Ranking For the Next Two Years - Dodging the update bullets Like A SEO Ninja- Whats Next?

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  • SEO
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Was kind of curious as to what people think

This year we saw a bunch of things that Google went after. Spammy links, Popular Rental Networks (although ton loads still exist and work there is unlikely to be any as promoted as BMR was) , some kinds of content and last EMDs.

Got to notice the trend - basically anything IMers are pushing or using enmasse.

So whats your take? Whats next. For those who see the trends it can be important because if you figure it out now you won't be screaming in another few months or weeks. Heres my two guesses

A) tiered link building - Google doesn't need to check backlinks with a backlink checker. the data on every sites link profile is sitting on their drives in databases. Limiting the ability of any site (regardless of tier) that is being hit by mass spam links to pass on authority and/or PR would kill most tiered link building especially people using tools like SEnukeXcr, Magic submitter, UD etc. who rely on blasting links at their tiers

B) this is going to be difficult but I think at some point Google will want to go after the High PR Domain aftermarket. There are couple easy ways of doing it that I don't even want to say publicly on the small chance they get ideas from the net. They won't be able to deliver a death blow because Mozrank is out there and they can't control that but they can make life a little more tedious (if SEomoz decided to mirror the changes Google made then it could be even bigger trouble). The bigger long term problem for them would be how they avoid crawling and giving back credit to domains they took away. Nightmare to try and program an algo/crawler that doesn't as links across the internet are recrawled.

I'm making a renewed push to get what I want now because whatever you get before they change anything will stick. They can't go retroactively. Domain market will never go away but it could just be a little harder to navigate.

SO those are my two. What do you think is next to be targeted?
#bullets #dodging #ranking #update #years
  • Profile picture of the author Nelapsi
    I have often wondered when Google was going to wake up one day and put a funnel on newly created content being used to flow link juice to a desired site.

    Like you I do foresee at some point them cleaning up expired high PR domains.
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  • Profile picture of the author jxam69
    I think the search engines will get better at detecting false social proof signals - to that end I don't get involved in bookmarking schemes. Do people really think that having more links on small bookmarking sites than you do on the major social services like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter etc. looks natural in any sense?

    I also think they will get better at judging whether or not a link was 'editorially placed/approved' rather than being put there by the site the link points to. In particular I think paid directory links will get hit hard - I'm including the Yahoo directory in this prediction.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by jxam69 View Post

      I also think they will get better at judging whether or not a link was 'editorially placed/approved' rather than being put there by the site the link points to. In particular I think paid directory links will get hit hard - I'm including the Yahoo directory in this prediction.
      That one I don't see happening. Google loves directories that are subject to human editorial moderation from established sites like Yahoo and Dmoz
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      • Profile picture of the author jxam69
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        That one I don't see happening. Google loves directories that are subject to human editorial moderation from established sites like Yahoo and Dmoz
        I agree that Dmoz contains editorially placed links - but I don't think the Yahoo directory does (excepting the links that were there before Yahoo starting charging - all my Yahoo links fit into this category) despite that being what they purport to sell - in reality they're just selling links and I don't believe their standards are very high.

        BTW - the idea of the search engines getting better at determining which links were placed editorially is one that I'll stand by independently of the directory part of the prediction - for example on some sites where the comments are editorially approved and standards are high the links will have greater weight assigned to them.

        Of course my crystal ball might be malfunctioning
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  • Profile picture of the author retsek
    I think basically anything that is being openly abused and overused is on the table. That includes:

    - poorly executed guest posting that borders on plain old article directories and blog networks
    - infocraphics ...which Cutts alluded to doing something about in an interview a few months ago.

    They have the resources to do it and clearly they aren't jumpy about collateral damage in this war.
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  • Bit by bit all white hat SEO will be Black Hat and we will all be buying ads from Google to get any traffic. At least that is the ideal scenario G wants to see in the future. By outlawing and downgrading millions of sites it is displaying "whatever remains" and in most cases what remains is crap. It is no surprise that just a year ago 95% to 98% of traffic to my sites originated from Google now the share has dropped to 80%. People are starting to use other search engines more and more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Toyota Hilux Dealer View Post

      Bit by bit all white hat SEO will be Black Hat and we will all be buying ads from Google to get any traffic. At least that is the ideal scenario G wants to see in the future. By outlawing and downgrading millions of sites it is displaying "whatever remains" and in most cases what remains is crap. It is no surprise that just a year ago 95% to 98% of traffic to my sites originated from Google now the share has dropped to 80%. People are starting to use other search engines more and more.
      Percentage of people visiting your site from Google has nothing to do with People in general starting to use other search engines. Thats probably just a reflection of your lower positioning on Google (I have yet to see anyone complain about the quality of Google who is ranking). There have been no recent huge gains by Bingo, Blekko or anyone else.

      Anyway please do not make this into one of those I hate Google everything is black hat to them threads. A lot of us are just tired of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author retsek
      Originally Posted by Toyota Hilux Dealer View Post

      Bit by bit all white hat SEO will be Black Hat and we will all be buying ads from Google to get any traffic. At least that is the ideal scenario G wants to see in the future. By outlawing and downgrading millions of sites it is displaying "whatever remains" and in most cases what remains is crap. It is no surprise that just a year ago 95% to 98% of traffic to my sites originated from Google now the share has dropped to 80%. People are starting to use other search engines more and more.
      Just look at your sig ...you wouldn't know whitehat if it hit you in the face.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    You can pretty easily see these things coming. All you have to do is pay attention to the latest buzz words on forums like this.

    Link wheels - raped
    Forum profile links - toast
    Private blog networks - nuked

    Next... Tiered linking.

    It may not be next actually, but to think it is not a target down the road is crazy. To me, it's the next logical step for Penguin. Penguin assblasted sites using spammy links. No reason to think down the road they cannot look at the links pointing at links and do the same thing.

    EDIT: Almost forgot... EMD's... you see a trend yet?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      It may not be next actually, but to think it is not a target down the road is crazy. To me, it's the next logical step for Penguin. Penguin assblasted sites using spammy links. No reason to think down the road they cannot look at the links pointing at links and do the same thing.
      I think what is fooling a lot of people Mike is that they are thinking of it like an outsider to Google. In order to check backlinks we have to run spyglass and check them. Google already has that data - every single link they count is sitting in some form or can be deduced from data in a disk somewhere. It can be as simple as a PR to link ratio thats just exorbitant and totally unnatural and the algo deducts for juice being passed through that domain like a nofollow.


      bye bye tiered linking.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheFBGuy
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      You can pretty easily see these things coming. All you have to do is pay attention to the latest buzz words on forums like this.

      Link wheels - raped
      Forum profile links - toast
      Public blog networks - nuked
      Fixed...
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    • Profile picture of the author JawadAshraf
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      EMD's... you see a trend yet?
      EMD's are not going anywhere, was working, are working and will be working forever. I can BET and PROVE that. I can see, right now there are two high competitive niche keywords with EMD's are on the 1st page of Google. And to my surprise when I checked few days later, they were ranking even more higher and still they are.

      Google want you to be confuse as much as possible, simple and clear. Oh and they are successful doing this as well.

      Cheers!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by JawadAshraf View Post

        Google want you to be confuse as much as possible, simple and clear. Oh and they are successful doing this as well.

        Cheers!
        So all the people who lost their ENDS are just confused? Okay..... rock on.
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        • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          So all the people who lost their ENDS are just confused? Okay..... rock on.
          From the sites I looked at, the 'EMD Owners' were confused about a lot of things. They really HAMMERED HOME their ANCHOR TEXT.

          ANCHORTEXTDOMAIN.COM

          88% density of links that said Anchor TEXT in them.

