Booom! Goes the theory that Links are going away or that Google will penalize all in context links

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  • SEO
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Recently we have been hearing on this forum that links are going away and even that Google intends to penalize all high authority links that pass PR. :rolleyes: However right on time comes this interview with Matt cutts

Link Building Is Not Illegal (or Inherently Bad) with Matt Cutts

Obviously google doesn't want buying links and wants Web masters to make the final decision in placing links (As opposed to you going on someones site and placing it for them) but in this interview Cutt lays out that links are still the best indicators of importance, that guest blogging is not inherently evil and that even syndicating content is a good thing as part of a link building strategy.

Some highlights that deal directly with direct link building

Cutts on Guest posting
The challenge with guest posting is that people have different conceptions about what it means. And so for a lot of people, a guest post is something that a fantastic author has thought deeply about...........Posts like that can be a great way to get your name out there, to build your reputation, to make yourself more well-known, potentially build links or traffic or help with your SEO....... If people just move away from doing article banks or article directories or article marketing to guest blogging and they don’t raise their quality thresholds for the content, then that can cause problems. On one hand, it’s an opportunity. On the other hand, we don’t want people to think guest blogging is the panacea that will solve all their problems.
Cutts on syndication
Syndication can be a valid way to either increase your reputation or to drive traffic and potentially to get more links.....Things like rel=canonical help. Embedding a link within the text of the article itself never hurts. Ideally, you’d want to insist on some sort of attribution on the syndicated page. You can use authorship markup.

Cutts on How authority is established
Links are still the best way that we’ve found to discover that, and maybe over time social or authorship or other types of markup will give us a lot more information about that.
In short links are not going anywhere for now. Sure Google doesn't want you buying links,using networks or spamming but the underlying truth that links are still counted remains for SEO and will for some time.
#context #google #link #links #penalize #theory
  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    For what it's worth, I'm also a fan of using social networks as a backbone of organic linking as mentioned here:

    One great way to build links in my vision is to build strong Twitter, Facebook, Google+ presences. Build strong, engaged, followings and then create great content and you push that out and then that audience will likely share it, and start doing other things that cause visibility and help it rank. That’s a cool way to do link building.
    But for most of the people here who are failing miserably at their link building efforts, I would guess it has a lot more to do with the decision making process for what and how to build links than the concept of building links itself.

    None the less, there is still plenty of meat left on the bone for link building and SEO in general.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

      For what it's worth, I'm also a fan of using social networks as a backbone of organic linking as mentioned here
      Emailing (which is also mentioned in the interviews), social, practically anyway of getting your site and content promoted are great. The reason you don't hear much talk about white hatlink building here is because it doesn't fit into a cheap SEO link building package and you can't quantify it like 2,000 links foe X dollars.

      I mean I don't even advertise that service here because its time consuming and you are talking in the thousand dollar per month and more range. It really doesn't fit in well with adsense and affiliate sites. Even as a discussion, I stopped talking white hat here years ago as every thread I brought up about it just drops off the front page.
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      • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Emailing (which is also mentioned in the interviews), social, practically anyway of getting your site and content promoted are great. The reason you don't hear much talk about white hatlink building here is because it doesn't fit into a cheap SEO link building package and you can't quantify it like 2,000 links foe X dollars.

        I mean I don't even advertise that service here because its time consuming and you are talking in the thousand dollar per month and more range. It really doesn't fit in well with adsense and affiliate sites. Even as a discussion, I stopped talking white hat here years ago as every thread I brought up about it just drops off the front page.
        Over the past few month I've personally been getting much more engaged with white hat methodologies and applying them with some pretty significant success. I know that it's not exactly what I'm 'known' for but I certainly can't deny its effectiveness.

        But you're right. It's not cheap, easy and it definitely isn't 'quick.' It's much easier to click 'start' on GSA than it is to interact with dozens of people every day, for months.

        But, now having a bit of experience in that side of things I actually do think the longer term traffic potential is much better there than in trying to generate traffic directly from Google.

        ... who knows, 2 years from now I may not doing anything except WH promotion.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

          ... who knows, 2 years from now I may not doing anything except WH promotion.
          As a long time follower of your posts on that other forum that no longer exists and your current forum, I just might literally shit myself if that were to happen.
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          • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            As a long time follower of your posts on that other forum that no longer exists and your current forum, I just might literally shit myself if that were to happen.
            :p

            I am going to be opening a white hat section on SEOSUnite because there is some 'meat on the bone' there as well. Over the past 6 months or so I've had a lot of success generating traffic, leads, and sales using a 'mostly' WH approach to everything I did - so even I will admit that as much as I love the dark arts and as viable as they still continue to be despite the hysteria surrounding them at times - WH methodologies have only improved in their effectiveness with the advent of services like instagram, pinterest or of course the standby's like twitter and facebook.

            2 years ago, there seemed to be one great way to skin a cat and another hard way that didn't seem as easy or effective. Now with more people filling into these social sites, I feel there really are two ways to skin a cat and they ultimately might both have advantages unique to each approach that typically don't overlap.

            But the WH way takes time... a lot of time.... Thank god for tablets

            Originally Posted by smodha View Post

            Mine is video marketing.
            I'm incredibly interested in that. Once I've run out of fun things to do with social sites, video is next on my list...
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
              Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

              :p

              I am going to be opening a white hat section on SEOSUnite because there is some 'meat on the bone' there as well. Over the past 6 months or so I've had a lot of success generating traffic, leads, and sales using a 'mostly' WH approach to everything I did - so even I will admit that as much as I love the dark arts and as viable as they still continue to be despite the hysteria surrounding them at times - WH methodologies have only improved in their effectiveness with the advent of services like instagram, pinterest or of course the standby's like twitter and facebook.
              I'll be looking forward to that. I'm much more of a lurker over there, but I've always liked the stuff you have shared over the years. It's rather obvious that you are not just blowing smoke and are constantly testing and tweaking.
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              • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
                Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

                I'll be looking forward to that. I'm much more of a lurker over there, but I've always liked the stuff you have shared over the years. It's rather obvious that you are not just blowing smoke and are constantly testing and tweaking.
                I appreciate that, sincerely.

                That having been said, I'm not going to open that section until I feel much more comfortable with everything I've been doing. Let's face it - no matter how much experience I might bring to something new in IM in general, only working on something for 6 or 7 months hardly makes me an expert on it.

                That having been said, I'll probably release any tutorial or explanation oriented material on the godoveryou blog and then link to discussions on the forum. But if you are a lurker, you will certainly see when those changes take place.
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                • Profile picture of the author chris_87
                  Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

                  That having been said, I'll probably release any tutorial or explanation oriented material on the godoveryou blog and then link to discussions on the forum. But if you are a lurker, you will certainly see when those changes take place.
                  Color me interested. I am holding you too it . Looking forward to it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

              :p

              I am going to be opening a white hat section on SEOSUnite because there is some 'meat on the bone' there as well.



              Great stufff. Looking forward to it. GOY doing white hat?

              That alone is great linkbait.... lol.....Everybody from the backlinks forum days mouth will drop open.

              Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post


              There's no logical reason to ignore social networking in favor of 'pure link building.' .
              Guy you seem incapable of getting a simple fact no matter how many times you are told. No one else in this entire thread is talking about ignoring any promotional activities except you.
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              • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post



                Great stufff. Looking forward to it. GOY doing white hat?

                That alone is great linkbait.... lol.....Everybody from the backlinks forum days mouth will drop open
                What can I say, I go where the people are.

                As it turns out, I'm finding out that if you go where the people are and give them something they love they give you backlinks in return. Those backlinks rank you and put you where your customers are.

                It also makes you notable in your niche, which means you get to pull off the guru thing in that niche, write and sell your own materials and then get even more links leading to better rankings and even more customers for those products.

                It's been an adventurous 6 months or so for me.

                But before anyone gets too scared, I'm still spamming the hell out of every form that exists with penis enlargement backlinks - that hasn't changed. It still works, and I'm not sure I want to become any kind of authority in the penis enlargement niche.... not sure what that might say about me after all.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

                  It also makes you notable in your niche, which means you get to pull off the guru thing in that niche, write and sell your own materials and then get even more links leading to better rankings and even more customers for those products.
                  Yep pretty much the whole idea behind Google authorship. Google is downplaying it but thats going to be big. Will it knock out links this summer or even next? Nope but it will become more and more a part of the mix over the years.
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                  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Yep pretty much the whole idea behind Google authorship. Google is downplaying it but thats going to be big. Will it knock out links this summer or even next? Nope but it will become more and more a part of the mix over the years.
                    Yeah, I'm not 100% sure how I want to handle that yet. I don't know if I should create one master author account that is involved in several niches, or if I want to create several authors - 1 per niche.

