi Eric,

    Between the OP and post #8 you made the subtle switch between statistics based upon 'everyone I know' to -

    97% make money NOT doing SEO
    3% make money with SEO

    However, it seems that 97% of newbie marketers go for... you got it, SEO!

    And then they wonder..."where's all the money?"
    Where did the 'people I know' bit get lost along the way?

    Perhaps the SEO people don't need to network or be prominent on forums, whereas those in the IM syndicate do, because that's how their system works?

    Perhaps the way it works for SEO people is that they keep very quiet, perhaps network quietly between themselves and don't sell their secrets?

    Perhaps they avoid talking to people who are in the business of selling SEO secrets and thereby ruining them?
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    Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    It would make perfect sense that very big earners don't use SEO. Instead they leverage other people who have done SEO by getting ad spots on their sites etc.

    However in the beginning, SEO is an effective way of getting started cheaply.

    I imagine big earners don't design their own graphics, code HTML themselves, or do their own bookkeeping.

    However running the shop yourself and keeping a tight budget is essential for many starting out, so SEO is a great way to get started.

    My analogy is SEO is like a wheelbarrow: Richard Branson started off his career selling items from a wheelbarrow. Now I don't know many multi-millionaires that use a wheelbarrow to get their sales, but it doesn't mean it's a bad idea, and it doesn't mean it can't be a great stepping stone to bigger success.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

      It would make perfect sense that very big earners don't use SEO. Instead they leverage other people who have done SEO by getting ad spots on their sites etc.

      However in the beginning, SEO is an effective way of getting started cheaply.

      I imagine big earners don't design their own graphics, code HTML themselves, or do their own bookkeeping.

      However running the shop yourself and keeping a tight budget is essential for many starting out, so SEO is a great way to get started.

      My analogy is SEO is like a wheelbarrow: Richard Branson started off his career selling items from a wheelbarrow. Now I don't know many multi-millionaires that use a wheelbarrow to get their sales, but it doesn't mean it's a bad idea, and it doesn't mean it can't be a great stepping stone to bigger success.
      Of course, that's not to say SEO cannot be leveraged effectively to make big money. One way you could do it is by taking on many offline clients and outsourcing all the grunt work (though again, we come back to the issue of money, which will definitely be needed here).

      You could also outsource the creation and SEO of "money" sites on a massive scale, so that could be tremendously profitable too. The issue here is that many of the SEO advocates here think in DIY terms, and while SEO could be leveraged to make tremendous profits you have to know how to leverage it effectively. Doing all the work yourself is a recipe for burn out and mediocre results, in the majority of cases.
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  • Profile picture of the author DannyDarwin
    Eric,

    You don't know my friend. He makes about $100k/month only from his sites. It's 100% information-type of websites, monetized with ads from AdSense and other networks.

    His formula? Find an expert on some topic by reading print and magazines, call that person, offer them a 50/50 deal. The expert writes the content, my friend sets up the website (10 minutes) and does the SEO.

    He keeps telling me... "You would be amazed if you knew how much these experts appreciate my business model, I basically give them an additional source of income from doing what they already love to do: write quality content."

    And he will never write an ebook about that... he is making enough money already. From SEO.

    I guess you're down to 96.5% now... lolz
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    • Profile picture of the author theemperor
      Originally Posted by DannyDarwin View Post

      Eric,

      You don't know my friend. He makes about $100k/month only from his sites. It's 100% information-type of websites, monetized with ads from AdSense and other networks.

      His formula? Find an expert on some topic by reading print and magazines, call that person, offer them a 50/50 deal. The expert writes the content, my friend sets up the website (10 minutes) and does the SEO.

      He keeps telling me... "You would be amazed if you knew how much these experts appreciate my business model, I basically give them an additional source of income from doing what they already love to do: write quality content."

      And he will never write an ebook about that... he is making enough money already. From SEO.

      I guess you're down to 96.5% now... lolz
      Shhhh! You're only supposed to say stuff like this in the war room!
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by DannyDarwin View Post

      Eric,

      You don't know my friend. He makes about $100k/month only from his sites. It's 100% information-type of websites, monetized with ads from AdSense and other networks.

      His formula? Find an expert on some topic by reading print and magazines, call that person, offer them a 50/50 deal. The expert writes the content, my friend sets up the website (10 minutes) and does the SEO.

      He keeps telling me... "You would be amazed if you knew how much these experts appreciate my business model, I basically give them an additional source of income from doing what they already love to do: write quality content."

      And he will never write an ebook about that... he is making enough money already. From SEO.

      I guess you're down to 96.5% now... lolz
      Do you know how many sites he had to put up to reach that figure though? And surely you don't think he does all the SEO work himself, without some major outsourcing occurring for the backlinks?
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      • Profile picture of the author DannyDarwin
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Do you know how many sites he had to put up to reach that figure though? And surely you don't think he does all the SEO work himself, without some major outsourcing occurring for the backlinks?
        He has 400 sites. He doesn't outsource anything. The quality of his sites are real magnets for organic backlinks.

        Some more details to the "formula", nothing magic about it...

        When he launches a new site with one of his experts, he already knows which keywords will bring in traffic.

