Anyone Else Take Tons of Action & Still Little Return?

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Everyone talks about how taking action is the big difference that separates people who succeed and who don't. But I have taken tons and tons of action for quite a while - a while meaning years. I've had some little successes here and there. But nothing too much. A few bucks here and there.

Anyone else taking tons of action consistently and still not getting anywhere even in the neighborhood of serious returns? It's frustrating when you look back and realize even at minimum wage, the amount of hours you put in you'd have made a ton more money. Or that even charging a few bucks per article writing for other people you'd have probably made more than your own articles are bringing in for all those hours invested.
#action #return #tons
  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    Scattered focus gives scattered results?

    Not trying to be a smart ass here btw. Can you list the top 5 things (top = effort/time spent) that you've done towards making money online over those years?

    Identify problems, then solve them one at a time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      Scattered focus gives scattered results?

      Not trying to be a smart ass here btw. Can you list the top 5 things (top = effort/time spent) that you've done towards making money online over those years?

      Identify problems, then solve them one at a time.
      I understand that every time this comes up the desire is to start from scratch, go over everything you've done and so on. But I don't want to rehash that in this thread. We go over the nuts and bolts in all the other threads. Suffice it to say I've studied a lot, I've not just been randomly doing things.

      What I want to know is if there are people who really are doing things the right way and not making much. People like to act as if just doing the work pays off. But perhaps no matter what you do, it only really pays off to any significant degree for a few. Perhaps that's just the statistics of it and 95% of people are never going to make a lot at this for whatever reason even if they put in the work and do it the "right way"?

      Or do you really believe that if you aren't making much you have to be doing something wrong and it can't just be that most people just don't make much at this and it will always be a longshot to really make serious money at this?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        Or do you really believe that if you aren't making much you have to be doing something wrong
        100%. Just like with anything else in life - if you're trying hard without any payoff, you're doing it wrong. That's like the definition of common sense.


        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        I understand that every time this comes up the desire is to start from scratch, go over everything you've done and so on.
        You say "desire", I say problem solving. That's how you identify and solve problems.

        Otherwise we might as well go back to "push button profits", "magic SEO techniques" and "$10k/month with Amazon mini sites".
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          100%. Just like with anything else in life - if you're trying hard without any payoff, you're doing it wrong. That's like the definition of common sense.
          That isn't common sense because we are dealing in a world of competition. So you can be doing everything right and your competitor can beat you for a variety of reasons. Do you really believe if everyone was doing everything right they'd all be succeeding even though they're in competition? It doesn't work that way.

          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          You say "desire", I say problem solving. That's how you identify and solve problems.

          Otherwise we might as well go back to "push button profits", "magic SEO techniques" and "$10k/month with Amazon mini sites".
          You're missing my point. Breaking down all the specifics is great. But we do that in every other thread. I started this thread for the purpose of talking with others who already have gone through all the specifics multiple times, already have worked to improve, already are doing all those things and still aren't getting the results. Not for those who haven't asked the basic questions or gone over their strategy, but for those who have done that many times for years.

          I'm not surprised that almost instantly the thread reverts to the same thing - the assumptions that if you aren't making a lot of money you must be doing something wrong. Well that is an assumption, not a fact. It's very possible, even likely, that making money online is something that only a small % will succeed at even out of the group of those doing the right things.

          In any market you go into, some people succeed and some don't. And often the ones that don't didn't do anything specifically wrong. They just ran up against the fact that that's how competition works.

          I find there is a strong desire for people to believe that everyone can do well at this if they do the right things and that if they aren't doing well they must not be doing the right things. But it's also quite possible that that isn't the issue at all and that instead it's a matter of there being only limited opportunity within a highly competitive set of markets that do well online.

          I'm not saying for sure which one it is. But to just assume it's one or the other is premature.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulgl
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      Not trying to be a smart ass here btw. Can you list the top 5 things (top = effort/time spent) that you've done towards making money online over those years?
      You people keep looking under the same rocks.

      I can name the top things people concentrate on here that will indeed lead
      to squat. But the don't have the stomach for the real stuff, so they go
      for the mythical stuff that doesn't do shinola.

      Not in any particular order:

      EMD
      meta tags
      keyword density
      load time
      unique content
      linking to authority sites
      building a site around a keyword instead of a site on something they know
      blog commenting
      article submission

      ...the insanity just goes on..

      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author shayman
    This is a very good thread...and I would imagine strikes a nerve with a lot of people for a variety of reasons.

    Hand on heart, have I made a good return on the amount of effort I've put in? NO WAY! Will I? Maybe.

    What I will say is that the amount of cr*p I get in my email inbox these days has gone off the scale and most of it is from so called Guru's telling me about the next way to get rich quick...It's gone into meltdown since Penguin.

    I do think some people make a lot of money probably through singing the praises of this Guru and that Guru and sending out to lists and getting mugs to buy into the latest fad. If they're lucky the person who bought it will have bought so much of it they'll forget to ask for a refund!

    I think that anyone can make money doing this properly, but it's a long road to walk.

    You have to sell good products to people who want that product.

    (and quite timely as I speak another Guru hits my inbox!)
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
    You have to remember that IM (whatever strategy you espouse) is a business. Business is competitive, regardless of whether it's brick/mortar or online. It is certainly possible that you can be doing everything "right" and still be failing because the next guy may be doing it "more right" or "better" or "more efficiently".

    The trick is to compete in a space that you are good at and then be one of the best at it. If you can do that, you can succeed.

    I, personally, am very successful both as an Amazon affiliate and as an info product creator. With over 15 years of IM experience, I am able to very well for myself and I am also able to impart my knowledge to others.

    I'm successful as an Amazon affiliate because I do my own thing and stay away from what the crowds are doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    Just a few things and I'll leave you be.

    Note that none of this is aimed directly at you or anyone else on this forum.

    1. I believe that "doing everything right" includes being able to compete with others. If a competitor simply runs you over, you're doing it wrong. But maybe that's just me.

    2. ^^ the same applies everywhere else in life: corporate careers, university, etc.

    3. "Online business" in general is a super-growth industry right now. The opportunities are mind boggling. "Limited opportunity" is an easy excuse. Just like with everything else in life, some people love to blame "invisible forces" for their shortcomings.

    4. This is an important point. Some people are born slightly, well... not as smart as the rest, perhaps? YES, there are losers everywhere in life - look around you. Such people are ARE doing it wrong - they should have chosen a much simpler career path.

    In this sense, YES running a business is beyond the scope of most people, and this forum is no exception. Just like getting a degree in maths or passing ACCA exams - some people just don't have the...

    No such thing as limited opportunity - some people are simply "dreamers" who fail to properly evaluate their capabilities.

    Most of those who complain about trying and failing online don't even have a business plan. Blaming something/someone else for your own failures/shortcomings is a quick path to self destruction.
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  • Profile picture of the author Suir1980
    traffic is the key to everything

    you can have the best site with the most unique content but wituout traffic your site is nothing. im using content which regularly fails copyscape but im still doing well. why? bec i spend more time getting traffic to my site than making it all unique and pretty.
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    • Profile picture of the author shayman
      Originally Posted by Suir1980 View Post

      traffic is the key to everything

      you can have the best site with the most unique content but wituout traffic your site is nothing. im using content which regularly fails copyscape but im still doing well. why? bec i spend more time getting traffic to my site than making it all unique and pretty.
      I don't just think you are right, I know you are!
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  • Profile picture of the author BBery
    just like me, have a lot of action intended for me but the web is less than expected
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    • Profile picture of the author Suir1980
      I mean, I read about all these ppl spending hours writing unique articles whereas here I am auto-pulling stuff from websites (like product details, description, reviews, pics, etc.) using WPRobot and out of the 22 sites that I have, 13 are #1 in Google whereas the rest are ranked higher than my main competition---Amazon. As long as I am ranking higher than Amazon for a chosen keyword/niche, then I consider that a success. My 0-year old .info domain is outranking 10+year-old EMDs.

      How am I doing this? I'm using tools like ScrapeBox and SENukeX to submit to different platforms like article directories, Web 2.0s, forums, etc. and then I use other tools for Twitter/Facebook/Pinterest/YouTube and yet even more tools to post to Wikis/EDUs/GOVs.

      If I do happen to find a site that none of my tools can't post to (like a site from Angela's/Paul's Backlinks), I have Ubot to take care of that.

      Just to give you guys an idea how deep I go into this, here's a screenshot of my linkbuilding campaign - (see attachment instead as I can't post links)

      I spend 70-75% of my time learning about how to use these tools PROPERLY (that is the second biggest key---learning to use these tools CORRECTLY!!!) and link building than I do making my site look pretty and writing unique articles. Of course, my site still looks good and professional thanks to YooTheme and my content isn't unreadable and is actually broken down into different sections for different types of readers (like some ppl want to read everything about a product whereas others just want to look at a bullet point list or pros and cons) but my point is, I don't spend most of time doing these. I focus on the one that truly matters---traffic.
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  • Profile picture of the author nest28
    I understand where Builder154, and I don't think his concerns have been addressed properly. I know what it's like to look at your computer screen and want to break it ,out of sheer frustration, maybe you made a great site but some crappy site out ranks yours, or you paid some seo guy to help your site and nothing at all happen, or even worse you got penalized, these are the things the everyday marketer will go through.

    Bnetwork,Paulgl,Wolfmmiii, you guys are the exception, you probably went through all that yrs ago and came out of it with a wealth of knowledge on how to make a living online, but please remember their are those out there who are still at the beginning stage of the online career.

    Yes you can do everything right and see little to no results, and the worst part is it takes weeks ,months yrs to test and see what works and what doesn't .

    I have to admit that I never took IM all that seriously, until I started to make some real money online, that's when I decided to do everything I could to have a sustainable income using Im. Which meant doing some testing, making more sites, investing more money etc, and in the end it all got wiped away with unnatural links notice, which was my fault, not google.

    So just make sure you do things the right way from the start, give it time, do a lot of testing, make friends on wf and ask them questions, chances are they been where your at now.

    Exchange numbers with a few wf members, I had a 3hr long convo with a fellow marketer and it was fun, to actually talk to someone who knew what a h1 tag is or a backlink, whenever I try talking to friends and family they treat me like I'm a jehovah witness or something and want to leave the room asap lol, no offense to anyone religion btw.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    I answer dozens of questions daily. Some of those questions are 1000+ words long, lol. I'm sure that many others here do the same.

    Of course it can be frustrating, disheartening and confusing at times. Some of us have been there before, but people just don't/won't listen.

    What I'm getting at is this: do some work, test a few things then ask for help. If you ask for specific advice, there's almost a 100% chance that someone is going to give you a very detailed answer.

    Questions like "I've done everything right. There's just not enough opportunity in this, agree?" tick me off.
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    • Profile picture of the author nest28
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      I answer dozens of questions daily. Some of those questions are 1000+ words long, lol. I'm sure that many others here do the same.

      Of course it can be frustrating, disheartening and confusing at time. Some of us have been there before, but people don't listen.

      What I'm getting at is this: do some work, test a few things then ask for help. If you ask for specific advice, there's almost a 100% chance that someone is going to give you a very detailed answer.

      Questions like "I've done everything right. There's just not enough opportunity in this, agree?" tick me off.
      I agree with everything you just said, and I'll come on the wf in a heartbeat to ask for help, without hesitation , and warriors like you and yukon,paulgl plus many others always give great advice, that I am always grateful for.
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    The Google landscape has changed rapidly. Opportunities still exist, but they're not as numerous as they were in the past.

    People are approaching the 'make money online' problem from the wrong perspective. If you want to make money you have to solve people's problems. How many new people who enter the world of IM can honestly say they're approaching things by attempting to solve people's problems. Not many would be my guess.

    Following templates that used to work for others is another surefire way to fail. You're better off trying your own thing and experimenting. You will find ABSOLUTELY ZERO actionable information on forums like this one. Come here to shoot the sh** but forget the idea you'll actually ever learn anything. There are lots of charlatans and wannabes here, and many of them view themselves as your competition. Take what they say with a grain of salt.
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    • Profile picture of the author nest28
      Originally Posted by mosthost View Post

      The Google landscape has changed rapidly. Opportunities still exist, but they're not as numerous as they were in the past.

      People are approaching the 'make money online' problem from the wrong perspective. If you want to make money you have to solve people's problems. How many new people who enter the world of IM can honestly say they're approaching things by attempting to solve people's problems. Not many would be my guess.

      Following templates that used to work for others is another surefire way to fail. You're better off trying your own thing and experimenting. You will find ABSOLUTELY ZERO actionable information on forums like this one. Come here to shoot the sh** but forget the idea you'll actually ever learn anything. There are lots of charlatans and wannabes here, and many of them view themselves as your competition. Take what they say with a grain of salt.
      You got that right, at one point I found myself on here more than working on my site, I was like wth am I doing lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author mosthost
        Originally Posted by nest28 View Post

        You got that right, at one point I found myself on here more than working on my site, I was like wth am I doing lol.
        LOL, it happens. Since so many IMs work alone, forums are a good way to sort of see what's 'going on' in the rest of the world.

