Why bother with Adsense when you could be making more and Faster without them?

140 replies
  • SEO
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Been meaning to ask this question for awhile but kept putting it off . I was recently reminded of this when talking with a few Imers looking to build adsense empires.

With adsense you are basically being paid by businesses to send traffic to them. Yes Google sends you the check but ultimately the real person paying out the dollars is a business using advertising through adwords. Google gets a nice slice out of that pie and controls everything (including how much you make and whether they want you to continue making it). You don't get to set your price and terms. You are entirely at their mercy and the businesses that ultimately pay you are paying through their nose for clicks while you get pennies.

In addition to that unless you are very fortunate you work for a long time while making VERY little IN THE HOPE that once you rank a number of sites you begin to be paid by businesses for your rankings.

It strikes me that the difference between doing SEO for businesses as I do and the adsense guys isn't that huge when it comes to who pays us and why.

Its the same kind of business owners ultimately writing our paycheck.

The main difference is I work directly with the businesses that want traffic from Google in the organic listings. I set my fees. I generally get paid upfront or very soon to proving myself to the business owner. Google might influence me by where their algo makes sites rank but they can't terminate me. If I deliver results for these clients they tend to stay with me for a long time.

I have no sites to setup.
I don't have to setup most of my customers content
I can't be terminated from my entire business.
I get paid better.
I get paid faster.
I can increase my income with a few more customers.

and if I rank 20 30 sites I don't have the reward from google that my sites all get banished from the program but instead I improve my reputation among the same business owners and get more jobs.

My point?

Many people trying to make adsense fly would make more money by getting clients at $199 a month and start making it in a week to a month or two.

Sure there are guys making tens of thousands doing adsense but most of those are not doing MFAs and frankly for everyone making good money with adsense there are 100 and probably more making nothing but pennies.

So know SEO enough to rank sites and choose adsense? maybe you are just being suckers. Why not learn to go straight to the business owners themselves who pay the bills for both of us and cut out the middle man boss Google?

based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers. Even Affiliate marketing is more versatile. There I said it and I can back it up because its the pure truth.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that doing SEO is the only viable business model outside of adsense. I am merely comparing them because of the similarity of who is actually paying for both models - businesses looking for traffic.
#adsense #bother #faster #making
  • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
    The main reason why adsense is so attractive is because of it's simplicity. You don't need a sales page to sell products. And you don't need to convince someone that you offer worthy services.

    All it takes is content creation and proper ad placement. Pretty darn easy!

    I agree with you though. You can make A LOT more money by monetizing in other ways.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by co2 View Post

      All it takes is content creation and proper ad placement. Pretty darn easy!

      I agree with you though. You can make A LOT more money by monetizing in other ways.
      Content creation isn't easy unless you are just doing MFAs and there is nothing simply about waking up every morning wondering if your income will be tanked by Google because all you have are MFAs

      But what good is simplicity in making money online if you are NOT making money online. Besides I see alot of people doing a whole lot of hard work with mutliple sites and on page SEO and backlinking - not so simple in reality.

      I've been watching this for years on WF and there are VERY few people making any real money from adsense at least not those who create sites just for adsense. Its a busted wasteful business model for too high a percentage of people. If people put up their hours and what they make there are ton loads of people who would do better working for a dollar an hour.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Content creation isn't easy unless you are just doing MFAs and there is nothing simply about waking up every morning wondering if your income will be tanked by Google because all you have are MFAs

        But what good is simplicity in making money online if you are NOT making money online. Besides I see alot of people doing a whole lot of har d work with mutliple sites and on page SEO and backlinking - not so simple in reality.
        Making money through adsense is a lot easier than making money as a service provider. Sure, you can make more money in a shorter period of time as a service provider. But you first need to convince people that you are a worthy provider.

        All content creation can be outsourced. Just like all service work can be outsourced. Everything seems to cost time or money. Adsense is easy to set up if you have knowledge of the content you create. Or if you outsource the content to someone else.

        Like I said, adsense may not be the best investment of your time or money. But it IS easy to set up. For that reason, it's an attractive form of monetization to some people.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by co2 View Post

          Making money through adsense is a lot easier than making money as a service provider. Sure, you can make more money in a shorter period of time as a service provider. But you first need to convince people that you are a worthy provider.

          .
          I don't argue that its easier to setup but thats not the point. Who cares a rip if setup is easier.

          Prove its easier TO MAKE MONEY not just to setup. Huge difference. Because I get people PMing me all the time with their MFA sites. they are not getting any money from them and have all kinds of issues ranking and getting traffic.

          Frankly Its drop dead easy being a service provider. In SEO I don't have to convince a client of anything if I don't want to. If I am hard up for a customer I can pick a company and say to them I will move you up several pages in Google and when I do I have instant credibility. I can pre qualify them and know they have the money to pay and are used to paying advertising money. Most think it s magical the ability to move the site up.

          If its so hard to be a business provider why are there WSOs FILLED with service threads being bumped? Frankly look around in this section of WF - there are more successful people offering SEO services here than anything else.
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          • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            I don't argue that its easier to setup but thats not the point. Who cares a rip if setup is easier.

            there are more successful people offering SEO services here than anything else.
            This does not prove that 'providing a service is more popular.' I hope you're not implying that there are more Seo service providers than adsense publishers.

            Anyways, the amount of people involved in a particular field of 'making money online' is irrelevant to what is the 'easiest way to make money online.'

            I did not suggest that being an adsense publisher is a better course of action. My only point is that it's easier. And some people prefer to go for the easy road. Even if that means smaller profits.

            Anybody can make money off adsense. If you create content and get some traffic, eventually you will get clicks. Those clicks will earn you "some money."

            Not rocket science by any means. It is of course a lot harder to make significant amounts of money. For that you need to understand CPC, how to get traffic and CTR.

            You claim that being a service provider is easy and then offer a pretty darn smart strategy for finding a customer. Perhaps not everyone is as clever as you Mike.

            If I tried to sell my services to the community, I wouldn't even no where to start. But I installed adsense the very first day I started my attempt to make money online. All I needed was to create an account and add code. I thought I was going to make thousands of dollars a month from adsense. I didn't.

            But from that learning experience I have expanded to more profitable methods.

            Not the worst place to start. But definitely not an avenue I would want to be on forever.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by co2 View Post

              This does not prove that 'providing a service is more popular.' I hope you're not implying that there are more Seo service providers than adsense publishers.
              Nope but I am indicating that there are more people making quicker money with services compared to the MASSES that have MFAs and have not made any money to speak of at least from what I see on WF and the experiences of those who PM me about their adsense sites.

              Anyways, the amount of people involved in a particular field of 'making money online' is irrelevant to what is the 'easiest way to make money online.'
              Didn't say anything about popular by itself. I stated successful - that IS about making money

              My only point is that it's easier. And some people prefer to go for the easy road. Even if that means smaller profits.
              Easier for making money? I think thats a myth. Easier to setup and get started but not making money? I've conceded that point but I don't know that it matters. So I DO understand your point but I am talking about the newbie starting out and adsense as a business model.

              The fact that you can set up a site drop adsense code on it and be ready to roll means nothing. You still have to rank the site. You still have to learn SEO and get good at it. Theres STILL a learning curve. It still takes work but people are led to believe they have accomplished something and are off to a start in business when they don't have one yet. Its just code they have put on the page - nothing more. Adsense merely gives you the illusion that you have begun.

              So in many respects to me the easy to setup and easy to make money are two different things. the first is true and the second seems to me to be a myth.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulgl
          Well, SEO is not instant results. And they must pay you.

          Most in this mindset will pay google via adwords. Why
          pay you for what may be iffy results next month?

          Instant gratification.

          And there would be no reason to stop doing adsense
          while you undertake this endeavor anyway.

          If these people swap adwords for organic search, they
          will then be competing with their former competitors
          who will remain in the ads.

          The logic would be that sites like amazon would just
          can their adwords account. But they don't.

          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

            .

            If these people swap adwords for organic search, they
            will then be competing with their former competitors
            who will remain in the ads.

            l
            Paul there are literally millions of small businesses that don't do adwords and millions more that have no idea what organic means. They are not swapping anything. The market is still wide open for small and local business SEO with companies that although having advertising budgets are not into adwords.

            To your other point no one said that anyone who has a successful adsense business should drop it. My point is that a business model for people starting out its not proven itself to be a good model based on the percentage of people ho are NOT making money. Even for those not into SEO services would still be better off looking at something more lucrative than adsense. Frankly affiliate marketing is still better for most.

            Originally Posted by trustumar View Post

            business owner can also discontinue your services any time. Your site is yours. Adsense gives passive income.
            Individually of course but with adsense you can wake up and your entire business model is gone. Unless you suck at SEO you are not losing all your customers overnight in SEO. I am all for owning sites though but not for a business model that is dependent on another company for its income. That destroys the whole point of having your OWN site.

            Most MFAS are worth zero without adsense revenue and thats owned by google so the feeling of ownership is an illusion. Incidentally SEO services can have nearly the same level of passivity. In both you have to be non passive to rank a site but to keep it you need a little maintenance - same thing after you rank a site for a customer.
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            • Profile picture of the author paulgl
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Paul there are literally millions of small businesses that don't do adwords and millions more that have no idea what organic means. They are not swapping anything.
              Not a bad conversation....

              But I would beg to differ. There may be millions of small businesses, but
              the vast majority would not give a hoot about being found in SERPS
              or use adwords. They would do google maps, and are probably already
              on them if they have an established brick and mortar biz. And
              local ads in newspapers, phone books, mailers, is where they
              probably advertise, not adwords.

              Adwords and people looking for organic search results are probably
              ones that are selling something online. Be it a product, or info.

              So for instant sales, adwords can't be beat. And you said you
              are targeting the people who do adwords already.

              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

                Not a bad conversation....

                But I would beg to differ. There may be millions of small businesses, but
                the vast majority would not give a hoot about being found in SERPS
                or use adwords.
                Paul by that comment I can tell you have never dealt with many non IM business owners. They care about anything that brings them customers. Ranking doesn't matter as with Imers but the traffic from ranking very much does. IF a business has an internet presence it already is saying it wants online business. period.


                They would do google maps, and are probably already
                on them if they have an established brick and mortar biz. And
                local ads in newspapers, phone books, mailers, is where they
                probably advertise, not adwords.
                Again the presence of a web site indicates very clearly whether a business wants internet traffic. Think about it.

                So for instant sales, adwords can't be beat. And you said you
                are targeting the people who do adwords already.

                Paul
                I said nothing of the sort to limit who I target. Why would I do that? I target any business that is online and yes despite your claims there are plenty of businesses that would rather have ongoing traffic without paying for each click. Truth is almost all want both. Have you looked at what being in the top three in adwords costs for businesses recently?

                I don't know you seem to be mixing up big companies and corporations with small businesses. saying that they don't want to save money on paying for each click is not anything close to reality.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

            And there would be no reason to stop doing adsense
            while you undertake this endeavor anyway.
            Exactly.

            I'm a service provider who is investing a large part of my profits into building big sites and monetizing with Adsense. It works very well for me. Mostly because I build about half of the sites with a view to sell them within 3-5 months.

            Honestly, building highly profitable Adsense sites is the easiest way to make money I have found so far. It doesn't take a lot of time and the profits from selling these sites are huge.

            I see building such sites as my "medium term" investment strategy. It's not a long term business for me, but it's just so lucrative at the moment that I can't say no.
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            • Profile picture of the author outwest
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              Exactly.

              I'm a service provider who is investing a large part of my profits into building big sites and monetizing with Adsense. It works very well for me. Mostly because I build about half of the sites with a view to sell them within 3-5 months.

              Honestly, building highly profitable Adsense sites is the easiest way to make money I have found so far. It doesn't take a lot of time and the profits from selling these sites are huge.

              I see building such sites as my "medium term" investment strategy. It's not a long term business for me, but it's just so lucrative at the moment that I can't say no.
              how do you backlink? those sites
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              • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                Originally Posted by outwest View Post

                how do you backlink? those sites
                Oh man I wrote such a long post about it just a couple days ago right here on WF... it's in my sig.
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                • Profile picture of the author outwest
                  Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                  Oh man I wrote such a long post about it just a couple days ago right here on WF... it's in my sig.
                  ya sorry i noticed that I am reading it now thanks
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Content creation isn't easy unless you are just doing MFAs and there is nothing simply about waking up every morning wondering if your income will be tanked by Google because all you have are MFAs

        But what good is simplicity in making money online if you are NOT making money online. Besides I see alot of people doing a whole lot of hard work with mutliple sites and on page SEO and backlinking - not so simple in reality.

        I've been watching this for years on WF and there are VERY few people making any real money from adsense at least not those who create sites just for adsense. Its a busted wasteful business model for too high a percentage of people. If people put up their hours and what they make there are ton loads of people who would do better working for a dollar an hour.
        Crap effort returns crap results, no matter what the business model. Every model ever mentioned here in this forum is a "busted wasteful business model" for most of the people here, including doing seo for business.
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  • Profile picture of the author outwest
    Agreed 100%
    I just think most people either dont quite see the whole picture, or they dont know quite how to bypass Google as the middleman

    care to expand on exactly how to begin to setup something like that

    For example
    i can envision instead of putting up Netflix ads for Adsense, I would just put up websites targeting movie rentals or netflix etc etc etc

    and then sign up directly on Netflix as an affiliate, of course that bypasses clickbank, Adsense and everyone else

    but i am sure your concept is much more involved or sophisticated. Thanks for posting this thread though
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    • Profile picture of the author bloomingrose
      Originally Posted by outwest View Post

      Agreed 100%

      For example
      i can envision instead of putting up Netflix ads for Adsense, I would just put up websites targeting movie rentals or netflix etc etc etc

      and then sign up directly on Netflix as an affiliate, of course that bypasses clickbank, Adsense and everyone else

      but i am sure your concept is much more involved or sophisticated. Thanks for posting this thread though
      Netflix is on CPA network, eh?
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      • Profile picture of the author outwest
        Originally Posted by bloomingrose View Post

        Netflix is on CPA network, eh?
        If I were going to do netflix I would target it directly with their affiliate program
        but

        my research tells me Netflix kws do not get enough search traffic so I am not interested in attempting to rank that niche.
        even
        "movie rentals"
        is not searched for often enough to interest me
        and of course the top 3 on that is

        Netflix, Blockbuster, Redbox, good luck outranking those
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  • Profile picture of the author trustumar
    business owner can also discontinue your services any time. Your site is yours. Adsense gives passive income.
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  • Profile picture of the author outwest
    I would say being a SEO provider takes a lot of knowledge, years of knowledge, ideally, of SEO

    but that doesnt stop a lot of guys out there with a few months knowledge of SEO going out and selling their "expert" services. Even with more than a year in the game of SEO, I feel nowhere near qualified to sell SEO services. But perhaps I am selling myself short. I did manage to triple my online buss for my beach resort the family owns, and the resort now ranks 1, or 2 for all the popular terms (much to the irritation of my fellow resort owners )
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    • Profile picture of the author Loloy Diango
      What's with the argument? Why not do both - publish content monetized with AdSense and provide SEO services at the same time?