        Organic search -> Traffic -> Quality content -> Shared and backlinked organically by real people -> Better ranking -> Organic search... on and on and on...
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by DannyDarwin View Post

          He has 400 sites. He doesn't outsource anything. The quality of his sites are real magnets for organic backlinks.

          Some more details to the "formula", nothing magic about it...

          When he launches a new site with one of his experts, he already knows which keywords will bring in traffic.

          Organic search -> Traffic -> Quality content -> Shared and backlinked organically by real people -> Better ranking -> Organic search... on and on and on...
          Well, if he doesn't outsource anything and he's managing 400 sites together with their SEO he surely didn't build it up overnight, and I'm sure it took a lot of time and effort especially in building JV relationships with the experts who provide content for his site. While the actual construction of his sites doesn't take much time, I'm sure the JV part was a lot more time consuming and involved than you can imagine. Don't forget also that he is giving up 50% of his profits to his JV partners, who are essentially being the major traffic providers here (due to the valuable content they're providing, which are backlink magnets as you've described).
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          • Profile picture of the author DannyDarwin
            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            Well, if he doesn't outsource anything and he's managing 400 sites together with their SEO he surely didn't build it up overnight, and I'm sure it took a lot of time and effort especially in building JV relationships with the experts who provide content for his site. While the actual construction of his sites doesn't take much time, I'm sure the JV part was a lot more time consuming and involved than you can imagine. Don't forget also that he is giving up 50% of his profits to his JV partners, who are essentially being the major traffic providers here (due to the valuable content they're providing, which are backlink magnets as you've described).
            You are absolutely right. Time and effort = money... if you have a solid business model.

            I do know how much time he uses for building and maintaining relations with his experts. He loves every second of it. He would do it even if he only made 10% of what he is actually making. He is not doing it for the money, although he does enjoy the cash I think the word "passionate" would fit well into the context.

            He is not greedy. 50% works well for him.
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    • Profile picture of the author thriftgirl62
      Originally Posted by DannyDarwin View Post

      Eric,

      He keeps telling me... "You would be amazed if you knew how much these experts appreciate my business model, I basically give them an additional source of income from doing what they already love to do: write quality content."

      And he will never write an ebook about that... he is making enough money already. From SEO.

      I guess you're down to 96.5% now... lolz
      Everything has a price and FREE is designed to fool you into taking the first step and then string you along until hope is your best friend. Free is a long roller coaster ride and if you like the ride, don't be afraid to get on
      Have fun dodging bullets and pissing off the free-leaders when you don't perform according to the freemium plan they signed you up for.

      You're not making any money but you spend so much time on the free-coaster, you never noticed your wife left until you couldn't find the dog. But it all works out for the best when you realize you never would have met your 2nd wife if you weren't having so much fun doing what you wanted.

      AND that's the whole point.
      The reason that guy makes money is because he's smart enough to find/hire PE0PLE and then "give them an additional source of income from doing what they already love to do" and it doesn't matter WHAT people do - it only matters WHY they do it.

      If SEO is the reason you get up every morning, then SEO makes you money because money is always a result not a reason.

      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan
      The problem with this whole thread, if we are talking about newbies, you have to put yourself in a newbies situation.

      What do you do if you have...

      No website

      No traffic

      No list

      No product

      No name value

      You have NO EXCUSE in this freeconomy with freemium powered by free for lifers.

      A newbie has to start somewhere and a lot of opportunities aren't an option especially if they don't have a lot of money to gamble or take a risk with. Mama didn't leave us all a trust fund.
      FREE Websites with Reseller Hosting for as long as it takes you to get some money coming in - ZERO - not a single penny - unless you want to buy your own domain, but you don't have to. I'll GIVE you one - just ask.

      FREE Webstore with mainstream office and computer products drop shipped with seriously GREAT customer service and 30-day credit terms if you qualify.

      LIST BUILDING - go to http://www.ez-1.net/mako and promote the idea of helping people. There are no affiliate links anywhere but that's where I could use some help - I've only emailed that list (no idea how many are on it now) once this year. NOT GOOD. If you want more proof that nobody is perfect, I can do that but it's no fun so I won't!!

      5,000-7,000 Verified Backlinks starting at only $37 - Has the price of all those fancy back links gone way down in the last month or so? Is it my imagination or has there been an upheaval of back link fire sales with abnormally low prices?

      The answer to that hot topic is perfect for this new blog I just put here:
      www.gurubull****.com The last four digits won't show up. Hint: 4 letter word after the word BULLs--t is that enough hinting? Bring your favorite niche - whatever you love to do - and you can have a keyword rich domain with matching website email and stuff....all for 1-figure, and that's it. Need Cpanel hosting to go with that? Just ask and don't be scared. Life is too short to play it safe - Les Brown says: You can't get out of life alive...so quit trying to.
      Signature

      I retired in 2005 at 43 and now I give away websites like these for FREE [hosting excluded]

      When you make at least $100+ per month, we split the profit 80/20 and YOU get the 80% Until then, you keep 100% and I'll help you drive traffic, get backlinks and put the domain in your name too!
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    The problem with this whole thread, if we are talking about newbies, you have to put yourself in a newbies situation.

