Getting slapped by penguin or panda? Heres why and why your Link Service might be your worse enemy.

37 replies
  • SEO
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We've spent a good amount of time on this forum talking about what we think are spammy links - forum links, web 2.O links, blog comments, blog network links etc.

We have even defined links as good based on pagerank or relevancy. Some have claimed that link spamming in Google's eyes is based on diversity etc

Though some of this matters its no longer how spam is defined by Google. Over the last few days of having people show me their links and looking at my own and how the serps changed its no longer viable to talk about these category of links as what defines a spammy link. You can have a network full of PR5 sites and pages and still have your links dinged by an algo as pure spam

Spam now is simple and more direct

ITS ANY LINK LEFT ANYWHERE surrounded by either no significant content, no relevant content or junk content. Its anything, to use the phrase that Google has over the years, that is not a good "editorial link"

Good editorial links IT TURNS OUT DO have a footprint
  • The are not surrounded or on the same page with scores of other editorial links
  • they are not on sites that have little or not content (seriously who writes a one page article on WP links to a page and calls it a day for the whole site?)
  • they have some surrounding related words
  • the sites the links come from on the whole are about something not about anything or nothing at all

and there are more that you can probably add.

That means not getting forum links or blog comments or profile links isn't that big a deal. YOU CAN AVOID THOSE AND STILL GET DINGED. I have seen people put links on high pr pages and get hit by the last algo.

All of them have one thing in common - the content on the sites linking to them was garbage, even spun content and some with next to no content - some just dropped links on pages and called it a day because the pages were pages with PR. Others did 100 -150 word and slapped the link on. They ALL WERE ABOUT NOTHING OR ANYTHING as an overall site.

Unfortunately some of them were even my own customers who listened to me when I talked about high PR domains but ignored me when I said stop spinning, and save some investment for content.

Why did they do that? Because content takes finding a good writer. or lots of time, or several 10+ dollar articles per site and marketers don't want to deal with that.

Content is the quality link builders greatest pain in the neck and no spinner, or scrapers, be they WAC, KontentMachine, SEO content machine, Spinrewriter, Word AI or scores of others has solved the problem or will anytime soon.

Content is the footprint Marketers just can't help but leaving and content is why your cheap link provider is your worse enemy. He/she cannot afford to have that content produced. He cannot automate that kind of content. He cannot scale it with automation tools

In other words he/she cannot avoid providing you with what will eventually (or now) not rank you - but will even tank you in some past, present or future algo change. Content for hundreds if not thousands of clients is beyond their capability to create in any quality and maintain the prices you wish to pay and they wish to charge.

SO the truth? You now need to control not only the content on your site but you also need to control/ ensure the quality of content around the links to your site regardless of whether its a PBN, natural organic or web 2.0s.

Simply just avoiding kinds of links isn't enough anymore. If you are not willing to pay for better content then get out of the game or go entirely white hat. If you are a service provider then put money away for a retirement if you can't or won't up your content game. Your customers will eventually cry you out of business as they get tanked by each coming algo.
#enemy #link #panda #penguin #service #slapped #worse
  • Profile picture of the author TolyZ
    And you got proof for all of this? Can you show us just 1 site with only "pure white hat links"?

    Here is what I see:
    Sites that used spun content for link building still ranking
    Sites that were spammed to death still ranking
    Sites with anchor text over-optimizaition and sitewide links still ranking
    Local results are now nothing but yelp and yellow pages listings

    Here is the kicker ... Google monitors the quality in adwords but they don't care about organics ... why? Because they want eventually more people to click on ads because eventually, they will provide better results then organics.


    I monitor over 300+ sites. I see no pattern right now. White hat sites hit, Pure Blackhаt some hit, but most are still remained the positions or jumped up, greyhat remained the same or jumped up, new sites with 0 links got a boost no matter of "content quality" or amount of pages.

    Another thing I noticed if you were ranking for local keywords, for example: "plumbing in cityname" you are now ranking just for "plumbing" if you are searching from that city and not for "plumbing in cityname".
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by TolyZ View Post

      And you got proof for all of this? Can you show us just 1 site with only "pure white hat links"?
      I realize given the kind of spammy links you sell it must be upsetting to read my post but at least try to read properly. I said not a thing about white hat links. In fact I pretty much stated that people needed to generate better content for their links so if they were generating the content and the links it would NOT be white hat.

