haha, funny - how google analytics could be 'hurting' you...

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Thought it was interesting/enlightening reading some of the 'OMFG! google has deranked my site AGAIN!' threads...

Oone thing that is REALLY funny (and sad in a way)... is that...

Wwith the expression 'there is no such thing as a free lunch', seems to be quite true with google analytics...

In *essense* -- for a *free* webtraffic report -- you are giving google unfettered access to your search queries, your user search patterns -- your landing/squeeze page, your 'backlink' partners, etc, etc...

In otherwords -- if you are trying to game Google with link farms, autoblogs, paid links, and so forth -- and running google analytics at the same time...



Its like inviting a police cop over to watch you as you install illegal mods on your car, from nitro, to 90% tint windows, while he is sitting there, watching you putting everything on step by step... and then you wonder, why as soon as you put the key in the ignition to get started -- you get pulled over by a cop...

That's what running google analytics for "free" on your site is like... especially if you are using any "potentially" 'questionable' tactics to promote it...

While google did 'buy' Urchin a long time ago (a really fantastic piece of logging software -- the best at the time) -- there are much better alternatives nowadays -- without revealing the 'secret' sauce of your website...

Something to think about...

Johnathan

EDIT:

I decided to cut & paste one of my responses, because it seems there were a few misinformed individuals here, and this should help clarify a few things...

Originally Posted by Ralf Skirr View Post

1. Google Analytics data is not used by Google's ranking algorithms.
1. Read the license agreement here, that you most likely signed up for when you joined GA.

google.com/analytics/tos.html

Specifically section 6, "Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries may retain and use, subject to the terms of its Privacy Policy (located at google.com/policies/privacy/ , or such other URL as Google may provide from time to time), information collected in Your use of the Service."

Reading the privacy policy, they go into the details of the information they collect, plus include this:

"We use the information we collect from all of our services to provide, maintain, protect and improve them, to develop new ones, and to protect Google and our users. We also use this information to offer you tailored content – like giving you more relevant search results and ads. "

In other words, if you are spamming them, they can figure it out.

And... on a different note -- do you think Google would offer a service that would use bandwith, cost them money (albeit maybe not that much), --just because they are 'nice' guys and want to be your friend?

Originally Posted by Ralf Skirr View Post

2. Web master tools does not give Google 1 bit of information that they can't get by crawling your web site.
2. That is incorrect.

If a search engine "crawls" your site, it really only has access to the "structure" of your site, the "content", and of course information (structurally) that it cleans from other websites (i.e., backlinks).

If you have a log analyzer (such as Google Analytics), installed on your domain, then it can see the *following* additional information:

- how long people stay on pages on your site ("bounce rate", a good metric in determining whether your page has "useful" content, because they can compare it to hundreds of thousands of other web pages)
- who your "real" link referrers are. (In other words, the ability to discern if a link is a "paid" link (i.e.,gets no traffic, but is high ranking), or is a "real" link (not necessarily 'high' ranking, but sends you traffic).
- "how" people use your site. (I.e., do they just visit the main home page,or do they read 5-10 articles on it, a video, then go to your contact form?)
- Plus MANY, many other metrics.

This means that google, using this information, can *very* easily tell if you are a spam site, or a legit site.

It also gives them the ability to "mass" update their algorithm, if they say see a "trend" in certain activity... (i.e.,say 1000 internet marketers all purchasing the 'same' backlink package)...

Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

Johnathan, what are the better alternatives to Analytics? I'm interested.
3. Do a search (in google) for "web log analyzer". While it will take a couple minutes longer to use (and may not have the 'instant' convenience of analytics), you will be able to analyze yourown weblogs, whenever you want, plus in many cases get a lot more information then google analytics provides.

If you don't know how to analyze (or store) your own web logs, getting a programmer from fiverr or an outsourcing site is an inexpensive, yet effective alternative.
#analytics #funny #google #haha #hurting
  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    They keep getting Smarter and Smarter! Google is going to rule the planet!
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    • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
      Originally Posted by Kal Sallam View Post

      They keep getting Smarter and Smarter! Google is going to rule the planet!

      Earth isn't big enough for Google anymore.

      Apparently Google is aiming a rocket at Planet X right now as it passes by.

      Amongst other things, in the payload are some Google Camera Cars to enable street view of the new planet and a few algorithms to screw up that planet's search engine results.

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      • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
        Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

        Earth isn't big enough for Google anymore.

        Apparently Google is aiming a rocket at Planet X right now as it passes by.

        Amongst other things, in the payload are some Google Camera Cars to enable street view of the new planet and a few algorithms to screw up that planet's search engine results.

        Great catch but I think they're just a sponsor of NASA.
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  • Profile picture of the author goosefrabah
    Is it too late if you already have webmaster tools and analytics? Would removing them be enough?
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    • Originally Posted by goosefrabah View Post

      Is it too late if you already have webmaster tools and analytics? Would removing them be enough?
      Well... it would probably be too late for the data you've *already* made accessible to them... but for future data, if you removed code, it should prevent the same kind of access as before...
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      • Profile picture of the author goosefrabah
        Originally Posted by InternetSuccess001 View Post

        Well... it would probably be too late for the data you've *already* made accessible to them... but for future data, if you removed code, it should prevent the same kind of access as before...
        Very good , tired of their over snooping anyway. Thank you kind sir or mam
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        • Profile picture of the author Jit Lim
          Great post Johnathan. I was just saying the same thing on another post here, basically giving Google the keys to your house.
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          • Profile picture of the author capitalalchemy
            You know, as smart as I consider myself to be about SEO...I never really thought of this. I'm all for limited access of information to Google, considering that their new version of analytics is inconvenient, sucks and that they no longer (in most cases) share with you your biggest sources of search traffic to "protect" their users.

            I think I'm done with them. Their services are useless (whether you are user or developer), and they are invasive.
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  • Profile picture of the author ProAffiliate01
    This is a pretty good analogy. So, to use Google Analytics or not to? LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author Val Wilson
    Any suggestions to good free alternatives to Google analytics?
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    • Profile picture of the author iobeek
      Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

      Any suggestions to good free alternatives to Google analytics?
      How about raw access log and Visitors ?
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  • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
    Sorry, I just fail to understand the argument here.

    The data that G gets regarding your site from Analytics is from data on your website. How does this give them information about linking strategies that they wouldn't have access to already? If the links have any value for SEO purposes (ie have been indexed by Google) then G already knows that they exist.

    The whole idea of 'don't install WMT and Analytics because Google will know what you're doing' smacks of paranoid nonsense to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
      The warning about Analytics and web master tools is one of the myths people love to spread. It's plain wrong. A close second to the duplicate content myth.

      1. Google Analytics data is not used by Google's ranking algorithms.

      2. Web master tools does not give Google 1 bit of information that they can't get by crawling your web site.

      Johnathan, what are the better alternatives to Analytics? I'm interested.
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    • Profile picture of the author Val Wilson
      Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

      Sorry, I just fail to understand the argument here.

      The data that G gets regarding your site from Analytics is from data on your website. How does this give them information about linking strategies that they wouldn't have access to already? If the links have any value for SEO purposes (ie have been indexed by Google) then G already knows that they exist.

      The whole idea of 'don't install WMT and Analytics because Google will know what you're doing' smacks of paranoid nonsense to me.
      Surely the point of installing Google's script on your site is to allow Google to get data that it could not otherwise get?

      Maybe it is just paranoid, but personally I think it wise to err on the side of caution. If I could find a good alternative, I would not use Google analytics.
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      • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
        Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

        Surely the point of installing Google's script on your site is to allow Google to get data that it could not otherwise get?

