Backlinking and Going In Reverse

15 years ago

Are you looking at what your competition may be doing as well?

If they are adding links faster than you - might that be it?

Thanks
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ahefner33 15 years ago

Hey Steve,

Could be? But what makes there link building more qualified to be put in front of me? I casually add links (around 10-15 a day) of quality backlinks, but this is all I know, from what I have gained from others as the most "effective" way to building backlinks. So even if I spy my competitors and they are building "faster", then is what I am doing wrong? There's really no variable to change unless I add more links a day which I have come to see that most say that is a negative thing to do.

Thanks for your feedback and more is welcome.

Adam

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Are you looking at what your competition may be doing as well?

If they are adding links faster than you - might that be it?
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AndyBlackSEO

15 years ago

Yes, if you are in a competitive niche then other people may be pushing their sites harder than what you are.

Just ensure you are building your links daily, (a few a day, each day). What sort of places are you getting your links from and are you using the same anchor text each time?

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ahefner33

15 years ago

Originally Posted by AndyBlackSEO

Yes, if you are in a competitive niche then other people may be pushing their sites harder than what you are.

Just ensure you are building your links daily, (a few a day, each day). What sort of places are you getting your links from and are you using the same anchor text each time?

Hey Andy,

How do I define if the cause is a site "pushing their site harder" than what I am doing? Adding more links per day?

I am adding links daily and I am trying to stay in the bounds of being natural. I am pretty novice at linkbuilding but as you stated I am adding a few a day.

Mainly blogs that relate to the general niche of my sites and the main domain atleast carries a PR3 or above. Also high pr user profile backlinks.

Thanks again for the reply. More is welcome.

Adam

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AdamWB

15 years ago

I would like the answer to this phenomena as well.

Saying that your competition is just working harder seems like a cop out answer to me.

I'll have a site in a certain position for months, and when I decide to start adding backlinks, google starts playing ping pong with its rankings. It happens every time to me, without fail.

I hardly doubt the hundreds or thousands of other sites that compete for the same keyword just happen to build backlinks on the exact same day as I do, after months of not moving.

Granted - once I stop building backlinks to the site, it returns to its normal position - only to move around again once I start the building process again.

Google is a tough cookie to crack.

Thanks
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weddingseoblog

15 years ago

Originally Posted by AdamWB

I would like the answer to this phenomena as well.

Saying that your competition is just working harder seems like a cop out answer to me.

I'll have a site in a certain position for months, and when I decide to start adding backlinks, google starts playing ping pong with its rankings. It happens every time to me, without fail.

I hardly doubt the hundreds or thousands of other sites that compete for the same keyword just happen to build backlinks on the exact same day as I do, after months of not moving.

Granted - once I stop building backlinks to the site, it returns to its normal position - only to move around again once I start the building process again.

Google is a tough cookie to crack.

Could be a few things:

Maybe some of the site that you are adding links to are penalized (Linking to bad neighborhoods)?

Duplicate Content issues?

Irregular page or inbound link growth??

Irregular or off-topic linking patterns??

Accessibility and usability problems??

Thanks
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ahefner33

15 years ago

Sorry to butt in on this one but how do you pin-point or how can you tell if these are the issue?

Originally Posted by weddingseoblog

Could be a few things:

Maybe some of the site that you are adding links to are penalized (Linking to bad neighborhoods)?

Duplicate Content issues?

Irregular page or inbound link growth??

Irregular or off-topic linking patterns??

Accessibility and usability problems??

Thanks

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AdamWB

15 years ago

Originally Posted by weddingseoblog

Could be a few things:

Maybe some of the site that you are adding links to are penalized (Linking to bad neighborhoods)?

Duplicate Content issues?

Irregular page or inbound link growth??

Irregular or off-topic linking patterns??

Accessibility and usability problems??

Who knows really. There's a million things it "could" be. All I know is there is no rhyme or reason to the way google dances around with websites.