      If both makes us money, what's preventing us from doing both?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Loloy Diango View Post

        If both makes us money, what's preventing us from doing both?
        Fair enough but thats not where most people live though. It s hard enough for them to get going with one business model much less pursue two. So the premise of the Op is given one model adsense seems to be a very poor one for most people and I think keeps them away from success with better business models. Not just SEO service models by the way but affiliate marketing and creating sites that have more depth that can be monetized with other sources of advertising revenue.

        I flat out ask people and very few tell me yeah its worked out well for them. There are of course exceptions but even in the case of those the people who say yes it is working for me have a site that works by itself not merely as an adsense site. Lets face it creating MFAs is a flat out lousy business model filled with all kinds of pitfalls. ANy business where you create a business just so one company can pay you with little other value to any other company or monetization has fail and disaster written all over it.
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      • Profile picture of the author outwest
        Originally Posted by Loloy Diango View Post

        What's with the argument? Why not do both - publish content monetized with AdSense and provide SEO services at the same time?

        If both makes us money, what's preventing us from doing both?
        Remember that famous movie "trading Places" Eddie murphy with Jamie lee curtis in the Bahamas with Dan Akroid at the end of the movie

        Whats for lunch Lobster or cracked crab? Can we have both? BOTH IT IS, .................
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        • Profile picture of the author Loloy Diango
          Originally Posted by outwest View Post

          Whats for lunch Lobster or cracked crab? Can we have both? BOTH IT IS, .................
          Hahaha! That is correct, outwest! :p

          Whatever brings in the money would be cool.

          That's exactly what I'm doing right now. I run an article writing service, the money I make providing this service I use to set up and then rank sites that are monetized with AdSense, the money I earn from AdSense I then use to build more AdSense sites or develop/rank my existing ones.

          When there's a slump in writing gigs, I have AdSense money coming in, when there's a slump in AdSense earnings, I get new writing assignments.
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          • Profile picture of the author bitriot
            I like adsense because I am not on the hook to anyone. No Boss. No clients. No expectations beyond my own. Part of IM for me is removing stress from my life.
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  • Profile picture of the author trustumar
    I myself have been providing seo services in the past. Now i have moved to adsense because

    1. Adsense is simple and easier to manage. You just have to get targeted traffic (buyers), when someone click on ads you earn $$$ and paid.
    2. It has the best payment options for the people outside US. Adsense even pay through western union.
    3. When you know what is working for you just rinse and repeat, $$$ will come automatically.

    As a service provider.

    1. It takes time to get clients.
    2. You spend a lot of time communicating and preparing reports. More clients, more hassle.
    3. Sometimes you are not paid.
    4. They can discontinue you any time.

    Yes, adsense model has some cons and is not a perfect model but still it is the best for me and many others i think.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by trustumar View Post

      1. Adsense is simple and easier to manage. You just have to get targeted traffic (buyers), when someone click on ads you earn $$$ and paid.
      2. It has the best payment options for the people outside US. Adsense even pay through western union.
      3. When you know what is working for you just rinse and repeat, $$$ will come automatically.
      I won't argue with 2 but thats not something most care about. 1 and 3 is pretty much the standard lines with adsense as a model but it doesn't really pan out for people. on #1 you still have to ranks sites to get traffic to get a click so you have to learn SEO and work on your site like any other SEO based business. No magic clicks. on Number #3 you still have to rank sites. No magic bullet. I can rinse and repeat my SEO skills on any sites as well. In fact any business model on the internet can use that cliche "rinse and repeat".

      1. It takes time to get clients.
      2. You spend a lot of time communicating and preparing reports. More clients, more hassle.
      3. Sometimes you are not paid.
      4. They can discontinue you any time.
      break it down for me though because I am not getting the disadvantages. Look how that stacks up with adsense.

      1) It takes time to rank a site and then get some clicks from adsense. You have do that all on your own dime and time with no payments in the HOPE it will pay off.
      2) Would adsense people mind some communication with a customer if it ensured they were making money faster? You do realize that the reason you would have communication (reports are drop dead easy. there are software packages out there that give them in a click of a button) is because you have a PAYING customer?
      3) is just not true since most SEOs get paid upfront. Don't know why you created your SEO business differently
      4) Google can discontinue your adsense at any time, change their policies , and change their payouts without asking you anything.

      So once gain seems to me Adsense comes up short on the merits.

      Originally Posted by bitriot View Post

      I like adsense because I am not on the hook to anyone. No Boss. No clients. No expectations beyond my own. Part of IM for me is removing stress from my life.

      That point I can get in terms of not having to answer to anyone personally but besides the personal aspect of answering to someone Google DOES own your business model and you are on the hook to them. You may not answer to them in actual personal communication but you do answer to them for the existence of your business. I'm my own boss though. Punch my own clock and run the show. Business customers don't care about what you are doing if they see results pushing them up to the top of results. Thats all they care about and thats what I should do anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rukshan
      Originally Posted by trustumar View Post

      I myself have been providing seo services in the past. Now i have moved to adsense because

      1. Adsense is simple and easier to manage. You just have to get targeted traffic (buyers), when someone click on ads you earn $$$ and paid.
      2. It has the best payment options for the people outside US. Adsense even pay through western union.
      3. When you know what is working for you just rinse and repeat, $$$ will come automatically.

      As a service provider.

      1. It takes time to get clients.
      2. You spend a lot of time communicating and preparing reports. More clients, more hassle.
      3. Sometimes you are not paid.
      4. They can discontinue you any time.

      Yes, adsense model has some cons and is not a perfect model but still it is the best for me and many others i think.
      What will happen if adsense ban your account? I prefer to keep both these systems to make money online.
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      • Profile picture of the author trustumar
        Originally Posted by Rukshan View Post

        What will happen if adsense ban your account? I prefer to keep both these systems to make money online.
        There are more chances a business owner discontinue your services than adsense ban you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by trustumar View Post

          There are more chances a business owner discontinue your services than adsense ban you.
          The only way they are even remotely comparable is if you have one customer and even then you can regain a customer. When Google says goodbye to your adsense account thats it - you are out of business.

          This is a kind of a weak point for adsense. Just as you can lose some income by losing a client you can lose income from adsense by a site dropping in ranking temporarily. Same effect and even more likely than losing a customer outright that you have been ranking.
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          • Profile picture of the author outwest
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            The only way they are even remotely comparable is if you have one customer and even then you can regain a customer. When Google says goodbye to your adsense account thats it - you are out of business.

            This is a kind of a weak point for adsense. Just as you can lose some income by losing a client you can lose income from adsense by a site dropping in ranking temporarily. Same effect and even more likely than losing a customer outright that you have been ranking.
            But if google bans your account, lets assume you have ONE acct most do
            you are sh*t out of luck. All money due is cancelled. Those blogs urls? cant be used far as I know for ANY other adsense accts I believe they flag all the urls you were running adsense on, would be easy to do. So you are basically screwed if you were making thousands per month

            with SEO buss sure a client can get mad at you but you are spreading your risk one client could fire you, but ALL OF THEM would never fire you, and one is easily replaced
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            • Profile picture of the author kiwiviktor81
              This might sound silly, but I use AdSense as a baseline for the absolute minimum that any given site might make. So if a site makes $50/month with AdSense, I might figure that the sales potential of that one site is worth $100/month or more. This lets me know when it's time to pursue other monetisation methods.
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            • Profile picture of the author JoshuaG
              Rich Dad Poor Dad Anyone?

              The reason Adsense is good is because your websites are assets that will continue to generate revenue with little maintenance for the long term.

              They allow you to leverage your time to create more assets.

              A service based business requires more maintenance and more time. And if you stop offering your service, you stop making money.

              Service's will always make more in the short term, but its not about how much the business makes, its about how much the individual makes.

              A person offering services is not likely to make more money over time then the person who is collecting assets and leveraging their time to make more of them...and if they do it right, they might even end up doing less work.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                Originally Posted by JoshuaG View Post

                A person offering services is not likely to make more money over time then the person who is collecting assets and leveraging their time to make more of them.
                Yeah, I figured that out the hard way. This is exactly why I got into building websites and selling them as a side-business. It's simple, it pays good, and is very easy to scale.

                Services helped me get to the point where I could invest $500 into a new site without worrying too much about finances. Now we build 2-3 large sites/week as well as do client work.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by JoshuaG View Post

                They allow you to leverage your time to create more assets.
                You make probably the best argument so far for Adsense but it still doesn't really work logically. in the real world Assets on the internet are not made just by time but money. Generate cash and you can generate those assets much quicker and the kind of assets that can do other things besides Adsense. I think most people would prefer to make the money quicker and use it to grow their business. Adsense is not a good model for that.

                A service based business requires more maintenance and more time. And if you stop offering your service, you stop making money.
                this is an adsense myth. Leave a site that is making you good cash with adsense and do no work on it and it will slip in the rankings eventually especially now with Google making significant changes to the content part of their algo every few months. A customers site that I rank and they pay a monthly fee to maintain comes up to almost the same level of passivity as keeping my own site ranked. Passivity is a complete myth. No business is going to continue to make really good money for you if you leave your assets totally alone. Pocket change? Sure but a site that derives good income? No such thing as passivity.

                Service's will always make more in the short term, but its not about how much the business makes, its about how much the individual makes.



                The sooner the individual has more cash to grow his business the more the individual will make.

                A person offering services is not likely to make more money over time then the person who is collecting assets and leveraging their time to make more of them...and if they do it right, they might even end up doing less work.

                Abolute adsense Myth. MFAS are no great asset. Sorry I have seen too many of them. If you build more than MFAs to put adsense on then it takes a WHOLE LOT of work, a concept, updating , thinking about your business and getting repeat traffic. The only people who view MFAs s assets are those buying into the adsense myth. AN internet asset is not a domain, with spun content with mostly worthless information designed only for the searcher to click to another site to find what they actually want.

                A real internet asset has repeat visitors and something of value to keep recurring traffic. Hard work and Money gets that and getting sooner making money helps the newbie have that cash to build such sites. Of course anyone doing work online should have their own web properties but good ones with repeat traffic and I can afford to develop those because I make cash up front with services rather than working for nothing with adsense in the misguided hope that its going to deliver me passive income.
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                • Profile picture of the author JoshuaG
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  You make probably the best argument so far for Adsense but it still doesn't really work logically. in the real world Assets on the internet are not made just by time but money. Generate cash and you can generate those assets much quicker and the kind of assets that can do other things besides Adsense. I think most people would prefer to make the money quicker and use it to grow their business. Adsense is not a good model for that.
                  I agree, assets can be acquired faster with more money. Offering a service is a great way to generate some capital but if you just keep offering your service you're not collecting assets. The guy who accumulates assets and is smart about it will make more money. That's just the way the world works. Its the owners of things who get richest not the people working for those people.

                  this is an adsense myth. Leave a site that is making you good cash with adsense and do no work on it and it will slip in the rankings eventually especially now with Google making significant changes to the content part of their algo every few months. A customers site that I rank and they pay a monthly fee to maintain comes up to almost the same level of passivity as keeping my own site ranked. Passivity is a complete myth. No business is going to continue to make really good money for you if you leave your assets totally alone. Pocket change? Sure but a site that derives good income? No such thing as passivity.
                  Lol, this is an SEO service guys myth. I have many sites that require no maintenance that have generated the same amount of income for years now . Besides that, we're not talking about ZERO maintenance, we are talking about LESS maintenance so we can leverage our energy and time.


                  The sooner the individual has more cash to grow his business the more the individual will make.
                  Surely you jest?



                  Abolute adsense Myth. MFAS are no great asset. Sorry I have seen too many of them. If you build more than MFAs to put adsense on then it takes a WHOLE LOT of work, a concept, updating , thinking about your business and getting repeat traffic. The only people who view MFAs s assets are those buying into the adsense myth. AN internet asset is not a domain, with spun content with mostly worthless information designed only for the searcher to click to another site to find what they actually want.

                  A real internet asset has repeat visitors and something of value to keep recurring traffic. Hard work and Money gets that and getting sooner making money helps the newbie have that cash to build such sites. Of course anyone doing work online should have their own web properties but good ones with repeat traffic and I can afford to develop those because I make cash up front with services rather than working for nothing with adsense in the misguided hope that its going to deliver me passive income.
                  I never said they didn't take work. (I like your list though good points in there..."thinking about your business" lol)

                  I said over time you COULD make more money from less work.

                  Also, here's a definition of "Asset" for you:

                  "A
                  ssets are economic resources. Anything tangible or intangible that is capable of being owned or controlled to produce value and that is held to have positive economic value is considered an asset. Simply stated, assets represent ownership of value that can be converted into cash (although cash itself is also considered an asset)"

                  MFA's seem to fit the definition just fine.

                  Its not a misguided hope to make money with MFA's, there are plenty of people experiencing success.

                  I wonder if the cheques I and many other publishers collect every month are a myth too!?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by JoshuaG View Post

                    I agree, assets can be acquired faster with more money. Offering a service is a great way to generate some capital but if you just keep offering your service you're not collecting assets. The guy who accumulates assets and is smart about it will make more money. That's just the way the world works. Its the owners of things who get richest not the people working for those people.
                    But thats a strawman. I've made it perfectly clear that anyone should develop real assets online and making money quicker facilitates that. I don't even have an issue with those who say do both adsense and services. Point taken aken if you are of the mind to do both. IF I wanted to start adsesne now I would be able to faster and easier by having the funds to outsource everything. So the issue is starting out. Of course why would i build a pile of MFAs when I could create better sites now having the cash?