        Like when Penguin hit, people could check the forum and see 'yeah, everyone else got penalized too.'
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by mosthost View Post

      You will find ABSOLUTELY ZERO actionable information on forums like this one. Come here to shoot the sh** but forget the idea you'll actually ever learn anything. There are lots of charlatans and wannabes here, and many of them view themselves as your competition. Take what they say with a grain of salt.
      Mostly agree, but not quite 100%. :p

      I have made good money using advice/ideas I picked up on IM forums. Not by implementing them 1-1, but by properly integrating them into my existing businesses.
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      • Profile picture of the author natethegreat7037
        I can (sorta?) relate. I personally believe adsense and autoblogs aren't dead. So I've been working diligently to formulate a plan to make money from this. One humbling aspect is that I will have to wait (don't we all hate that word? ) to see if it pays off.

        However, I noticed that I did receive a click from my infolinks ad on monday! It paid next to nothing, but that tells me my blog is getting actual real visitors to my site! So that's a small, but big win in my book. I will stay the course until I can make this work.

        Who knows? This could become a WSO some day
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    • Profile picture of the author dkovacec
      Originally Posted by mosthost View Post

      People are approaching the 'make money online' problem from the wrong perspective. If you want to make money you have to solve people's problems. How many new people who enter the world of IM can honestly say they're approaching things by attempting to solve people's problems. Not many would be my guess.
      Been there, done that.
      Now i can see the best plan is :

      1. Create VALUE
      2. Deliver VALUE
      3. Get payed

      Steve Pavlina has some great articles about that on his blog.
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      • Profile picture of the author Builder154
        Originally Posted by dkovacec View Post

        Been there, done that.
        Now i can see the best plan is :

        1. Create VALUE
        2. Deliver VALUE
        3. Get payed

        Steve Pavlina has some great articles about that on his blog.
        You left out a huge step. Beat your competition. And that step is extremely hard to make sense of sometimes. The best value doesn't always win. We certainly know that. Why customers choose one over another is mysterious. That's why we're left doing split tests and things just trying to find out why one thing works and not another, often without any obvious reason at all.
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        • Profile picture of the author dkovacec
          Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

          You left out a huge step. Beat your competition. And that step is extremely hard to make sense of sometimes. The best value doesn't always win. We certainly know that. Why customers choose one over another is mysterious. That's why we're left doing split tests and things just trying to find out why one thing works and not another, often without any obvious reason at all.
          The best value wins, but the definition of value is something worth thinking about.
          Customers choose product B over product A because of the greater value for them. They themselves may not be always aware of the real reason, but I found it true.

          Car sellers know that very well. Many people buy cars because of deep emotional reason they are not even aware of. Just look at the commercials. The best commercials make you want to buy a product unconciously and your mind makes logical excuses for that(it has better mileage, is safer,...). The car you buy may not have a better value, but it has a better value for YOU.
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  • Profile picture of the author enterscope
    Quality Service at Affordable Prices = No Competition

    Just like it's not hard to find a job if you have the skills and are a hard worker. Put yourself in the shoes of a consumer and ask yourself... "Would I buy this product or service?"

    Do not do what everyone else is doing because most everyone else is failing. You have to be innovative and solve problems for people.
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  • Profile picture of the author rockong
    Concentrate on a main project and become an expert. Don't spread yourself out too thin. If you do, you'll just be mediocre in many things and you'll never make a lot of money.

    Also, ensure that your actions are actually actions that make money. Just because you're taking action, doesn't necessarily mean you're taking the right actions. Some actions...ppl are just "doing busy work".

    Re-evaluate your goals and set tangible measurements. It'll click in due time - keep at it!
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  • Profile picture of the author Builder154
    Thanks for all the responses. I hope the conversation continues.

    I want to explain again that I'm not talking about people who are beginners and just starting. I'm talking about people who already have tweaked and tested and sought advice and implemented advice again and again and again and still just can't seem to get past the chump change phase of this.

    It's not a problem of attitude because I'm talking about people who have put in the work for a long time consistently. You don't do that if your attitude isn't there. It's just that at some point, if things objectively aren't paying off, you wouldn't be smart not to stop and wonder if something bigger is going on.

    It's not a problem of "doing the wrong things" because they have put in the time to learn, as much as is possible, how to do this right.

    You know there are Hall of Fame players in every sport that never won a championship. Some of them are among the best to ever play. Getting over that hump has a lot of factors to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do things right.

    It's frustrating when people assume that those who are making a lot did something special and correct while those who aren't must have just not done it right.

    But I'm still open to the fact that there is some idea I'm just not implementing properly. I just don't really know what it would be at this point.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

      But I'm still open to the fact that there is some idea I'm just not implementing properly. I just don't really know what it would be at this point.
      This would mean that you've done everything, and couldn't make it work. Which I do not believe. Not even close.

      Here's the cold hard truth:

      1. I've built more websites than you have. Maybe 50x more?
      2. I lost way more money "learning/testing" than you have.
      3. I work my ass off, and I bet you that I work a lot more than you. Every single day. I take 2 days off in a month.
      4. I have bought 2 ebooks in my whole life. That's it. What does that say about me?

      You're probably doing it wrong. Sorry, broham.

      There's no "some idea"... the only thing that differentiates winners from "not-winners" is hard work, better planning and persistence. That's it. I create my own luck.

      Have you been working towards one goal the whole time? Do you have a plan? A way to make money, ways to reach an audience/get visitors? Like a proper plan, not just in your head? Are you building a business or just throwing **** at a wall hoping that some of it sticks?

      Try starting a business offline and tell me if it's any different...

      edit: reading my post now it may appear that I'm attacking you, but trust me - I'm not.
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      • Profile picture of the author Builder154
        Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

        This would mean that you've done everything, and couldn't make it work. Which I do not believe. Not even close.

        Here's the cold hard truth:

        1. I've built more websites than you have. Maybe 50x more?
        2. I lost way more money "learning/testing" than you have.
        3. I work my ass off, and I bet you that I work a lot more than you. Every single day. I take 2 days off in a month.
        4. I have bought 2 ebooks in my whole life. That's it. What does that say about me?

        You're probably doing it wrong. Sorry, broham.

        There's no "some idea"... the only thing that differentiates winners from "not-winners" is hard work, better planning and persistence. That's it. I create my own luck.

        Have you been working towards one goal the whole time? Do you have a plan? A way to make money, ways to reach an audience/get visitors? Like a proper plan, not just in your head? Are you building a business or just throwing **** at a wall hoping that some of it sticks?

        Try starting a business offline and tell me if it's any different...

        edit: reading my post now it may appear that I'm attacking you, but trust me - I'm not.
        I'm glad you posted this because it is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. It's really almost like a religious or faith attitude. "I did it and it worked so I must be doing it right and anyone who isn't having my success is doing it wrong." Of course if you used an attitude like that in science you'd be laughed out of the room.

        Did you study whether there are 50 other people also doing the things you're doing and not succeeding? Did you rule out that your success has to do with other factors in addition to the list of things there? No you didn't. It's all assumptions. It's kind of like an attitude that pumps up the person who has it but it isn't really valid because it's based on assumption.

        Is your belief honestly that anyone who did things the way you did would succeed and make a significant amount of money (let's say enough to do this full time?) Is your belief that if you took 100 people and had them all do things just the way you're doing them, at least 90 of them would have that kind of success? If so, then I suggest you get those 100 people and do that experiment. Because if you succeed in putting together a system that works 90% of the time, you will be richer than rich.

        If you did that experiment and say only half or maybe 40% had significant success then it would show that a huge part of your success is not just the process you're using, but some other factors (and I'm not talking about intelligence or anything like that since you'd be having them do the exact same process with you checking that they did it right). You might even find out that if 100 people do this process only 40% succeed because there is a lot of luck involved.

        My point is you are making a lot of statements without any evidence to back it up. Your story alone does not constitute evidence. Your sample size of one is too small.
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        • Profile picture of the author tylerherman
          I agree with you that some people will never make it doing IM. Not everyone can be a NASA scientist or an artist or a baseball player no matter how badly they want it. And by making it I mean, making a living. There are some skills and tools you need to have in all of those jobs that not everyone possesses and the same goes for IM.

          In IM there are a few of them.

          The first being creativity.

          If you have to copy other people's moneymaking ideas you find in WSOs or these forums or other places you probably won't be successful. Maybe for a brief time in the short run but never in the long run. You might start building niche sites using someone else's strategy but to really make it, you must develop your own. You find a strategy that works. You find a new way to display your ads or tie your sites together. You find a new way to reduce your bounce rate or increase conversions.

          If you cannot come up with this stuff on your own. If you come to these forums every time you have a question or something isn't working, you are failing to learn and will fail at IM. You have to be able to see how that first dollar comes in and find a new way to turn that dollar into $5 and than $100 and then $10,000. Some people can brute force one method but the successful ones adapt and grow and expand how they do it.

          Another being unwavering faith.

          You have to know what you are doing is going to work, it is just a matter of time. If you doubt yourself, your ability or your methods, you are dead meat. Every mistake you make and dead end you find is one less roadblock keeping you from finally making it. If you don't look at it that way, you are not going to make at all.
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          • Profile picture of the author Builder154
            Originally Posted by tylerherman View Post

            I agree with you that some people will never make it doing IM. Not everyone can be a NASA scientist or an artist or a baseball player no matter how badly they want it. And by making it I mean, making a living. There are some sKills and tools you need to have in all of those jobs that not everyone possesses and the same goes for IM.

            In IM there are a few of them.

            The first being creativity.

            If you have to copy other people's moneymaking ideas you find in WSOs or these forums or other places you probably won't be successful. Maybe for a brief time in the short run but never in the long run. You might start building niche sites using someone else's strategy but to really make it, you must develop your own. You find a strategy that works. You find a new way to display your ads or tie your sites together. You find a new way to reduce your bounce rate or increase conversions.

            If you cannot come up with this stuff on your own. If you come to these forums every time you have a question or something isn't working, you are failing to learn and will fail at IM.

            Another being unwavering faith.

            You have to know what you are doing is going to work, it is just a matter of time. If you doubt yourself, your ability or your methods, you are dead meat. Every mistake you make and dead end you find is one less roadblock keeping you from finally making it. If you don't look at it that way, you are not going to make at all.
            Like I said in my last reply to bnet, I'm not talking about people who just don't have the intelligence to do this. I'm talking about people who are quite intelligent, who know the tricks and tools, who do know how to test for themselves, who do put in the work - who do all of that and STILL don't succeed. Do you doubt this happens? Even happens often?

            As for "faith" I think that's really another assumption. The people who have faith and succeed say "see having faith made it work." The people who have faith and don't succeed just say "Oh if I have faith a little longer." I don't think it has to do with faith.
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          • Profile picture of the author tylerherman
            Intellect has nothing to do with it.

            Being smart has nothing to do with being successful at IM.

            You say maybe only 1 out of 50 people who try a method can be successful at it. That may be true. But the point being, each new person who is successful figured out a way to do something differently.

            Brute force might work for some people but just doing what everyone else is doing is setting yourself up for failure.

            Be able to adapt upon the strategy of others and make them better is a necessary IM still.
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            • Profile picture of the author Builder154
              Originally Posted by tylerherman View Post

              Intellect has nothing to do with it.

              Being smart has nothing to do with being successful at IM.

              You say maybe only 1 out of 50 people who try a method can be successful at it. That may be true. But the point being, each new person who is successful figured out a way to something differently.

              Brute force might work for some people but just doing what everyone else is doing is setting yourself up for failure.

              Be able to adapt upon the strategy of other and make them better is a necessary IM still.
              There are thousands of people who win the lottery too. But we don't say they came up with some brilliant method. We just realize that's how odds work. A certain number of people succeed but most don't.

              With IM obviously it isn't totally luck. But the question is how much of it is luck? I don't think we really know. But the people who succeed seem to pat themselves on the back, sure that they succeeded due to their genius rather than luck. And then when other people work just as hard and don't get the results, they think it's because they're doing something wrong. I think these are all assumptions.

              Howcome when someone works really hard and succeeds we pay lots of attention. But if someone is working really hard and doesn't succeed we don't say "OK well so far it appears that this works 50% of the time". Instead we say "the successful person did it right and the other person needs to fix what they're doing." That's just not a valid way to interpret things without a lot more information.
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              • Profile picture of the author tylerherman
                Yah there is some luck obviously. People hit on goldmine products or keywords all the time.

                Another thing is yah the internet is a big place but millions of IMers all doing the exact same thing and the competition and the easy money dry up. There is a cap to how many people can be successful. So yes, there can be people who do everything write and not succeed. This market is saturated and some areas are probably really hard to make any money.

                By more than likely if you really are doing everything right and working harder than most people you'll push someone less deserving or skilled or motivated out of the way.

                I think you need to go see Tony Robins :p
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                • Profile picture of the author tylerherman
                  Yukon your sig works pretty well for this particular topic.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Builder154
                    Originally Posted by tylerherman View Post

                    Yukon your sig works pretty well for this particular topic.
                    That quote makes the same mistake I'm pointing out. For every Samuel Goldwyn, there are a million sweat shop workers who are working harder than he probably ever did and not getting any luck at all. This has to be some kind of bias that there is a name for where you look at the few really successful people and think that whatever they are doing must be a rule that others could follow when in reality it may be that only a small % are ever going to succeed even if they work twice as hard because there are only so many spots and certain people get a few breaks or whatever.
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  • Profile picture of the author tech84
    Like what they say, you can always build a good quality website about a certain niche, but the question is, do the web need another website about that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by tech84 View Post

      Like what they say, you can always build a good quality website about a certain niche, but the question is, do the web need another website about that?
      Which is why you should do research before building anything. Again, that's just common sense.

