AdWords Tips From a $5,000/mo Affiliate

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Hey Guys,

So I just hit the $5,000 a month mark as an AdWords affiliate. Figured I'm come by and share some of what I learned =)

Tip #0 - Don't Be Afraid to Pay for Traffic

Most beginners are so focused on bum market, SEO and other free traffic sources that they put almost no attention on paid traffic.

Yet paid traffic is just so much easier to scale than free traffic. If you find an offer that converts at $0.40 a click, then as many clicks as you can get for $0.20 you're doubling your money. It's that simple.

Tip #1 - Know Your Earnings Per Click

The most important number is not conversion. It's not your payout either.

It's your earnings per click.

Let's say your product sells for $40 and your conversion rate is 1%. Then your EPC is $0.40.

You know that for every click under $0.40, you're making money.

This is crucially important for affiliates. You should not be looking at payouts or conversion rates like it's the golden egg. What really matters is your EPC.

Tip #2 - Quality Score

Quality Score is one of the most misunderstood aspects of AdWords marketing. There are two phases to quality score:

Phase One, the Pre-Run scan. Before you get any traffic, the AdWords bot scans your site and decides how relevant your landing page is. It gives you a score that is generally between 6 and 8.

Phase Two, this is your on the run score. Your QS is calculated in real time on a per click basis.

Phase One quality score is only important for getting your ad to run. Often times if your QS is too low, you ad won't even show. The key here is keyword relevance. Have your KW in your title tag, H1 tags and body text. It's all about your landing page.

Once you get a 7 or 8 in phase 1, then phase 2 is all about CTR. Your landing page becomes just 20%-30% of the equation. Most people put way too much emphasis on it at this point.

You now want to optimize for Google's eCPM. What Google effectively earns per 1000 impressions they give you. For example:

Advertiser 1: 1% CTR, 0.50 Per click. For every 1,000 impressions Google gives him Google makes $5.
Advertiser 2: 3% CTR, 0.25 Per Click. For every 1,000 impressions Google gives him, Google makes $7.5.

What's amazing is that Advertiser #2 will actually rank higher than advertiser #1, get more volume and pay half of what Advertiser #1 is paying. That's because Google's eCPM is higher for them and it's in their best interest to rank your ad higher. They make more money charging you less.

So the most important thing to optimize for in the later part of the game is your CTR. If you can write great ads and beat out your competition in CTR, then you're well ahead of the game.

Tip #3 - One Keyword Per AdGroup

Each Ad Group allows you to write a unique ad. Most people lump together somewhat related keywords and write one ad for all those keywords. For example:

How to Get a Girlfriend
Where to Meet a Nice Girl
Meet a Girlfriend
Tips for Getting a Girlfriend
(Plus 10 more)

They put them all in one Ad Group and write one ad for it.

This is a great way to both kill your quality score and your CTR. Instead, it's crucial to write just one ad per keyword so that your ads are laser targeted, your QS is high and your CTR is off the charts.

(By the way, I've gotten 25% CTRs before, which is insane.)

Here's how to do it.

Tip #4 Edit in Excel, Upload in AdWords Editor

Most people trying out AdWords try to do it in the web interface. This is an insanely slow way to do things. It'd be impossible to do most of the advanced techniques, and one keyword per adgroup would be suicide.

I often launch with as many as 5,000 keywords; doing that in the web interface would take months.

Instead, you can edit everything in excel and then just copy and past it into AdWords editor.

You can do all your keyword research, group them into Ad Groups and then just copy and paste. You can write all your ads in excel and just copy and paste it into AdWords editor.

Doing this, creating 1 keyword per adgroup takes about 10 minutes once I have my keyword list. I can write ads for 200 keywords in about an hour.

It's much faster, more streamlined and you'll make far more money.

-----------------------------

I'll leave it at that for now =)

Best wishes,

- Derek


#search engine optimization #adwords #tips
  • That is amasing, that this is possible. It depends on what language and subjects I think. But it is great that it is working so well for you
  • Banned
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  • I'll also add for affiliates: Stop promoting Clickbank and start promoting CPA.

    Let's say you're promoting a really good Clickbank product getting a 2% conversion. The payout is $25. Your EPC is $0.50.

    Well, EPCs on CPA programs can range anywhere from $1 to $5. *Earnings per click.*

    I send traffic, 25% of it converts on a lead that pays $5. My EPC is $1.25. They never have to pull out their credit card. It's sooo much easier to make money.
    • [ 6 ] Thanks
    • [2] replies
    • How do you deal with the low QS for CPA offers? Most of the have just one page with an image on it and almost no text at all. I generally get very low QS when I use direct linking for CPA offers.

    • what a gem of a thread. Big eye opener. I am still focused on clickbank but what you say really makes me think now.

      My "problem" is that i am basically a virgin when it comes to CPA...and i never thought that CPA/PPC would even be worth it. So this all basically free offers/trials and people filling out forms or submitting emails?

      The biggest problem with clickbank is the very bad conversion rates observed (1:85 typical) and i wonder what conversion rates you get with CPA.
      • [1] reply
  • Great stuff there derek, you can tell you are actually walking the walk and not just spouting rubbish, thanks

    Andy
    • [1] reply
    • I haven't used Adwords for awhile but I might start using it. So, 1 keyword per adgroup. Does that also mean that I have to create landing pages tailored to each keyword or just point the ads to the same landing page?
      • [2] replies
  • Nice write up. I highly recommend SpeedPPC. It is really an incredible tool.
  • Derek (nice name)

    I can create an adwords campaign in my sleep at this point and don't understand why people are so afraid to use this tool. I'm lazy and want auto pilot so writing articles always seemed trivial to me lol.

    Plus once you master AdWords it will never cost you a thing! I made over $200,000.00 last year with with just one of my campaigns and I only invested in around $60,000 in AdWords. My products where found and even featured on the news a few times because of an advertisement I had on AdWords.

    Derek man you have some very powerful results in front you you:
    i) What keywords convert
    ii) What Sales Copy Converts

    I agree with everything but one part of your method...

    If I where you at this point I would drop promoting other peoples products, take what works and run with it on your own. Letting others do the affiliate work for you in addition to personal sales.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • Hey Derek,

    Yeah, I can totally see that. At the moment I'm still focused on mastering traffic generation. I feel like I'm only at 20% with AdWords. I know guys doing 10K a day on AdWords, so in a way I still feel like a beginner.

    I also want to learn media buys, co registration and a slew of other traffic techniques before promoting my own product. But at some point, yes =)

    Cheers,

    - Derek
  • very good post

    you may want to try out some other networks like Yahoo or MSN
    and PPV for much cheaper traffic source
    • [1] reply
    • Yeah, Yahoo and MSN have been a pain in the --- to work with. I'll upload a spreadsheet, they'll send me back 20% of my keywords with errors, I'll fix it, they'll send it back with more errors ... ...

      Haven't really spent much time trying to get it to work. I probably will at some point =)

      I'm trying out PPV. Haven't had much success yet.

      - Derek
      • [1] reply
  • I tip my hat to you Derek, I have been preaching this for years to other marketers. Bum marketing, SEO and other forms of free traffic are great and should not be ignored but the plain and simple truth is that PPC, PPV and other paid forms of marketing are the easiest ways to get traffic as long as you watch that all important EPC!

    Nice work and thanks for sharing.

    All the best,

    Sean Donahoe
    The Manic Marketer
  • That's sweet stuff Derek. Thank you for your tips. Now, when are you coming up with your own Adwords Tips Unleashed WSO so we can buy it?
    • [1] reply
    • Hello Derek

      I've payed a lot of money for the information that you just now gave away freely! Everyone appreciate this guy for the information is worth thousands...

      I've one question, which CPA network or whatever you call it do you prefer? I have absolutely no experience except with clickbank

      Thanks
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
      • [2] replies
  • Hey Derek, great thread.

    What format of LP have you had the most success with in converting these <$5 CPA offers? Do you do a standard presell/review type page that you would use for a $50+ product?
    • [1] reply
    • Hey Tensor,

      I've used both full page review sites as well as extremely simple "everything above the fold" landing page.

      Again, the best way is to see what other affiliates in your niche are doing and just copy it. In fact, if you can take the same style and do it better than other affiliates that's even better.

      - Derek
      • [1] reply
  • Hey Tensor,

    30-40%% CTR, 30% CR on a $4 offer (EPC is $1.20 ish.)

    Really though; earnings, CTRs and CRs depend entirely on the market.

    - Derek
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • Thanks for this info Derek, this is really great. It's those little nitty gritty elements that really make or break you, so it's so valuable to get some insight on those elements.

    Someone told me that even if you don't use a website during your actual promotion, that most networks want to see a high quality site as part of their decision whether to take you on or not.Is this the case when applying to join networks?

    If so, does the website you show to a network need to be IM related, or does a non-IM website do the job also provided that it shows you are legitimate and professional?
  • Thanks Derek, this is awesome information!

    I'm just curious about a broader issue:
    Did you have any kind of PLAN when you entered CPA marketing and using Adwords?

    Or did you just keep trying different things until something started to click?

    If you were starting again from scratch, would you completely skip Clickbank offers or just try a few that seemed to have potential? I'm noticing more and more IMer's regarding Clickbank offers as either not reliable payouts or not converting as well as before? Thanks.

    also, when you say you 'hit $5K a month mark as adwords affiliate' does that mean how much you spend or is it related to your earnings?
    _____
    Bruce
    • [1] reply
    • Maybe if you're new. Networks know that established affiliates would never reveal an active landing page.

