Can we just add Race as another subject to be off limits on WF like Politics and Religion?

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I made this suggestion to previous management and it was ignored. If things like Politics and Religion are found to be divisive then how can comments and discussions about or implying things about race not be considered the same or even more explosive?

We don't need conversations about what Blacks do or do not do on an IM Board
We do not need insults or innuendos of where Indians come from socially
We do not need to talk about Whites in regard to trash or any pejoratives across racial divides or even within those divides.
and no we don't even NEED to talk about racially charged cases in the news since we are a diverse community

For many its not an issue because of the make up of WF (previous to recent influxes). Some statements obviously will not be very offensive to some groups while other groups it would be highly offensive but why should any race be talked about or implied on WF? .What often happens is that the person who objects to offensive remarks ends up being called the one creating the problem. After all if every one goes along with the statements there is harmony for most.

However I don't see the benefit to Freelancer of even having these discussions or statements appear on your site for you to be associated with it. It furthers no Internet Marketing goal and they are potentially divisive and explosive as proven by the fact that all major threads concerning race have ended up having to be locked.

IF religion and politics are off limits then I respectfully request that race based posts and threads and racial innuendos or insults REGARDLESS OF RACE just be not allowed on your site at all. It will free time for the mods, free freelancer from being associated with certain views and take nothing away from the community.

To be honest I've never understood why Religion and politics are off the table but race isn't. Its far more explosive in many cases.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for this suggestion. We want to allow people to talk freely, but if the content is offensive to users then it has no place on the site. There is of course the reporting tool for individual posts, but it may be that a blanket formal rule is needed. This is something we will look at.

Thanks
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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by danieljb

Hi Mike,

Thanks for this suggestion. We want to allow people to talk freely, but if the content is offensive to users then it has no place on the site. There is of course the reporting tool for individual posts, but it may be that a blanket formal rule is needed. This is something we will look at.

Thanks Daniel I really appreciate that consideration and I and other people of like mind and minorities look forward to the day we don't have to see or debate issues based on race on this forum

Thanks

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

This is already covered by the Forum's Terms of Use agreement, binding on all members.

From the Warrior Forum Terms of Use:

When you create or make available a Contribution, you thereby represent and warrant that:
<snip>
your Contribution does not include any offensive comments that are connected to race, national origin, gender, sexual preference or physical handicap.

If you consider a post or thread to contain such material, you should report it citing the forum's ToS.

.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

This is already covered by the Forum's Terms of Use agreement, binding on all members.

From the Warrior Forum Terms of Use:

If you consider a post or thread to contain such material, you should report it citing the forum's ToS.

.

Sorry thats incorrect.

It doesn't cover it because it leaves the interpretation of offensive up in the air and subject to debate and point of view as it has been in places like the off topic forum for quite some time where MANY race based conversations have been allowed and then subsequently had to be locked because of disagreements on that very issue of what is or is not offensive or racist (subject very often as to whether you are part of the race being discussed) . My reasonable request is that the ambiguity be taken out of the process as it is in regard to religion and politics.

I cannot see a justifiable reason why talking about races provides anything constructive over not debating about religion or politics.

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Sorry thats incorrect.

It doesn't cover it because it leaves the interpretation of offensive up in the air and subject to debate and point of view as it has been in places like the off topic forum for quite some time where MANY race based conversations have been allowed and then subsequently had to be locked because of disagreements on that very issue of what is or is not offensive or racist (subject very often as to whether you are part of the race being discussed) . My reasonable request is that the ambiguity be taken out of the process as it is in regard to religion and politics..

It leaves the interpretation of what's against the ToS to the mods, where it should be. It seems to me the rules are quite precise. I haven't noticed many race discussions myself, but then I tend to avoid threads about "news" items. But if, as you say, many race-based conversations have had to be locked, I would expect the current mods to begin anticipating which threads are likely to descend into offensive areas and step in quickly. Certainly, by his response here, Daniel gives me encouragement that any genuine complaints will be taken seriously.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

It leaves the interpretation of what's against the ToS to the mods, where it should be.

Again disagree. If thats the case then it should be argued that politics and Religion should be left with mods as well and yet those areas are even easier to handle whereas racial issues vary wildly in perspective from mod to mod based on race and life experience. .