                    Lol, this is an SEO service guys myth. I have many sites that require no maintenance that have generated the same amount of income for years now
                    SO what? My conditions which you left out were for keywords making GOOD money and yes those tend to have some competition. Want to claim that you can sit there despite all the past changes to the algo and the changes coming this year and do nothing to keep them ranked then be my guest . Anyone foolish enough to believe that is free to believe you.

                    Besides that, we're not talking about ZERO maintenance, we are talking about LESS maintenance so we can leverage our energy and time.
                    exactly so its not entirely passive and I get paid on maintenance from my customers as well. totally equal not less maintenance.

                    MFA's seem to fit the definition just fine.
                    You can use any definition you wish but In the real world business an asset is something that has value by itself. I specifically stated MFAs. they have next to no value should Google decide to disband your account. The value that they have is derived strictly from one company. If you can't see or admit the rather HUGE flaw in that then theres no use. MFA says it all MADE FOR ADSENSE - The value of most of those sites is nil for making money away from adsense.

                    Its not a misguided hope to make money with MFA's, there are plenty of people experiencing success.

                    I wonder if the cheques I and many other publishers collect every month are a myth too!?
                    Where did I say it was a myth that some people get paid? answer -nowhere. Dispute the fact that FAR AND AWAY most people Don't makie any money from adsense despite all the claims at how easy and fast they are to get "into business" with. Dispute the fact that if you build a pile of MFAs you don't stand the chance very day of having all your income and hard work wiped out. Then you might have apoint.

                    Frankly if what people claim about adsense were in a a WSO there would be complaints all over WF about it being totally false advertisement.
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      • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Rukshan View Post

        What will happen if adsense ban your account? I prefer to keep both these systems to make money online.
        You plug in a different kind of revenue generator. Duh, lol. What happens if Google bans one of your client's sites after you do some work for them? Can you say lawsuit? Or worse, possible violence?

        There are no perfect business models. Every one has pluses and minuses, risks and rewards. The best one to do is the one that appeals to you. I'd rather have my fingernails pulled out than go around trying to get people to hire me as their seo guy. I work for myself so I don't have a boss...I certainly don't want 20 of them.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          You plug in a different kind of revenue generator. Duh, lol. What happens if Google bans one of your client's sites after you do some work for them? Can you say lawsuit? Or worse, possible violence?
          LOL. WHo would be your clients? the Mafia. thats absurd and of course you are assuming that you are stupid enough to run your SEO campaign in a way that would get your sites banned

          I work for myself so I don't have a boss...I certainly don't want 20 of them.
          again if your sites are built for adsense you have a boss no matter how you think otherwise. Its Google. Worse they are a boss that can freeze your account, Change how much they pay you whenever they want and all the rules whenever they want.

          Now you are right about every model having its downfalls but some just have more than others and building your sites to suit one potential customer (Google adsense) and no one else is filled with many obvious problems.
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    • Profile picture of the author JeromieDevera
      Originally Posted by trustumar View Post

      I myself have been providing seo services in the past. Now i have moved to adsense because

      1. Adsense is simple and easier to manage. You just have to get targeted traffic (buyers), when someone click on ads you earn $$$ and paid.
      2. It has the best payment options for the people outside US. Adsense even pay through western union.
      3. When you know what is working for you just rinse and repeat, $$$ will come automatically.

      As a service provider.

      1. It takes time to get clients.
      2. You spend a lot of time communicating and preparing reports. More clients, more hassle.
      3. Sometimes you are not paid.
      4. They can discontinue you any time.

      Yes, adsense model has some cons and is not a perfect model but still it is the best for me and many others i think.
      You seem to be the only one here FOR Adsense.
      And I see their point, but MFA sites have benefit as well. Less time to upkeep, all you do is find something and as u said, rinse and repeat.

      have you found success in adsense yet?

      EDIT btw im neutral, more for adsense. but not sure yet.
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      • Profile picture of the author trustumar
        Originally Posted by JeromieDevera View Post

        You seem to be the only one here FOR Adsense.
        And I see their point, but MFA sites have benefit as well. Less time to upkeep, all you do is find something and as u said, rinse and repeat.

        have you found success in adsense yet?

        EDIT btw im neutral, more for adsense. but not sure yet.
        You have not read the whole thread. Most are in favor of adsense. I have been using adsense since march 2011. They have not banned my account yet and i am making avg $75/mo from adsense.
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  • Profile picture of the author martyJames
    Agree totally - for all the effort of ranking adsense sites you could get a MUCH better ROI and return on time through selling your own products /seo service/lead gen sites etc
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  • Profile picture of the author michael scott
    mike, your post is straight on but this only applies to people who own sites that receives qualified traffic from google. Say if I wanted to approach a company directly, I would need to prove to them that the traffic coming in to my site from my keywords are very likely to convert for them, not a million long tail keywords that has a very small potential of conversion or even irrelevant content. That's why some smart advertisers go as far as blocking some sites from showing their ads.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by michael scott View Post

      mike, your post is straight on but this only applies to people who own sites that receives qualified traffic from google. Say if I wanted to approach a company directly, I would need to prove to them that the traffic coming in to my site from my keywords are very likely to convert for them, not a million long tail keywords that has a very small potential of conversion or even irrelevant content.
      Good point Mike. thing is though I really would question how many people get really good conversion even for adsense from those kinds of keywords as well. Back when the farmer update went through I gave some MFA guys some links and they ranked top two but were surprised there was no traffic (freebie - didn't do any keyword research for them).

      Now what Yukon does to me is a more sensible model even though he is into adsense because he has repeat visitors and works his site's advantages. The sites he talks about have value besides adsense but I just don't know many people making a real business out of strictly MFAs
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  • Profile picture of the author BigNorm
    Because I'm lazy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midir
    You could replace adsense, but there is only so much time in the day. It all comes down to time. There is just not enough time in the day to write content, manage and create new websites, perform seo, and then also trying to do your own adsense. You have to outsource certain aspects, and in a way adsense is like outsourcing your ads. This sorta idealogy applies to click bank and amazon sites too. You could actually try and sell your own products, but then you have to find a time to produce them.

    On the other hand, I agree that once you have some sites up it might be a good idea to look into adsense alternatives. You might make more money.
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  • Profile picture of the author CreativeFlair
    I think there are pros and cons to your method just as there are pros and cons to any method of making money.

    I personally use Adsense because it allows me to get passive income. That's the biggest selling point for me. Once the site is up and making money, I can just leave it and add an article or guest post every so often.

    I do have a mixture of both SEO clients and Adsense, but it's mainly because I think it's important to diversify income streams (I also have a few other things going on).
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  • Profile picture of the author outwest
    Curiously bnetwork. you say blast the new site with 1000 social bookmarks. Do you outsource this? if so , is that fiver gigs?
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  • Profile picture of the author Bambu
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    B
    based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers. There I said it and I can back it up because its the pure truth.
    Your OP sounds like flame bait, but I will still bite. (What the hell is pure truth by the way?)

    I find these threads amusing... My way is better! No, my way is better! Let it be... There is more than one way to skin a cat. There are plenty of people killing it with Adsense, PPC, social, SEO service work, content, graphics, email lists, etc, etc. And lots of people still trying to find their way.

    I am doing more than just fine with Adsense and I work 1-2 hours a day on my projects. I accept that I am beholden to Google, but my hope is that I can keep one step ahead of the algorithm changes to keep my sites ranking. This is no different for you and your clients. You need to stay ahead of Google to keep your client's sites ranking.

    Dealing with clients has its own challenges, they become your boss and your still dependent on Google's good graces to rank their sites, keep your clients happy, and keep their fees rolling in. So now you have two entities you have to keep happy.

    Not all IMers have the tools, skills, and/or where with all to do SEO service work for a living.

    You mention the average IMer in your OP. Why don't we compare the average IMer with the average SEO service provider? I am willing to bet that there isn't much of a difference in each of their incomes or business stability.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Bambu View Post

      LOL. I am sure you have amassed a sizable population of Adsense publishers and did A/B studies on their income using both models...
      Yep. they are right here at WF and many of them PM me SEO questions. Because I have had that I bet I actually know more adsense publishers than you do. MY A/B test is the amount of people not making any money from adsense compared to those who do.

      For many people, it might be hard to find an advertiser for a site that gets 500 national or international visitors a month wanting to read about dog collars. For those people, Adsense may make more sense than going your route.
      Thanks you just proved my point. 500 visitors a month will make you pennies in conversions for most keywords. Adsense hopers spend hours upon hours in keyword research to find enough of those low traffic keywords to make multiple sites and often find even then the conversions are paying them pennies.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    I've read some of Mike's previous posts and I like them... I think he uses the "flame bait" approach for a reason. Good marketing.

    based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers. There I said it and I can back it up because its the pure truth.
    But seriously now... every blanket statement like the one above is total bs. There is no best business model, no best approach or one best way to do things. Sharing what works for you is great, but trying to prove to any (already successful) individual that his business plan isn't working is beyond silly. Think about it for a minute. Not everyone here is a clueless newbie.

    Good thread, would read again.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      But seriously now... every blanket statement like the one above is total bs. There is no best business model, no best approach or one best way to do things.
      Its only BS if you don't read. the Op says it clearly. There is no blanket statement that adsense works for no one. Its says specifically most. Anyone denying that most people do not make good money from adsense is fibbing or hasn't looked around.

      Sharing what works for you is great, but trying to prove to any (already successful) individual that his business plan isn't working is beyond silly. Think about it for a minute. Not everyone here is a clueless newbie.

      Good thread, would read again.
      Well you are right. Not everyone is a clueless newb therefore they know that someone posting that they are successful in adsense doesn't mean that they are. For one people have totally different ideas about what success is and some think they have a successful business because they make $300 a month. For another people rarely like to say they have failed at something.

      So whose right and whose wrong doesn't come down to testimonials in an open forum. It comes down to making the case and showing the logic behind a model. If not someone will always figure they solve the issue by anonymously claiming they are making money - happens like that all the time (and either side can do that). Generally though if a business model has real logical flaws it really doesn't make good money for most of the people getting into it. Adsense doesn't make good money for the majority of people getting into it so sorry its a candidate for that general rule.

      As for the thread being flame bait. No its not. Did I know that some people invested in adsense would disagree with it? Yes but not presenting your position on something because some people will get upset at it and call it flame bait would amount to them censoring others positions.

      I wrote what I wrote because more than any other model I get people who are not making it in IM contacting me for help who are relying on adsense and because the problems with adsense are all over this board in several threads every week.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I wrote what I wrote because more than any other model I get people who are not making it in IM contacting me for help who are relying on adsense and because the problems with adsense are all over this board in several threads every week.
        Or maybe it's because Adsense is so very simple to set up and most people really don't care about actually running a business. They just want quick monies.

        See what I don't understand is why you think that someone who can't make money with Adsense would succeed in running a SEO service?

        Adsense is really easy to me. I also have over 300 regular SEO clients at the moment. I work hard. I'm sure you do too. Most people don't.

        Saying that a person with a few failed MFAs can successfully run a business that requires hard work, persistence, great customer service, marketing, accountability and many other skills... is just a little out there IMO.
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      • I Like the discussion...

        Gotta agree, there is no right and wrong, whatever works for YOU is the answer. Unfortunately, most people don't even get to the point of creating a true business for themselves or to the point of understanding what really works for them.

        I like both. Upfront, though, I haven't had a great deal of success with Adsense.

        But that's my fault, because of the effort it takes to get to the point to have results...I know, proves Mike's point!

        So, at this point, I'm a mixture of both world's discussed here.

        I'm actively working on work for "local" clients. I've got a model that is scaleable, duplicable, and ALREADY WORKING FOR ME.

        This model gives me money now, and monthly, with minimal WORK on my part.

        Oh, and for the records, all of the sites in my "local" model are MY domains. I don't work on other peoples sites or rank other peoples sites...only mine.

        Like I said, this is already working for me, revenue coming in regularly.

        And, while not as successful, financially, as my "local" model, I'm building a portfolio of assets that make money "passively"...adsense, affiliate, etc.

        Combined, it works for me...
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Its only BS if you don't read. the Op says it clearly. There is no blanket statement that adsense works for no one.
        I quoted it before and I'll do it again:

        based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers. There I said it and I can back it up because its the pure truth.
        That's a blanket statement.

        Here's what I said:

        There is no best business model, no best approach or one best way to do things.
        Therefore I disagree with your statement that "based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers". Because (IMO and from exprience) Adsense is easier than getting and keeping regular SEO clients (for most IMers).

        Both are only opinions though. One is yours, the other one is mine. Lets agree to disagree, I have to get back to work.

        Good chat, thanks!
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          Therefore I disagree with your statement that "based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers". Because (IMO and from exprience)
          You can disagree and quote several times more. Its a statement of FACT. the vast majority of people do not make money with Adsense. They build multiple sites and labor to get them ranked and have nothing to show for it a year later. thats the very definition of waste. You might fail at selling Seo services but if you do you will not have to labor for months in advance to rank the customers site like many do with adsense. If you don't sell (and like anything online if you set it up right it can work pretty easily) theres no work to speak of. If you do then you get far more money faster than people do having to rank multiple MFA sites.

          Now if I said it was a waste to all Imers then that would be a blanket statement. I didn't.

          anyway have to get back to my SEO customers and then travel plans for the weekend (all paid by my SEO income that pays all my bills) so enjoy!
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        • Profile picture of the author packerfan
          You have customers that have to be served. You have to sell. You have to market, etc.

          Adsense is passive income at least in the fact the everything can be outsourced.

          I think that's the biggest difference. But if you're willing to actually run a business, then yes you're wasting your time with adsense.

          I've been thinking of getting into the local thing for a while. Just don't know if I can handle another project. Might start with like 3 clients and just see how it goes.

          Not sure. On the surface it seems like easy money though. Thanks for giving me something else to add to my plate.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by outwest View Post

            nNetwork, how many pages do your sites typically contain?
            Home page + 5-6 large inner pages and then blog posts. I think I'll be sticking with this structure for the time being, as my blog posts act a bit like "inner circle" (love it!) friends of the more important pages. It works for me. There can be anywhere from 20 to 300 blog posts.

            Originally Posted by packerfan View Post

            You have customers that have to be served. You have to sell. You have to market, etc.

            Adsense is passive income at least in the fact the everything can be outsourced.

            I think that's the biggest difference. But if you're willing to actually run a business, then yes you're wasting your time with adsense.

            I've been thinking of getting into the local thing for a while. Just don't know if I can handle another project. Might start with like 3 clients and just see how it goes.

