Major Google update?! Penguin 2.1

154 replies
  • SEO
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Hi everyone,

I've just noticed my website drop in almost every single position in Google.

Lots of top 5 positions lost, page 1's onto 2nd page and even 3rd and some rankings totally lost!

Anyone else noticed this?
#fluctuation #google #live #major #penguin #recently #today #traffic #update
  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Penguin 5, or 2.1 as Google is calling it, just went live today.

    Penguin 5, With The Penguin 2.1 Spam-Filtering Algorithm, Is Now Live
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    • Profile picture of the author MisterMister
      Just great, another google penguin update.

      Whats with all these updates, they are screwing with the system if it wasn;t broke why keep trying to fix it? the first time around google search was way better because you could do exact term searches and find what you wanted, now only big name sites will get ranked on the first page without even have the exact term just keywords.

      It sucks now, it seems these google spam team are doing this so they can seem busy and can keep their high earning job at google.

      I hope Bing can some how gain momentum in terms of search engine. problem is google already secured loyalty among searchers.
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      • Profile picture of the author jxam69
        Originally Posted by MisterMister View Post

        Whats with all these updates, they are screwing with the system if it wasn;t broke why keep trying to fix it?
        Because it is broke when people can spam their way to the top of the SERPs.
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      • Profile picture of the author PBScott
        Originally Posted by MisterMister View Post

        It sucks now, it seems these google spam team are doing this so they can seem busy and can keep their high earning job at google.

        I hope Bing can some how gain momentum in terms of search engine. problem is google already secured loyalty among searchers.
        I have been forced to use bing for searches more and more over the last year, Google seems to be more about "Authority" and less about relevance these days. I use the little drop down on my browser bar, and often forget to switch back to Google these days.

        The only problem with Bing, is they were never the proponent of the little guy....Google used to be, but doesn't seem to be anymore. So now nobody is.
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        • Profile picture of the author trade4861
          For once my websites seem not to have been hit, what a miracle!
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    • Profile picture of the author internalsoul
      Originally Posted by MikeFriedman View Post

      Penguin 5, or 2.1 as Google is calling it, just went live today.

      Penguin 5, With The Penguin 2.1 Spam-Filtering Algorithm, Is Now Live
      Cant believe they have done it again. After hummingbird, its penguin 2.1 now. Just checked the comments on searchengineland and seems like lot of websites has been hit. But have to wait for a week or for the dust to settledown before coming to any conclusion.
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by internalsoul View Post

        Cant believe they have done it again. After hummingbird, its penguin 2.1 now. Just checked the comments on searchengineland and seems like lot of websites has been hit. But have to wait for a week or for the dust to settledown before coming to any conclusion.
        There will be another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another...you get the idea

        Each 'algo change' will deindex or devalue more backlinks. Building backlinks is now like the task once attempted by Sisyphus, who was punished by the Gods for his chronic mis-behavior. He was forced to push a boulder to the top of a mountain. When he got close, the boulder would roll back down, defeating his efforts. He was condemned to do this for eternity - just like link builders
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          Building backlinks is now like the task once attempted by Sisyphus, who was punished by the Gods for his chronic mis-behavior. He was forced to push a boulder to the top of a mountain. When he got close, the boulder would roll back down, defeating his efforts. He was condemned to do this for eternity

          Thats appropriate. You confuse your fantasies with present reality so why shouldn't you confuse fantasies with historical realities.
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    • Profile picture of the author alyjoseph
      Thanks guys for all the info, i was wondering the same thing but how do we beat it. I don't mean to bully to the point but am glad they are doing their thing but how do we get past the system and reclaim our spot.
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  • Profile picture of the author rajeevsh
    Yep, Penguin 2.1. https://twitter.com/mattcutts/status/386231794883780609

    It also affects foreign keywords, etc. at the same time, I think.
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    • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
      Originally Posted by rajeevsh View Post

      Yep, Penguin 2.1. https://twitter.com/mattcutts/status/386231794883780609

      It also affects foreign keywords, etc. at the same time, I think.
      What proof do you have that foreign keywords were hit?
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      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

        What proof do you have that foreign keywords were hit?
        No proof whatsoever, I have one client in Denmark and none of his 12 sites were affected.

        Have to say that it were all professional business sites that had a lot of work put into them, not some 4 page local site or affiliate site type of thing.
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      • Profile picture of the author rajeevsh
        Originally Posted by GGpaul View Post

        What proof do you have that foreign keywords were hit?
        Tracking a bunch of keywords for Google France and almost all of them had their rankings shuffle quite a lot.

        Some of these are competitive, i.e. casinos, forex brokers, etc. and some pretty easy ones as well.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by rajeevsh View Post

          Tracking a bunch of keywords for Google France and almost all of them had their rankings shuffle quite a lot.

          Some of these are competitive, i.e. casinos, forex brokers, etc. and some pretty easy ones as well.
          Seriously?

          What do you expect with such cut throat spammy niches like that?

          You forgot about the payday niche.
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          • Profile picture of the author rajeevsh
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Seriously?

            What do you expect with such cut throat spammy niches like that?

            You forgot about the payday niche.
            Of course, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been affected. I was just replying to a member asking if I had any proof of foreign keywords being affected -- I just mentioned what I saw, no opinions. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author tdanz
    oh noo one of my sites dropped out of top 100 from #3.
    too many exact match and similar anchors to keywords...all other sites' anchors are mostly "click" here etc. and they are not affected.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    I checked a couple of my main keywords, nothing has changed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dmreed4311
      Ya I was hit hard and I really thought I did it right this time but I guess my anchor text was not diversified enough. I was ranking top 3 for all my keywords and the phone was ringing. here is my anchor text data, I only have 247 backlinks built over the last 10 months. Now my site is out of the top 300.

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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Originally Posted by Dmreed4311 View Post

        Ya I was hit hard and I really thought I did it right this time but I guess my anchor text was not diversified enough. I was ranking top 3 for all my keywords and the phone was ringing. here is my anchor text data, I only have 247 backlinks built over the last 10 months. Now my site is out of the top 300.
        The footprint on your paid links is kinda obvious.

        Example: www [dot] perfect-eyes [dot] info
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        • Profile picture of the author Dmreed4311
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          The footprint on your paid links is kinda obvious.

          Example: www [dot] perfect-eyes [dot] info
          That is not a paid backlink, I did not pay for any backlinks just PBN I did myself. Do you think it is that or the anchor text?
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Originally Posted by Dmreed4311 View Post

            That is not a paid backlink, I did not pay for any backlinks just PBN I did myself. Do you think it is that or the anchor text?
            Looks like a paid link to me considering all the different sites from all over the US.

            I see Virginia, Texas, Florida local sites, they don't look like franchise sites.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dmreed4311
              I understand that but it is mine and the backlinks to the sites in other states are actually other carpet cleaners that I know from a carpet cleaning forum I frequent. no money has ever exchanged hands
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Dmreed4311 View Post

            That is not a paid backlink, I did not pay for any backlinks just PBN I did myself. Do you think it is that or the anchor text?
            Take it from me DM. As far as Google is concerned a PBN is a bought link. thought does occur to me though. Would be nice on Google's part if they just secretly turned down the whole anchor text thing.

            Analyze the LSI of the linking page and then the content of the page linked to and count the vote/link on relevance not anchor text. Don't know but got to believe they would love to get away from anchor text.
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            • Profile picture of the author nik0
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Take it from me DM. As far as Google is concerned a PBN is a bought link. thought does occur to me though. Would be nice on Google's part if they just secretly turned down the whole anchor text thing.

              Analyze the LSI of the linking page and then the content of the page linked to and count the vote/link on relevance not anchor text. Don't know but got to believe they would love to get away from anchor text.
              It would be damn about time that they disabled this whole anchor text thing and give the link the value it should have, so purely based on the strenght of the link no matter what anchor text you use, even when it's an achor like "read more" or "here".

              What annoys me heavily is that they can penalize based on anchor text and at the same time give a keyword much more ranking benefit when the kw is being used in the anchor text. That's like a mice trap.

              Google is evolved enough to not need anchor text links to determine the relevancy of a page.

              That way they would also be released from those joking spam masters who manage to rank blank pages for competitive terms.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeadStartSEO
        Originally Posted by Dmreed4311 View Post

        Ya I was hit hard and I really thought I did it right this time but I guess my anchor text was not diversified enough. I was ranking top 3 for all my keywords and the phone was ringing. here is my anchor text data, I only have 247 backlinks built over the last 10 months. Now my site is out of the top 300.

        Your anchor text looks spammy since it all includes the same term over and over again. You have to have nude links meaning just the links ones without carpet in them.

        Something like this

        Cleaners
        brand name
        get dirt out of your carpet
        house cleaning
        click here
        make your house clean
        URL
        location
        learn more
        click here for more info


        You get the point, make them look natural.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by HeadStartSEO View Post

          Your anchor text looks spammy since it all includes the same term over and over again. You have to have nude links meaning just the links ones without carpet in them.

          Something like this

          Cleaners
          brand name
          get dirt out of your carpet
          house cleaning
          click here
          make your house clean
          URL
          location
          learn more
          click here for more info


          You get the point, make them look natural.
          Like I said in my above posts, keyword anchor text in links still gives a huge extra benefit to rankings. That's why it's so hard to use generic and random phrases in strong links, it almost feels like throwing very valuable links away. Sure it still gives benefit but you need more links to get the same results.

          **** Google from that perspective.

          Then other say: "Yeah but you have to dilute your anchor texts with weak links". Or in other words we have to build low quality links to dilute our anchor text. How messed up is that.
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          • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

            Like I said in my above posts, keyword anchor text in links still gives a huge extra benefit to rankings. That's why it's so hard to use generic and random phrases in strong links, it almost feels like throwing very valuable links away. Sure it still gives benefit but you need more links to get the same results.

            **** Google from that perspective.

            Then other say: "Yeah but you have to dilute your anchor texts with weak links". Or in other words we have to build low quality links to dilute our anchor text. How messed up is that.
            Pillowing is out the window now. Best practices are changing.

            I feel sorry for people who developed the link building tools or services. Anything other than pure quality is now completely unsustainable over a period of more than 6 months.

            The authority site strategy is now - build awesome sites, game super HQ relevant links, be terrified at pointing anything else at your site. Sad but true.
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            • Profile picture of the author BuilderX
              I too saw some very negative effects on my website.

              I was in the top 5 for 20+ keywords for the last months.
              now i am in the top 1000 for these same keywords lol...

              better laughing than crying... will begin to cry if it stays like that though.

              Checked on google if my website was banned but not at all, as i can still find myself ranking good with other various keywords, but of course these keywords are not the main ones my visitors used to find me.

              Glad to have found this Penguin 2.1 thread, at least now i know where that shit is coming from. I noticed this drop since yesterday, on October 4 it was all good...

              Going to wait... and check this thread every days to pick every of you guys fine tips
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              • Profile picture of the author mkensington
                Not a good day on my main site which I have invested in serious SEO for the last 3 months. My other site which is all my own SEO work is still fine but the niche is a bit less competitive. No penalties though so hopefully the main site will drift back up with attentive SEO work. Bit sad though as all seemed to be going fine.
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            • Profile picture of the author nik0
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              Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

              Pillowing is out the window now. Best practices are changing.