      Here's the site I submit: Derek Pankaew - Performance Marketer - As you can tell, the design is extremely impressive

      When I apply for a network, I always call them right after I apply. Drastically increases your chances of getting in.

      You can't direct link for long in Google. Yes, your QS will get slapped or your entire campaign will get shut down period.

      One alternative is to iFrame to offer page on your own domain. Generally you can get away with iframing for a few days to a week, max before you get slapped.

      Direct linking and iframing are for testing only to see if an offer converts before you spend time building a real landing page.

      You can iframe for an unlimited period of time on the content network. You can also direct link if you get Whitelabel access once you hit $150+ a day.

      (Whitelabel = host your own CPA page and pass the data along and get paid. No landing page needed, but it's your site the forms are hosted on.)

      Yes - I had a mentor who was making 10K a day. Working to hit that level in a few months

      Yes, absolutely skip Clickbank. Wouldn't even touch it. Bad tracking, bad conversion model. Most of all, the Earnings Per Click are far far lower than on CPA offers.

      5K is my net profit.

      Best wishes,

      - Derek
  • derek, that's pretty impressive if you can really write that many keyword ads that quick and efficiently! There's no way I could churn out that many ads. For one thing, it would probably drive me nuts after about an hour of that kind of writing.

    It sounds like you've really got the whole process down flat and nailed at this point. Why not just hire yourself out doing custom KW ad campaigns for clients? At the speed you work at you could probably make close to $1K a day even if you charged just $.50 for each keyword/ad, which I don't think would be unreasonable.

    I'd be happy to pay you $5 per keyword/keyword ad for a batch of 10 as soon as you want to do them, just to see how it works out. If the results are promising we can always discuss lower rates for higher volumes of ads later. (I'd go broke real quick paying $5/ad on volume.)

    When I think about it, churning out keyword ads is one of my least favorite ways to spend my time. So, it's one of those things I'd just as soon pay somebody else to do anyhow - as long as they know what they're doing. And it sounds like you know exactly what you're doing!

    Get back to me on my offer, as I'm serious about it. I can just send your payment via PayPal if you have an account with them.

    Rich Cowen
    • [1] reply
    • Hey Rich,

      I decided not to do client work anymore a while back. I'm currently working on several campaigns that I believe I can get to 1K+ a day passive. Thanks for the offer though =)

      Maco:

      So you're still getting impressions and clicks but your conversion just dies? Is this on the search network or content network?

      On search that's very strange. It's happened to me once, but I knew exactly why that happened (the product went on TV.) It would be very strange for a keyword that's converting to suddenly stop converting if you didn't change anything and the traffic is the same. Unless it's a seasonal item.

      Are there competitors? See what they're doing. If in doubt, yes, pause it for a little while then run it again. That said, don't get too hung up over one campaign. Hammer out 3 campaigns a week and you'll have at least one keeper every other week or so.
  • Thanks for the info. Very good.
    My experience with adwords promoting clickbank and Amazon products is it goes extremely well for a month, I get very good conversion, than it dies. I still get good clicks but no conversion. To date I am not able to work out why. Shall I have the adds running for 2 week, turn off for two weeks and turn on again?
  • Great tips! I just payd to Adwords and it was a little succes. I got my money back from adsense and some new actice members, which was nice
  • Awesome tips Derek, thank you for this again.

    I'm curious about the remark you said about **** though, will it be hard to promote even if you use broad weight loss keywords?

    Thank you for your time, it's a pity you don't do coaching.
  • Yes. Very, very hard.

    If you're willing to pay $10 a click to start for 2 weeks while you get your CTR up to higher than *anyone* else's ad so you can reduce your bids to $1 eventually, then *maybe* you can play in general weight loss.

    I said in **** you'd a 5K testing budget. That's just to get the campaign to profitable. Once you did that, you'd probably want another 10K-100K to spend as quickly as you can once it IS profitable. ie. Once you're making money, you want to be able to take the cap off and let the traffic roll in.

    In other words, ****/weight loss is a giant market where most of the players are the "big boys." Not saying don't do it, but you need a very strong plan.

    Fred: Hmm, haven't seen many Forex offers around. Not many stock trading ones either. There's a $90 Robert Allen offer that's floating around that seems to be doing pretty well though.

    With Forex stuff, you're probably better off going direct with private affiliate programs.
    • [1] reply
    • Hi Derek,

      Thanks for this informative post. I have a question about CPA (Cost Per Action, correct?) offers.

      Can you give me an example of what you consider to be a good CPA offer to promote , not one that you are using of course!

      I guess what I want to know is: What is the action that you like to promote? Zip submit, email submit, etc.

      The reason I ask is that it seems to me that a lot of these offers, if I am finding what you are talking about, are zip submits etc., but they actually are asking for more than that. The person has to complete more information, etc. and it seems to get shady.

      Is what I am asking clear?

      Thanks,

      Ken
  • great thread derek!
    • [1] reply
    • I'm just getting into CPA so this thread is fantastic for me.
      • [1] reply
  • Great post man, thanks!
    • [1] reply
    • This thread will be very helpful for me as a beginner. I am going to start AdWords Affilite very soon. Thanks for nice guidance.
      • [1] reply
  • Derek,

    Great info. Thank you.

    1) Do you ever use the AdWords content network? I've heard that you can direct link without getting slapped (but I haven't tried it, so I don't know).

    2) It would be great to see what one of your landing pages looks like. (Maybe one that the offer is ending on or that you are going to kill?)

    Johnny
    • [3] replies
    • Haha this is awesome stuff. Cant wait to put this into practice, thank you
    • It helps to have the right keywords to go along with the campaign(s) I have found a free 85 page pdf guide written by Brad Callen "Adwords Made Easy" Good info at the right price. Enjoy.

      percolations.org/adwords/awmadeeasy.pdf
    • Great tips, thank you for the post!
  • Huge thanks Derek. The info and your story are very awesome indeed. Could you share abit more on your offer a selection and your initial testing process?
  • Hey Oohah,

    Not 100% clear. If you're doing email/zip submits, make sure you get paid on a first page submit, NOT a second page submit.

    Some email/zip submits actually pay you when they submit their email on the first page, AND put in their address on the second page. You want to use submits that convert on just the email.

    But naturally in either case they're going to ask for more info after they pay you. They need to make conversions afterall

    Yes I do - I'm not making big money on it, but I think it has great potential. You can't "direct link" per se, but you can iframe indefinitely.

    Direct Link: Put merchant's URL in your display URL, put your tracking code as your destination URL which redirects to the merchant's URL. This won't work - You'll get an incorrect destination error.

    iFrame: Put your own domain in the destination/display URL, use a full <frame> or <iframe> to basically make your merchant's page your page. On search this will get slapped fast, but on content you can get away with it forever.

    Resveratrol.TheQualityReviews.com

    Was making $50-$75 a day until RezV went on Oprah.

    Mingle with affiliates and ask your affiliate manager about what's converting. Then test like a mad man

    Btw about 4/5 campaigns will fail. The 1 that succeeds is worth it.
    • [1] reply
    • Don't you think there is a huge lack of security by using an IFrame? I've heard you can get in a lot of trouble by iframing a companies site. When you iframe, and if the customer buys something, the purchase is still being made on your website even though you Iframed, which means it lacks the Secure Connection of the companies page where they enter their personal information or even worse, credit card information.
  • My favorite tools are my brain, creativity and the Google Keyword Tool

    I use Quantcast for demographic data and Compete for competition spying. But honestly, honestly honestly, your #1 tool is your brain. Anyone can use these tools, but few people can think outside the box.
    • [1] reply
    • Banned
      Hey Derek, great info! Will this strategy (one keyword per ad group) work well with just a website that sells services such as mine? I am guessing it will cause it increases your quality score on each ad group.

      Also, if I only want to spend $100 a day, and you have 150 keywords, how do you control you spending limit.

      Thanks,
      John
  • Excellent stuff here, probably the first thread of genuine use to PPC newcomers I've seen on the boards!

    I wouldn't personally go as far as including a separate ad group for every single keyword. I prefer to bundle keywords together in small groups of 4 and 5.

    If I could add anything to that list of advice, I'd say it loud and clear - TRACK YOUR CONVERSIONS!

    If you have hundreds of keywords and only a small group of them are converting, the difference between profitability and rinsing your account is as simple as knowing which ones are making the conversions.
    • [1] reply
    • Wow, holy crap, I can't believe I missed that one. Yes, track your conversions like a madman.

      I use Prosper 202, self hosted. Basically the Tracking 202 family is the #1 tracking system in the world, IMO. Personally PRO isn't quite where I want it to be yet for me to use, but I'll probably switch over in a few months. For now, I use Prosper 202 which is free.

      John: Start with your most promising keywords if they're high volume. If you have 150 low volume keywords, just launch them all. You can easily have 150 keywords that don't even get $100 a day in volume. If they're high volume, launch a few at a time starting with the most targeted ones and see if they convert.
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  • Dude...this is gold. Great post.
  • Hey Lidango - I think I'll pass for now. I'm super busy at the moment; I don't really want to be a marketing "guru" anyway. At least not yet =)
  • Derek Pankaew You are my #1 inspiration for now I have launched my first Adwords campaign today but my ads are still waithing to be reviewed .

    I am hoping I will make $300 / month very soon. Which is my goal for now.
  • It really depends on the offer, the traffic source and whether or not you're preselling with an LP. Again, it's not the conversion rate that matters, it's your earnings per click that's most important.