                    There's just not enough information for me to make a solid determination on the best approach.

                    What do you think about it?
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                  • Profile picture of the author chris_87
                    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                    Yep pretty much the whole idea behind Google authorship. Google is downplaying it but thats going to be big. Will it knock out links this summer or even next? Nope but it will become more and more a part of the mix over the years.
                    Not to derail the thread too much Mike, but how does one derive link juice from google +? For instance if you had a personal G+ profile, John Smith and you wanted to raise your business in the rankings

                    • make yourself a contributor to your own site
                    • add your site to the links section of G+
                    • try to grow your circle network as much as possible
                    • share your blog posts from your money site to your circle


                    Is that the gist of it?
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      • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Emailing (which is also mentioned in the interviews), social, practically anyway of getting your site and content promoted are great. The reason you don't hear much talk about white hatlink building here is because it doesn't fit into a cheap SEO link building package and you can't quantify it like 2,000 links foe X dollars.

        I mean I don't even advertise that service here because its time consuming and you are talking in the thousand dollar per month and more range. It really doesn't fit in well with adsense and affiliate sites. Even as a discussion, I stopped talking white hat here years ago as every thread I brought up about it just drops off the front page.
        Heh. 3 months into the company and the first 2 months was researching links. That alone took FOREVER. And then the e-mails, follow-up e-mails.....Nevertheless, I get the cheese can't complain!
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      • Profile picture of the author Backlinko
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Emailing (which is also mentioned in the interviews), social, practically anyway of getting your site and content promoted are great. The reason you don't hear much talk about white hatlink building here is because it doesn't fit into a cheap SEO link building package and you can't quantify it like 2,000 links foe X dollars.
        High five for that one, Mike.


        I've found there is a small segment of the population here interested in white hat stuff.

        But as you said, they usually get drowned out with all the SENuke/social bookmarking nonsense. Sigh...
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  • Profile picture of the author Voasi
    Yup, anyone who's anyone in the SEO world knows that link building isn't going away anytime soon.

    As they get more social data and integrate more of their platforms into search (where all their money is at), that still may change... but even then, not as much as people would think, IMO.

    Even with social, there is still lots of fantastic ways to "game" that system too. I always recommend that you should be focusing all efforts, not just one form of building links or building QUALITY SIGNALS to your website.
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  • Profile picture of the author jtut21
    The important thing to keep in mind with any SEO strategy is to focus on the natural building of links and content. Anytime a webmaster crosses over into "black hat" techniques there is a risk of getting penalized by Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
    In the past 2 months I've seen excess of $30k in sales coming in from sites with just pure simple old school style backlinking. The only ones who want you to believe that social signals have or will replace linking are the vendors selling their latest magical 'social signals' plugin.
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    • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
      Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

      The only ones who want you to believe that social signals have or will replace linking are the vendors selling their latest magical 'social signals' plugin.
      Social 'signals' will never replace backlinks.

      No plugin can do what legitimate social interaction can do either.

      It's unfortunate that there have been so many 'social' plugins promising 'server melting traffic' that anytime someone says you can get a lot of traffic from social sites as well as numerous backlinks people automatically equate that to the lies that software developers tell.

      There's no 'easy' or 'quick' and certainly no 'automatic' way of really using social sites to their greatest potential (outside of maybe advertising?)

      But for what it's worth - I never believed in traffic and backlinks generated by people on social sites. I always thought it was bullshit. It took my wife of all people to show me that wasn't true when she generated 2,400 visitors and over 3,200 page loads in 60 minutes by sharing a simple 'list post' with her followers.

      But no, social 'signals' won't replace backlinks. However social interaction will generate backlinks and traffic - which is the difference we are talking about. (See: Replace is wrong, Generate is different and correct)

      And yes, I'm posting this full well knowing that there will be a minimum of 3 'willfully dense' individuals who just are unable to grasp what is being said. To them I say, pull your head out of your ass and do a little work for once.
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by godoveryou View Post

        Social 'signals' will never replace backlinks.
        They don't need to. Since social networks send traffic of their own, who actually cares what impact they have on search rankings

        There's no logical reason to ignore social networking in favor of 'pure link building.' The links you build do not send TARGETED paying traffic. They have an indirect effect of influencing Google in order for Google to raise your organic rankings in order that you eventually get traffic - until you get penalized.

        Link builders - since they're engaging is such a risky practice to begin with - should view social media marketing as a hedge against being dumped. Why would anyone RELY on GOOGLE 100% these days? It makes no sense at all. It's just habit.
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  • Profile picture of the author DouglasP
    Google just want force us to use google plus.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by DouglasP View Post

      Google just want force us to use google plus.
      It's the first thing that came up in my mind when I read the quotes yes

      @Others: Whitehat promotion is not doable to promote at this forum indeed. I have quite a few lawyers as clients that I charge $198 or $396 / month, and that's about the max I can get from them. But then lately one of the lawyers requested a quote from a certain professional SEO company and he shared prices with me and that went as high as $50,000/month or $400/month for a single profile at an authority site in that niche. Can you imagine that? $400/month for a PR n/a profile link.

      Obvious such link won't do very much for their rankings but it's more based up on traffic that it "might" drive. That 50k was based on lawyer/attorney keywords in a large city (still local keywords though).

      I understand that a lawyer might only need 5-10 clients to make that 50k back but still...
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  • Profile picture of the author smodha
    I'm not sure how Google can stop link buying. The biggest brands on the Internet all do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author wipeoutmedia
    I can say from first hand experience that links pointing to your website means diddley squat these days. Recently I have noticed (from clients) that SEO is greatly gained from: continual blog posting (like almost daily), integration of those blogs with Facebook, and visitors that are staying a while on your website whilst navigating to more than one page.
    I have seen with amazement, a few websites with backlinks you can count on one hand getting number one spot - overtaking everyone else in their industry using the most competitive of keyword phrasings. After analysing the competition, some of these 'other' websites have a large amount of strong contextual backlinks numbering in their 100s.
    I am not an SEO guru or anything, although I do have an interest in it and currently use SEO PowerSuite to assist.

    These developments are very interesting indeed.
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    • Profile picture of the author jxam69
      Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

      I have seen with amazement, a few websites with backlinks you can count on one hand getting number one spot - overtaking everyone else in their industry using the most competitive of keyword phrasings. After analysing the competition, some of these 'other' websites have a large amount of strong contextual backlinks numbering in their 100s.
      I'd be interested to know how the timings of both the SERP improvements and declines compare to dates of Google updates - in particular Penguin 2.0.
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    • Profile picture of the author GyuMan82
      Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

      I can say from first hand experience that links pointing to your website means diddley squat these days. Recently I have noticed (from clients) that SEO is greatly gained from: continual blog posting (like almost daily), integration of those blogs with Facebook, and visitors that are staying a while on your website whilst navigating to more than one page.
      I have seen with amazement, a few websites with backlinks you can count on one hand getting number one spot - overtaking everyone else in their industry using the most competitive of keyword phrasings. After analysing the competition, some of these 'other' websites have a large amount of strong contextual backlinks numbering in their 100s.
      I am not an SEO guru or anything, although I do have an interest in it and currently use SEO PowerSuite to assist.

      These developments are very interesting indeed.
      1. Links are still HUGE and definitely mean more than "diddley squat"

      2. Yes stuff like content and social media is important, but backlinks still are king.

      3. If you are looking at ultra-competitive keywords that only have a "handful" of links, either these handful are really strong links (PR6+) or you have come across the new "cool kidz strategy" where webmasters block bots from backlink counters like majestic seo, ahrefs, open siteexplorer, spyglass etc. to hide their blog network links or shady 301 redirects

      4. Powersuite I have found leaves out a ton of links in the analysis.
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      • Profile picture of the author wipeoutmedia
        Good answers and thanks for taking the time.