        Maybe it is just paranoid, but personally I think it wise to err on the side of caution. If I could find a good alternative, I would not use Google analytics.
        No, it's to allow you access to data that you couldn't otherwise get. This is certainly the case with WMT. There are plenty of providers for traffic analysis, GA is just one of many options out there.

        Analytics does provide data to Google about visitor behaviour and demographics on your site that its spiders would not pick up, but nothing about content and certainly nothing about off-site SEO. Both of those (and they are the things that are likely to get you penalized) can be detected by G with or without their script installed on your site.
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        • Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

          No, it's to allow you access to data that you couldn't otherwise get. This is certainly the case with WMT. There are plenty of providers for traffic analysis, GA is just one of many options out there.

          Analytics does provide data to Google about visitor behaviour and demographics on your site that its spiders would not pick up, but nothing about content and certainly nothing about off-site SEO. Both of those (and they are the things that are likely to get you penalized) can be detected by G with or without their script installed on your site.
          You are mistaken. I am assuming based on your response, you either have little or no programming experience.

          See
          Originally Posted by this post --> (click this little arrow) View Post

          x
          for my response to that...
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          • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
            Originally Posted by InternetSuccess001 View Post

            You are mistaken. I am assuming based on your response, you either have little or no programming experience.

            See

            for my response to that...
            Actually that's an incorrect assumption, but by the by anyway.

            If you read my posts (I assume you did but the point was easy to miss) I acknowledged that yes, if Google use the data gathered from GA- bounce rate etc., then yes, having Analytics installed might be a bad thing (if you suffer from poor visitor retention).

            However, if you think that it makes them more likely to 'catch' builders of spammy websites, I'd like you to explain why you think this? As I mentioned earlier, all of the information about links to your site is publically available. The only thing that analytics provides is on site activity- all link backs, content and so on is crawled by Google anyway.

            And it would be highly unlikely that Google uses analytics data to determine 'paid' links- yes they can find out about this but not through GA- it just wouldn't make sense. High PR but low traffic links can be caused by any number of things, and it is not a definite indicator of a spammy or paid backlink.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
              You see the single most misunderstood aspect of all online business is this, Google is a business first and foremost, anyone that fails to appreciate this fact is doomed to ignorance.

              Do you really think that Google Analytics is there solely for your benefit and enjoyment?

              I mean really, you would have to be somewhat twisted to not see that connection.

              GA, is there to do one thing and one thing only to understand and appreciate that fact one need only read the TOS but since most people do not bother to read the fine print they do not know the truth...

              "Customer Data" means the data concerning the characteristics and activities of visitors to your website that is collected through use of the UTM and then forwarded to the Servers and analyzed by the Processing Software.

              Now, GA never mentions what happens to the data once it get to the processing software, in fact you will not see any mention of that fact,

              6. INFORMATION RIGHTS AND PUBLICITY . Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries may retain and use, subject to the terms of its Privacy Policy (located at Privacy Policy ? Policies & Principles ? Google , or such other URL as Google may provide from time to time), information collected in Your use of the Service. Google will not share information associated with You or your Site with any third parties unless Google (i) has Your consent; (ii) concludes that it is required by law or has a good faith belief that access, preservation or disclosure of such information is reasonably necessary to protect the rights, property or safety of Google, its users or the public; or (iii) provides such information in certain limited circumstances to third parties to carry out tasks on Google's behalf (e.g., billing or data storage) with strict restrictions that prevent the data from being used or shared except as directed by Google . When this is done, it is subject to agreements that oblige those parties to process such information only on Google's instructions and in compliance with this Agreement and appropriate confidentiality and security measures.
              Now, I want you to take careful notice of the above information,

              information collected in Your use of the Service.

              Look at that very carefully, and tell me, again that you think Google will not use that information in a way that you never even considered before...

              GA, is not a good thing at all, more so when you consider that your own server logs contains more valuable information that you will ever get from GA, and you don't have to share that with anyone...

              Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

              Actually that's an incorrect assumption, but by the by anyway.

              If you read my posts (I assume you did but the point was easy to miss) I acknowledged that yes, if Google use the data gathered from GA- bounce rate etc., then yes, having Analytics installed might be a bad thing (if you suffer from poor visitor retention).

              However, if you think that it makes them more likely to 'catch' builders of spammy websites, I'd like you to explain why you think this? As I mentioned earlier, all of the information about links to your site is publically available. The only thing that analytics provides is on site activity- all link backs, content and so on is crawled by Google anyway.

              And it would be highly unlikely that Google uses analytics data to determine 'paid' links- yes they can find out about this but not through GA- it just wouldn't make sense. High PR but low traffic links can be caused by any number of things, and it is not a definite indicator of a spammy or paid backlink.
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              • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
                I'm somewhat confused as to the link between my post and that quote from the TOS, Tim.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
                  Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

                  I'm somewhat confused as to the link between my post and that quote from the TOS, Tim.
                  Actually, your quote was not intended to be published along with that post, been seeing some odd behavior with the WF forum for the last couple of days, requests not being processed, server time outs, I think its possible that some of the requests for posting are being handled differently, I saw something odd about a post that seemed to indicate that there may be some odd issue that they may be sorting out.

                  But if your interested in some back end data that will convince you that GA is not good for your business just PM me...
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              • Profile picture of the author LeoShad
                Tim Frankin...Thanks for your very informative post. You are really wise!...I don't know why so many people are so naive with regards to G and always try to defend it. I lost most of my top positions within a few days of installing GA. By the way I don't do any spamming etc. I am inclined to believe that maybe GA has some "bug" in it. Because after I added it to my site, some pages that were indexed earlier started showing up older version.
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                • Profile picture of the author retsek
                  Originally Posted by LeoShad View Post

                  By the way I don't do any spamming etc. I am inclined to believe that maybe GA has some "bug" in it.
                  Yeah sure. That must it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Thinking_man_too
          With google analytics and webmaster it lets google tie all your sites together. Relates them. TO YOU. If you have one bad site (black hat or poor content or to many ads or whatever) who is to say google does not assume your other sites are bad as well...or make them check to see?
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    • Hi,

      Answering a few questions:


      Originally Posted by Ralf Skirr View Post

      1. Google Analytics data is not used by Google's ranking algorithms.
      1. Read the license agreement here, that you most likely signed up for when you joined GA.

      google.com/analytics/tos.html

      Specifically section 6, "Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries may retain and use, subject to the terms of its Privacy Policy (located at google.com/policies/privacy/ , or such other URL as Google may provide from time to time), information collected in Your use of the Service."

      Reading the privacy policy, they go into the details of the information they collect, plus include this:

      "We use the information we collect from all of our services to provide, maintain, protect and improve them, to develop new ones, and to protect Google and our users. We also use this information to offer you tailored content – like giving you more relevant search results and ads. "

      In other words, if you are spamming them, they can figure it out.

      And... on a different note -- do you think Google would offer a service that would use bandwith, cost them money (albeit maybe not that much), --just because they are 'nice' guys and want to be your friend?

      Originally Posted by Ralf Skirr View Post

      2. Web master tools does not give Google 1 bit of information that they can't get by crawling your web site.
      2. That is incorrect.

      If a search engine "crawls" your site, it really only has access to the "structure" of your site, the "content", and of course information (structurally) that it cleans from other websites (i.e., backlinks).

      If you have a log analyzer (such as Google Analytics), installed on your domain, then it can see the *following* additional information:

      - how long people stay on pages on your site ("bounce rate", a good metric in determining whether your page has "useful" content, because they can compare it to hundreds of thousands of other web pages)
      - who your "real" link referrers are. (In other words, the ability to discern if a link is a "paid" link (i.e.,gets no traffic, but is high ranking), or is a "real" link (not necessarily 'high' ranking, but sends you traffic).
      - Plus MANY, many other metrics.