    I have some offers that convert as high as 30%. Those are pre-sold lead submits. I've had offers convert as low as 5%. I think generally my conversion rates have been over 5%. But again, the EPC is more important than any other number.
  • Hey Derek,

    You have really dropped very practical and useful tips .

    You really deserve to get $5,000 .

    And , what I think is that you have a winning formula in your hand .

    What you really need now is to master powerful scaling techniques to easily boost your earning to $20,000+ a month .

    Mike
    • [1] reply
    • Hey Mike,

      For sure. I'm working on several campaigns right now with $1k/day potential. I've pretty much shifted my focus from $100/day to $1,000 a day, so anything I even bother spending time on now has the potential to make five figures.

      Shift in mindset =)

      - Derek
      • [1] reply
  • derek, u have to create landing pages for all the campaigns?
    • [1] reply
    • For Google Search absolutely. For Google Content (which I haven't made money on yet) I often don't. For other traffic sources I often don't, sometimes I do.

      It's a case by case basis. But for AdWords yes, absolutely.

      EDIT: Actually, if someone who really knows content network would like to exchange notes on search vs content, I'd be very, very interested.
  • Derek..excellent thread. Are you doing any backend offers to your ever growing list?
  • This is an excellent thread. You provide some good observations about doubling your money, and it is important to be able to get a feel for your average click activity. It also depends upon the niche that you are targeting and "Free Stuff" is clearly no going to pay as well as "Debt Consolidation". I would always use google keyword checker to find the average CPC for niches i want to target with my sites.
  • Wow, great stuff...

    Derek, how do you suggest we get the user from Google to the CPA?

    Should we:

    A) Send them directly to the merchant?

    B) Send them to the merchant through a re-direct on a domain name we own?

    C) Send then to a landing page (on a domain name that we own) then have then click on something that sends them to the merchant?

    D) Something else ??


    Thanks in advance!
  • Hey derek,

    I was running on that rezervatrol keyword. I had a great CTR, 9/10 quality score...

    That keyword was still very expensive compared to others.

    How consistent are your campaigns? I have 20 campaigns running right now, but they are up and down.

    i have 5-10 consistent ones.

    Is that pretty normal in terms of consistency?
    • [1] reply
    • SoundsGood: You can't really send them directly to the merchant on Google. On MSN and Yahoo you can, but not so much on Google. That includes domain redirects.

      Leiva: Yeah, pretty up and down =) I've had days where I wake up at 10:00am and I've already made $200, and I've had days where I'm watching my stats in dismay as they get worse and worse over the day.

      Hard to say how long campaigns last. Don't have enough experience to answer that question yet, I've really only been doing this 2-3 months. I'll get back to you on that =)
  • Thats why Im gonna start PPC soon

    Things are so much easier and faster to scale up once you find stuff that works...Instead of writing another 100 articles/blog posts etc...you just add more keywords and increase budget etc...

    At first I didn't believe the guys that told me that if you get a good course on PPC and follow it you can get to 10.000$/month in 4-6 months...but more and more people started to do this.

    If we take Derek's example...its enough for him to discover just 1 more keyword block/offer thats converting and you already increased your profit by 500$ or more.
  • have you tried expanding your best offers to yahoo and msn and see how they compare? Or you want to master google first?

    Also, how long did the mentor stay with you? And did you have any knowledge prior to mentorship regarding ppc>cpa?

    EDIT: Also, how much time do you work per day? Cus I heard some crazy stories like 15 hours a day/12 hours etc...and that would be the time you should put in if you want to succeed.

    All the best.
    • [1] reply
    • Hey Marian,

      The mentor stayed with me for a couple weeks to a month. Really it was the first day that made the most impact, because he explained and showed me his whole system start to finish and explained all my questions.

      No, I didn't have any knowledge prior to that. I did have a little bit of AdWords experience and a lot of copywriting experience.

      I *do* want to master Google first, but I'm playing a bit with MSN. They're completely different animals - You can't really just "port" a campaign over, you pretty much have to start from scratch.

      (Well, you don't have to, but it's better to.)

      I work 10-12 hours a day pretty often. I've pulled my share of 14 hour days. I wouldn't say you "have" to work that hard, but it's not a lax/easy job
  • Its not like Im scared to work or stuff...but the main point of me doing internet marketing of any form is to make as much money as I can WHILE still having the TIME to actually ENJOY them.

    Now for me...you can make 40.000$ a day...but if you work 12-15 hours EVERYDAY for it, then no I don't want it.

    I would be much happy with 10k$ per day (witch btw is STILL HUGE) and only working like 6-8 hours or some stuff.

    Again, I don't know if its even possible to reach a point in this CPA business where you can make that kinda of money with 6-8 hours of work per day.

    Im just thinking that once you get to a certain level, you can hire people and you can "slow" your growth abit so that you can enjoy that money to its fullest.

    To me money isnt everything, the EXPERIENCE they bring is. (travelling, doing crazy stuff, vacations etc...)
  • Hey Marian,

    Totally hear you on the experience part. I'm actually a *highly* spiritual and adventurous person and I live a very active life outside of marketing.

    That said, most internet marketers I know just spend their time marketing =)

    Can you make $10K a day 100% passive? It's tough. Honestly, most people making 10K a day are doing either:

    1) Fads like ****, RezV, Grants, Ringtones etc that will die quickly but have a lot of volume, OR

    2) They're doing media buys, which also dies quickly once you've exhausted an audience or they get used to your banners.

    In other words, the most common methods of making 10K/day are not passive. That said, if you have passive income in mind rather than sheer volume, with a lot of work you could probably get enough profitable campaigns going that you can do 10K a day on solid long term campaigns.

    Rather than the amount of hours you put in, I think your commitment is more important. If you're working 12 hours a day but you're dicking around on forums or watching Lost, you'll probably make less progress than a highly focused marketer working just 6 hours a day.

    Anyway - For me, building campaigns has become a creative process. It's not really "work" anymore. My friend and I are actually planning a trip around the world entirely working from our laptops funded by affiliate marketing. We need to be at 30K/mo to do that, and we're looking to hit that by mid August the latest.

    If you're committed, you can make it happen. Massive action baby =)

    - Derek
    • [1] reply
    • Thanks Derek,
      it is really great to read your experience and values. In my working experience it is this very moment when you do not have to distinguish anymore between (hard) work and mission, that makes us happy and committed.
      Hope your trip around the world becomes reality. Would be great to meet and host you if you should include Germany!
  • In my opinion Coaching and mentoring was always better then any 2k$ course out there IF you know witch mentor to get.

    And yeah derek, I heard that too...that they die somewhat quickly but you can make boatloads of money before they do

    I was just checking out some of the super affiliates blogs and it seems that majority of them are a One-Man Team, and they don't even work full work days most of the time (they do mention that it happens to have 13-14hrs days, but not in a row)...so again I come to my first thing...once you got the "systems" in place and you can outsource at least 50% of the work things might get better.
    • [1] reply
    • How do we know which mentor to get?
  • For me a good mentor is the representation of what you want to become some day, or something close.

    Ex: Example...you know a guy that makes 10k$/month and lives in a house near the beach etc...all that stuff...if you would want something like that...ask him to teach you step by step.

    Don't go with a mentor and let him consult you once a day, or once a week or sht like that...go with a mentor that HAS TIME to teach you and DOESN'T do it for the soul purpose of getting your money.

    You should talk on the phone or via skype or some sht multiple times a day...so that he literally takes you BY THE HAND in almost everything.

    And also, you don't need to get a mentor like ex: Frank kern...just go with a person you like as a person, that makes far,far,far more money than you and that is willing to spend a couple of HOURS PER DAY helping you get off the ground.

    He should be your safety net, when you have a problem you need to know that he WILL be on the other side of the phone all ready to help you.

    Another example: guys like Eben Pagan or Filsaime said in some interviews/presentation that even now, when they do millions of dollars per year they still call theyr mentor from time to time just to get some oppinions from him or ask him for advice in a certain topic and they would gladly help them even if they do make millions of dollars per year and most people would think that they wouldn't need any help.

    Now THATS the type of mentor you want.

    Remember in IM the connections/friends you make over time can count as much or more then the money you make


    EDIT: Of course this is if your a total newbie...if you do know some stuff here and there and maybe already made a small amount of money online...then yes, you don;t need him for hours a day, a few short phone-calls would be enough.
    • [1] reply
    • Sounds perfect. Know anyone like this that I can work with?
      • [1] reply
  • no sry...thats just something you need to research on your own...you can even look on the forum, maybe you may find somebody.

    If not, start looking trough IM blogs...both general and -personal- blogs, cus you can tell what kind of person he is most of the time just by reading a guys blog
  • Derek, Thanks for all this Great Info!

    Earlier Today; I was down, real down.

    Your post was Clean and Not trying to sell me anything; that is Re-Freshing!

    Thanks Derek!
    • [1] reply
    • Hi Derek and thanks for this amazing post!

      Btw!

      What is your Mentors name?
      Does he have a website?
      Does he teach others/or want to?

      :confused:
      And the final question is if its possible for a total newbie that has pre studied google adwords and how everything works about CTR, LP, Quality Score etc before starting, can start with a budget as low as 495$?

      If that is the case, should i promote CPA offers to begin with instead of Clickbank products?