            Not sure. On the surface it seems like easy money though. Thanks for giving me something else to add to my plate.
            That's my whole point. Offering services isn't easy, because you have to:

            1. Acquire clients.
            2. Market.
            3. Customer support.
            4. Meet deadlines.
            5. Manage staff (or outsourcers).
            6. Actually know what you're doing. Can't just offer a **** product.

            ...and many other things. I don't know how you guys in here who do local SEO run things, but once you get to processing hundreds to thousands of orders every month, things get real serious.

            I don't see why a successful provider can't do both though. This is the exact same stupid discussion "article syndication vs. blasting spun articles to thousands of sites". Both work, they are different things and should be used for different purposes. Why do people always have to:

            1. Pick a side.
            2. Fight everyone else until they prove their point.

            I, personally, do both - Adsense and SEO services. And it works great for me, because the fact that I know my SEO helps me build/rank Adsense sites faster.

            And no I can't pick up and leave right now, not even for 2-3 days, because we get orders coming in non-stop. I personally oversee all communication with customers, because I care.

            Competition in the SEO services market is a joke. We have very few real competitors in our niche. That's because new providers start and fail within 3-5 weeks. There's a saying "do better than average work and the competition will take care of themselves". It's soooo true. I guess the same applies to building sites/Adsense.

            Meh.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              That's my whole point. Offering services isn't easy, because you have to:

              1. Acquire clients.
              2. Market.
              3. Customer support.
              4. Meet deadlines.
              5. Manage staff (or outsourcers).
              6. Actually know what you're doing. Can't just offer a **** product.

              ...and many other things. I don't know how you guys in here who do local SEO run things, but once you get to processing hundreds to thousands of orders every month, things get real serious.
              Don't know why guys keep going to local in this discussion. Really think you can't get client s online? Really? Your list is just blowing thing s up to make it look hard. I can do the same thing for adsense

              1. do ton loads of keyword research and link build with no client to pay for it
              2. Market (search engine optimization is marketing) without any pay upfront
              3. Customer supporting content - You have to actually acquire content and satsify your visitor at least enough for them to not instantly click away
              4. Find and register the domains, build the site, transfer content
              5. Manage staff - what adsense people don'tt outsource some SEO work?
              6. actually know what you are doing - can't rank for enough traffic generating terms if you don't.

              So whats the big difference? One is easier to start and one pays more to start. Both have long term just as much work just different kinds. In the end if you are no good at SEO then you are going to be no good at adsense.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                So whats the big difference? One is easier to start and one pays more to start. Both have long term just as much work just different kinds. In the end if you are no good at SEO then you are going to be no good at adsense.
                The big difference to me is that there are far too many **** SEO providers that screw over their clients. At least when you **** your Adsense business up it does not affect others.

                Maybe I take customer care too seriously, maybe I care too much in general. It makes me mad to think that people who can't make something as simple as Adsense work would seriously consider taking on this kind of responsibility. Because it is not easy to run a successful SEO service and consistently deliver results for your clients. On this topic we will never agree, I see that now and that is fine.

                Yeah local or not local - obviously makes no difference. You have to deliver results, have a strong work ethic, good marketing and communication skills and a lot more.
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                • Profile picture of the author patrich
                  Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                  The big difference to me is that there are far too many **** SEO providers that screw over their clients. At least when you **** your Adsense business up it does not affect others.
                  To me, that is a very fair assessment. There are in fact a lot of people that have no business providing seo services. I have seen, on this board and others, people post a question that says something like "I just got my first seo client, how do I build links to get them to rank?". lol that is a scam if I've ever seen one. It gives the industry a bad name, but it also allows good seo providers the opportunity to charge more for the services that they provide I would assume.

                  Its difficult for me to comment too much on how managing seo clients works, because I have never done it and really know very little about it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                  The big difference to me is that there are far too many **** SEO providers that screw over their clients. At least when you **** your Adsense business up it does not affect others.
                  Well how about just being an SEO that doesn't screw over anybody? Meanwhile people and their adsense content junk mess up a lot of people. I see them in the health niche all the while with crappy articles with bad medical related advice that people that don't know better will believe because its ranked by Google. I got to shake my head that adsense affects no one else when MFAs junk up so many search results with garbage even in searches where people are looking for potentially life saving advice or desperately important financial direction.

                  Maybe I take customer care too seriously, maybe I care too much in general. It makes me mad to think that people who can't make something as simple as Adsense work would seriously consider taking on this kind of responsibility. Because it is not easy to run a successful SEO service and consistently deliver results for your clients.
                  Bnet what we will never agree on is that there is ANY venture that is easy to make money in. You completely are distorting my position to suit yours. I assume that ANY business that makes good money will require hard work. I'm not advocating that people that sit back on their rear end and never learn anything go ahead and enter SEO. I fully accept what you and others have said about people offering SEO services that are a complete joke and should not be offering anything. My rep around here is to give people a full head on analysis (my detractors call it something farless flattering and are probably right) when they come with some weak SEO knowledge and claim they are the best SEO on the planet.

                  But you know what my answer to that is? Its part of the IM culture that I hate and MFA proponents are also directly responsible. Whats the SEO alternative of

                  " Next month You can Make $20,000 a month while sitting on your coach watching TV"

                  Its the MFA lazy I don't have to do nothing but buy a domain and put adsense code on a site and I will retire.

                  See I am not convinced that everyone that fails at MFA or even IM are mindless dolts that can't make anything work. Many of them have day jobs that require thought and work. Its just that many of their minds turn to mush when they read the testimonials from the guys selling kits that because its the internet they can make cash with the push of a button.

                  You act like its something in their DNA or all of their low IQs where I think if we didn't have these rubbish get rich lazy approaches people WOULD wise up. How do I know I am right? Because I have seen people who were into MFAs and crappy SEO wise up over the years and now run their business extremely sensible - With hardwork.

                  Bottom line - "make money easy with MFAS", "do nothing but link spam blast sites to the top" and "get rich overnight" are all the same mentality and adsense proponents very often own that.

                  If you don't own hardwork as the key to success you have nothing to be indignant about . Whether you do SEO, adsense or any kind of IM you ARE the problem.

                  Try reading the OP again. You might see that it was addressing people who have or would WORK long at adsense not sitting on their thumbs.
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                  • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Well how about just being an SEO that doesn't screw over anybody? Meanwhile people and their adsense content junk mess up a lot of people. I see them in the health niche all the while with crappy articles with bad medical related advice that people that don't know better will believe because its ranked by Google. I got to shake my head that adsense affects no one else when MFAs junk up so many search results with garbage even in searches where people are looking for potentially life saving advice or desperately important financial direction.



                    Bnet what we will never agree on is that there is ANY venture that is easy to make money in. You completely are distorting my position to suit yours. I assume that ANY business that makes good money will require hard work. I'm not advocating that people that sit back on their rear end and never learn anything go ahead and enter SEO. I fully accept what you and others have said about people offering SEO services that are a complete joke and should not be offering anything. My rep around here is to give people a full head on analysis (my detractors call it something farless flattering and are probably right) when they come with some weak SEO knowledge and claim they are the best SEO on the planet.

                    But you know what my answer to that is? Its part of the IM culture that I hate and MFA proponents are also directly responsible. Whats the SEO alternative of

                    " Next month You can Make $20,000 a month while sitting on your coach watching TV"

                    Its the MFA lazy I don't have to do nothing but buy a domain and put adsense code on a site and I will retire.

                    See I am not convinced that everyone that fails at MFA or even IM are mindless dolts that can't make anything work. Many of them have day jobs that require thought and work. Its just that many of their minds turn to mush when they read the testimonials from the guys selling kits that because its the internet they can make cash with the push of a button.

                    You act like its something in their DNA or all of their low IQs where I think if we didn't have these rubbish get rich lazy approaches people WOULD wise up. How do I know I am right? Because I have seen people who were into MFAs and crappy SEO wise up over the years and now run their business extremely sensible - With hardwork.

                    Bottom line - "make money easy with MFAS", "do nothing but link spam blast sites to the top" and "get rich overnight" are all the same mentality and adsense proponents very often own that.

                    If you don't own hardwork as the key to success you have nothing to be indignant about . Whether you do SEO, adsense or any kind of IM you ARE the problem.

                    Try reading the OP again. You might see that it was addressing people who have or would WORK long at adsense not sitting on their thumbs.
                    You have time on your hand
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Well how about just being an SEO that doesn't screw over anybody? Meanwhile people and their adsense content junk mess up a lot of people. I see them in the health niche all the while with crappy articles with bad medical related advice that people that don't know better will believe because its ranked by Google. I got to shake my head that adsense affects no one else when MFAs junk up so many search results with garbage even in searches where people are looking for potentially life saving advice or desperately important financial direction.



                    Bnet what we will never agree on is that there is ANY venture that is easy to make money in. You completely are distorting my position to suit yours. I assume that ANY business that makes good money will require hard work. I'm not advocating that people that sit back on their rear end and never learn anything go ahead and enter SEO. I fully accept what you and others have said about people offering SEO services that are a complete joke and should not be offering anything. My rep around here is to give people a full head on analysis (my detractors call it something farless flattering and are probably right) when they come with some weak SEO knowledge and claim they are the best SEO on the planet.

                    But you know what my answer to that is? Its part of the IM culture that I hate and MFA proponents are also directly responsible. Whats the SEO alternative of

                    " Next month You can Make $20,000 a month while sitting on your coach watching TV"

                    Its the MFA lazy I don't have to do nothing but buy a domain and put adsense code on a site and I will retire.

                    See I am not convinced that everyone that fails at MFA or even IM are mindless dolts that can't make anything work. Many of them have day jobs that require thought and work. Its just that many of their minds turn to mush when they read the testimonials from the guys selling kits that because its the internet they can make cash with the push of a button.

                    You act like its something in their DNA or all of their low IQs where I think if we didn't have these rubbish get rich lazy approaches people WOULD wise up. How do I know I am right? Because I have seen people who were into MFAs and crappy SEO wise up over the years and now run their business extremely sensible - With hardwork.

                    Bottom line - "make money easy with MFAS", "do nothing but link spam blast sites to the top" and "get rich overnight" are all the same mentality and adsense proponents very often own that.

                    If you don't own hardwork as the key to success you have nothing to be indignant about . Whether you do SEO, adsense or any kind of IM you ARE the problem.

                    Try reading the OP again. You might see that it was addressing people who have or would WORK long at adsense not sitting on their thumbs.
                    Woah, finally! I get where you're coming from now.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigNorm
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Its just that many of their minds turn to mush when they read the testimonials from the guys selling kits that because its the internet they can make cash with the push of a button.
                    This was me the first 12 months of my IM career. Them magic push button software cost me a **** load....*******s!
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by BigNorm View Post

                      This was me the first 12 months of my IM career. Them magic push button software cost me a **** load....*******s!
                      Bright side is you wised up. there are people who never do
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucid
    CO2 said it well in the very first response: simplicity. You put in a bit of code and you're in business. Google or whatever other service you use handles the delivery of ads. There's a huge potential inventory of ads. They'll maximize their returns which means it maximizes yours. Most who use Adsense as a means of monetizing don't think about Google getting their share, at least in my opinion. But I think it's a good trade-off for everything I mentioned. They do provide a service.

    As for making money in other ways, nothing prevents site owners to do so and many very likely do. I think most people are simply content with doing thing the easy way. It's hard to find clients and you have to deal with them. There's also competitors. In my mind, the SEO market is over-saturated. The pie is being sliced up in very small pieces. Too many saying they'll do SEO for the number who want/need it. Most don't even know how to sell it properly. I agree with outwest: too many in the game who shouldn't be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Originally Posted by Lucid View Post

    CO2 said it well in the very first response: simplicity. You put in a bit of code and you're in business.
    YEp and like I said and the reason I started this thread. thats the myth people buy and get nowhere because of it. Putting code on a page does not put you in any business. You are in business when you are in position to get payment. COde on your page that is showing on page 20 with no one seeng it is not being in business. SO in the end its still a SEO game and you are right back to ranking sies just like youdo in providing a SEO service.

    In my mind, the SEO market is over-saturated.
    Only in your mind though. Perhaps you mean selling SEO ON WARRIOR FORUMS but the facts show very clearly there are millions of businesses online and millions of niches and keywords in Google US. GOOGLe UK and piles of different data centers of google all over the world. Nowhere near saturation.

    Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post


    Saying that a person with a few failed MFAs can successfully run a business that requires hard work, persistence, great customer service, marketing, accountability and many other skills... is just a little out there IMO.
    First failure in one business model that generally pays out pennies does nto equate to failure in all other forms of business that pay well. Thats way out there. Are there people who will be able to do neither ? certainly but failure in one model thr pays very little as opposed to another where you have more resources quicker does not compute. Most people invoved indiscussion right her ein WF regularly have the skills of communication.

    If you are asking people to rank more than one site to be successful what are the chances they could rank one and get paid to do it? You are missing the point. Just the one would make more moeny than tons of people will make in adsense ever. If people have to rank sites to get paid by Google then why is it much different to rank sites for businesses and get paid more money.

    They just want quick monies
    maybe somebody that doesn;t have to pay mortgages , feed themselves or pay bills but I think most IMers are hoping to one day live off their online business and "quick moneis" don't cut it. IF youa re saying adsense is great for a hobby I guess I would agree. That would prove my point though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      If you are asking people to rank more than one site to be successful what are the chances they could rank one and get paid to do it? You are missing the point. Just the one would make more moeny than tons of people will make in adsense ever. If people have to rank sites to get paid by Google then why is it much different to rank sites for businesses and get paid more money.
      Again, it's not easier to find SEO clients and rank their sites than it is to build high quality Adsense sites and make good money with them.

      Can you sell a clients site? Cause I sell roughly half of my Adsense sites after 3-5 months, generating a lot of extra profit. I could go on and on.