      This means that google, using this information, can *very* easily tell if you are a spam site, or a legit site.

      It also gives them the ability to "mass" update their algorithm, if they say see a "trend" in certain activity... (i.e.,say 1000 internet marketers all purchasing the 'same' backlink package)...

      Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

      Johnathan, what are the better alternatives to Analytics? I'm interested.
      3. Do a search (in google) for "web log analyzer". While it will take a couple minutes longer to use (and may not have the 'instant' convenience of analytics), you will be able to analyze yourown weblogs, whenever you want, plus in many cases get a lot more information then google analytics provides.

      If you don't know how to analyze (or store) your own web logs, getting a programmer from fiverr or an outsourcing site is an inexpensive, yet effective alternative.
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  • Profile picture of the author tanshi
    Using WMT you only get a chance to see by yourself what Google already knows about yourself. Or at least a part of what Google knows.

    I think using WMT can't hurt, it will only give you more information.

    But if you begin to interact with them, ask for reconsideration and stuff yes, it will probably hurt because you will get them to review your website. Manual review by google stuff is hard to pass
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    • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
      Originally Posted by tanshi View Post

      But if you begin to interact with them, ask for reconsideration and stuff yes, it will probably hurt because you will get them to review your website. Manual review by google stuff is hard to pass
      No, a reconsideration request will only hurt you if your website still doesn't meet Google's quality guidelines.

      People should really stop worrying about Google being able to access your data and start focusing on other traffic generating methods. Google traffic should be a bonus- NOT the be all and end all. It's much too unreliable to build a business on.
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  • Profile picture of the author savvybizbuilder
    Well, better switch to decent SEO strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
    Another option would be not to try and game the system by using dodgy linking strategies?? Just a thought lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Val Wilson
      Originally Posted by phil.wheatley View Post

      Another option would be not to try and game the system by using dodgy linking strategies?? Just a thought lol
      Problem is anything apart from building a site and just waiting for visitors to come could be classed as gaming the system in Google's eyes. All link building - whether it be article marketing, blog commenting, guest blogging, or whatever - is designed to get your site to the top of the search engines, by making Google think it is popular.
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      • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
        Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

        All link building - whether it be article marketing, blog commenting, guest blogging, or whatever - is designed to get your site to the top of the search engines, by making Google think it is popular.
        False, or at least it should be.

        The vast majority of my link building has nothing to do with search engine ranking. Frankly, I could care less what Google thinks about my site.

        The aim should always be to build up links that will suck in highly targeted traffic from a diverse range of sources.

        Of course, providing these visitors with value and a quality user experience tends to go hand in hand with building a website that matches Google's 'quality guidelines', so I often find that I rank highly as well.

        It's the greatest fallacy in this community that where you rank in the SERPS is the be all and end all. It's not, far from it.
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      • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
        Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

        Problem is anything apart from building a site and just waiting for visitors to come could be classed as gaming the system in Google's eyes. All link building - whether it be article marketing, blog commenting, guest blogging, or whatever - is designed to get your site to the top of the search engines, by making Google think it is popular.
        I do agree with you on that. In fact, some people are saying there is an element of risk to building big authority sites, as Google can sometimes make 'mistakes' and slap your site for no good reason.

        I know it's a cliche about 'just build good content / good products' and Google will come, I don't think that is entirely true....however, I'm doing things now with the mindset of NOT relying on Google, instead making the site great and then actively marketing it, both online (FB, forums etc) and in some cases, offline (dpeneding on the niche of course). Once you do enough of that at the start, if the site really IS good, then the word will spread.

        Ironically, why would Google want that, woudn't that mean you don't need Google. It's all a bit confusing what it is they want.

        Others have said they are deliberately making the search results a bit rubbish so that people are more inclined to pay for paid ads to advertise their business. Who knows what they are up to????? Again, comes back to the point of trying to build a business that doesn't reply on Google. This takes time of course.

        Cheers
        Phil
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
        Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

        Problem is anything apart from building a site and just waiting for visitors to come could be classed as gaming the system in Google's eyes. All link building - whether it be article marketing, blog commenting, guest blogging, or whatever - is designed to get your site to the top of the search engines, by making Google think it is popular.
        Not really.

        For example, getting an article syndicated on someone else's Authority site isn't (primarily) about getting to the top of a search engine... it's about the additional readers who will read your material, and the fresh traffic that will come from that Authority site as a result.

        The backlink is just the icing on the cake

        Google is perfectly aware that sites link to other sites, that's what kind of makes the Internet what it is!

        However, creating sploggy splogs (a made-up term) by the hundreds, with the sole intention of getting backlinks, IS gaming the system, pure and simple.

        Everybody knows what I mean... creating a tumblr blog with a couple of re-hashed articles and backlinks... then doing this on every content and free blogging service they can find.

        These are created solely for the purpose of "getting backlinks" and therefore gaming Google.

        I'm sure Google understand this difference
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        • Profile picture of the author Val Wilson
          Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

          Problem is anything apart from building a site and just waiting for visitors to come could be classed as gaming the system in Google's eyes. All link building - whether it be article marketing, blog commenting, guest blogging, or whatever - is designed to get your site to the top of the search engines, by making Google think it is popular.
          I'm maybe just getting into semantics here, but I think it is important to distinguish between linkbuilding which is creating links with the sole purpose of improving the SEO of your site and therefore your search engine ranking - and links for traffic generation - for example through article syndication, where the primary aim is to get people to click your link and therefore visit your site.

          Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

          False, or at least it should be.

          The vast majority of my link building has nothing to do with search engine ranking. Frankly, I could care less what Google thinks about my site.

          The aim should always be to build up links that will suck in highly targeted traffic from a diverse range of sources.
          So for me this is not linkbuilding, as I understand it - this is traffic generation.

          Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

          Not really.

          For example, getting an article syndicated on someone else's Authority site isn't (primarily) about getting to the top of a search engine... it's about the additional readers who will read your material, and the fresh traffic that will come from that Authority site as a result.

          The backlink is just the icing on the cake
          Again, this is not linkbuilding.

          I'm not knocking these methods - far from it. I was just saying if you are linkbuilding to try to rise up the SERPS,then all methods are fair game to the Google police - which is why there is paranoia (justified or otherwise) about Google analytics.
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          • Profile picture of the author origin
            Originally Posted by Val Wilson View Post

            I'm maybe just getting into semantics here, but I think it is important to distinguish between linkbuilding which is creating links with the sole purpose of improving the SEO of your site and therefore your search engine ranking - and links for traffic generation - for example through article syndication, where the primary aim is to get people to click your link and therefore visit your site.



            So for me this is not linkbuilding, as I understand it - this is traffic generation.



            Again, this is not linkbuilding.

            I'm not knocking these methods - far from it. I was just saying if you are linkbuilding to try to rise up the SERPS,then all methods are fair game to the Google police - which is why there is paranoia (justified or otherwise) about Google analytics.
            Hi Val!

            Question is, does GOOGLE know the difference in these and will they give you the benefit of the doubt? With them it is QUILTY until proven innocent... Fact is, you are building links if you link to anything. It's now for Google to decide if that is a "real" link or a bad one, they decide...
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            • Profile picture of the author gtrujillo
              I use Wassup plugin for Wordpress and it has served me well. Simple quick and give me the info I need. Not afraid of google and their complicated products.
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            • Profile picture of the author extremejava
              This is correct. One of my website which doesn't use webmasters and analytics is un-effected. Although similar content was present on the one which got a lot of de-indexing from google.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I don't use analytics or Webmaster tools for precisely that reason. I get my traffic stats from AW Stats and Statcounter.