In a vacuum you can say whats offensive is precise but the minute we start talking about particular issues of race I guarantee several issues will be anything but . Since you seemed to be interested might I sincerely ask you what benefit you think any discussion of race has on WF?

By the time a mod removes an offensive post or thread several have already read it and damage has been done and a divide created where as with politics an offensive comment to a party or politician is unlikely to create the same level of ill will because it is much less personal and does not involve self identity as race does.

I AM curious as to what value you think discussions of race have over politics and religion. If you have one then please fee free I have yet to think of anything. I welcome that discussion. (if its considered appropriate here )

.

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Again disagree. If thats the case then it should be argued that politics and Religion should be left with mods as well and yet those areas are even easier to handle whereas racial issues vary wildly in perspective from mod to mod based on race and life experience.

Politics and religion aren't intrinsically offensive, so they're not specifically mentioned in the forum's ToS. Indeed, discussion of those topics was originally allowed. That changed after a handful of members continually abused the privilege to the extent that rational conversation became impossible. Personally, I think it's a shame that the blanket ban had to be imposed, but it was probably necessary. Again, I might be avoiding the threads with all the action, but I don't see race-based discussions approaching anywhere near that level of frequency or abuse.

In a vacuum you can say whats offensive is precise but the minute we start talking about particular issues of race I guarantee several issues will be anything but . Since you seemed to be interested might I sincerely ask you what benefit you think any discussion of race has on WF?

If my idea of benefit was the only criterion, there are several topics I'd be happy never seeing posted again, but I guess everyone believes their own views have merit. I do see a real benefit in allowing responsible, adult conversation on as wide a range of topics as possible and relying on the common sense of the members and the diligence and discretion of the mods to keep the board running usefully.

By the time a mod removes an offensive post or thread several have already read it and damage has been done and a divide created where as with politics an offensive comment to a party or politician is unlikely to create the same level of ill will because it is much less personal and does not involve self identity as race does.

Banning a topic won't stop some people from posting offensive posts - idiots will be idiots - but that's why there's a moderation system in place. Persistent or serious offenders should be removed from the forum.

I AM curious as to what value you think discussions of race have over politics and religion. If you have one then please fee free I have yet to think of anything. I welcome that discussion. (if its considered appropriate here )

I think I already covered this. I'm instinctively against blanket discussion bans in a forum, but accept that they're occasionally necessary.

And yes, we'll have to ask Daniel how he'd classify discussions about race discussions.

Frank
.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Again, I might be avoiding the threads with all the action, but I don't see race-based discussions approaching anywhere near that level of frequency or abuse

I am sorry Donovan but you have said this a couple times and its just not true. In the last month we have had several threads locked regarding various cases surrounding race. I don't know how you missed them but if you did you did. Multiple threads were based on racial situations.

The Ferguson case had a few threads
The case in the New York choke hold one or two
The bill Cosby thread though open has drifted into some questionable observations

The last administration and mod staff did an absolutely horrible job of handling issues regarding race which is why your mod argument really doesn't resonate with me. Pitiful - mostly hear no evil see no evil but again given the make up of WF at the time I can see many claiming there was no issue.

Thats the very nature of the problem when you allow race based debates and observations. You might have even the majority fine with certain things but they be terribly offensive to other races and nationalities and create a very bad reputation for WF in certain communities. I've had people tell me that WF is not the place for people of color but meanwhile mods and administration thought it was quite okay even with posts that openly stated things like

"Why do only African Americans riot" (hint they are not the only race that does and saying so was very offensive but left to stand as an entire ongoing debate). Being African American that one nearly had me through the doors and posting a scathing blog post about WF

I"ve heard the objections from Indians and chinese as well and yes I related some of the threads and comments over the years to others for their impressions and unanimously they all found them very offensive.

Expecting mods to understand and act on what is offensive to minorities just has plain not worked. Perhaps its just too nuanced to get every mod to understand issues across races.

Anyway I appreciate your input but I still am wondering what is so important about being able to talk about people's skin color and race to WF over politics and religion. Not hampering discussion or not banning subjects because idiots will be idiots really doesn't hold water since when you allow discussion on certain issues it ENCOURAGES those posts and narrative around them and again we already do on two very wide subjects

I'll leave it there ...pretty long post.