      Look - I'm a massive fan of providing SEO services for cash flow purposes. I do it myself. I do loads of SEO client work. And I invest loads of money into Adsense sites, because it's nearly hands off and it pays amazingly well.

      maybe somebody that doesn;t have to pay mortgages , feed themselves or pay bills but I think most IMers are hoping to one day live off their online business and "quick moneis" don't cut it. IF youa re saying asesne is great for a hobby I guess I would agree. That would prove my point though.
      Nope, that's not what I'm saying. What I mean is that most people right here on this forum are looking to make a quick buck and aren't willing to put in the hard work required to make it in the long run. It doesn't matter if we're talking Adsense or SEO work.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

        Again, it's not easier to find SEO clients and rank their sites than it is to build high quality Adsense sites and make good money with them.
        Says you . If you are expecting me to show you how drop dead easy it is to find clients. I pass. Nothing obligate me to show you when you make claims like that. and no most MFAs only hit the standard of High quality to the owners of the site. Truly high quality sites take a good bit more work. Another adsense myth being perpetuated if you disagree

        Can you sell a clients site? Cause I sell roughly half of my Adsense sites after 3-5 months, generating a lot of extra profit. I could go on and on.
        Look like someone else said we are not all newbs here. No one sells in 3-5 months a site making them good money. They are making you little and nothing and they are being sold for a few dollars. yes I know you will deny it because thats your business. People point at one MFA site selling on Flippa for good mullah and ignore the countless others tht either don't sell of sell for a few bucks after fees. No wool over our eyes here. Like I said before someone always tries


        Nope, that's not what I'm saying. What I mean is that most people right here on this forum are looking to make a quick buck and aren't willing to put in the hard work required to make it in the long run. It doesn't matter if we're talking Adsense or SEO work.
        Quick buck hobby then that doesn't really matter if you make or not - Ok then fine I would agree but thats an admission that adsense is not really for people who want a real business and real income. No?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          and no most MFAs only hit the standard of High quality to the owners of the site. Truly high quality sites take a good bit more work. Another adsense myth being perpetuated if you disagree
          Huh, I guess I've been using the term "MFA" incorrectly here. I build sites for visitors, not Adsense. It just so happens that Adsense works well when I want to monetize them.

          No one sells in 3-5 months a site making them good money. They are making you little and nothing and they are being sold for a few dollars.
          I sell sites that make $150-$200/month for around $2k... They take half a day to build. I tend to keep better earners for myself, not sure for how long though. What's your point?

          Quick buck hobby then that doesn't really matter if you make or not - Ok then fine I would agree but thats an admission that adsense is not really for people who want a real business and real income. No?
          Now you've lost me completely.

          Look, I believe we are talking from two very different perspectives and won't be able to reach an "agreement" or w/e. To each his own, I guess. Thanks for the chat, I really enjoyed it!
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Ward
    Not that I agree or disagree with you, but I think this is kind of comparing apples to... well, a different kind of apples.

    Some people just don't have the skills/confidence to reach out and sell themselves in person to local business owners. I think it an almost entirely different skill set to be able to do this when compared to doing SEO for your own sites.

    Not to mention that if you are going to do SEO for businesses for large amounts of money, you have to know what you're doing first. I think people would get upset if they found out you were trying to learn on the job on their dollar. :p

    This is a great discussion, though. I can completely understand the appeal of doing SEO for businesses. Who says you can't do SEO for both your own sites and others?
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    • Profile picture of the author CreativeFlair
      Originally Posted by Matt Ward View Post

      Some people just don't have the skills/confidence to reach out and sell themselves in person to local business owners. I think it an almost entirely different skill set to be able to do this when compared to doing SEO for your own sites.
      Why are you assuming that all SEO clients are local and require offline selling?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by CreativeFlair View Post

        Why are you assuming that all SEO clients are local and require offline selling?
        Live in Orlando and don't have a single Orlando client. Never even talked online with most customers. Just Pm and emails so typing just like everyone is doing in this thread and to the point of large paying clients - seriously a few low paying ones at say even $199 a month gets you more money than most EVER make with MFAs. I don't go that low but I get requests all the time I have to turn away.

        Originally Posted by Matt Ward View Post

        This is a great discussion, though. I can completely understand the appeal of doing SEO for businesses. Who says you can't do SEO for both your own sites and others?

        Well thats my overall point. In the end you ARE getting paid by the same business customer and you have to learn SEO and execute it over and over again to rank enough MFAs. Do you have to get a bit better at SEO and maybe not use just link blasting? Sure but If I have to go through a learning curve why not do it with something that can make me good money faster if I commit to get good at it?
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  • Profile picture of the author bobrichards
    what is MFA?
    The reason that adsense is so attractive
    1. they do the marketing. Marketing is worth 80% of the price and they take something like 68% of the revenue. So I get more than I give
    2. they pay for the click. Consumer does not need to make a purchase
    3. the serve up ads contextual to the site content making the click more likley

    I would in a heartbeat bypass google if I could find businesses that would pay me per click (and make all the time marketing to them worth it) and not per sale. If you create a network that competes with adsense, finds the advertisers and takes less per click then google, I am IN!!!
    If I am not getting it, fill me in please.
    By the way, I started with Adsense 30 days ago. I am up to $140 per day with a goal of $1,000 per day. I think it is doable but it takes a LOT more smarts than the average guy who is trying to make a living on line. I am 55, have had several OFF LINE businesses and understand about BUSINESS. Many youngsters who try their hand at Internet marketing seem to violate the basics of what makes business successful. Look forward to your enlightement on how I can make more than adsense.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by bobrichards View Post

      what is MFA?
      Made For Adsense

      By the way, I started with Adsense 30 days ago. I am up to $140 per day with a goal of $1,000 per day. .
      I 'll call it

      A) You are utilizing a site that has been built up long before 30 days ago and was not created 30 days ago for adsense

      Or

      B) You are blowing pure fairy dust and smoke.

      What I have been discussing are MFAs. theres no way under normal circumstances that people get up to $140 per day in 30 days.

      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      I sell sites that make $150-$200/month for around $2k... They take half a day to build. I tend to keep better earners for myself, not sure for how long though. What's your point?
      I thought my point was obvious. You are blowing smoke because thats what you sell in your sig. people point to threads all the time in the hope people will PM them and get clients. You are not selling every site you build in half a day for $2000 dollars thats pure baloney. You are doing exactly what I said people do. Point at one site that sells for that and claim its the rule.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I thought my point was obvious. You are blowing smoke because thats what you sell in your sig. people point to thread s all the time in the hope people will PM them and get clients. You are not selling every site you build in half a day for $2000 dollars thats pure baloney. You are doing exactly what I said people do. Point at one site that sells for that and claim its the rule.
        Ha! How very personal. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, I'll leave it at that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          Ha! How very personal. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, I'll leave it at that.
          Bnet nothing personal at all. Don't know you. I would say the same for anyone claiming they flip sites they make in half a day regularly for $2,000.
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  • Profile picture of the author patrich
    Mike, I guess I fall into the "successful earners" category for adsense based on the figures mentioned in the OP, so I am not sure that my opinions count much here.

    But, I chose adsense several years ago, not because it was easier than anything else, because it really isn't, but rather because I had no interest in working with other people or companies.

    I became a full time iron worker, welding and walking i-beams, etc., when I was 15 years old. Continued working in related fields until I was diagnosed with degenerative disk disease in my late 20's. I had two options, start my own business or collect disability.

    At the time, I knew nothing about computers, really never even used one to be honest. So I started looking around at some of the ways that people were making money online, this was several years ago, I found Adsense and it seemed like a great fit for me. Reasons being:

    1) I could work from home and it required very little capital to get started.

    2) I did not have to deal with other people or companies. I am not a "very outgoing" person and often go days with out talking to anyone but my wife or kids. I like it that way.

    3) Adsense overall is somewhat on autopilot. If I want to up and disappear for a couple of weeks, I can. I don't need to notify clients, or anyone else. I just pack my bags and head out of town. Last year for example, I was sitting at my desk working as normal and by the afternoon I was on a plane to Denver to visit friends, completely on a whim. Stayed for a week and a half, never even turned on the internet or read an email, it was very relaxing!

    However, that is my story. I know that there are a lot of people that are not successful with Adsense. There are some people that will probably never be successful with anything, usually because they are lazy.

    When I started out I was working around 18 hours a day, plus 4 or 5 hours a day on the weekends. I still push the envelope these days, with a normal day running around 14 hours, but it is not because I have to but rather because I want to. I love what I do. I love building sites and I love seeing more money make its way into my pockets.

    I guess its like anything else, if you don't put the work in, you aren't going to make it work. Generally, the people that do not make money with adsense will not make money with seo clients. Due to lack of work ethic and organization.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by patrich View Post


      2) I did not have to deal with other people or companies. I am not a "very outgoing" person and often go days with out talking to anyone but my wife or kids. I like it that way.
      fair point. given those conditions then I can see that but I am curious do you build MFAs. See most people I know that do well with Adsense (And I don't deny that there are) do so by having much fuller sites than the traditional paste up a pile of MFA approach

      Adsense overall is somewhat on autopilot. If I want to up and disappear for a couple of weeks, I can. I don't need to notify clients, or anyone else. I just pack my bags and head out of town. Last year for example, I was sitting at my desk working as normal and by the afternoon I was on a plane to Denver to visit friends, completely on a whim. Stayed for a week and a half, never even turned on the internet or read an email, it was very relaxing!
      might surprise you but I can do much of that as well. On a whim for weeks at a time no but on a whim for a week - sure. Some differences but not that big of a deal for me.


      I guess its like anything else, if you don't put the work in, you aren't going to make it work. Generally, the people that do not make money with adsense will not make money with seo clients. Due to lack of work ethic and organization.
      Could be but for starting out I still would go with SEO
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      • Profile picture of the author patrich
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        fair point. given those conditions then I can see that but I am curious do you build MFAs. See most people I know that do well with Adsense (And I don't deny that there are) do so by having much fuller sites than the traditional paste up a pile of MFA approach

        might surprise you but I can do much of that as well. On a whim for weeks at a time no but on a whim for a week - sure. Some differences but not that big of a deal for me.


        Could be but for starting out I still would go with SEO
        I do not build MFA's. Several years ago the typical MFA's were not the "hot" thing to do and weren't talked about as often as they are now. I started building large sites that were industry resources so to speak. I think at this time, my largest site has over 3400 pages of unique content, mostly written by me. People often think that site is part of the government agency that regulates the field it is in. I get emails all the time with people sending me their SS#'s etc., wanting me to look up their account data lol.

        I have a couple of smaller niche sites, but even still I wouldn't consider them MFA's. And, I do not necessarily agree with the MFA site structure. I know some people make good money with it. But I think most people are under the misconception that building these smaller sites means they have to work less and that is not true.

        Every business requires work, time and dedication. Your business requires it, my business requires it, same for a landscaper or a cupcake shop. Some people are just looking for a way around the hard work. Popular IM'ers tried to make MFA's sound like that way and a lot of people jumped on the boat. Unfortunately, there really isn't a way around it. I strongly believe that the harder you work, the more rewards you receive.

        However, even being an adsense guy, I still agree with you on many points. I believe a lot of people would be better suited to managing seo clients. Having that nagging force behind you to get their work done would offer the motivation to keep going. I have nobody but my wife to push me to succeed lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Could be but for starting out I still would go with SEO
        Lulz, if you go through some of my first posts on this forum you are going to find that I've given countless people the same advice. Because it is guaranteed money - fast.

        As for the rest of what you're saying - different worlds man. Oh so very different.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonB
    I'm with you on the SEO part and making money that way...

    SEO is my way of living. It pays the bills and puts extra cash in my pockets too. The majority of my clients are local, but I definitely have clients that are out of state and even overseas.

    The reason I'm capable of surviving off of, and making a living from providing SEO to my clients' websites, is because the techniques I use have proven to work and work well.

    AS far as the adsense part goes, I do have 1 site with adsense on it, that makes about $40 per month. That particular site has been around since 2007, but I just put adsense on it in mid 2011. $40 a month isn't much at all, but, is a couple cases of beer and a Happy Meal from McDonalds. Obviously it's not much, but its fun.

    JasonB
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  • Profile picture of the author Nero Arcnumé
    I stick with Adsense (and some CPA/affiliate offers) because I can make a couple thousand euros per month with a few websites that don't need maintenance. My country has a lot of online opportunity at hand for local websites and I'm positive this is the case for many other non-English countries. But I think many people new to IM get sucked into the English market from the get go and are lost because they can't handle the competition, swings and/or English content creation.

    I could invest more time, call local business and make more but I have no need for that and it's too much of a hassle. That and I'm currently investing time into my own projects that I find fun. I don't enjoy working on sites for other people which is why I'm not doing it. I used to own a business with a couple of friends which was pretty much web development, design, SEO and all that other standard stuff but I quit because I wanted to enjoy my life and my time.

    The thing with me is, I don't really care about making a lot of money. Earning money is easy, but my lifestyle doesn't call for 20k per month. What I care about is building my sites that I own myself, even if that site has a higher upkeep cost than what it earns me. As long as I know it's helping people. And if I ever sell one of my businesses for a ton, you can bet your ass I'm going to invest most of it to help mankind.

    But you're right in saying that there's a lot of value in other places besides Adsense for people who need it and are investing time already in non-lucrative MFA sites and whatever. I'm probably lucky to have stumbled upon a vast untapped market, something that won't happen to everyone. If I hadn't, I'd probably look for other activities such as an offline business or even back to online poker (but I hate those swings :p).
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    My brother has no websites, started Adsense around Aug. 2011, has approx. 310 videos on Youtube monetizing with Adsense & earns approx. $40 per day.

    Each video took approx. 30min to create & upload. He is a professional video editor offline (TV commercials), Youtube/Adsense is the perfect match for him.

    As unique as my brothers experience with Youtube/Adsense might seem, I'm sure their are thousands of similar other cases all over the net.

    My point is, just because you see so many guys on this forum pumping out 2 page MFA sites, isn't what the rest of the Adsense community is doing. Personally I create larger sites that people actually enjoy, so If the day ever came that Google/Adsense banned my account (just the same as an SEO client could drop you), so what I can monetize with a lot of other products or even my own product.

    My traffic is what generates my money, the product (Adsense) can be replaced, again, just the same as one of your SEO clients can be replaced.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      t.

      My traffic is what generates my money, the product (Adsense) can be replaced, again, just the same as one of your SEO clients can be replaced.
      Yuke I've been making the distinction for two pages now that a site that exists on its own and can be monetized multiple ways because it is quality and the real source of the business is a different beast than what I am talking about.

      In fact I already mentioned you by name as running a more feasible adsense revenued resource Every site or resource owner I see making money off of adsense has their website as their main business NOT adsense. Patrich is added to that list. You guys can stop taking adsense tomorrow and use something else because you have taken the long hard road of building up a site/resource people want to use/view over and over again. Is that easier than doing SEO for a business? Not if you already know or have to learn some SEO.