    Myth or not, I don't need Google to tell me where my traffic is coming from.
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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I don't use analytics or Webmaster tools for precisely that reason. I get my traffic stats from AW Stats and Statcounter.

      Myth or not, I don't need Google to tell me where my traffic is coming from.
      bingo! Exactly! I use Awstats. If you have cpanel with your web hosting you DO NOT need Google Analytics. There are about 4 stats programs within your cpanel, of which Awstats is the most in-depth.


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      • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
        My opinion on this is driven more by emotion than expertise..

        <RANT>
        I was building websites long before there was a "Google". I owned the websites I built (unless I was building them for someone else - in that case they owned the site). The only part of the internet that Google owns are the sites that they built. Therefore, unless they are paying me directly for my online efforts (thru adsense, etc.) they have no business knowing anything about my sites, other than what any other person is able to know. Even if G is a large part of my business strategy (organic traffic, etc.) they are not part of my business.

        If you feel the benefits of being with GA are great enough to give them information that they don't deserve to have a right to, I certainly wouldn't fault you - maybe I'm just crankier than the average joe :rolleyes:
        </RANT>

        "That's my rant... Thank you for listening"

        joe
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Here's a free, open source alternative, which offers many (if not all) of the same analytics, without giving Google your data...

    Piwik - Web analytics - Open source
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  • Profile picture of the author JaynKeth
    Thanks for sharing... it seems like most people did not relate that to google watching us... well... we will have to make sure we always use legitimate way to build backlink.

    Otherwise, start listbuilding and get traffic through other sources like here in forum or article marketing, which are much more "stable".
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    I dont think that using Google webmaster tools or analytics is going to get you into trouble, especially if you are not doing anything dodgy.

    But the real risk is that it allows Google to see all the sites that you own. So, if you are building MFA sites, thin affiliate sites or other types of sites that Google frowns upon then once they find one of them, they can easily discover the rest of them and apply the same penalty.

    Of course, they can also do this if you are hosting on the same server, using adsense and maybe even through your amazon affiliate id too.

    I think the moral of the story is to not depend on Google search engine traffic.
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    • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
      Originally Posted by cashcow View Post

      I dont think that using Google webmaster tools or analytics is going to get you into trouble, especially if you are not doing anything dodgy.

      But the real risk is that it allows Google to see all the sites that you own. So, if you are building MFA sites, thin affiliate sites or other types of sites that Google frowns upon then once they find one of them, they can easily discover the rest of them and apply the same penalty.
      This (and I mean no disrespect by this) is the mentality that I just can't understand.

      If Google lists any MFA or thin affiliate sites in the SERPS, then they've already 'found' them. If one gets slapped by an algo change, and the others utilize near identical strategies, then chances are they'll all get slapped by the same penalty, regardless of the host or IP etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author cashcow
        Originally Posted by MidlandsMarketer View Post

        This (and I mean no disrespect by this) is the mentality that I just can't understand.

        If Google lists any MFA or thin affiliate sites in the SERPS, then they've already 'found' them. If one gets slapped by an algo change, and the others utilize near identical strategies, then chances are they'll all get slapped by the same penalty, regardless of the host or IP etc.
        That's not necessarily true. Google has been working at getting rid of these types of sites for years, but obviously many of them still exist and rank well. Not everyone gets all their sites slapped due to an algorithm change, just read the thread on this and other forums and you will see lots of people musing over how one or two sites got slapped while others didn't.

        I was actually agreeing with your earlier statement that simply having analytics or webmaster tools on your site won't be the reason you get your site penalized. But one reason to not have it might be that you don't want google to find all your sites because then they can manually review them and apply penalties to ones that may have slipped through the cracks.

        Lee
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        • Profile picture of the author MidlandsMarketer
          Originally Posted by cashcow View Post

          That's not necessarily true. Google has been working at getting rid of these types of sites for years, but obviously many of them still exist and rank well. Not everyone gets all their sites slapped due to an algorithm change, just read the thread on this and other forums and you will see lots of people musing over how one or two sites got slapped while others didn't.

          I was actually agreeing with your earlier statement that simply having analytics or webmaster tools on your site won't be the reason you get your site penalized. But one reason to not have it might be that you don't want google to find all your sites because then they can manually review them and apply penalties to ones that may have slipped through the cracks.

          Lee
          Fair enough- like I said it's a viewpoint I don't understand, I'm not suggesting it doesn't have its merits

          I get what you mean about not everyone having their sites penalized because of algo changes- though I think keeping sites 'seperate' by sticking away from Google's toolset is an ultimately fruitless endeavour anyway. If one can get penalized, it's only a matter of time before your others (assuming they're in breach of the same guidelines) do as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mister Rex
    You guys on this forum are so quick to come up with the strangest things when Google makes a change.

    Dont use Analytics and WMT, because google spies on you? Its sad that you are serious.

    Here is a fact you might find interesting. All my sites have Analytics and WMT. Not one of my sites lost a single spot with this newest update, nor did I get dinged by any panda updates last year.

    Analytics has NOTHING to do with this and it would be laughable had this concept not lured so many other people in. You got dinged by this algo update because your links suck - plain and simple.

    Here is what I dont do. I dont build link wheels. I dont build blog comments. I dont build Wikis. I dont do forum profiles. I only do links by hand in accordance with Google's guidelines. And, as a result of playing by the rules, I am never affected... negatively, anyway. I now have one site that ranks for a single word keyword that has 200K searches a month - and not one exact anchor text in my entire backlink portfolio.

    Newbies and others reading the OP. Please ignore it and wait for real SEOs to figure things out.
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    • Hi,

      Just because you personally didn't lose any spot doesn't mean it does not glean information from your site, nor does it mean it won't affect you in the future. That is a poor argument.

      If you are plan by google's rules though -- then that is good to hear. You will most likely continue to enjoy the same search benefits you do, unless google at some point in time figures you shouldn't be selling whatever you are selling.

      But most people do resort to - at the very least - some basic backlinking to their site, to get a temporary boost. With GA installed, it gives them immediate & easy access to determine if it is a legit site or not.

      Johnathan

      Originally Posted by Mister Rex View Post

      You guys on this forum are so quick to come up with the strangest things when Google makes a change.

      Dont use Analytics and WMT, because google spies on you? Its sad that you are serious.

      Here is a fact you might find interesting. All my sites have Analytics and WMT. Not one of my sites lost a single spot with this newest update, nor did I get dinged by any panda updates last year.

      Analytics has NOTHING to do with this and it would be laughable had this concept not lured so many other people in. You got dinged by this algo update because your links suck - plain and simple.

      Here is what I dont do. I dont build link wheels. I dont build blog comments. I dont build Wikis. I dont do forum profiles. I only do links by hand in accordance with Google's guidelines. And, as a result of playing by the rules, I am never affected... negatively, anyway. I now have one site that ranks for a single word keyword that has 200K searches a month - and not one exact anchor text in my entire backlink portfolio.

      Newbies and others reading the OP. Please ignore it and wait for real SEOs to figure things out.
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    • Profile picture of the author DeadRooster
      Originally Posted by Mister Rex View Post

      You guys on this forum are so quick to come up with the strangest things when Google makes a change.

      Dont use Analytics and WMT, because google spies on you? Its sad that you are serious.

      Here is a fact you might find interesting. All my sites have Analytics and WMT. Not one of my sites lost a single spot with this newest update, nor did I get dinged by any panda updates last year.