          What could they expect? One 'afflicted site' I saw had 14,988 dollow links and 4 nofollow links. Unnatural link building to the extreme.

          There are still plenty of EMDs ranking, many of them low quality. They just did a better job of link building. They mixed up anchors and sources, some established social profiles. It still ain't rocket science
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    1. Tiered linking will be killed.

    2. "safe" blog networks using re-purposed high PR domains (like most people are building now) will be nuked. It's pretty easy to filter out re-purposed high PR domains, they just haven't done it yet. I guess it's not their priority at the moment, but it'll be a little like Panda/Penguin where they push out an update and bye-bye. The best thing about this is that if you fix your shit, the domain can regain value after a data refresh, so that doesn't interfere with anything really.

    In other words: they can re-crawl the links all they want (without issues), as long as your domains are on their "shit list", you're screwed. If the algo determines that it's legit again == remove from shit list. It's really like any other filter-like update they've done... This isn't that far away.

    Tons more, I guess.

    edit: the only problem with tiered-link is exponential growth in complexity. This could actually come after the high PR domain filter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      2. "safe" blog networks using re-purposed high PR domains (like most people are building now) will be nuked. It's pretty easy to filter out re-purposed high PR domains, they just haven't done it yet. I guess it's not their priority at the moment, but it'll be a little like Panda/Penguin where they push out an update and bye-bye.
      Nope. Not that easy unless your site has content footprints. You are forgetting that domains lapse all the time and are picked up by other companies/people for TOTALLY legit reasons. Names get reregistered by different parties all the time and it has nothing to do with networks. You can't just nuke all domains that ever expire. You would end up in a few years nuking most domains in use.

      So yeah networks that look like networks will go because of the footprint but to kill networks completely is not as simple as you just indicated. In fact its impossible. Its like saying Google will one day get rid of paid links. It aint happening because there is no algo outside of ones that have satellites in the sky and bugs in every room in the world that can determine what transaction caused the link to be placed.

      What I more see is Google saying your domain hasn't been operational for 20-30 days - bye bye PR but yeah it would be a pain for recrawl because unlike what you just said they can't just deindex or punish every site that has expired or ever been in the redemption period. Frankly even the PR dump won't work totally unless they get Mozrank to go along (if not the market just switches to that.)

      But can they make things a lot more difficult? Yep - thats why for all those saying I am going to do this or that in the future - its only going to get harder the later in the game it gets.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Nope. Not that easy unless your site has content footprints.
        Most networks have content footprints. Remember I said "re-purposed" domains.

        Complexity of adding a WHOLE link tier into algorithmic analysis is FAR higher than building a Panda type filter that scans over these high PR domains.

        I never said any of those other things you're rambling about, paid links all that stuff...

        because unlike what you just said they can't just deindex or punish every site that has expired or ever been in the redemption period
        Never said that. You're really, really, realllyyyy bad at this.

        Good idea for a thread though.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          Most networks have content footprints. Remember I said "re-purposed" domains.
          Yeah you see thats where you went wrong - by specifying the domain itself. Its the content on them so if the content has no footprints then Google can't just toast all repurposed domains. A domain is repurposed ANYTIME anyone buys it and it was registered before. For google to go after repurposed domains would be unworkable hence the difficulties I mentioned.

          Complexity of adding a WHOLE link tier into algorithmic analysis is FAR higher than building a Panda type filter that scans over these high PR domains.
          Sorry but there is no adding of a whole link tier involved at getting at tiered linking. Like I said to MIke people just think from the outside something would have to be added - the data of every site regardless of tier is already there

          Never said that. You're really, really, realllyyyy bad at this.
          Or you are really really, realyyy bad at choosing your words. Say poorly constructed networks sites would be easily targeted not domains. I was actually giving your idea the best position I could because again unless the domains themselves are targeted then theres no way any algo can do away with them - just the badly built ones. You would have to be assuming that they are only built one way that could be detected by content.

          At any rate whatever you choose to believe its still nowhere near as easy as you think it is. Incidentally I never said you brought up paid links. I included it because whether you recognize it or not they are related. Paying for links comes in those forms - buying entire domains or buying links
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Sorry but there is no adding of a whole link tier involved at getting at tiered linking. Like I said to MIke people just think from the outside something would have to be added - the data of every site regardless of tier is already there
            It doesn't matter that the data is there. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Analyzing data requires search, which is complex. It's one of the biggest growth areas right now - every industry has tons of data. Working with that data is not as simple as you think.

            You don't understand the first thing about the topic, but you will continue to argue no matter what I say. So I won't bother.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              It doesn't matter that the data is there. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Analyzing data requires search, which is complex..........You don't understand the first thing about the topic, but you will continue to argue no matter what I say. So I won't bother.
              Yes of course - querying data (its not called search in programming) in a database is a very complex matter for the hundreds of engineers at Google. :rolleyes:

              and surprise - I DO have programming knowledge. Its nowhere as hard as you make it out to be for a page to have its incoming links counted against their overall PR. Takes some work of course but nothing that keeps Google engineers up at night trying to break the mystery of .
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              • Profile picture of the author nik0
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Yes of course - querying data (its not called search in programming) in a database is a very complex matter for the hundreds of engineers at Google. :rolleyes:

                and surprise - I DO have programming knowledge. Its nowhere as hard as you make it out to be for a page to have its incoming links counted against their overall PR. Takes some work of course but nothing that keep Google engineers up at night trying to break the mystery of .
                Imo it has all to do with cpu power. If it was so easy they would have done it already. Right now they are researching a new type of CPU that would be 200-300x faster then the current fastest one. Once that one is a fact then we should get real scared (or at least the tier spammers).
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                  Imo it has all to do with cpu power. If it was so easy they would have done it already. Right now they are researching a new type of CPU that would be 200-300x faster then the current fastest one. Once that one is a fact then we should get real scared (or at least the tier spammers).
                  Yes no doubt load is always an issue . I was more talking about from how to do it from a programming angle. I can't see google saying oh this is going to be hard just what the impact it would have on resources.

                  BTW you are a brave man I wouldn't trust any broker to just double check through Explorer. I don't check every link but I will fire up spyglass for any high Pr domain.
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                  • Profile picture of the author nik0
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                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Yes no doubt load is always an issue . I was more talking about from how to do it from a programming angle. I can't see google saying oh this is going to be hard just what the impact it would have on resources.

                    BTW you are a brave man I wouldn't trust any broker to just double check through Explorer. I don't check every link but I will fire up spyglass for any high Pr domain.
                    When DA/PA are in line with Citation & Trust Flow then it gives a very reliable view. Little example

                    PR3
                    PA 30
                    DA 25
                    Citation Flow 15
                    Trust Flow 18

                    Always good.

                    Example of a poor one:

                    PR3
                    PA40
                    DA30
                    Citation Flow 12
                    Trust Flow 7

                    I would never buy that, mostly a profile of spammy links that boosted up the PA.

                    Other example of a bad one:

                    PR3
                    DA8
                    PA15
                    Citation Flow 8
                    Trust Flow 22

                    Means the Trust Flow metric is outdated, Majestic is terrible slow with updating the data when it lost a few strong links and thus the DA/PA tells the truth here.

                    When it's all balanced then it's all good.

                    And my broker is pretty reliable, he ain't faking stuff, sometimes he does buy some poor ones though but I recognize that soon enough.

                    You know spyglass is so freaking slow, often I have to buy like 20-50 domains in one go, I really can't wait for that, so that's why I always cross check seomoz and majestic. I never rely on just 1 of them.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      I'll never go by metrics. I have to see what I am getting and since with aged domains its really about the the links thats what I recommend people looking at. I can't think of any situation I have been in where I had to buy 20 domains at once in a rush. auctions always run for a few days at least and names coming up can bee seen way in advance.