      When all the people in this thread talk about quick and easy "to make monies" They are not going that route. they are going the Made For Adsense website building and you guys being some of the few I see making money from adsense seem to refute that way of using adsense (but just a different way than I am refuting the MFA model) that many people on WF to this day still are runnimg down.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        When all the people in this thread talk about quick and easy "to make monies" They are not going that route. they are going the Made For Adsense website building and you guys being some of the few I see making money from adsense seem to refute that way of using adsense (but just a different way than I am refuting the MFA model) that many people on WF to this day still are runnimg down.
        Then the title of this thread should be "Why bother with crappy MFA sites ...."
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Yuke I've been making the distinction for two pages now that a site that exists on its own and can be monetized multiple ways because it is quality and the real source of the business is a different beast than what I am talking about.

        In fact I already mentioned you by name as running a more feasible adsense revenued resource Every site or resource owner I see making money off of adsense has their website as their main business NOT adsense. Patrich is added to that list. You guys can stop taking adsense tomorrow and use something else because you have taken the long hard road of building up a site/resource people want to use/view over and over again. Is that easier than doing SEO for a business? Not if you already know or have to learn some SEO.

        When all the people in this thread talk about quick and easy "to make monies" They are not going that route. they are going the Made For Adsense website building and you guys being some of the few I see making money from adsense seem to refute that way of using adsense (but just a different way than I am refuting the MFA model) that many people on WF to this day still are runnimg down.
        I missed that mention earlier on the first page of this thread.

        I know what your saying about the small MFA sites. The only reason I can think of that people create those sites is because they've never had a taste of repeat traffic, I'm talking long term repeat traffic.
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        • Profile picture of the author patrich
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          I missed that mention earlier on the first page of this thread.

          I know what your saying about the small MFA sites. The only reason I can think of that people create those sites is because they've never had a taste of repeat traffic, I'm talking long term repeat traffic.
          I think it is more just because of the marketing hype. Let's face it, Xfactor, Fat Cat blueprint, etc., they all make adsense sound so profitable and so easy. Its like you do these two things and in a week you will be ready to retire! lol

          I have never found anything that was truly that easy. The fact is, MFA sites are a lot of work as it is difficult to manage a large number of sites, but even more so, they are expensive.

          Most people don't factor in the cost of renewing a hundred or more domains every year. Or the cost of hosting, or the amount of money spent on seo to rank a hundred different sites and so on. Its not cheap.

          For me personally, it was easier to add 500 pages to 1 site, than to build 500 sites, Its also cheaper for the most part. With the exception of hosting, because my hosting currently runs me around $240/month to maintain a server that handles heavier traffic loads. But I have much less in domain renewals/purchases and seo is also less costly because once a website begins gaining authority, the inner page rankings becomes much easier to obtain.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by patrich View Post

            For me personally, it was easier to add 500 pages to 1 site, than to build 500 sites
            How do you structure large sites like that?
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            • Profile picture of the author patrich
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              How do you structure large sites like that?
              I tend to break the site into categories and then create "main focus" pages in each category and then build out other pages around each focus page. I call them "circles of trust" lol, because I am just emphasizing a page/search term with surrounding pages on related topics.

              Basically its a silo structure I guess, which by the way, Yukon has some excellent information and tips on building silo's here in the forum. I highly recommend reading them. He is sort of "American silo idol" lol!

              I will put it to you this way though. I had one site that I started a long time ago the content was sort of randomly thrown on the domain without much thought given to structure. It was making me about $150 - $200/day. I went through and started structuring the site better, adding more content and building my little "circles of trust" when I was finished the site jumped to a steady $300 - $400/day and has remained there.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                Originally Posted by patrich View Post

                I tend to break the site into categories and then create "main focus" pages in each category and then build out other pages around each focus page. I call them "circles of trust" lol, because I am just emphasizing a page/search term with surrounding pages on related topics.
                "Circles of trust" - awesome.

                One more question - how do you structure your home pages?

                Thanks a lot!
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                • Profile picture of the author patrich
                  Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                  "Circles of trust" - awesome.

                  One more question - how do you structure your home pages?

                  Thanks a lot!
                  Well, I use wordpress for all of my sites, not because I think there are any favoritism or anything from google, just because I find it to be a solid cms which is reliable and easy to use. I also like to support community based projects, which WP is.

                  So with that being said, my sites generally use a static page as the homepage. But, they are not "just an article". I usually have a 1500+ word article on the HP, but I structure it with tables, graphs, images etc. So, when the page is done my site looks more like what you would expect to see on a corporate site or a community resource type of site and so on.

                  First impressions mean a lot and I want my visitors first impression to be that my site is a serious resource for those interested in this particular niche.

                  A lot of guys say that they like to keep their MFA sites plain because they get more clicks. But, I have found that if you present yourself as a respectable company or resource then you get even more clicks, because people "trust" you. They don't feel threatened by the ads or are not concerned about them possibly being junk, because such a quality website would surely link to reputable sources.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                    Originally Posted by patrich View Post

                    So with that being said, my sites generally use a static page as the homepage. But, they are not "just an article". I usually have a 1500+ word article on the HP, but I structure it with tables, graphs, images etc. So, when the page is done my site looks more like what you would expect to see on a corporate site or a community resource type of site and so on.
                    Ha, this is exactly how I do it as well. Thanks for the answers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by patrich View Post

            I think it is more just because of the marketing hype. Let's face it, Xfactor, Fat Cat blueprint, etc., they all make adsense sound so profitable and so easy. Its like you do these two things and in a week you will be ready to retire! lol

            I have never found anything that was truly that easy.
            But thats what contributes to the other thing you complained about - people crying because they got banned. People build these sites that way because of how adsense is sold to them.

            look through even this thread and look at the claims people have made. Before anyone gets upset I understand most of the point s but think of how a newb reads them

            "Easy to setup"
            "Adsense gives passive income"
            "little maintenance for the long term"
            "simplicity"
            "You put in a bit of code and you're in business"

            That says to these users - create a site around a keyword drop in some articles outsourced, spun or PLR and make bank. After all do we really think a newb sits down and thinks easy is writing hundreds of pages of original good content? or having to think about your user and how to reach them (One poster actually laughed at the idea that thinking was work but it sure is when you are thinking on content and user experience).

            Thats not easy. Its not simple its not poof you are in business but thats how it is sold and then when the newb gets canned everyone descends on them and blast him/her because he really did think it was supposed to be easy and did what he thought easy was all about.

            No fair
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            • Profile picture of the author patrich
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              But thats what contributes to the other thing you complained about - people crying because they got banned. People build these sites that way because of how adsense is sold to them.

              look through even this thread and look at the claims people have made. Before anyone gets upset I understand most of the point s but think of how a newb reads them

              "Easy to setup"
              "Adsense gives passive income"
              "little maintenance for the long term"
              "simplicity"
              "You put in a bit of code and you're in business"

              That says to these users - create a site around a keyword drop in some articles outsourced, spun or PLR and make bank. After all do we really think a newb sits down and thinks easy is writing hundreds of pages of original good content? or having to think about your user and how to reach them (One poster actually laughed at the idea that thinking was work but it sure is when you are thinking on content and user experience).

              Thats not easy. Its not simple its not poof you are in business but thats how it is sold and then when the newb gets canned everyone descends on them and blast him/her because he really did think it was supposed to be easy and did what he thought easy was all about.

              No fair
              And I agree with you completely. Keeping in mind that I have not said it was easy, quick or anything lol

              But, yes, there is a lot of misinformation out there which was my point with the ebooks that are so popular. The reality is, at this point most of the people being banned from adsense are the ones reading those ebooks and actually implementing them.

              There is nothing you or I can do about it though. You had to start somewhere and find your way with the seo clients, I had to start somewhere and find my way with adsense and I don't know about you, but there was never anyone around holding my hand telling me "No! Don't believe what that says" or "Here just do this!". You know what I mean? I figured it out on my own, and some people have to make those mistakes or follow the wrong paths in order to learn.

              At this point, I think my only argument with your thread, is that I am not too sure the people building 1 page MFA sites would do any better with seo clients than adsense. The fact that they are trying a business model in hopes of doing as little work as possible tells me that they are not serious enough about doing this to be a success with anything. That is why the little 1 page sites came to be anyways, because people were looking for a shortcut, its less work to write 1 page than a 100 pages or whatever.

              And I am not saying that this applies to everyone, but "most" of the MFA guys I have talked with, chose the MFA approach because they were under the assumption that it would be faster and less work. Which it really is not if you are looking to build any sort of income with adsense.
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  • Profile picture of the author glock67
    I use google adsense for two reasons 1 is because i think it is a very simple way to make money and reason number to is i don't know another way to do it
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucid
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    Putting code on a page does not put you in any business. You are in business when you are in position to get payment.
    How true. I used the word business in the sense that you are ready to go. I certainly don't consider having sites with Adsense A business. You're not selling anything. Sure, some are likely doing a decent living with this method, but the vast majority are not. For most, it's more a bit of extra money. A hobby almost. I certainly would not use Adsense as the foundation of a business model. Business in the sense that revenues are predictable and enough of it to cover expenses and pay myself so I can feed myself and have a roof over my head.


    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    Perhaps you mean selling SEO
    Yes. There's too many so-called SEO experts trying to get your business. I see it all the time in freelancing sites. As soon as someone puts up a SEO project, 30 to 40 put in ridiculous bids. Too many and if they are living of this, I just don't see how.


    Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

    There may be millions of small businesses, but
    the vast majority would not give a hoot about being found in SERPS
    or use adwords.
    Still today, there is a big percentage of brick and mortar businesses that don't have web sites. Those who do have a site, I'm not so sure they don't give a hoot about being found. But they do use their site differently than most people here. For example, using offline advertising and getting people to visit their site. But I don't think that means they don't care about not ranking. They may not care as much.

    Years ago, it was the thing to have a site for your business. It was "in". Back then, they didn't care about SERPs and ranking. They didn't expect to make money from their web site. It was more like a brochure thing. Today, things are different. Businesses see web sites as another customer acquisition tool. So Mike is right, in the vast majority of cases, the idea of a web site is to do business online and complimenting brick and mortar.

    Smart businesses will look into any method of advertising. This includes Adwords.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
    There's nothing faster or easier than a MFA site. Although I've agreed since the beginning that MFA sites are not the best investment of your time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by co2 View Post

      Then the title of this thread should be "Why bother with crappy MFA sites ...."
      Title is fine. It totally applicable to to how most people at WF use adsense.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Title is fine. It totally applicable to to how most people at WF use adsense.
        You can only guess how most people use adsense. The people screaming for help are more likely to create poor quality sites.

        A blanket statement like "why bother with this method because of how other people are using it" is just not a valid comment.

        Adsense and providing a service can both be viable. You've already admitted that there's nothing wrong with how Yukon built up his adsense income. I still agree that MFA sites are not the best course of action. But both adsense and "selling a service" are viable ways to make money.
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        • Profile picture of the author patrich
          Originally Posted by co2 View Post

          The people screaming for help are more likely to create poor quality sites.
          A bit off topic but, I just wanted to mention that this is an excellent point you bring up here. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have tried to express this to people struggling with adsense.

          The same goes for the "my adsense account was shut down for no reason" threads here. I have looked at numerous sites where the adsense account was "shut down for no reason" according to the person complaining and every time, it was apparent that the site was not in compliance with the adsense tos.

          So many people are either in denial about the quality of their work, or they just want to play the role of the victim and have everyone feel sorry for them.

          Quality content, adding value to the niche/industry, complying with the tos and a lot of hard work can equal success with Adsense, just like with anything else.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by patrich View Post

            The same goes for the "my adsense account was shut down for no reason" threads here. I have looked at numerous sites where the adsense account was "shut down for no reason" according to the person complaining and every time, it was apparent that the site was not in compliance with the adsense tos.
            Heh, that reminded me of someone who tried to sell me a $500/month Adsense site about "cigarette coupons/discounts". Ouch.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by co2 View Post


          A blanket statement like "why bother with this method because of how other people are using it" is just not a valid comment.

          Adsense and providing a service can both be viable. You've already admitted that there's nothing wrong with how Yukon built up his adsense income.
          What I "admitted" long ago WAAAY before Yukon entered this thread on page one if you read it was what I was not and never talking about. Anyone can look even at POST NUMBER 4 - that early in the thread - and see that absolutely no change in my position or any of my statements has been made. A business that runs on its own and has value is not invalidated because it runs adsense. the business is the content of the site and its use by new and REPEAT users. Its like encountering a news site that runs some adsense. Is it an adsense business? NO. It is a news site that runs some adsense. IT can and will run many other things. an MFA is a totally different beast. Its BUILT FOR adsense not its own separate business that uses one of its monetizations as adsense. Its all about keywords and adsense monetization. The news sites business is news.

          Most Newbies starting off with adsense are facing a long hard road or a road with no income to speak of.

          You have not touched a single valid comment, proved any point in this thread wrong or proven that a business built only on adsense is viable so the title stays.

          Originally Posted by co2 View Post

          You can only guess how most people use adsense. The people screaming for help are more likely to create poor quality sites.
          If I based it on only people who come screaming to me then you would have a point but in the years I have been here and in the industry it is not just people who are screaming that have issues if they go about building just MFAs
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    Yeah I guess I get your point.

    I could take Adsense off every site I own and potentially make even more money as they're mostly health niches. I used to think of MFA as "using Adsense for monetization", not made for Adsense only.

    Though I still disagree that running a SEO service is a good alternative. It's one of many alternatives, but certainly isn't any easier than building good websites for yourself and ranking them.

    I don't work alone, maybe that is why it takes me half a day to put a good website together (content creation goes to my star writer, link building either in house or outsourced, site building done in house, but not by me). I don't mean like an authority site or anything though. Just a good website that gets daily facebook likes and 300-500 search visits a day.
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    I don't see anything wrong with doing both. I've always sold my own products and I've had Adsense websites since the start. Adsense is the EASIEST money I've ever made in my life, and I've had a really, really easy life
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  • Profile picture of the author Spock1
    I have no idea what that means but it sounds impressive.