    What do you do if you have...

    No website

    No traffic

    No list

    No product

    No name value

    A newbie has to start somewhere and a lot of opportunities aren't an option especially if they don't have a lot of money to gamble or take a risk with. Mama didn't leave us all a trust fund.

    You want a newbie to go out an buy targeted traffic? They may as well flush that money down the toilet.

    Not everybody can sit down and write an ebook or create a product. It doesn't matter anyway, they have no list and no traffic so it's not going to do them any good.

    SEO is affordable for most, just takes time and effort. If they are motivated they are busy reading and learning while they slave away with forum profiles and blog commenting.

    Most SEO driven sites may never amount to anything more than beer money but beer money is better than no money. Instead of a half rack they can invest that money into adsense, hire a writer, buy fiverr gigs, start outsourcing or pick up some PLR to resell. And during this time their small site should be growing along with their list.

    It all starts somewhere.

    I'm sure we all have our own newbie stories and I'm also pretty sure nobody handed any of us a million member list to get up n' running with.
    Signature

    I'm all about that bass.

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    • Profile picture of the author kakaboo
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      The problem with this whole thread, if we are talking about newbies, you have to put yourself in a newbies situation.

      A newbie has to start somewhere and a lot of opportunities aren't an option especially if they don't have a lot of money to gamble or take a risk with. Mama didn't leave us all a trust fund.

      You want a newbie to go out an buy targeted traffic? They may as well flush that money down the toilet.

      Not everybody can sit down and write an ebook or create a product. It doesn't matter anyway, they have no list and no traffic so it's not going to do them any good.

      SEO is affordable for most, just takes time and effort. If they are motivated they are busy reading and learning while they slave away with forum profiles and blog commenting.

      Most SEO driven sites may never amount to anything more than beer money but beer money is better than no money. Instead of a half rack they can invest that money into adsense, hire a writer, buy fiverr gigs, start outsourcing or pick up some PLR to resell. And during this time their small site should be growing along with their list.

      It all starts somewhere.

      I'm sure we all have our own newbie stories and I'm also pretty sure nobody handed any of us a million member list to get up n' running with.
      I think, that's the main problem here.

      Why does everyone think that free traffic can only come from SEO? It's an endless chain of cycle... the newbie will get sick and tired of building links manually and look into automated programs/softwares like article submission software/scrapebox/senuke/UAW/AMA and the like.... and you are telling me they're free?

      I am sure 99% of people who start out IM will invest in at least a paid software or service to help them with their backlinking efforts.. which makes SEO not really that free as one would think after all...

      Check out Splork's post,
      Screw Your Backlinking Strategy
      there are many other ways to get free traffic other than SEO if one thinks hard enough... but of course, it takes a lot more work and effort, which is what people don't want you to know.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      A newbie has to start somewhere and a lot of opportunities aren't an option especially if they don't have a lot of money to gamble or take a risk with. Mama didn't leave us all a trust fund.

      You want a newbie to go out an buy targeted traffic? They may as well flush that money down the toilet.

      Not everybody can sit down and write an ebook or create a product. It doesn't matter anyway, they have no list and no traffic so it's not going to do them any good.

      SEO is affordable for most, just takes time and effort. If they are motivated they are busy reading and learning while they slave away with forum profiles and blog commenting.

      Most SEO driven sites may never amount to anything more than beer money but beer money is better than no money. Instead of a half rack they can invest that money into adsense, hire a writer, buy fiverr gigs, start outsourcing or pick up some PLR to resell. And during this time their small site should be growing along with their list.

      It all starts somewhere.

      I'm sure we all have our own newbie stories and I'm also pretty sure nobody handed any of us a million member list to get up n' running with.

      I wasn't born with a trust fund either. I had to fight and scrape to get where I am today.

      I also did not have the benefit of a place like this to teach me the pros and cons, benefits and pitfalls of the road I was about to take.

      When I started online trying to make money, there was no Google, Paypal, Ebay, Warrior Forum, Ezine Articles or any of the other things we all take for granted today.

      The real problem most people have now and going forward with building an online business is that they have been convinced by others that SEO is the best, most profitable way forward.

      But SEO is only the best, most profitable way forward, if people give no value to their own time.

      As you said:

      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      SEO is affordable for most, just takes time and effort. If they are motivated they are busy reading and learning while they slave away with forum profiles and blog commenting.

      Another thing most fail to comprehend is that SEO is developed through an assortment of "link building" methods.

      Link building utilizes any of nearly 3 dozen other traffic strategies, including: article marketing, forum marketing, social media marketing, link directories, blog commenting, blogging, etc., etc.

      Most people are so narrowly focused on the end goal of SEO that they will forget to do those link building tasks in a more effective way.

      * For example, most people chasing SEO will post in forums with a bunch of "me too" posts, which causes them to miss out on the real potential value of forum marketing.

      I cut my teeth on forum marketing.

      * For example, most people chasing SEO will do article marketing with a bunch of spun articles that offer no real value to the external community, just so that they can get those links for SEO. Once again, this kind of thinking causes people to overlook the front end potential value of good article marketing practices backed by good value content.