I'm surprised more people aren't piping up and saying they have the same thing happen to them. It seems like all of my "IM Buddies" report the same issues with their sites.

Thanks
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JoMo 15 years ago

Originally Posted by AdamWB

Who knows really. There's a million things it "could" be. All I know is there is no rhyme or reason to the way google dances around with websites.
...

I think that is the point. If there was a set definite formula then "everyone" could figure it out and take advantage. Googeel wants to keep us guessing.
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ripsnorta2 15 years ago

Originally Posted by AdamWB

Saying that your competition is just working harder seems like a cop out answer to me.

But that really is a reasonable answer.

Why does one runner in the New York Marathon beat all the others?

Well, to an extent there's some natural talent, but at the top level it's all about the training, both mental and physical. And that takes hard work, in fact harder work than most of us will ever have to face.

If your competitor is working harder or smarter than you, then you will be at a disadvantage.
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Amenda Jessera

15 years ago

Hey Adam, me too hveing few sites and I too do some link buildings, but never felt such a case so far....... However, you have to ensure that you are having permant quality links. Specially some blog comemntings. That will be more helpful......

Thanks
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Mr_Julian_S

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Amenda Jessera

Hey Adam, me too hveing few sites and I too do some link buildings, but never felt such a case so far....... However, you have to ensure that you are having permant quality links. Specially some blog comemntings. That will be more helpful......

Hi Amenda, I dont think that Blog Comments can give you permanent links, they could be quality links but not permanent. Thats because most of the blog owners are moderating they blog comments in order to prevent spam and PR bleed. Even if it is approved once you cannot be sure for how long will your link will be in the comment.

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ahefner33 15 years ago

Hey Bob,

Yes they all contain the keyword of the site instead of the general http://domain.com.

The relevance thing I don't really comprehend though. So you are saying that where I put my link, there needs to be relevance in the sentence before and the sentence after where the link is? How do they determine if its relevant? If the same keyword is in that text beside the link? Help me understand if you could because I can see where the link could have anything written beside it but I wouldn't see how the bot would recognize if those certain sentence were relevant? If I'm missing the point let me know.

Hey Don (DBurk)

If relevance of the page mattered significantly to what weight the anchor text link will carry, for example how would people get ranked for say peoples 'names'. What pops in my mind is Angela and her back links. I did some studying on her site and she is ranked #2 for the name 'Angela" (on my data center she is). So how does relevancy play a role in linking to say a name? How will the content of the site be judged to be seen as relevant to the name 'Angela'? Thanks again to your feedback and do look forward to hearing back.

Adam
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weddingseoblog

15 years ago

This might help??

GoogleRankings.com Website Diagnostics Panel

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weddingseoblog

15 years ago

I would need to know the "Whole Story" to detect what went wrong. I know that in my case I started competing for the keywords Wedding Planning & Wedding Favors about 3 months ago, and just this week did I show up on the first page for my site 1weddingsource.com. Never once did I really drop off the first 10 pages during my campaign. During the Google Dance when you are about to move up a few positions, I notice that you fall behind about 3-6 positions first only then to advance 1 or 2 days later.

Wedding Planning

wedding planning - Google Search

Wedding Favors

wedding favors - Google Search

Thanks

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AdamWB

15 years ago

This is typically what I do for my link building strategy:

Register domain. Digg domain to get it indexed. Once indexed use angela's / paul's backlinks about 5-15 times per day anchored with the keyword the domain is targeting.

Usually I will be on the first page *very* quickly, like within the first week. I keep building links daily, 5-15 links per day max, using angela's / paul's / steve's backlink packages.

Usually by week 2 my site falls off page 1 to somewhere between page 5-10. I keep building links as usual. During the first few months it jumps around page 1-10 - however it only jumps around when I start building backlinks. If I stop the backlinks it usually settles back to its original spot on page 1.

I also notice that this RARELY happens with articles. If I build links to say one of my ezinearticles - it rarely jumps around and usually hits the first page within the first couple weeks, and stays that way.