              I feel sorry for people who developed the link building tools or services. Anything other than pure quality is now completely unsustainable over a period of more than 6 months.

              The authority site strategy is now - build awesome sites, game super HQ relevant links, be terrified at pointing anything else at your site. Sad but true.
              Tell me about it, the last 2 weeks I've been insanely busy redesigning my monthly service completely so that people only get links from niche relevant domains.

              I'm glad I started before that Penguin 2.1 update launched.

              Although there are still plenty of sites that rank with zero relevant blog network links but who knows what Penguin 2.2 will bring right.
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              • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
                Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                Tell me about it, the last 2 weeks I've been insanely busy redesigning my monthly service completely so that people only get links from niche relevant domains.

                I'm glad I started before that Penguin 2.1 update launched.

                Although there are still plenty of sites that rank with zero relevant blog network links but who knows what Penguin 2.2 will bring right.
                Right, i think a big problem now is that pretty much the whole link building/tool service industry has been shifted from what is "grey hat and works" to what is "grey hat and only works for a short period of time".

                I've yet to see any services that can pretty much guarantee safety in today's climate. The only way to do that is to individually hunt out high authority links, on good relevant sites, then do whatever you can to get those. Algorithmically that's the only way you are safe.

                I predict over the next year, the link buying, link tools and link services will all start to suffer. The algorithm is shifting towards brand, authority sites, and thus making content much more valuable. High volume, large content sites and brands are what kill it today.

                Sure you can rank sites with purchased links from services and what not, but will they work long term? Personally i think the writing is on the wall (has been for a while) and sadly, its a scary proposition for hard working folks like you just trying to help people promote their business.

                I wish you all the best of luck, you might want to look for a new business model though, or something much more personalized. Generic high PR links will work, even niche targeted ones, but are they sustainable? Personally i think not. I am seeing all manner of grey hat sites go down with the last update.
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                • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
                  Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

                  I predict over the next year, the link buying, link tools and link services will all start to suffer. The algorithm is shifting towards brand, authority sites, and thus making content much more valuable. High volume, large content sites and brands are what kill it today.

                  Sure you can rank sites with purchased links from services and what not, but will they work long term? Personally i think the writing is on the wall (has been for a while) and sadly, its a scary proposition for hard working folks like you just trying to help people promote their business.

                  I wish you all the best of luck, you might want to look for a new business model though, or something much more personalized. Generic high PR links will work, even niche targeted ones, but are they sustainable? Personally i think not. I am seeing all manner of grey hat sites go down with the last update.
                  Agreed. I don't think it's going to take a year. There's going to be a 'run on the bank' for all these link building services and 'SEO tools.' Clients will be cancelling in droves. They bought the 'service' in order to increase rankings - instead their sites have been dumped.

                  Clients are gonna hate that. I also think you're giving 'nik0' way too much credit for being 'hard working' and for trying to help clients. He's really just attempting to grub cash from people who are too ignorant to realize his poison links will cause much more damage than rankings help. The fact they're 'relevant' is now his USP, and that ain't saying much.
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                  • Profile picture of the author nik0
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

                    Clients are gonna hate that. I also think you're giving 'nik0' way too much credit for being 'hard working' and for trying to help clients. He's really just attempting to grub cash from people who are too ignorant to realize his poison links will cause much more damage than rankings help. The fact they're 'relevant' is now his USP, and that ain't saying much.
                    Very few of my clients dropped due to this Penguin 2.1 update, I am just preparing for what the future might bring.

                    I also think you are kind of under estimating my clients. Half of my business comes from SEO companies that outsource the link building part to me.

                    Anyway I know that you like to discredit my services, not exactly sure why that is, I think jealousy plays a role here.
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                • Profile picture of the author nik0
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

                  Right, i think a big problem now is that pretty much the whole link building/tool service industry has been shifted from what is "grey hat and works" to what is "grey hat and only works for a short period of time".

                  I've yet to see any services that can pretty much guarantee safety in today's climate. The only way to do that is to individually hunt out high authority links, on good relevant sites, then do whatever you can to get those. Algorithmically that's the only way you are safe.

                  I predict over the next year, the link buying, link tools and link services will all start to suffer. The algorithm is shifting towards brand, authority sites, and thus making content much more valuable. High volume, large content sites and brands are what kill it today.

                  Sure you can rank sites with purchased links from services and what not, but will they work long term? Personally i think the writing is on the wall (has been for a while) and sadly, its a scary proposition for hard working folks like you just trying to help people promote their business.

                  I wish you all the best of luck, you might want to look for a new business model though, or something much more personalized. Generic high PR links will work, even niche targeted ones, but are they sustainable? Personally i think not. I am seeing all manner of grey hat sites go down with the last update.
                  It's a bit shocking but nothing that can't be over come I think.

                  I'm already playing with the idea to restore expiring high PR domains, that would mean less loss of links and more legit / diverse looking sites in the network.

                  Right now it's all niche relevant based on different CMS's, next step would be restoring sites to their old glory and becoming more selective in accepting clients.
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      • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
        Originally Posted by Dmreed4311 View Post

        Ya I was hit hard and I really thought I did it right this time but I guess my anchor text was not diversified enough. I was ranking top 3 for all my keywords and the phone was ringing. here is my anchor text data, I only have 247 backlinks built over the last 10 months. Now my site is out of the top 300.

        You can recovery this, you have much more chance than my site, which has over 3000 root domains pointing at it (all of them, i can tell you are unnatural).

        As a previous poster said, you will want to get mix up your anchors and if you ge t some good links, with varied anchors (ditch the spun stuff) you will recover from this.
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  • Profile picture of the author squadron
    Originally Posted by DateinaDash View Post

    Hi everyone,
    I've just noticed my website drop in almost every single position in Google.
    Lots of top 5 positions lost, page 1's onto 2nd page and even 3rd and some rankings totally lost!
    Anyone else noticed this?
    I have noticed the same thing for one of my test sites in the last 24 hours. A 3 or 4 page drop across the board. I'm just going to sit tight for a few days and see what happens. I've seen this sort of drop before and a day or so later, most pages come back stronger than ever.
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  • Profile picture of the author jspmedia
    yeah..according to Matt, only 1% total search..many of my sites got hit as well..this Sucks
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      For the first time in two years I have had one customer on one keyword get hit for a drop. I am actually hoping the drop sticks so I can compare it. The customer held steady on all other terms. One thing jumps out at me in terms of multiple links from a site (which was not intended but the setup on the site had a glitch). Worse the site was thin (due to the same glitch).

      Can't tell because it may totally regain all positions lost but will report when things work through.

      Anyway besides that one keyword Its been uneventful.
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      • Profile picture of the author atlanta2008
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        One thing jumps out at me in terms of multiple links from a site
        I see similar pattern on few sites that dropped from top3 to hell yesterday.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bent SEO
    I haven't seen a dip in any of my rankings whatsoever. Actually had a push on one that's super competitive, up to #4 now
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  • Profile picture of the author FranksToys
    Doggonit I got myself a penalty on one of my websites. This website though had been heavily spammed. I am surprised it took Google so long to do anything. I hadnt touched the site in ages and it had blog comment spam only.

    My main business site got hit with an unnatural link penalty ages ago and that site is now back to pre-penalty rankings. Difference is that I had linkdelete do a major link removal campaign a few months ago and had the penalty fully removed. At first I saw a slight recovery and now its back to pre-warning rankings with the latest algo.

    So win one lose one.
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    • Profile picture of the author atlanta2008
      Originally Posted by FranksToys View Post

      My main business site got hit with an unnatural link penalty ages ago and that site is now back to pre-penalty rankings.
      Did you use reconsideration form or just cleaned your BL and waited it out? I am assumingit was manual penalty?
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      • Profile picture of the author MuscleFreaks
        Originally Posted by atlanta2008 View Post

        Did you use reconsideration form or just cleaned your BL and waited it out? I am assumingit was manual penalty?
        Will a manual penalty show up in my webmaster account?
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        • Profile picture of the author Legit SEO
          I like how Matt Cutts always says "only 1% effected", every single time they roll out an update.

          Why can't he just be honest and say "we try to change up the SERPs as frequently as possible in order to get 100% of businesses to use Adwords"
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  • Profile picture of the author nik0
    Banned
    Penguin 5.0 just went live on the 4th of October.

    Penguin 5, With The Penguin 2.1 Spam-Filtering Algorithm, Is Now Live

    Threads at Google forum, every few minute a new person that tanked:

    http://productforums.google.com/foru...exing--ranking
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    • Profile picture of the author deezn
      my site just got whooped.
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    • Profile picture of the author himanuzo
      Penguin 5.... and Hummingbird...

      Make headache of spammers..

      Google is getting smarter.

      So you must follow its rules... if you want to keep traffic from Google.
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    • Profile picture of the author online only
      Me after Penguin update:



      SEO "experts" after penguin update:

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    • Profile picture of the author royalgalaxy
      social bookmarking is good or bad after penguin update?
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      • Profile picture of the author OneManSEO
        Originally Posted by royalgalaxy View Post

        social bookmarking is good or bad after penguin update?
        Unfortunately no. Google is now employing hitmen to assassinate anyone who tries to manipulate their search results.

        How did you not hear about that?
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  • Profile picture of the author seoout
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author SASA Techno
      Google Penguin 2.1 is launching today, according to a tweet from Google's Distinguished Engineer Matt Cutts.

      The first update to the second-generation Penguin algorithm designed to target web spam will affect "~1% of searches to a noticeable degree."

      Google Penguin 2.0 went live on May 22 and affected 2.3 percent of English-U.S. queries. When it launched, Cutts explained that while it was the fourth Penguin-related launch, Google referred to the change internally as Penguin 2.0 because it was an updated algorithm rather than just a data refresh.
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    • Profile picture of the author jadhavchetu
      Can u please explain me details "searches to a noticeable degree" means what.
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    • Profile picture of the author PROmotions LLC
      Meaning you basically won't notice any differences, and it only targeted roughly 1% of searches. So if you type in "cheap flower service" maybe some random guy at the bottom of page 1 or somewhere on page 2 has "dropped off" Very unnoticeable and people shouldn't be freaking out like this. Everytime Google updates their updates, there are 10 new threads that pop up. If your rankings dropped, chances are it was from some SEO that you did months ago.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      It affected a lot of IM type of sites once again. One guy in my niche dropped to page 4 while he survived for quite some time.

      When you look for keywords like "best...." "...... reviews" the results look a lot cleaner.
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    • Profile picture of the author danchito
      Google is really a pain in the ASS THESE DAYS
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      • Profile picture of the author jxam69
        Originally Posted by danchito View Post

        Google is really a pain in the ASS THESE DAYS
        No.

        Spammers are a pain in the ASS - Google is trying to fix the problem.
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        This space will be awarded to the first WSO owner who can prove they make Million$ from their methods.

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    • Profile picture of the author Deepakspy
      I agree with you friend Mr. Danchito
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  • Profile picture of the author Imtiaz Rayhan
    Penguin 2.1 update was released yesterday and my blog traffic reduced 57%.

    But today the traffic increased and it's back to normal again.