      After doing forum marketing profitably for some time, article marketing was the next logical step forward. When I started doing article marketing, the only option was to create valuable content that others wanted to publish. It would be another couple of years before article marketing would begin to benefit SEO.

      More than a decade later, I still do article marketing the way I did it in the beginning, offering value to publishers and their audiences. While article marketing can improve my SEO, SEO is the gravy down the road. But in the meantime, I consider an article a failure if it fails to find a publisher and/or to generate direct sales within a couple of weeks of having written it.

      I want my article marketing to pay for itself now, and later. But if it doesn't make money now, I consider it a complete waste of energy.

      There are more effective, less time consuming methods of simply building links.

      If you want to build links, do those other things.

      If you want to generate sales now, focus on giving publishers and their audiences valuable content in your article marketing. I spent four hours on my last article in the creation and distribution phase. I made $1200 direct product sales for the effort. So the process returned to me $300 per hour, and articles will have a lifespan of years in which they can continue generating real dollars for my business.

      My point is that if you are going to do those things that are necessary to create SEO value, focus on making money on the front end as well.

      Don't fall for the delusional idea that SEO is the only thing that matters. SEO may never pay dividends, and you really could go bust waiting for Google to deliver the traffic to your website.

      So focus on those things that can make you money on the front end, and count your blessings if and when the SEO value of your link building begins to pay off for you.

      In my recent traffic report (shown in my signature), I document 35 traffic methods. 28 of them can be done for free. 33 of them can be outsourced. And I have used 31 of them in my own business.

      Many of them can help with your SEO, but once again, if you are not using those traffic strategies to their full benefit on the front end, you may not be around to count your blessings when Google starts to value your website enough to rank it well.
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Eric, in 8 years of marketing online, I have never relied on SEO and
        backlinks for my traffic.

        You won't even find most of my sites in the SERPs until like page 20 if you
        stood on your head and whistled Dixie.

        I guess I'm just one of those other guys...sort of.

        See, I don't pay for a lot of traffic either. Oh some, but not much.

        And affiliates?

        I can count them on, um, hmmm...zero hands.

        I guess I really am an oddball.

        Maybe there's a third way.
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        • Profile picture of the author blackhawkup
          Banned
          just a little insight into what it is that you do would be extremely valuable! because im stuck thinking that seo is completely useless after reading this thread!


          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Eric, in 8 years of marketing online, I have never relied on SEO and
          backlinks for my traffic.

          You won't even find most of my sites in the SERPs until like page 20 if you
          stood on your head and whistled Dixie.

          I guess I'm just one of those other guys...sort of.

          See, I don't pay for a lot of traffic either. Oh some, but not much.

          And affiliates?

          I can count them on, um, hmmm...zero hands.

          I guess I really am an oddball.

          Maybe there's a third way.
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          • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
            Originally Posted by Rich Jackson View Post

            just a little insight into what it is that you do would be extremely valuable! because im stuck thinking that seo is completely useless after reading this thread!
            Rich,

            I did not want to paint that picture. I know I did paint that picture, but really did not want to. SEO is not useless at all. It is a very practical, useful, viable way to earn a living online. It is.

            Although I am saying that there are few I know who do quite well with SEO, and more make most doing other forms of traffic, it's just to point out and hit home that SEO just like anything else is not the magic bullet everyone gravitates to... and that it might not be the best decision for newbies.

            I read a thread where everyone was saying that SEO was their favorite way to drive traffic and I called BS! in my head. I wanted to say that the entire thread was a lie. It's not a lie, but in my head, most of the thread does not make any money. I know, it's just my thoughts because after working with hundreds of newbies at point blank range, they almost ALL go after SEO and they almost ALL make very little money.

            Basically... there are four main areas of IM:

            -- product creation
            -- technical
            -- traffic
            -- conversions

            I ask my VIP clients which of the four are they best at. MOST say:

            -- technical
            -- or product creation

            Rarely (RARELY) do they ever say (Traffic and Conversions). Because if they did say that was their strengths, they would not need me. They would already be making a lot of money. Traffic and conversions are the massive challenges for most marketers.

            AND, when I see that 97% of the people I know who make six figures or more (including myself) do so NOT with SEO, and when I see most who dont make money gravitate towards SEO... I draw my own conclusions.

            After four years of that, I'm convinced.

            After knowing severall millionaire marketers, I"m convinced.

            After generating over a million myself, I'm convinced.

            I'm convinced that it's much quicker, easier and lucrative to drive traffic in other ways first. I'm not saying free traffic does not work, I'm saying that SEO is too hard for newbies and takes too damn long... and because of that, many-many are failing... when they dont have to.

            In 15 minutes, you can tell if your site is converting. Compare that with six months of SEO. Most newbies would quit by then and lucky to have made more than $300 in any one given month.

            Imagine for that same six months, integrating your offer with other sites. If you just spent the same amount of effort and time and resources on "integrating" your offers with other people's sites (in their backend), I can almost guarantee you, you'll be making FAR more money (quicker) than by killing yourself with SEO.

            Look at it this way...

            If you spent that time integrating your offers into other sites (thank you pages or download pages), you'd be getting "buyers" as traffic and not freebie seekers and tire kickers who are clicking around all over Internet land for free information (hard to convert into buyers). You'd already have buyers hitting your site. You'd have people who have already spent money... which is just as good as cash.