I've done this with SEVERAL domains and SEVERAL articles, it always comes up with the same result.

Thanks

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jkgulick

15 years ago

If you stray from Google's ideal linking pattern which includes a large percentage of deep links, I can imagine that there may be some "penalty". When I build links, I just build deep links mostly (about 95%). If your site link structure and anchor texts are good, the juice will flow and your own anchors will help promote your main page.

Thanks

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seo-authority

15 years ago

It is highly unlikely that all your competition has got their act togther over the last month to out rank you. You say you have multiple sites, Do they share the same or similar content as through my own trials this often causes moves backwards when sites interlink with duplicate content. Just a suggestion

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dburk

15 years ago

Hi Adam,

The single most important factor in SEO is relevance. One of the ways that search engines determine the relevance of your web page is by the content of pages that link to your web page.

When you build backlinks from pages that are not highly relevant to the keyword you are optimizing for, you may be effecting the relevance of your page to that keyword. The search engines are always striving to deliver the most relevant results, if the relevancy of your page becomes ambiguous you will suffer in the rankings.

Using relevant keywords in the anchor text of your backlinks can mitigate the negative effect of links from irrelevant pages, however there seems to be a delay in the time it takes before the SE builds trust in that new anchor text.

By focusing exclusively on backlinks from highly relevant pages, you will avoid much of the disruptive effect that new backlinks have on the perceived relevancy of your page towards your targeted keyword.

Why not give that a try and report back to this forum the results of those efforts?

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Nice post Don - thanks.

A quick relevancy question for you. I struggle getting my head around what relevancy means to the folks making the case FOR relevancy in the context of backlinking strategy.

Is it the site/domains overall relevancy to my site or just the text surrounding my links on the page [not the anchor text ] - for example.

If I post a blog article about AIG Insurance's demise on a site that wants my content but is focused on Pet Grooming ... The text of my article/blog post is is relevant to my site and thats the text surround my link on hte pet grooming site. But is my link diminished in value because google knows the algorithmically that the site is a Pet Grooming site and not an Insurance related site? Yet my article and anchor text are all fully relevant?

Further on the topic of relevance ... how do we explain the connundrum that Angela Edwards sites and strategy presents to the relavancy argument. Keyword Angela on NASA's site - relevance? Not much I suspect. Keyword backlinks relevant to The Guardian UK site or Gourmet.com or 1,000 other sites? Yet ... she ranks for backlinks which is a pretty competitive looking search term.

I consistently hear/read "relevance" is vital, but yet there is little further defining of what the poster actually means by relevance. I am not discounting relevance, I just want to get my head around what exactly the context is ...

Thanks in advance for civil indulgence to my query, and for your valued information.

best,

Steve

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Adam,

The single most important factor in SEO is relevance. One of the ways that search engines determine the relevance of your web page is by the content of pages that link to your web page.

When you build backlinks from pages that are not highly relevant to the keyword you are optimizing for, you may be effecting the relevance of your page to that keyword. The search engines are always striving to deliver the most relevant results, if the relevancy of your page becomes ambiguous you will suffer in the rankings.

Using relevant keywords in the anchor text of your backlinks can mitigate the negative effect of links from irrelevant pages, however there seems to be a delay in the time it takes before the SE builds trust in that new anchor text.

By focusing exclusively on backlinks from highly relevant pages, you will avoid much of the disruptive effect that new backlinks have on the perceived relevancy of your page towards your targeted keyword.

Why not give that a try and report back to this forum the results of those efforts?

Thanks
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Bob Monie

15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Nice post Don - thanks.

A quick relevancy question for you. I struggle getting my head around what relevancy means to the folks making the case FOR relevancy in the context of backlinking strategy.

Is it the site/domains overall relevancy to my site or just the text surrounding my links on the page [not the anchor text ] - for example.