        Before SEO PowerSuite, I was using website backlink search tools like: Backlinks Checker Tool - Backlink Watch

        Anyway, I managed to secure top spots just by using WordPress SEO Plugin by Yoast, so there is no "cool kidz strategies" involved. I simply chose the most important keyword phrase that everyone (competitors, etc) is using from Google's Keyword Tool, along with historical keyword data from the clients' AdWords account. Made sure this keyword phrase was in all the sections needed for the SEO plugin to generate high scores. Waited around three weeks, and the position moved from fourth page, to third and recently number one spot - I was gobsmacked. The client only posts every second day and adds the post to Facebook with of course the Facebook backlinks to the post, which are nofollow anyway, but people flock to the website in droves after a post and stay awhile.

        Cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
      Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

      I can say from first hand experience that links pointing to your website means diddley squat these days. Recently I have noticed (from clients) that SEO is greatly gained from: continual blog posting (like almost daily), integration of those blogs with Facebook, and visitors that are staying a while on your website whilst navigating to more than one page.
      I have seen with amazement, a few websites with backlinks you can count on one hand getting number one spot - overtaking everyone else in their industry using the most competitive of keyword phrasings. After analysing the competition, some of these 'other' websites have a large amount of strong contextual backlinks numbering in their 100s.
      I am not an SEO guru or anything, although I do have an interest in it and currently use SEO PowerSuite to assist.

      These developments are very interesting indeed.

      It entirely depends on the your niche and the type of site you're referring to. When it comes down to sites with pre-built regular blogging and such DOES make a difference. But if you're talking about targeting buyer keywords with newer sites, the BEST way is to actually have the right type of links pointing in.
      What are the right type of links? Well, the jury is still out on it - basically it's the type of linking that Google hasn't or cannot catch on to.
      For example, private blog networks STILL get GREAT results, but if Google catches your network you're done. Platform commenting and such still gets awesome results too unless you're verging on spam and actually get blacklisted because of it.
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      • Profile picture of the author mosthost
        Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

        It entirely depends on the your niche and the type of site you're referring to. When it comes down to sites with pre-built regular blogging and such DOES make a difference. But if you're talking about targeting buyer keywords with newer sites, the BEST way is to actually have the right type of links pointing in.
        What are the right type of links? Well, the jury is still out on it - basically it's the type of linking that Google hasn't or cannot catch on to.
        For example, private blog networks STILL get GREAT results, but if Google catches your network you're done. Platform commenting and such still gets awesome results too unless you're verging on spam and actually get blacklisted because of it.
        Don't forget that Google has the disavowal tool to help identify any private blog network.

        If you are on a network with other people, some of them will get caught up in a net and the PBN will be exposed.

        If its your own network, a hand checker can quickly deconstruct it and penalize it. That could hurt worse because your investment is gone.
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  • Profile picture of the author jimmyvanilla
    There's a house in my neighborhood that is painted BRIGHT GREEN. I hate it, but when it was built it was the coolest thing in town... then and there...

    So what?

    Short-term SEO strategies are exactly that.

    Links are never going away, but the way the search engine algorithms use them is. Links will always be a powerful signal to the search engines about the authority of a website in the eyes of other websites, but it might not always be on the basis of anchor text, context, PR, follow/no-follow or anything else.

    That's one thing that is safe to bet on and at the moment there's an especially large amount of uncertainty as the search engines struggle to compete with and react to the explosion of social networks and the way people are using tablets and apps instead of browsing.

    The key to building yourself a long term web presence is not just doing what works according to SEOs this week, or this month... it's bigger than that... and sites with great reputations have always been able to carve out a presence and always will.
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    That interview said NOTHING to indicate that 'link building' the way YOU, Mike Anthony advocate doing it is okay.

    In fact, the basics of the article were 'make great content' and have people share it via social networks. Nowhere does Cutts say it's okay to purchase a dropped domain, add texts and links back to your money site so you can rank.

    Of course links are not 'illegal.' However, most common link building practices are non-compliant with Google's Guidelines.

    Links come as a result of marketing is pretty much all he said.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

      That interview said NOTHING to indicate that 'link building' the way YOU, Mike Anthony advocate doing it is okay.

      Dude be quiet.

      You are just upset because your whole premise that Google was going to penalize all sites that pass Pr in contextual links has been blown to smithereens. Heres a few more facts to chew on

      A) you don't know what I advocate if you can make silly claims like all I do is use networks. You see what I advertise here. Thats all.

      B) The OP point blank states networks are not what Google wants. I make no pledge to do only what Google wants (especially since large companies like Disney, MS - shucks even Google themselves link to partner and sister sites with followed links). Cutts is not God and they do far more direct "manipulation" of their search results by selling the top three results than any SEO will ever do. My point as spelled out clearly in th OP is that links are not going away and neither are all guest blogging, syndicated content links or in contextual links like YOU Barry stated.

      C) as long as they are going nowhere some links WILL CONTINUE to work whether you like it, cry about it or whine is going to stop this summer. Google STILL relies on links - PERIOD.

      In fact, the basics of the article were 'make great content' and have people share it via social networks.
      Nope the article covers a variety of ways to promote your site not just social networks. However links - relies on links working - not being penalized like Barry Rutherford stated

      Shuck it even directly blows up what you claimed about guest posting.


      Nowhere does Cutts say it's okay to purchase a dropped domain, add texts and links back to your money site so you can rank
      Duh... already stated in the OP. Get back to me when its an all White hat world. Fact is in the real world - if you join it sometimes - companies buy bankrupt, gone out of business companies all the time for their assets be they manufacturing, financial or advertising assets

      I buy online business property called domains. I look to develop them over time to full sites and do what Disney, Adobe, MS, Google and ton load Fortune 500 companies do every day - link to their other sites. However its just one thing I do.

      Links come as a result of marketing is pretty much all he said.
      links are not going anywhere is what the piece says and thats all it needed to say to blow up the nonsense you have been trying to push on the forums this week.
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  • Profile picture of the author smodha
    I don't believe in the "build it and they will come..." hype as supported by the Cutts Camp.

    If you started your own bricks & mortar business would not advertise to generate more publicity and therefore more visitors? Or would you just open the business and hope people drop by randomly?

    I see link building as no different. Sites with low PR/nofollow attributes can still be excellent sources of traffic. Regardless of SEO value, it's still great advertising.
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by smodha View Post

      I don't believe in the "build it and they will come..." hype as supported by the Cutts Camp.

      If you started your own bricks & mortar business would not advertise to generate more publicity and therefore more visitors? Or would you just open the business and hope people drop by randomly?

      I see link building as no different. Sites with low PR/nofollow attributes can still be excellent sources of traffic. Regardless of SEO value, it's still great advertising.
      Cutts knows you have to market your website. That's the whole point of social media marketing. You custom craft your message and take it directly to the people. The people share it and drive in more visitors. Any links built from that are secondary and completely natural.
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      • Profile picture of the author smodha
        Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

        Cutts knows you have to market your website. That's the whole point of social media marketing. You custom craft your message and take it directly to the people. The people share it and drive in more visitors. Any links built from that are secondary and completely natural.
        How do you go about doing that exactly? If your FB page/Twitter profile/Google+ page has only a few followers it's not going to make that much difference to your marketing strategy is it?

        Unless you implement CPC it's back to square #1. The way I see it is - you have 3 options:

        1) you build your own backlinks and rank your site

        2) you pay Google to drive traffic to you

        3) you pay Bing, Yahoo, FB or use Solo Ad Swaps to drive traffic

        Number #1 is the most cost effective if you implement your own blog network. There's more ROI in my opinion.
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        • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
          Originally Posted by smodha View Post

          How do you go about doing that exactly? If your FB page/Twitter profile/Google+ page has only a few followers it's not going to make that much difference to your marketing strategy is it?

          Unless you implement CPC it's back to square #1. The way I see it is - you have 3 options:

          1) you build your own backlinks and rank your site

          2) you pay Google to drive traffic to you

          3) you pay Bing, Yahoo, FB or use Solo Ad Swaps to drive traffic

          Number #1 is the most cost effective if you implement your own blog network. There's more ROI in my opinion.
          Yes, you pay. That's pretty much it. You want to pay for traffic anyway. That way you can test your conversions/sales funnel extensively. There's no reason to put the cart before the horse as they say.

          This is a business after all. Paying for traffic should not be an unusual concept to anyone who's trying to make more money. As far as content marketing goes, you build your social networking audience and directly deliver the content to them.