      /Thanks in advance

      /Final Thoughts: Ask the right question to the right person at the right time! The time is NOW for me!
      • [1] reply
  • Thanks for the tips. Adwords is such a tough nut to crack. By using your recommendations it gives newbies a fighting chance of making a go of it without losing their shirt. Thanks very much for sharing.
  • would anyone recommend PPC Classroom? I get a lot of emails from them and they seem to sell out every time they have a class. Just wondering im looking to get into PPC affiliate marketing as well looking for good affiliate products. Thanks in advance
    • [1] reply

    • As far as the learning experience goes - yes I would recommend them but one thing I hate is I have used them in the past and now I get 3-4 emails a day from them trying to sell me some one elses product or service which leads me to believe that they are not actually making money with PPC but making money more on the lines of with there sign up list. They know people are hungry for money or the means to make money so they exploit that to the end of days... Now mind you I only paid $1.00 to get into to there course lol... which was awesome - so now all I do is just read what notes I took down that month. But forget a course - just do it - the best way is just to do it - take a little from everyone and try different things out and add your own spin to it.
  • As far as forums and communities around PPC i only know 2 that I consider to get in: PPC Coach or PPC Classroom...both have made alot of newbies from 0$ to thousands a day, all the coaches are guys that either are super affiliates or know theyr stuff.

    Still trying to decide
  • yea i'm in ppc coach just recently. its good tho, they hav heaps of tools and guides to use.

    need an affiliate meetup in Australia! common
  • good tips
    my post before yours, "paying too much for ppc" ask some of the questions you answered, but how do you edit your bids, if you have alot of keywords do you still do it manually?
    helen
    • [1] reply
    • Hey Helen,

      Use AdWords editor. You can select a campaign and see all the keywords in that campaign simultaneously.

      Sort by Clicks or Impressions first and tweak the bids on your top performing keywords first. Do these by hand. You can choose amounts yourself or do percentages (advanced bid changes on the bottom.)

      Then sort by ad position. You don't actually know if a term is good or not until you get it to page 1 and start getting some traffic, so anything position 8-12 increase the bids.

      Basically, stop using the web interface and start using AdWords Editor.

      DSM: Awesome man =)
  • often launch with as many as 5,000 keywords; doing that in the web interface would take months.

    sorry to post again but please can you tell me how you edit 5000 keyword bids,
    can you show me your method
    thankyou helen
    • [1] reply
    • Derek,
      You just made my week. I have been doing really crappy lately on my sales. I am in the weight loss niche and software for Spyware. I stick to what I know and I am just starting out. After reading this thread I pulled out my credit card and signed up for google adwords. I set a limit of $50 bucks a month to start testing.

      I am absolutely amazed at how easy this is to get clicks. I had the websites and landing pages done but the traffic I was getting from Articles was minimal. I wrote some ads last night over a beer and basically looked at the other ads in my niche. I used the keyword tool and went after the lowest competition. I added all of those keywords to my adds. I created 5 variations of each ad and let them run.

      I checked them this morning and I paid $1.56 for 9,625 views and got 2 clicks. Man this got me excited. To me $1.56 is totally worth it for that many views. Now I just need to figure out the ad design to make people click on them. I will never go back to article writing. Too much work!

      Thanks again!!
  • Derek,

    I heard a webinar with Aymen, the CPA Arbitrage Conspiracy guy. He said two things that really caught my attention:

    1) He said anyone who promotes a product with reviews -- without buying/trying the product first -- should be ashamed.

    2) He said the United States government is cracking down on phony review sites.

    Do you have any thoughts on these two points?

    Thanks,
    Johnny
    • [1] reply
    • Hey Johnny,

      Integrity and values is really completely up to you. I've found that there are many, many, MANY grey lines in affiliate marketing when it comes to integrity.

      If you promote a rebill product like ****, RezV, etc as a "free" bottle that's actually a rebill, some might say you're scamming people. Others don't care.

      Personally, I don't do rebills.

      On the other hand, some people don't do Payday loans because they know the default rate is high and they feel responsible for damaging people's financial future.

      For me personally, with a payday loan you're an adult making a fully informed financial decision. Unlike rebills which are often unclear, with payday loans you make a clear choice to borrow money and if you fail to repay that was your responsibility. Also, if I'm bidding on "payday loan" terms, I'm really just taking someone who would likely have gotten a loan somewhere and moved them to my offer instead.

      So, in my personal code payday loans are fine while rebills are mostly out of integrity. That's just me though - Many marketers have it the other way around.

      For me, doing review sites without really trying the product isn't all that big a deal. When I check in with my gut instinct, it doesn't tell me "I'm doing something wrong." That's the signal I listen to. That's the signal that tells me not to do rebills; and it doesn't really go off for review sites.

      I guess that's my 2 cents on the matter. That said, you really do have to decide for yourself. There are many, many grey lines in this business. Once you really start marketing, you'll see just how much shade shit people will do to make money. Not just affiliates - Networks and advertisers too.

      Anyway. G'luck with your decision =)
      • [ 2 ] Thanks
  • Your LP doesn't really have to be a review at all...you can just pull some articles from directories or something and use them on your landing page to a create a small website but filled with call to action everywhere.

    Hope this makes sense.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • I'm new to Adwords (haven't even started yet ) but not to affiliate marketing. For me... if an offer looks fishy, or if it looks like something I myself would not be comfortable doing, I don't promote it. Simple as that.
    • [1] reply
    • Got to say a massive thanks to Derek for this. Been struggling to work out QS, getting wiped for a 1/10, why it's a 1/10 etc for weeks...

      and I've seen a 7/10 yesterday go to a 10/10 this morning thanks to changes implemented yesterday thanks to Derek's info.

      Cheers
      • [2] replies
  • I just started with Adwords and, though I know the basics, I'm no expert. My campaigns just got approved and I started getting traffic (the past 2 days). I have a review site comparing 3 Clickbank products. I have about 20 to 30 keywords per 3 adds and have 6 adds running. I haven't made any sales, but have gotten a few subscribers through opt-in.

    I'd really like to know what to do to improve conversion and, well, basically, start making sales. I can send you the site in a PM if you wouldn't mind giving me some pointers.

    Awesome post by the way.
  • Derek,

    A couple of questions:

    1) You mention having a lot of keywords. My question is, how?? How closely related should they be to your product? I have been doing PPC for a while now, not selling anything, just for my own niche dating sites. I do fine with those. But, I am using less than a 100 keywords. How do you find 5000 keywords for a niche??! If you take Resveratrol for example. Are there that many relevant keywords?

    2) I already have an Adwords account, one that I have had for a number of years. As I said, I am using it to send traffic to my dating sites. Should I use the same Adwords account for trying out PPC marketing? I don't want to adversely affect my current campaigns or Adwords account by experimenting with PPC.

    Thanks!
  • there are different strategies...some people like to use loads of keywords some people use fewer, depends on your "system".

    You will see in different courses that some of them tell you to start out with 50-200 keywords and use broad match while others might use 1-2k and use phrase and exact match...depends how you learn.

    I have 2 PPC>CPA courses now (that im learning before diving in ) and they both are made by guys that do 10-20k$/day, but they each have 80% different systems.
    • [1] reply
    • I have many 10/10 thanks to derek. Have a good weekend man!!

      Jayson
  • Nice one Derek, but you know what? After reading all these pages, you dont mention anything about geo targeting, to laser targeted towns, cities, boroughs, countries (like UK which pulls out cheaper clicks when using Adwords in the US), to bring down your cost and increase your CTR even more...

    When ya double your monthly commissions, let me know.
    • [1] reply
    • That is a sweet tip. Thanks bud

      Ummm ... You're gonna have to give me more info to help you. What kind of keywords, what your bids are, how much competition, etc.

      If you're bidding on "Debt Relief" for 0.20 cents, you're not gonna get any clicks that's for sure.

      What Naoonline said =)

      A good rule of thumb is 2x the payout per keyword. So if my payout is $25, I'll spend $50 to see if it converts.

      You can do it on a per keyword level or a per "group of keywords" level. For example, if you're doing dating all your "dating tips" keywords combined and all your "get laid" keywords combined.

      That said, I'll often times kill something just on "gut feel." ie. "This campaign ain't working, it's gone."

      1) Totally depends. On zip submits I may need to get $0.05 cent clicks to be profitable. On debt relief, $2 clicks might be profitable.

      2) See above - 2x payout is the rule, though I make exceptions on judgement calls.
      • [1] reply
  • Hi Derek,

    It is so great article.. But if I can jump here and ask you if you can help me survive my one month campaign witch it is not making any click so far..

    I started mine on about a month with selective keywords..

    No results !!! even my site not shown in google search engine..

    Derek .. I am a newbie ,, so please help me step by step..

    Your quick help most appreciated..

    Anwar
  • Derek, I have spent the last few months learning all I can to get started in the adwords CPA arena and I got to say the information is concise and to the point and really informative. Awesome
  • 1) Is there a maximum CPC that you should keep your bids under, or does it depend on the product? I start to get nervous with any CPC over $0.25.

    2) When do you pull the plug on a campaign if it is not profitable? After spending say $50 dollars? Or after sending a certain number of clicks to your landing page, 100, 1000 or what ever?
  • Great post. Learned a lot. Thanks
  • Tip #0 - Don't Be Afraid to Pay for Traffic

    Most beginners are so focused on bum market, SEO and other free traffic sources that they put almost no attention on paid traffic.

    Yet paid traffic is just so much easier to scale than free traffic. If you find an offer that converts at $0.40 a click, then as many clicks as you can get for $0.20 you're doubling your money. It's that simple.





    Paid traffic is the best traffic to get anyone rolling.
  • Hi Derek,

    Not to ask you to share too many secrets, but I was wondering if you wouldn't mind giving some of your thoughts on what is most important for a CPA landing page or landing site?