If I post a blog article about AIG Insurance's demise on a site that wants my content but is focused on Pet Grooming ... The text of my article/blog post is is relevant to my site and thats the text surround my link on hte pet grooming site. But is my link diminished in value because google knows the algorithmically that the site is a Pet Grooming site and not an Insurance related site? Yet my article and anchor text are all fully relevant?

Further on the topic of relevance ... how do we explain the connundrum that Angela Edwards sites and strategy presents to the relavancy argument. Keyword Angela on NASA's site - relevance? Not much I suspect. Keyword backlinks relevant to The Guardian UK site or Gourmet.com or 1,000 other sites? Yet ... she ranks for backlinks which is a pretty competitive looking search term.

I consistently hear/read "relevance" is vital, but yet there is little further defining of what the poster actually means by relevance. I am not discounting relevance, I just want to get my head around what exactly the context is ...

Thanks in advance for civil indulgence to my query, and for your valued information.

best,

Steve

Steve,

There are 2 types of relevance that people talk about when backlinking. This is probably where the confusion is coming from.

The first one that I think is the most important SEO factor is called anchor text Keyword relevance. If the keywords used in the anchor text of the backlink relates to the content on the site its pointing to then Google dramatically increases the websites rank for that specific keyword. If enough backlinks come back with the same keyword relevance, the site will eventually rank number one. Even if the site doesnt contain those keywords in the content. Thats how powerfull anchor text link relevance is.

A good example of the power is when that community of link builders Google bombed thewhitehouse.com so it ranked for the term "miserable failure" back in 2007.

ahefner33 - Have you been using anchor text or just using your URL when building links?

If you just use your URL then all your doing is building pagerank and not really telling Google what keywords to rank for.

Obviously the other relevance people talk about is the relevance of the page the link is coming from. How closely it relates to the page the link is pointing to. From what I understand Google determins the relevance by comparing the first few sentences either side of the link and the pages title to the page the link is pointing to. If it matches, Google gives it alot more weight with rankings. Thats why I find article submissions with in content links work the best.

Steve - I presume you already new all that stuff but where just confused with it. Hope i didnt confuse ya more.

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4morereferrals 15 years ago

Thanks Bob Monie!

Thats what I suspected ...

99.7% of all my links are anchor text with my 18 or so keywords Im after - else I pretty much dont even bother placing a link unless I spent a ton o time reging a site, only to find out - only the url and no anchor text is useable.

The thing that was messing with me - was all the hit n run posters who come blasting in with - link only on High PR - "relevant sites!!!" or your wasting time. Or relevancy is the most important thing to backlinking? Relevant sites? I was thinking - wth?

Ok - what relevancy? It was so much "misingformation" as it was just lack of enough clear information.

If I specialized in Boom n Jib Insurance Coverage - where the hell am I going to find relevant "sites" in enough quantity to make a difference.

So when all the espoused SEO guru's [ not referring to you Bob ] come parading thru these threads spouting their relevance mantra - I now know they mean link anchor text ... and then the content surrounding the link as well as perhaps the blog posts or pages title...

Much clearer now. Crystal actually.

Gracias!
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Zeus66

15 years ago

You've changed the equation by backlinking. That probably accounts for the ping-pong action in the SERPs. Give it a rest (the backlinking) for a week or so. See if your site settles into one position. That's the quick way to tell if the backlinking is the cause. Personally, I'd ignore the daily shifts and just plug away at the backlinking.

John

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

I agree with this as well. Pretty sure most everyone concludes that increased backlinking with sites / links that arent bad apples will sort itself out in the end.

However that radical and frequency ofgoogle dancing does seem rather odd and extreme. Based upon your follow up comments, does NOT appear to be merely competitors outpacing your backlink efforts.

Which I had the silver bullet to answer this mystery with.

I'll be watching for your future reports on it. Best of success!