    Is there anything I should worry about?
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    • Profile picture of the author toplowongankerja
      Nothing to worry bro..Keep doing white hat SEO and you will save...
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      • Profile picture of the author V12
        Originally Posted by toplowongankerja View Post

        Nothing to worry bro..Keep doing white hat SEO and you will save...
        Do you know something we don't?
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        • Profile picture of the author MuscleFreaks
          We were hit hard with this as well almost all of our keywords are gone.
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  • Profile picture of the author DPM70
    Best white hat SEO for $5 - LOL

    Good luck with all the upcoming updates.
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  • Profile picture of the author sijugk
    Originally Posted by DateinaDash View Post

    Hi everyone,

    I've just noticed my website drop in almost every single position in Google.
    Lots of top 5 positions lost, page 1's onto 2nd page and even 3rd and some rankings totally lost!

    Anyone else noticed this?
    I have not seen any change in traffic. I need to check every keywords to ensure they are in the previous position. So far, no change.
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  • Profile picture of the author rjames
    You hardcore 'white hat' guys can continue to sit back and create your 'quality content' and hope everything works out in the end because thats what Google tells you...while us SEOs who actually know how to build links AND rank fast AND not get hit by updates make money at will
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    • Profile picture of the author koreancowboy
      Originally Posted by rjames View Post

      You hardcore 'white hat' guys can continue to sit back and create your 'quality content' and hope everything works out in the end because thats what Google tells you...while us SEOs who actually know how to build links AND rank fast AND not get hit by updates make money at will
      LOL care to elaborate?
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by koreancowboy View Post

        LOL care to elaborate?
        He's not going to elaborate...He's a super secret Dark Hat superhero who's probably off at his island lair 'ranking and banking' so hard he doesn't have time to reply
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        • Profile picture of the author online only
          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          He's not going to elaborate...He's a super secret Dark Hat superhero who's probably off at his island lair 'ranking and banking' so hard he doesn't have time to reply
          ... or just a random folk who tries to hide is frustration since his site got penalized by Penguin 2.1. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Legit SEO
    Just checked a local term, every result on the 1st page is different now.
    Somehow a zillow and yelp page are ranking above all the real business sites, lol
    1% my a$$
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  • Profile picture of the author nik0
    Banned
    With the Penguin 2.0 update Google said like 4% would be affected, most people on this forum hardly saw any change in rankings.

    Now they claim 1% and everyone is going totally crazy on Google's Webmasters forums so indeed 1% my @ss.
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  • Profile picture of the author Northy
    My main site has been murdered, I was on page 1 for 11 keywords, now im down and out on every one, not on the first page for anything anymore

    11 places
    6 places
    78 places
    7 places
    5 places
    6 places
    14 places
    9 places
    8 places
    23 places
    15 places

    Bit of a worry as it's a real commerce site that sells physical goods and makes me a very tidy sum of money, it needs to be on the first page for everything.

    Hopefully it's just dancing and will settle back down to where they all were.
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  • Profile picture of the author dynamyt100
    I run a flight booking site. Unfortunately I am too small to have my own agency so I make use of affiliates sites. Google has hammered me for this and I have now dropped out of sight. My content is good, my service offering is good so why should I suffer? I think the monopoly that Google has needs to be challenged.
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  • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
    I still think your missing the point slightly.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

      I still think your missing the point slightly.
      I don't miss your point at all but I work with low budgets and sourcing high quality links at authority sites is as good as impossible with clients in 100's of different niches.

      You can't get a link at an authority site by just sending out an email and offering a link in return. You need to build relationships with those people or offer them something really good that they would like to host.

      So my response was kind of based on replicating it in the best way possible and by restoring expiring domains or even better buying complete websites before they expire is kind of as good as it can get.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

        You can't get a link at an authority site by just sending out an email and offering a link in return. You need to build relationships with those people or offer them something really good that they would like to host.
        Thing is..............What does that even mean though? People throw around "authority site" as a phrase without any meaning o this forum. How many ranking sites get links from the likes of CNN, Adobe or even well known blogs. authority works on the flow of sites from link to link? How many sites ranking in serps have links from sites you ever heard of?

        I get the impression alot of the people who talk about authority sites needed for ranking (as separate from high PR,relevant etc pages) don't spend any time whatsoever looking at search results and checking backlinks. Instead they jump on the forums when there is an update that a few people are complaining about and then spout what they think or want to be the case.

        Meanwhile the serps disprove them entirely and conclusively but they don't ever check them so ignorance is bliss.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Thing is..............What does that even mean though? People throw around "authority site" as a phrase without any meaning o this forum. How many ranking sites get links from the likes of CNN, Adobe or even well known blogs. authority works on the flow of sites from link to link? How many sites ranking in serps have links from sites you ever heard of?

          I get the impression alot of the people who talk about authority sites needed for ranking (as separate from high PR,relevant etc pages) don't spend any time whatsoever looking at search results and checking backlinks. Instead they jump on the forums when there is an update that a few people are complaining about and then spout what they think or want to be the case.

          Meanwhile the serps disprove them entirely and conclusively but they don't ever check them so ignorance is bliss.
          When I think of it it's a typical IM thing that only applies to non business type of niches.

          Most companies get links from:

          - local and nation wide directories
          - dealerships
          - perhaps sponsorships
          - branch organization

          And sporadically some type of blogger might make a mention.

          Perhaps I should focus a bit more on that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

      I still think your missing the point slightly.
      No I think you are MMN...especially right here

      I've yet to see any services that can pretty much guarantee safety in today's climate. The only way to do that is to individually hunt out high authority links, on good relevant sites, then do whatever you can to get those. Algorithmically that's the only way you are safe.
      No you are pretty safe if you build those relevant sites too. Google for legal not technological reasons will never be able to determine ownership of 100% of sites. You of course will not see any service being advertised for that because somethings will and should stay out of advertisements. You are just confusing how many people do it today with how everyone does it. link building services are going nowhere. They will just evolve to higher states of sophistication and become more expensive. Mind you you are right on the link building tools. The GSAs (good riddance) and UDs are about to die but there was never any sophistication of scraping indiscriminate sites and then blasting them for links.

      Personally i think not. I am seeing all manner of grey hat sites go down with the last update.
      You may but I am not. I had one customer affected on one KEYWORD and thats it. Furthermore I know why and its completely understandable and correctable.
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  • Profile picture of the author kucloset99
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
    Funny its the people with services that are coming out to defend themselves.

    Now my argument isn't with them per se, like the sites i have ranking now that are not white hat sites, are basically sites where i have purchased PR links of some or another, within body content, looking semi natural, with non spun content.

    The stuff that has tanked is stuff where spun content is used for the majority of links. Also stuff like web 2.0's and "pillowing" of various links.

    Don't forget, a lot of webmasters are pillowing and using tiered link building. Its been popularized in virtually every SEO blog that reccomends grey hat practices. Now dont get me wrong, they work in short term and Google doesn't get them every time. But there days are numbered now.

    The serps i check are mostly iGaming (Casino, poker, slots type of thing). This is where a lot of aggresive SEO goes on and let me tell you this, there has been a LOT of movement with this update.

    That said, people who offer services where, they are sticking say content related to losing weight, next to stuff about finance. Those days are numbered and those sites will tank. Spun content will tank eventually, even if readable. The net is getting smaller and smaller, and the requirements to get away with stuff are getting stricter and stricter. I dont see how any of you can sit there, (who offer services) and say that you can be confident that this will protect your site and you will be safe in 12 months time. The risk factor is massive right now, denying it and not being upfront about risks is quite unethical imo.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

      Now my argument isn't with them per se, like the sites i have ranking now that are not white hat sites, are basically sites where i have purchased PR links of some or another, within body content, looking semi natural, with non spun content.
      So you ranked them in the exact same way as I do, high PR links within body content, looking semi natural with non spun content.

      So your days are numbered as well?
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      • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
        Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

        So you ranked them in the exact same way as I do, high PR links within body content, looking semi natural with non spun content.

        So your days are numbered as well?
        Those sites, will last a while, forever - i doubt it.

        Stuff with pillowing, spun content, anything automaticed has a 6-month lifespan at best.

        The only stuff that will rank 5 years from now will be HQ content (and by hq i dont mean unique, i mean useful, good content that answers keywords in the best way possible), on large sites, with non aggressive linking.

        This isn't white hat vs black hat. Its what used to work, what works now, and what is going to work in a few years time. The game is changing.

        The people i feel sorry for most are the hard working ones who have actually built out absolutely awesome sites, but are getting ****ed by algorithms because they were forced in to doing aggressive linking in order to compete. At least now, the playing field is being more leveled and what Google has been saying for the past 3 years is becoming more of a reality instead of just propaganda.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

          Those sites, will last a while, forever - i doubt it.

          Stuff with pillowing, spun content, anything automaticed has a 6-month lifespan at best.
          Well actually that still works for many but I don't dare to touch it cause of what the future might bring. I don't think it will take very long before Google gets a grip on that.

          Heck right now I know people who are extremely successful using spun content on their actual website, in combination with massive churn & burn, even these sites last for months.


          Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

          The only stuff that will rank 5 years from now will be HQ content (and by hq i dont mean unique, i mean useful, good content that answers keywords in the best way possible), on large sites, with non aggressive linking.
          5 years from now , there you say something. Getting free traffic from Google for a handful of years is not such a bad ROI when you look at it.

          I bet that when you purchase large domains that are in the expiring phase and fully restore them that Google won't be able to see a difference between a large site and a restored large site.


          Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

          The people i feel sorry for most are the hard working ones who have actually built out absolutely awesome sites, but are getting ****ed by algorithms because they were forced in to doing aggressive linking in order to compete. At least now, the playing field is being more leveled and what Google has been saying for the past 3 years is becoming more of a reality instead of just propaganda.
          I still have to find a legit site that got whacked by one of these updates.

          No one is forced to build links aggressively, greed is mostly the force behind it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post


          Stuff with pillowing, spun content, anything automaticed has a 6-month lifespan at best.

          .
          MMN I would agree with that. As well as the services that offer multiple niche links on the same page. Thats why I told Nik0 to get out of that kind of market. My argument with what you are saying is that you classify/conflate all "services" as doing that when you do not know what you are talking about.

          The new optimization will be no optimization
          Total nonsense. Thats just a thinly veiled way of saying that SEO (search engine optimization) is dead or dying like all the others who argued that for years. Ways that a site will be optimized may change but businesses will always optimize their sites for exposure and the INTER (interconnected by links)NET will rely on links for a very long time (waaay beyond five years).

          Dream on....without human signals (which are by nature subject to "optimization") Google will be unable to keep a viable search engine. Its all fantasies

          Creating sites you can be proud of.
          Again more empty assumptions. Its not create sites you can be proud of OR optimize. Its both. I don't even take MFAs or affiliate sites. See once again not all "services" are the same. Has it sunk in yet?
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          • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            MMN I would agree with that. As well as the services that offer multiple niche links on the same page. Thats why I told Nik0 to get out of that kind of market. My argument with what you rae saying is that you classify/conflate all "services" as doing that when you do not know what you are talking about.
            I agree with this. Not all services are the same. Stuff that is SUPER dangerous now will be:

            - Spun content in any form.
            - Pillowing in any form.
            - Links from sites with many many themes, unless they are super trusted.

            This basically rules out most tools and most services as being SUSTAINAIBLE, at least over a medium length of time.