                      Maybe because you are going through a broker and you think someone else might get them ahead of you. Its not like that when you are getting them from the source. As for Spyglass. I have a script on a VPS that starts it up reads the list off and runs the check. Can go all night and in the morning I can look everything over 50-100 at a time. No sweat.
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                      • Profile picture of the author nik0
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                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                        I'll never go by metrics. I have to see what I am getting and since with aged domains its really about the the links thats what I recommend people looking at. I can't think of any situation I have been in where I had to buy 20 domains at once in a rush. auctions always run for a few days at least and names coming up can bee seen way in advance.

                        Maybe because you are going through a broker and you think someone else might get them ahead of you. Its not like that when you are getting them from the source. As for Spyglass. I have a script on a VPS that starts it up reads the list off and runs the check. Can go all night and in the morning I can look everything over 50-100 at a time. No sweat.
                        People can get them ahead of me but sometimes I also need a whole bulk of them, last week I had an impulsive idea of adding tier 2 blog posts to my services so I bought 50 PR3's and 20 PR4's all in one go. That kind of takes ages when you have to check every single back link. A reliable broker is definitely a must (EDIT: for me) and normally pretty hard to find.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                          Nik to each's own. Takes me a night with spyglass. We are kind of way off topic You do find a way of in every thread you are in making reference to your services and specifics of your network. Such to the point as I have said elsewhere it just comes across as smoke blowing.

                          You are the only network owner (and I know tons of them) that claims to do things so impetuously. If I even believed it it would be a dangerous way to do business and I certainly wouldn't want anyone building a network to think they should do it that way. I certainly would not want them to think that a broker is a must. It most certainly is not. If you make proper business decisions, plan ahead wiegh thigs rationally before doing them there is no reason to have to need to make quick decisions and purchases.

                          but like i said to each his own I just don't want anybody thinking about diving in to think thats a good way to go about it
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                          • Profile picture of the author nik0
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                            You do find a way of in every thread you are in making reference to your services and specifics of your network. Such to the point as I have said elsewhere it just comes across as smoke blowing.
                            Bladiebladieblah
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                    • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                      Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                      You know spyglass is so freaking slow,
                      Out of the box, yes. If you tweak its settings though it can run much faster. I can usually analyze 1200-1500 backlinks in about 3 minutes.

                      What sucks about OSE and Majestic is they are not updated enough. I love that SpyGlass tells me if the links are still present. I've seen some domains that look outstanding in OSE. I import those links into SpyGlass only to find 75% of them have disappeared.
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                      • Profile picture of the author nik0
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                        Out of the box, yes. If you tweak its settings though it can run much faster. I can usually analyze 1200-1500 backlinks in about 3 minutes.

                        What sucks about OSE and Majestic is they are not updated enough. I love that SpyGlass tells me if the links are still present. I've seen some domains that look outstanding in OSE. I import those links into SpyGlass only to find 75% of them have disappeared.
                        Yeah I agree, OSE and Majestic have a lot of delay.

                        One of my tricks is to buy most domains right after a Google PR update though, then I am ensured that it's very up to date.

                        I should dive more into Spyglass as it's the only tool that also shows the PR of the links, makes it a lot easier then running it through Scrapebox each time.
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                        • Profile picture of the author scottmacair
                          Personally I prefer Ahrefs. Seems to be more up to date than majestic and OSE and it doesn't need any tweeking.

                          Scott
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                        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                          One of my tricks is to buy most domains right after a Google PR update though, then I am ensured that it's very up to date.
                          Yeah, but even after an update, that PR can be 2-3 months behind the actual PR. I agree though. Right after an update is about as close to accurate as you can get.

                          I do the opposite. I like waiting a few months after a PR update and looking for bargains that I can predict are going to jump in the upcoming update. Get a PR 3 for the price of a PR 2. Or a PR 4 for the price of a PR 3, etc.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                            I do the opposite. I like waiting a few months after a PR update and looking for bargains that I can predict are going to jump in the upcoming update. Get a PR 3 for the price of a PR 2. Or a PR 4 for the price of a PR 3, etc.
                            I do this, but it's a ton of work to shift through hundreds of potential targets... even using registercompass and other filters. Any tips to speed this up a bit?
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                            • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                              I do this, but it's a ton of work to shift through hundreds of potential targets... even using registercompass and other filters. Any tips to speed this up a bit?
                              Well, I'm not buying hundreds of domains like some other people.

                              I just buy a few here and there. I am not servicing hundreds of clients. I think I am under 25 right now, but they are mostly bigger paying clients.

                              I use expireddomains.net. I generally sort by backlinks. I skip all the domains that are already ridiculously priced.

                              I'll feed domains that look interesting into OSE to make sure there are no 301 redirects going on. I'll also take a look at the DA. If it is a PR 3 with a DA of 11 or something like that, I throw it out and don't bother investigating any further.

                              Then I run the domain through SpyGlass. On the odd occasion where I feel like SpyGlass is not giving me enough backlinks, I'll also import the links from OSE into SpyGlass and analyze those as well.

                              For the most part I'm getting mine from Go Daddy auctions. The ones I like, I put on my watch list, and put a reminder into Outlook for when the auction will be in its last hour. Then I just check up on it and see where the price went. If it is looking fairly reasonable, I'll jump in.

                              I'll look through the TDNAM list as well, but it is far more rare to find anything good there above a PR 2. And if you do, it is probably already swiped up. When I started, I got most of my domains there though because you could get them cheaper.

                              There is also a special membership you can sign up for at Go Daddy. I forget what they call it. It is about $100/yr. You automatically get their best deal on domains, which is usually about 33% off or more. I've also been getting my WhoIs Privacy for about $5.99/yr. If you buy and renew a decent amount of domains through them, the $100 more than pays for itself.

                              I don't have any rapid process for buying a huge number of high PR domains in bulk.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                                There is also a special membership you can sign up for at NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-. I forget what they call it. It is about $100/yr. You automatically get their best deal on domains, which is usually about 33% off or more. I've also been getting my WhoIs Privacy for about $5.99/yr. If you buy and renew a decent amount of domains through them, the $100 more than pays for itself.

                                I don't have any rapid process for buying a huge number of high PR domains in bulk.
                                Alright I am not too embarassed to say I am lost. Is that NO-NO-NO a mod edit or an auto correction/ banned word or a code for you really top level SEOs? .

                                Drop me a PM Mike I mean if its not top secret like NIk's Thailand domain buyer :p
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                                • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                  Alright I am not too embarassed to say I am lost. Is that NO-NO-NO a mod edit or an auto correction/ banned word or a code for you really top level SEOs? .

                                  Drop me a PM Mike I mean if its not top secret like NIk's Thailand domain buyer :p
                                  I fixed it. It was Go Daddy, but for some reason I guess that is banned around here? :confused:
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                                    Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                                    I fixed it. It was Go Daddy, but for some reason I guess that is banned around here? :confused:
                                    Yeah they've added a whole bunch of "bad" words to auto-filter recently.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                    Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                                    I fixed it. It was Go Daddy, but for some reason I guess that is banned around here? :confused:
                                    ahh yeah that is strange. Shucks I thought I was about to learn about some new marketplace for domains. Yeah I saw that Club they have but being NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO- (edit -oops there it is again)I figured it would be a rip. Not bad if you don't buy too much but truth is I get coupon codes every week already and they are mostly 30% off.