Originally Posted by Zeus66

You've changed the equation by backlinking. That probably accounts for the ping-pong action in the SERPs. Give it a rest (the backlinking) for a week or so. See if your site settles into one position. That's the quick way to tell if the backlinking is the cause. Personally, I'd ignore the daily shifts and just plug away at the backlinking.

John

Thanks

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ahefner33

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

You've changed the equation by backlinking. That probably accounts for the ping-pong action in the SERPs. Give it a rest (the backlinking) for a week or so. See if your site settles into one position. That's the quick way to tell if the backlinking is the cause. Personally, I'd ignore the daily shifts and just plug away at the backlinking.

John

Hi John,

This is exactly what happen. I quit for a couple days and they stopped jumping. Actually moved up a couple spots.

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SummitBloggers

15 years ago

It happens to a lot of people. Used to be called the "Google Dance". It seems like Google is very sensitive to changes in the link structure of a site, both internally and externally. We have had entire blogs disappear from the index due to mass changes to internal linking, only to reappear several days or weeks later. We just keep building our backlinks on a schedule and don't worry about it. We stop for a month or so to give things time to settle. Works for us!

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AdamWB

15 years ago

I don't know, it all just seems like a bunch of "speculation" to me. And I HIGHLY doubt every single one of my competitors decided to start working on their sites on the same day and jumped ahead of me at the same time. It just doesn't seem feasible.

I'm starting to see, with more and more experience at this, that in the end your site ends up where it deserves to be - regardless if it jumps 20pages every other day back and forth for the first few months. I have some older sites that are several years old, and I've noticed they don't hop around that much.

I also notice a lot of the big authority sites in certain niches hardly move, and if they do it's maybe 1-2 ranks (not 10 pages). Seems like website age plays the biggest issue in preventing the "google dance" on your website.

Thanks

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Kurt

15 years ago

I can't tell you why Google does what it does. But I can tell you what to do about it.

Blackhatters use "parasite" hosting, others call them Web 2.0 sites, like Blogger, Squidoo, Hubpages, etc.

Go out and build 5-7 of these parasite sites. Put legit, kinda good, unique content on each. On a couple, be super agressive when it comes to linking. Others, a little less aggressive and very gentle on one or two.

See what happens. Not only is this a good experiment, if you get any positive results for your parasite sites, THEN link to your money page(s).

Plus, you can also grab multiple top positions using different parasite hosts.

This helps insulate your money page, but still passes on the link juice from your linking efforts.

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AdamWB

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

I can't tell you why Google does what it does. But I can tell you what to do about it.

Blackhatters use "parasite" hosting, others call them Web 2.0 sites, like Blogger, Squidoo, Hubpages, etc.

Go out and build 5-7 of these parasite sites. Put legit, kinda good, unique content on each. On a couple, be super agressive when it comes to linking. Others, a little less aggressive and very gentle on one or two.

See what happens. Not only is this a good experiment, if you get any positive results for your parasite sites, THEN link to your money page(s).

Plus, you can also grab multiple top positions using different parasite hosts.

This helps insulate your money page, but still passes on the link juice from your linking efforts.

That's funny because I'm actually doing just that. Not with parasites though, with my own hosted blogs.

So far the results are all over the map, and no real patterns are forming.

Thanks
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by AdamWB

That's funny because I'm actually doing just that. Not with parasites though, with my own hosted blogs.

So far the results are all over the map, and no real patterns are forming.

Hi Adam,

Try expanding to using parasite hosts. Unless you have a bunch of different hosts, most likely you're still linking to the same (similar) IP address.

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4morereferrals

15 years ago

Tip O' the Hat to Kurt on this ...

In process to see what amount of backlinks it actually takes for google grenade a squidoo lense.

Originally Posted by Kurt

I can't tell you why Google does what it does. But I can tell you what to do about it.

Blackhatters use "parasite" hosting, others call them Web 2.0 sites, like Blogger, Squidoo, Hubpages, etc.

Go out and build 5-7 of these parasite sites. Put legit, kinda good, unique content on each. On a couple, be super agressive when it comes to linking. Others, a little less aggressive and very gentle on one or two.