            Obviously if you have very HQ written sites, with natural link profiles, which have content related to just one niche. These sites will stand a lot better chance of surviving as link sources. That said, exactly how many services are doing stuff like this? Most are not.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

              I agree with this. Not all services are the same. Stuff that is SUPER dangerous now will be:

              - Spun content in any form.
              - Pillowing in any form.
              - Links from sites with many many themes, unless they are super trusted.

              This basically rules out most tools and most services as being SUSTAINAIBLE, at least over a medium length of time.
              .
              Agreed...now all you have to do is quit saying "link services" and say some.
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              • Profile picture of the author paulgl
                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Agreed...now all you have to do is quit saying "link services" and say some.
                There are link services and then there are actual, link services.

                A fool and his money are soon parted.

                Sure, you can't always detect fools. BUT....just a little perusing the threads
                here, finding out what people say, reply, post, etc. will indeed give some
                clue as to who to trust.

                And if you don't know who to trust, don't buy.

                Reminds me of the fraud thread. How many came to the defense of fake
                review posting? Exactly.

                Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by webby0031 View Post

            Same on every thread talking complete trash.
            Who are you again? Anyway welcome to WF . We take all newbs. You are free to read and learn.

            P.S. Get your thanks count up and I may take you more seriously as a valued poster.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Make Money Ninja View Post

      Funny its the people with services that are coming out to defend themselves.
      Thats a sad tactic. First I don't offer link services or tools. Second are we to believe you are positioning yourself as a make money online ninja for no monetary purpose? There are plenty people trying to scuzzily position themselves within hours of an update to be the leader to the new frontier. Finally when you make statements that just are not accurate then whats anyone to do - give you a free pass?


      As a SEO using a network I had one customer on one keyword out of around six affected and it looks to be an easy fix.


      The serps i check are mostly iGaming (Casino, poker, slots type of thing). This is where a lot of aggresive SEO goes on and let me tell you this, there has been a LOT of movement with this update.
      Using the gambling/porn/payday loans serps has never been a good way of determining how SEO at large is being affected. A lot of scuzzy stuff happens in those serps and Google regularly targets some of those serps. In fact even this thread or even this whole board's response to updates is a good indicator since google clearly targets marketer's sites.


      I dont see how any of you can sit there, (who offer services) and say that you can be confident that this will protect your site and you will be safe in 12 months time. The risk factor is massive right now, denying it and not being upfront about risks is quite unethical imo.
      Don't be stupid throwing around your accusations of unethical because you don't understand the scope of what I said. All you did there was list the kinds of setups that YOU know about not that every service provider provides and pretend that you know it all. I can take you to some legal sites that you would not dream are network link sites because the sites are setup entirely legit with PREMIUM legal articles. They ARE safe as any site could be including totally white hat sites since they look and read and are setup as completely natural sites.

      Like I said services have and will evolve. The whole this is dead or that is dead is just the usual knee jerk reaction not any deep reasoned analysis.
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  • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
    Its not greed. Its cause and effect.

    3 years ago, all it took was some high PR links and you were good to go. You could rank crap first page and it would stay ranked.

    Over the last 3 years, the net has gradually gotten smaller and the requirements to stay ranked have increased. This update is the latest in a long string of updates that are targetting your business model and the business model of your clients that are ranking.

    I am not saying its impossible to rank these sites (its not). In fact, i still make several thousands of dollars per month with EMD sites, simply designed to exploit algorithm loopholes and bring in the cash quickly.

    These sites wont last. Purchased PR links wont last. In some form or another they will continue to work for several years to come. But in the end, they will all die a rather slow death.

    Lots of people will be having awkward conversations and changing their business model. Not because Google have told them too (this stuff has been outlawed since the start) but because the profitability of such ventures is being reduced with each and every update. Its no longer a case of Google says one thing, then the opposite works. Slowly but surely, what Google is preaching (create sites people love, dont game the algorithm) is working.

    In short, in a few years time, this industry will be dead and the only way to rank will be to create websites which people love.

    Go look at the mom bloggers who are creating sites for their audiences and are in tune with what they want. These people will look at you funny if you ask them about panda or penguin. Most of them don't even know what it is and just go on with tending to their sites, creating content and dealing with their audience.

    90% of the people effected by this stuff are SEO's or affiliate marketers. The new optimization will be no optimization. Creating sites you can be proud of. Its obvious the direction things are going.

    Am i stopping my EMD's? No, im still hedging my bets with white hat/grey hat.. but at the same time, its getting harder for the sites that exploit loopholes to stay around, and its getting easier for my high quality white hat sites to rank.

    This is cause and effect. And because the model is changing. Best practices will change. And you guys selling services will be screwed.

    You probably have a few years left, but you will be gone.
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  • Profile picture of the author zdebx
    MMN a lot of the things you're saying is true, however I believe no matter how advanced Google gets, there will always be people who will find ways to "cheat" the rankings and get their viagra sites ranked #1 for whatever terms they want.

    Sure, they will have to constantly monitor those sites and keep replacing them every now and then, but that's another story...
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    • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
      Originally Posted by zdebx View Post

      MMN a lot of the things you're saying is true, however I believe no matter how advanced Google gets, there will always be people who will find ways to "cheat" the rankings and get their viagra sites ranked #1 for whatever terms they want.

      Sure, they will have to constantly monitor those sites and keep replacing them every now and then, but that's another story...
      I am not even disagreeing with this.

      I am saying the changes that Google are making, are changing the viability of the business model. Actually building something non aggressive, that people like, is becoming a more profitable business model that aggressive link building.

      Lets example the options shall we:

      - Aggressive link building on authority sites: Stupid - doesn't matter if your site is super HQ, you will still get penalized by Penguin. And why would you increase the risk factor on a super HQ site with hundreds of pages of content.

      - Aggressive link building on EMD/throwaway sites: Still works in the short term if you do it correctly. The net is closing in. Mass link spam has a very short time spam (if it works at all... when i do this more and more sites are not even ranking at all.. whereas in the past they would rank 90% of the time). So in short, this works (although less often) and there are more and more pitfalls to avoid, more links to avoid etc.

      - Passive link building on authority sites: Virtually the only model for long term success. High quality sites with real followings. Ranks for long tails. Does'nt have to worry about penalties. Now easier to rank because more spam sites are being eliminated, either by spinning their wheels (links not being counted from grey hat sites) or by competition being penalized for aggressive link building.

      To me the choice seems simple. I am focusing 80-90% on white hat authority sites. With 10-20% gaming parasite sites (authority forums, youtube videos, EMD's, and web 2.0s).

      I feel like this is pretty damn smart. I dont think its longer viable to concentrate on just building out short term sites. I mean, if you can, kudos to you. But its getting to the point where its more profitable to just make something good.
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  • Profile picture of the author RandySwanston
    I feel pity for small businesses who are dependent on Google organic entirely.

    Here is one example:
    Google Groups

    The person speaks about going bankrupt due to this. :-(
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  • Profile picture of the author anilkamble
    yes the update seems to have caused a big problem for small business dependent on organic rankings
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  • Profile picture of the author daavidz
    Well, organic traffic is the best thing ever, but sure as hell, I would like to depend on it. Thanks for the link RandySwanston, it reminds me why I dont like google and organic.
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    • Profile picture of the author RandySwanston
      Originally Posted by daavidz View Post

      Well, organic traffic is the best thing ever, but sure as hell, I would like to depend on it. Thanks for the link RandySwanston, it reminds me why I dont like google and organic.
      Yeah, depending only on Google organic traffic for business and weeping later is of no use. Diversifying our marketing channels and getting business is the smartest way. Rankings are completely out of our control and all the websites on the web are like puppets in the hands of Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author markowe
    Dmreed4311, I see your PBN backlinks - I think it's nothing new Google devaluing links from those kinds of site, there is a clear footprint: very bland site with mostly text, each article around 320-380 words long. Even though you have added pictures, the anchor links are quite unnaturally placed and follow a typical blog network pattern. It doesn't even matter whether the owner of the site can be ascertained, I think Google has been working on ways of identifying this sort of thing for quite some time and you have to get even smarter about creating these feeder sites...

    (Just to qualify this, if a site won't pass a Panda update then is it a major stretch of the imagination to think that Google will begin disqualifying links from such sites?)
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  • Profile picture of the author rudradhar
    My site also got penalized by this update.

    From last 5-6 months I had not focused on link building, I had created all quality links, but then also I got penalized. My all ranking went from 1st page to 3,4,5,6, even my brand keyword also slipped down to 2nd page.
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  • Profile picture of the author koreancowboy
    My stuff moves up in ranking with every update, so I'm good. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author mumeeb1
    Same condition for me and one of my site ranking is totally down due to penguin update. Google's head of search spam announced it on twitter.

    Google Penguin 2.1 Now Live
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  • Profile picture of the author sarahjohs
    The update has really stroke more while equating the former update. But then, following Google's guidelines and White hat SEO why does the ranking been thrown off, not to the position of #100 to the least?
    It's quite unlikely to look through the search results for the sites that had ranked in the first page of Google.

    Got to read a statement in one of the articles saying that "Prefer a 301 redirect and make the old site to be redirected to the new domain. This would rather make the website been looked for a betterment..." How could this be a possible thing? Looks like its be an effete statement...
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  • Profile picture of the author submitinme
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author DPM70
      Originally Posted by submitinme View Post

      Well, none of our clients are affected by this update. A few has experienced increase in rankings as well. A couple of clients are affected. They were doing aggressive automatic link building in spite of our advice to stop those. Overall, no harm done.
      So, which is it?
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      I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build. - Ayn Rand
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkKapoor
    I think so this update is all about Long tail anchor variation. Google want to tell webmaster to stick with generic phrases and try to target some long tail phrases also.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dmreed4311
    My penalty has to be about the anchor text because my site still ranks well for "carpet cleaning" "carpet Cleaners" in my area but anything with "Tampa" in it has dropped off of the face of the earth. Luckily I have control of my backlinks and fixed the anchor text, I hope that will help me.
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    Carpet Doctor
    212 east Ross Ave.
    Tampa Fl 33602
    813-440-8335

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  • Profile picture of the author dannyboy123
    Lost a few places(around 5) on all terms when Penguin 2.0 happened 22 May


    Did a link clean up and sent the remainder by way of the disavow method on 13 August


    Seemed to drop a bit more on most terms after this so about 10 places down now on most terms.


    As we didn't have a manual penalty and it was an Algo one I was really hoping that a Penguin refresh ie Penguin 2.1 may get us back on track.


    This has happened though!


    Site is all unique content with twice weekly blog posts and pretty good social media interaction.


    Any ideas folks, could we still bounce back with Penguin 2.1?
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    • Profile picture of the author Newven
      Originally Posted by dannyboy123 View Post

      Lost a few places(around 5) on all terms when Penguin 2.0 happened 22 May


      Did a link clean up and sent the remainder by way of the disavow method on 13 August


      Seemed to drop a bit more on most terms after this so about 10 places down now on most terms.


      As we didn't have a manual penalty and it was an Algo one I was really hoping that a Penguin refresh ie Penguin 2.1 may get us back on track.


      This has happened though!


      Site is all unique content with twice weekly blog posts and pretty good social media interaction.