            I'd say (IMO) if you took two different newbies:

            Bob and Sue.

            Bob does the integration technique (free traffic still) and Sue does the SEO route, both for six months, Bob would be making six figures easily and Sue... well, Sue would have hired me as her mentor and she'd be frustrated and when I asked her how she's driven traffic so far, and she says SEO... I'd chalk her up as the countless examples of people I switched from SEO to other forms of traffic, for quicker results.

            If you all knew, not trying to brag either, but if you all KNEW how many people I've switched with positive results away from SEO... you might not look at my thread the same way as now. You'd see it as me shouting from the roof tops... THERE'S A BETTER WAY!

            SEO works though and if you've spent a great deal of time on it, I'm not saying stop. You decide and if you can tell me you are doing much better with SEO and are making good money, I'd be extremely happy for you. Seriously.

            However, so far, not one person has jumped on this thread and convinced me or the readers of this thread otherwise so far. ANd if someone does attempt, check to see if they are selling a current WSO on SEO or backlinking. lol

            Now, some SEO studs might be laughing to themselves and cheerleading me to continue, because of less competition for them... but those people who are truly successful at SEO to the tune of six figures or beyond... well IMO, they're rare.

            hence: 3%

            My made up, non factual, opinionated, figures.

            Eric Louviere
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            • Profile picture of the author iva
              Great post!

              What are the other forms of not-SEO traffic in addition to the one you just mentioned? Or it's a million dollar question?

              Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

              Rich,

              Bob does the integration technique (free traffic still) and Sue does the SEO route, both for six months, Bob would be making six figures easily and Sue... well, Sue would have hired me as her mentor and she'd be frustrated and when I asked her how she's driven traffic so far, and she says SEO... I'd chalk her up as the countless examples of people I switched from SEO to other forms of traffic, for quicker results.

              Eric Louviere
              Signature
              Send me a PM if you have any questions.

              "Ask simple questions to get simple answers"
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        • Profile picture of the author dvduval
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Eric, in 8 years of marketing online, I have never relied on SEO and
          backlinks for my traffic.

          You won't even find most of my sites in the SERPs until like page 20 if you
          stood on your head and whistled Dixie.

          I guess I'm just one of those other guys...sort of.

          See, I don't pay for a lot of traffic either. Oh some, but not much.

          And affiliates?

          I can count them on, um, hmmm...zero hands.

          I guess I really am an oddball.

          Maybe there's a third way.
          I would assume your strategy has something to do with actually helping people so much so that they actually want to come back and tell their friends as well. Get that part right and all the other stuff is trivial really.
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    • Profile picture of the author Barcelona19
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      The problem with this whole thread, if we are talking about newbies, you have to put yourself in a newbies situation.

      What do you do if you have...

      No website

      No traffic

      No list

      No product

      No name value

      A newbie has to start somewhere and a lot of opportunities aren't an option especially if they don't have a lot of money to gamble or take a risk with. Mama didn't leave us all a trust fund.

      You want a newbie to go out an buy targeted traffic? They may as well flush that money down the toilet.

      Not everybody can sit down and write an ebook or create a product. It doesn't matter anyway, they have no list and no traffic so it's not going to do them any good.

      SEO is affordable for most, just takes time and effort. If they are motivated they are busy reading and learning while they slave away with forum profiles and blog commenting.

      Most SEO driven sites may never amount to anything more than beer money but beer money is better than no money. Instead of a half rack they can invest that money into adsense, hire a writer, buy fiverr gigs, start outsourcing or pick up some PLR to resell. And during this time their small site should be growing along with their list.

      It all starts somewhere.

      I'm sure we all have our own newbie stories and I'm also pretty sure nobody handed any of us a million member list to get up n' running with.
      I agree with this, SEO allowed me to learn about stuff for free, and you should only pay when you are 100% or at least 90% comfortable with what you're doing, you know what you need to pay for, and what you can do yourself. Besides, I find SEO challenging and fun at the same time, and I'd probably waste my time watching football or reading about useless stuff anyways, so I don't consider my time to be as valuable as others, I have an everyday job in which I wait for customers to come, so in the time that customers are not in the shop, I just SEO away!
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    Out of everyone I know in this business who makes a lot of money, only a couple focus on SEO, backlinks, etc. as their primary way to get traffic and earn six figures or more. I can count on one hand the six figure earners from SEO, backlinks, etc.

    Maybe I just dont know those people.

    I do know a lot of people in this business though.

    But, maybe I know all the *others*.

    However, most of the people I come into contact with who are NOT making money, well, most of them DO focus on SEO, backlinks, etc. It's interesting. I'm not saying SEO, backlinks, etc does not work. Of course it works.

    But, when 97% of the people I know make their money with paid traffic and affiliates... and only 3% earn their money from SEO and backlinks... I cant help (for the sake of being blunt) scratch my head.

    THEN, when 97% of the people I come across who are NOT making money focus on those methods for traffic... I scratch my head again.