      Here is what I see:
      Sites that used spun content for link building still ranking
      Sites that were spammed to death still ranking
      Sites with anchor text over-optimizaition and sitewide links still ranking
      Local results are now nothing but yelp and yellow pages listings
      Hows all that working out for the board? Time to up your game and stop trying to deny the obvious. Over the last year and a half ton loads of sites have tanked that had spammed to death links. Millions of unnatural links notices have been sent out many to people who have posted right in this forum about it but here you are as a link service provider pretending like that never happened

      You might as well say the sky is purple on a clear blue day.

      What people like you do is concentrate on some weak serps that you are not ranking in and you find some site with spam ranking and then say AHA this still works. Heres the 411 - some things will work in some serps for awhile when theres low competition because theres not much else to rank anyway. It hardly proves some universal point that all things are still the same. wake up! Its 2013 not 1999.

      I see no pattern right now.
      Then you are totally blind. First off my post doesn't deal strictly with October 4th penguin update which is why I was careful to mention Penguin and Panda and not name a particular update. its inclusive of where Penguin in general HAS BEEN going. This isn't new stuff .

      Second you are using the same tired thinking that has got people in trouble . They look and they see where some sites still rank and then they say - this still works " rather than seeing it as an exception. Then Google comes along with the next update and closes the exceptions a bit more and people cry and whine like wow why did this happen?
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    I've tried to tell people well over a year ago, If an entire site is about a same/similar niche as the money page/site it's impossible to say the link isn't legit.

    I know you guys like to jump on me because my sites pretty much target a single niche, but one thing I've learned while targeting a single niche with multiple legit content sites, the sites that link to me from links created by my traffic (not me) all have one thing in common, they're all sites with loads of same/similar niche web pages (across the entire backlink domain) full of every keyword imaginable that's relevant across the entire niche.

    Out of all the Google updates over the last few years, I've only took one hit for my main site which returned to normal (long term) rankings a day or two later, I didn't touch anything on the site/links, Google self corrected.

    Now look at domains that are only used for backlinks, they might be high PR but do they rank for similar keywords? Call me crazy but I think Google is smart enough to know a legit site. A lot of times the links my traffic builds, those pages trail my ranked money pages in the SERPs for same/similar Google searches, the backlink pages also rank even If it's a crappy rank position, even If the backlink page is only on page #2/#3/etc... of Google SERPs for same/similar keyword phrases. IMO there's a bigger picture than simply using PR domain/pages as links.

    I'm not bragging about surviving Google algo. updates (long term), I'm pointing out why I think my sites/pages continuously rank for years in Google SERPs.
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  • Profile picture of the author SoCal Digital
    I think Yukon and Mike are correct. It is just to easy now for the algorithm to find any kind of link used for SEO purposes.

    Let's just simplify things and forget about all the SEO tools, linkbuilding services, etc. and think about SEO from what 99% of the internet users think. A website on the 1st page of Google is relevant to the search term, has a great looking website, has meaningful traffic, a detailed Google Local Listing and interacts with customers on real social media sites/blog.

    Maybe as an SEO we should spend more time on those things rather than 80-90% of time on finding links.
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  • Profile picture of the author lotre
    in my limited experience i can tell you (in my very small niche) from checking a competitors site that they STILL spam the same anchor text repeatedly, very poor on page seo, spamming the page for mutliple addresses they work from - say 20 locations..for a local business??? wtf lol

    100% links do follow

    Just a poor site overall but still outranking everyone else as she has higher pr ( at last measurement) all the things google said wont fly anymore and its as clear as day they work. Probably wouldnt work in a more competitive niche but ive seen it with my own eyes
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by lotre View Post

      all the things google said wont fly anymore and its as clear as day they work. Probably wouldnt work in a more competitive niche but ive seen it with my own eyes


      This is a classic example of a misleading post. I really don't know what you are talking about. We both know you got slapped like a step child by an ignorant step father in the last update because of using a spammy link network and setup and you just completely left that out of your post .

      How you can say it works in your serp when you showed me just this morning your site and niche that got slapped is beyond me.

      This place gets freaking weird sometimes.