      Any ideas folks, could we still bounce back with Penguin 2.1?
      I am in almost the exact same position. Lost most of my traffic May 22nd. Since it was Penguin I tried to do a link clean up but there wasn't much to do since I don't actively build much. I emailed some sites that had my links on it that I never asked for and some replied and some didn't. My bounce rate is fine and TOS is good.

      No recovery yet.

      I don't think that even google knows what it's doing at this point. Not 100% anyway. Either that or they are giving out incomplete or misinformation to make us go through hoops to distract us from their real agenda - perhaps to get everyone to use adwords.

      I don't think we should start guessing or redoing anything. Just keep building quality like we always have done and try to rely on traffic sources other than google which is much more easily said than done.

      Some results in the google serps are fantastic and at other times (too often) totally bizarre. There is nothing brilliant or exceptional about Pengiun or Hmmingbird.

      ,,,
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  • Profile picture of the author mumeeb1
    I also hit by Google and my website ranking is down page 1 to page 9. We all know this is penguin update.
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  • Profile picture of the author dddougal
    Google seem to be guessing a lot with these algo's lately, my sites seem to have been randomly effected, some have completely vanished from the serps and others havent budged...Very weird, i use the same strategies on all of them.
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  • Profile picture of the author DPM70
    @MarkKapoor, you might wanna look at the anchor in your sig - unless you're still going for the 'ole misspellings' thing that doesn't work any more. Or maybe it's to keep your anchors varied to the correct degree - ya know, 32.7% keyword, 32.7% click here, 30.1% straight URL and 4.5% misspelled on purpose keyword.
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  • Profile picture of the author expresswriters
    No one knows what's really going on... hmmm it's a guessing at this point.
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    • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
      Originally Posted by expresswriters View Post

      No one knows what's really going on... hmmm it's a guessing at this point.
      I think this is the smartest thing anyone can say right now.

      NOONE knows wtf is going on. Some people will not be effected by the updates then preach that they know whats going on. Others will be effected by it and also preach they know whats going on. When imo, nobody knows wtf is going on.

      All I can say, I have NEVER seen keywords dance like this in my life. Half my keywords dropped 4-6 pages, the other half didn't budge. A few days later the first half came up a couple pages, then the other half went down. Then today its completely random, some keywords going back up, others going down.

      TBPO, its almost like Googles Algo took a hit of acid. I've seen keywords dance before, but I've never seen them do it in such a volatile, unpredictable way.

      Whats weird is on August 9th I lost a bunch of keywords (they dropped the same amount like 4-6 pages) then 12 days later they all came back up to page 1. There was no crazy shuffling like this. But then Oct 4th came and ALL my keywords have been shuffling like crazy. So I have no clue what is going on. I'm seeing no signs of stabilization, and everyday they're in completely different positions.

      -Red
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

        I think this is the smartest thing anyone can say right now.

        NOONE knows wtf is going on. Some people will not be effected by the updates then preach that they know whats going on. Others will be effected by it and also preach they know whats going on. When imo, nobody knows wtf is going on.
        Just because you and a few others don't know what is going on doesn't mean no one does. the greatest ABSOLUTE MYTH on this board is that if Penguin does not affect all sites with certain link patterns then those link patterns cannot be the reason for the changes.

        Penguin is no great freaking mystery. Its an algo that affects link building and its aim is to target link spam and manipulation of the serps based on links. Algos are not universal laws they kick in under certain circumstances and layers.

        This myth some of you believe in can be illustrated by the history of infectious disease. People never believed that diseases could be communicable through the air. Some people in close proximity to diseased people never got sick so people pointed at that and figured it could not be the case....but it was. It turns out those people had other reasons they didn't get sick. No one now says diseases are not communicated by airborne means. We Know that diseases are infectious through the air now and its doesn't matter fiddle sticks that some people never ever get sick even if you cough in their face. It doesn't prove that no one knows WTF is going on. It just means they have some other reason for immunity

        The serps and the algo are no different. 95% of this board is involved in spamming links. I had one site for one keyword that was hit too. I KNOW why. IT was a crappy site that we failed to build out properly. I don't look at that site and the other sites linked to from it that didn't get affected and say nah it wasn't that just because look they were not affected.

        It was the links from that crappy site. the fact that other unknown factors protected the other sites this time around doesn't prove anything. Smoking causes cancer. the fact that some people live to 90 who smoke does not disprove that YES generally if you engage in that you increase your risk of getting cancer.

        wake up! Most of you don't want it to be but sorry

        It IS your spam links
        It IS Your spun content trashy link sources
        It IS linking to sites from low thin content pages

        Keep hoping and praying other wise but its all for nought.

        the fact that not every site died means NADA - ZIP. Nothing in life is universal and the algo has things that we will ever know but yes I do know WTF is going on and I'll avoid you sneezing in my face and smoking for the rest of my life without claiming well this person didn't get it so thats not the pattern that will make you sick.
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        • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Just because you and a few others don't know what is going on doesn't mean no one does. the greatest ABSOLUTE MYTH on this board is that if Penguin does not affect all sites with certain link patterns then those link patterns cannot be the reason for the changes.
          Who the **** is talking about link patterns? I'm pretty sure I didn't mention a word about it.

          Once again, some idiot who spends 24 hours a day posting on WF comes in and shoots off his mouth like he can predict what googles next course of action will be. You have no idea wtf google is planning on doing 1 month from now, 3 months or 12 months or 10 years.. so STOP pretending because it is boring the crap out of people.

          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          Penguin is no great freaking mystery. Its an algo that affects link building and its aim is to target link spam and manipulation of the serps based on links. Algos are not universal laws they kick in under certain circumstances and layers.
          Mysteries, myths, algos, laws rah rah rah.

          If you build links, you are SPAMMING. So YOU, and anyone else who builds links for a living .... is a spammer. Thats my "universal law".

          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          This myth some of you believe in can be illustrated by the history of infectious disease. People never believed that diseases could be communicable through the air. Some people in close proximity to diseased people never got sick so people pointed at that and figured it could not be the case....but it was. It turns out those people had other reasons they didn't get sick. No one now says diseases are not communicated by airborne means. We Know that diseases are infectious through the air now and its doesn't matter fiddle sticks that some people never ever get sick even if you cough in their face. It doesn't prove that no one knows WTF is going on. It just means they have some other reason for immunity
          Disease and infections? LOL.

          You either have ADD or you are a complete recluse who never leaves his house.

          I'm a certified microbial consultant, environment consultant, CMI, and know more about disease, infection, mold, fungi and the bacteria in my shit then you know about how sperm reaches an egg. You are comparing apples to bananas.

          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          The serps and the algo are no different. 95% of this board is involved in spamming links. I had one site for one keyword that was hit too. I KNOW why. IT was a crappy site that we failed to build out properly. I don't look at that site and the other sites linked to from it that didn't get affected and say nah it wasn't that just because look they were not affected.
          "95%".... sure, you didn't just pull that number out of your ass.

          And congratulations, you had 1 site that was hit and know exactly why. What does that make you? Matt Cutts twin brother? A genius? A guy who doesn't waste countless hours everyday posting incoherent shit on a site called warrior forum?

          Or does it really make you a presumptuous, gun jumping, loud mouth?

          I'm no genius myself, but my instincts are leaning towards the latter.

          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          It was the links from that crappy site. the fact that other unknown factors protected the other sites this time around doesn't prove anything. Smoking causes cancer. the fact that some people live to 90 who smoke does not disprove that YES generally if you engage in that you increase your risk of getting cancer.
          Yes Mike, most of the world is well aware of this.

          You might as well tell me that grass is green, columbus sailed the ocean blue, and womens shit doesn't smell like perfume.

          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          wake up! Most of you don't want it to be but sorry

          It IS your spam links
          It IS Your spun content trashy link sources
          It IS linking to sites from low thin content pages

          Keep hoping and praying other wise but its all for nought.
          Great, you just made 3 blanket statements.

          And your persuasive abilities are right on par with the average car salesman.

          There is a such thing as high quality spun content. That type of content doesn't get a website penalized. And I can list hundreds of sites that have been around for 5+ years and use high quality spun content. Why isn't google penalizing them? Oh wait... because it'll happen next year right? Thats what I said 4 years ago. Over and over and over. And I'll be saying it 4 years from now.

          As far as "thin" goes, google doesn't penalize a site just because its "thin". I think you're just spitting out myths you've been reading on warrior forum.

          The only reason you think that happens is because the majority of websites just so happen to be thin, so naturally most sites that get hit will be thin. But thin as being a factor for being penalized... makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Thats like google saying "if you don't put more pages on your site I'm ******* your life up you little bitch".

          That doesn't make any sense. But if it makes sense to you, I'm not surprised.


          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          the fact that not every site died means NADA - ZIP. Nothing in life is universal and the algo has things that we will ever know but yes I do know WTF is going on and I'll avoid you sneezing in my face and smoking for the rest of my life without claiming well this person didn't get it so thats not the pattern that will make you sick.

          Your gross inability to use periods in your sentences is rather revealing. Its the trademark of a man who either dropped out of highschool or college, then spent the rest of their life posting random bullshit on an internet marketing forum.

          Please go back to your school, and have your grammar teacher fired. Because that bitch has ruined so many peoples lives its not even funny. My brain is about to burst just from your brainless analogies and run on sentences.

          Next time please try to be more concise like Yukon. I'm not saying type less. I'm saying be more concise, there's a difference. Otherwise people start assuming things. Like how you manage to afford an internet connection with all the drugs you're taking.

          -RS
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

            Otherwise people start assuming things. Like how you manage to afford an internet connection with all the drugs you're taking.

            -RS
            Its standard. when you blow up a person logic who has none they get all upset, rant, display their lack of vocab and potty mouth linguistics . Not like it is your first time coming off the railswhen your logic gets dismantled. Sorry I didn't even read most of that drivel. I just scanned through.

            Your gross inability to use periods in your sentences is rather revealing. Its the trademark of a man who either dropped out of highschool or college,
            LOL no in college you actually learn more complex sentences and um

            Please go back to your school, and have your grammar teacher fired. Because that bitch has ruined so many peoples lives its not even funny.
            Because is a subordinating conjunction and does not start a sentence when it doesn't have its own main clause - major blunder and right when you were trying to talk about people needing schooling. Rather embarrassing chap. However, yeah I skip periods quite a bit when typing fast. Doesn't save your crappy logic or your own grammar issues.

            but anyway Red want to run around crying no one knows. Be my guest and.....happy tanking with your "quality" spun content.
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  • Profile picture of the author joannlewis
    Some of my article posting sites went down from 4 to 0. And some of them increased the PR by 1. Can you believe it.
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  • Profile picture of the author hansnwcb
    Keep doing white hat SEO and you will save.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Google is a horse's ass. I could give several analogies but I don't want to waste too much breath on them. Here's the deal: They are a dog chasing its tail. They are trying to perfect something that can not be perfected. In their attempt to correct things that they deem to be broken, there will continue to be A LOT of collateral damage. There are hundreds of businesses that are now out of business thanks to Google. Some of them are my friends. They did nothing wrong. They are only guilty of trying to optimize their site to make Google happy. They were not the bad guys. But then Google pulls the rug out from underneath them and they died. It's like having a crowd of people and there are a few bad guys in that crowd, so they take out their machine guns and try to only hit the bad guys. But they're using MACHINE GUNS... so a lot of people are hurt and even killed in the process.