                                    Wish namecheap (No bad word filter) would do something with their auctions but its mostly junk
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                          • Profile picture of the author nik0
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                            I do the opposite. I like waiting a few months after a PR update and looking for bargains that I can predict are going to jump in the upcoming update. Get a PR 3 for the price of a PR 2. Or a PR 4 for the price of a PR 3, etc.
                            Pretty smart, but yeah you need a good system for that cause time is also money. That's actually the whole reason why I prefer to use a broker. Lack of a good system.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                              Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                              Pretty smart, but yeah you need a good system for that cause time is also money. That's actually the whole reason why I prefer to use a broker. Lack of a good system.
                              Hey if using a broker works well for you - sweet. Time is, of course, money and some things simply aren't worth spending time on. Buying PR5's or PR6's is obviously a lot different than getting a bunch of PR3's.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                            I should dive more into Spyglass as it's the only tool that also shows the PR of the links, makes it a lot easier then running it through Scrapebox each time.
                            NIk I don't know if you know but you can load up several domains at a time into Spyglass. Like I said with a little script I can check a pule over night while I sleep or on a VPS.


                            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                            Yeah, but even after an update, that PR can be 2-3 months behind the actual PR.
                            I learned that the hard way earlier this year. Promised some PR3s in 4 months and the links were there for domains to turn into PR3s on the tool bar and nada happened. Thats why I no longer offer any for less than 6 months to go through two updates. Plus I have the suspicion depending on how they are crawled they can still not be up to date after two as well. I don;t think Google anymore gives a rip about keeping that data accurate


                            I do the opposite. I like waiting a few months after a PR update and looking for bargains that I can predict are going to jump in the upcoming update. Get a PR 3 for the price of a PR 2. Or a PR 4 for the price of a PR 3, etc.
                            If only Mozrank would update like clock work a couple weeks before updates eh? That would be a real clue but then Moz can be so way off from PR

                            SO this is now buy aged domains with High PR thread? I aint complaining mind you
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                            • Profile picture of the author nik0
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                              NIk I don't know if you know but you can load up several domains at a time into Spyglass. Like I said with a little script I can check a pule over night while I sleep or on a VPS.
                              How about you share that script?
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                              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                                How about you share that script?
                                How bout you share your magical broker?
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                                • Profile picture of the author nik0
                                  Banned
                                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                                  How bout you share your magical broker?
                                  Uhh no thanks?

                                  Yeah you got me there :p
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Yes no doubt load is always an issue . I was more talking about from how to do it from a programming angle. I can't see google saying oh this is going to be hard just what the impact it would have on resources.
                    You may have some coding knowledge, but you are no programmer. It's OK to not understand, just stop pretending man. You have no idea what you are talking about... and yes it is called search. "in programming it isn't called search" rofl that's the most absurd thing you could have said. Every algorithm is based on search in some way - every single one - but you couldn't formulate a proper search problem for this topic (tiered links/layers) to save your life so don't argue where you're clueless. Sometimes it's better to stay quiet, your bro science makes you look silly.

                    BTW you are a brave man I wouldn't trust any broker to just double check through Explorer. I don't check every link but I will fire up spyglass for any high Pr domain.
                    Agreed.
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                    • Profile picture of the author nik0
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                      Agreed.
                      That's cause you guys use crappy brokers from DP.

                      Bunch of stupid noobs! :p


                      Btw for my PR4+ ones I do a little more research where I check the back links manually and all cause they are quite costly, but for PR3 ones that are mostly used in my tier 2 network I bother a bit less and criss-cross check the metrics to see if all is at the same line. And as said >95% keeps the PR after the first update so it all works out fine. I think I have one of the best brokers that is out there.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                      You may have some coding knowledge, but you are no programmer. It's OK to not understand, just stop pretending man. You have no idea what you are talking about... and yes it is called search. "in programming it isn't called search" rofl that's the most absurd thing you could have said. Every algorithm is based on search in some way
                      SO silly. May the Lord spare us from the kiddies on here. A query is how a database is accessed. There is no debate about it. The crawler stores information into a database and it is accessed on a programming level through a query . Here get a clue

                      How to Build a Search Engine - Quixey Blog

                      This is so basic in Database work that protocols are named with the term eg SQL (Structured Query Language.). SO on the level of programming the thing you hear programmers talk about is querying the database/database queries not searching the database.

                      Sheesh :rolleyes:
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                        SO silly. May the Lord spare us from the kiddies on here. A query is how a database is accessed. There is no debate about it. The crawler stores information into a database and it is accessed on a programming level through a query . Here get a clue

                        How to Build a Search Engine - Quixey Blog

                        This is so basic in Database work that protocols are named with the term eg SQL (Structured Query Language.). SO on the level of programming the thing you hear programmers talk about is querying the database/database queries not searching the database.

                        Sheesh :rolleyes:
                        Man you just don't get it. :rolleyes:

                        Keep going, it's hilarious! No amount of Googling is going to give you proper education in CS. You just can't lose (at least in your own head) an argument, no matter how stupid it makes you look.

                        One word - woah.
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                      • Profile picture of the author danparks
                        Mike Anthony is correct on this one. Software Engineer with 20+ years programming experience, including much SQL database programming here. Yes, we occasionally use the word "search" but that's when talking to a client about adding a search box to his app/website. At the programming level, we use "query." To write code that will end up being used for a search, we're doing queries on the data in the database.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                          Originally Posted by danparks View Post

                          Mike Anthony is correct on this one. Software Engineer with 20+ years programming experience, including much SQL database programming here. Yes, we occasionally use the word "search" but that's when talking to a client about adding a search box to his app/website. At the programming level, we use "query." To write code that will end up being used for a search, we're doing queries on the data in the database.
                          What about search algorithms used to determine relationships between variables? What about complex systems (such as Page Rank or the whole concept of a link graph)?

                          Ever heard of pattern recognition? Anomaly detection? What's the complexity: search space, time complexity etc of a connected link graph when looking for suspicious patterns? How do you think that's accomplished? Writing database queries? Give me a break, please...

                          How do you think filters are built (such as Penguin)? By writing db calls and marking sites? You do realize that the search index is one of the largest big data sets in the world right now? They do cutting edge shit at Google to find associations and patterns within their index.

                          You guys don't have the first clue what you're talking about.

                          edit: you can learn the very basics reading through these:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_theory
                          http://datamining.dongguk.ac.kr/graph/p266-white.pdf

                          Though that's only just scratching the surface of it.
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                          • Profile picture of the author danparks
                            Of course "search" is used in a higher sense, because that's the goal of some algorithms and some applications. And collectively one could group algoritms into an API and call it a "search API" or "search library." For instance, one search library is divided into the following: TermQuery (match docs containing a Term), PhraseQuery (match docs w/sequence of Terms), BooleanQuery (match docs matching other queries), and so forth. It's about queries, and the underlying math to devise those queries. Guess it's not really that big of a deal, but you did seem to imply that someone who, from a programming perspective, puts the emphasis on "query" rather than "search" is completely clueless, which obviously isn't the case.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                              Originally Posted by danparks View Post

                              Of course "search" is used in a higher sense, because that's the goal of some algorithms and some applications. And collectively one could group algoritms into an API and call it a "search API" or "search library." For instance, one search library is divided into the following: TermQuery (match docs containing a Term), PhraseQuery (match docs w/sequence of Terms), BooleanQuery (match docs matching other queries), and so forth. It's about queries, and the underlying math to devise those queries. Guess it's not really that big of a deal, but you did seem to imply that someone who, from a programming perspective, puts the emphasis on "query" rather than "search" is completely clueless, which obviously isn't the case.
                              In the end it doesn't really matter what term you use, I suppose. But that wasn't my issue with Mike's argument...

                              A search in the context of algorithmic analysis has nothing to do with databases. Most coders have no knowledge of the inner workings of algorithms or theoretical computer science, and that's perfectly fine. I have a problem with random know-it-alls who dumb down extremely complex problems/arguments to high-school level ideas and then use those ideas to troll forums.