          Example: I made a page yesterday that had 364 visitors directly from Reddit, SU, G+ and Facebook. If you create sharable content you'll get a ton of traffic from social media. Even better, they spent an average of 4:12 on the page so I know they enjoyed the content.

          BTW, I asked Dwight Schrute about link building and he agreed with Cutts and Mike Anthony.

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  • Profile picture of the author online only
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    Links are still the best way that we've found to discover that, and maybe over time social or authorship or other types of markup will give us a lot more information about that.
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    Complete idiocy as usual. I never said even once that Google is not relying on backlinks.

    "links are not going anywhere is what the piece says and thats all it needed to say to blow up the nonsense you have been trying to push on the forums this week."

    Yepper, I'm 'pushing' my anti-link campaign hard. Because, ya know, deep down I really, truly give a sh*t whether you or anyone builds links.

    Build all the links you want. Build links, and then build some more. Then advocate that others build links. After all, it's not 'illegal' so you won't go to jail for it.

    Meanwhile, check out the 50 recent threads that say "How I get my rankings back now after I builded links?"

    Times have changed. You're a founding member of the Warrior Forum Flat Earth Society and you won't catch on until way later than everyone else. Even then, you'll pretend your right.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

      Complete idiocy as usual. I never said even once that Google is not relying on backlinks.

      Well I'll leave it to others to determine whose uninformed but lets review some of your highlights this week

      Google really wants PR-bearing links off their graph.
      So all sites with authority links off the "graph" eh?

      By their logic only bad blogs pass PR so they'll know who they are quick


      When someone rightfully pointed out that Google can't determine intent of all the sites on the web by an algo your response was

      They can't tell. So, to be on the safe side, they penalize you anyways.
      So um then Google is going to penalize all followed links

      Cutts said he'd have the SERPs cleaned out by the end of Summer. That includes 'guest posting for links'
      and my personal favorite

      Now they've figured out what's left and still working. Right now that's hacked links, high PR contextual links, and private networks.

      I'm sure we can all guess they'll be going after these next.
      Google going after contextual links from authority sites? Guess Cutts didn't get your memo.

      People have read you Barry. You can't hide. You have stated that links are being done away with and not just any kind of links but the very links (from high authority sites) that this piece states clearly they do rely on and will continue to rely on.

      You were wrong. period
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    Yes, we'll definitely 'leave it up to the others' to decide

    F that - let history judge my statements. Links are definitely on the way out. You don't need backlinks to rank low competition terms. Social alone is more than enough. As more links are removed from the link graph by Google for being 'unnatural' it will make ranking in this fashion even better.

    The last buggy whip salesman hated Henry Ford for his invention of the automobile, but it didn't change history.

    You are that buggy whip salesman.

    People are accessing the web via mobile devices and using social sharing more than ever. No amount of wishful thinking will change that. Google has re-designed their website in order to minimize organic listing in favor of paid searches. No amount of prayer and hope will change that. The tide is changing and the 'link builders' will be relegated to the dustbin of history soon enough.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

      Yes, we'll definitely 'leave it up to the others' to decide........ You don't need backlinks to rank low competition terms. Social alone is more than enough.
      LOL....I think they just decided

      The last buggy whip salesman hated Henry Ford for his invention of the automobile, but it didn't change history.

      You are that buggy whip salesman.
      You are no Henry Ford but bless your little heart for dreaming. We should all have dreams

      People are accessing the web via mobile devices and using social sharing more than ever. No amount of wishful thinking will change that.
      See thats where you show your own idiocy. Who denies that or would even want to change that? Now let me see. I am out and about and need to know where I can buy some tires. Do I go to facebook or use an app that pulls data from Google to the nearest places? hmm.

      Plus most all of us are into social as well. I expect authorship to be huge. Truth is I have for some time and am waaaaay ahead of you. Now do I believe links are about to go bye-bye....well no and ahem neither does Matt Cutts . This might blow your mind but some SEOs can walk and chew gum at the same time. They can utilize all the opportunities not run around like Chicken little proclaiming Google is going to ax high authority contextual links.

      Thing about the horse and buggy is that only idiots sold their horses just because Cars were coming out. They still did great work on the farm and to this day people still ride them - go figure.

      Google has re-designed their website in order to minimize organic listing in favor of paid searches. No amount of prayer and hope will change that.
      Again who says otherwise? Thats why I have no issue with buying domains rather than paying Google in order to "rank". . Will I still take the targeted free traffic - why yes I think I will.


      The tide is changing and the 'link builders' will be relegated to the dustbin of history soon enough.
      They'll go onto something else because they sticked with what worked and gradually transitioned over the years it took for what worked to go away. Whereas the ones who give up what works now for what may work later are at the back of the line unable to afford the investments needed to make the change. So they will still be behind.
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  • Profile picture of the author wipeoutmedia
    I really have to agree with Barry on this one. I sincerely feel link building is on its way out. To be honest, one of the reasons I purchased SEO PowerSuite was to work on my clients link building campaigns, but since one client is already reaching the top spot, I feel there is no real need to use this tool for that functionality. This client was spending over $600 a month on Google AdWords say a few months ago, reduced it to around $450, now is thinking of getting rid of it altogether. Funny enough, the client recently had a call from Google asking about how the campaign is going and if we needed a review. Basically the answer was, no thanks - will be reducing AdWords to next to nothing, and he even agreed based on the recent search performance. Anyway, unless you are Adobe with money coming out of your ***, it is pretty pointless to have a paid listing sitting on top of an organic listing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

      I really have to agree with Barry on this one. I sincerely feel link building is on its way out. To be honest, one of the reasons I purchased SEO PowerSuite was to work on my clients link building campaigns, but since one client is already reaching the top spot, I feel there is no real need to use this tool for that functionality.
      I'm not getting the sense in that paragraph. Based on one client reaching the top spot in one niche you are concluding that link building is unnecessary for all the rest of them? I gather you are brand new to SEO. You are going to have some serious issues going forward being an SEO.

      By the way outside of SEO spyglass to look at competition Powersuite has no good tools for building links . Not last time I looked.
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      • Profile picture of the author wipeoutmedia
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        I'm not getting the sense in that paragraph. Based on one client reaching the top spot in one niche you are concluding that link building is unnecessary for all the rest of them? I gather you are brand new to SEO. You are going to have some serious issues going forward being an SEO.

        By the way outside of SEO spyglass to look at competition Powersuite has no good tools for building links . Not last time I looked.
        You are right, I am relatively new to SEO. I tend to stick with WP plugin and website development. Yes, I am being a tad presumptuous, but it is a strong hunch I have based on what I have learnt and this is not necessarily from one client. I, like many of us have watched the Matt Cutts videos, and read heaps on the subject, however putting less weight on backlinks seems to be the natural progression in this day and age - it make perfect sense to me. True there are a lot of decent contextual backlinks that Google would love, however there are also a lot of Fiverr backlinks in the mix too.
        Google of course wants its users who use its services to find exactly what they are looking for - no easy task!!! With the search result data that can be accumulated these days and then you combine that with user Analytics data such as: bounce rate, returning visitor, how many times they visited, how long a user stayed on a page, how many pages the user navigated, and the list goes on. So, to me it seems to make sense that backlinks are just one of many strings to Google's bow. And in Google's eyes may be not as important as it used to be.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

          True there are a lot of decent contextual backlinks that Google would love, however there are also a lot of Fiverr backlinks in the mix too...So, to me it seems to make sense that backlinks are just one of many strings to Google's bow. And in Google's eyes may be not as important as it used to be.
          You are confusing spam link building with link building in general. Fiverr does not come into it because Google is counting those links less and less as links. Where you have it wrong is that because they are clamping down on Spam link building it means they are clamping down on link building in general. Truth is link building has many different strategies some of which are white hat and some of which are not but will never be seen by the algo as anything but white hat.