    Still think that it's all the bad guys and not Google? Still think Google knows what they're doing or has any integrity at all? Then why do unrelated Adwords ads still show up on pages where there is no relevance to that subject? Why would Google allow that if integrity was at the forefront of their actions? Why is re-targeting not controlled so that relevancy is still important in the page its on? Do you see the Google hypocrisy? Do you see the greed?

    And look who is showing up "most" of the time now at the top of natural SERPs. It is mostly deep-pocketed mega-corporations that have more money than most of us will ever see in our lifetime. Now where is the Google integrity? Did you believe all along this was simply about relevancy? No, it is about trying to get you through their paid channels. And anyone that's doing Adwords effectively knows that, in most cases, it is now a rich man's game.

    There is a well-written article on this from a top source. When I find it, I'll post the link.
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    • Profile picture of the author Newven
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      Google is a horse's ass. I could give several analogies but I don't want to waste too much breath on them. Here's the deal: They are a dog chasing its tail. They are trying to perfect something that can not be perfected. In their attempt to correct things that they deem to be broken, there will continue to be A LOT of collateral damage. There are hundreds of businesses that are now out of business thanks to Google. Some of them are my friends. They did nothing wrong. They are only guilty of trying to optimize their site to make Google happy. They were not the bad guys. But then Google pulls the rug out from underneath them and they died. It's like having a crowd of people and there are a few bad guys in that crowd, so they take out their machine guns and try to only hit the bad guys. But they're using MACHINE GUNS... so a lot of people are hurt and even killed in the process.

      Still think that it's all the bad guys and not Google? Still think Google knows what they're doing or has any integrity at all? Then why do unrelated Adwords ads still show up on pages where there is no relevance to that subject? Why would Google allow that if integrity was at the forefront of their actions? Why is re-targeting not controlled so that relevancy is still important in the page its on? Do you see the Google hypocrisy? Do you see the greed?

      And look who is showing up "most" of the time now at the top of natural SERPs. It is mostly deep-pocketed mega-corporations that have more money than most of us will ever see in our lifetime. Now where is the Google integrity? Did you believe all along this was simply about relevancy? No, it is about trying to get you through their paid channels. And anyone that's doing Adwords effectively knows that, in most cases, it is now a rich man's game.

      There is a well-written article on this from a top source. When I find it, I'll post the link.
      Well said. There are so many google a** kissers who never want to see any of what you just said. Please do post the link.

      Oh, and I would like to add that negative SEO is possible. I remember there was an article about that too where someone tried it - but even if there wasn't, all I'd have to do is buy some blackhat software and create tons of spammy links for my competition and then they'd get a manual penalty.
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      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
        Originally Posted by Newven View Post

        Well said. There are so many google a** kissers who never want to see any of what you just said. Please do post the link.
        I'm looking for it now. Hopefully I can find it.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      Google is a horse's ass. I could give several analogies but I don't want to waste too much breath on them. Here's the deal: They are a dog chasing its tail. They are trying to perfect something that can not be perfected. In their attempt to correct things that they deem to be broken, there will continue to be A LOT of collateral damage. There are hundreds of businesses that are now out of business thanks to Google. Some of them are my friends. They did nothing wrong. They are only guilty of trying to optimize their site to make Google happy. They were not the bad guys. But then Google pulls the rug out from underneath them and they died. It's like having a crowd of people and there are a few bad guys in that crowd, so they take out their machine guns and try to only hit the bad guys. But they're using MACHINE GUNS... so a lot of people are hurt and even killed in the process.

      Still think that it's all the bad guys and not Google? Still think Google knows what they're doing or has any integrity at all? Then why do unrelated Adwords ads still show up on pages where there is no relevance to that subject? Why would Google allow that if integrity was at the forefront of their actions? Why is re-targeting not controlled so that relevancy is still important in the page its on? Do you see the Google hypocrisy? Do you see the greed?

      And look who is showing up "most" of the time now at the top of natural SERPs. It is mostly deep-pocketed mega-corporations that have more money than most of us will ever see in our lifetime. Now where is the Google integrity? Did you believe all along this was simply about relevancy? No, it is about trying to get you through their paid channels. And anyone that's doing Adwords effectively knows that, in most cases, it is now a rich man's game.

      There is a well-written article on this from a top source. When I find it, I'll post the link.

      Relax with the drama.

      Nothing has changed, it's still all about plain text & quality links.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hrkjds
    If keywords' rankings have dropped, then try using best,cheapest,affordable,cheap,low cost,how,what etc with detailed search phrases, you may be ranking on top of Google search for which you are not ranking before or trying for..Google search have become more detailed..
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  • Profile picture of the author BennyP
    If you lost rankings it means you had poor quality links. I am not against black hat, but you really need to establish some quality that will survive deletion. Press releases, decent blog, squidoo lens, strong social media etc. I don't know why people complain about updates, you know how Google is operating now, don't try to work against them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Newven
      Originally Posted by BennyP View Post

      If you lost rankings it means you had poor quality links. I am not against black hat, but you really need to establish some quality that will survive deletion. Press releases, decent blog, squidoo lens, strong social media etc. I don't know why people complain about updates, you know how Google is operating now, don't try to work against them.
      According to google's guidelines, isn't that black hat?
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  • Profile picture of the author samjaynz
    Foreign language sites are definitely hit.

    I had a French site doing 250+ uniques a day with a few keywords top of page 1. After the update they dropped a few positions, and down to 100-150 visitors. Have lost another couple of rankings (still page 1 though) of 1 of those keywords, and now down to 40-50 visitors per day.

    The site wasn't converting fantastically anyway, so I don't care too much.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Just because your site/s drop doesn't mean the rest of the world has the same problem.

    I'm almost willing to bet most folks around here that took a hit in the SERPs have crappy link profiles, obviously they'll never admit they had a part in dropping their pages in the SERPs.

    [edit]
    Mike A. posted the long version while I was posting, lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      obviously they'll never admit they had a part in dropping their pages in the SERPs.
      I think theres a strong component of

      "I don't want it to to be what I did because if I do I won't have a clue of what to do next"

      Essentially what every thread proclaiming SEO is dead or dying is really saying is

      "I'm done . I cant think of anything else so there is nothing else."
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    There will always be naysayers and there's always a risk of speaking out because a lot of people will simply think that you don't know what you're doing or that you didn't follow the rules. Sorry but it's not quite that simple. I've been doing this for 14 years and even consulted large businesses on IM and SEO. One of my sites received upwards of 20,000 visitors a day and it was only a small niche site.

    But many of those that did play by the rules and/or couldn't adjust in time took big hits that they could not recover from or at least not recover from in time. Anyone that denies what's going on with Google either has their head in the sand or their pride is bigger than what's good for them.

    There's a lot people don't know. A friend of mine sent me some stats on one of our competitors that we share (name withheld intentionally). This company is huge. You've even seen their commercials on television. Well, guess what? Their traffic dropped over 35% after Penquin. You'll never hear about this, I believe because it's embarrassing to some of these companies. They no more want to admit that they lost that much traffic than they'd want to admit to getting a virus that exposed their customer's private information. Can you blame them? It would be a black eye on their otherwise trusted service. They're being paid to be the best and this would make it appear they're not the best.

    I've been studying as time permits. There are several examples of people that got hit HARD to no fault of their own really. Of course smaller sites can often adjust, especially if they only have a few pages on their site. But many of us have sites with thousands of pages and they were built over a course of many years based on the accepted norm in the seo industry. Not spam but things like copied and pasted content and so on. You can't just undo thousands of pages to meet the new Google expectations. You take a huge hit and suck it up. If there's any good news, one of those companies that is now gone was a direct competitor of ours. They are literally out of business like hundreds of others. If Google could be sued, you'd see it in the headlines right now, but I think you'd have better luck suing the government. Google has gotten too big. They've got way too much power.

    The argument of course is that, "Well, where would you be without Google?" and I think it's a valid argument. I've often said, "The Lord (Google) giveth and the Lord taketh away." and Google has done exactly that. But is it considered acceptable or either ethical to allow someone a vehicle to build a livelihood off of your platform and then pull the rug out from under them with few roads to recovery? With so many MILLIONS of businesses out there, simply telling them to redo their seo and change the way they've been doing things does not work. That's a one-size-fits-all solution and the problem is much, much bigger than that. And good luck trying to get anyone on the phone at Google to help you or contacting someone there. You might as well be trying to break into Fort Knox or trying to speak to the president.

    Here are the some solutions for many of you that are scratching your head trying to figure out how to please Google:

    1. Diversify or Die
    2. Stop feeding the enemy.
    3. Speak up about injustices. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      There will always be naysayers and there's always a risk of speaking out because a lot of people will simply think that you don't know what you're doing or that you didn't follow the rules. Sorry but it's not quite that simple. I've been doing this for 14 years and even consulted large businesses on IM and SEO. One of my sites received upwards of 20,000 visitors a day and it was only a small niche site.

      But many of those that did play by the rules and/or couldn't adjust in time took big hits that they could not recover from or at least not recover from in time. Anyone that denies what's going on with Google either has their head in the sand or their pride is bigger than what's good for them.

      There's a lot people don't know. A friend of mine sent me some stats on one of our competitors that we share (name withheld intentionally). This company is huge. You've even seen their commercials on television. Well, guess what? Their traffic dropped over 35% after Penquin. You'll never hear about this, I believe because it's embarrassing to some of these companies. They no more want to admit that they lost that much traffic than they'd want to admit to getting a virus that exposed their customer's private information. Can you blame them? It would be a black eye on their otherwise trusted service. They're being paid to be the best and this would make it appear they're not the best.

      I've been studying as time permits. There are several examples of people that got hit HARD to no fault of their own really. Of course smaller sites can often adjust, especially if they only have a few pages on their site. But many of us have sites with thousands of pages and they were built over a course of many years based on the accepted norm in the seo industry. Not spam but things like copied and pasted content and so on. You can't just undo thousands of pages to meet the new Google expectations. You take a huge hit and suck it up. If there's any good news, one of those companies that is now gone was a direct competitor of ours. They are literally out of business like hundreds of others. If Google could be sued, you'd see it in the headlines right now, but I think you'd have better luck suing the government. Google has gotten too big. They've got way too much power.

      The argument of course is that, "Well, where would you be without Google?" and I think it's a valid argument. I've often said, "The Lord (Google) giveth and the Lord taketh away." and Google has done exactly that. But is it considered acceptable or either ethical to allow someone a vehicle to build a livelihood off of your platform and then pull the rug out from under them with few roads to recovery? With so many MILLIONS of businesses out there, simply telling them to redo their seo and change the way they've been doing things does not work. That's a one-size-fits-all solution and the problem is much, much bigger than that. And good luck trying to get anyone on the phone at Google to help you or contacting someone there. You might as well be trying to break into Fort Knox or trying to speak to the president.

      Here are the some solutions for many of you that are scratching your head trying to figure out how to please Google:

      1. Diversify or Die
      2. Stop feeding the enemy.
      3. Speak up about injustices. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
      I get it, your pissed because your pages dropped, but Google isn't reading this thread so the rant is falling on deaf ears. If my neighbor gets a speeding ticket do you think I should stop driving my cars? I'll still drive, I could care less what my neighbor does, same goes for SEO or any other traffic source.