                              Determining clusters of nodes/edges that have "suspicious relationships" (second tier links) in a link graph as big as the entire search index is a ridiculously complex task, and him implying that it's all just "simple database queries" is pretty... well, I don't even know.

                              edit: I'm starting to sound like a rabid chipmunk, lol. No offense meant to anyone here.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                                Originally Posted by danparks View Post

                                Mike Anthony is correct on this one. Software Engineer with 20+ years programming experience, including much SQL database programming here. Yes, we occasionally use the word "search" but that's when talking to a client about adding a search box to his app/website. At the programming level, we use "query." To write code that will end up being used for a search, we're doing queries on the data in the database.
                                As you can see Dan the kiddies don't want to learn. They argue even the most obvious points and then claim its you that don't know what you are talking about even when you have 20 years in programming and they are most likely still in high school or first year college. Its hilarious though

                                Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

                                A search in the context of algorithmic analysis has nothing to do with databases.
                                Now thats just silly . Sorry but just REAL silliness. The algo works on data retrieved from databases to say it has nothing to do with it is just making a fool of yourself. Perhaps you really should go and read something on it. I can't help but make you think I am a know it all when you don't know what you are talking about

                                Determining clusters of nodes/edges that have "suspicious relationships" (second tier links) in a link graph as big as the entire search index is a ridiculously complex task, and him implying that it's all just "simple database queries" is pretty... well, I don't even know.
                                Sorry but your silliness knows no end (and your honesty is suspect. You put "simple database query" in quotes but I can't seem to find me using that quote at all anywhere) . I specifically noted that Google has hundreds of programmers so the simplicity there was not that you could just pop your finger and it would happen but that to hundreds of Google's engineers it would not be a complex issue. Man power and work but thats the case with any global Search engine. Caught with the facts not on your side You are just trying to invent strawmen.

                                furthermore you demonstrate how incredible obtuse you are to the entire argument. THERE IS NO "SUSPICIOUS RELATIONSHIP" needed to be analyzed. It has nothing to do with one nodes relationship to another or "second tier". You are totally lost. It has to do with the links coming into ANY site on its own and devaluing the ability of THAT site to pass on Pagerank juice. The relationship ends there. Finito.

                                Google already has the data of links coming into just about any site. The algo already punishes sites with those links. The only layer needed to be added is to make those same sites targeted by the algo incapable of passing on any juice and its game over. Tiered linking wouldn't work not because there is any detailed analysis of suspicious relationships but because the sites pass on no juice who utilize link spam.

                                In short get a clue about what is being discussed and stop trying to be the real know it all because now not only are you trying to correct people with far more programming experience than you - you don't even understand the programming task that was being talked about to begin with.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Basically, when you find something that works... Don't turn it into a service to sell to the masses. That's when Google starts targeting it.

    So if you find something working well for you... STFU!
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  • Profile picture of the author nik0
    Banned
    What does Mozrank has to do with Google?
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    • Profile picture of the author retsek
      Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

      What does Mozrank has to do with Google?
      I think he means if they stop providing the public Page Rank service, there's still MozRank which the domain market can use. They really have no reason to continue making it available.
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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Originally Posted by retsek View Post

        I think he means if they stop providing the public Page Rank service, there's still MozRank which the domain market can use. They really have no reason to continue making it available.
        Ah okay, I thought he meant with dumping the PR to devalue the PR, so in that case Mozrank can show whatever they want but it won't make a change.

        If Google stops providing PR there are so many other stats anyway, mozrank / DA / PA / Majestics Trust & Citation Flow / Ahrefs etc.

        I could easily do without the PR metric.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

          If Google stops providing PR there are so many other stats anyway, mozrank / DA / PA / Majestics Trust & Citation Flow / Ahrefs etc.

          I could easily do without the PR metric.
          To be honest with you yes they could do to that which is why I said it wouldn't shut things down but it would make things harder because Rogerbot just doesn't cover as much of the net and neither does ahrefs so it would make things more difficult. You know you would have to change things up. When last have you bought a domain based on mozrank/Majestic Turst etc if it didn't agree with pagerank and paid the same price?
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          • Profile picture of the author nik0
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            To be honest with you yes they could do to that which is why I said it wouldn't shut things down but it would make things harder because Rogerbot just doesn't cover as much of the net and neither does ahrefs so it would make things more difficult. You know you would have to change things up. When last have you bought a domain based on mozrank/Majestic Turst etc if it didn't agree with pagerank and paid the same price?
            Well, if the Majestic and SEOmoz stats don't match with the PR then I don't buy it. For me those stats are another way to verify if the PR isn't faked up a bit.

            You know I use a private domain broker so he does most of the pre filtering, I just run it though Majestic and SEOmoz for a double check. I ain't gonna check each back link individually. So far he hasn't let me down, 95% of my sites survive the Google PR update and those other few often drop only 1 point.

            Although those back link check tools don't find every link they do find about 99% of the strong links (the ones that make the PR).
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

      What does Mozrank has to do with Google?
      See thats why all those people below you are angry and pumping their fists
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  • Profile picture of the author boxoun
    My 2 year plan is to try to be as profitable as I can leveraging private networks and reinvesting some profits into building a true authority in certain niches where I don't depend on search traffic. I too feel like they will get better at devaluing aged domains so the idea is too use it now as much as I can.

    I'm in 2 markets where I have long term goals that require training and education on my part to become a true authority.

    Those are the plans right now and will likely change with new information. Maybe I discover a product that I'm able to produce along the way that'll change my goals.
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  • Profile picture of the author boxoun
    Derailed already? I was interested in hearing people's plan?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by boxoun View Post

      Derailed already? I was interested in hearing people's plan?

      I think most peoples plans are to move forward with what we got. I plan on getting more domains. Few hundred more (not for any service just muah). Since it seems to be a consensus that tiered linking is gong down I can't think of what people will replace it with software wise.
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      • Profile picture of the author scottmacair
        Strategies / techniques i stay away from:

        Tiered link building. Just too dangerous. If / when Google address this it will be quite easy to filter this.

        Auto spun content - if the aglo doesn't evolve to catch this, it's just giving competitors all the ammunition they need to file a web spam complaint with Google.

        Web 2's with one or very few pages of content, not updated and linking to one domain.

        Just about everything being sold as a WSO.

        Private blog networks that post content (from the same domain) about 'car insurance' one day, 'how to make money online' the next day and 'how to lose weight' the third day.

        Essentially I try to make sure my links and properties are indistinguishable from natural properties and continually think 'if this profile comes under manual review will it pass?'

        Scott
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    Flexibility is what matters for the next two years. That, and an active and high SEO budget. There's no tactic that is 'evergreen.' In fact, with 2 algo updates a day for two years, that's 1,400+ changes to the current Google algo.

    SEO is active!
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  • Profile picture of the author superman1231
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author options
      Originally Posted by superman1231 View Post

      Google is just a mere algorithm and their are limits to the algorithm due to it being made by humans blah blah blah so link building can work if you out smart the google algorythem and make a link building system that is far to complex for google to even work out at all

      Also the whole internet is one big link building thing so if you can simply get your website lost in the mass of links and websites on the internet then google cannot do anything unless they turn off the internet.

      So like you said about google getting their ideas from the internet as i am sure they will look on seo forums as they are devious like that then i have a message for matt THE SPAM MAN OR ANY OTHER GOOGLE PERSON

      YOU LITTLE NERD! YOUR GREEDY MISSION TO WRECK ONLINE BUSINESSES SHALL FAIL AND YOU WILL JUST GO TO HELL.
      You tell um superman....
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    ha. If Smileys and saying something was hilarious made us smart we all would be. Found a nice link for you (not me) to understand the basics but like they say you can take a horse to the water but you can't make him drink.
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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Kyle
    Hi Mike.