      Based on what I saw examining your link profile you have few good links and that competitor probably has better even after you take away the spammy ones which is probably why they rank and you don't.
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      • Profile picture of the author lotre
        Mike - i wasnt disagreeing with you! i was just stating what ive seen. I was just saying what one of my competitors is doing -i know my links are pretty dire and i thank you for helping point that out, I wasnt talking about my website not ranking i was talking about someone elses though.

        All im saying is that competitor doesnt even work in my area and yet as they put a crap website out which follows no guidelines at all yet they out rank everyone due to pr probably.

        I wasnt having a go at your post at all, you cant say anything about this person im talking about when you dont even know who i mean. And yes i admit i have some spammy links, but what ive realised is that the ONLY person ive got those from is a well known guy which i would imagine is partly why you wrote this post (apart from noob mistakes 2-3 years ago)

        Ive made mistakes with links in the past and even just recently, but im learning that you get what you pay for i suppose. As of 1 week ago i was around position 3 for my main kw, its only this last week that ive suffered so although my link profile was poor google werent so bothered until the last update.

        So actually your post title is correct but that still doesnt mean im wrong in what i wrote.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by lotre View Post

          I wasnt talking about my website not ranking i was talking about someone elses though.
          Lotre here is my point ...How in the world can you say as you did that spam works in your niche and serp when you just got slapped for it? People reading that would take away that you have evidence of it working in some serps and go and do likewise when you yourself did it and now failed in your serp. You can't see how misleading that is?

          All im saying is that competitor doesnt even work in my area and yet as they put a crap website out which follows no guidelines at all yet they out rank everyone due to pr probably.
          Their higher Pr IS a possible indicator of them having better links. PR of a site is not a separate issue. Its a measurement of link quality. You may well see some spam and then see with a closer look that it is offset by better links. Not every site with spam is going to go down. Those links can be discounted by Google and the site rank for other reasons including other links in the profile..
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  • Profile picture of the author johnbrown12
    I do agree with Mike here
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  • Profile picture of the author joshinaustin
    Agreed Mike.

    I can back this up with what JUST happened with the last 72 hours to several of my websites. I do online/offline both - I have 20+ clients, and own a number of online businesses & several dozen lead gen sites.

    4 of my sites were hit, all 4 of which had very natural looking link profiles, lots and lots of anchor text diversity. I am pretty positive that the blog network took a hit.. (a very new, popular link building service a lot of you likely know, that I won't mention here) - All 4 sites within that network, all completely unrelated sites in different niches ALL RANKING Page 1 for most targeted terms... TANKED. 1 of the 4 sites in this network/link building program is looming around page 2-3.. which is salvageable. I attribute this to the website only getting links for around 40 days, only 15-20 indexed links, with a lot of good prior links build, so not as much damage was done as the other 3 websites that have been in this link building service for the last 6 months. These 3 sites have gone into oblivion, I'm talking like 100+ from page 1. I really want to name the service, but I don't think it is the right thing to do, and I like the guys.

    What is funny... in addition to this, is that two websites I have been working on reversing a penalty: traffic increased 2X+ than the historical averages for the last 6 months. Those websites have also regained rankings almost over night after this update. This I attribute to not just focusing on links, but video, creating better engaging content that keeps users onsite for longer which reduces bounce rates as well, and not just focusing on god forsaken do-follow anchor text back links.

    Some things I can definitely say with confidence based on my own personal data from the last several days (Yes some of these obvious, and same as previous Penguin updates):

    1) Big hits to websites that point most links to home page
    2) Link building services with their own high PR blog networks that claim to be safe (Google slap free) - are obviously not immune. (Even if run by very successful and reputable IM/SEO "Gurus"
    3) Even idealistic link profiles with diversified anchor text are not safe
    4) Links on non-relevant pages, even if they are High PR (4,5,6)
    5) Spammy sites, with bare links that have no content

    You live, and you learn. Those of you who adjust and adapt to the changes, will have a much better chance. Hope my personal experience can help some of you do so.

    Best,

    Josh
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMI
      It seems to me like the last bastion of hope where link building is concerned is to contact people in your niche and ask if you can guest post for them.

