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An "obvious" thing, I am now starting to question...

by TimothyW
26 replies
  • SEO
    • |
I'm no IMing genius by any means, so what I am about to point out may not really make sense, but here goes...

Fact (I think, based on my own experience): Google cannot be made to behave "normally." Basically, there is no way to get google to act on a clean slate -- to ignore what the actual computer that is using google (to search) has done in the past. To google, there is no such thing as a 'virgin' computer. No such thing as a 'virgin' search.

Therefore, anyone who does a google search get 'results' that are totally skewed by what that computer has done in the past. This INCLUDES things like youtube video results, etc. Basically all results are skewed (based on what the individual computer has searched for before, and maybe even which sites it has visited).

THEREFORE (!)... any marketer who shows us what his/her methods have yielded, in terms of seo results, for example, may be entering a delusional world where the 'results' are nothing more that the FALSE results, just because google has taken into account what THAT computer has be active doing for the past [whatever] amount of time.

If a marketer is delving into a certain arena/niche/whatever for a bunch of time, editing + viewing their own video over + over, etc. (for example) -- then they look to see where it ends up on google (search), what THEY see on their results may be totally different from what someone else will see.

This little wrinkle could make 'legit' screenshots really be delusional, for example.

Kinda like Winnie the Pooh being a 'detective,' following footsteps round + round the tree -- never realizing the footsteps are (nothing more than) HIS OWN!

Comments?

-- TW
#obvious #question #starting #thing
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Google behaves exactly as it was designed to behave, regardless of whether you agree or not.

    There are no fake search results. What Google shows, it shows, but these days it is based as much on your search history as the historical behavior of the majority of online search users.
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    • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
      Which is why, if I'm "selling" someone a space on a site that I claim is no1 in Google I always ask them to do the search for themselves.

      If I was buying or interested in something on the basis of google results screenshots I would always do the search for myself.

      I do the same with all those daft emails you get from random people asking for links to their un"related" websites - and claiming invented PR. I check the PR and then delete the emails.

      Sadly the internet is full of people with, let's say, fanciful imaginations when it comes to the truth. Always check your facts.
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    • Profile picture of the author jaiganeshv
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Google behaves exactly as it was designed to behave, regardless of whether you agree or not.

      There are no fake search results. What Google shows, it shows, but these days it is based as much on your search history as the historical behavior of the majority of online search users.

      Exactly as you said, these days its based on search history. We think our keywords show up first page and in #1 but unfortunately it might be for us only and not for a totally new user. I think Scroogle.org helps in finding the keyword ranking which claims to eliminate the search history from Google.com


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    • Profile picture of the author Lucid
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Google behaves exactly as it was designed to behave, regardless of whether you agree or not.
      Exactly.

      Also want to add that output is dependent on the input given. Lots of people don't know how to do searches. I actually think there should be a course on this in schools. In the computer world, we call this "garbage in, garbage out". In other words, if you don't give the computer enough information, it does what it can with it based on its algorithm. There's no such thing as Star Trek's computer coming back with "insufficient information". The technology is not there yet, which I doubt we will.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    tpw -- I am not 'agreeing' or disagreeing with how google works. How google works is essentially my point exactly! And I'm not even saying anyone is intentionally misleading anyone else. I'm saying what one person gets as a search result, has little to do with what someone else gets, doing that "same" search.

    All the search results are skewed -- therefore they cannot be used as 'proof' of anything, or any 'accomplishment.'

    I can do a search for subject "A" -- and I will get results for subject "A" -- then, if/when I do a search of (completely UNRELATED) topic "B," google will give me results for topic "B" *AND* some for topic "A."

    So, anytime I do a search for any topic or keywords, I'm getting a totally unique MISH MASH of dozens of (previous) inputs that bear no resemblense to what other people would see as results, on THEIR computer.

    And it's not just google. I noticed the same thing when searching on youtube.

    So, anyone (IMers) pointing to "results" they got, as some kind of indicator of what their "methods" have produced, may be deluding themselves (+ maybe other people too).
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    Where are guys getting this information from that makes you think this is how Google gives us search results?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

      Where are guys getting this information from that makes you think this is how Google gives us search results?
      From Google's blog, and Matt Cutts' blog, in my case.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

      Where are guys getting this information from that makes you think this is how Google gives us search results?
      Do you know what a computer 'cookie' is? Also, if you use iGoogle then your search history and interests can be tracked that way as well.

      Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author matt5409
    i'm not even sure i understand this post. are you referring to personalised and local search results?
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by matt5409 View Post

      i'm not even sure i understand this post. are you referring to personalised and local search results?
      I mean, anyone who says, "these are the results when this term is searched in google (or youtube, etc.)" is standing on quicksand, not terra firma.

      What Bob, in apartment 301, sees on his computer when searching for [any particular term] will be totally different from what Cindy sees, in apartment 302, on her computer when searching for [that same particular term].

      So, when an IMer says...

      I used the XYZ tactic/method and "achieved" these results "on google."

      he/she is making a nonsensical claim!

      -- TW
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      • Profile picture of the author matt5409
        Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

        I mean, anyone who says, "these are the results when this term is searched in google (or youtube, etc.)" is standing on quicksand, not terra firma.

        What Bob, in apartment 301, sees on his computer when searching for [any particular term] will be totally different from what Cindy sees, in apartment 302, on her computer when searching for [that same particular term].

        So, when an IMer says...

        I used the XYZ tactic/method and "achieved" these results "on google."

        he/she is making a nonsensical claim!

        -- TW
        can't agree with this.

        whilst of course you cannot apply somebody elses model directly to your own work, seeing examples of success from others can be taken as a useful guide. you just need your own gumption and knowledge to apply what you've learnt to your own processes.

        out of curiousity - why do you think neighbours will see different results for the same terms? obv personal search has a lot to do with it, but it's not always the case!
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        • Profile picture of the author Kev Stevenson
          @matt5409
          G00gle uses multiple 'datacenters'...
          If you and I are both searching at the same time, you might be searching an index in Frankfurt, I might be connected to Dublin. Both indexes may be at a different point in their spider/refresh cycles. This can also account for differences in results...
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hey Tim,

    You're right. Unfortunately many people are still ignorant of this and sell things based on false information because they don't know any better.

    That's why it's up to buyers to know what they're buying and not get stung like this.
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kev Stevenson
      I've seen this happen in other areas too...

      e.g. Alexa rankings

      A client using the Alexa toolbar visits his eCommerce site many time a day to quote prices to offline prospects.

      Alexa 'extrapolates' his visits and thinks that the rest of the web-population must also visit this site more often than is actually the case.

      He is delighted that his Alexa ranking rockets - his site quickly attained a better Alexa ranking than my 12 year old site. Alexa reports far higher traffic for his site.

      I have access to the raw visitor logs for both sites and can see the real data.
      The discrepency between the Alexa data and the truth is obvious.

      We skew our own 'results' if we are not careful.

      Robinson Crusoe also followed his own footprints. Pooh was not the only one.

      K
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      • Profile picture of the author paulgl
        I think people assume google is static. It does not change. They
        want consistency, at least for their sites and hate it when google
        chooses to do something else.

        Of course google is skewed. Why would they not be? They MUST be!

        They NEED to give the most relative (or what they think is relative) for
        the searcher, the searcher's location, the searching trends at that moment,
        the searching trends for that searcher's location, the trends in the news,
        and many, many other factors.

        You could search now for something and 5 minutes later the results are
        completely different.

        Is google perfect? Of course not. But the people have voted. They think it
        is 3 to 1 better than anything else.

        I have always chided people about parlor tricks and SERPs. Parlor tricks
        are not SEO or proof of anything.

        The only way you can truly tell what google is giving you, is by using some
        tracker, be it cpanel, google's plethora of tools, or other.

        The difference between parlor tricks and real SEO, comes to play when
        real people do real searches for real search search terms in real world
        situations. Big difference.

        If you have a niche that is subject to trends, your SERP can change minute
        by minute, and by location to location. Perfectly normal, and is exactly what
        a search engine should do.

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Stephen Crooks
        As with all things Google, nobody really knows (unless you work for them..) However, certain theories can be tested and this is one of them. Google are certainly committed to tailoring relevant results to their visitors. But tailoring search results based on what you have been looking at previously is at worst not happening and at best, so subtle that it is hardly noticeable.

        To test this, I searched for the phrase "dog training" with various scenarios..