      The Google rant isn't helping to rank your pages. Shit happens, fall back & regroup.

      Check your links, the days of low quality links are numbered.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      But many of us have sites with thousands of pages and they were built over a course of many years based on the accepted norm in the seo industry. Not spam but things like copied and pasted content and so on. You can't just undo thousands of pages to meet the new Google expectations.
      That whole posts goes down in flames based on the four bolded words. theres nothing new about Google's expectations. They have been telling you for years that the "accepted norm in the seo industry" is not their expectation. theres nothing new about it.

      It isn't the bigness of google that makes them hard to sue. Its that you have no case when a company tells you not to do certain things for years and you do them. If you built a livelhood on those things because they didn't police it well enough that neither makes them unethical or culpable legally for now enforcing it.

      I am not a white hat guy. I build networks all the time but I just don't see the point of crying and complaining if google slaps me for doing what they told me not to do for years. DO I think they are generally anything but a business? nope. They outright sell the top spot in their organic results column and should be instructing no one about buying links to "manipulate their serps" but still - they do have the right to police what they said they were going to for years.
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Giftys if anyone depends on your buy gifts sites for their livelihood you would be better fixing your link profile than trying to find articles on the web and crying abut Google. Its not going to put any money in your pocket. I ran a check on your backlinks profile and with all the site wides and the almost identical anchor text it waves a red flag waiting to be shot
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      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Giftys if anyone depends on your buy gifts sites for their livelihood you would be better fixing your link profile than trying to find articles on the web and crying abut Google. Its not going to put any money in your pocket.
        You are really full of yourself. LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

          You are really full of yourself. LOL
          Giftsys get a backlink checker for goodness sake. it takes no one of any great skill to see that your bakclink profile is crap. I was doing you a favor by pointing it out to you. Don't want to admit it? Fine. Full of yourself is running around claiming the moral high and ethical ground over google just because they finally policed your site.
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  • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
    LOL... the only thing you're blowing up is your meth lab.

    And please lets stay on topic people.
    Topic being, I need someone to rank my new site.

    But not just any bozo, at minimum you must meet the
    following criteria:

    1) phd in spamming
    2) #1 rankings in less than 6 weeks
    3) rankings warrantied for a minimum of 12 months.

    If rankings drop on month 11 I get my money back or you
    get locked in a room with my vicious min pin.

    Whos down?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

      And please lets stay on topic people.
      Topic being, I need someone to rank my new site.
      ROFL...you are in multiple threads talking about SEO and you STILL don't even rank your own sites yourself?

      See now.......Thats what make WF one of the most hilarious places sometimes (period left out just for red) People who always have to depend on someone else or some WSO to rank heir sites but claim others don't know what they are talking about are amusing. Hilarious stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        ROFL...you are in multiple threads talking about SEO and you STILL don't even rank your own sites yourself?

        See now.......Thats what make WF one of the most hilarious places sometimes (period left out just for red) People who always have to depend on someone else or some WSO to rank heir sites but claim others don't know what they are talking about. Hilarious stuff.
        See, thats the downfall of this industry. I don't have to know shit about SEO, but I was still able to convince you that I knew a lot more than I really do.

        Otherwise you wouldn't be laughing so hard.

        And no, I don't rank sites. But I do spend a lot of money, spy on the people I pay, read, research and sell face to face. I can however rank youtube videos for virtually any keyword, that I'm good at. And my method for that is spam spam spam until the video ranks, drive traffic to a CB vendor.

        My main career is in direct sales / brokering. There are great salesman, then there are great marketers, and I try to align myself somewhere in between.... its a great way to make money. I think there is a HUGE gap between business owners and marketers, and that gap leaves room to make a lot of money.

        I was well aware of the risks I was getting into with my current site. And even with my site in a shuffle, I still made more profit than 90% of marketers on WF will make. So if I'm not making money for a few months it doesn't effect me. I won't stress.

        But I do need to evolve. I like the rank and bank strategy because its quick, earnings are huge (at least in my niches) and its a rush for me. But making new sites gets old after awhile. I'll still do it for the money, but my goal in the future is to diversify. A few sites done the way Yukon and you would advise, a couple sites done with spamming.

        I'll be honest, I've avoided all the "whitehat" providers because most of them suck. I've spent mid 5 figures testing lots of whitehat services. They're expensive as shit, and many of them don't deliver (maybe I just haven't found the right person/company yet). But for me personally, in my own life experience, I've gotten best results with guys doing hardcore blackhat. I'm not talking about your average idiot spammer, but the more "advanced" kind. The guys with huge private networks using scripts to block links from google.
        And all sorts of other shit I can't understand.

        Maybe my problem is greed. Cause for $99/month I had about 12 extremely profitable local keywords ranking on just 1 site. My latest site is following the same trend. #1 on google in 6 weeks, and lots of other high profit keywords are moving up. I know it won't last, but I will milk it as long as possible.

        Now on the other hand, if I had to pay someone with the skills of Yukon, or Mike Friedman, I'd be spending thousands a month. And I can't wait 3-4 months for your "clean", "whitehat" strategies to get my phone ringing once a week. I need someone who can get lots of keywords on page 1 fast, so I can make the high volume of sales I need. And I've only found that mostly with blackhat vendors.

        Take from it what you will.

        -RS
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post

          See, thats the downfall of this industry. I don't have to know shit about SEO, but I was still able to convince you that I knew a lot more than I really do.

          Otherwise you wouldn't be laughing so hard.
          ROFL now I am laughing harder. In the other thread on link building I told you just yesterday .you did not know squat so sorry - its so freaking obvious you fooled no one. I laugh at silliness all the time. So goes down another point about the industry which you know nothing about but love to rant against.

          And no, I don't rank sites. But I do spend a lot of money
          Oh well now theres an expert for you. Serial WSO buyers everywhere can rejoice.

          I was well aware of the risks I was getting into with my current site. And even with my site in a shuffle, I still made more profit than 90% of marketers on WF will make.
          Careful now we would not want anybody to get the impression that as you like to claim you pulled that number "out of your ass" seeing as how you don't have the first clue about what 90% of the marketers here make :rolleyes:

          The total hypocrisy meter just broke.

          I'd be spending thousands a month. And I can't wait 3-4 months for your "clean", "whitehat" strategies to get my phone ringing once a week. I need someone who can get lots of keywords on page 1 fast, so I can make the high volume of sales I need. And I've only found that mostly with blackhat vendors.

          Take from it what you will.
          Well you see thats just it. You are stuck in a rut like many marketers who swore, and as you do, still swear that life will go on with link spamming. I give you two maybe three years and you will be out of SEO all together complaining like Gift guy because of the "new changes" at google.

          Personally I doubt you had any experience with white hat SEos. Most people here have never ever used a good one of those and with your 3 - 4 month impetuousness and short sightedness I doubt you even hung around long enough for it to work. My bet is you bailed long before you could make any deternination on its effectiveness and that theres a good chance that they were not even white hatters. I don't know about Yukon but I doubt MikeF would label himself at white hatter. I don't even (although even though you used "you" I wouldn't want your business) consider myself a white hatter. Building networks hardly is white hat so where all this you and white hatter nonsense comes from I don't know.

          Pure Black hat faster? - sure used to be.

          However keep projecting the past into the future even after the present has changed the trajectory? That will work :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author PBScott
    1% ? Really? Most polls on the web are putting it at over 60%...

    Oh maybe they mean it only benefited the 1%
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    If you don't look at this => Really Funny Shirts <= you missed something in life

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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Mike, you know nothing about me. You know nothing about my success nor what's working for me and what's not with my many websites and ventures. You do seem to know a lot about bullying though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

      Mike, you know nothing about me. You know nothing about my success nor what's working for me and what's not with my many websites and ventures.
      Nice hand wave and deflection :rolleyes:. I Never claimed to but what I do know is the the link profile of the site that is in your sig. Okay then don't check your backlinks. I am sure that all this complaining about Google will do your site wonders in upcoming Penguin updates. Whine on bro....

      You do seem to know a lot about bullying though.
      If I am bullying for disagreeing with you then you would take the prize in that category. You are essentially trying to stuff down peoples throat that Google is unethical for policing sites based on criteria they have had for years and then making claims against people based on their disagreeing with you.

      If its bullying to tell you that whining about google isn't going to help a site then I guess you are easily bullied but thats your own issue.
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      • Profile picture of the author Giftys
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        If I am bullying for disagreeing with you then...
        No you're bullying because you're a bully. There's a big difference.

        "Bullying is the use of force, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively to impose domination over others." - Bullying - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

          No you're bullying because you're a bully.
          Thats some sweet convincing logic. Are you like ten? Where in this entire thread have you been bullied? Or are all posts that disagree with you and critique your logic just automatically bullying?

          I like Your sig though. I liked it even more after I read your trojan horse iron clad premise to ensure you are right and everyone else is wrong no matter what.


          Anyone that denies what's going on with Google either has their head in the sand or their pride is bigger than what's good for them.
          Sweet. we either agree with you or we are too stupid or arrogant. My way or the highway. You are right no matter what. Thats sooo humble. Remind you of your sig even a little? Sorry, I was not intimidated by your premise being setup to call anyone that disagreed with your assessment as stupid or arrogant. I am not that easy to be bullied (using your own definition).

          Anyway, I loved psychology when I was in college and I always found projection the most intriguing. Its when you point at others for faults you yourself have. I've just never seen it in a sig before. Learn and see something new every day.
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  • Profile picture of the author online only
    Funny enough...

    1) RedShifted goes and buys blackhat services to rank his site (combination of fiverr?)
    2) Google cracks them down (no wonder...)
    3) RedShifted calls SEO dead and whitehat BS (wtf? )

    Well, it's not a rocket science. If you use shitty links to rank your site then your site WILL dance, disappear, vanish, get tanked or whatever. And there's no need to think why. Just look your link profile.
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  • Profile picture of the author Newven
    I'm on board with Giftys and Redshifted.

    There are LOTS of people suffering on many different boards I read all with different personalities, sites and philosophies about SEO from pure white hat to blackhat extreme. All have been hit. How do you explain that?

    Also, building ANY kind of link can be considered black hat. Google wants 'natural' links and of course, all the top results in the serps right now have never done any link building right?

    ...
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    • Profile picture of the author online only
      Originally Posted by Newven View Post

      I'm on board with Giftys and Redshifted.

      There are LOTS of people suffering on many different boards I read all with different personalities, sites and philosophies about SEO from pure white hat to blackhat extreme. All have been hit. How do you explain that?

      Also, building ANY kind of link can be considered black hat. Google wants 'natural' links and of course, all the top results in the serps right now have never done any link building right?

      ...
      You said that "any kind of linkbuilding can be considered black hat". Well, I might agree with you but there are always two ends of a spectrum.

      People who blast their sites with shitty links and are more into "quantity over quality". Those sites tend to fall off the SERPs quite quickly.

      And then there are other people who hand pick sites with legit history, legit background, legit posts etc and get their links placed on them through outreaching. Those sites tend to stick on the SERPs.

      See, here's the difference. My sites have been on Google for over a year with no up/down fluctation at all. But then again, I avoid any kind of automation, I don't even use private networks nor rent links. 90% of my SEO strategy consists of creating valuable content and outreaching people.