    I'm kind of getting the idea that landing pages are somewhat redundant now, given the low quality score you'll get, and that a landing site with content is more effective.

    If that is the case, I'd love it if you could share some of what you believe to be the key principles for effective landings sites.

    Thankyou!
    • [1] reply
    • Heh, yeah working on that one. I was actually doing some greyhat style Quality Score stuff that just got slapped last week. (Stuffing content into 1x1 pixel <div> tag overflow:hidden.) It worked for a while but not so much anymore.

      What converts and what Google wants are two different things:

      1) Generally, everything above the fold, proof elements and big fat buttons get the highest CTRs. Big, fat buttons.

      2) What Google wants is *NO* advertising, *PURE* content that you're giving to your visitors.

      So you could put a bunch of content below the fold. That's one way to do it. Big one button LPs definitely don't work on AdWords anymore, but I'd want the *MAIN* elements above the fold.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • Great info Derek, I am going to start using Adwords and I think the Excel idea is going to work for me. Thanks for sharing.
  • Hi Derek,

    Do you suggest prosper202 or tracking 202? ....and why.

    Thanks!
    • [1] reply
    • Well they're really the same. Prosper 202 is self-hosted, tracking 202 is hosted on 202's servers. I recommend using Prosper so the data stays on your end, your uptime depends on your server, etc. It's just more secure.

      At the moment I can't really recommend Pro yet ... I love the 202 guys but pro just ain't where it needs to be for me to give props yet :/

      If you're asking why use Prosper at all - It's basically the best tracking software out there. Period. And it's free.

      - Derek
  • What type of products are you selling that is high enough profit to justify buying your traffic?
    • [2] replies
    • Hey Derek, thanx for the post! I was just thinking about the 1 keyword per adgroup thing when I was on my way to work today. Would you recommend dynamic keyword?

      Noob Qns:I'm a noob to warriorforum, how do I thank someone for a post?
    • Tons of products have high enough profit to work with AdWords. I'm obviously not going to reveal what I'm actually promoting right now, but as I mentioned in my first post the most important number is your earnings per click.

      If your EPC is $0.60, then every click you can get for $0.30 means you're doubling your money. It's not hard, it's just math.

      Nah - I recommend hard coding the keyword into your ads. You'll subtly write better ads because they'll be more tailored.

      I also think it's better for Quality Score to actually hard code your KW into your ads.

      Yikes!

      I've actually never met anyone who uses StatsJunky. I tried to get a feel for it from their site but wasn't really impressed. I'd love to check it out though; Prosper does have it's limitations.

      Aaand that's one of the limitations I'm talking about ; )

      Yes, if you want to track conversion rate on your ads you will need to generate a seperate tracking link for each ad. Obviously, if you have 1,000 keywords that is a major pain in the ass.

      I just use one link across the whole campaign. When I split test ads, I track CTR but not conversion rate. I do track conversions on a keyword level, just not on an ad vs. ad level.

      If you're asking how to track conversions on the keyword level, the keyword variable is inserted into the URL dynamically with {keyword}
      • [1] reply
  • I know 3 guys that have had their servers hacked and their data stolen from using Prosper202..its not that the program is bad is just that some hosting companies have no idea about security.

    How about StatsJunky? I see alot of super-affiliates use it. And it really seems v good.
    • [1] reply
    • Hi Derek,

      If all your ad groups point back to the the same landing page on your site, how can you use subID's to track conversions? You'd need a different landing page with a unique subID for each ad group's ad...correct?

      Thank You!
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  • I just got accepted to a couple of networks. And my first observation is that the EPC seems so, well, low! How does one really make money off these things? Even for a niche like dating the EPC is only around 0.20 to 0.30.

    The only offers that seem to have high EPC are in health/beauty and IM. And I am sure everybody and their dog is running PPC ads for them.

    So, back to my question, how can you MAKE MONEY with this?

    Confused....
    • [1] reply
    • Good question. Answer:

      EPC Stats From Networks Are 100% Absolutely Useless

      The EPC stats you see on networks are the overall stats for an offer throughout a wide range of promotional tactics.

      For example, one person may be paying 0.005 per visitor using PPV ads. They only need an EPC of a penny to double their money. They run thousands of visitors to the offer every day and drag down the EPC of the offer as a whole.

      The EPC numbers provided by the networks include EPCs from veterans and newbies alike. Often times newbies will send a bunch of crap traffic and then leave, sometimes blowing thousands of dollars in the process. This also lowers EPCs.

      In short, EPCs from networks are guidelines, nothing more. I often get EPCs that are 5x what the network stats say they are because the quality of my traffic is high.

      And to answer your question, there's probably a way to make money with any offer on the network.

      G'luck.
      • [ 2 ] Thanks
  • This is all tremendous info! Thanks Derek and all the others for enlightening me!
  • this is one of the most inspiring threads *ever* - as someone re-locating back to EU i always had problems with CPA networks - but i JUST made it into Neverblue.

    I think i do have the experience with Adwords to try this...and needless to say i am very hyped. I should have read the whole thread before i asked you some questions in the PM.

    Priceless information in this thread.

    I am planning to use my own tool affiliatesitequick to make the landers - but now i am unsure whether this falls under "white label"..i will just try this. I use it for clickbank for years already and i am positive it will work with nerverblue also. this would allow me to immediately build high quality score landers based on the affiliate links on neverblue.

    Derek: What is your experience on content network with banner creatives? I just made a new campaign in a pretty competive niche (no, its not ****)...and i use content network but keyword based. I uploaded all available banner creatives to adwords - and i use a "clone" lander on my domain. I will monitor how it goes.

    Add: I am also looking into option slike craigslist advertising...aka "free trial samples for XYZ" or similar. The problem really is that some of the good looking products are in VERY competive markets like "weight loss"and adwords might be very tough in those niches.
    • [1] reply
    • 1) Mentioned earlier, I haven't made money with content network. I've done banner creatives and broke even before, but not profitable.

      2) My opinion is that Craigslist isn't worth the time. I don't know anyone making more than $20-$30 an hour doing Craigslist. It would be just as easy to setup a campaign that would make you $50 a day. IMO my time is much better spent elsewhere.

      It's not whitelabeling btw - That's just building your own LP. Whilelabeling is when you control the offer page itself and pass data to the merchant.
      • [1] reply
  • Derek,

    i chose CPA since it is interesting to offer free trials.

    What is your view on using the term "free" in ads for CPA trial offers? ( I know its a big no-no otherwise.)
    • [1] reply
    • You know, Perry Belcher says Free is a red flag, but I've also talked to six figure affiliates who say otherwise. I've never gotten slapped for using Free.

      I think it's fine.

      You need your own landing page.

      There are a couple blackhat ways to get around it, but you'll get caught in the end.
  • I have a question about Adwords and landing pages. I apologize if this has already been addressed.

    Does Adwords allow you to send directly to the merchant's site with your affiliate code in it? For example, if I am sending dating traffic to eharmony, can I send direct to their join page? Or do I have to send to my own landing page, and then encourage them to go to eharmony?

    Thanks!
  • no, adwords doesnt allow using those links, and there are two reasons speaking against it:

    a) The affiliate links you get are usually encoded, so if you use a link like
    www.xvcsjw.com/?c=127&s=21 it would do a redirect to the real URL. Therefore your display/destination URL and the real (vendor) URL wont match. AW would complain because you used xvcsjw.com but the ad would actually land somewhere else.

    b) Let's say the real URL (after redirect) is www.somecompany6512.com Adwords doesnt allow multiple advertisers using the same URL. Even if it were the case that its allowed to use the vendor url..its VERY likely someone else would already use that URL. (In that case the one with the highest bid would stay and the others would not be displayed at all) correct me if i am wrong.
  • Hey Derek - Awesome tips!

    Question - have you tried building your own opt-in list thru ppc and then promoting CPA to your list? Just wondering if this might also be profitable, and a way to get more for your ppc money?

    Nice Thread - I'm going to have to increase my CPA efforts after reading this. Thanks for sharing.

    edit - also do you use a seperate domain name for every offer you promote?
    • [1] reply
    • 1) No I haven't tried building a list and doing list > CPA, though I've heard of other people doing it profitably.

      2) Yes, different domain for every offer. I probably go through at least 5 domains a week.
      • [1] reply
  • Derek,

    You are a question answering machine.. so here are a couple more.. LOL

    1) We talked about EPC, and you said they were garbage. So, how about your own conversion ratio? What do you typically see on your offers? 1%? 10%?

    2) Regarding the domains for each offer, have you seen much difference in the CTR depending on the domain extension, i.e whether it is .com or .org or .info etc..

    Thanks!
    • [1] reply
    • 1) 20% - 30% on lead gen offers. 3% on sale offers.

      2) Never tested it.

      Good luck man =)
  • Derek,

    What are you using to create your landing pages? Also, do you know if there is a template out there for those review type landing pages?
    • [1] reply
    • 1) Dreamweaver

      2) I wouldn't use a template. If in doubt just base it off someone else's site. But don't use templates.
  • Derek,

    i already made a few sites. You know what i did? I use their "email templates" and use them to build VERY simple sites around it. I got "great" quality score this way.

    Now..i have questions about particular programs i am promoting right now:

    The #1 EPC campaign for me is a "colon cleanse" product with a EPC of $1.887 and about $30 per sale, according to stats.

    I am bidding more on this compared to what i usually bid for clickbank products, but of course my bid is still BELOW the EPC If the EPC is only halfway "right" then this should work?