        1. With all cookies intact and no proxy.



        2. With Cookies deleted and no proxy..

        The same results as above..

        3. With cookies deleted and a UK proxy..



        So there you go.. Using the assumption that Google will track your search results using cookies, deleting all cookies or keeping them have absolutely no impact on the search results.

        The other way for Google to track your search history would be to base it on your IP address. As you can see, the only difference is in the local results (as you would expect).

        Of course, to make this scientific, this testing should be repeated many tomes and by other people but the results I got here confirm what I think. Google DO NOT track your search history and tailor results to you as a consequence. In other words, I will see the same results as someone else (also in the UK and using the same Google data centre).

        Google DO track what you are doing and target adverts accordingly but NOT search results. Just to add to this as well, different Google data centres WILL return different results and your geographic location DOES have an impact on those results.
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  • Profile picture of the author daangertenaar
    Urm, there's always a solution to fix that problem, you could use rank checkers and if they almost show the same results then I think there is no problem, at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author SamDermot
    Banned
    Google is helping the society first and then businessman so it gives priority to social benefit.

    It tries to give quality result through searches, not only this, it gives us thousands of free other helpful places, softwares which are very beneficial to the society as well. Thats why, Google is too popular today.
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  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    ...so just verify your search queries two ways...first with your computer and second through a proxy server...done...
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    You can always tell when an seo related question gets posted in the main forum & gets moved to the seo forum, lol.

    OP, two things you need to know about before doing any keyword research on your own PC.

    1) CCleaner (free)

    2) Google Chrome Incognito

    Use both in that order.

    Besides cleaning your PC, Google will use a GEO-IP from your own ISP location, which isn't a big deal unless your working on local search, your in LA & the local search is in New York, in that case use a proxy after the 2 steps above.

    It works!






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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Originally Posted by londonwarrior View Post

    It's true that your search history is taken into account when returning your Google search results, but I have never seen search A results included in search B, as you suggest.

    If I search for 'water filters' I get a page of results about water filters.

    If I then search for 'sunglasses' I get a page of results about sunglasses.

    I never, ever get a mixture of results. If I am searching for sunglasses why would Google show results for water filters? It doesn't make any sense and I've never seen it happen.
    I see it happening ALL the time. In fact, I 've never seen it not happen.
    Also happens in youtube.

    Also, using a proxy isn't really a solution either. Each individual searcher is seeing google through an individual filter (skewing) -- so, seeing it with "no" filter isn't going to replicate anyone else's results either. The very words "on google" (re: search results) are pretty much meaningless, because it is a moving target that looks different to all who view it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Crooks
      Are you talking about what you see in the organic results or the Adwords results? I can't believe you are seeing results in the organics results based on your search history.. Adwords results are a completely different kettle of fish on the other hand.

      You will definitely see results based on your history with the ads you are served. This is due to the doubleclick cookie that Google use. Read more about it here and you can also opt out if you wish..
      Advertising and Privacy ? Google Privacy Center

      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

      I see it happening ALL the time. In fact, I 've never seen it not happen.
      Also happens in youtube.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Heard it yet again from a very sophisticated marketer...

    [on a conference call interview] "Yes, I've been tracking your site over the course of a few weeks, and I see that it keeps rising -- it's now on page ONE, at the #5 position!"

    This is a totally bogus thing to say.

    There's a very good chance it is at "the #5 position, on page 1" merely BECAUSE he has "been tracking it for several weeks." And, that it only appears at that position on HIS computer (ie: delusional results -- no bearing on "reality," because there is no real reality).

    no?
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

      Heard it yet again from a very sophisticated marketer...

      [on a conference call interview] "Yes, I've been tracking your site over the course of a few weeks, and I see that it keeps rising -- it's now on page ONE, at the #5 position!"

      This is a totally bogus thing to say.

      There's a very good chance it is at "the #5 position, on page 1" merely BECAUSE he has "been tracking it for several weeks." And, that it only appears at that position on HIS computer (ie: delusional results -- no bearing on "reality," because there is no real reality).

      no?
      First you said very sophisticated marketer, then you have doubts?

      Anyone that's been in IM for a while knows about Google personalized results.

      I've posted a simple way to avoid the personilized results, it works & isn't as complicated as your making out.
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