      Analytics has NOTHING to do with this and it would be laughable had this concept not lured so many other people in. You got dinged by this algo update because your links suck - plain and simple.

      Here is what I dont do. I dont build link wheels. I dont build blog comments. I dont build Wikis. I dont do forum profiles. I only do links by hand in accordance with Google's guidelines. And, as a result of playing by the rules, I am never affected... negatively, anyway. I now have one site that ranks for a single word keyword that has 200K searches a month - and not one exact anchor text in my entire backlink portfolio.

      Newbies and others reading the OP. Please ignore it and wait for real SEOs to figure things out.
      You took the words right out of my mouth. I've been running Google Analytics and Webmaster Tools on all my sites and have never been penalized during any update.

      However, for those of you that are paranoid, I have a solution -- Open Web Analytics. It's Google Analytics without the Google:

      Open Web Analytics

      Enjoy!
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    • Profile picture of the author birdman87
      Originally Posted by Mister Rex View Post

      You guys on this forum are so quick to come up with the strangest things when Google makes a change.

      Dont use Analytics and WMT, because google spies on you? Its sad that you are serious.

      Here is a fact you might find interesting. All my sites have Analytics and WMT. Not one of my sites lost a single spot with this newest update, nor did I get dinged by any panda updates last year.

      Analytics has NOTHING to do with this and it would be laughable had this concept not lured so many other people in. You got dinged by this algo update because your links suck - plain and simple.

      Here is what I dont do. I dont build link wheels. I dont build blog comments. I dont build Wikis. I dont do forum profiles. I only do links by hand in accordance with Google's guidelines. And, as a result of playing by the rules, I am never affected... negatively, anyway. I now have one site that ranks for a single word keyword that has 200K searches a month - and not one exact anchor text in my entire backlink portfolio.

      Newbies and others reading the OP. Please ignore it and wait for real SEOs to figure things out.

      Could you elaborate on your link sources please?
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  • Profile picture of the author dodadder
    I use a WordPress plugin called "New StatPress". I checked it against Google Analytics and the data is pretty precise.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    yes, Truly google is (allegedly) Evil, I stopped using Google based Analytics, for two very good reasons, one of my sites, (in GA, was deindex by Google) reason,

    (they said, they saw traffic coming from a single IP address that was not up to google standards, allegedly)

    So, I loose money, because Google decided to use data obtained from my websites, running Google analytic services, (read the TOS and be enlightened) for those of you that think this is funny or some kind of sick joke, one day you will find that when you work this thing full time and not in-between changing diapers and working a full time job that there are certain things online that you do not have the time or the skills to understand.

    The second reason was that I noticed that Google Analytic, does not count traffic from certain traffic sources, (IE, PPC, and other sources,) They consider to be less than perfect, or some other such nonsense.

    So, in the long run having Google Analytic, will hurt you, eventually they will use that data against your business, Now I ask you is that a friendly thing to do?

    Remove Google Analytic services from your account, it is not going to help you, it is only there to help Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author Palusko
    Do a search. Check the first 10 sites and see if they have Google Analytics code on them. I'd bet most of them will. Yet, they still made it to the front page.
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  • Profile picture of the author Asher
    I haven't read everyone else's post - but good point
    about using the "free" Analytics. There's always a cost
    when it's free.

    People need to realize it.

    But for those who use it, as long as they are playing
    by the rules (which is sometimes, a guessing game),
    I think that'll be fine.

    It's my opinion that the "bad methods" like buying
    multiple backlinks from forum profiles, etc - will
    simply get discounted sooner or later.

    The reason I say that is because if "bad links"
    really can take down a website, then any authority
    site can be taken down with these "negative links".

    The links are simply heavily discounted.

    Asher
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    I just checked out Open Web Analytics that DeadRooster recommended.

    Looks like it's Google Website Optimizer and Google Analytics rolled into one, and open source, i.e. not Google... plus, heatmaps and other fancy stuff.

    So no need to use Google to track your stats, regardless of whether you care about the All Devouring Google Data Monster or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jaspry
    With this analogy provided (Google = Police) wouldn't it be safe to make another analogy, "If you're not committing a crime, you've got nothing to hide"?

    What are we hiding from them, and why would we want to hide it from them? Analytics and WMT are incredible services that offer invaluable information. Why would I want to give them up because there's a conspiracy going around that they hurt you? And what information would Analytics and WMT give Google that wouldn't be obtained had they not been integrated?
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    • Hahahaha...

      Have you ever heard of something called a 'police state'? And have you heard "guilty until proven innocent"? (oops, did I get that mixed up? innocent before proven guilty?)

      Long time ago... (about 10 years ago)... it was very easy for an (individual) competitor to trash another's reputation, simply by submitting the website to 500 FFA (free for all) link sites...

      Google got wise to that, but there are just as many different techniques similar to that nowadays...

      It's not necessarily a matter of 'hiding' something because you would be doing something "wrong"... (btw, "wrong" is as google defines it)... but... to illustrate the point -- would you openly publish EXACTLY how much $$$ you were making, from which sources, your complete client list (emails, phone #s), etc -- on the front page of your website for everyone to see?

      Chances are not... not because you have something to 'hide', but because for most ppl that would be stupid -- you'd be inviting competitors to take advantage of your hard research, take your clients, and so forth...

      In the same way -- having a 3rd party web tracking script provides those same kinds of detailed statistics...

      For example...

      If you had a spike in traffic from say warriorforum, jvzoo warriorplus, paypal and so forth, let's say 10,000 visits... google could discern through algorithms that chances are you are an internet marketer...

      Because they capture that web traffic stats with the script you have on your site...

      If later -- let's say there were some "bad" internet marketers... google could "decide" that you must be "bad" too -- because you fit the profile of an "internet marketer", and decide to can your website, simply because you hang around that crowd...

      You could be 100% legit... but because you made your site so open -- and computer algorithms are not perfect -- they are designed to be 'efficient' (and so what if some of the 'good' gets canned with a lot of the bad) -- then you could be de-indexed just as easily...

      It's not paranoia... It's not saying the sky is falling... It's just how things work...


      Originally Posted by Jaspry View Post

      With this analogy provided (Google = Police) wouldn't it be safe to make another analogy, "If you're not committing a crime, you've got nothing to hide"?

      What are we hiding from them, and why would we want to hide it from them? Analytics and WMT are incredible services that offer invaluable information. Why would I want to give them up because there's a conspiracy going around that they hurt you? And what information would Analytics and WMT give Google that wouldn't be obtained had they not been integrated?
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  • Profile picture of the author Asher
    Thanks for checking it out, Paul.

    I just took a quick look, seems legit!

    Next thing though is figuring out how to use
    the darn thing... tarball?

    Asher
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
      Originally Posted by Asher View Post

      Thanks for checking it out, Paul.

      I just took a quick look, seems legit!

      Next thing though is figuring out how to use
      the darn thing... tarball?
      Yeah, I know

      I *think* tarball is just another kind of compressed file format, like ZIP or RAR.

      Mind you, I had to use bad ol' Google to tell me that!
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        that's why I figured out a long time ago not to ever install Google Analytics on any of my sites. If a client requests it, then I will install it on their sites, but not before explaining that they have do other options.
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    • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
      Originally Posted by Asher View Post

      Thanks for checking it out, Paul.

      I just took a quick look, seems legit!

      Next thing though is figuring out how to use
      the darn thing... tarball?

      Asher
      UGHHH! Unix stuff!
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  • Profile picture of the author petelta
    One of the first things my old SEO mentor told me was to remove all my sites from Google Webmaster tools and use an outside service.