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I am sorry Donovan but you have said this a couple times and its just not true. In the last month we have had several threads locked regarding various cases surrounding race. I don't know how you missed them but if you did you did. Multiple threads were based on racial situations.
The Ferguson case had a few threads
The case in the New York choke hold one or two
The bill Cosby thread though open has drifted into some questionable observations

Actually, it is true that I didn't see them, but I get what you mean. I'm aware of the threads you listed, but can't comment on the nature of the posts. However, is it your suggestion that the Cosby thread shouldn't have been started because of his race? If so, that's absurd. If your objection is to certain posts within the thread, that's exactly what the report button is for. I don't buy that a member with your communicative ability can't make a compelling case for deletion.

...but meanwhile mods and administration thought it was quite okay even with posts that openly stated things like
"Why do only African Americans riot" (hint they are not the only race that does and saying so was very offensive but left to stand as an entire ongoing debate). Being African American that one nearly had me through the doors and posting a scathing blog post about WF
<snip>
Expecting mods to understand and act on what is offensive to minorities just has plain not worked. Perhaps its just too nuanced to get every mod to understand issues across races

That statement in bold doesn't strike me as particularly nuanced. And its premise is clearly factually incorrect. I know about your views on the previous administration, but I would still rather rely on the discretion of the mods to interpret the rules of the forum for the benefit of all members.

I"ve heard the objections from Indians and chinese as well and yes I related some of the threads and comments over the years to others for their impressions and unanimously they all found them very offensive.

If those feelings are widespread, this would be a good place to air them. Let's see what reaction there is.

.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Actually, it is However, is it your suggestion that the Cosby thread shouldn't have been started because of his race? If so, that's absurd

Read instead of assuming please my man. I specifically stated certain posts were in there that border on objectionable. I was not asking you how they should be dealt but if you recall answering your observation that not much of a problem existed as you seemed to be claiming. I never said anything about that Cosby thread being never started because it need be not an issue of race at all and I cited several threads some of which most definitely were locked.

I don't buy that a member with your communicative ability can't make a compelling case for deletion.

Thanks your making my point for me probably better than I was making it before. Race based comments should not have to rely on someone making a case for deletion to a mod. A minority should not have to build a case to not have to read about his or her race. Many in fat will just leave with a bad taste in their mouth. Frankly the freedom to talk about race and skin color just flat out does not serve any thing good and certainly I don't think Freelancer as a corporation as it has far worse downside than any upside fo r any company

but thats my opinion and their call

If those feelings are widespread, this would be a good place to air them. Let's see what reaction there is.

Absolutely not. Perhaps A poll would be a good idea if it were to come to that like

Do you feel its okay/comfortable to talk about race on WF?

(personally I think its self evident race should have no place on an Internet marketing board)

but no - responses here would not be even remotely scientific as its hardly a well travelled sub forum by many and the people you would want hear from would be the minorities already of lower sampling rate.

P.S. You really are not aware of my position of previous management although you thin you may be. Outside of what I have said in this thread about how the race issue has been dealt with in this thread I have only responded in support of present management never given my full views on that issue

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Frank Donovan

9 years ago

I see the OP has been banned, but in any case, I'm not sure whether it would be useful prolonging the debate in this thread. I'll just respond to this point:

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Race based comments should not have to rely on someone making a case for deletion to a mod. A minority should not have to build a case to not have to read about his or her race.

A blanket ban on the mere mention of a particular subject won't stop offensive posts. There'll always be posts that someone finds offensive and will feel deserve reporting. The forum has a system in place to deal with that. Your argument seems to be that because the mods might not agree with your assessment and immediately delete any post you report, the decision should therefore be taken out of their hands. I believe that would be like the tail wagging the dog. It's not the way a forum should be run.

Unlike you, I prefer to leave decisions about what constitutes a breach of the forum's clearly defined ToS to the discretion and diligence of the professionally-trained mods, whose considerations have the benefit of forum overview, rather than the narrow outlook and interests of any individual member - regardless of the topic.

.

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Joel Young

9 years ago

In my opinion, sometimes race could be relevant to a discussion when it comes to targeted marketing, etc. It's a fact that there are many real world products made for specific ethnic groups. In the IM world I'm sure there are times when a particular marketing tactic or product would be advantageous when done with someone's ethnicity in mind. It's just a fact of life. While we're all part of the human race, that race comes in many forms, and can't be ignored ALL the time.