      Also, "another website" is a bad way to look a things. You can always build a better website, all that matters is that there's enough demand. Same concept applies to any offline business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brendan Mace
    It's a cliche that's said a million times... but the REAL difference between "winners" and "losers" is persistance. There is no set formula to building a successful business online. And for that reason, it's impossible to have any kind of experiment.

    Making money online is an art, it's not a science. What bnetwork is saying does make sense. He's willing to put in the grunt work to continue to TEST after **** hits the fan. Most people try and regurgitate a system that they learned from someone else, and then pray that it works. Inevitably a pothole will emerge at some point in the process, and "losers" will claim that the system is faulty. "Making money online is too hard and a complete waste of time." "Winners" will dig a little deeper, and keep at it till they kind a solution.

    The difference between "winners" and "losers" is the willingness to run over the inevitable potholes along the way, and keep driving till you reach the desired destination.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by Brendan Mace View Post

      It's a cliche that's said a million times... but the REAL difference between "winners" and "losers" is persistance. There is no set formula to building a successful business online. And for that reason, it's impossible to have any kind of experiment.

      Making money online is an art, it's not a science. What bnetwork is saying does make sense. He's willing to put in the grunt work to continue to TEST after **** hits the fan. Most people try and regurgitate a system that they learned from someone else, and then pray that it works. Inevitably a pothole will emerge at some point in the process, and "losers" will claim that the system is faulty. "Making money online is too hard and a complete waste of time." "Winners" will dig a little deeper, and keep at it till they kind a solution.

      The difference between "winners" and "losers" is the willingness to run over the inevitable potholes along the way, and keep driving till you reach the desired destination.
      I don't know why it's so hard to understand what I'm saying in this thread. Persistence is NOT the difference here. I am someone who has persisted for a long time. And I plan to still do so. But despite that the success is not coming. I am wondering if there are others who have also persisted and not succeeded.

      You say persistence is the difference, but what do you base that on? It's just an assumption. I bet there are tons of us who are persisting and working as hard as the people succeeding, even using many of the same techniques, yet still not having the success. I believe there are other factors involved.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Bottom line is, If a person isn't seeing any results, they are not doing everything right.

    You can't honestly claim your doing everything right, If your not meeting your own expectations.

    I'm not picking on anyone, I'm not saying anyone is better at anything, it is what it is, you keep going until you get the results you want.

    I can't remember a day in the last 6 years that I wasn't running IM test, I still make money from older projects/sites (everyday), but I never stop testing new things related to my business.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Bottom line is, If a person isn't seeing any results, they are not doing everything right.

      You can't honestly claim your doing everything right, If your not meeting your own expectations.

      I'm not picking on anyone, I'm not saying anyone is better at anything, it is what it is, you keep going until you get the results you want.

      I can't remember a day in the last 6 years that I wasn't running IM test, I still make money from older projects/sites (everyday), but I never stop testing new things related to my business.
      This is just a kind of tricky argument based on the word "right." Ok I'll take that away from you by using a more precise word.

      Just because a person is not achieving a significant amount of income does not mean they are not doing the very best work that can be done. The same work done by two different people does not necessarily lead to the same results. And that doesn't mean the one who gets the results did anything special compared to the other one to be the one that got them. There may be outside factors that determine that. To say anything else is pure speculation and assumption. But of course the people who are doing well always want to make that assumption because it makes them look better.

      Nobody is doubting that you do a lot of hard work. All I'm saying is that the fact that you succeed and someone else doesn't may have nothing to do with you doing any harder work or any better work. You may even be using the very same techniques and tests (no I don't mean copying things, I mean testing things in the same way, each to find what works using a valid method).

      My whole point in this thread is to question how much of success in this field is really down to what anyone does and how much really is truly luck. I think it's more luck than a lot of people are willing to admit.

      This is a field where, from what I can gather, a very very small % of people ever make any significant amount regularly. The gurus like to claim this is because they just don't put in the work. I think that is true of some. But there are lots of people putting in a heck of a lot of work, doing nothing really different than the gurus. It's just that there are two facts:

      1) Some small % is going to succeed just statistically
      2) Once you start to succeed it can become a cycle as you have more money to invest in the next project, more followers, more sites to build links from and on and on.

      So it all leads to this illusion that the gurus are doing this great work and everyone else isn't doing what they're doing.

      I could be wrong, but my point is I could be right and nobody has shown very solidly which one it is. And I get very tired of hearing people sidestep anyone questioning things by just labeling them a negative person and claiming if they only had more faith they would be doing well. Well how do they know? Perhaps what they're really doing is just trying to ignore the evidence that these things only work a % of the time by blowing off the people who do the same things and don't succeed.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        This is just a kind of tricky argument based on the word "right." Ok I'll take that away from you by using a more precise word.

        Just because a person is not achieving a significant amount of income does not mean they are not doing the very best work that can be done. The same work done by two different people does not necessarily lead to the same results. And that doesn't mean the one who gets the results did anything special compared to the other one to be the one that got them. There may be outside factors that determine that. To say anything else is pure speculation and assumption. But of course the people who are doing well always want to make that assumption because it makes them look better.

        Nobody is doubting that you do a lot of hard work. All I'm saying is that the fact that you succeed and someone else doesn't may have nothing to do with you doing any harder work or any better work. You may even be using the very same techniques and tests (no I don't mean copying things, I mean testing things in the same way, each to find what works using a valid method).

        My whole point in this thread is to question how much of success in this field is really down to what anyone does and how much really is truly luck. I think it's more luck than a lot of people are willing to admit.

        This is a field where, from what I can gather, a very very small % of people ever make any significant amount regularly. The gurus like to claim this is because they just don't put in the work. I think that is true of some. But there are lots of people putting in a heck of a lot of work, doing nothing really different than the gurus. It's just that there are two facts:

        1) Some small % is going to succeed just statistically
        2) Once you start to succeed it can become a cycle as you have more money to invest in the next project, more followers, more sites to build links from and on and on.

        So it all leads to this illusion that the gurus are doing this great work and everyone else isn't doing what they're doing.

        I could be wrong, but my point is I could be right and nobody has shown very solidly which one it is. And I get very tired of hearing people sidestep anyone questioning things by just labeling them a negative person and claiming if they only had more faith they would be doing well. Well how do they know? Perhaps what they're really doing is just trying to ignore the evidence that these things only work a % of the time by blowing off the people who do the same things and don't succeed.




        Two people can't do the [exact] same things & get different results.

        If they both did the exact same thing, that would make the end results the exact same.

        Here's an example, If I target the keyword car & you target the keyword cars, the difference in traffic would be huge:
        • car 201,000 (singular)
        • cars 823,000 (plural)

        Lets assume we both did everything else exactly the same, same content, same site, same everything except the difference between the keyword being singular or plural.

        My point is, small details sometimes make all the difference in the world when comparing what one person does & what another person does.

        In the example above, there's no magic, no luck, just different keyword research.

        BTW, I don't think you or this thread is negative & I'm not trying to sidestep anything. I do think that comparing oneself with other people isn't practical, when people have no idea whatsoever what anyone else is doing (small details).
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        • Profile picture of the author Complex
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Complex View Post

            Lol, I take it you never took a science class.
            Lol, Google exact - Not approximated in any way; precise.

            Don't believe everything an elementary teacher says.
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            • Profile picture of the author Complex
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Complex View Post

                First off, are you trying to imply that my education level is of the elementary school level?

                If so, you might want to learn the difference between a hard science and a soft science before you make that insinuation. Otherwise, you only look smart in a room full of idiots and like an idiot in a room full of smart people.

                Two things are being talked about in this thread: SEO and human behavior

                Both are soft sciences. You are treating them as if they are hard sciences.

                Your statement that two people can't do the same exact thing and get a different result is false. Hence, my original comment.

                Thank you, though. It's been a while since I have really been in this forum and I see that nothing has changed.
                This thread is getting nowhere.

                Exact is exact, no matter how it's twisted.

                For the umpteenth time, people comparing themselves to other people is just silly. I buy stocks yet I'm not a billionaire like Warren Buffett, meh... he must be lucky (lol).
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                • Profile picture of the author Builder154
                  Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                  This thread is getting nowhere.

                  Exact is exact, no matter how it's twisted.

                  For the umpteenth time, people comparing themselves to other people is just silly. I buy stocks yet I'm not a billionaire like Warren Buffett, meh... he must be lucky (lol).
                  He didn't say exact isn't exact. He said exact comparisons DO happen in hard sciences and you are ignoring that fact by treating all sciences as soft ones. So you completely misunderstood his point.

                  People comparing themselves to a sample size of one like Warren Buffett is silly, yes. That's why we require a large sample size to get any meaningful results. But compare hundreds of people and patterns start to emerge and it isn't so meaningless anymore. But like the other person said this is science and you don't seem to understand or at least be a fan of science. You seem to be a fan of "positive thinking" new age stuff.
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                • Profile picture of the author Cheryl Low
                  I am going to add my 2 cents here and I'm going to speak from observation. Internet marketing isn't about following a set of rules and if you just follow them exactly you'll make lots of money. Other factors do come into play and I believe luck, skills, experience and attitude play a huge part. 2 different people spending the same amount of time following the same steps will still get different results.

                  Luck - just by being at the right place, right time, right product
                  Skills - makes a difference in the quality of the finished product
                  Experience - knowing what to avoid, how to do something better, how to tweak to make it work better
                  Attitude - and maybe that makes the biggest difference. Seeking help, persistence, willingness to try something different when something clearly doesn't work

                  There's something else - for lack of better word, I'll call it mojo. Your personality comes through as a seller and potential buyers are either attracted to it or they aren't. Who'll be more likely to succeed? I personally know 2 internet millionaires. They look perfectly ordinary but when you have spent some time with them, you understand how they have succeeded while others have not. And it's not through working their a$$ off.

                  Just my 2 cents.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Builder154
                    Originally Posted by Cheryl Low View Post

                    I am going to add my 2 cents here and I'm going to speak from observation. Internet marketing isn't about following a set of rules and if you just follow them exactly you'll make lots of money. Other factors do come into play and I believe luck, skills, experience and attitude play a huge part. 2 different people spending the same amount of time following the same steps will still get different results.

                    Luck - just by being at the right place, right time, right product
                    Skills - makes a difference in the quality of the finished product
                    Experience - knowing what to avoid, how to do something better, how to tweak to make it work better
                    Attitude - and maybe that makes the biggest difference. Seeking help, persistence, willingness to try something different when something clearly doesn't work

                    There's something else - for lack of better word, I'll call it mojo. Your personality comes through as a seller and potential buyers are either attracted to it or they aren't. Who'll be more likely to succeed? I personally know 2 internet millionaires. They look perfectly ordinary but when you have spent some time with them, you understand how they have succeeded while others have not. And it's not through working their a$$ off.

                    Just my 2 cents.
                    Fantastic point. Many of the gurus have a certain cycle going. They have a vivacious personality so people like THEM. It isn't just what they do online, but who they are. They attract people with charisma and that builds their business as much as their business makes them a guru. I think you've hit on one important factor in at least some cases.
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          Two people can't do the [exact] same things & get different results.

          If they both did the exact same thing, that would make the end results the exact same.

          Here's an example, If I target the keyword car & you target the keyword cars, the difference in traffic would be huge:
          • car 201,000 (singular)
          • cars 823,000 (plural)

          Lets assume we both did everything else exactly the same, same content, same site, same everything except the difference between the keyword being singular or plural.

          My point is, small details sometimes make all the difference in the world when comparing what one person does & what another person does.

          In the example above, there's no magic, no luck, just different keyword research.

          BTW, I don't think you or this thread is negative & I'm not trying to sidestep anything. I do think that comparing oneself with other people isn't practical, when people have no idea whatsoever what anyone else is doing (small details).
          You aren't sidestepping, but you're doing a lot of straw man arguments. When I said two people doing the same thing, I specifically said not copying, but doing the same basic processes and tests. Of course two people can't do exactly specifically the same things. What they can do is be using the same processes, similar criteria for choosing keywords even if not the same keywords and so on. It's a rough estimation. As you said tiny differences can make all the difference. But some of these tiny differences are not predictable. Which means, for all the work people put in, at some point it comes down to a little bit of luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeoKungFu
    Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

    Anyone else taking tons of action consistently and still not getting anywhere even in the neighborhood of serious returns?
    Work smarter, not harder...No need of tons of action, the need is of the right action at the right time. Split nanoseconds, focus sharply, wait patiently and press any key to continue !
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  • Profile picture of the author Chrisbroholm
    No offense Builder, but you seem to spend a huge amount of time debating on the forums, often versus very experienced people - like in the Adsense thread you seemed to just want to debate and counter everyone.