    Here's why... if you're on this forum trying to learn how to get your site ranked #1, you are discovering ways to trick Google... whitehat/greyhat/blackhat doesn't matter.

    Google only wants natural links from outside sources... all of which don't include you having any involvement.

    We can't do that as marketers. We make money getting our sites ranked. We have to move them along a little quicker than just using natural links...

    So the second you post a backlink to your site, you are doing what Google doesn't want. It may not be warranting to kick you from Google and blacklist your site, but it's not what they want.

    Every change they make with their search engine will be driving results closer to what they want. Who knows when the method you used in the past might become against Google's TOS.

    By not giving them access with Google Analytics, it's tougher for them to put the pieces together.

    Travis
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    • Profile picture of the author Palusko
      I'm not sure I follow this logic. What does me spending time on this forum have to do with my websites? If you spend time on a p.o.r.n site, is Google going to label your websites as p.o.r.n sites?

      Originally Posted by petelta View Post

      One of the first things my old SEO mentor told me was to remove all my sites from Google Webmaster tools and use an outside service.

      Here's why... if you're on this forum trying to learn how to get your site ranked #1, you are discovering ways to trick Google... whitehat/greyhat/blackhat doesn't matter.

      Google only wants natural links from outside sources... all of which don't include you having any involvement.

      We can't do that as marketers. We make money getting our sites ranked. We have to move them along a little quicker than just using natural links...

      So the second you post a backlink to your site, you are doing what Google doesn't want. It may not be warranting to kick you from Google and blacklist your site, but it's not what they want.

      Every change they make with their search engine will be driving results closer to what they want. Who knows when the method you used in the past might become against Google's TOS.

      By not giving them access with Google Analytics, it's tougher for them to put the pieces together.

      Travis
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      • Profile picture of the author aygabtu
        Originally Posted by Palusko View Post

        I'm not sure I follow this logic. What does me spending time on this forum have to do with my websites? If you spend time on a p.o.r.n site, is Google going to label your websites as p.o.r.n sites?

        Darn it. Now I know why my rankings dropped!
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        • Profile picture of the author aygabtu
          I always hoped that the good stats my sites got would increase my rankings with google, so I was ok with GA. The sad thing is, some of the article writing gigs from fiverr I used would blast my site for some reason when it was pushing those articles out to various sites. Google saw all that increased traffic because I had GA installed. Without it, they wouldn't have known.

          As far as tools, I wrote my own that I get stats from anytime of the day on any of my sites. I even see historical data, and stats like visitors per hour for each day. Why do I still have GA installed. I do like to see their additional stats and somehow still feel it will benefit me somehow, someday because some of my sites has a 40 minute per day per visitor usage. Why doesn't google use that stats to rank me #1?
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  • Profile picture of the author JeanneLynn
    Wow, that was enlightening. I would never put Google Analytics on any of my websites after reading this thread!
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  • Profile picture of the author tylerfred
    I don't think using google analytics will hurt your sites. I have been using them for a long time and everything seems perky as usual.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thinking_man_too
    I yanked google analytics and webmaster first thing this morning.
    out of the many sites that got trashed yesterday here is what they had in common.
    1) Alll hand written unique quality content
    2) Strong on page seo but white hat - H1 - h3 titles with the keyword in them. etc. Keyword in the first and last sentence, etc.
    3)NO Article marketing
    4) Never any spun content
    5) Google analytics
    6) Google Webmaster

    This morning I pulled GA and Webmaster out of all my sites.

    Tonight I am going to experiment and take one trashed site and undo all the on page seo from everypage.

    I am not good at waiting and hoping. hoping is not a plan.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
      Originally Posted by Thinking_man_too View Post

      I yanked google analytics and webmaster first thing this morning.
      out of the many sites that got trashed yesterday here is what they had in common.
      1) Alll hand written unique quality content
      2) Strong on page seo but white hat - H1 - h3 titles with the keyword in them. etc. Keyword in the first and last sentence, etc.
      3)NO Article marketing
      4) Never any spun content
      5) Google analytics
      6) Google Webmaster

      This morning I pulled GA and Webmaster out of all my sites.

      Tonight I am going to experiment and take one trashed site and undo all the on page seo from everypage.

      I am not good at waiting and hoping. hoping is not a plan.
      I did the same thing about three months ago...

      Good on you,

      :rolleyes:
      ============================================

      I removed all my websites from GA, just before the new Terms of Service which most commentators here have obviously not read at all.

      (Read the TOS ladies and Gentlemen its important to your business)

      Traffic is a big deal, you need it if you want to really do something with your websites.

      Now this is going to blow your mind, I removed all my sites out of GA, now that is about 50 websites, and after about 3 weeks later I noticed something amazing.

      Traffic started increasing to my websites, on one of 7 servers that I use for my websites, I have this month so far, 17 Gigs of traffic.

      I thought Wow, if I had known that this would happen I would have done it a long time ago.

      My traffic increased, I ended up with more quality traffic how and why, who knows for sure, but one thing seems clear, what ever GA was doing with the data it was getting from my websites, it was not doing me any favors.

      I do not have anything to hide, but is that not a famous line from cop shows everywhere, and usually at the end of that conversation you end up in jail?
      I dont know but that seems like a sort of stupid thing to say in a thread.

      So, try it out, if you think GA is there to benefit your business instead of high paying Corporate Goons, then keep on providing them with data about your business at the expense of your business.

      That just means more for me.
      I have server logs from 7 different servers to back it up, tell you what, just so you know there is more than what meets the eye, going on all around you every day, something new is happening, if your watching closely you will see what it is and how you can use it to your advantage or you can run around thinking that Google is a great God, and that you should bow down before them. Sorry for the Sarcasm, its just that when I see someone come into a thread drinking the cool-aid, I wonder if they are really seeing what is going on or if they are just that shallow.


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      • Profile picture of the author Palusko
        I am trying to see what you see, but to me, the charts show, that your traffic is down from previous moths. I think a day-by-day charts would work better if you are trying to show increasing traffic in the last 3 weeks.

        Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

        Traffic started increasing to my websites, on one of 7 servers that I use for my websites, I have this month so far, 17 Gigs of traffic.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
          Originally Posted by Palusko View Post

          I am trying to see what you see, but to me, the charts show, that your traffic is down from previous moths. I think a day-by-day charts would work better if you are trying to show increasing traffic in the last 3 weeks.
          Tell you what, you show me your traffic stats, and then we can discover in more detail, what your question is really about.

          Some people just want to argue, which is why I posted the screen shots, a lot of people like to talk trash about how much traffic they get, so if your up to it, post your screen shots of the traffic your website gets, if you can great, lets talk and compare results, otherwise, I don't see the point of your post.
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          • Profile picture of the author Palusko
            That's true, some people just love to argue. In this case, it is you.
            I am not talking about your overall traffic at all. I am not comparing my stats with yours. I am not even talking about whether you are right or wrong. And I am not trying to have a pissing contest here either.
            I am talking about the pattern that you claim your charts show - which is, increased traffic since you removed GA. So my question is: Where in those charts can I see that pattern?
            That's all I am saying. Feel free to argue.

            Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post

            Tell you what, you show me your traffic stats, and then we can discover in more detail, what your question is really about.

            Some people just want to argue, which is why I posted the screen shots, a lot of people like to talk trash about how much traffic they get, so if your up to it, post your screen shots of the traffic your website gets, if you can great, lets talk and compare results, otherwise, I don't see the point of your post.
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            • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
              the thing that I don't get is this: we are all entrepreneurs in here, or at least that's what I thought. Entrepreneurs are supposed to think outside the box, that's part of their DNA, or at least that's what I think?