    I know, I know, there will be the heard of folks claim they make their big bucks with SEO, back-links, etc on here... but I dont know them. Maybe they are too busy doing SEO stuff to build relationships so I dont get to know any of them.

    Or, maybe... just maybe... since I've had countless students *switch* from SEO to other forms of traffic... and then start earning money... maybe, just maybe... that SEO stuff is not the answer.

    hmm

    Let the flame begin

    ~Eric
    I don't know anyone who voted for Obama, and yet, he's president. Go figure.
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  • Profile picture of the author DannyDarwin
    Perhaps it is based on some incorrect assumptions. Just guessing but...

    1. "If I do SEO, all my efforts will get me free traffic forever by locking in that sweet position on the first page of Google"

    and...

    2. "Paid traffic is like an on/off switch. If I stop paying, I will go out of business"

    Conclusion... SEO is never forever. Paid traffic is supposed to convert and bring money to the table, which is to be reinvested in more paid traffic.

    Just my two cents...
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  • Profile picture of the author Wesley Atkins
    This is going to sound strange from an SEO guy but I completely agree with you Eric...

    I've been in SEO for 10 years and made very good money with it, but after doing product creation for the last few and learning the strategies from guys like...

    Jason Fladlien
    Lee McIntyre
    Andre Chaperon
    Brent Hall

    ...I can see how tapping into other people's assets...

    Lists
    JV/Affiliates

    ...is a much quicker route to six figures as you say :-)

    You can't beat testing your sales page instantly with PPC, improving your conversion and sales funnel to squeeze the maximum EPC, then contacting JV's...
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  • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    I do know a lot of people in this business though.
    SEO probably does have it's most limited application selling stuff to other IM'ers. I wouldn't waste my time trying to build a Clickbank product review sites and SEO it. However, IM product buyers are only a tiny portion of the overall online marketplace.

    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    I know, I know, there will be the heard of folks claim they make their big bucks with SEO, back-links, etc on here... but I dont know them. Maybe they are too busy doing SEO stuff to build relationships so I dont get to know any of them.
    Of course you don't know them. Most of them stay very quiet to protect their business. They generally don't sell SEO services or ebooks on SEO or work in the IM niche so they don't have a need to build relationships with other IM'ers. I know I should keep a lower profile myself but, like my namesake in my avatar, sometimes I have a big mouth.
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  • Profile picture of the author pavionjsl
    Yes PPC is the best way to go. Once you understand it, master it, you make money. But a daunting task for the 97% without the time and resources to do so. So using SEO they hope for lightning.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    I know only one Internet Marketing Millionaire (which is probably one more than most ) and he does PPC, SEO, Media Buys, Webshops and Product Creation.

    He'll usually begin by testing a new campaign with PPC. If it shows promise, then he'll tweak and test to see if it's profitable. If it is profitable then he launches some kind of SEO campaign as well.

    I'd love to get started making money with PPC, but I can't help but feel that I'm up against an army of people with huge budgets and therefore lower click prices. At least in SEO, I feel like I am not that far behind the best.

    Anyway, when is your WSO coming out, I'll consider buying it
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    • Profile picture of the author Wesley Atkins
      Originally Posted by JackPowers View Post

      I'd love to get started making money with PPC, but I can't help but feel that I'm up against an army of people with huge budgets...
      You'll struggle to make good consistent income from PPC selling a single product or for a single affiliate commission... and this is what most people do when they approach PPC and that's why they give up...

      The trick is to sell your own products and have a higher EPC than your competitors so that it's more profitable for you than your competition...

      The higher EPC you have, the more you can pay per click and the more advertising opportunities open up for you...

      How you get a higher EPC is through multiple offers, upsells, cross sells, downsells, continuity sales...

      ...and a whole heap of testing and tracking conversion

      You only need one slick high EPC sales funnel and you've got a lucrative income on your hands, not to mention affiliates will bite your hand off to promote your products...
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      • Profile picture of the author kasimarie
        Originally Posted by Wesley Atkins View Post

        You'll struggle to make good consistent income from PPC selling a single product or for a single affiliate commission... and this is what most people do when they approach PPC and that's why they give up...

        The trick is to sell your own products and have a higher EPC than your competitors so that it's more profitable for you than your competition...

        The higher EPC you have, the more you can pay per click and the more advertising opportunities open up for you...

        How you get a higher EPC is through multiple offers, upsells, cross sells, downsells, continuity sales...

        ...and a whole heap of testing and tracking conversion

        You only need one slick high EPC sales funnel and you've got a lucrative income on your hands, not to mention affiliates will bite your hand off to promote your products...
        Good point about PPC not being good for a single product - especially an affiliate product. Most people starting out (myself included) try selling an affiliate product by setting up a site and driving them to the affiliate site. AdWords does not want you sending people off your site to another site - it's against their "Site Policy." So unless you're selling your own product, AdWords isn't necessarily going to be the way to go.
        Signature

        "It's about a wise guy with a big mouth and even bigger dreams."

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        • Profile picture of the author davidmeeonline
          I guess it is the end goal which will determine what road you take to make your money!

          My personal goal is to get out of this 6 till 5.30 job i'm working, and stay home and make my money.

          Then my goal is to wake up and see the thousands of dollars I made while asleep!