    I'm all for debating club, but if you spent some of the time you spent on writing all these detailed "devil's advocate" posts on your own sites you would probably see greater results.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by Chrisbroholm View Post

      No offense Builder, but you seem to spend a huge amount of time debating on the forums, often versus very experienced people - like in the Adsense thread you seemed to just want to debate and counter everyone.

      I'm all for debating club, but if you spent some of the time you spent on writing all these detailed "devil's advocate" posts on your own sites you would probably see greater results.
      This right here sums it up quite well.

      I asked him to give me some specifics - he didn't. Because he hasn't done anything significant towards "making money online". Meh.

      What are you saying exactly? Do I believe that after building a few hundred niche websites (just the setup) for clients, then about 100 for other projects, setting up a private blog network that's still going strong, selling about 3000 SEO packages (on the other WF) and flipping 15+ Adsense websites plus creating an authority website in a huge medical niche... you would have found a way to make money online? Simple - yes.

      But, you haven't done any of those things, have you?

      Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

      There are thousands of people who win the lottery too. But we don't say they came up with some brilliant method. We just realize that's how odds work. A certain number of people succeed but most don't.
      And this is borderline... I'm 100% convinced that you're just trolling.
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      • Profile picture of the author Builder154
        Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

        This right here sums it up quite well.

        I asked him to give me some specifics - he didn't. Because he hasn't done anything significant towards "making money online". Meh.
        I'm the one trolling? Could you purposely misquote me any more?

        I said I didn't want to go over the specifics in THIS thread because I've already done that in other threads. I started this thread not to debate the specifics but for those who have already done that time and again and found it isn't working. It's funny how a couple people on here are so faith-based they simply can't fathom that anyone could actually do things wisely, put in the work, test things, test some more and STILL not succeed. It's delusional. They seem to think that if you don't succeed at this, you must be missing something. No way could anyone do all the things they could do that make sense and still fail.

        Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

        What are you saying exactly? Do I believe that after building a few hundred niche websites (just the setup) for clients, then about 100 for other projects, setting up a private blog network that's still going strong, selling about 3000 SEO packages (on the other WF) and flipping 15+ Adsense websites plus creating an authority website in a huge medical niche... you would have found a way to make money online? Simple - yes.
        Let's be clear. I'm talking about making money with websites through Adsense or affiliate offers. I'm not talking about making money selling SEO or setting up sites for others or other services. That's a whole other ballgame. I wasn't clear enough in the thread title perhaps. But I am talking about making money from niche sites basically.

        Now, do you feel the same way focusing just on that. Do you think that anyone who sets up a certain number of niche sites following basic best practices is going to succeed?

        Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

        And this is borderline... I'm 100% convinced that you're just trolling.
        I have thought you're trolling too sometimes. But perhaps this comes down to you factoring in your service businesses. Take those out. A service business, whether selling car washes or SEO or website building, is a whole other thing. I'm talking about making money off your own sites. Understand now?
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by Chrisbroholm View Post

      No offense Builder, but you seem to spend a huge amount of time debating on the forums, often versus very experienced people - like in the Adsense thread you seemed to just want to debate and counter everyone.

      I'm all for debating club, but if you spent some of the time you spent on writing all these detailed "devil's advocate" posts on your own sites you would probably see greater results.
      And more sidestepping. Do you know how much time it takes me to reply to these posts? Maybe 20-25 minutes. Give me a break.

      I may work 7-8 hours and spend 20-25 minutes on here, often while I'm eating. To try to make my time on the forum a factor in this is just silly.

      Not sure which Adsense thread you mean. Nor do I remember any thread where I wanted to counter EVERYONE. There are maybe 2 or 3 people I've had debates with on here. Most of my posts other than that are asking specific tactical questions.

      Bottom line - no my time on the forum is trivial compared to time working. Also, I find it interesting you say how I'm debating with "experienced" people. Well I'm experienced too. The difference is my experience hasn't led to so much money like some of them.

      So one interpretation is I should listen to them because they know how to make things work.

      Another interpretation is they should listen to me just as much because I'm evidence that these things only work a % of the time and not all the time.

      When someone succeeds, there seems to be this temptation to say "Ah this stuff does work when you figure out a way to do it right." The correct interpretation is "Ah this stuff works some % of the time. I wonder what % that is?" My experience is just as valuable as theirs in determining that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chrisbroholm
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        And more sidestepping. Do you know how much time it takes me to reply to these posts? Maybe 20-25 minutes. Give me a break.

        I may work 7-8 hours and spend 20-25 minutes on here, often while I'm eating. To try to make my time on the forum a factor in this is just silly.

        Not sure which Adsense thread you mean. Nor do I remember any thread where I wanted to counter EVERYONE. There are maybe 2 or 3 people I've had debates with on here. Most of my posts other than that are asking specific tactical questions.

        Bottom line - no my time on the forum is trivial compared to time working. Also, I find it interesting you say how I'm debating with "experienced" people. Well I'm experienced too. The difference is my experience hasn't led to so much money like some of them.

        So one interpretation is I should listen to them because they know how to make things work.

        Another interpretation is they should listen to me just as much because I'm evidence that these things only work a % of the time and not all the time.

        When someone succeeds, there seems to be this temptation to say "Ah this stuff does work when you figure out a way to do it right." The correct interpretation is "Ah this stuff works some % of the time. I wonder what % that is?" My experience is just as valuable as theirs in determining that.

        You sound like a clever guy, so I'm puzzled as to why you feel the need to come on the forums and have huge discussions that aren't related to your problems at all. Then you get some sort of general advice and then dismiss it completely saying that the success is based on luck and a lot of other crap.

        Maybe if you actually talked about what your process was (I'm assuming you're building niche sites) then people could help you, but all you say is that you put in a lot of effort but see little results so how are we to assist you?

        We can't see what you are doing wrong unless you tell us.
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by Chrisbroholm View Post

          You sound like a clever guy, so I'm puzzled as to why you feel the need to come on the forums and have huge discussions that aren't related to your problems at all. Then you get some sort of general advice and then dismiss it completely saying that the success is based on luck and a lot of other crap.

          Maybe if you actually talked about what your process was (I'm assuming you're building niche sites) then people could help you, but all you say is that you put in a lot of effort but see little results so how are we to assist you?

          We can't see what you are doing wrong unless you tell us.
          Are you just not reading the thread? How many times can I address the same questions? I already HAVE talked about my process many many times in other threads, on this forum and others and in private with a number of very experienced people. That is NOT the purpose of this thread.

          This thread is not to get advice on tactics. This thread is to talk about situations where you've ALREADY done that ad nauseum and still are not getting great results. What do you do THEN? I'm wondering if this is a common thing which would point to this being possibly a bad investment of time for most people not just me. Or maybe I'm the rare exception.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michel Modo
    me too. I added plenty of backlinks,shares of my site, but still no trafffic and not even conversions. I am so worry.
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  • Profile picture of the author sham2
    you will start getting traffic. don't worry and try forum commenting and blog commenting.
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  • Profile picture of the author sega001
    Dude, why are you so upset with everyone and arguing? Who cares if anyone else is struggling. The point is that you are struggling and you need to take responsibility as to why you are not getting the results you want.

    Listening to you ramble on the forum clearly shows that you would rather assign blame and drown in a pool of self pity and waste time asking the wrong questions.

    Stop asking who else in this forum is struggling to. Who Cares!

    But instead start laying out what it is EXACTLY you are been doing step by step. And let the experts tell you what it is your doing wrong. I guarantee you that judging by your ramblings and debates with others you are not thinking like a winner.

    And therefore you are getting the results you are getting in your business.

    Just accept responsibility and figure out whats wrong and fix it.

    Remember that its not action that pays off. It is the RIGHT CONSISTENT ACTION that pays off.

    People that succeed at I.M get results because they do things in a certain way.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by sega001 View Post

      Dude, why are you so upset with everyone and arguing? Who cares if anyone else is struggling. The point is that you are struggling and you need to take responsibility as to why you are not getting the results you want.

      Listening to you ramble on the forum clearly shows that you would rather assign blame and drown in a pool of self pity and waste time asking the wrong questions.

      Stop asking who else in this forum is struggling to. Who Cares!

      But instead start laying out what it is EXACTLY you are been doing step by step. And let the experts tell you what it is your doing wrong. I guarantee you that judging by your ramblings and debates with others you are not thinking like a winner.

      And therefore you are getting the results you are getting in your business.

      Just accept responsibility and figure out whats wrong and fix it.

      Remember that its not action that pays off. It is the RIGHT CONSISTENT ACTION that pays off.

      People that succeed at I.M get results because they do things in a certain way.
      I challenge you to show valid evidence for your statements here.

      You say if someone isn't getting the results they want that they are responsible. What %? 100% responsible? Or do other factors play a part? I'm not asking for your opinion but I would like to see some valid evidence backing it up.

      Lay out the specifics and ask for help? How many times can I repeat that I have already done that. Many many times. For years, both on this forum, other forums, in private discussions with many people. Am I not allowed to start one thread that isn't another rehash of those but a discussion of where things stand having already done that? You start one thread asking an honest question about how this works and it's like challenging a religion people get so annoyed by it.

      I guess "thinking like a winner" is always staying in denial and never honestly reporting results that aren't working and talking to others who also are not getting results to compare notes. This is again like religion. Even if you work as hard as you can, as smart as you can, for years with a great attitude and persistence (which by the way I still am doing and will be doing yet more of in just a minute), at no point can you stop and honestly assess that things aren't working cause then you're not "thinking like a winner." Give me a break.

      Originally Posted by sega001 View Post

      People that succeed at I.M get results because they do things in a certain way.
      That may be. But that isn't the question in this thread. The question is "If 100 people all do things the way that those who succeed at IM do it, how many will succeed? All 100? 50? 10?

      I haven't seen the research on this but my estimation from what I've seen is that maybe 15% or something of those who really know what they're doing and apply it consistently make serious money in this. Very very few. By far most people do not make serious money at this even when they are doing things just as well as those others. And yet, somehow, people fight to hold onto this belief that those who are doing well are "thinking like winners" and the others aren't. I think it's nonsense.

      Again I may be wrong, but I'm looking for some evidence of this not people's "positive thinking" opinions.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    You realize "Keeping up with the Joneses" doesn't usually work out long term, right?

    I don't understand the fascination of needing to be just like someone else.

    Do your own thing & move forward with your IM business.

    It's ok to pick up hints & tips on the small details, but trying to copy every single detail is obviously not working. Be creative.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      You realize "Keeping up with the Joneses" doesn't usually work out long term, right?

      I don't understand the fascination of needing to be just like someone else.

      Do your own thing & move forward with your IM business.

      It's ok to pick up hints & tips on the small details, but trying to copy every single detail is obviously not working. Be creative.
      You seem to have a pattern of completely misquoting people you respond to. Where did I say anything about "keeping up with the Joneses"? I didn't, nor does it have anything to do with what I'm talking about.

      I have no concern whatsoever about being "like someone else".

      I have now responded more than once clarifying that I was not talking about doing things the same as anyone else, but using best practices in testing to develop one's own methods. Each time I clarify it you ignore it and keep going with your made up view that I'm somehow telling people to just copy each other.

      Maybe if I ask this a different way we can get you on topic:

      How viable is building sites to make money off ads and/or affiliate offers to make significant income? Specifically, how wise of a bet is it on average for someone who knows the fundamentals and has a couple years experience? Not for someone clueless, but for someone who has a pretty high level of knowledge and skill compared to the average person.

      I'm not asking if a few people can succeed at it. Of course they can, that's proven. I'm asking on the large scale, is it a wise and viable option? Or is it one of those things that only a very few are going to succeed at no matter how hard or how smart they all work at it.

      If you don't think that's a worthwhile question to answer, then nobody is forcing you to respond. But for anyone who does think this is a worthwhile question, I'd like to know your thoughts - and even better if you have any actual evidence to back those up so we can be well informed on whether this is a smart path to invest tons of energy into or whether it's more like a lottery ticket that you have only a small % chance of it paying off.

      I wonder too if there has been any research on this. We have tons of research studies on things like investing in stocks and bonds and so on. Is there any research on investing in building and monetizing sites?
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      • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
        Is luck involved in IM success?

        Yes, I do believe so! The first few dollars one makes online is the motivation that actually spurs you on to continue and grow your income. No one entering this field for the first time has all the knowledge that will make them realize success immediately but there still has to be a starting point.

        Some people build their first site and even though they do not have all the knowledge the site begins to make money, yet on the other hand, someone may begin a site with the same knowledge as the other person and do the exact same amount of work as the other individual but this person doesn't earn a dime. Is this luck? I believe it is! The first person now has the motivation to continue but unfortunately the 2nd individual will lack the motivation to continue (depending on their own mindset/personality/character/frame of reference).

        It is easy for the person who failed to then say that this does not work as others proclaim. But this same individual could take a different stance and say that this didn't work out the first time around so I am going to continue educating myself and I will try again. There is definitely a psychological barrier that may form if a person doesn't experience the initial luck but according to the person's own mindset/personality/frame of reference/character that barrier could mean the end or it could spurt a new urgency to succeed. The action after failure and the thought processes is dependent on the individual themselves (we all different).