    I like adsense because it helped my product sell.
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  • Profile picture of the author BillHus
    I do both....I have 15 sites that I own and actively maintain at various points backlinking to keep them on page 1. At this point all I do is outsource about 100 articles for BMR and spread them around the high competition keywords/sites as most of my sites havent moved down since ranking them. Its not a total "set & forget" but theres not much maintainance on my end compared to the initial investment. I generate on avg now about $1500/month which isnt bad IMO. I used my adsense money to start my Offline Business which has been very lucrative doing as the OP stated the same thing. Ranking sites on Google. So I believe IM'ers should do both as I've heard of the Adsense horror stories but I dont know the circumstances behind them. I will say I've made in my 1st month of Offline(which was partial) what I made in total thru Adsense the last 2 months. Every meeting I've gotten the owners state the same thing "I've been looking at doing the online thing but I didnt know how" or they spoke with people who quoted too much. Truthfully I dont charge these CRAZY prices I see people charge as it only costs me a few bucks to outsource my clients work. Sorry.....tangent......ummm yeah like I said, Do both Adsense & Offline if you can lol
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  • Profile picture of the author tylerjaysen
    yeah dude totally agree with you on this post topic. Adsense used to be really easy to get ranked and make a decent income monthly. However, these days slapping up a EMD site and waiting for adsense scraps is not really a good way to focus your time and energy to make money online. Your idea to go straight to the business owners is much more viable option if you can show the that your fee is generating clients from organic searches.
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  • Profile picture of the author outwest
    nNetwork, how many pages do your sites typically contain?
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  • Profile picture of the author jonkjonk
    I have both SEO clients and Adsense websites.

    I prefer my Adsense income because it's set and forget. You just keep adding to the income stream. Every now and then it drops (my earnings this month will be less than in Dec) but the lessons you learn are invaluable even when that happens.
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  • Profile picture of the author MaverickUK
    Mike I'm curious, how do you go about contacting these businesses? I'm not really one to approach a business offering a service they're more than likely to refuse, tired of hearing the same crap about not having the marketing funds available.

    The only serious SEO I've done is for friends, friends of friends or friends bosses who were interested. For that reason I'm more than happy to stick to affiliate marketing, product creation and the like - Adsense has you at their mercy, so f*** 'em (though I do make a nice sum off them none-the-less).
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by MaverickUK View Post

      Mike I'm curious, how do you go about contacting these businesses? I'm not really one to approach a business offering a service they're more than likely to refuse, tired of hearing the same crap about not having the marketing funds available..
      I know local is all the rage but I don't touch it. I will put it this way though.

      The so called saturation with people offering SEO who do not know what they are doing is a smart SEOs best money maker. They create a LOOOONG list of businesses who ARE interested and willing to pay but who are getting crappy results.
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  • Profile picture of the author James-
    Well i guess I am in the other boat here. It is stupidly easy to create an MFA site (it can still be useful and provide users with answers etc) that makes £50+ a day within a month/6 weeks. I'm finding it hard to want to do anything else, but i know i need to diversify.

    Long term, i do and will go into the consultancy side of things, but for now while i have a full time offline job and saving for a house it's nice to have a hefty AdSense check at the end of each month which is all passive income.
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    • Profile picture of the author mosthost
      Originally Posted by James- View Post

      Well i guess I am in the other boat here. It is stupidly easy to create an MFA site (it can still be useful and provide users with answers etc) that makes £50+ a day within a month/6 weeks. I'm finding it hard to want to do anything else, but i know i need to diversify.
      If you could do that consistently, you would have no need to diversify. After one year you would be earning 450 a day and you could just save money instead of worrying about diversifying traffic sources.

      The problem is, everyone always thinks the formula is building websites that all hit a certain revenue stream. It's easier said than done.
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    • Profile picture of the author outwest
      Originally Posted by James- View Post

      Well i guess I am in the other boat here. It is stupidly easy to create an MFA site (it can still be useful and provide users with answers etc) that makes £50+ a day within a month/6 weeks. I'm finding it hard to want to do anything else, but i know i need to diversify.

      Long term, i do and will go into the consultancy side of things, but for now while i have a full time offline job and saving for a house it's nice to have a hefty AdSense check at the end of each month which is all passive income.
      How many hours per day, for each site to get to that level in 6 wks?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by James- View Post

      Well i guess I am in the other boat here. It is stupidly easy to create an MFA site (it can still be useful and provide users with answers etc) that makes £50+ a day within a month/6 weeks. I'm finding it hard to want to do anything else, but i know i need to diversify.
      IN the years on WF we see claims like this ALL THE TIME and most of the time when/if the truth comes out it was all fluff and fairy dust. They were either making next to nothing or they had one site that made a moderate return and tried to generalize and act like all their sites were making that or more.

      When People Like Yukon who has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about with adsense tells me it takes building a good resource that people want to come back to I accept it and put the "I make good money easily within 30 days on my MFA sites" into the building hype for a WSO garbage heap.
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      • Profile picture of the author outwest
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        IN the years on WF we see claims like this ALL THE TIME and most of the time when/if the truth comes out it was all fluff and fairy dust. They were either making next to nothing or they had one site that made a moderate return and tried to generalize and act like all their sites were making that or more.

        When People Like Yukon who has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about with adsense tells me it takes building a good resource that people want to come back to I accept it and put the "I make good money easily within 30 days on my MFA sites" into the building hype for a WSO garbage heap.
        I believe its possible to get to that with Adsense on new sites, within 6 months,
        6 weeks? I have a hard time believing

        Now Freeson posted (he can barely speak english lives in Cambodia) that he went to 20-25/day in 2 months, and explained exactly how he backlinked etc etc, in his tutorial, I believe the guy, he seemed very sincere, and he did not say its easy. also he targeted 18k/month exact local search term, so that makes sense too

        it seems if you crank it out, you can add about $12/day every month to a new site. Does that sound reasonable
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      • Profile picture of the author James-
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        IN the years on WF we see claims like this ALL THE TIME and most of the time when/if the truth comes out it was all fluff and fairy dust. They were either making next to nothing or they had one site that made a moderate return and tried to generalize and act like all their sites were making that or more.

        When People Like Yukon who has demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about with adsense tells me it takes building a good resource that people want to come back to I accept it and put the "I make good money easily within 30 days on my MFA sites" into the building hype for a WSO garbage heap.
        I understand where you are coming from Mike, there certainly are a lot of people that talk crap on this forum, but even still, you know better than most what it takes in SEO. I'm willing to bet you know a hell of a lot more than i do, but even still, it doesnt take a genius to make big money with AdSense.

        I simply find terms that have a lot of traffic, not these stupid 3000+ exact match searches people go mad over for some reason. Ranking them to #1 is no harder than ranking a much lesser searched term since i did my research and comeption is pretty much the same (for the terms that i go for anyway)

        Backlink away, and around 6 weeks later i'm sitting top, or there abouts because there really isnt much competition. Without going into too much detail, i have a term that gets me around 1500+ uniques a day, averages around £0.24 a click, and get a CTR of around 13%.

        This really is very simple and i struggle to understand why people think they need 500 spammy EMD sites to make AdSense worthwhile.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by James- View Post

          I understand where you are coming from Mike, there certainly are a lot of people that talk crap on this forum, but even still, you know better than most what it takes in SEO. I'm willing to bet you know a hell of a lot more than i do,
          And thats why I know when you write the following quote you are talking utter nonsense

          I simply find terms that have a lot of traffic,..... Ranking them to #1 is no harder than ranking a much lesser searched term since i did my research and comeption is pretty much the same .......
          Backlink away, and around 6 weeks later i'm sitting top, or there abouts because there really isnt much competition.
          Terms that have high traffic and have good conversion tend to have better competition. Claiming that the competition is the same and you can just rank "top" for those terms "stupidly easy" in 6 weeks should be obvious to even a newb reading this as pure fluff and fairy dust.

          This aint a WSO thread James. Save the sales copy for that offer. You are writing in such a way to convey the idea that from start of the site to making good cash is 6 weeks and you can just rinse and repeat it stupid easy and get the same results over and over. Agreed with you on a lot of crap posts on this forum but you just added to them.
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          • Profile picture of the author James-
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Terms that have high trafficand have good conversion tend to have better competition. Claiming that the competition is the same and its just easy to rank "top" for those terms "stupidly easy" in 6 weeks should be obvious to even a newb reading this as pure bluster.

            This aint a WSO thread James. Save the sales copy for that offer.
            What I am saying is, I have found some terms that get a lot of traffic and no-one is really optimzed for the keywords. So instead of ranking a term for say a 1000 searches a month which if i tell you would take 6 weeks to rank you would all believe, the only difference is i have found ones that get a lot more searches and the competition is the same.

            I am sure you have come across some of these in your time, so why are you finding it hard to beleive?

            I am just telling you all what i do, i have nothing to sell, heck i dont even have a sig trying to get people to buy anything! I would love to show you proof, but since we are all in the same game here, it would be silly.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by James- View Post

              What I am saying is, I have found some terms that get a lot of traffic and no-one is really optimzed for the keywords. So instead of ranking a term for say a 1000 searches a month which if i tell you would take 6 weeks to rank you would all believe, the only difference is i have found ones that get a lot more searches and the competition is the same.

              I am sure you have come across some of these in your time, so why are you finding it hard to beleive?
              James let me see if I can spell this out clearer. Can you come across some terms that get good traffic with a little competition once in awhile? Yes.

              The aberrration does not make the rule. its not "stupid easy" to find a term getting you 45,000 uniques with little or no competition or good conversion terms that you can rank at the top in 6 weeks. You ARE blowing smoke

              Lets do the maths. Even number one doesn't get all the clicks from a search term. So you are talking 70,000 plus keyword searches (or you can choose a variety of keywords but then claiming to dominate a bunch of them in 6 weeks gets even dicier).

              Are those just sitting round "stupid easy" for terms that people will go to your site and in any reasonable quantity proceed to click through to and adsense link ( a conversion)? In such a way that you can just rinse and repeat over and over "stupid easy" finding these keywords that you rank number one in 6 weeks from start of site to finish?

              Nope. Like I said people stumble on one thing and then pretend like you can just duplicate it like a copying machine . Leads alot of good people astray. Its the hallmark of alot of WSO and product launches which is why I compare it to that.
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              • Profile picture of the author James-
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                The aberrration does not make the rule. its not "stupid easy" to find a term getting you 45,000 uniques with little or no competition or good conversion terms that you can rank at the top in 6 weeks. You ARE blowing smoke.
                Mike, you are taking what i said out of context, or perhaps i didn't write it in the correct manner, apologies. I am not saying ranking for these terms is stupidly easy, or at least i hope i didnt say that. I was saying that making £50 a day is stupidly easy considering what i have done.

                Granted, i have come across several keywords that do get 60k+ searches and these have been fairly easy to rank which is very rare which has allowed me to do this. I was just making the point that it is possible, not that everyone can expect to do this obviosuly. I just got lucky with my keyword research and stumbled upon them.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by James- View Post

                  I am not saying ranking for these terms is stupidly easy, or at least i hope i didnt say that. I was saying that making £50 a day is stupidly easy considering what i have done.
                  Think about how a site gets traffic to make the money and tell me the difference? There isn't any.

                  I can accept that you misspoke because you did if you go back and read what you wrote. it IS representing its something you can repeat easily over and over again and no mention at all about luck

                  It is stupidly easy to create an MFA site (it can still be useful and provide users with answers etc) that makes £50+ a day within a month/6 weeks. I'm finding it hard to want to do anything else,
                  I simply find terms that have a lot of traffic, not these stupid 3000+ exact match searches people go mad over for some reason. Ranking them to #1 is no harder than ranking a much lesser searched term since i did my research and comeption is pretty much the same (for the terms that i go for anyway)
                  ,
                  You represented that it was all simple with an easily repeated process over and over with multiple terms. I didn't take it out of context.
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        • Profile picture of the author patrich
          Originally Posted by James- View Post

          I simply find terms that have a lot of traffic, not these stupid 3000+ exact match searches people go mad over for some reason. Ranking them to #1 is no harder than ranking a much lesser searched term since i did my research and comeption is pretty much the same (for the terms that i go for anyway)

          Backlink away, and around 6 weeks later i'm sitting top, or there abouts because there really isnt much competition. Without going into too much detail, i have a term that gets me around 1500+ uniques a day, averages around £0.24 a click, and get a CTR of around 13%.
          I think I would have to take Mike's side in this argument. Having analyzed thousands upon thousands of keywords over the years, analyzing them from an adsense marketers perspective, VERY rarely would you find what I would consider to be a good keyword with over 3000 exact searches that would only take 6 weeks to rank. The only real exception here being that the cpc, or buyer intent was really low. Which is what I would consider to be the case since the keyword you are describing is only giving a cpc of £0.24.

          Generally speaking, the more traffic a keyword has, the more competition it has trying to compete for that traffic. I am pretty handy with my seo and have never not ranked for a keyword that I targeted, but realistically for a lets say 18,000 exact match term I usually allow at least a few months to hit page 1, and moving into the top 3 could take quite a while longer, of course depending on the sites that are in there.

          I very rarely even consider any keyword that has a cpc of less than $4.00, many of my keywords have a cpc of $10.00 or greater. It is not uncommon for me to receive clicks that pay out $5 to $10 on my end. But, essentially the point is, and I guess the point of this thread as well, is that adsense is not an easier or quicker option, its just an option. So those that are considering adsense, need to have realistic expectations of what will be involved and how much time it may take.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigNorm
            Originally Posted by patrich View Post

            I think I would have to take Mike's side in this argument. Having analyzed thousands upon thousands of keywords over the years, analyzing them from an adsense marketers perspective, VERY rarely would you find what I would consider to be a good keyword with over 3000 exact searches that would only take 6 weeks to rank. The only real exception here being that the cpc, or buyer intent was really low. Which is what I would consider to be the case since the keyword you are describing is only giving a cpc of £0.24.

            Generally speaking, the more traffic a keyword has, the more competition it has trying to compete for that traffic. I am pretty handy with my seo and have never not ranked for a keyword that I targeted, but realistically for a lets say 18,000 exact match term I usually allow at least a few months to hit page 1, and moving into the top 3 could take quite a while longer, of course depending on the sites that are in there.

            I very rarely even consider any keyword that has a cpc of less than $4.00, many of my keywords have a cpc of $10.00 or greater. It is not uncommon for me to receive clicks that pay out $5 to $10 on my end. But, essentially the point is, and I guess the point of this thread as well, is that adsense is not an easier or quicker option, its just an option. So those that are considering adsense, need to have realistic expectations of what will be involved and how much time it may take.