      I doubt that sites that use strategy similar to mines fell off the SERPs. There might be a little percent of them, but then again, they might have been using shitty content or tonloads of affiliate links that can trigger Panda or any other algo filters.

      Saying that sites get vanished from Google left and right is just wrong... In that case, people are doing something very very wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author Newven
        Originally Posted by online only View Post

        You said that "any kind of linkbuilding can be considered black hat". Well, I might agree with you but there are always two ends of a spectrum.

        People who blast their sites with shitty links and are more into "quantity over quality". Those sites tend to fall off the SERPs quite quickly.

        And then there are other people who hand pick sites with legit history, legit background, legit posts etc and get their links placed on them through outreaching. Those sites tend to stick on the SERPs.

        See, here's the difference. My sites have been on Google for over a year with no up/down fluctation at all. But then again, I avoid any kind of automation, I don't even use private networks nor rent links. 90% of my SEO strategy consists of creating valuable content and outreaching people.

        I doubt that sites that use strategy similar to mines fell off the SERPs. There might be a little percent of them, but then again, they might have been using shitty content or tonloads of affiliate links that can trigger Panda or any other algo filters.

        Saying that sites get vanished from Google left and right is just wrong... In that case, people are doing something very very wrong.
        My sites have been on google for years and have always ridden the rollercoaster going up and down every couple of months with me hardly focusing on links at all.

        But the main point I want to make is that most of us don't have complete control over the links coming in. In another post I mentioned how after a few years I checked a backlinkchecker for fun and found hundreds of links from other sites I never knew anything about. A mix too of foreign sites, scrapers, blogs of all different topics. I never asked for them, knew about them or did anything to get them. How in the world am I supposed to get all those links removed? The disavow tool doesn't do much.

        I see your point about building quality links. That I have control over. I also have control over NOT blasting my links over thousands of blogs as comment spam.

        But ... what about my situation above? There are many people who have unwanted links.
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    • Profile picture of the author Giftys
      Originally Posted by Newven View Post

      I'm on board with Giftys and Redshifted.

      There are LOTS of people suffering on many different boards I read all with different personalities, sites and philosophies about SEO from pure white hat to blackhat extreme. All have been hit. How do you explain that?

      Also, building ANY kind of link can be considered black hat. Google wants 'natural' links and of course, all the top results in the serps right now have never done any link building right?

      ...
      You hit the nail on the head. Nobody knows what Google wants anymore. You've got some know-it-alls in here that like to bully the room but they can't answer the following. If Google does in fact have integrity:

      1. Why do unrelated Adwords ads still show up on pages where there is no relevance to that subject? Why would Google allow that if integrity was at the forefront of their actions?
      2. Why is re-targeting not controlled so that relevancy is still important in the page its on? Do you see the Google hypocrisy?
      3. Why are deep-pocketed, mega-corporations mostly the ones that are now showing at the top of the serps?

      Nobody can truthfully answer these questions and there's a reason why. Again; they've taken a machine gun to a crowd of people with only a few bad guys in it and there was A LOT of collateral damage. When a company the size of Google creates so much damage and takes out so many innocent people, there is no more respect for that company, ESPECIALLY when they don't follow their own rules.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

        You hit the nail on the head. Nobody knows what Google wants anymore. You've got some know-it-alls in here that like to bully the room but they can't answer the following. If Google does in fact have integrity:

        1. Why do unrelated Adwords ads still show up on pages where there is no relevance to that subject? Why would Google allow that if integrity was at the forefront of their actions?
        2. Why is re-targeting not controlled so that relevancy is still important in the page its on? Do you see the Google hypocrisy?
        3. Why are deep-pocketed, mega-corporations mostly the ones that are now showing at the top of the serps?

        Nobody can truthfully answer these questions and there's a reason why.
        Well first - who in this entire thread is arguing for the "integrity of google". Not me. You are hopelessly confused. They are a business that exists to make profit. End of story. NO paragons of virtue in my book and yes they do things that betray they are just looking for money.

        The point being made is you can whine,cry, name call, point, tremble in anger it won't change that they told you not to do certain things, you went with what was "standard practice in SEO" some of which was against their TOS and you got slapped. You have no legal case and you have no moral or ethical case. You like many marketers are crying because you got slapped. Also end of story.

        Now as to your points that allegedly no one can answer :rolleyes:

        1) Is irrelevant. Ads can be displayed anywhere on a business page FOR ANYTHING LEGAL without it being unethical. relevant or not. Its just total silliness to make an ad argument - that a company is "unethical" because they
        display ads. Sheesh at least make a good point by looking at the organic listing column but adwords????

        2) You need to explain exactly what you are talking about when you say re-targeting. Until then It can't be answered because its not specific enough to answer not because no one can answer it.

        3) "Why are deep-pocketed, mega-corporations mostly the ones that are now showing at the top of the serps?"

        Wikipedia is a "deep pocketed mega corporation"? they show up in more serps than any other.

        Do corporations and big names rank high a lot? Of course but there is a freaking obvious reason for that.......They get better and more links. They as brands/well known names with millions of dollars at their disposal are able to generate buzz by public relations, offline advertising and leveraging partnerships. They also can do something the little guy rarely can do - create news which goes viral.

        IF Pepsi says they are coming out with a new drink - thats news. If you create a new lemonade at your lemonade stand its not. Those are the breaks in the real world. More people will link to Amazon because Amazon is well known and had the backing of millions of dollars to get their name out there even beyond the online world.

        Oh and theres one other good reason why brands SHOULD rank a lot of the time over some marketers. They care about their image and readership.

        You will not find Adobe spinning content
        You will not find $10 articles on Apple sites
        You won't find some non credentialed, no medical training whatsoever, person writing about how to cure foot fungus on Webmd


        There thats two of your three unanswerable questions answered. Pretty easily too.
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      • Profile picture of the author FrankRumbauskas
        Originally Posted by Giftys View Post

        1. Why do unrelated Adwords ads still show up on pages where there is no relevance to that subject? Why would Google allow that if integrity was at the forefront of their actions?
        2. Why is re-targeting not controlled so that relevancy is still important in the page its on? Do you see the Google hypocrisy?
        3. Why are deep-pocketed, mega-corporations mostly the ones that are now showing at the top of the serps? [/B]
        I manage a lot of PPC accounts and can answer your questions:

        1. Because most people using AdWords don't know what they're doing. They use mostly, if not all, Broad Match keyword types in their campaigns causing their ads to show up for all kinds of irrelevant searches, as well as on irrelevant Display Network pages.

        2. Most AdWords users don't know what they're doing, set up one or more retargeting campaigns, and let them run wild. At a minimum I set my max ad impressions per day no higher than 10-12 so it's not so obvious to people that I'm retargeting to them. Whether or not to limit the ads to relevant sites only is up for debate, but it's a good practice to not make it so obvious that you're doing retargeting.

        3. Because Google wants it that way. AdWords users who spend over six figures per month get all kinds of advantages over small businesses like us, such as dedicated reps who can exempt them from the very same policies that would get us banned, etc etc. Likewise, Google will keep them on top of the SERPs to make them happy so they'll stick around and keep spending on AdWords, Google Apps for Business, leasing Chromebooks for employees instead of a competitors laptops, etc. etc.
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        • Profile picture of the author Giftys
          Originally Posted by FrankRumbauskas View Post

          I manage a lot of PPC accounts and can answer your questions:

          1. Because most people using AdWords don't know what they're doing. They use mostly, if not all, Broad Match keyword types in their campaigns causing their ads to show up for all kinds of irrelevant searches, as well as on irrelevant Display Network pages.

          2. Most AdWords users don't know what they're doing, set up one or more retargeting campaigns, and let them run wild. At a minimum I set my max ad impressions per day no higher than 10-12 so it's not so obvious to people that I'm retargeting to them. Whether or not to limit the ads to relevant sites only is up for debate, but it's a good practice to not make it so obvious that you're doing retargeting.

          3. Because Google wants it that way. AdWords users who spend over six figures per month get all kinds of advantages over small businesses like us, such as dedicated reps who can exempt them from the very same policies that would get us banned, etc etc. Likewise, Google will keep them on top of the SERPs to make them happy so they'll stick around and keep spending on AdWords, Google Apps for Business, leasing Chromebooks for employees instead of a competitors laptops, etc. etc.
          Thanks for your reply Frank. I'll differ with you on one and two. Obviously a lot of people don't know what they're doing with Adwords but it doesn't speak to Google's lack of integrity. Google DEMANDS that everything be relevant and that's why all these changes right? So, it's hard to take a company seriously that demands relativity but doesn't play by their own rules when it comes to [essentially] Adwords spam. There's virtually no enforcement of ad integrity nor penalties that I can see. Add to that re-targeting spam and it's the same thing. With re-targeting, you're literally stalked all day long with those ads showing up regardless of page relativity. Now all of the sudden search results integrity and relevance doesn't seem to matter? It's like telling your kids not to smoke and then lighting up a cigarette.

          On number 3, I completely agree with you. They have just completely sh*t on small businesses and went after the big money. What a shame.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by FrankRumbauskas View Post

          Likewise, Google will keep them on top of the SERPs to make them happy so they'll stick around and keep spending on AdWords, Google Apps for Business, leasing Chromebooks for employees instead of a competitors laptops, etc. etc.

          The problem Frank is thats no more than just a very weak theory that marketers like to float after being hit by an algo change. Doesn't make half the sense that marketers claim.

          Unless Google specifically tells the big brands - hey we will rank you if you keep google apps, lease chromebooks etc, then it makes little sense. Any company that ranks is going to spend LESS in adwords than if they didn't rank. But Google can't make theses promises because They would lose millions and even billions if those kinds of deals ever got out.

          Do I think Google likes brands? Of course. I would if I were running a search engine. Big corps don't tend to make trashy pages, They have solid and dependable return policies. They are less likely to be involved in illegalities, have qualified people writing their content, and should someone get burned by one of the big brands Google would share less blame for promoting them.

          Gifts argument that small businesses have it harder is true but not for the reasons he stated. its ALWAYS been the case. Thousands of mom and ops were driven out of the hardware business by Home Depot because people PREFERRED their prices, everything in one place, selection and dependability.

          LIke it or not there are lots of people like me that PREFER shopping at Amazon over a no name ecommerce site. I know they will delver. I know they have the infrasctructure most of the time to protect my credit card and I know most of the time they have better prices and wider selection. Sorry but a lot of the time its in the best interest of the user to have a brand rank.

          The good news with the internet is that you can still compete in many serps. You can outrank amazon with more smarts, more creativity and great customer service (and of course a solid SEO plan). However if all you are going to do is whine because you violated Google's TOS and got slapped then you will never overcome - You will just write rants against Google on Internet marketing forums, get upset with all that don't agree with your rants andgo outof business in a few months.
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          • Profile picture of the author papeter
            Google's numbers in their search results in Keyword Planner have been marked down by huge percentages in the last few days. Anyone else notice this? Is this due to the latest
            Penguin rubbish they are dishing out?
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  • Profile picture of the author Giftys
    Somehow I knew you would have all the answers. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author OneManSEO
    Yawn. SSDGU

    Same. Sh*t. Different. Google. Update.

    Thanks for the read, ya'll.
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