        The fact is that many IMers build sites that tank and do not make money. This happens more often early on in the IM journey but it occurs less as one gets a handle of ALL aspects of this industry. If it so happens that you have built a site and did all of the other work accurately but you still haven't experienced success then it is time to quit working on a project that has no potential - you just beating a dead horse. At this point you become that individual who quits completely or you pick yourself up and build a different site altogether.

        It is sometime hard to abandon your first project because of the time and effort that went in, but it has to be done before you experience the success you hope for.
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

          Is luck involved in IM success?

          Yes, I do believe so! The first few dollars one makes online is the motivation that actually spurs you on to continue and grow your income. No one entering this field for the first time has all the knowledge that will make them realize success immediately but there still has to be a starting point.

          Some people build their first site and even though they do not have all the knowledge the site begins to make money, yet on the other hand, someone may begin a site with the same knowledge as the other person and do the exact same amount of work as the other individual but this person doesn't earn a dime. Is this luck? I believe it is! The first person now has the motivation to continue but unfortunately the 2nd individual will lack the motivation to continue (depending on their own mindset/personality/character/frame of reference).

          It is easy for the person who failed to then say that this does not work as others proclaim. But this same individual could take a different stance and say that this didn't work out the first time around so I am going to continue educating myself and I will try again. There is definitely a psychological barrier that may form if a person doesn't experience the initial luck but according to the person's own mindset/personality/frame of reference/character that barrier could mean the end or it could spurt a new urgency to succeed. The action after failure and the thought processes is dependent on the individual themselves (we all different).

          The fact is that many IMers build sites that tank and do not make money. This happens more often early on in the IM journey but it occurs less as one gets a handle of ALL aspects of this industry. If it so happens that you have built a site and did all of the other work accurately but you still haven't experienced success then it is time to quit working on a project that has no potential - you just beating a dead horse. At this point you become that individual who quits completely or you pick yourself up and build a different site altogether.

          It is sometime hard to abandon your first project because of the time and effort that went in, but it has to be done before you experience the success you hope for.
          I agree with everything you said here. But I've made clear several times that I'm not asking about beginners here. I'm asking about people who have stuck at this for years and worked on a number of projects. Of course to make your very first project work takes some real luck.

          But my question is whether this is a wise investment over time for many people? Or let's put it another way. Would you be wiser to invest in this for a few years or to invest in something else like stocks or bonds or some other kind of company? On average how does this stack up?

          But again, I'm not asking about beginners here.
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          • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
            Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

            I agree with everything you said here. But I've made clear several times that I'm not asking about beginners here. I'm asking about people who have stuck at this for years and worked on a number of projects. Of course to make your very first project work takes some real luck.
            Then I have no doubt that the person who hasn't experienced succes after years is definitely doing something wrong. There will certainly be a gaping whole in their strategy and techniques. It will take a second for a successful marketer to see what the issue is if the person reveals their entire strategy.

            Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

            But my question is whether this is a wise investment over time for many people? Or let's put it another way. Would you be wiser to invest in this for a few years or to invest in something else like stocks or bonds or some other kind of company? On average how does this stack up?

            But again, I'm not asking about beginners here.
            SEO is not a viable and sustainable traffic generation technique as the environment is way too volatile and people who buy sites that receive 50+% of traffic from the search engines are making a bad investment. So I will say that marketers who want to enter the fold and rely completely on search engine traffic will have to be the type who are passionate about SEO and do not mind embracing change and adapting - these are the type who are huge risk-takers in life. This character type will in all liklihood do well as a SEO focused marketer - they too will have ups and downs but they understand this.

            If someone cannot bare losing all their SE traffic in one day after hours and hours of work then this person is definitely not suited to SEO. This type of person should rather stick to PPC, Social Media, Networking, List Building etc. as a technique to drive traffic and build their business.

            A true business person will actually see the potential in IM and invest in it but as a business person myself I will diversify my portfolio and invest in other ventures such as stocks, offline business etc.

            The truth is that not all people are Entrepreneurial - some are more suited to the 9-5 job!
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            • Profile picture of the author Builder154
              Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

              Then I have no doubt that the person who hasn't experienced succes after years is definitely doing something wrong. There will certainly be a gaping whole in their strategy and techniques. It will take a second for a successful marketer to see what the issue is if the person reveals their entire strategy.
              You may be right, but I hope you realize that if you are that is an extraordinary statement. I can't think of many businesses or investment opportunities where there is a 100% success rate EVEN if you do everything you can possibly do to push things in your favor. Even the very best investors in the world don't have 100% success. So just be aware of how extraordinary a claim that is to say that anyone who fails at this after a few years must be messing up and someone else could come in and see what they're doing wrong and if they fix it up they would succeed. If that's true, IM might be the only business like that on earth.

              Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

              SEO is not a viable and sustainable traffic generation technique as the environment is way too volatile and people who buy sites that receive 50+% of traffic from the search engines are making a bad investment. So I will say that marketers who want to enter the fold and rely completely on search engine traffic will have to be the type who are passionate about SEO and do not mind embracing change and adapting - these are the type who are huge risk-takers in life. This character type will in all liklihood do well as a SEO focused marketer - they too will have ups and downs but they understand this.

              If someone cannot bare losing all their SE traffic in one day after hours and hours of work then this person is definitely not suited to SEO. This type of person should rather stick to PPC, Social Media, Networking, List Building etc. as a technique to drive traffic and build their business.
              I'm just asking about making money through ads and affiliate offers on your sites. How you should generate traffic to those sites is another matter. We can certainly discuss which is the best way to generate traffic too.

              Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

              A true business person will actually see the potential in IM and invest in it but as a business person myself I will diversify my portfolio and invest in other ventures such as stocks, offline business etc.

              The truth is that not all people are Entrepreneurial - some are more suited to the 9-5 job!
              I agree. I'm just curious how this business of making money from sites with ads and affiliate offers stacks up against those other opportunities. None of them are sure bets. But which are the better bets?
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          • Profile picture of the author johnes4th
            Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

            But my question is whether this is a wise investment over time for many people? Or let's put it another way. Would you be wiser to invest in this for a few years or to invest in something else like stocks or bonds or some other kind of company? On average how does this stack up?
            It depends on what you are investing. I started out from scratch, which meant investing time. IM/Freelancing is the ideal investment opportunity for someone who has no money but tons of time.

            Back to what I think the point of this discussion was initially....

            Action is what separates success from failure, but there is a caveat most people ignore...

            It's not about just about taking action - its about taking the right action - the right way - at the right time - in the right place. (Vague I know, but without a specific scenario, it's the only way to phrase it)

            And yes... if you are consistently failing at IM after years (let's say 3+) then you are doing something wrong.

            It could be one of a hundred variables that are tripping you up, but something is.

            If you are doing "everything right" and still getting beat by the competition, then the problem was choosing the wrong competition.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        You seem to have a pattern of completely misquoting people you respond to. Where did I say anything about "keeping up with the Joneses"? I didn't, nor does it have anything to do with what I'm talking about.

        I have no concern whatsoever about being "like someone else".
        Really, I'm off topic?

        What's this:
        Anyone Else Take Tons of Action & Still Little Return?
        IMO that's a comparison.

        Even If you say your not comparing yourself & your business with others, that's all I'm seeing here.

        Good luck.
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          Even If you say your not comparing yourself & your business with others, that's all I'm seeing here.
          Like I said, comparing yourself with one person (like your example of Warren Buffett) is meaningless. But comparing many people leads to seeing patterns that are very meaningful. I'm not interested in finding any one person to compare to. I'm interested in many people weighing in.

          Ultimately, the ideal thing would be to have some stats - like we have in so many other fields - showing the real results people get in this business. As it is, we end up only hearing from a few bigshot gurus and that skews our view in a big way. I want to see a more representative sample.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    I've been going six years. I have not had enough success, yet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by Michael55555 View Post

      I've been going six years. I have not had enough success, yet.
      How would you define "enough"? 6 years is pretty significant. Are you having any success at all?
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        How would you define "enough"? 6 years is pretty significant. Are you having any success at all?
        Enough as in I'm able to be location independent and live comfortably.

        Or at least enough as in I've at least broken even financially... and not spent more money than I've earned. Lololol.

        For real. Lolol.
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by Michael55555 View Post

          Enough as in I'm able to be location independent and live comfortably.

          Or at least enough as in I've at least broken even financially... and not spent more money than I've earned. Lololol.

          For real. Lolol.
          I've probably ended up ahead, rather than losing money. But not by a ton. So I sympathize. 6 years is impressive to keep it up without seeing the success. Do you have any plans to change things up or any new strategies? Do you plan to keep doing this persistently?
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  • Profile picture of the author Devin X
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

    Everyone talks about how taking action is the big difference that separates people who succeed and who don't. But I have taken tons and tons of action for quite a while - a while meaning years. I've had some little successes here and there. But nothing too much. A few bucks here and there.

    Anyone else taking tons of action consistently and still not getting anywhere even in the neighborhood of serious returns? It's frustrating when you look back and realize even at minimum wage, the amount of hours you put in you'd have made a ton more money. Or that even charging a few bucks per article writing for other people you'd have probably made more than your own articles are bringing in for all those hours invested.
    Hey man, what are you doing exactly? I had similar experiences for the first 3 years of my IM journey...then things just came together. Just ****in' lucky I guess, which is why I'll disagree with flip flops from my personal experience.

    For example, I understood the importance of traffic and a good sales funnel with a great amount of preselling via email series. Problem was that the traffic wasn't converting! I'd get 100s of hops a day, even on affiliate sites and 0-1 sales.

    Then, out of the blue, traffic started converting. I honestly didn't do anything different because I WAS doing everything right for my business model. SO I can say it was luck, or some other variable that I still don't know about to this day...I'm glad it came together though.

    So all I can say is that evaluate what you're doing, evaluate your business model. If you are doing everything right then just give it more time...but always improve upon your system whenever you can.
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by TheRealDudeman View Post

      Hey man, what are you doing exactly? I had similar experiences for the first 3 years of my IM journey...then things just came together. Just ****in' lucky I guess, which is why I'll disagree with flip flops from my personal experience.

      For example, I understood the importance of traffic and a good sales funnel with a great amount of preselling via email series. Problem was that the traffic wasn't converting! I'd get 100s of hops a day, even on affiliate sites and 0-1 sales.

      Then, out of the blue, traffic started converting. I honestly didn't do anything different because I WAS doing everything right for my business model. SO I can say it was luck, or some other variable that I still don't know about to this day...I'm glad it came together though.

      So all I can say is that evaluate what you're doing, evaluate your business model. If you are doing everything right then just give it more time...but always improve upon your system whenever you can.
      Thanks for your story. It shows what a crap shoot this can be. But I find it hilarious that you say you did nothing different and suddenly things started converting and you have no idea why. And then your signature says you have the big secret to all of this

      Anyway, I agree that all you can do is keep looking for ways to improve. But if you've already done that and don't know what more to do, all you can do is hope for some odd turn of events like happened to you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Devin X
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        Thanks for your story. It shows what a crap shoot this can be. But I find it hilarious that you say you did nothing different and suddenly things started converting and you have no idea why. And then your signature says you have the big secret to all of this

        Anyway, I agree that all you can do is keep looking for ways to improve. But if you've already done that and don't know what more to do, all you can do is hope for some odd turn of events like happened to you.
        LOL click on my signature and see what happens...go ahead.

        And yes, despite what people tell you here. There is just dumb ****ing luck. There's plenty of people in life that tried their damn hardest and never amounted to ****. Life aint fair sometimes. Then there's people like eminem or sylvester stallone that tried their damned hardest, didnt' do much different, and then just got lucky. So all I can say is keep truckin'
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by TheRealDudeman View Post

      Hey man, what are you doing exactly? I had similar experiences for the first 3 years of my IM journey...then things just came together. Just ****in' lucky I guess, which is why I'll disagree with flip flops from my personal experience.

      For example, I understood the importance of traffic and a good sales funnel with a great amount of preselling via email series. Problem was that the traffic wasn't converting! I'd get 100s of hops a day, even on affiliate sites and 0-1 sales.

      Then, out of the blue, traffic started converting. I honestly didn't do anything different because I WAS doing everything right for my business model. SO I can say it was luck, or some other variable that I still don't know about to this day...I'm glad it came together though.

      So all I can say is that evaluate what you're doing, evaluate your business model. If you are doing everything right then just give it more time...but always improve upon your system whenever you can.
      Sorry I just actually clicked on your signature! hahahah. I owe you an apology sir.
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  • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
    @Builder154

    Do yourself a favor and read the following books:

    Think and Grow Rich - Napolean Hill
    Psycho Cybernetics - Maxwell Maltz (Christian Based)
    The Magic of Thinking Big - Dr. David J. Schwartz

    No offence but I truly believe you have a mindset barrier that is limiting your success! The principles of success can be learned and the habit of success is developed by constantly setting goals and achieving them. An environment of pessimism will breed failure!
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

      @Builder154

      Do yourself a favor and read the following books:

      Think and Grow Rich - Napolean Hill
      Psycho Cybernetics - Maxwell Maltz (Christian Based)
      The Magic of Thinking Big - Dr. David J. Schwartz

      No offence but I truly believe you have a mindset barrier that is limiting your success! The principles of success can be learned and the habit of success is developed by constantly setting goals and achieving them. An environment of pessimism will breed failure!
      I read all those books and more many years ago. I am not a believer in that kind of positive thinking stuff, sorry. In fact that's one of the problems I'm finding in the IM world, as I've said in this thread. When people succeed, there is far too much belief that they are somehow doing some great special thing. And when people don't succeed we just make up things like they aren't "thinking like a winner."