    Another niche i am promoting is screensavers, the EPC is way lower - but i personally very much like the banners and can see that they have a high CTR.

    I made landing pages for all of the products and the i THINK the landing pages are good. For the screensavers i bid less of course compared to the colon cleanse. The screensaver banners i put on Google content network - but also planning to get banner space from webmasters.

    Now, my question: Do you have thoughts about those niches, words of caution, things like that?

    Thank you!
  • Hello Derek Pankaew..Thanks for this amazing thread..My question is most people are running towards health,dating niche but why not in electronics n physical products ?? Suppose I want to promote a physical product say "hair strainer" ..You know that there are many types of it n suppose I create a review landing page of three best strainers..will this works ??

    In short. I want to know from you how can i promote electronics products via landing page + adwords ?? Please advise me
  • Wait so - You're making money? Why ask for words of caution at all then?

    I mean, I could think of words of caution for both. Colon cleanse is immensely competitive, screensavers the EPCs are so low you may not make money. But hey, if you've already made it work, just keep doing what you're doing.

    Just one more word of caution - Be a little more protective of your markets If you have something that's working, don't post it on public message boards. Warrior Forum is pretty friendly, but the affiliate marketing/CPA world is total cut throat. People steal other people's stuff *all the time*.

    You could probably do it. It really depends on the mindset of the viewer. If they're in a "review" mood, then yes you can do a review landing page.

    In other words, for hair strainers if they don't really know what they're looking for, then a review page would do a great job of pre selling them.

    On the other hand, if they're in a BUY mood, say they're searching for the Nintendo Wii, and you try and sell them with a Nintendo Wii review - Well that wouldn't really make any sense. In this case they're looking for the Wii with the best games, the fastest shipping or the cheapest price. Your selling point isn't the review, it's what you can provide for them that others can't.

    Personally I've never done physical products, so I can't advise you too much.
    • [1] reply
    • Exactly. Send the info directly to me via PM.
  • Very good info you are sharing Derek. Thanks for taking the time to do it. I have not ventured into CPA yet... But it is on my radar screen!
    • [1] reply
    • Derek,
      You stated that you always build a landing page. What about affiliate network landing pages. There is no way that I could build a landing page like theirs.

      I buy a domain and forward that to the landing page using the affiliate link. I mask it and so it still looks like my domain. Is this ok to do? Or will I be shut down by google?

      Jayson
      • [1] reply
  • Derek, Like others here, I just want to say 'thanks' for answering all these questions.
    I for one hope you hit a $1000K a day soon !!! :-)

    Nice guys should finish #1
    _____
    Bruce
  • But wouldn't the doman redirect method work for forum links for example? And for offline marketing? Though you would need to find a network that allows offline marketing. The AM at Neverblue told me that they don't allow it.
    • [1] reply
    • Wha? I've never heard that before. Yeah, if the offer allows it you can do domain redirect. Would work for forums, articles, SEO, etc.

      I'm just saying it doesn't work for AdWords. Google doesn't allow it.
      • [1] reply
  • Interesting how much per click do you pay? 5 cents?
  • Thank You for the great tips!

    I'm also a big fan of SEO with article marketing and press release marketing. Organic traffic is key
  • Great advice for making money , i have one question , do you build the landing page or direct to the afiliated website?
    • [1] reply
    • Just to chip in, I think you will have more control over QS if you build your own site.
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  • Derek,

    Thanks for the great post...

    A couple of questions.

    1) What is your method for testing an offer? Do you go large and wide (huge keyword list) from the beginning? Or do you start with a small set and see if it is worth it first?

    2) How many clicks do you allow for before you make a decision on whether or not the conversion numbers are statistically valid or not?

    3) Do you build a website for every offer you promote? Or do you start with direct linking and then move to a custom website?

    4) What would you say is an "adequate" PPC budget per day to get started in PPC affiliate marketing?

    Thanks...
  • Derek, I glanced through the thread, but don't think I saw this mentioned. How much are you spending on Adwords to get a profit of $5000 a month?

    I have heard people here make comments like, "the guys who make $1000 a day spend $10,000 a day on advertising".

    Just wondering...
    • [1] reply
    • It's about double. So I spend $5,000 and make back $10,000 for a net of $5,000.

      The ROI is actually slightly higher than 100%. Probably about 110% ish.

      Most affiliate marketers I know generally make 100% - 300% return for traffic from AdWords as well.
      • [1] reply
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  • Derek, How are you getting around not having your Adwords account suspended for running affiliate offers?

    I have been hearing a lot of stories about affiliate marketers getting their Google accounts suspended left, right and centre.
    • [2] replies
    • uhm...Google would lose A LOT of money. Where did you hear this?
    • lol what?

      I've *never* heard of an affiliate getting banned from AdWords, *except* when they were advertising gambling without a gambling AdWords account.

      If you're talking about recent stuff, there has been a lot of buzz around fake blogs and ****, Google Money Tree and ResV. Accounts don't get suspended, people just get QS slapped.

      1) Yes. The key is writing your ads in a way that makes it easy to just stick your keyword in there. Often times I'll really only write 10 or so different ads and that will be enough to work for several thousand keywords.

      2) I've never hit the limit. I've heard there is one, but I've never actually gotten an error for too many adgroups.

      I actually wouldn't recommend newbies start off with submits for those reasons; and because the margins are so low. You need to get $0.05 cent clicks to make money on submits and most newbies don't have the skillset to do that.

      That said, no I can't recommend an offer ;/ Look through your network offer list, pick something and try it. Again, if there were an offer I could recommend I'd be doing it myself and wouldn't post it, and generally I probably won't post offer recommendations. I can share my process for finding offers though, which is basically looking over the offer lists and top offer lists and making a guess at what I think might work.
      • [2] replies
  • Great info inthis tread will be trying to learn PPC
  • Hi, correct me if I'm wrong but if you have 5,000 keywords in one campaign, I'm assuming that those are a combination of broad, phrase, and exact which gives you roughly 1,667 different keywords. Are you implying that you write 1,667 ads?

    Also, is there a limit to the amount of adgroups you can have in one campaign? If I have one keyword 3 different ways (broad, phrase, exact) per adgroup, will Google allow over say 2000 adgroups? I'm just wondering if you've encountered any problems doing this from Google as they have to manually (or however they do it) approve your ads.
    • [1] reply
    • keyword permutations are insane, you can get some simple keywords
      alternative|natural|herbal remedy|cure|treatment|remedies|cures|treatments for candida|yeast infection and permutate those (make any possible combination) and have thousands of keywords right there.

      Yes..there is actually a limit because i once got a warning-msg after uploading thousands of keywords for amazon.

      But if you get such a warning your account is literally a mess with so many keywords/adgroups that its literally impossible to manage/handle it anymore.

      I found that overall too many KWs and adgroups is bad...because if you have a high percentage of bad performing keywords in your account it will push down the quality of your WHOLE account.

      KEEP IT MANAGEABLE!!! <-- very important.
  • Derek, If a newbie were to get started, are there offers other than zip submits/email submits that you would recommend? The thing that bugs me about those is the scrubbing, constant rotating, and volume needed to make real money.
  • Thanks.

    Here are my 2 cents:
    1. Don't do direct linking.
    2. Test 2 adword ads at all times.
  • ah..nice. I was just accepted into MaxBounty also.
    • [1] reply
    • How is MaxBounty compared to Neverblue and MarketLeverage?
      • [1] reply
  • Thanks Derek! Do you ever use bully tactics?
    • [2] replies
    • This thread broke my posting cherry, you are awesome !!

      Quick question about the Excel to Editor process, if you don't mind ?

      In doing the import / paste into the Editor, what do you use for the Max CPC settings for each Ad Group ? Do you set some arbitrary cap or do you already have individualized numbers before the import even happens ?

      And assuming individualized numbers, do you just use Google's Traffic Estimator tool to get the CPC for 1 - 3, then paste those into the software ? Or do you use other tools that automate things somehow ?
    • Meaning PPC Bully/Content Bully or meaning deliberately "attacking" competition by, say, bidding 1 cent below their bid and making them pay more while your bid stays constant?

      1) No.

      2) No.

      Open a new account. AdWords ToS allows you to have as many accounts as you want so long as it's linked to an MCC account.

      That said, I know a lot of people who just open accounts and don't link it. I do it just to be safe.

      Nah - Just use SubIDs and Prosper 202. No need for tracking pixels. Just Google Prosper202 and watch the documentation videos.

      Pixels are pretty inaccurate and also less flexible. I don't use pixels at all.

      - Derek
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  • I don't get it. Everyone says that PPC to CPA is so profitable. But I thought you need this "pixle" beeing placed on your site, so that you get your commission.
    But when I promote via PPC I can't put html code in my ad, so only the destination url.
    Could someone explain that for me?
  • My question on this is. Lets say you have a LINK on your webpage/homepage to a product BUT you dont have a PAGE on your site that is specifically for that LINK meaning there is too little to be said about that product so you have just put a link on the homepage or menu to that product which on a merchants website?

    Will adwords say ok because you dont have an article that goes into some great essay on that product we are going to say your homepage is not relevant?

    Like I cant imagine every website going through adwords has a PAGE for every product, that would insane
    • [1] reply
    • Nah, it's fine to link to the homepage. You probably won't get conversions though if it's not targeted ...

      Campaigns are mostly how you want to organize things. 1 AdGroup is important because that allows you to write one ad per keyword.

      I'd probably just stick them in 1 campaign if the volume is low.