          No algo in the next century will be able to determine intent.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
          Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

          I really have to agree with Barry on this one. I sincerely feel link building is on its way out. To be honest, one of the reasons I purchased SEO PowerSuite was to work on my clients link building campaigns, but since one client is already reaching the top spot, I feel there is no real need to use this tool for that functionality. This client was spending over $600 a month on Google AdWords say a few months ago, reduced it to around $450, now is thinking of getting rid of it altogether. Funny enough, the client recently had a call from Google asking about how the campaign is going and if we needed a review. Basically the answer was, no thanks - will be reducing AdWords to next to nothing, and he even agreed based on the recent search performance. Anyway, unless you are Adobe with money coming out of your ***, it is pretty pointless to have a paid listing sitting on top of an organic listing.
          I understand you are a bit new to SEO and I am guessing working with clients in general on their marketing strategies. I would strongly suggest you reconsider advising a client like this to abandon AdWords, even with a #1 organic ranking. If their AdWords traffic is converting, they should continue to do both. It is about branding. When a prospect does a search and sees your client ranked #1 plus an ad by the same client it gives more of an impression that this business or individual is an authority on the subject. I've done a bunch of testing on this. Funny thing happens. AdWords clicks stay about the same, but the clicks on the organic listing goes up. You will capture more traffic.

          Now if their AdWords campaign is just a money pit and not converting to revenue for them, then you need to look at reorganizing it or possibly scrapping it. That is a different conversation though.

          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          Let's contrast this to current 'worst practices.'

          1) Slap together a P.O.S. site. Don't put time into it because you're in a huge hurry to rank another page.
          2) Backlink to your new page until your 'force' a first page ranking.
          3) Get turned in by your competitor.
          4) Lose ranking.
          5) Rinse and repeat.

          There's virtually no reason to focus on backlink building, especially for new websites that are under-developed. It's bad practice. Sure, you may force a ranking with enough High PR links, but it will be temporary.

          Social signals are important IMHO, but even more important is they send direct, targeted traffic to your website. That's the ONLY thing that can help you in the long run anyway. When you have enough of that and the visitors are satisfied, your Google rankings will likely rise up in alignment.

          Cutts said it in the article. People are doing it backwards.
          Barry,

          Two things. First, I think you are focusing on the lowest of the low as far as backlink builders are concerned. Yes Fiverr and WSO backlinks are offering mostly garbage and the kind of things that will cause you to do the 'rinse and repeat' sort of strategy.

          In that regards, I agree with you. Crappy backlinks are not going to help anyone build a long lasting business.

          However, if you can acquire links from other authorities in related niches from doing direct outreach, how is that a bad thing or a bad practice?

          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          People aren't going to link to those sites, either. Yepper, the gynecologist needs to pay for ads when he wants more clients.

          Same with a divorce lawyer. Heck, he can probably put his ad on the back of the public bus and on the Yellow Pages too - like he always has.

          There's no question many subjects aren't going to be popular. They aren't popular now and no one links to them naturally either. However, with a bit of creativity these businesses can still establish decent social media marketing funnels that will capture leads.

          Let's face it: the Internet wasn't built to help local businesses find more clients. The ones that put in enough time and energy will find them. But really, what difference does it make in the long run which "Dentist in Chatham" that Google puts in number one? In the end, they'll compete with the others on pricing/service and reputation.
          Barry,

          I'm sorry. You are wrong about this. People do link to these businesses. There are plenty of resource and information related sites on these topics that do link out. Is it much harder to find link opportunities? Absolutely. There are fewer possibilities.

          Social media is going to be fairly pointless for them though. No woman is going to post a Facebook message about what a great job her gyno did in treating her yeast infection. No guy is going to post that his proctologist was so gentle that he could barely tell he was there.

          But just to punt the idea of SEO because someone is a gynecologist is a stupid business move. Their competitors are ranking. If they are not ranking to, they are losing business. End of story.

          That would be like someone saying 20 years ago they had no interest in having their business in the YellowPages. It would be foolish.

          Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

          Google of course wants its users who use its services to find exactly what they are looking for - no easy task!!! With the search result data that can be accumulated these days and then you combine that with user Analytics data such as: bounce rate, returning visitor, how many times they visited, how long a user stayed on a page, how many pages the user navigated, and the list goes on. So, to me it seems to make sense that backlinks are just one of many strings to Google's bow. And in Google's eyes may be not as important as it used to be.
          That stuff is all nice, but you do realize that for most websites, Google has no idea how long a user stayed on a page, what the bounce rate was, how many pages were visited, etc. The best they can do is measure bounce rate off the SERPs. That would be someone clicks on a listing in the SERP, doesn't like it, clicks on the back button, and then selects another listing in the SERP.
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          • Profile picture of the author wipeoutmedia
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            I understand you are a bit new to SEO and I am guessing working with clients in general on their marketing strategies. I would strongly suggest you reconsider advising a client like this to abandon AdWords, even with a #1 organic ranking. If their AdWords traffic is converting, they should continue to do both. It is about branding. When a prospect does a search and sees your client ranked #1 plus an ad by the same client it gives more of an impression that this business or individual is an authority on the subject. I've done a bunch of testing on this. Funny thing happens. AdWords clicks stay about the same, but the clicks on the organic listing goes up. You will capture more traffic.

            Now if their AdWords campaign is just a money pit and not converting to revenue for them, then you need to look at reorganizing it or possibly scrapping it. That is a different conversation though....
            ________________________________________________

            That stuff is all nice, but you do realize that for most websites, Google has no idea how long a user stayed on a page, what the bounce rate was, how many pages were visited, etc. The best they can do is measure bounce rate off the SERPs. That would be someone clicks on a listing in the SERP, doesn't like it, clicks on the back button, and then selects another listing in the SERP.
            Hi Mike,

            Thanks very much for the advice. I have not set anything in stone yet, and I think you are right in saying not to get rid of Google AdWords altogether. You are spot on in fact, and I think I will only reduce the amount, but keep an eye on both listings every second day to see how things are going. I must admit it can be hard to track true conversions from AdWords, you know finding out if my clients clients are in fact clicking from a Google ad or through Google organic search. I do have code on the thank-you page to track conversions, and the form has a referral field, although I don't think people care for the difference even though I have spelt it out such as: Google Search, Google Top-bar or Side Ad.


            Thanks again!!!
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          • Profile picture of the author jxam69
            Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

            No guy is going to post that his proctologist was so gentle that he could barely tell he was there.
            I might have agreed if not for this: Proctologists Beverly Hills, CA
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  • Profile picture of the author chris_87
    @Performanceman,

    When do you think google will start weighing social factors more heavily in the search engine algorithms? Lot's of respected members here are still able to rank sites just fine without using social at all.

    And a good point someone brought up yesterday, some local business will have a difficult time building any social momentum. For instance your probably not going to be social sharing your divorce lawyer or urologist too much.
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by bluehabit View Post

      @Performanceman,

      When do you think google will start weighing social factors more heavily in the search engine algorithms? Lot's of respected members here are still able to rank sites just fine without using social at all.

      And a good point someone brought up yesterday, some local business will have a difficult time building any social momentum. For instance your probably not going to be social sharing your divorce lawyer or urologist too much.
      These 'respected members' you speak of - do they hide their websites like everyone? How can we be sure of any of their unverified claims? They never supply proof - only assertions.

      I mean let's face facts: current ranking best practices pretty much have to include:

      1) Strong website. Well written content. Additional content like slides, images, videos. The more original the better.
      2) The content is shareable and the website owner has a wide reaching authoritative social profile.
      3) The site has attracted plenty of incoming links, mostly editorially given by respected websites.

      All the elements are in place for a site like that to rank. All it will take is 1) some time and 2) a bit of marketing.

      Let's contrast this to current 'worst practices.'

      1) Slap together a P.O.S. site. Don't put time into it because you're in a huge hurry to rank another page.
      2) Backlink to your new page until your 'force' a first page ranking.
      3) Get turned in by your competitor.
      4) Lose ranking.
      5) Rinse and repeat.

      There's virtually no reason to focus on backlink building, especially for new websites that are under-developed. It's bad practice. Sure, you may force a ranking with enough High PR links, but it will be temporary.

      Social signals are important IMHO, but even more important is they send direct, targeted traffic to your website. That's the ONLY thing that can help you in the long run anyway. When you have enough of that and the visitors are satisfied, your Google rankings will likely rise up in alignment.

      Cutts said it in the article. People are doing it backwards.
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      • Profile picture of the author chris_87
        @PerformanceMan

        I agree with you overall; however, like I said I think it will be very difficult for certain local business. For example a gynecologist, divorce lawyer, urologist and hell even dentists. Business such as these, and other small business, are going to have a really hard time building any meaningful social momentum. People are not typically going to "tweet" share or "like" this information.

        You can make a great website as well, and hire a professional. But lets say you own several branches of your business in several cities within the same metroplex. Its hard to have "great unique content" that everyone wants to "naturally" build links to when your essentially offering the same service in every city.