              So then if that's so, why are so many entrepreneurs brainwashed into thinking that they must follow Google's complicated, and sometimes anti-small business rules to make a living online?

              In my humble opinion, the less you worry about Google and their ever-changing algos, the better off you will be.



              seriously - think, my fellow warriors! Google could care less about any of us, so don't let them affect your business. Ever.
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  • Profile picture of the author tizak
    For monitoring traffic, you can install Piwik, normally available by using Softaculous or Fantastico. Piwik is a very good data mining tool.
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  • Profile picture of the author millhoy
    Thanks for the heads up. It's funny, but I never thought about this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Davis
    I understand the point of views of the OP and others.

    In my opinion, we need not fear Google Analytics, if we are not doing anything wrong.


    As for Google Webmaster Tools, I think it's more the case of Google giving you data, rather than gaining data from you.

    How can Google learn more about our website through Webmaster Tools, than what they already know?
    To me it is only a profit for the Webmaster.

    The recent success of my websites had allot to do with how closely I monitored and studied my Webmaster Tools and Google Analytics data.


    I agree that GA is replaceable.

    However, I'm a bit glad that Google can analyze my website.

    Why? Because most likely, Google can see that my visitors spend allot of time browsing and enjoying my websites!

    I have:
    - Long Visit Durations
    - High # of Returning Visitors
    - High Engagement and Activity
    - Low Bounce Rate

    = I have Great Content that my users love.



    Why would I NOT want Google to know all of this?


    To me it is an advantage point, where Google can better trust my website and rank it higher.


    Thus... Google Rewards me with #1 SERP Placement for Keywords with +50,000,000 Results

    And Page one of other Keywords with +1,000,000,000 results.


    If you know that you provide quality content to users, without using unfavorable backlinking methods, then you have nothing to worry about in my opinion.


    -----


    Just one other thing.
    I don't understand how GA is going to help Google "Discover your Backlink sources".

    Aren't they going to discover it themselves anyway via their spiders?

    Isn't the purpose of creating so many Backlinks, to let Google find them and associate them to your website?

    I just don't see how Google Analytics is going to help Google discover more about where you are getting your backlinks from.


    I think GA is really about studying how users interact with your websites.

    If you have lots of "unwanted sites" linking to you, then Google is going to find it anyway.

    If they don't find it, then you simply don't get any Backlink boost from it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Palusko
    OK, so when Google gives Analytics for free, it is suspicious. There's no such thing as free, right? Then, what's the cost of other 3rd party FREE tools? What is their motivation to offer such tools? Do you know what THEY do with your data?
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  • Profile picture of the author incognito19
    Great thread. I use GA alternatives like Clicky and Piwik, both very reliable. My question is: How about Adwords when pointing to one of your money site pages?
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  • Profile picture of the author JessicaAutumn
    After all the updates Google has made, there is definitely an update for GA too.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Google is a funny one. Free advice can become very expensive. Of course they claim that GA is not use. Everything is fine and you do not need to worry. I am so sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Viramara
    Hahahah! Thank God I found this thread before it's too late. I almost install a Google webmaster and GA script. Now, no thanks. I'm a white hat alright, but I don't want to lose my hard-earned traffic for "unknown" reason.

    I actually use lots of Wordpress free stat plugins like Count Per Day (counting only human visits per unique IP), Heat Map, and Wassup. Wassup actually has interface like GA and very detailed about your visitors information, give it a try.
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    Those who have time and search for a better time will lose time (Sufi Proverb)
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    • Profile picture of the author Mister Rex
      Originally Posted by Viramara View Post

      Hahahah! Thank God I found this thread before it's too late. I almost install a Google webmaster and GA script. Now, no thanks. I'm a white hat alright, but I don't want to lose my hard-earned traffic for "unknown" reason.

      I actually use lots of Wordpress free stat plugins like Count Per Day (counting only human visits per unique IP), Heat Map, and Wassup. Wassup actually has interface like GA and very detailed about your visitors information, give it a try.
      Dont be so fast to take this stuff as fact. You are being lied to. All this stuff about GA and WMT hurting you is bogus information.

      Google's analytics does not give any backlink information to google or you, only traffic. They dont need your bounce rates, they have enough info from people clicking to your site, then going back to google.

      Use common sense people. Google knows all about your backlinks, using WMT doesnt give them any more info than they already have. All it allows them to do is communicate to you issues with your site. You then fix those issues and move on.

      I have never seen a confirmed case of a site getting penalized due to analytics or WMT. In fact, I helped one client who got the Link warning. We deindexed the links, submitted the reinclusion request and after a week, his site was fine. After this algo update, he didnt suffer a single setback on any keywords. Had he not had WMT, google couldnt have notified him of the problem, and he would have lost rankings with this last algo update.
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      • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
        Not that I'm paranoid or anything...

        For my reasons for not using GA, see my previous rant - Add to that the fact that I've always preferred to "roll my own" rather than rely on someone else to gather/store/analyze/build/maintain my stuff, whatever stuff that may be.

        Given that, and the fact that I'm a real novice at IM and tracking website performance, etc., Can y'all tell me if the "SlimStats" WP plugin gives sufficient data for you, or should I be monitoring things more closely with one of the other services/plugins mentioned in this thread (would prefer plugins, for the reason above).

        Thanks,

        joe
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        I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by Mister Rex View Post

        Dont be so fast to take this stuff as fact. You are being lied to.
        wait a minute...I don't think anyone's lying.

        Do you mean to infer that those of us who don't agree with your opinion that Google's GA and WT are the cat's meow, are lying?

        my fellow warriors, do your own due diligence. Read any TOS before using a website's "free" tools. Look at how they use your information, before opening up an account.

        The reason I personally didn't use GA on my WordPress blogs was as a webmaster who makes a living as a consultant, I monitor the speed of the sites among other things. I always tweak my own WordPress blogs and discovered that GA made the sites load slowly quite often. I removed the snippet of code, and bingo! The sites loaded a lot quicker. That was all she wrote. I yanked the code off the sites and I haven't looked back.

        For all these years, over 6, I've used Awstats and I also look at the server's raw access logs if I suspect bandwidth theft or other shenanigans.

        To each their own. My humble opinion is that you don't have to do something just because everyone says it's so.

        We are trailblazers, are we not?
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  • Profile picture of the author greenowl123
    I don´t have google analytics installed on any of my 80+ blogs, but most have taken a beating in the SERPs over the past few days.

    I suspect that my backlinks had more to do with my sites being slapped than anything else, since I don´t even use GA anyway... (and never have).

    I use WP plug ins to get my traffic stats, and they give me all the info I need.

    Has anyone else lost position in SERPs the past week and not even use GA on their sites ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    I think it's a non argument. Google can find more than enough information about you without resorting to Google Analytics. Analytics is just a reflection of this data.
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  • Profile picture of the author scriberr
    Nah, its not that bad!
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  • Profile picture of the author komplex
    Banned
    ...

    Yeah, will never use Goolge Analytics, have been telling people this for years. It's your site data why would you give it up for free?
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  • Profile picture of the author whadu
    If GA did incorporate your site's data in the rankings, I'm sure people would find out how to manipulate that as well. Hell, it would probably be even easier.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    Well said. Although it's already known for quite some time, others that do not know should be aware of this.
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  • Profile picture of the author cagliostro
    If you use Adsense, Google already knows most of the stats anyway. So Analytics is "complentary".
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  • Profile picture of the author retsek
    Geez.. you guys are paranoid.