          From what I can see, if you want a very well paid Job, then get into Joint Ventures, PPC etc.

          If you want a business which generates income without constant input, (once setup of course) then SEO seems to be the go.

          I hope this is generally true, because this is where i'm headed, and I plan to spend years getting to where some of you already are, with a big list of assets which all are making money for me!

          I would be very interested to know if anyone has actually done this? Once you have $5k or $10k a month coming in, can you leave it all for 3 months and go on a holiday, or will it all fall apart without you?
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  • Profile picture of the author Slin
    I don't get what the arguments about.

    SEO is just another way to get traffic to whatever you are offering.

    Are you saying that the people you know who get seo traffic don't make money?

    Or don't make a lot of money?

    If so I wonder what they are doing wrong.

    I just use seo to build up a list and then jv with other people, seems to work fine for making money.

    I dunno maybe SEO isn't for everyone, i'm certainly not making millions or anything so maybe i'm the wrong guy to comment on this

    But I will say, I don't get that SEO is supposed to be difficult, so far i'm finding it pretty easy in fact...

    I think the number one thing with SEO is you have to have patience, which a lot of people don't really have.

    Takes months to see that traffic

    Edit: Wanted to respond to the post above mine too.

    Yes! Ugh, I find out all about all the great things about product creation and PPC and all sorts of fun stuff.

    Then adwords banned me (still don't know why, they just say that my business plan isn't compatible wit theirs)

    But that's great advise, really, I made really good money before I got banned once I forgot affiliate ppc and focused on my product.
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  • Profile picture of the author rhab
    I kinda chuckle at this thread a bit because I do in fact make my income from seo alone. Some of the matter of fact statements made within this thread definitely make me chuckle. And honestly, my first impression of this thread was simply it was about seo bashing and opinions that "paid traffic" is better and easier than "free traffic". OK, so what... You like paid vs. free better, good for you. There are plenty of people making good money from seo. Can you make it faster, can you make more, doesn't matter. people do what works for them and makes them happy. Then there are the rest who are still learning, struggling, and driving on and will some day do the same whether with ppc or seo...

    That being said, I would agree with you to a degree =p Although I have chosen free traffic to make my income, I know ppc is quicker and can be quite lucrative.

    However, it's only easier when you know what you're doing and when in fact you're making more money than your spending. Remember, that a LOT of beginners are getting into it because they don't have any spare money.

    As I started out, I did look into ppc and got burned. I didn't know what i was doing and I was spending way too much money on buying courses from people who I found out didn't really know what they were doing either. Big surprise right?

    Unfortunately, I probably didn't spend enough time with it because I didn't get lucky enough to find the information and learn the knowledge I needed to in fact be successful with paid traffic.

    What I did find easy was seo/free traffic. I knew what was needed to rank and I had no problems making sites that converted, both through affiliate marketing and adsense.

    Make no mistake, I paid a ton of money learning to do that as well, but in the end that paid off and I qucikly made all the money I invested back and then some. So now, free traffic has simply been what I do.

    I would definitely like to get into ppc, but I've got comfortable and am still gun shy. And simply doing what works for me. I haven't found the need at this stage to go back to paid traffic. I drove one of my affiliate managers crazy because he would always say you need to get into ppc. I was doing extremely well with particular campaigns and he said my earnigs would skyrocket with ppc. My answer was always ya I know...

    Anyway, thats my two cents. Threads like this kinda bother me. You all know as well as I do, that the large percentage of beginners fail. Doesn't matter what it is, ppc, seo, whatever... What bothers me about threads like this are in regards to the beginners who read them. With the matter of fact statements, suggestive statements about the crazy amounts of money being made, how easy it is, and mysterious statements with no hint of detail, beginners get very easily distracted and doubt their current efforts. It makes their heads spin even more and contributes to their failure in the end.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree in general with the whole paid vs. free issue. However, instead of patting each other on the back and drinking each other's kool aid because you as a matter of fact are the select few who have the golden nugget of marketing, how about including some sources, guides, courses, you would recommend to those NOT in the know so they can learn and avoid most of the bs out here. I would even check out your suggestions because I know the golden egg is there and ppc is still on my to learn list =p
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    • Profile picture of the author kakaboo
      And I chuckle at your reply, because this thread is not about PAID TRAFFIC VS FREE TRAFFIC VIA SEO, but rather about there are a lot more other ways to get free traffic other than SEO and how most newcomers get stuck in the driving traffic to their website phase.. why? because they are stuck with SEO... throwing darts against a wall where they dont even know where it is and hoping that they stick!

      Sure, SEO is great and cool, and definitely the best and the passive one for the long term... but it certainly isn't FREE to get there

      Originally Posted by rhab View Post

      I kinda chuckle at this thread a bit because I do in fact make my income from seo alone. Some of the matter of fact statements made within this thread definitely make me chuckle. And honestly, my first impression of this thread was simply it was about seo bashing and opinions that "paid traffic" is better and easier than "free traffic". OK, so what... You like paid vs. free better, good for you. There are plenty of people making good money from seo. Can you make it faster, can you make more, doesn't matter. people do what works for them and makes them happy. Then there are the rest who are still learning, struggling, and driving on and will some day do the same whether with ppc or seo...