See what happens. Not only is this a good experiment, if you get any positive results for your parasite sites, THEN link to your money page(s).

Plus, you can also grab multiple top positions using different parasite hosts.

This helps insulate your money page, but still passes on the link juice from your linking efforts.

Thanks
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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Tip O' the Hat to Kurt on this ...

In process to see what amount of backlinks it actually takes for google grenade a squidoo lense.

Actually a partner of mine had Squidoo nuke his lens for something like "unfavorable linking"...He is really into bookmarking and somehow tripped some type of filter at Squidoo and had an account disabled. Not sure how they detect types of linking, but it did happen.

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Bob Monie

15 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Thanks Bob Monie!

Thats what I suspected ...

99.7% of all my links are anchor text with my 18 or so keywords Im after - else I pretty much dont even bother placing a link unless I spent a ton o time reging a site, only to find out - only the url and no anchor text is useable.

The thing that was messing with me - was all the hit n run posters who come blasting in with - link only on High PR - "relevant sites!!!" or your wasting time. Or relevancy is the most important thing to backlinking? Relevant sites? I was thinking - wth?

Ok - what relevancy? It was so much "misingformation" as it was just lack of enough clear information.

If I specialized in Boom n Jib Insurance Coverage - where the hell am I going to find relevant "sites" in enough quantity to make a difference.

So when all the espoused SEO guru's [ not referring to you Bob ] come parading thru these threads spouting their relevance mantra - I now know they mean link anchor text ... and then the content surrounding the link as well as perhaps the blog posts or pages title...

Much clearer now. Crystal actually.

Gracias!

Yes, there are alot of self proclaimed SEO gurus around and unfortunately a lot of the info they spout is either wrong or not explained clearly. I know iv been guilty of this in the past and no doubt people dont agree with what I believe. Since SEO is really just hear-say and not an exact science, we will keep reading the misleading theorys.

Good to know I cleared it up for you a little.

Originally Posted by ahefner33

Hey Bob,

Yes they all contain the keyword of the site instead of the general http://domain.com.

The relevance thing I don't really comprehend though. So you are saying that where I put my link, there needs to be relevance in the sentence before and the sentence after where the link is? How do they determine if its relevant? If the same keyword is in that text beside the link? Help me understand if you could because I can see where the link could have anything written beside it but I wouldn't see how the bot would recognize if those certain sentence were relevant? If I'm missing the point let me know.

Adam

Adam,

There are a few ways that Google could determine if your backlink comes from a relevant website. They could start by comparing your backlink anchor text to the rest of the content that is on that page. Obviously the keywords and keyphrases that appear in that content the most often would be considered by Google as that pages subject/theme. If your backlink anchor text also contains those keywords then they could determine that your link is relevant and give it more weight.

They could also compare the content of both your webpage and the page with the backlink to see if the most common words and phrases appear on both.

I have seen proof that the content surrounding a backlink is considered when determining rank. Thats what makes in content links the best quality links. Google want to award links that a site visitor will find usefull and devalue links that are considered useless to a site visitor.

Heres an example for ya.

If you had a webpage about dog training and a link from that page to a webpage selling dog collars, people may find that useful because its targeting the same general niche. Google will award this link with more weight.

If you had a webpage about dog training and a link from the footer of that page to a webpage selling car insurance, people wont find that useful. You wouldnt find to many people surfing a dog training website that randomly gets the urge to buy car insurance now would you. Google would determine that that link is not useful for the visitor and devalue the link with less weight.

This is a huge reason why seo with link directories doesn't work anywhere near as well as they did 12 - 18 months ago.

Thanks
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indie08 15 years ago

This is some interesting reading. I've had my articles bounce around as well. I guess this is normal. That has put my mind at ease. I continue to build backlinks anyway. Around 5-10 a day....
- Thanks
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Backlinking and Going In Reverse

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