      I really think that I'm going to just focus on that form of link building from now on. Maybe the answer is that one has to get back to the basics and just pick up a phone and call someone. Not email. A real, live phone call.
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      • Profile picture of the author lotre
        I couldnt agree more Brian, ive been doing just that last night to try and get some decent links to my site, its slow but its 'real' i suppose.
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      • Profile picture of the author online only
        Originally Posted by BrianMI View Post

        It seems to me like the last bastion of hope where link building is concerned is to contact people in your niche and ask if you can guest post for them.

        I really think that I'm going to just focus on that form of link building from now on. Maybe the answer is that one has to get back to the basics and just pick up a phone and call someone. Not email. A real, live phone call.
        You don't necessarily need to guest post. Sometimes you can make a good post/guide/infographic on your own site and suggest it to other webmasters in the same niche. If they like it, they will add your link to their blogposts/resource pages etc. You just have to choose the right approach, but it won't work in some niches.
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  • Profile picture of the author lotre
    Hi

    Lo Mike Im not trying to mislead anyone, im saying their onpage seo is spammy. The only thing i said about their links is they are all do follow. Its not their links im really getting at, its more the fact that even though a page has about 40 obl i.e trying to cover EVERYTHING and just putting a crap page out to do the absolute minimum they rank better than people who work hard on stuff like title tags etc but then get let down by buying crappy link networks

    Yes i have crappy links im working on getting removed but ive been penalised and google wont penalise someone who is just trying to spam results pages with " i cover every town" and "every problem you have"

    it just p*sses me off that google take that view

    cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by lotre View Post

      Yes i have crappy links im working on getting removed but ive been penalised and google wont penalise someone who is just trying to spam results pages with " i cover every town" and "every problem you have"

      it just p*sses me off that google take that view

      cheers
      I hear you man. Its the old they smell worse than me so its not fair defense. Btw not sure but I think I know what site you are talking about and its not that bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author drem
    I fully agree with your statement. I think this is more about people wanting to build fast, money-making sites, versus those that want to build a true business out of their endeavors. If the article that links back to a site provides substance and is actually readable, it has to hold more weight, or it will eventually. Not only will it be beneficial in the eyes of Google, but it will also look natural. However, there are many people simply not willing to pay for higher quality content, which will eventually lead to their failure, or them trying to recover from updates every few months.
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  • Profile picture of the author ericnyc
    What happened to my post/question?
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  • Profile picture of the author markowe
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    If you are not willing to pay for better content then get out of the game or go entirely white hat. If you are a service provider then put money away for a retirement if you can't or won't up your content game. Your customers will eventually cry you out of business as they get tanked by each coming algo.
    "It's official, Mike A says content is king"
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by markowe View Post

      "It's official, Mike A says content is king"

      Its official, Mike A says LINKS within content is king.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
    I learn my lessons like everyone. The hard way.

    And I abused a lot of my network with BS content and half assed set ups. And after you set them all up and it starts ranking your site. You think damn I'm a sitting duck up here with this BS network holding me up. If anyone just looked they would be easily able to report me and bam, bye bye network.

    If your going to spend good money buying a domain. You should auto include some good money to renovate, improve and expand it.
    You can do the content yourself.
    You could use Ranking-Articles @ $7 - 1000 words
    You could use Textbrokers @ Varying Rates (Highly Reco)

    But the point is you should be protecting your investment. Not to mention monetizing your network also.

    However,
    I have included content costings in any SEO quotes I have given for almost 2 years now. So I'm happy to hear I'm on the edge of the curve
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

      You could use Ranking-Articles @ $7 - 1000 words
      Lol that's even cheaper then what I pay.

      I don't think Mike meant that as quality content
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Maguire
        Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

        Lol that's even cheaper then what I pay.

        I don't think Mike meant that as quality content
        For sure, But I've ranked pages with that same content. Its $7, if only to edit, and correct a bit of grammar. Its a poor mans option that will pass a human eye.

        But each to their own. I use my brother and sister. €20 for 1000 words, great quality well researched. And I just spent $200 on textbrokers for 6 articles for 2 of my network sites. When people can afford to do that kind of investing great. When they can't there is ranking-articles.com $7 specials.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kevin Maguire View Post

          For sure, But I've ranked pages with that same content. Its $7, if only to edit, and correct a bit of grammar. Its a poor mans option that will pass a human eye.