      Can't direct link to the merchant page.
  • Hey do you also suggest having One Campaign per Adgroup

    meaning If you are going to promote 1 website and that website has 3 categories on it

    Nike
    Puma
    Addidas

    Would you create 3 campaigns with the titles above, and 3 adgroups with the titles above if you was dealing with only 3 keywords with the titles above?
  • Derek,

    you just nailed it - this is one of the most important Adwords tips ever.

    I have seen some of my sites getting 7 to begin with and CRASHING down to 3 Quality score after impressions - due to

    a) Offer or Ad not attractive which means: LOW CTR ----> QS drop down.


    This essentially means your great campaign for whatever keyword you had with LOW bids and good QS is over. This means going from $0.15 bids for a "good" keyword to $0.80++ bids - which basically means the end for this campaign/adgroup depending on your payouts/conversion.

    I cannot emphasize enough that its EXTREMELY important to maintain/get good CTR, at least by OPTIMIZING your ad wording.

    HOWEVER, here is the trap:

    The problem mentioned here (quality score dropping to the bottom) is especially evident bidding on HIGH TRAFFIC, less specific keywords.

    If the keyword is less specific to begin with you WILL get a lower CTR as opposed to a more targeted keyword....and it wont take longer than a few hours/maybe a day and your formerly nice ad/good QS is history.

    I myself am working with adwords for a long time already, but i 100% admit that i made this mistake quite often, working a LOT on the landing page....but not keeping attention to the "Phase 2" and the ad CTR.....the ad CTR can "kill" any of your ads/campaigns....and its great you mention this!

    The solution: Yes, STILL make a good landing page, but choose LESS traffic keywords, more specific keywords. MONITOR, monitor, split test and GET THE CTR UP.

    If you see really bad CTR, even after re-wording ads....then its time to move those to content network.

    What you say: The "dynamic" calculated QS which is calculated "on the run" is MORE important than the initial QS.
  • Where is the link for info on Derek's CPA course?

    Thanks!
  • Tip #0 - Don't Be Afraid to Pay for Traffic ... that's been me until I read this post ... THANKS for the thread guys!
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    • [1] reply
    • "No" - You can iFrame and it'll stay up for a couple days, two weeks max, but you'll get slapped 95% of the time.

      Direct linking is more or less blackhat now in Google Search. You can do it, but you'd have to use some shady methods.
  • some CPA networks dont allow iframes, some do. Some need approval of the AM.
    Iframing is bad for Adwords - even if you CAN/DO iframe...you need other content on the site to get good quality score. If you just make an empty site with an iframe and no other content you will have a hard time getting any good QS on that page.
    • [1] reply
    • Deleted this post - Originally said I wasn't taking mentoring clients. I've recently launched my training program, so the post no longer applies.
  • This thread has been amazing! Much more valuable than any ebook I've purchased on the subject. I've had two failed attempts at PPC but this thread has givin me the confidence to jump back in.
  • Derek,

    Would you care to tell us how many different products you promote/niches you are in?

    I am currently running adwords for a product, but I can barely afford to promote one keyword for that!
  • Not sure whether i mentioned it here in the forum...

    But a REALLY quick way for CPA landing pages is Xsite Pro. Especially since you can re-use the templates and then make one site after the other just copying the sites and change texts/keywords.
    • [1] reply
    • Darn George, just coming back here to report this and you stole the words right out of my mouth.
  • How many ads are you running to make your 5000 dollar profit?
  • Ok have any one had experience with content management systems with Google Adwords?
  • Staggering content for a free thread! I make a living internet marketing but never used PPC - somehow I just figured I didn't have enough knowledge and after reading your thread am now sure I don't LOL - however I had a teacher who said "The more you know - the less sure you are and the better your prescribing gets.."

    Just had to op in with my respect for your freely given expertise.

    Best Regards

    Phil Eugene
  • I need to chime in in regards to something very important Derek said earlier in the thread.

    He was asked about the adwords budget, and he says he has a "mentor" paying his adwords budget!!

    I just want to remind you guys, it is 100% easier to get good cash flow going if "...someone would pay your/my adwords budget" <--- sadly, some people dont have this luxury!

    There are some profitable niches were you need substantial daily adwords budget, and YES - you CAN spend $1000/day and *MAKE* $2000 NET with this.

    But the majority of people (incl. me) does not have a "mentor" (sic!) paying their adwords budget - we need to start with whatever we can afford to pay and then derive our budget form the earnings. For such people its usually 100% out of reach to make a killing in very saturated markets (****, Weight Loss, Financial...) UNLESS you are able/willing to spend substantial. The most profitable niches ARE in those markets, sadly. I just want to remind you of this because if someone who is able to spend $300++ day on adwords its a whole different story compared to someone who only can spend $50.
    • [2] replies
    • Wow Derek is lucky to have someone paying for his AdWords budget!
      • [1] reply
    • Haha - Yeah, I did get totally lucky.

      That said, my first month or so I didn't have funding. I was using my own money. I only got the funding because I could show my stats, show my campaigns and prove that I'm profitable.

      That was the first RezV campaign I did that I paid for myself. Made about $3,000 net. Using that campaign as a case study was how I was able to get the funding secured in the first place.

      (It wasn't my PPC mentor funding my stuff - Different guy.)

      Without funding would have been much tougher, but I'd still be able to re-invest that 3K and keep growing. It would have just been slower.

      In my opinion you shouldn't do highly competitive niches until you really know what you're doing. IMO Resveratrol is a suicide niche for newbies right now. The front page changes every 2 weeks. Nobody stays on the front page. Not a good sign.

      Weight loss might have settled down now that ****'s on the way out. That said, it's still a tough market.

      You don't need to spend major to get profitable. My top 2 campaigns were profitable right out of the gate. My losers I scraped before I lost more than $200.

      I did *not* spend 5K to find out I'm not making money. More likely than not that just means you don't know what you're doing yet.

      For now, I'd stick to profitable but not insane stuff.
  • harry,

    NOONE can guarantee you to make profit!

    And..much luck getting "top spot" w/ ****, Credit report, things like that.

    TOP SPOT for Credit report keywords is EIGHTEEN EURO/CLICK
    TOP SPOT for **** and related is THREE/FOUR EURO++/CLICK

    As to be more specific, i promoted a very good EPC weight loss product for two days, i had several landing pages where i i am *convinced* the landing pages are great. However, i still spent more than i made. I "only" spend about 0.80/click...but i just expected better conversions so i suspended the ads.

    You will never know your conversion rate before hand, all you can do is test and observe.
  • Hi Derek

    Great tips mate, I've actually copied/pasted much of your responses from this thread lol

    I'm very close to starting my first campaign, hopefully by Friday. I know you say "stick to provitable but not insane stuff" - can you give your thoughts on what to look for (as a noob) that could provide decent profit without losing your shirt in the process?

    For example, even a tip like "avoid weight loss, loans, ringtones" would be good, but even more helpful might be "go for email/zips" or "teeth whitening" or whatever.

    I'll have no more than about $100/day to spend. I know that's not a lot but I don't think I could make the progress with much less (some may disagree).

    I'm thinking search + site placement and sticking with one niche at first...is that a good idea? The one niche idea? Or would you say to go for 3 at least? or whatever

    cheers and thanks for sharing advice on watching EPC...great stuff
  • HERE'S THE PROBLEM:

    if you look at the stats (copeac, NB, MB)...ALL of the supposedly best converting products are exactly in those insane niches. Weight Loss/****/CC/DEBT/Mortgage/Credit/Dating/Ringtones.

    Its anything BUT easy to do those niches on PPC...you are right, "insane" is the best expression if i see a €18 (!)bid for "free credit report".

    Now, according to the given stats and EPC and bids, those niches MUST make money, otherwise there wouldnt be such high bids, right?

    I would like to know whether you're currently doing some of those niches (mind you, i am not an adwords newbie either ...

    Furthermore: I see that Copeac actually very often allows iframing. This could also highly boost conversions. Did you do some testing? What does your typical landing page look like?

    Also...whats your opinion in regards to zip/email submits on first/scond page as opposed to "trial" sales offers....or real sales offers?

    I honestly have/had a ***load of campaigns/adgroups running over the few days, all various kinds w/ really nice landing pages....but its still not-conclusive. I had campaigns which went very well, about 20% conversion...and today the SAME campaign i got 70 clicks according to stats and NO single conversion. Just one example.

    I really also want to get the good offers like credit reports, things like that...but its more than difficult in those niche(s).
  • I am just gettin into PPC and this will help abundle. Thanks guys, keep it going
    • [1] reply
    • GeorgR, Derek,

      That's sort of the problem I'm having too...

      I find very few offers that are in between crappy zip submits and offers with insane CPC's (****, Debt, etc..)

      Do we just need to dig deeper, or think out side the box to lower ad spend?

      For example,

      Let's say you want throw 500 clicks at a landing page for testing, and your budget is $200.

      That averages out to $0.40/click.

      Do you have to go really long tail for this to be possible? More testing budget?
  • Wow, Derek, this has been unbelievably helpful. A while ago I posted asking about what product I could use to get my friends to try PPC and now I think I'll just direct them to this thread

    A couple questions about ad testing, if it's cool with you...

    1) Do you actually do A/B testing of ads, and if so, how do you manage it for thousands of keywords and ad groups (assuming 1 ad group per keyword)? Do you just focus on the most productive or do you work your butt off at all of them?

    2) When (and if) doing A/B testing of two ads, by how much percentage and for how long does B need to beat A before you decide to scrap A, keep B and bring a new challenger into the mix?