      There is a difference between realism and pessimism. I'm not a pessimist. If i was I wouldn't have kept working this long and I wouldn't be continuing now. But I am a realist. And it's only wise at a certain point to stop and take stock and see if this stuff really truly is a good bet or not. It's too much of a guru-driven thing where a few bigshots inspire tons of other people. I really want to know how the community as a whole is doing to get an honest assessment of this business.

      The funny thing is in almost every other business this is done as a matter of routine. But if you even ask for such information in this business, the "think positive" crowd jumps on you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chrisbroholm
    I think you should quit. It's clearly not for you.
    Signature

    Check out my blog GenuineOnlineMarketing.com where I talk about building Amazon and Adsense Niche Websites.

    Over 800 Amazon Reviews for $1 - No way?

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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by Chrisbroholm View Post

      I think you should quit. It's clearly not for you.
      Yeah it's only for people who blindly believe and don't ask for evidence backing up that it works for more than a handful of people.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dellco
        Two things to bear in mind for IM are:

        1) The barrier for entering Internet Marketing is so low that a 12 year old can start doing it the same as a 70 year old. What this means is that competition will ALWAYS be increasing - even as I type this.

        2) There are only 10 spots on the first page of Google or Bing or Yahoo. So out of the 1000s/10,000s/100,000s/1,000,000s of people going after a keyword, there will only be 10 there. And not only that, only the top 5 is where most of the action is.

        So not everyone will succeed, despite all the intelligence/effort/talent/mojo/charisma/whatever...that they possess or put in. Of course, getting traffic from search engines is not the only way, but you get my point - Spaces on the podium are LIMITED.

        And don't forget the "Google/SE factor"....as they will always be trying to bring you down (unless you happen to be good friends with Larry Page and Co).

        The crazy low entry barrier is the culprit that makes most IMers or wannabe IMers think that they will succeed (if only) they try harder or longer. However, insanity....... is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.

        Sometimes, if you cannot succeed in one thing, try something else. Don't keep beating your head against the wall for the sake of it. You need to find out where your true vocation is.
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  • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
    Here are some stats for you to chew on! This isn't focused on IM specifically but it does include home-based business which will include various other types of businesses beside an online based business. Very interesting stats:

    Small Business Success/Failure Rates | The Big Picture

    Challenge:

    I bet you a $100 I can build a site from scratch and get it to the $10-$20/day mark within 6-7 weeks! If you believe that success is such a rarity in this industry then this should be virtually impossibe, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

      Here are some stats for you to chew on! This isn't focused on IM specifically but it does include home-based business which will include various other types of businesses beside an online based business. Very interesting stats:

      Small Business Success/Failure Rates | The Big Picture

      Challenge:

      I bet you a $100 I can build a site from scratch and get it to the $10-$20/day mark within 6-7 weeks! If you believe that success is such a rarity in this industry then this should be virtually impossibe, right?
      When did I say success is such a rarity? What I said over and over is we don't seem to know how rare or common it is. We know a handful of people do very well. But we don't really take the time to find out the overall success rate among highly skilled people in this industry.

      I also wouldn't be so impressed with you doing what you said unless you got it to $10-20 a day PROFIT.
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      • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

        When did I say success is such a rarity? What I said over and over is we don't seem to know how rare or common it is. We know a handful of people do very well. But we don't really take the time to find out the overall success rate among highly skilled people in this industry.

        I also wouldn't be so impressed with you doing what you said unless you got it to $10-20 a day PROFIT.
        You haven't said it but you are implying it all over this thread! You believe there is this elite group of people who experience success but the masses do not.

        And yes, that will be profit!
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        • Profile picture of the author Builder154
          Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

          You haven't said it but you are implying it all over this thread! You believe there is this elite group of people who experience success but the masses do not.

          And yes, that will be profit!
          I'm more and more amazed at people's inability to read. Not only did I not imply it. I SPECIFICALLY have clarified something like 3 times that WE DO NOT KNOW. People just read whatever they want to read I guess. Try reading my actual words and you'll see I said quite the opposite of that numerous times.
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          • Profile picture of the author IM Ash
            Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

            I'm more and more amazed at people's inability to read. Not only did I not imply it. I SPECIFICALLY have clarified something like 3 times that WE DO NOT KNOW. People just read whatever they want to read I guess. Try reading my actual words and you'll see I said quite the opposite of that numerous times.
            You yourself do not know what you have said in this thread:

            Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

            This is a field where, from what I can gather, a very very small % of people ever make any significant amount regularly. The gurus like to claim this is because they just don't put in the work. I think that is true of some. But there are lots of people putting in a heck of a lot of work, doing nothing really different than the gurus. It's just that there are two facts:

            1) Some small % is going to succeed just statistically
            2) Once you start to succeed it can become a cycle as you have more money to invest in the next project, more followers, more sites to build links from and on and on.
            I'm done with this thread! The reason for your failures are clear to all reading this!
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            • Profile picture of the author Builder154
              Originally Posted by IM Ash View Post

              You yourself do not know what you have said in this thread:



              I'm done with this thread! The reason for your failures are clear to all reading this!
              Way to do what you love to do and take my statements out of context. I like how you ignore that I said from what I can gather. And I especially like how you ignored that the entire context of that statement was that we lack clear data. I said "this is my guess, but I could be wrong and we need actual data to tell us what the truth is." That's what I've said the whole thread. If you cared to quote me honestly you'd read that, but since you are one of those people who just wants to keep believing that anyone who doesn't succeed is doing something wrong, which helps you keep believing your success is cause you're so special and not due to luck, you'll keep twisting things.

              People who want to believe that success is cause of their great skills and talent will block out all sorts of things to keep believing that and not have to check it against the actual data.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    Stop feeding the troll guys.

    If you're not a troll: I sincerely hope that you find a job/career that suits you well. Quit trying to make money online and do something which you know you're capable of being successful at. And best of luck!
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    • Profile picture of the author Chrisbroholm
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      Stop feeding the troll guys.

      If you're not a troll: I sincerely hope that you find a job/career that suits you well. Quit trying to make money online and do something which you know you're capable of being successful at. And best of luck!
      I wasn't convinced that he was a troll, but honestly reading his last few posts just make me laugh. Responding to my "quit - its not for you" post with "Yeah it's only for people who blindly believe and don't ask for evidence backing up that it works for more than a handful of people."

      Kinda convinced me. Someone as articulate couldn't possibly be that delusional/stupid.

      WP Builder. I'm out.
      Signature

      Check out my blog GenuineOnlineMarketing.com where I talk about building Amazon and Adsense Niche Websites.

      Over 800 Amazon Reviews for $1 - No way?

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  • Profile picture of the author marketwarrior06
    Banned
    Actually its the profession of trial and error. You can't stop doing tons of actions. and its not necessary that you will get the return every time. So I suggest that you shouldn't be fed up. continue doing the job.
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  • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
    IM is the ultimate glass ceiling. You could be banging your head against it for years, making a few small dents here and there...however you could in theory remain forever banging your head against it.

    When you do break through the ceiling, the increase in earnings is quite dramatic. You start to almost disbelieve it, as it takes so little time to earn more than you have in years marketing online.

    What you need to do if you are doing the SAME thing for YEARS on end with no results is find out WHY you are not succeeding and change your approach based on your constructive criticism of yourself. Sometimes, it's as simple as changing from one area of IM to another, e.g. emailing to PPC, or vice versa.
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  • Profile picture of the author lexilexi
    This thread is highly entertaining. What a lot of opinions!

    I can relate to this. I have been there. I decided to build the best sites on a certain subject, with the best content, best this, best that... and didn't get anywhere with them. They sit floundering in SERP dust and no-one gives a crap. Link building blah, 3 year old site, still no results. I literally have sites that are the best quality site out there on certain subjects and don't make me a crap of money. ****ing kills me the amount of work I put into these piles of glittering poop.

    Then I have one-pager sites that have made me thousands. There is a lot of take away from this... so, as I see it:

    1) Testing, Testing, Testing. You do not know if an idea is going to succeed. You need to create tests AND be able to form actionable conclusions from them. Sometimes your "best" ideas come to naught, and other times, a dumb-ass web site idea you thought of when you were taking a dump, turns out to be a gold mine. Quite often we get too enamoured of our own ideas. Don't be, that is just your ego.

    2) If you find yourself hammering away at the same wall and it won't break down, stop it! Persistence is SOMETIMES valuable, but sometimes it will just give you a sore head. The REAL pros are the ones who can sense which ideas are worth persisting with, and which ones are worth cutting your losses on. You need to be driven, for sure, and focused, but not just blindly hacking at whatever or bouncing around randomly.

    I will give you a real-life example: I used to build a lot of medium to large adsense niche info-sites thinking that all I had to do was rank a lot of keywords and I would be gold. A logical truth, but an ASSUMPTION that I would be able to rank those keywords. I had no idea at the time that I would never get to the top of the hill, because the authority sites in the niche were already so established that they were gaining links and power faster than my resources would allow me to catch them. In this case, when the enemy can run faster than you, persistence simply leads to exhaustion. You need to choose your battles.

    Another thing I learned was that CTR is to a great extent "pre-ordained" by the niche - and that a site quickly reveals it's general CTR and therefore moneymaking potential. Now, I will only build a few pages and wait for the CTR to reveal itself.... if the CTR is bunk, the amount of effort it takes to rank the pages and expand the site isn't worth the time, I will just forget it and try something else.

    There's a lot more I could say here but I have too much to do, taking the actions that will make money. Start with a super small and EASY niche, try and make a dollar a day on auto pilot and then make some conclusions based on that.
    Signature

    "If there is no door, it becomes necessary to break out through the wall."

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    • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
      Originally Posted by lexilexi View Post


      2) If you find yourself hammering away at the same wall and it won't break down, stop it! Persistence is SOMETIMES valuable, but sometimes it will just give you a sore head. The REAL pros are the ones who can sense which ideas are worth persisting with, and which ones are worth cutting your losses on. You need to be driven, for sure, and focused, but not just blindly hacking at whatever or bouncing around randomly.
      Exactly, Lexi. There is a fine line between persistence (good) and banging your head against a brick wall (bad). You've got to develop the self-awareness to know WHEN a plan is viable and when to quit and change your approach. There is no shame in quitting, in fact it can lead to success, but you have to develop an intuition as to when something will never work no matter how long and hard you try, vs a plan which is good, but just requires some persistence.

      An example of this is SEO newbies who spend years blasting away with AMR, scrapebox etc., yet they wonder why they still can't rank in 2012. They continue to blast without ever changing their approach, despite the overwhelming evidence (i.e. lack of results) that suggests the SB/AMR approach will never work. The plan needs to be changed.
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      • Profile picture of the author Builder154
        Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

        Exactly, Lexi. There is a fine line between persistence (good) and banging your head against a brick wall (bad). You've got to develop the self-awareness to know WHEN a plan is viable and when to quit and change your approach. There is no shame in quitting, in fact it can lead to success, but you have to develop an intuition as to when something will never work no matter how long and hard you try, vs a plan which is good, but just requires some persistence.

        An example of this is SEO newbies who spend years blasting away with AMR, scrapebox etc., yet they wonder why they still can't rank in 2012. They continue to blast without ever changing their approach, despite the overwhelming evidence (i.e. lack of results) that suggests the SB/AMR approach will never work. The plan needs to be changed.
        Yes but in this very thread we had a guy post who did the same thing for a long time with no success and then overnight it started converting. So it's just impossible to know when you're on the wrong track and when it's "darkest right before the dawn". This is part of what makes this all so confusing.

        The few who made the right guess at the right time become convinced they have some special knowledge. But meanwhile a ton of other people just as smart make the same decision and it doesn't work out. It has a lot to do with luck.
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        • Profile picture of the author Guru SEO
          Maybe you shouls look at this from a different way.

          Internet sales keep growing every year and there is no doubt in my mind that the future will be a boom town on the net.

          This said, selling on main street or on the Internet have very similar concepts, people are looking to fit there needs.

          Ex. They want to save money and replace Starbuck with a good coffee machine.
          They want to start eating healthy and are looking for a juicer.

          So, what need or problem are you solving?

          Then you need traffic, a coffee shop in the middle of a dessert will not do well, unless it is Las vegas. Do you have traffic?

          How to convert this on the net?

          It all depends on your focus.

          Good content for making money with adsense, I say should be good enought to get ranked, but not fully answer the need so they click on the ads.

          For Amazon products, you need to have very good content , photos, reviews and a complete answer for there need, you want them to buy.

          Making money online or in the real world is pretty much the same.
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          • Profile picture of the author Builder154
            Originally Posted by Guru SEO View Post

            Maybe you shouls look at this from a different way.

            Internet sales keep growing every year and there is no doubt in my mind that the future will be a boom town on the net.

            This said, selling on main street or on the Internet have very similar concepts, people are looking to fit there needs.