            While I do somewhat agree with you, there is the odd time where you find a highly searched term with badly optimized competition. I've never been a big believer in the whole, "KW's with 1000 exact monthly searches or more and have a CPC of $1.00 or more" is the ideal business model to follow when building my sites.

            I'd rather have lots of small slices of a large pie than fight with people over a few big pieces and this model has served me well. I'll be bold as to say that I will target KW's that may only have 500 searches a month, but 4-5 articles written around these KW's mounts to alot of traffic and easy to rank KW's.

            Even though I can see Mikes point in regards to why would you build your business around a service such as Adsense when Google can just yank your business from under you in the space of a click. I like Adsense because I am lazy. It costs me $130 to have a site built with 20 pages of 500+ words of content built around the KW's I choose, all optimized. Ten pages published as soon as the site goes live, the other 10 scheduled to drip feed over a 2 a half month period. All my backlinking is outsourced. On average, over the 2 month period, I probably invest 3-4 hours of my time in total.

            And thats why I do Adsense, I am lazy and it does make money if you find your own business model which best suits you.
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            • Profile picture of the author patrich
              Originally Posted by BigNorm View Post

              I'd rather have lots of small slices of a large pie than fight with people over a few big pieces and this model has served me well. I'll be bold as to say that I will target KW's that may only have 500 searches a month, but 4-5 articles written around these KW's mounts to alot of traffic and easy to rank KW's.
              The problem with your strategy is the same reason that many adsense marketers fail. They go after the small pieces of pie, be that low traffic or low cpc or both. I don't go after low anything.

              I am not building small "throw away sites" <- used loosely, I build sites that dominate large industries. Many of my sites compete directly with .gov agencies, colleges, etc. I don't want sites that make a few dollars a day, I want sites that make a few hundred dollars a day, which is why I am successful with the adsense model. Its also why I don't worry about what adsense may or may not do down the road.

              If my adsense account was closed this afternoon, I could be back to making money again by morning, most MFA guys can not say that. I have the "important part of the equation" which is traffic, traffic can be monetized with anything, I just choose adsense for its simplicity. I don't have to sell visitors, I just have to get them to click.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                Originally Posted by patrich View Post

                I am not building small "throw away sites" <- used loosely, I build sites that dominate large industries. Many of my sites compete directly with .gov agencies, colleges, etc. I don't want sites that make a few dollars a day, I want sites that make a few hundred dollars a day, which is why I am successful with the adsense model. Its also why I don't worry about what adsense may or may not do down the road.
                Right so my approach is similar to yours, question though -

                You say "dominate large industries". I can get my sites there, sure, but how do you ensure that your content is of top-of-the-line quality to be worthy of those positions?

                I mean... take my health sites. I don't get as many visitors as you do, maybe 300-500/day per site. But I have many sites. I can easily expand the sites, because they are built around good keywords and are all branded .com domains, so that's not a problem. My problem is content. I'm scared that once I take #1's for all of those keywords, while people like the content, it might not be the best thing for them. The articles aren't written by top experts, heck they aren't even written by MDs at all. Am I over thinking this?
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                • Profile picture of the author patrich
                  Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                  Right so my approach is similar to yours, question though -

                  You say "dominate large industries". I can get my sites there, sure, but how do you ensure that your content is of top-of-the-line quality to be worthy of those positions?

                  I mean... take my health sites. I don't get as many visitors as you do, maybe 300-500/day per site. But I have many sites. I can easily expand the sites, because they are built around good keywords and are all branded .com domains, so that's not a problem. My problem is content. I'm scared that once I take #1's for all of those keywords, while people like the content, it might not be the best thing for them. The articles aren't written by top experts, heck they aren't even written by MDs at all. Am I over thinking this?
                  Most of my content is written by me. I learn the industry before I build the site. I do my research and get to know how things work, what things are required and so forth. That way I can offer advice and information that provides people with the answers that they are looking for. I have been listed as a third party resource by many government agencies for various sites. I also receive hundreds of emails a day from people thanking me for the help and services that I offer.

                  You don't have to be an expert, you just have to find the answers to what people are looking for and make them accessible. People are surprisingly easy to please, if you make the effort to do so.

                  Another common tactic that I use is to communicate with people that are in the industry, educate them on search engines work, the value of backlinks and then encourage them to write content for my site in exchange for these benefits.

                  Basically, yes you are over thinking it. And over thinking will do nothing but send you into a downward spiral at some point. Over thinking leads to stress and procrastination.

                  Don't worry about what might happen when you get there. Worry about getting there and then use the feedback that you receive to make adjustments so that people are happy with what you offer.

                  Using your niche, medical, how many medical/healthcare sites do you think are actually written by doctors? Very few. In fact most of the content is written by people like you or me. You can't offer medical advice, but you can offer alternative solutions and information.

                  Did you know that most government work is not copyrighted? Any work created by government employees is entered directly into the public domain. The exception being work that was created by an outside contractor. Which means that sites like the CDC and Health.gov, etc., can all be used as tools for you to find the information you need to provide adequate information to your site visitors.
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              • Profile picture of the author BigNorm
                Originally Posted by patrich View Post

                The problem with your strategy is the same reason that many adsense marketers fail. They go after the small pieces of pie, be that low traffic or low cpc or both. I don't go after low anything.

                I am not building small "throw away sites" <- used loosely, I build sites that dominate large industries. Many of my sites compete directly with .gov agencies, colleges, etc. I don't want sites that make a few dollars a day, I want sites that make a few hundred dollars a day, which is why I am successful with the adsense model. Its also why I don't worry about what adsense may or may not do down the road.

                If my adsense account was closed this afternoon, I could be back to making money again by morning, most MFA guys can not say that. I have the "important part of the equation" which is traffic, traffic can be monetized with anything, I just choose adsense for its simplicity. I don't have to sell visitors, I just have to get them to click.
                Why would you assume my sites only a make a few dollars a day? Because I target lots of lower searched terms as well? That's a little presumptuous wouldn't you say? Would it seem surprising that this model serves me well and most of my websites get close to 10k+ unique visits per month, all of them making more than a "few dollars" per day.

                Granted I don't have individual sites making hundreds of dollars per day, which I'm gauging from your reply, your saying you do. But they do make good money, enough for me to pay for all my overheads related to my Adsense business, pay for my sports training, paying someone to design T Shirts for me and sponsoring guys from the Muay Thai gym I train at....and all from a business model which people would stay away from.
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                • Profile picture of the author patrich
                  Originally Posted by BigNorm View Post

                  Why would you assume my sites only a make a few dollars a day? Because I target lots of lower searched terms as well? That's a little presumptuous wouldn't you say? Would it seem surprising that this model serves me well and most of my websites get close to 10k+ unique visits per month, all of them making more than a "few dollars" per day.

                  Granted I don't have individual sites making hundreds of dollars per day, which I'm gauging from your reply, your saying you do. But they do make good money, enough for me to pay for all my overheads related to my Adsense business, pay for my sports training, paying someone to design T Shirts for me and sponsoring guys from the Muay Thai gym I train at....and all from a business model which people would stay away from.
                  Actually, in the second paragraph there I was making a generalization about that particular business model, not pointed at you directly. So, my apologies if you took it that way. I don't pretend to know what anyone earns from their sites as it really isn't any of my business.

                  However, while you may be an exception, it is more common to find people chasing the small pieces of pie earning very little if anything at all. Much of the information out there today recommends that people chase these 1000/month search terms etc., and typically that advice does nothing but set them up for failure down the road.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BigNorm
                    Originally Posted by patrich View Post

                    Actually, in the second paragraph there I was making a generalization about that particular business model, not pointed at you directly. So, my apologies if you took it that way. I don't pretend to know what anyone earns from their sites as it really isn't any of my business.

                    However, while you may be an exception, it is more common to find people chasing the small pieces of pie earning very little if anything at all. Much of the information out there today recommends that people chase these 1000/month search terms etc., and typically that advice does nothing but set them up for failure down the road.

                    It's cool. I completely agree, while I do target high search terms as well, I don't make this my key area of development. I think the problem with a majority of people who did go after the small pieces assume that you can target a couple of low search keywords and make money. It's an ongoing process, but if you know what your looking for and how broad a range it can be applied to, it can serve a person quite well if they target enough of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeoKnightsInc
    Well i dont agree with you adsense is much lot easier to build and get income you dont have to be a seo expert to get ranked if you choose your niche wisely and the proof is the presence of hundreds of rank magnets. Neither i had seen all the seo experts making thousands of dollars per months by other methods. We dont have to request for sales neither we have to make refunds its just setup a nice informative site and go on.
    Also its too easy to critique a prevailing system do we really have any alternative to GOOGLE adwords or adsense ?
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  • Profile picture of the author James-
    Patrich,

    I respect your opinion, and i agree with a lot of what you have said is right. I was merely just stating that i have found a fair few keywords that do have massive traffic and are easy to rank.

    I know this is not the norm, by a lot shot! I just wanted to tell people that it is possible.
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  • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    ...based on the points above adsense is a TOTAL waste for most IMers. Even Affiliate marketing is more versatile. There I said it and I can back it up because its the pure truth...
    Mike, you surely do make some good points, but as an Adsense publisher myself the first thing I can recognize is someone comparing apples with oranges.

    The mindsets of individuals are different (incl. myself).... some people don't mind handling customers and the burden of ensuring everyone is happy - I know I don't!

    I use my skill (seo) to build a passive income via Adsense and Aff. marketing and no1 can deter me.. coz I'm making good money without the hassle of taking care of customers

    (Sorry if you can't do the same Mike)
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Eleva8 View Post

      Mike, you surely do make some good points, but as an Adsense publisher myself the first thing I can recognize is someone comparing apples with oranges.

      and I can recognize when a cliche is soooo over killed. Just because some people don't like communicating with people doesn't mean the whole analysis is "apples to oranges" . the Op spells out the similarities pretty clearly.

      Does everyone who does adsense hate relating to people that makes doing adsense an apple instead of an orange? Thats Strange for people in this thread because they all just by posting already doing the very kind of communication that I do every day. Typing on my keyboard.

      As for this hyped up stuff about pleasing customers, dealing with them Yad, yady,, yada :rolleyes:. Those of you trumping up that to more than it is are showing signs of just not knowing about what makes a SEO business run.

      I do not care if my customers are happy. I don't call them to ask them. shocking? For some perhaps but I already KNOW what makes them happy and its nothing odd - its what I offer.

      My longer term customers can go weeks without talking to me because frankly they care about one thing only - the same thing I care about "where is there site placing in the search engines". They see it and know it and smile or frown

      If top 3 they are happy. End of story. None of the trying to plase them and "answering to them" and constant communicating back and forth you guys are trying to sell as soo hard. Deliver what you promise. rankings. the same kind of ranking that if you don't achieve in Adsense you are out of a business as well.


      Now i realize on WF SEO is a little different . Lots of you do link counting. "10,000 links" and "where is my report" and "how fast did you place them" and junk like that. I got one customer like that from here that is no longer my customer. Ranked number two within two weeks of using links I gave him and cried like a baby because he didn't get a report on the location for the last two. Hence I rarely take customers from here anymore for full SEO.

      SEO world is hundreds of time bigger than WF though. To each his own. I'lltake dropping a few lines like everyone is doing in this thread anyway and have my business untethered from waking up one morning and the one company I work for saying my account has been suspended or decides unilaterally to change my payout.
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      • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        and I can recognize when a cliche is soooo over killed. Just because some people don't like communicating with people doesn't mean the whole analysis is "apples to oranges" . the Op spells out the similarities pretty clearly.

        Does everyone who does adsense hate relating to people that makes doing adsense an apple instead of an orange? Thats Strange for people in this thread because they all just by posting already doing the very kind of communication that I do every day. Typing on my keyboard.
        Well Done!!! 5 Stars! You cannot distinguish similarities when you have not experinced both sides.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Eleva8 View Post

          Well Done!!! 5 Stars! You cannot distinguish similarities when you have not experinced both sides.
          That argument right there........

          Apples and oranges
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      • Profile picture of the author patrich
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        and I can recognize when a cliche is soooo over killed. Just because some people don't like communicating with people doesn't mean the whole analysis is "apples to oranges" . the Op spells out the similarities pretty clearly.

        Does everyone who does adsense hate relating to people that makes doing adsense an apple instead of an orange? Thats Strange for people in this thread because they all just by posting already doing the very kind of communication that I do every day. Typing on my keyboard.

        As for this hyped up stuff about pleasing customers, dealing with them Yad, yady,, yada :rolleyes:. Those of you trumping up that to more than it is are showing signs of just not knowing about what makes a SEO business run.

        I do not care if my customers are happy. I don't call them to ask them. shocking? For some perhaps but I already KNOW what makes them happy and its nothing odd - its what I offer.

        My longer term customers can go weeks without talking to me because frankly they care about one thing only - the same thing I care about "where is there site placing in the search engines". They see it and know it and smile or frown

        If top 3 they are happy. End of story. None of the trying to plase them and "answering to them" and constant communicating back and forth you guys are trying to sell as soo hard. Deliver what you promise. rankings. the same kind of ranking that if you don't achieve in Adsense you are out of a business as well.


        Now i realize on WF SEO is a little different . Lots of you do link counting. "10,000 links" and "where is my report" and "how fast did you place them" and junk like that. I got one customer like that from here that is no longer my customer. Ranked number two within two weeks of using links I gave him and cried like a baby because he didn't get a report on the location for the last two. Hence I rarely take customers from here anymore for full SEO.

        SEO world is hundreds of time bigger than WF though. To each his own. I'lltake dropping a few lines like everyone is doing in this thread anyway and have my business untethered from waking up one morning and the one company I work for saying my account has been suspended or decides unilaterally to change my payout.
        Mike, I think everything you have said up to this point is excellent information for people to use that are considering adsense or that have tried adsense with limited results.

        Although, for someone such as myself, I wouldn't even humor the idea of changing what I do for a living I am not worried about what google changes or decides to do, it doesn't make any difference to me. I change over advertising and move on. I am sure Yukon is in the same boat.

        When I started, I didn't decide to build sites that make some money. I decided to build a business and that is what I did. The very worst case scenario for me, I sell off my sites and retire. Retirement wouldn't be all that bad for someone in their early 30's! lol
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  • Profile picture of the author dminorfmajor
    I've recently started embarking on an authority site without AdSense. I'm glad I saw this post. The clicks are too low and inconsistent.
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