          But each to their own. I use my brother and sister. €20 for 1000 words, great quality well researched. And I just spent $200 on textbrokers for 6 articles for 2 of my network sites. When people can afford to do that kind of investing great. When they can't there is ranking-articles.com $7 specials.
          I ain't saying it won't work, I still own a very well ranking site where I used $2/500 word articles. It's total crap when you read it but it's my biggest money making site lol.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Actually Nik I have found some decent to good writers at hirewriters.com at that price. Thing is I let them write about their own experiences. I am not saying you will get great articles right off the bat, but you turn down who you have to, and then slowly detect the good ones and favorite them for future work.

            I tried the whole article about this keyword and that keyword and once you take a step back and read some on sites you realize - its fooling no one,
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            • Profile picture of the author nik0
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              I tried the whole article about this keyword and that keyword and once you take a step back and read some on sites you realize - its fooling no one,
              You won't fool anyone besides the algorithm.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

            I ain't saying it won't work, I still own a very well ranking site where I used $2/500 word articles. It's total crap when you read it but it's my biggest money making site lol.
            lets face it. its one of three things

            A) you are not making much money from it.
            B) You are crazy. Its not sane to not put something back into your "biggest money" maker.
            C) you are blowing smoke to sell your services that utilize cheap articles.
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            • Profile picture of the author Legit SEO
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              lets face it. its one of three things

              A) you are not making much money from it.
              B) You are crazy. Its not sane to not put something back into your "biggest money" maker.
              C) you are blowing smoke to sell your services that utilize cheap articles.

              And here we go
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            • Profile picture of the author nik0
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              lets face it. its one of three things

              A) you are not making much money from it.
              B) You are crazy. Its not sane to not put something back into your "biggest money" maker.
              C) you are blowing smoke to sell your services that utilize cheap articles.
              A) $600/month, not too much, still a nice extra
              B) Yeah maybe I am crazy that I haven't replaced those articles
              C) I don't use that content writer for my services, it was a one time test.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

                A) $600/month, not too much, still a nice extra
                No not crazy money but still worth adding some good content to. Why in the world not rather than waiting for it to be slapped and losing the $600 a month?????
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                • Profile picture of the author nik0
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  No not crazy money but still worth adding some good content to. Why in the world not rather than waiting for it to be slapped and losing the $600 a month?????
                  Believe it or not, cause I'm freaking busy and can't use my content writers for my own projects.

                  Heck lately I outsourced 10 Amazon sites completely as I didn't have the manpower to build those sites and write the content.

                  Now those sites are eating dust. Not a single link is build so far.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by webby0031 View Post

                  Jesus Christ, this bloke is beyond a joke now.... all these posts have come out of his ass just like his BSO
                  Kiddies..,they get banned twice for creating posts all about attacking members and not discussing issues and they go right back to it in a few weeks looking to get banned a third time. :rolleyes:

                  anyway again thanks for highlighting my sig offers. You continue to be my best affiliate

                  I gurantee in the 1.5 years i have been doing this I now earn far more than Mr Mike ever will do...
                  LOL...At least you posted with comedy this morning. I liked the Mr Mike thing too. good stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Make Money Ninja
    I am the voice of reason, hear me roar.

    Mike Anthony is pretty much right.

    Yukon is 100% right.

    Tolyz needs his eyes tested
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  • Profile picture of the author GGpaul
    A lot of my college mates can't find jobs. I graduated as a comm major and so I've met a lot of writers that will write either for McDonalds or spare change! . Network network network!
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  • Profile picture of the author Legit SEO
    BTW, the best way to see what SEO strategies are working is to take a look at SERPs.
    Of course that's an obvious statement, but it's one that holds true after every Panda, Penjuin, random zoo animal update.
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  • Profile picture of the author Newven
    Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

    • The are not surrounded or on the same page with scores of other editorial links
    • they are not on sites that have little or not content (seriously who writes a one page article on WP links to a page and calls it a day for the whole site?)
    • they have some surrounding related words
    • the sites the links come from on the whole are about something not about anything or nothing at all

    .
    And thus the problem.

    I have a bunch of sites and installed analytics on some. A year later I looked at the "Links to Your Sites" and found over 100 that were from all over the place and all over the world with most having nothing to do with the topics on my sites. Some were trying to hotlink but most were just the strangest pages and some in languages I couldn't understand.

    You don't have full control of who links to you.
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