            Ex. They want to save money and replace Starbuck with a good coffee machine.
            They want to start eating healthy and are looking for a juicer.

            So, what need or problem are you solving?

            Then you need traffic, a coffee shop in the middle of a dessert will not do well, unless it is Las vegas. Do you have traffic?

            How to convert this on the net?

            It all depends on your focus.

            Good content for making money with adsense, I say should be good enought to get ranked, but not fully answer the need so they click on the ads.

            For Amazon products, you need to have very good content , photos, reviews and a complete answer for there need, you want them to buy.

            Making money online or in the real world is pretty much the same.
            Thanks. I agree with everything you say here. And I have for years.

            The whole point in this thread is that even knowing and implementing that, some of us still don't come anywhere close to making a living at this.

            I know the temptation when someone is not having major success is to assume they must be unaware of some of the basics. But it's just not the case. I know all of the things mentioned in this thread and have for a while.

            I really think the fact is that there is a bigger element of luck than a lot of people want to admit. In fact, even the successes I have had have not been with the things that I expected to work and vice versa. This is really a numbers game. You have to put out as much as you can using the best strategy you can and if you keep doing that hopefully you eventually hit a few winners. But the numbers game also means there are always going to be more people getting moderate results than getting really good results. And moderate results in this business will not make you a living.
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        • Profile picture of the author johnnys229
          Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

          Yes but in this very thread we had a guy post who did the same thing for a long time with no success and then overnight it started converting. So it's just impossible to know when you're on the wrong track and when it's "darkest right before the dawn". This is part of what makes this all so confusing.
          Exactly. This is why I mention intuition which you will develop as you fail/succeed over time. For example, now I am able to determine pretty quickly whether a plan I have will succeed or not even in the early days. Of course, intuition can never be 100% as one cannot predict the future, but I have become pretty good at it.

          In the same vain, I have persisted in certain plans, SEO for example, where it did indeed seem to be very dark, but I knew that it would take time to rank, and in the end, I got great success.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by jb200800 View Post

            Exactly. This is why I mention intuition which you will develop as you fail/succeed over time.
            Great post! Very few people just "get lucky". It's easy to blame others/invisible forces for our own failures.

            I do 4x 5km runs every week. Every single week. About half a year ago I couldn't run for ****, but now I can easily finish a 5km race in under 20 minutes (<17 min in perfect conditions).

            Same thing in business. Hard work and persistence pay off - always. OP isn't working hard and he most certainly isn't doing "everything right".

            One thing I should have asked him in my very first post: define "doing everything right". Because, and this is something that he can't comprehend, "following" someone else's "system" isn't "doing everything right". But, once again, the same principle applies everywhere in life.

            And yes, there are exceptionally lucky people out there, no matter what industry/career/sport/etc you want to talk about. They are the exceptions, not those who work hard and build wealth/get results.

            Newsflash: you don't need to be the top performer (in any area) to be successful.

            (this is not for the OP) here's a great motivational video I used to listen to when I started training ("luckily" my income has nearly doubled since I took up regular physical exercise):


            Good luck, OP. Whatever it is that you want to do in life.
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            • Profile picture of the author Builder154
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              Great post! Very few people just "get lucky". It's easy to blame others/invisible forces for our own failures.

              I do 4x 5km runs every week. Every single week. About half a year ago I couldn't run for ****, but now I can easily finish a 5km race in under 20 minutes (<17 min in perfect conditions).

              Same thing in business. Hard work and persistence pay off - always. OP isn't working hard and he most certainly isn't doing "everything right".

              One thing I should have asked him in my very first post: define "doing everything right". Because, and this is something that he can't comprehend, "following" someone else's "system" isn't "doing everything right". But, once again, the same principle applies everywhere in life.

              And yes, there are exceptionally lucky people out there, no matter what industry/career/sport/etc you want to talk about. They are the exceptions, not those who work hard and build wealth/get results.

              Newsflash: you don't need to be the top performer (in any area) to be successful.

              (this is not for the OP) here's a great motivational video I used to listen to when I started training ("luckily" my income has nearly doubled since I took up regular physical exercise):

              MOTIVATION Be Great, Powerful Beyond Measure II - EXTENDED - YouTube

              Good luck, OP. Whatever it is that you want to do in life.
              It's become clear to me that you are one of those "positive thinking" fanatics. There's not much more to say to each other on this. You constantly misquote, selectively quote, ignore things I've posted even from other people far more successful than you agreeing with me and so on.

              I am pretty sure even if you were failing yourself you'd just deny it and keep "thinking positive."

              Like I said earlier in this thread, it's like a religion or faith kind of thing. There's no arguing with it. Best of luck. I prefer reality and honesty to the religion of "positive thinking."
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            • Profile picture of the author nest28
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              Great post! Very few people just "get lucky". It's easy to blame others/invisible forces for our own failures.

              I do 4x 5km runs every week. Every single week. About half a year ago I couldn't run for ****, but now I can easily finish a 5km race in under 20 minutes (<17 min in perfect conditions).

              Same thing in business. Hard work and persistence pay off - always. OP isn't working hard and he most certainly isn't doing "everything right".

              One thing I should have asked him in my very first post: define "doing everything right". Because, and this is something that he can't comprehend, "following" someone else's "system" isn't "doing everything right". But, once again, the same principle applies everywhere in life.

              And yes, there are exceptionally lucky people out there, no matter what industry/career/sport/etc you want to talk about. They are the exceptions, not those who work hard and build wealth/get results.

              Newsflash: you don't need to be the top performer (in any area) to be successful.

              (this is not for the OP) here's a great motivational video I used to listen to when I started training ("luckily" my income has nearly doubled since I took up regular physical exercise):

              MOTIVATION Be Great, Powerful Beyond Measure II - EXTENDED - YouTube

              Good luck, OP. Whatever it is that you want to do in life.
              I totally agree, even though this is seo forum, and not bodybuilding forum the two are very similar. When people don't see results after working out for few weeks they quit, not knowing that you need to workout for months, have good diet, and workout routine in order to see the desired results.

              Same with seo, you have to have a good game plan, quality links etc, and it takes time to see results. But if you stick to it, you will be one of very few people who is making a living online.

              Just like bnetwork said, just working out has made me look at things differently, in all other aspects of my life including seo.



              Here's my personal favorite motivational video, just like Greg Plitts says you have to go into things HEAD STRONG, or don't even bother because you will most likely fail.


              On a personal note, I LOVE THIS FREAKIN VIDEO LOL, this it what got me back into the gym doing super sets and eating chicken n grits 6 times a day, it also the reason you guys are starting to see me on the forum a little more, I had hit rough patch in my life recently and just gave up on everything, including IM. But now I'm trying to pick up the pieces and get my latest site going, I have some internal linking to do among other things, but I'm excited about seo again, mostly because I changed my way of thinking.


              I felt like hey if I don't try, if I don't work hard, I will be a failure, and who wants to be a failure in life.
              Signature

              Somewhere watching Power.

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              • Profile picture of the author Builder154
                Originally Posted by nest28 View Post

                I totally agree, even though this is seo forum, and not bodybuilding forum the two are very similar. When people don't see results after working out for few weeks they quit, not knowing that you need to workout for months, have good diet, and workout routine in order to see the desired results.

                Same with seo, you have to have a good game plan, quality links etc, and it takes time to see results. But if you stick to it, you will be one of very few people who is making a living online.

                Just like bnetwork said, just working out has made me look at things differently, in all other aspects of my life including seo.


                Greg Plitt Head Strong Workout Preview - GregPlitt.com - YouTube

                Here's my personal favorite motivational video, just like Greg Plitts says you have to go into things HEAD STRONG, or don't even bother because you will most likely fail.


                On a personal note, I LOVE THIS FREAKIN VIDEO LOL, this it what got me back into the gym doing super sets and eating chicken n grits 6 times a day, it also the reason you guys are starting to see me on the forum a little more, I had hit rough patch in my life recently and just gave up on everything, including IM. But now I'm trying to pick up the pieces and get my latest site going, I have some internal linking to do among other things, but I'm excited about seo again, mostly because I changed my way of thinking.


                I felt like hey if I don't try, if I don't work hard, I will be a failure, and who wants to be a failure in life.
                This is how it works. You say something isn't working. All the "positive thinking" folks say "Oh you just didn't try hard enough or long enough." You explain that yes you did. You did not just expect it to work fast, but that even after putting in the time and effort it still didn't work. So then the "positive thinking" people make up some next hoop. When you explain you jumped through that too, they make up another and another.

                Eventually you realize that people like that are just unwilling to even consider that something can just simply not work. Or that it can only work for a % of people. This business may only work for, say, 20% of the people who do it, even if they do it to the very best ability. And the 20% who succeed out of that group may have done nothing any better than the other 80%. It was just the way things are structured that 20% were going to succeed and they happened to be in that group.

                The "positive thinking" people simply cannot even allow for that possibility. If it turned out to be true, they'd just deny it.

                I am not saying what the facts are because I don't know. But I do know I will base my understanding on actual evidence and learning more about how many people truly do succeed at this, not on labeling everyone who doesn't succeed as just "not trying hard enough" or "not thinking positive enough." Those are all made up assumptions.

                The "positive thinking" stuff can't be reasoned with. I'd love to talk to some people who don't go to that stuff over and over again because I don't buy into it.
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                • Profile picture of the author nest28
                  Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

                  This is how it works. You say something isn't working. All the "positive thinking" folks say "Oh you just didn't try hard enough or long enough." You explain that yes you did. You did not just expect it to work fast, but that even after putting in the time and effort it still didn't work. So then the "positive thinking" people make up some next hoop. When you explain you jumped through that too, they make up another and another.

                  Eventually you realize that people like that are just unwilling to even consider that something can just simply not work. Or that it can only work for a % of people. This business may only work for, say, 20% of the people who do it, even if they do it to the very best ability. And the 20% who succeed out of that group may have done nothing any better than the other 80%. It was just the way things are structured that 20% were going to succeed and they happened to be in that group.

                  The "positive thinking" people simply cannot even allow for that possibility. If it turned out to be true, they'd just deny it.

                  I am not saying what the facts are because I don't know. But I do know I will base my understanding on actual evidence and learning more about how many people truly do succeed at this, not on labeling everyone who doesn't succeed as just "not trying hard enough" or "not thinking positive enough." Those are all made up assumptions.

                  The "positive thinking" stuff can't be reasoned with. I'd love to talk to some people who don't go to that stuff over and over again because I don't buy into it.
                  Listen I been where your at many times in life, I actually have the word "cursed" tattoo on my right forearm, because that's how I felt, like nothing I could do would ever amount to anything.

                  You know how many times I look at other people doing dirt,lying,stealing,cheating and they all seem to have great lives, while I on the other hand always tried to do the right thing only to have a bunch of negative things happen as a result.

                  How do you think I feel to have finally be able to make money online only to have it taken away from me, to succeed but have it end in failure. I had to move on, you say that the positive people wont allow their selves to believe that things may go wrong. That's because when you think positive you can't allow any negative thought to enter your mind or they will hinder your thinking, and next thing you know you get frustrated and want to give up.

                  For example just last night something happened they made me feel like f the world, I was like I'm not working out, eating 6 meals tomorrow or doing anything else I planned on doing. When I woke up , I didn't eat at 7am like I normally do, and now I feel like sh*t for not eating, or working out, I let what happened last night affect me to the point that now I'm heading down path of failure, not success.

                  I decided to just miss the first meal but I'm going to eat 5 more later and workout, because the alternative is to not have the body I want,to sit on couch steering at computer screen or tv, and watch 300 just wishing I looked like king leonidas or I can get my lazy ass up and work hard to have the things I want.

                  You can't sit there and complain, nobody like a whiner, you may have to deal with the fact that IM is not for you, you may do extremely well in another field of work.
                  Signature

                  Somewhere watching Power.

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                  • Profile picture of the author remodeler
                    Originally Posted by nest28 View Post

                    You can't sit there and complain, nobody like a whiner, you may have to deal with the fact that IM is not for you, you may do extremely well in another field of work.
                    Isn't that the truth! Hey, not everyone in life is cut out for IM. Just like not everyone will succeed in car sales, computer programming, daycare, or a million other careers in life. You find what you excel in and go after it.

                    As for the "positive thinkers", I'd much rather be in a group of positive thinking people who only look for ways to succeed and overcome than in a group of whiners and complainers talking negative BS on how they are so unlucky in life or how others steered them wrong, etc. This is a business! A small percentage will succeed and many will fail. It's obvious that IM is not for the OP, so why not stop wasting time arguing with everyone and go out and discover what you are cut out for? Life is short...
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                    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
                      Originally Posted by remodeler View Post

                      Isn't that the truth! Hey, not everyone in life is cut out for IM. Just like not everyone will succeed in car sales, computer programming, daycare, or a million other careers in life. You find what you excel in and go after it.

                      As for the "positive thinkers", I'd much rather be in a group of positive thinking people who only look for ways to succeed and overcome than in a group of whiners and complainers talking negative BS on how they are so unlucky in life or how others steered them wrong, etc. This is a business! A small percentage will succeed and many will fail. It's obvious that IM is not for the OP, so why not stop wasting time arguing with everyone and go out and discover what you are cut out for? Life is short...
                      Calling those who legitimately question the success rate for high performers in a particular business "whiners" and saying "oh this is just not cut out for you" is really ridiculous. It shows an unwillingness to ask real questions and a blind faith mindset.