    You go to great pains to point lines in their privacy policy, but you fail to mention that you can turn off all data sharing in your Analytics account. Google gives you two options to set the level of sharing, or none at all.

    AND..

    Even when they use this data, they do so in aggregate and anonymously.

    By your assumptions, we can also conclude that there are benefits to running analytics (if you follow the webmaster guidelines). Good site metrics like low bounce rate, quality referers, etc ....would be seen "better" by Google and will benefit your site right?

    In reality, that's not the case. Google neither rewards nor uses the GA data against anybody.

    It would be unfair. Not only TO the 25% of webmasters who actually use THEIR PRODUCT (it is a product, there's people who pay for it), but more towards of the 75% of people who DON'T, who have never even heard of it.

    Not to even mention that hardly any of the Top 100 sites use Google Analytics.

    Stop spreading myths.

    I would even argue that not using GA or WMT puts you at a disadvantage. With WMT especially, you'd be flying blind when it comes to Google - not only when dealing with messages but how are you going to be able to analytics your keyword data in future? I don't know about you, but 30% of my traffic is now "Not Provided". Only way to get it now, is through WMT.

    When you're selling a website, nothing gives a buyer more confidence than being able to give them read-only access to your GA so they see the data themselves. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to you, but flippers should know what i'm talking about.

    All in all, if you want organic traffic and a sustainable business based on that kind of traffic you should have NOTHING to hide from Google. You should have confidence to say that your site(s) would stand up to the eyes of a manual human Google inspection. And IF your site CAN'T withstand a manual inspection, I'm here to tell you now that eventually their algo will get you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dentist
    Originally Posted by InternetSuccess001 View Post

    Thought it was interesting/enlightening reading some of the 'OMFG! google has deranked my site AGAIN!' threads...

    Oone thing that is REALLY funny (and sad in a way)... is that...

    Wwith the expression 'there is no such thing as a free lunch', seems to be quite true with google analytics...

    In *essense* -- for a *free* webtraffic report -- you are giving google unfettered access to your search queries, your user search patterns -- your landing/squeeze page, your 'backlink' partners, etc, etc...

    In otherwords -- if you are trying to game Google with link farms, autoblogs, paid links, and so forth -- and running google analytics at the same time...



    Its like inviting a police cop over to watch you as you install illegal mods on your car, from nitro, to 90% tint windows, while he is sitting there, watching you putting everything on step by step... and then you wonder, why as soon as you put the key in the ignition to get started -- you get pulled over by a cop...

    That's what running google analytics for "free" on your site is like... especially if you are using any "potentially" 'questionable' tactics to promote it...

    While google did 'buy' Urchin a long time ago (a really fantastic piece of logging software -- the best at the time) -- there are much better alternatives nowadays -- without revealing the 'secret' sauce of your website...

    Something to think about...

    Johnathan

    EDIT:

    I decided to cut & paste one of my responses, because it seems there were a few misinformed individuals here, and this should help clarify a few things...



    1. Read the license agreement here, that you most likely signed up for when you joined GA.

    google.com/analytics/tos.html

    Specifically section 6, "Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries may retain and use, subject to the terms of its Privacy Policy (located at google.com/policies/privacy/ , or such other URL as Google may provide from time to time), information collected in Your use of the Service."

    Reading the privacy policy, they go into the details of the information they collect, plus include this:

    "We use the information we collect from all of our services to provide, maintain, protect and improve them, to develop new ones, and to protect Google and our users. We also use this information to offer you tailored content - like giving you more relevant search results and ads. "

    In other words, if you are spamming them, they can figure it out.

    And... on a different note -- do you think Google would offer a service that would use bandwith, cost them money (albeit maybe not that much), --just because they are 'nice' guys and want to be your friend?



    2. That is incorrect.

    If a search engine "crawls" your site, it really only has access to the "structure" of your site, the "content", and of course information (structurally) that it cleans from other websites (i.e., backlinks).

    If you have a log analyzer (such as Google Analytics), installed on your domain, then it can see the *following* additional information:

    - how long people stay on pages on your site ("bounce rate", a good metric in determining whether your page has "useful" content, because they can compare it to hundreds of thousands of other web pages)
    - who your "real" link referrers are. (In other words, the ability to discern if a link is a "paid" link (i.e.,gets no traffic, but is high ranking), or is a "real" link (not necessarily 'high' ranking, but sends you traffic).
    - "how" people use your site. (I.e., do they just visit the main home page,or do they read 5-10 articles on it, a video, then go to your contact form?)
    - Plus MANY, many other metrics.

    This means that google, using this information, can *very* easily tell if you are a spam site, or a legit site.

    It also gives them the ability to "mass" update their algorithm, if they say see a "trend" in certain activity... (i.e.,say 1000 internet marketers all purchasing the 'same' backlink package)...



    3. Do a search (in google) for "web log analyzer". While it will take a couple minutes longer to use (and may not have the 'instant' convenience of analytics), you will be able to analyze yourown weblogs, whenever you want, plus in many cases get a lot more information then google analytics provides.

    If you don't know how to analyze (or store) your own web logs, getting a programmer from fiverr or an outsourcing site is an inexpensive, yet effective alternative.
    While I agree to your comments, there is another perspective by looking at it. While having Google Analytics or Google Webmaster Tools may get your website penalized for the reasons you mentioned, it may help get your website rank better if you have content that people actually read. I am not sure how much a factor bounce rate is in search engine evaluation of a website (one reason be that data is not available for all websites), but if there was a way for bounce rate to have some effect on rankings, quality websites could benefit from it.
    I see more negative effect from having Google tools though, because Google has been trying to act like a police for the internet more recently and what are the odds of police rewarding you for something rather than catching you for something?
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  • Profile picture of the author neil_patmore
    Good post. On April 25 2012 I deleted my aged google account and all google tools that go with it - Analytics, WMT, working Adsense, Adwords, the lot gone.

    Let's see them ****kers spy on me now.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    13 people in this thread have seen both UFOs & Bigfoot!
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    Hi
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    • Profile picture of the author retsek
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      13 people in this thread have seen both UFOs & Bigfoot!
      Haha :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      13 people in this thread have seen both UFOs & Bigfoot!
      Make that 14. And I've also seen Elvis...
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      I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...

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  • Profile picture of the author OutsourcingNinja
    The best answer I think is still to use good SEO stuff, though will take some time. So let's always think that "patience is a virtue" . One question, does Google Adsense data give access to Google to know about your stuff as well? They have crawler to show related Ads, thus getting your contents and links analyzed as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author JRampage
    Guess installing adsense to the site will be like pointing a gun to you head and pulling the trigger.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tantalizing Web
    - how long people stay on pages on your site ("bounce rate", a good metric in determining whether your page has "useful" content, because they can compare it to hundreds of thousands of other web pages)
    - who your "real" link referrers are. (In other words, the ability to discern if a link is a "paid" link (i.e.,gets no traffic, but is high ranking), or is a "real" link (not necessarily 'high' ranking, but sends you traffic).
    - "how" people use your site. (I.e., do they just visit the main home page,or do they read 5-10 articles on it, a video, then go to your contact form?)
    - Plus MANY, many other metrics.
    Google has better bounce rate information than they give us. What the give us is not accurate.

    They can get every bit of that information for anyone that goes to your site via their search engine. They don't need for us to install logging scripts to provide it if it comes from them in the first place.

    They know where our links come from in any case. They certainly don't need GA to do that.

    GA slows down your site and provides poor data and that's a good reason not to use it.
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  • Profile picture of the author anes amrani
    great post I use statecounter in my all sites I never use GA
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