      That being said, I would agree with you to a degree =p Although I have chosen free traffic to make my income, I know ppc is quicker and can be quite lucrative.

      However, it's only easier when you know what you're doing and when in fact you're making more money than your spending. Remember, that a LOT of beginners are getting into it because they don't have any spare money.

      As I started out, I did look into ppc and got burned. I didn't know what i was doing and I was spending way too much money on buying courses from people who I found out didn't really know what they were doing either. Big surprise right?

      Unfortunately, I probably didn't spend enough time with it because I didn't get lucky enough to find the information and learn the knowledge I needed to in fact be successful with paid traffic.

      What I did find easy was seo/free traffic. I knew what was needed to rank and I had no problems making sites that converted, both through affiliate marketing and adsense.

      Make no mistake, I paid a ton of money learning to do that as well, but in the end that paid off and I qucikly made all the money I invested back and then some. So now, free traffic has simply been what I do.

      I would definitely like to get into ppc, but I've got comfortable and am still gun shy. And simply doing what works for me. I haven't found the need at this stage to go back to paid traffic. I drove one of my affiliate managers crazy because he would always say you need to get into ppc. I was doing extremely well with particular campaigns and he said my earnigs would skyrocket with ppc. My answer was always ya I know...

      Anyway, thats my two cents. Threads like this kinda bother me. You all know as well as I do, that the large percentage of beginners fail. Doesn't matter what it is, ppc, seo, whatever... What bothers me about threads like this are in regards to the beginners who read them. With the matter of fact statements, suggestive statements about the crazy amounts of money being made, how easy it is, and mysterious statements with no hint of detail, beginners get very easily distracted and doubt their current efforts. It makes their heads spin even more and contributes to their failure in the end.

      Don't get me wrong, I agree in general with the whole paid vs. free issue. However, instead of patting each other on the back and drinking each other's kool aid because you as a matter of fact are the select few who have the golden nugget of marketing, how about including some sources, guides, courses, you would recommend to those NOT in the know so they can learn and avoid most of the bs out here. I would even check out your suggestions because I know the golden egg is there and ppc is still on my to learn list =p
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      • Profile picture of the author dvduval
        Originally Posted by kakaboo View Post

        And I chuckle at your reply, because this thread is not about PAID TRAFFIC VS FREE TRAFFIC VIA SEO, but rather about there are a lot more other ways to get free traffic other than SEO and how most newcomers get stuck in the driving traffic to their website phase.. why? because they are stuck with SEO... throwing darts against a wall where they dont even know where it is and hoping that they stick!

        Sure, SEO is great and cool, and definitely the best and the passive one for the long term... but it certainly isn't FREE to get there
        The very best way to get free traffic is to create an environment where people like your site or service and want to come back and see it or use it again and again. Otherwise you spend months or years on SEO just scraping by but never being able to work your way out of a fairly break even situation. I know this from years in the business.
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  • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
    I was spending way too much money on buying courses from people who I found out didn't really know what they were doing either. Big surprise right?
    Ha - i here ya ... all from an army of well oiled affiliate marketers with LISTs and a never ending incestuous funnel of marketing to marketers ...

    Of course there's zero learning curve to proper affiliate relationship building, list building, and PPC ... it's all so readily apparent on how to be successful with all those. There's no investment in education or costs there right?

    Its all fine and good to talk about list building and jv mailings and sorts of wonderful "inside the warrior forum and IM world" incest laden eBooks and training courses for marketers FROm marketers ... but what does Johny LunchBox with an offline brick n mortar do?

    They call it advertising expense ...
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  • Profile picture of the author rhab
    Oh Ya? And I chuckle at you chuckling at my reply... =p

    And I chuckle at your reply, because this thread is not about PAID TRAFFIC VS FREE TRAFFIC VIA SEO, but rather about there are a lot more other ways to get free traffic other than SEO
    Read...

    my first impression of this thread...
    this thread is not about PAID TRAFFIC VS FREE TRAFFIC VIA SEO, but rather about there are a lot more other ways to get free traffic other than SEO
    This thread is plenty heavy in elements of paid traffic vs. "free traffic", not sure how that can't be seen, but people interpret things differently. But I agree, obviously there are more ways besides seo. Don't think we have any disconnect here.

    And obviously "free" traffic isn't free. We all know what we mean in I.M. when we say "free" which is why often times you will see the word in quotes. Maybe we need to say organic so we avoid technicalities or say cheaper than other avenues I dunno =p. Time is money and nothing is truly free in our realm, you start paying for your IM education when you jump in...
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  • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
    Yes, that's right folks.

    There is NO MONEY in SEO traffic.

    Now go leave the SERPS alone and I'll uh...make very little money at it while you guys...get all the money in PPC.....

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    No signature here today!

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  • Profile picture of the author sree94
    I have found paid traffic to be much better. For one thing, the ads are placed in a way that sort of separates them from all the "muck" in the regular search engine results

    Problem is, the decision has been taken out of my hands. I lost my 150k a year biz to the dreaded Google Slap, and every effort to get back on has been fruitless. So I am basically forced to do SEO, even though I hate it
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