                      Nobody in this thread said a word about how unlucky in life they are or any such thing. What was said is that certain fields require more luck than others to succeed. For example, you need a lot more luck to become a top selling recording artist than to become a plumber. There are just more factors out of your control in the recording industry. There are thousands of amazing singers who simply don't get that big break. It has nothing to do with their talent or how hard they work or their attitude. It simply has to do with the fact that in certain industries the spots are more limited.

                      Now where does IM fit into that? Is it more like plumbing where there are a lot of spots and if you really want to do it and work hard, most people can do it? Or is it more like being a pop star where only a few (like the big gurus we all know) really make money and the rest just chase dreams and rainbows? This is a completely reasonable question. It is not a "negative" question. It is based on the very real fact that certain industries are much higher risk and others you can pretty much find your way if you put in the work.

                      Saying "This obviously isn't for you" or "You're whining" are just ways to avoid answering the question while throwing petty insults. Deal with the actual meat of the question. Is IM an industry of a few very rich folks and 80% people chasing dreams they will not attain no matter how hard they work? Or is IM an industry where, if you do the work and do it wisely, most people can make a living?
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                      • Profile picture of the author remodeler
                        Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

                        Calling those who legitimately question the success rate for high performers in a particular business "whiners" and saying "oh this is just not cut out for you" is really ridiculous. It shows an unwillingness to ask real questions and a blind faith mindset.

                        Nobody in this thread said a word about how unlucky in life they are or any such thing. What was said is that certain fields require more luck than others to succeed. For example, you need a lot more luck to become a top selling recording artist than to become a plumber. There are just more factors out of your control in the recording industry. There are thousands of amazing singers who simply don't get that big break. It has nothing to do with their talent or how hard they work or their attitude. It simply has to do with the fact that in certain industries the spots are more limited.

                        Now where does IM fit into that? Is it more like plumbing where there are a lot of spots and if you really want to do it and work hard, most people can do it? Or is it more like being a pop star where only a few (like the big gurus we all know) really make money and the rest just chase dreams and rainbows? This is a completely reasonable question. It is not a "negative" question. It is based on the very real fact that certain industries are much higher risk and others you can pretty much find your way if you put in the work.

                        Saying "This obviously isn't for you" or "You're whining" are just ways to avoid answering the question while throwing petty insults. Deal with the actual meat of the question. Is IM an industry of a few very rich folks and 80% people chasing dreams they will not attain no matter how hard they work? Or is IM an industry where, if you do the work and do it wisely, most people can make a living?
                        I'm not going to argue with you. It's obvious from this thread and others such as Carl's that you are not looking for answers to questions. For someone who has admittedly had no success in IM, you have quite a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason. That mindset will leave you forever in the same position you are now in.

                        Here is what I think would be the ideal career path for you. From reading your posts I believe your success in life will be as a statistician of some sort. You love stats, numbers and percentages, so it is an ideal fit for you. I hope you you take that serious and consider it. I wish you only the best in the future.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Builder154
                    Originally Posted by nest28 View Post

                    Listen I been where your at many times in life, I actually have the word "cursed" tattoo on my right forearm, because that's how I felt, like nothing I could do would ever amount to anything.

                    You know how many times I look at other people doing dirt,lying,stealing,cheating and they all seem to have great lives, while I on the other hand always tried to do the right thing only to have a bunch of negative things happen as a result.

                    How do you think I feel to have finally be able to make money online only to have it taken away from me, to succeed but have it end in failure. I had to move on, you say that the positive people wont allow their selves to believe that things may go wrong. That's because when you think positive you can't allow any negative thought to enter your mind or they will hinder your thinking, and next thing you know you get frustrated and want to give up.

                    For example just last night something happened they made me feel like f the world, I was like I'm not working out, eating 6 meals tomorrow or doing anything else I planned on doing. When I woke up , I didn't eat at 7am like I normally do, and now I feel like sh*t for not eating, or working out, I let what happened last night affect me to the point that now I'm heading down path of failure, not success.

                    I decided to just miss the first meal but I'm going to eat 5 more later and workout, because the alternative is to not have the body I want,to sit on couch steering at computer screen or tv, and watch 300 just wishing I looked like king leonidas or I can get my lazy ass up and work hard to have the things I want.

                    You can't sit there and complain, nobody like a whiner, you may have to deal with the fact that IM is not for you, you may do extremely well in another field of work.
                    You're still missing the point.

                    You said:

                    "That's because when you think positive you can't allow any negative thought to enter your mind or they will hinder your thinking, and next thing you know you get frustrated and want to give up."

                    This is my problem with the "positive thinking" stuff. It's that you claim the thoughts are what determine what happens. You say if a "negative thought" comes in your mind, it hinders your thinking. That's just nonsense to me. Do you have any evidence that this is the case? There are 1000 things that influence whether you succeed. Whether you have a negative thought may make no difference. There are even people like Woody Allen who are known for being laughably negative but have huge success. And other people who are always positive that are homeless.

                    My point is that it's a myth this idea that having "positive thoughts" determines what happens. I think that's made up.

                    As for calling me a whiner, that also shows you are not reading what I'm actually saying. "Positive thinking" folks can't seem to read properly so I'll spell it out again.

                    What I'm trying to figure out are what the actual stats are on how good an investment this is even for someone who does it wisely and well. In any business you go into, there are a certain % that succeed. Even many people who are doing things properly do not. Different businesses have different success rates. What is the true success rate in IM? Positive thinking folks don't even want that question asked. They want their business to be the one business that you are just "negative" if you ask for actual research and data because they want to just blindly believe. Well I don't go for that. I want to know if this business pays off for a significant % of people who do things well. Not just people failing because they don't put in the work or have no idea what they're doing. But people who do know what they're doing, do put in the work. What % of those people will succeed in IM and how does this relate to other fields?
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        • Profile picture of the author MMateo23
          Great post. This is what we need to hear. Many times, at least speaking for myself, I think of giving up because I do feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. I guess it is just a matter of focus and persistence. A little bit of luck doesn't hurt either.
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  • Profile picture of the author boxoun
    Doing it right = sending traffic to converting offer

    If you are not doing that then you are doing it wrong. Writing articles doesn't matter, backlinks doesn't matter, social media doesn't matter.

    Are you doing that? Or are you in the process of trying to figure that out?
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  • Profile picture of the author jpsween88
    I felt like that all the time, until I stopped and worked on one thing at a time. There are so many different ways to make a living online and everyone wants to pitch their idea to you. My biggest success, is with clickbank. I promoted until I could hire someone to make my own site. Now I spend my time more efficiently on other things while the affiliates do the marketing for me
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    Please do not use your signature to promote affiliate/MLM programs

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  • Profile picture of the author Builder154
    Funny,

    I was just reading this article by Fraser Cain who runs Universe Today. I'd say he's massively successful, getting 100,000 search engine visitors a day. He also runs Keyword Strategy.

    https://www.keywordstrategy.org/1102...oose-keywords/

    And what does he says:

    "When you hear success stories, remember to think rationally. You’re probably hearing stories from lucky people. For an extreme example, think about winning the lottery. Lottery winners believe it’s extremely easy to win a jackpot. But go ahead and ask the millions of people who don’t win each week. This is known as confirmation bias."

    So after years and years of success and more traffic than most of us will ever see in our lives, a ton of experience with building traffic and so on, he agrees with two things I've been saying:

    1) Luck is very much involved and many of the people who do well and want to attribute it to doing something special and act like those not doing as well are somehow inferior or just not doing the right things are really just lucky and using confirmation bias

    2) He brings up the lottery. When I brought up the lottery, I was called a troll.

    So this guy has the same exact attitude and beliefs I do and is massively successful. But when I say my same beliefs I'm called "not thinking like a winner".
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Again, your comparing yourself to other people.

      Is this part of doing everything right, you mentioned lottery & someone else on the net mentioned the same word?

      Do your own thing, stop worrying how successful (or not) anyone else is.




      Originally Posted by Builder154 View Post

      Funny,

      I was just reading this article by Fraser Cain who runs Universe Today. I'd say he's massively successful, getting 100,000 search engine visitors a day. He also runs Keyword Strategy.

      https://www.keywordstrategy.org/1102/how-to-choose-keywords/

      And what does he says:

      "When you hear success stories, remember to think rationally. You’re probably hearing stories from lucky people. For an extreme example, think about winning the lottery. Lottery winners believe it’s extremely easy to win a jackpot. But go ahead and ask the millions of people who don’t win each week. This is known as confirmation bias."

      So after years and years of success and more traffic than most of us will ever see in our lives, a ton of experience with building traffic and so on, he agrees with two things I've been saying:

      1) Luck is very much involved and many of the people who do well and want to attribute it to doing something special and act like those not doing as well are somehow inferior or just not doing the right things are really just lucky and using confirmation bias

      2) He brings up the lottery. When I brought up the lottery, I was called a troll.

      So this guy has the same exact attitude and beliefs I do and is massively successful. But when I say my same beliefs I'm called "not thinking like a winner".
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      Hi
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  • Profile picture of the author brookman12
    There are a lot of money making offers that say you need to take action to make money. the truth with most of them is they know that the people who are buying them are after get rich quick schemes so they dont take action when they see they have to go through training videos etc. A lot of people dont even get round to using these kind of systems either. I've been part of Inner Circle training groups and they will teach you the same stuff for marketing like do solo ads, banner advertising, post in forums etc and get leads to a squeeze page. The funny thing is these gurus havent actually made money in another niche apart from make money online so a lot of its just like a pyramid system where they just keep attracting new people. I would like to see these people go into other niches and try and make money.
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    If you're are a complete newbie and want to learn how to make a six figure income from someone who has spent $1000's on mentoring from the some of the best people around like Alex Jeffreys check out my blog at www.paul-brookman.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Builder154
      Originally Posted by brookman12 View Post

      There are a lot of money making offers that say you need to take action to make money. the truth with most of them is they know that the people who are buying them are after get rich quick schemes so they dont take action when they see they have to go through training videos etc. A lot of people dont even get round to using these kind of systems either. I've been part of Inner Circle training groups and they will teach you the same stuff for marketing like do solo ads, banner advertising, post in forums etc and get leads to a squeeze page. The funny thing is these gurus havent actually made money in another niche apart from make money online so a lot of its just like a pyramid system where they just keep attracting new people. I would like to see these people go into other niches and try and make money.
      Does that describe the offer in your signature?
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  • Profile picture of the author prismkuet
    If you don't know the proper way, every time your effort will bring the same failure. So, is not it better to spend few times and money to learn the proper way than trying the same thing again and again? Find out the exact way, focus your try on that point, set strategy, give effort to reach the target. Only than, you will get the success.
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    check out the Pros and Cons of CPA

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  • Profile picture of the author Will Golding
    Let’s assume that 2 people were marketing the same products with the same knowledge base, marketing tools, motivation and effort.

    What would make one marketer more successful than the other?
    My answer to that would be his CONTACTS!

    My advise is to start going to some of the seminars, meet the top guns in the business, buy them a beer and befriend them! I believe that If you do that, you will eventually get noticed, you will make a name for yourself and you will see how your "luck" changes.

    Think about it, who was Tristan Bull, Alex Jeffreys or Kenster just three years ago?

    They were you and they were me…struggling at IM until they figured it out, made contacts and became who they are today!

    Who will rise to the top 3 years from now? It will be you and If you think otherwise you have already lost the battle before it has even begun.

    Making a ton of money in IM is not easy and never will be. The competition is crazy.

    There will always be those 3% ers in every aspect of life that are raking in millions. But you know what, you don't necessarily have to be the Lebron James of IM. You can be the role players who still make a hell of a living! Besides we LOVE THIS!!!!



    Just my 2 cents worth.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rafay Zafar
    I dont get the point of this thread. Truth is that failure is part of life and most people in any field will fail irrespective of how hard they try, or ho much luck they have (remember that lottery winner collecting food stamps). If nobody fails, everybody succeeds which is impossible. Hard work doesnt guarantee success, it only improves your chances of achieving success. By trying hard you at least give yourself a chance of succeeding (how small it maybe). If you dont try at all, you have zero chance of succeeding - you have already failed.
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  • Profile picture of the author Builder154
    I'm finding this thread fascinating in seeing the lengths people will go to to avoid a simple question. I will once again ask it and see if people are able to focus on it or continue diving all around not to answer it.

    Different fields have different levels of luck involved. It takes more luck and there is a wider disparity of success in certain fields like the recording industry and less luck and little bit flatter playing field in other careers like, say, being a teacher or a plumber.

    Where does IM lie in this spectrum? Is IM more the type of thing like sports or music where a few huge stars make 90% of the money and most people will never make a living at it no matter how talented or hard they try? Or is it more like teaching or plumbing where most people, if they want to, can find a way to make a living at it and not a lot of luck is involved, you pretty much do the work to a basic level and you'll get by?

    Yes a little bit of luck is involved in everything in life. But some areas require far more luck than others.

    Where does IM fall on this spectrum? Stop dodging the question please.
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