        Social works wonderfully in some industries and sectors, but it seems like a big uphill battle in others and I think it would be a mistake to purely focus on social and ignore linking factors.

        Do you have any thoughts on this matter?
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        • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
          Originally Posted by bluehabit View Post

          @PerformanceMan

          I agree with you overall; however, like I said I think it will be very difficult for certain local business. For example a gynecologist, divorce lawyer, urologist and hell even dentists. Business such as these, and other small business, are going to have a really hard time building any meaningful social momentum. People are not typically going to "tweet" share or "like" this information.

          You can make a great website as well, and hire a professional. But lets say you own several branches of your business in several cities within the same metroplex. Its hard to have "great unique content" that everyone wants to "naturally" build links to when your essentially offering the same service in every city.

          Social works wonderfully in some industries and sectors, but it seems like a big uphill battle in others and I think it would be a mistake to purely focus on social and ignore linking factors.

          Do you have any thoughts on this matter?
          People aren't going to link to those sites, either. Yepper, the gynecologist needs to pay for ads when he wants more clients.

          Same with a divorce lawyer. Heck, he can probably put his ad on the back of the public bus and on the Yellow Pages too - like he always has.

          There's no question many subjects aren't going to be popular. They aren't popular now and no one links to them naturally either. However, with a bit of creativity these businesses can still establish decent social media marketing funnels that will capture leads.

          Let's face it: the Internet wasn't built to help local businesses find more clients. The ones that put in enough time and energy will find them. But really, what difference does it make in the long run which "Dentist in Chatham" that Google puts in number one? In the end, they'll compete with the others on pricing/service and reputation.
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          • Profile picture of the author chris_87
            Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

            People aren't going to link to those sites, either. Yepper, the gynecologist needs to pay for ads when he wants more clients.
            If you pay for adwords, and it drives traffic to your website and users seem to get what they need according to google (low bounce rate etc.) will that influence your ranking in organic searches? Now that google can see that people are getting what they want from your site and therefore must be a quality site?
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            • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
              Originally Posted by bluehabit View Post

              If you pay for adwords, and it drives traffic to your website and users seem to get what they need according to google (low bounce rate etc.) will that influence your ranking in organic searches? Now that google can see that people are getting what they want from your site and therefore must be a quality site?
              No. There's no direct connection for ranking purpose. There is an indirect link, though.

              You spend the money on PPC to test your website. Why? Because if your product sucks you have no need to move it to the SEO stage. Build your funnel and test with paid traffic to make sure your website works well. Add sharing buttons to make sure your content is being shared a lot. If it isn't, your site needs work.

              The indirect benefits all depend on what type of site you have. Is is a product selling site? A business site? Your objectives will be completely related to what you want your website to do for you.

              The backlinks will show up. I put up a new domain on May 22nd and haven't linked it once except for social shares. It had 78 backlinks as of yesterday. The site started getting the first few referrers today from Google. This site has 20,000 words so far and a tight sales funnel with a good design.

              None of those 78 backlinks are powerful, but they sure are 'natural' at least.

              When all is said and done it really comes down to the primary business need of the website. Go for targeted traffic and let the rest take care of itself, as long as your site is good and your content is sharable.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by bluehabit View Post

          Social works wonderfully in some industries and sectors, but it seems like a big uphill battle in others and I think it would be a mistake to purely focus on social and ignore linking factors.
          Well Blue here is the problem. Google has done a good job in brain washing many people into a false idea of why people link to other sites. They have convinced a lot of people - against the facts - that people link merely on the basis of great content.

          They don't.

          Go to any local search in particular and you will see this clearly. There are literally millions of websites that have links when the company has no great content outside of its business information, sales pages etc. How do they get them? In no particular order

          -From partner sites (people who do business with them or who they buy products from)
          -From relationships (friends, family, etc)
          -From niche directories and resource pages (state and city listings, professional associations)
          -from Google approved paid links -Yahoo directory, yellow pages
          -From unnaproved by Google paid links
          -From direct inquiries for links (by email)
          -From sources returning favors - local charities that highlight donors and sponsors, local businesses that want or already received a mention back

          You can see entire niches where these kinds of links rank sites and the links have very little to do with linking to great content. As would be expected by human nature people have more than one reason for linking. Frankly for many webmasters great content does not float their boat at all. They won't link to it unless theres something in it for them.
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          • Profile picture of the author chris_87
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            Well Blue here is the problem. Google has done a good job in brain washing many people into a false idea of why people link to other sites. They have convinced a lot of people - against the facts - that people link merely on the basis of great content.

            They don't.
            Yes I definitely agree, sometimes if you are fortunate to have content that fits the correct long tail keywords with lower competition you can build links organically. However, the whole "build it and they will come" mantra really isn't accurate in my experience. I spent a long time as a local small business owner really making exceptional content, I even shared some tricks of the trade. People didn't flock to my site or start building links.

            I think you are correct, google grossly overstates the way links are constructed in nature. It is not as simple as "create great content" and they will come. But of course this can happen sometimes, as I mentioned earlier long tail keywords or if you have a site that reaches critical mass and goes viral. At that point links do indeed begin building naturally.

            Maybe if google repeats "content is king" enough times people will start to believe it. I get what google is trying to do, keep it white hat and fetch the most relevant content. It just doesn't work the way they intend it to in some industries however.
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            • Profile picture of the author chris_87
              Just wanted to add:

              I even spent a good deal of time guest blogging for a big authority site in my industry and it really didnt help my rankings or links at all. I wrote the content, had to sign a contract stating it was exclusively theres from that point and it could not go on my website or be syndicated.

              And I was supposed to be rewarded with a dofollow link to my site. That didn't work, some of the pages I wrote for now being linked to, but later found out the site has some sort of global no follow on all links so I receive no benefit (I believe it was in the html or the way they constructed robots.txt)
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

        These 'respected members' you speak of - do they hide their websites like everyone? How can we be sure of any of their unverified claims? They never supply proof - only assertions.
        Pure crap. Seriously do you ever cease from posting garbage? Why don't you show us a serp where the sites rank with just social. because here is our proof

        Google

        Type in almost any search term and you will see sites ranking with links.

        What you got?

        1) Strong website. Well written content. Additional content like slides, images, videos. The more original the better.
        2) The content is shareable and the website owners has a wide reaching authoritative social profile.
        3) The site has attracted plenty of incoming links, mostly editorially given by respected websites.
        More hot garbage. Are you hoping a whole lot of newbs are reading you? Number 2 is a complete joke and number 1 is iffy in that no you do not need images, videos and slides to rank.

        Ton loads of site rank just fine with no social profile whatsoever and even bucket loads more without any "authoritative social profile". This is so bogus I can only imagine you are getting ready for a WSO.

        Of course there are bad practices in link building and crappy sites but to proclaim that because there are - link building in general is a bad practice is just silly.
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        • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Of course there are bad practices in link building and crappy sites but to proclaim that because there are - link building in general is a bad practice is just silly.
          I didn't proclaim it. Matt Cutts did - in the article you posted.

          He does not say anywhere that people should 'BUILD LINKS.' The WebSPAM team wouldn't need to issue so many penalties if link building was all gravy.

          Cutts explained it well. The great site comes first. The marketing of the site comes second. Then come the links which help boost search visibility. Nobody had to 'build' a single link in that scenario. They marketed the content.

          Contrast that to your own laughable, outdated methods. You take a crappy page. Then you run around to your couple dozen of 'aged domain fake blogs' and paste a link including the anchor text to the 'money page.'

          That's all fine and dandy, until your competitor turns in your backlinks and the PR gets deaded. If you don't think this has been happening consistently since Penguin 1.0 - then I've finally lost the little bit of faith I had in you

          Build links: get rankings for 4-6 months until an Animal update gets you.
          Market content: have low rankings for 4-6 months until you have a sufficient link profile and enjoy longer-term stable rankings.

          That seems to be the main argument. It's simply a shift in attitude.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

            People aren't going to link to those sites, either. Yepper, the gynecologist needs to pay for ads when he wants more clients.
            Rubbish. People link to those sites all the time. See my post above. Links are not just built for great content. You've bought the Google kool aid. Do a search sometime in the serps with a good backlink checker. Of course it might dawn on you that such links are not often built without some effort at link building but the greater majority I listed are all perfectly legit and even white hat.