    Interesting thread.

    If I were in Google's shoes and were seriously attempting to improve the 'user experience', I would look very closely at average time-on-site and bounce rates in Analytics tied to specific search queries.

    For example, if my site was about red widgets and Organic searchers for closely related terms to red widgets spent a healthy amount of time on my site and bounce rates were low, that is a reasonable metric for a positive user experience.

    While GA doesn't have ubiquitous deployment, Google has Chrome data to work with on a substantial user base and GWT as well.

    In theory, searchers arriving at my red widgets site for less related terms and bouncing off quickly shouldn't penalise the site's rankings.

    While the above shouldn't be the only metric of course and could possibly be gamed with bots eventually, it should be an important one.

    Google has always said that they don't use GA or GWT for Organic rankings calculations but would they care about any controversy if that policy was changed?

    The other area Google needs to seriously clean up is YouTube and they'll get to that at some point I suppose.

    On the expired PR domain issue, we aged domain seekers don't need to wait for them to expire before buying them either.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by Terry Kyle View Post

      On the expired PR domain issue, we aged domain seekers don't need to wait for them to expire before buying them either.
      Bigger SEO agencies (those with real offices and shit, lol) have been buying up established (but overlooked) websites in their client niches for a looong time now. That's what I started doing a few months ago... there are webmasters who let their sites/blogs go for as little as $100-$150 (PR2-PR3).

      Bought a very strong tech blog for $400 (PR3) this week - it's going to absolutely kill it after I send a few PR5 links to it. The guy used to post almost daily, but then got a full time job and just left it sitting there for about 2 years.

      So yep, all is good with SEO. It's definitely moving towards bigger $$$ budgets though, be it white hat or black hat.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Terry Kyle View Post

      While GA doesn't have ubiquitous deployment, Google has Chrome data to work with on a substantial user base and GWT as well.
      Good Point Terry plus they have some data they can pull from logged in users of Gmail



      On the expired PR domain issue, we aged domain seekers don't need to wait for them to expire before buying them either.
      Actually I should have been more precise and said expiring. I was more referring to the time the domain is off line as it goes through the redemption period. You can get them before that a swell but as you know the bulk of the domains in the market go through that phase.
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  • Profile picture of the author Texjd
    A few things that I've noticed is that any rule that Google puts into play has 5 more factors. On EMD hunt it's very clear that not only the EMD was checked but also keyword links/number of pages/link diversity and velocity/category/and bounce rate. And probably a few more that we can't even determine.

    Bounce rate is BS. The whole point of providing good and accurate content is to provide quick answers. So if you do your job well at providing the content that the user is looking for he's gone in 60 seconds. So if your content is really good, the user finds it and is gone. And if the content is very bad, the user is gone.

    Don't know if you noticed but Chrome has literally taken over the browser market. 2 years ago it was IE, then FireFox/safari and the rest. Now Chrome has about 60% of the market. Why does that matter? Well your friends at Google have a ton more data to sift through on the user side.

    So if you have the most popular browser and search engine, the advantage is overwhelming.

    The sad thing is the search results right now really suck. If you are doing a search (like any user - not looking at comp, etc.) the results are all over the place as far as websites that come up on long tail. Short tail all the big boys come up.

    This ain't your daddy's Internet anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Sorry I havent read all of the responses here, but for sure Press Releases.

    They know the whole press release thing is being gamed.

    Have you submitted a press release via PRWeb lately? Half the links are coming from low quality garbage sites. Without a doubt, free press release sites are dangerous, and while Im at it, you can add a boat load of free directory sites to the list as well (and quite possibly a lot of paid ones too)

    My strategy is simple - Dont be single source dependant. Relying on just Google for traffic is extremely stupid and dangerous.
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  • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
    So Mike, instead of saving up for Hawaii, I think it's time for me to get a full school from you. 1-on-1 coaching. So down.
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    RIP Dad Oct 14 1954 - Mar 14 2015.

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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

      So Mike, instead of saving up for Hawaii, I think it's time for me to get a full school from you. 1-on-1 coaching. So down.
      You are just playing around. I told you the price of admission already - an intro to the big sister but noooo...You are just so afraid The Chocolate Love might make you look bad even to the younger sis (with his inner and outer glow) that you will have nothing of it until me and Mr Vaugn show up at the wedding uninvited.

      P.S. not into that whole Guru 1-on-1 coaching stuff. I see people paying thousands of dollars for a weekend with some IM guy I shake my head (sorry Mr Kern not unless you can teach me to talk like a cowboy too)

      Not that you were offering. Were you? Well then..er...if so then yes ...cough...cough..Of course I am the guru you need. I'll teach you to channel the Google Force within you and how to use your LSI saber to defeat Vader err I Mean Matt Cutts (He is not your father......pale skin man no make Filipino).

      Mike Yoda at your service

      or if you prefer the short serious WSO version -

      I CAN MAKE YOU RANK NUMBER ONE IN GOOGLE WITHIN 24 HOURS EVERYTIME.
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      • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
        HAHAHAAHAHAAH. You make me want to kill myself. Especially the chocolate. 1-on-1 coaching? Psh that's basketball man. Nah but I thought your services does offer that 1-on-1 coaching in regards to building an own private network. Unless I am mistaken!
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        You are just playing around. I told you the price of admission already - an intro to the big sister but noooo...You are just so afraid The Chocolate Love might make you look bad even to the younger sis (with his inner and outer glow) that you will have nothing of it until me and Mr Vaugn show up at the wedding uninvited.

        P.S. not into that whole Guru 1-on-1 coaching stuff. I see people paying thousands of dollars for a weekend with some Im guy I shake my head,

        Not that you were offering. Were you? Well the,,er...if so then yes ...cough...cough..Of course I am the guru you need. I'll teach you to Channel the Google Force within you and how to use your LSI saber to defeat Vader err I Mean Matt Cutts (He is not your father......pale skin man no make Filipino).

        Mike Yoda at your service
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        RIP Dad Oct 14 1954 - Mar 14 2015.

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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

          Nah but I thought your services does offer that 1-on-1 coaching in regards to building an own private network. Unless I am mistaken!
          Sure Do PM me and I will hook you up - Gratis - early wedding present. Still don't want an invitation. Prefer to crash.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Acharyaa
    Since everyone's talking about expired domains i'd like to ask something. how do we know if the PR is not fake? what if the domain was hit by penguin or panda? i found a pr 4 domain for $10 at go daddy. i thought high pr domains would be expensive, is this the standard rate? sorry for the amateurish questions, i'm completely new to these things.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Ben Acharyaa View Post

      Since everyone's talking about expired domains i'd like to ask something. how do we know if the PR is not fake? what if the domain was hit by penguin or panda? i found a pr 4 domain for $10 at go daddy. i thought high pr domains would be expensive, is this the standard rate? sorry for the amateurish questions, i'm completely new to these things.

      NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO- has too many people running down high PR domains for a good PR4 to go for $10. Its most likely a domain that has lost almost all its links or faked.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ben Acharyaa
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO- has too many people running down high PR domains for a good PR4 to go for $10. Its most likely a domain that has lost almost all its links or faked.
        I actually went through expireddomains.net to check on some domains. they even tried to tell people whether the PR is fake or not. most of them were fake but i clicked on those they showed to be real PR but the price kind of amused me. what are the things i should consider while buying a PR domain?


        EDIT:actually all the domains listed on expireddomains.net, whether its a pr4 or pr2, could be bought from Go Daddy for 10 bucks. this means all are fake?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Ben Acharyaa View Post


          EDIT:actually all the domains listed on expireddomains.net, whether its a pr4 or pr2, could be bought from Go Daddy for 10 bucks. this means all are fake?
          In order for a domain to go in the bargain bin it had to have gone through auction for days and not get a single bid. I have got some decent Pr3s and some pr2s but I don't know when last i have ever seen a PR4 going for $10 on NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO- that was any good. 99 out of 100 times someone would have sniped it in the auction before it went to a buy now status.