    3) What do you do when an A/B isn't showing conclusive results for a good while, as in neither A nor B seem to pull out ahead *or* they both get spikes and seem to pull out ahead of the other at random times without a clear winner?

    I ask because I've found this surprisingly more common that one would think it'd be.. of course I have my own answers to these... but I'd appreciate the POV of someone who does 10x the volume that I do.

    Thanks for any help, I really appreciate what you're doing here, as do a whole lot of people. I am downloading and learning Prosper202 even as I type this
  • Hi Derek and Georg

    What would you advise on using to get LPs for CPA offers ? Currently, this is what slowing my campaign launches.
  • Interesting, I've been doing SEO to get traffic to my site, but my conversions haven't been all that impressive.

    Maybe I'll run a PPC campaign and see how it goes. I'll do no more than $10/day for 5 days and see how much I can sell. I'm glad you said not to be afraid of PPC. It's nice to know that SEO is always an option, but if I can convert traffic on the cheap, I'm more inclined to using PPC.
  • Derek,

    I think with your methodical approach you really should be cranking into image ads on the content network - this is where you can really get some volume and less competition.

    I'll add to that, it is worth building a huge list - then you can leverage that 5k a month into much much more with the use of auto responders and email offers....

    Well done
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  • Wow, great idea about the Excel editing...i'll have to try that
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  • Hi Derek,

    Great stuff here. I'm looking for a mentor so please pm me if interested.
    thanks
  • Derek, I forgot to add that I'm looking for a one to one mentor only.
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    Ok Derek Can You Please Explain::----)))))>>>>>>-

    How do you seperate your keywords using the match types..
    i know you use one keyword per ad but do you group that one keyword using all three match types under 1 ad..for instance

    ad1
    keyword
    "keyword"
    [keyword]

    or do you make them all seperate for instance

    ad1
    keyword

    ad2
    "keyword"

    ad3
    [keyword]

    can you please explain
    • [1] reply
    • You might consider:

      ad1
      keyword
      -"keyword"
      -keyword

      ad2
      "keyword"
      -[keyword]

      ad3
      [keyword]
  • there is just a very interesting thread going on in the main forum..its about "untargeted" marketing. In short: The big affiliates who sell "weight loss" do actually NOT target weight loss keywords or sites having to do with "weight loss". (Or ****, Colon Cleanse, Credit Score, whatever)

    This should become clear if you see how much those bids are. The key here is a 100% reversed "out of the box thinking" in regards to marketing. Target the right audience, yes, but NOT diving into those extremely oversaturated and expensive markets.

    Rachael, as for LPs:

    There are several methods which i all use and test.

    1) Use my own tool to clone/make sites
    2) Use MS exprssion web and make simple landers
    3) Use Xsite Pro to make landing pages
    4) Use wordpress and use pages on wordpress as landers
    (usually i use the "review style" pages when i do this on wordpress)

    A good idea is..look at what other people already do and check their landing pages. If you see an offer/landing page of one of your competitors, and you see their site is established and older...they must be doing something right otherwise they would not advertise those keywords and have the site up for so long.

    You can assume such established affiliates ALREADY did a lot of split-testing and you could assume what works for them also might work for you.
  • at this point...i'd say dont bother with broad matches. You can try those later, but phrase/exact...then test a little...then try broad if you feel brave.
  • @Derek

    Awesome info... thanks for sharing your experiences!

    I'm also in the process of launching campaigns in the google content network... I hear that CPA offers work well.
  • Using Excel spreadsheets is a waste of time IMHO. Inexpensive tools like AdGrenade and PPC Clicker will help you put up your campaigns in no time. These are great tools to implement many of the suggestions here in this thread (e.g., one ad group per key word, etc.).
  • The video on ppc keyword toolz?

    Anyone watch this video? At the 10 minute mark when filling out ad, if you are promoting clickbank product would you put your cb id/hoplink in the destination url?? Instead of just the website domain?

    Correct me if im wrong. Sorry im a newb.

    Thanks
  • Hi Derek, just signed up for your course. Experienced SEO person looking to get going with PPC. Looking forward to it!
    • [1] reply
    • I wanted to get yoru initial thoughts on Derek's Adwords course. How is it so far?
  • Nicely written info Derek!

    I do One adgroup for one keyword too for several of my campaigns, then expand the most profitable and active adgroups from there.

    It surely works and give great CTR. 10% is not impossible

    Btw, good luck with your mentoring!
    I bet anyone who want to lean PPC will benefit from your experience!
  • Great tips.
  • Hi Derek!

    i've installed prosper202 in my tracking domain, but for conversions tracking it need the pixel on success page or return url.

    How do you track conversions without that??

    And a last question ... do you promote campaigns with a fixed $ revenue per lead or promote campaings offering % of sales too??

    Many thanks for this post!
  • really great tips buddy, Let me follow your tips... Cheers for sharing....
  • Thanks Derek, lota GoOoD info in here!
  • Has anyone here seen their sites get Google Slapped?
  • yes one of my content network campaing was slapped today.
  • I am in the middle of my first adwords campaign and my ad is slipping off the page! Ugh! I thought my ad was decent, and started out with a good CTR. I guess I will have to bid more next go round. I was doing this campaign on the cheap.
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  • Great thread there. I'll take a round 2 reading all these stuff
  • Great post, I agree 110%

    I am just now finally getting very serious about PPC after getting my ass kicked very early in the game. I was gun shy thinking, I am going to go broke with PPC.

    Now after a year of very hard work getting more that one site and many keywords to the top of Google organic I am still barely scraping by.

    Writing articles, building backlinks, making videos, feeder blogs, Rss Feeds, podcasts etc etc it never ends.

    Now I know not using (and mastering PPC) is a good way to work yourself to death and stay broke.

    How many times could I spend 1$ to get back 1.50? Duh
  • This is great but newbie cannot afford adwords prices. So for them do you have any other alternative?
    • [1] reply
    • yes! Screw adwords (seriously) and do some article marketing and/or rank sites high in Google. It works very well for me and i dont pay Google one penny (anymore). My clickbank earnings have tripled compared to last year. Only fools promote clickbank products which pay $30/pop via adwords.

      He mentioned somewhere he had a sponsor (in other words: someone covered his ads budget ) since it could easily cost a few thousand just to split test and do AB testing UNTIL you finally come up with a profitable campaign. You dont make $200.000/year without such extensive testing. Just...not everyone has a sponsor, and not everyone is willing to blow a few thousands just to do testing. I am still saying that for your average CB product where the TYPICAL conversion rate is 1:85 adwords just wont work, including content network or all other alleged "one click a penny" methods. IF it works, it might work for 1% of all people, while the remaining 99% will fall on their nose and lose big time.

      And, recently, it might have gotten even way more difficult for certain niches with those new Google restrictions.
  • Care to recommend a network you like to work with?

    Also are you cloaking referral data for your traffic?

    Thanks
  • You can start slow (use budget) and build your funds up slowly. Ramp things up as you learn. There are ways to get cheap traffic with Google but you have to study it. If you just go in fresh and try to bid on high $$$ kw's you will get slaughtered.
  • good stuff
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  • I agree and I share your disdain for Google... They are like a dentist, you know it's going to hurt, and it's going to be expensive, but you have to do it anyway.

    I prefer a content network image ad assault for cheap clicks for those 30$ products.

    Agreed, search PPC is slaughter with those.
    • [1] reply
    • Ah..i did with adwords for at least two years including content network, including banners, i even spent hours on hours custom designing banners and uploading them. Content network is not the "cheap holy grail" as some want you to believe. Do me a favor and pick some random mainstream niche like weight loss, insurance, yeast infection..whatever. You pay the same ridiculous amounts on content w/ banners just to have your ads shown.
  • I'll give it a go I am waiting on over 50 thousand image ads to get approved for almost a week now. I hope your wrong but your probably not....

    Looking into CPV for CPA.


    I like Yahoo ppc but heard their targeting for content NW is terrible.
  • I'm a little confused on this. When he says "Let's say your product sells for $40" is he talking about your commission if you sell the product or the actual list price of the product?
    • [1] reply
    • it would be the commission, and this would not be for the overall product level but for each keyword level.

      i also see some things the OP talked about may not be relevant today with G's new T and C policies so adjust to suit to be safe with your account.
  • Tip #0 is where I have stopped. I like it being called #0 because it really is the basis for success. Getting over that fear is the hardest part. When you are strapped for cash...the idea of spending it makes it too difficult, especially when you just bought a program or training for something and they tell you that to succeed you are going to have to pay even more.

    At some point I'll get over that fear. Right now it's easier to work within the realm of things that I can control a bit more (not that I have much to begin with).
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  • I could not agree more. I think this is where most people make a mistake and loose money on adwords.

    i would also note that if you keyword is in the ad title or ad body and matches the search phrase, Google will highlight or bold the text.

    This will help increase the CTR.
  • Great post Derek. Glad I found this thread and glad to see that you can make money with PPC.
  • thanks for the great info, i really am taking it to heart. congrats with the money you are making! sounds like you deserve it after your hard work
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  • I have not used Adwords for a while but I might start applying it. Thus, a group of ads, keywords, Fri This also means that I need to create a tradition landing page for each keyword, or simply a point of listing the same page?
  • That is amazing, that this is possible. It depends on what language and subjects I think. But it is great that it is working so well for you
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    • Jus out of ineterest, why have you dug up and commented on a load of large and old threads?

      • [1] reply
  • Brilliant information given - Appreciated
  • thanks for the tips will use them if i move to cpa-ppc
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