            Same with a divorce lawyer. Heck, he can probably put his ad on the back of the public bus and on the Yellow Pages too - like he always has.
            So lawyers should just skip the net? Lol. Well lets hope no lawyers join your ahem "academy" or for that matter any business person.

            But really, what difference does it make in the long run which "Dentist in Chatham" that Google puts in number one? In the end, they'll compete with the others on pricing/service and reputation.
            So basically what does it matter if a company gets more leads from being number one or not? ROFL

            Anyway enough silliness from you for the morning. You are reduced to just lying anyway at this point. The choice is not build crappy sites and rank them or build great sites with great content but don't build links. Its build good sites AND do link building.

            So please continue the bared faced lying of claiming that I rank crappy sites when all my customers have solid one. What else can you do seeing as How Cutts himself has blown up your "google will penalize all websites passing on PR in contextual links"

            You will convince some newbies that had their sites taken out - mostly for crappy link building - but no one who seriously has any knowledge on the subject will buy into your social is all you need to rank garbage and only the illiterate will buy your Google is going to punish all websites that have followed guest posts. Cutts himself put the dynamite to that failed logic.
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            • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              So please continue the bared faced lying of claiming that I rank crappy sites when all my customers have solid one. What else can you do seeing as How Cutts himself has blown up your "google will penalize all websites passing on PR in contextual links"

              You will convince some newbies that had their sites taken out - mostly for crappy link building - but no one who seriously has any knowledge on the subject will buy into your social is all you need to rank garbage and only the illiterate will buy your Google is going to punish all websites that have followed guest posts. Cutts himself put the dynamite to that failed logic.
              I have no clue if you have customers at all, let alone what types of websites they have. You seem to be a person of limited experience in business and marketing. If I had to guess you've had very little success in life in any endeavor other than 'building links.' Therefore you should stick with it. I see no reason for you to evolve your thinking or for you to expand outside of your cocoon. You're better off defending your failed paradigm to the bitter end.

              One thing is very obvious to me. You talk a lot of crap but you haven't launched a website any time recently. If you had, you'd have a bigger insight into what's actually happening. But then you're a lot more likely to launch into a tirade then you are to launch a new project

              I have numerous examples of pages that are ranking on 2 month old domains with nothing other than social shares. Simple as that. I've proved it to myself by doing the work. Organic traffic has come as the result of social media marketing and not because of link building.

              Besides, you're the real friggin' liar here. You're the one who keeps on twisting words to say 'link building.' Your stupid comment about go search in Google and you'll see that the rankings have backlinks. No kidding. But that doesn't mean they BUILT them themselves. There's no need to bother with this crap. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

              In any event, the 'others' and 'history' will have to decide. But I suggest everyone actually reads that article you posted and not just your misleading thread title. Cutts lays out the transition from search to social quite well there.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
                Originally Posted by wipeoutmedia View Post

                Hi Mike,

                Thanks very much for the advice. I have not set anything in stone yet, and I think you are right in saying not to get rid of Google AdWords altogether. You are spot on in fact, and I think I will only reduce the amount, but keep an eye on both listings every second day to see how things are going. I must admit it can be hard to track true conversions from AdWords, you know finding out if my clients clients are in fact clicking from a Google ad or through Google organic search. I do have code on the thank-you page to track conversions, and the form has a referral field, although I don't think people care for the difference even though I have spelt it out such as: Google Search, Google Top-bar or Side Ad.


                Thanks again!!!
                It really depends on what type of analytics program the client is using. There are FAR better analytics programs out there than Google Analytics, but they are not free. They will track whether or not they sneezed while they were on the site. If they are using Google Analytics, you can enter in their AdWords campaign and it will separate out the traffic sources at least. As far as which ones convert to sales, kind of depends on the type of site and business whether or not you can track that through GA.

                They can certainly put less money into AdWords and more money into other marketing methods, but I always think that unless their niche is cost-prohibitive, they should be running an AdWords campaign right along side everything else they are doing.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

                I have no clue if you have customers at all, let alone what types of websites they have. You seem to be a person of limited experience in business and marketing.
                Seriously who believes you just because you say so? Its just an empty come back with nothing behind it. The "I haven't launched a website recently" laugher is the same. No need to respond further to that.

                I have numerous examples of pages that are ranking on 2 month old domains with nothing other than social shares. Simple as that. I've proved it to myself by doing the work.
                Now who is talking with no proof? Show us one. Seriously put some facts on the table so people can learn. I mean shucks anyone can say they have a site ranking with no links, no social, even little or not content based on some way out keyword or no competition. So what? Wheres the meat Barry?

                You stupid comment about go search in Google and you'll see that the rankings have backlinks. No kidding. But that doesn't mean they BUILT them themselves.
                Won't know until you look and its apparent you haven't or you would see plenty of sites with links that were NOT earned by the "great content" mantra

                But I suggest everyone actually reads that article you posted an not just your misleading thread title. Cutts lays out the transition from search to social quite well there.
                Sorry Barry I hope they read it too because anyone will see Cutts stating that links are still the best way to determine authority. Spin and spin but those are the facts. But hey you can always go back to lying about me linking to crappy sites or that I don't know or do anything but linking from networks. Thats always good for another go round.
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                • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Sorry Barry I hope they read it too because anyone will see Cutts stating that links are still the best way to determine authority. Spin and spin but those are the facts. But hey you can always go back to lying about me linking to crappy sites or that I don't know or do anything but linking from networks. Thats always good for another go round.
                  You don't know anything about anything as far as I can tell.

                  Link are still the best way to determine authority 'right now.' But nowhere at all does Cutts suggest you build these links yourself. You do, though. You are in violation of Google's Guidelines and your number will be pulled when you actually effect Google enough to notice.

                  Right now the fact that you're a tiny minnow in a huge ocean is the only thing keeping you alive for now. That's if you even are alive - or your 'clients' for that matter

                  You've pushed one agenda the whole time I've posted here. 'Build your own High PR network.' You're not evolving, man. You're a dinosaur biding time until your inevitable extinction.

                  But that said, let's let the people decide already!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

                    But nowhere at all does Cutts suggest you build these links yourself. You do, though.
                    Sure do and so do most everyone else in this thread. SO what? Not the point. Did you miss where I said its not a totally whitehat world? This thread has nothing to do with being totally Google complaint. The point is contextual links work and will continue to work for a long time to come despite your bogus claims this week that that is about to change. Can I help that you cannot connect the dots? No but I'll try and help you though

                    As long as Google is committed to contextual links being an indicator of worthiness and authority - and Cutts says so directly - then the algo will favor contextual links. No Algo in the world can determine human intent so who places them is unknown to the algo unless there are footprints or other signs. So that means that buying links and developing sites and linking from them will be an effective means of link building for quite some time provided they both are done properly.

                    Whine about it some more.


                    You've pushed one agenda the whole time I've posted here. 'Build your own High PR network.' You're not evolving, man.
                    None of us knows anything about each other but what is posted so if you have any honesty whatsoever you should stop with all these proclamations about facts you know nothing about. Ask any regular here and they will tell you we all have things in regard to SEO that we do not discuss much here.

                    Why? Simple. Its really NOT a whitehat board. Back a few years ago I did try and talk whitehat but those threads died and sputtered. Plus you are either lying ...again...or cannot read. With the inclusion of MikeF no one else has talked more about there being much more to professional SEO link building than placing your own links than I have.

                    Not evolving? HA, I'm in the early stages of doing a training series on Google authorship and working with a startup that facilitates getting links BASED ON GREAT CONTENT through a form of limited syndication

                    Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about on that either.
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  • Profile picture of the author luqmankyz
    Google simply can't ignore link building because people are using link building services. YES, Goolge can minimize the amount of juice they are providing and rely mostly on Google Plus. The much people +1 it on GPlus the much juice it will pass (maybe in future).
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    About those not so lovable niches....

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  • Profile picture of the author smodha
    I think what Barry is trying to say is that instead of implementing on/off page SEO, try other traffic sources that aren't reliant on SE rankings like social bookmarking sites, Web 2.0s etc.

    There are several paths to success. You just have to find what works for you. Mine is video marketing.
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  • Profile picture of the author godoveryou
    This isn't meant to replace Mike's answer - but I think the term 'link juice' muddys the water.