          This thread is funny though. Had I started a thread kust about buying aged domains and building networks lots of people would have cried foul - self promotional - and the mods would have deleted the thread but now all you guys want to talk about in this one is buying and building networks. lol

          on the bright ide I am kinda getting used to calling GD NO-NO-NO. If not for the auctions I would never do any business with NO-no-no-no
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    I still trying to understand why GD is a NO-NO lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ben Acharyaa
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      I still trying to understand why GD is a NO-NO lol.
      Allen must've had a really bad experience with NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO-NO- customer service recently. their hosting sucks tho, no comparison to hostgator whatsoever.
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  • Profile picture of the author brettb
    This is all well and good, but the quality of searches I've done in Google recently have been piss poor...

    ...do a search for phpbb stuff and you'll see posts from 2008. Yeah, they're from authority sites, but usually for obsolete versions of phpbb! Meanwhile small IT sites like mine are no longer ranking for anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
    ^^Mike, lol.

    Page Rankings are based on relationships between nodes (sites). There's a really good reason why Penguin (links) is a machine learning algorithm and not a simple exclusion as you claim. Second tier backlink spam is a very complex issue (except where that spam is obvious and excluded from the link graph entirely - malware, etc).

    You cannot determine spam without first *knowing* that it's spam. Penguin was designed to spot patterns of suspicious in-degree links... but of course they should have just "excluded" those sites without any of that algorithmic crap, right?

    I mean... your post is basically a wall of text with not even a hint that you understand any of this. But you will not back down. It's like watching a train wreck happening in slow motion.

    This is a true gem: "I specifically noted that Google has hundreds of programmers so the simplicity there was not that you could just pop your finger and it would happen but that to hundreds of Google's engineers it would not be a complex issue" - complexity cannot be overcome by hiring more engineers. These issues are complex computationally and/or formulating solutions to problems, not in terms of needing more monkeys to churn out code, lol.

    What's your background in this? Let me guess -tons of common sense, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

      ^^Mike, lol.

      Page Ranking are based on relationships between nodes (sites). There's a really good reason why Penguin (links) is a machine learning algorithm and not a simple exclusion as you claim. Second tier backlink spam is a very complex issue (except where that spam is obvious and excluded from the link graph entirely - malware, etc).

      You cannot determine spam without first *knowing* that it's spam. Penguin was designed to spot patterns of suspicious in-degree links... but of course they should have just "excluded" those sites without any of that algorithmic crap, right?
      LOL you have just argued yourself into a corner. Everyone knows about pagerank and spam detection thanks for the refresher but see if you can figure out how pointing to that completely tanks your argument of this great complexity (I know, my bet is you won't) - GOOGLE as you so rightly pointed out ALREADY DOES THIS. It does this by looking at the type of link not by analyzing the "suspicious" nature of the relationship. A forum profile is a weak link not because the relationship has to be examined first but because the link itself is outside of context and has a discernable pattern. Then you get the quantity of those links and the algo kicks in. Get a clue. This is why Google has been able to hit forum profile links, mass profile linking , bookmarks etc and cannot touch paid links nor really private networks with the algo. The primary detection despite your ramblings is the footprints not some uber super hard oh gee radical man complexity of "suspicious relationshsips".

      At any rate although you will never admit it you just basically confirmed that Google is able to detect such links already and thereby to anyone who is logical greatly reduce the level of complexity you claimed.


      complexity cannot be overcome by hiring more engineers. These issues are complex computationally and/or formulating solutions to problems, not in terms of needing more monkeys to churn out code, lol.
      :rolleyes: lol.... See this is what pegs you as a first or second year CS student that cracked a few books and figures he now knows the real world because the teacher told him some programming terms. Its your total lack of knowledge of real world programming. Thats why you didn't know that programmers use the term query over search and argued it like a newb for two pages. It wasn't in your textbooks (or you hadn't read it yet). Now you blunder about claiming putting more people at a computer programming problem doesn't help break down complexity even if they are smart programmers not mokeys as you alluded to.Sorry Bnet That is EXACTLY How you break down large programming tasks in real world programming - - by assigning it to teams.

      You are totally clueless. However as even your last post reveals - Google already knows how to detect spam links, You have confirmed it . Now all you have to do is stop lying by making up quotes I never used and making up strawmen that i think exclusion is the only way an algo like Penguin works.


      What's your background in this? Let me guess -tons of common sense, right?
      Thanks but even though I would love to claim the sheer brilliance of my mind's common sense it wouldn't explain how I know what terms programmer use and you didn't unless I had a great deal more familiarity with actual real life programming than you do.

      But keep on trucking man. You been derailing this thread for awhile now with your failed CS superiority and you claim I am trolling? Thats funny. I guess you are the OP of this thread too right? So whose trolling who?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Thanks but even though I would love to claim the sheer brilliance of my mind's common sense it wouldn't explain how I know what terms programmer use and you didn't unless I had a great deal more familiarity with actual real life programming than you do.
        Yea that's what I thought. :rolleyes:

        Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

        Did I already mentioned that I'm skiing in Austria right now? :p
        Whaaa?

        Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

        Yup, I'm ducking...
        LOL, no need.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

          Yea that's what I thought. :rolleyes:
          Good so we agree that I have more experience. At long last. took you long enough

          Now got anything to say on the subject of the OP or just good for umm.....trolling.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Good so we agree that I have more experience. At long last. took you long enough

            Now got anything to say on the subject of the OP or just good for umm.....trolling.
            Meh, why not. You'll never show any real credentials (you don't have any) or proof of programming work (you haven't done anything significant/worth showing). Waste of time.

            Oh a side note: GOOGLE LAUNCHED A DISAVOW TOOL!
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

              Meh, why not. You'll never show any real credentials (you don't have any) or proof of programming work (you haven't done anything significant/worth showing). Waste of time.
              LOL so basically your answer is no you have nothing but trolling (and trolling with no credentials). Thought so .

              Only proof offered by anyone in this thread has been knowledge and so far your whole programmers don't use the term "query" has left you bereft of any credibility so yeah We are cool

              Keep on trucking or wood nibbling or whatever chipmunks do bro.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                LOL so basically your answer is no you have nothing but trolling (and trolling with no credentials). Thought so .

                Only proof offered by anyone in this thread has been knowledge and so far your whole programmers don't use the term "query" has left you bereft of any credibility so yeah We are cool

                Keep on trucking or wood nibbling or whatever chipmunks do bro.
                Yea, you got nothing. Surprise, lol. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author paulgl
    Anyone who reads what I write, knows I have a nasty habit of
    detesting stuff from people who claim to be experts, yet continue
    to either misquote, misspell, mislabel, or otherwise mistake basic
    terms. Such as PageRank. I assume whenever one uses Page Rank,
    (note the capitals), one really means PageRank. PageRank is
    a trademark, so anyone using a term like "Page Rankings," must
    be a tad confused. One could use PageRanks, I presume.

    Yup, I'm ducking...

    Paul
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    If you were disappointed in your results today, lower your standards tomorrow.

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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by paulgl View Post

      . I assume whenever one uses Page Rank,
      (note the capitals), one really means PageRank. PageRank is
      a trademark, so anyone using a term like "Page Rankings," must
      be a tad confused. One could use PageRanks, I presume.
      In my opinion PageRanks would be just as bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author nik0
    Banned
    Did I already mentioned that I'm skiing in Austria right now? :p
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  • Profile picture of the author twilightofidols
    For those of you who say Tiered link building will be dead how do you suppose Google will distinguish this from a natural link profile? They can only follow footprints. Avoid doing the following things.

    Disclaimer: These are all speculations, but ways I believe Google will identify SEO manipulation in the future via tiers

    1. Do not build backlinks to ALL your tier ones. Leave many of them without being backlinked, only link back to certain tiers

    2. Do not only build backlinks to a single TYPE of tier 1, vary your platforms

    3. Backlinking Forums, Bookmarks, Guestbooks, Blog Comments all seem UNNATURAL it wouldn't normally be done

    4. Not varying your content submissions enough or spinning improperly. Do all your "About Me's" contain a number, and an age? Does every "about me" mention your hobbies?

    High PR Domain Buying - How will they recognize it?

    1. Same theme across all domains
    2. No outbound links to domains other than your own
    3. Same plugins
    4. Same platform (i.e. all Wordpress)
    5. All links to your domain stickied on first page, none buried
    6. No graphical logos

    Are you making any of these mistakes? This might err on the side of paranoia. But you see what not being careful enough does.... I don't need to say anymore all of you with EMDs understand.
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  • Profile picture of the author danparks
    "complexity cannot be overcome by hiring more engineers. These issues are complex computationally and/or formulating solutions to problems, not in terms of needing more monkeys to churn out code, lol."

    In one sense, correct that a business cannot simply keep tossing programmers at a task to solve the problem (see the classic book "The Mythical Man Month"). But yes, adding programmers - knowledgeable, brilliant programmers - to a task works. About 10 years back I worked for a small software company in the L.A. area. Google has a branch about a mile away (Pasadena area). One of our programmers gave his two week notice to leave for ... Google. I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy, but this enineer was brilliant and knew more than I'll ever know. One of those programmers you chain to a desk and occassionally toss some raw meat to and he's fine. He was a database specialist. Of course we all tried to buddy up to him and offered to take him out for drinks and so forth, in a very transparent attempt to keep him close so that we could some day get a few of Google's secrets revealed to us. Didn't work (he was quite smart, after all), but the point is this. Google hires very smart people. Google hires database guys (you know, those guys that know all about queries). Tossing many, random bodies at a programming task doesn't work. Continually adding smart programmers with the knowledge a company specializes in, does work.
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  • Profile picture of the author mmickeals
    I just wanted to comment on tiered link building. I think that some of you are underestimating how difficult it will be to filter it out. It may be easy to target certain tiered linking profiles. Such as web 2->web2->Money site. But you can easily build a link tier that is nearly impossible to analyze. If you take go 3 or 4 tiers deep with links that link all over the internet, you very quickly run into a magnitute of complexity that would be very difficult to devalue as links to just your money site. As an example, many of you have heard of six degrees of seperation. This is similar, except instead of people you have websites. They may use some sort of filter based of bounce rate or some other site metric, but I would bet money that the tier-linking building algo update will not actually analyze the tiers themselves.

    As another example, there are ways to set up your links that are actually impossible for google to analyze as as a linkwheel or tier, at least according to modern understanding of mathmatics and computers. You can use a non-hamiltonian path ala Undetectable Linkwheels – Link Strategy Diagram
    . And this is just one example of a link scheme that is impossible for an algorithm to track. (Any NP-complete problem)
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    • Profile picture of the author Mantasmo
      Originally Posted by danparks View Post

      Tossing many, random bodies at a programming task doesn't work. Continually adding smart programmers with the knowledge a company specializes in, does work.
      You know what I meant. There is a large set of problems that are currently impossible to overcome in polynomial time, no matter how many engineers there are working on them.

      Hiring brilliant minds does give companies a competitive advantage. There's no question there.

      It's a bit like the point paulgl made about me saying "Page Rankings" instead of "Page rankings"... he, of course, came up with a completely random explanation for that, when all there really is to it is that I started the word "rankings" with a capital "R". I made a typo, big deal.

      Originally Posted by mmickeals View Post

      And this is just one example of a link scheme that is impossible for an algorithm to track. (Any NP-complete problem)
      And that just one aspect of it. But no one here has a clue what you're talking about, don't even bother.

      The best that Mike could come up with was a few personal insults about undergrad/high school this and that. Asked about his background - more insults. That's just pathetic, although I kinda understand why he's so bitter (lulz). It's all good Mikeman.

      The tiered-linking problem doesn't actually need to be solved and, after thinking about it for a while, I don't think that they are ever going to target 2nd-tier. They don't need to. Why? Everyone's a f****** genius here, you already know why.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by bnetwork View Post

        . But no one here has a clue what you're talking about, don't even bother.
        You oughtta know man its been demonstrated you are one of those.

        Asked about his background - more insults. That's just pathetic
        You continue to be dense about what I said. I told you my background and then you went on to the silliness of asking on a forum board for credentials which you yourself have never given. Even making the totally wacky claim that me not providing what you yourself have never provided makes a point in your favor. I actually am developing a White Hat PHP online application that will hopefully be live by early 2013 so as usual you don't know what you are talking about just assuming.


        The tiered-linking problem doesn't actually need to be solved and, after thinking about it for a while,
        The problem with you and at least one other person is that you continue to look at the issue from the outside. Google doesn't have to look at it from a tiered aspect at all. Aiming a lot of spammy links at your site is ALREADY a factor in the algo. Apply that to the ability of said sites to pass on pagerank and the tiered issue is addressed without EVER looking at the links as tiered. the present practice of tiered link building is dependent on aiming alot of low quality links at a site and them having that site convey the juice to your money site. If a site no longer has the ability to do so the situation is resolved in favor of Google

        Your point that that is somehow something so hard that even if you throw great minds at it it cannot be solved is simply Baloni.
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  • What I think is going to be targeted next, is basically what everyone tries to do enmasse, as you mentioned.

    The way to stay ahead and safe from the search engines is to stand out from the crowd. Do things that not many other people are doing, and to develop your own out of the box approach. Of course, don't publish those approaches in public either.
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  • Profile picture of the author JoshMcNary
    Even if Google knows about tiered linking (obviously they do), how would they write an algorithm for it? EMD.. spam.. those seem like easy things compared to massive link hierarchies. Am I wrong?
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    • Profile picture of the author retsek
      Originally Posted by JoshMcNary View Post

      Even if Google knows about tiered linking (obviously they do), how would they write an algorithm for it? EMD.. spam.. those seem like easy things compared to massive link hierarchies. Am I wrong?
      Not really. They don't have to go after tiered links specifically. If they keep on hitting and devaluing the low quality links that these tiers are usually made up of, then that will be enough.
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      • Profile picture of the author JoshMcNary
        But how do they separate low from high quality links? I mean just because a link is on a PR0 doesn't mean it's low quality or irrelevant and in fact, ALL quality content publishers will have to start at the bottom at some point. I don't think this distinction would be easy for an algorithm without laying waste to a lot of people who aren't trying to game the system too hard or at all.

        I mean if it's a link from a site that has automated moderation and anyone plus their grandmother can post a link from it with ease, obviously this is a site that should be targeted and it would be relatively easy because the site would have a bunch of OBL's with low PR posts filled with spam.

        But if a site takes a little time to moderate their content and there are at least some guidelines to who can post what, it becomes harder and harder for Google to identify what's quality and what isn't just through an algorithm giving link builders a bit of shelter.

        That's the way I see it anyways. That's why I believe if you're going to focus on tiered linking at all, you need to make sure you take time to cover your tracks and stay concealed. The bigger footprint you make, the more risk you are accepting.

        All that being said, I do agree it is only a matter of time before it's fixed, but as a simple programmer, I just think there are easier fish for Google to fry right now like upping the relevance of social signals (clues that content is quality), particularly G+.
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