    The idea isn't to pull pagerank value (which is link juice) from Google+ but increase your sphere in influence so that others link to you from their own blogs. In other words, the link juice doesn't come from Google+ but rather all of the links from where other bloggers in your niche might have found value in something you posted.

    You get in these circles, post something useful... fun... interesting... but whatever is is it has to be easily sharable. They share it with their circles and so on down the line. Eventually you'll end up collecting links from people that have blogs that link to the post you shared.

    But like I said, that's not to replace anything Mike might say on the topic. Really it's just my personal opinion on the topic of link juice and social networks like Google+.
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  • Profile picture of the author OneManSEO
    Well that solves it for me!!!!!! Where can I go buy SENUKE?
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  • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
    I LOVE building links . It's all I do at work. It's all I do at home. It's all I do for my clients. Geeze.
    @mike I got two jobs now + my business :O. 4 - 5 hrs a sleep every day . But thanks to you, and several others it lead me to where I am today. Off topic, but thanks again. Same with you @mikefriedman.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

      @mike I got two jobs now + my business :O. 4 - 5 hrs a sleep every day

      What???? Two jobs and I didn't get a wedding invitation? Thanks for nothing my "friend". :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonB
    You had me at BOOOM!

    No need to say anymore!

    Great post and thanks for throwing this out there...Life is much easier...

    Holla!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jayden Rivers
    Link building for the win, today, tommorow and YEARS to come. As long as there is weight on contextual link building there will be ways to manipulate.

    And yes, not everyone builds crap sites, with crap content and crap links. There is no value there, at all, for anyone, esp the reader.

    But sites with valuable content, with CLEVER, SMART and 'under the radar' backlinking is one way that certainly works, very, very well.

    Now where has that social media clown gone?
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  • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
    Oh by the way backlinko, I've refined my skills and learned a couple of more things just from signing up to your list. Thanks bro!

    Super super super blessed right now. And this is just the beginning for me. I love to do the hard work, it's MORE rewarding in the end.
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    • Profile picture of the author Backlinko
      Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

      Oh by the way backlinko, I've refined my skills and learned a couple of more things just from signing up to your list. Thanks bro!

      Super super super blessed right now. And this is just the beginning for me. I love to do the hard work, it's MORE rewarding in the end.
      Glad to hear that! Thanks for subscribing.
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  • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
    Mike, as someone who has been a lurker of this forum since 2008 and a reader since even longer than I can remember (lets put it this way...I use to get spam email from Allen Says himself), you would benefit more from a more subtle approach.

    You definitely seem to have some knowledge and have shown that many times in your posts, but this thread is just projecting negativity. I really doubt if this is the way you want to advertise your services.

    There are many qualified buyers on this forum that are looking for whitehat, positive, 'what you see is what you get' SEO advertisers, myself included.

    Don't write off everyone you see here just because you seem to be in a bad mood.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Doug English View Post

      Mike, as someone who has been a lurker of this forum since 2008 and a reader since even longer than I can remember (lets put it this way...I use to get spam email from Allen Says himself), you would benefit more from a more subtle approach.
      Let me guess....You have a double account and are the guy I just told by PM that he should look for a job rather than asking me for the easiest and cheapest way to rank? (seriously only person I have ever had to tell that - guy said right up front he did not want to learn anything - just wanted it cheap and easy)

      Whether or not -

      Your post is nothing but flame bait. Please contribute something to the forums before giving lectures. I will take criticism from regulars who have offered something to this forum not by drive by posters and no I do not want your business so please leave out the argument that you would be one of my prospective customers

      A) I am booked enough
      B) I have yet to see a drive by poster who would be a good customer
      C) there are VERY FEW truly white hat customers willing to pay whats its worth on WF
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Let me guess....You have a double account and are the guy I just told by PM that he should look for a job rather than asking me for the easiest and cheapest way to rank? (seriously only person I have ever had to tell that - guy said right up front he did not want to learn anything - just wanted it cheap and easy)

        Whether or not -

        Your post is nothing but flame bait. Please contribute something to the forums before giving lectures. I will take criticism from regulars who have offered something to this forum not by drive by posters and no I do not want your business so please leave out the argument that you would be one of my prospective customers

        A) I am booked enough
        B) I have yet to see a drive by poster who would be a good customer
        C) there are VERY FEW truly white hat customers willing to pay whats its worth on WF
        AMEN BROTHER

        KICK THEIR ASS!!! SEABASS!!!


        EDIT:
        p.s send them my way, I have NO Ethics.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

          AMEN BROTHER

          KICK THEIR ASS!!! SEABASS!!!

          ROFL.. You seriously have to give Yuke a lesson on Image use.

          Yeah one of my pet peeves. People with a few dollars to spend thinking they are now in a position to give lectures because since they have a few dollars to spend you must want or need it (in this case someone who got their own site penalized). Prospective customer arrogance is no better than service provider arrogance.
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  • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
    Sigh.

    Sorry Mike, I tried.

    You aren't helping yourself with this rant.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Doug English View Post

      Sigh.

      Sorry Mike, I tried.

      You aren't helping yourself with this rant.
      ROFL...I get this from time to time. Sorry again - I am not looking for your business and I am booked. I do not need your help.

      It never fails - they just can't believe you would not want their money.

      P.S I turn away 4 times the amount of SEO requests than I accept. You are number two and its only Sunday. No SEO wants to work white hat on penalized sites. Takes too much just to dig the customer out of the hole their spamming history got them in to begin with.

      Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

      p.s send them my way, I have NO Ethics.

      There you go doug. Your prayers have been answered.
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  • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
    Haha. Wedding later. First got to help my parents. I still got to make sure I have time for my business. If I don't post any more, then I probably died or am burnt out or don't have time lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

      Haha. Wedding later. First got to help my parents. I still got to make sure I have time for my business. If I don't post any more, then I probably died or am burnt out or don't have time lol.
      I hear you bro - I just thought with the extra dollars there would be wedding bells.
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  • Profile picture of the author jxam69
    Ok - the plot get's thicker.

    BOOM goes the idea that guest blogging can't ever hurt:
    https://support.google.com/webmaster...er/66356?hl=en

    Now defined as a link scheme is "Large-scale article marketing or guest posting campaigns with keyword-rich anchor text links"

    Let the debate commence....
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by jxam69 View Post

      Ok - the plot get's thicker.

      BOOM goes the idea that guest blogging can't ever hurt:
      https://support.google.com/webmaster...er/66356?hl=en

      Now defined as a link scheme is "Large-scale article marketing or guest posting campaigns with keyword-rich anchor text links"

      Let the debate commence....
      There is no debate.

      Read it and weap:

      Buying or selling links that pass PageRank. This includes exchanging money for links, or posts that contain links; exchanging goods or services for links; or sending someone a “free” product in exchange for them writing about it and including a link
      Excessive link exchanges ("Link to me and I'll link to you") or partner pages exclusively for the sake of cross-linking
      Large-scale article marketing or guest posting campaigns with keyword-rich anchor text links
      Using automated programs or services to create links to your site
      Additionally, creating links that weren’t editorially placed or vouched for by the site’s owner on a page, otherwise known as unnatural links, can be considered a violation of our guidelines. Here are a few common examples of unnatural links that violate our guidelines:

      Text advertisements that pass PageRank

      Advertorials or native advertising where payment is received for articles that include links that pass PageRank

      Links with optimized anchor text in articles or press releases distributed on other sites. For example:
      There are many wedding rings on the market. If you want to have a wedding, you will have to pick the best ring. You will also need to buy flowers and a wedding dress.

      Low-quality directory or bookmark site links

      Links embedded in widgets that are distributed across various sites, for example:
      Visitors to this page: 1,472
      car insurance

      Widely distributed links in the footers of various sites

      Forum comments with optimized links in the post or signature, for example:
      Thanks, that’s great info!
      - Paul
      paul’s pizza san diego pizza best pizza san diego


      I would imagine Warrior Forum itself will soon face a ban because of the dofollow links that allow for optimized anchor text.

      Pretty much every tactic advocated by the garden variety SEO Forum idiots has been officially outlined. That means it's back to the drawing board for the WF 'gurus.'
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  • Profile picture of the author nik0
    Banned
    Lol, how is Google's bot going to know whether the link was paid for, in exchange for a free product or whatever.

    Personally I already focus a lot less on exact anchor text's so they hardly can use that as a signal as that the link was bought.
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