That being said, aside from the above reasons, there really is no reason to bring up race, since we are all just people in the broad scope of things. But making a rule against it could prevent potential helpful discussion here.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joel Young

In my opinion, sometimes race could be relevant to a discussion when it comes to targeted marketing, etc. It's a fact that there are many real world products made for specific ethnic groups. In the IM world I'm sure there are times when a particular marketing tactic or product would be advantageous when done with someone's ethnicity in mind.

Yeah but heres the thing . ..that not a discussion about a race and if you explore that too far it won' t be long before you get yourself in trouble. I can say I want to market to the chicago indian community. Thats not perse a discussion about race. Now if I start going into what indians like or don't like.....booom you are going to start hitting some stereotypes and offensive stuff especially when you have people who don' t have a clue weighing in

So I am still not seeing how discussing race is going to help. IF I stay on a nationality geography level then I am safe and I don't see anything much hindered. I do get your point and MAYBE there is a slight downside that you can't go on WF and ask hey what do African Americans like but seriously the risk to reward ratio for that small benefit is going to be diminished by people weighing in that don't give any light, don't have a clue and even offends with their racism.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

If it were up to Mr. Anthony, he would direct what could and could not be discussed. Fortunately, it isn't up to him. WF has a couple of resident racists, primarily in Off Topic and there are enough people who frequent that forum who are not racist to call them out on it, without the inflammatory dialog that Anthony is so famous for. He is rude to nearly all, abrasive and always in attack mode.

There are already rules against racist dialog and hate dialog, as Frank pointed out. The only thing that needs to be done is to delete those posts that are racist in nature when reported. Anyone who is offended by the post can easily do that.

Indeed, once Anthony enters a thread, it becomes a great deal more offensive than it ever would have been without him.

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Electrical

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Indeed, once Anthony enters a thread, it becomes a great deal more offensive than it ever would have been without him.

This is the most important thing for the site staff to understand.

Racism isn't the problem in this forum, it's people like Mike Anthony.

Mike Anthony brought race into a thread which never mentioned it before he arrived.
I ask Mike a question about it, whether he felt it was or wasn't racist. At that time I was on a friendly basis with him.
He immediately made an assumption on the way I felt (which he was wrong) and attacked me and called me a racist, then continued to insult me, flat out calling me an idiot, stupid, etc. etc.
I asked him multiple times to quote me saying anything that he accused me of, but he ignored it while he continued to call me a racist and attack me.

I'm far from the first person that Mike has done this to with impunity. This is why I won't use my real name here and this is why I won't associate any part of my identity with this place.

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nik0

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Electrical

This is the most important thing for the site staff to understand.

Racism isn't the problem in this forum, it's people like Mike Anthony.

Mike Anthony brought race into a thread which never mentioned it before he arrived.
I ask Mike a question about it, whether he felt it was or wasn't racist. At that time I was on a friendly basis with him.
He immediately made an assumption on the way I felt (which he was wrong) and attacked me and called me a racist, then continued to insult me, flat out calling me an idiot, stupid, etc. etc.
I asked him multiple times to quote me saying anything that he accused me of, but he ignored it while he continued to call me a racist and attack me.

I'm far from the first person that Mike has done this to with impunity. This is why I won't use my real name here and this is why I won't associate any part of my identity with this place.

He is quite known for "selective" reading.

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Robert Michael

9 years ago

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Kay King

9 years ago

There are 2-3 people (very small group in other words) who take offense easily and a few who use words fully intended to set off those people.

Mike A is one who is quick to assume insult - and nikO is one quick to use words like "ghetto" meant to poke at thin skinned folks. Neither behavior should be applauded.

In a previous thread I saw Mike A going into rants - but also saw a couple people who are also in this thread who appeared to be deliberately taunting. Grow up, folks!

It's ludicrous to suggest race not be mentioned in any context - it is part of some news stories we discuss in OT - it also at times can be a factor in a target market whether you like it or not.

BUT - there are many minorities represented on this forum. Why is it the same 2-3 people of one minority who always seem to start the racist rants here? Over the years it seems to me it's always worse when there are racially-focused sensationalized new stories in the media. I don't think it's deliberate but that people allow themselves to expect problems/insults and so find them even when they weren't intended.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

BUT - there are many minorities represented on this forum. Why is it the same 2-3 people of one minority who always seem to start the racist rants here? Over the years it seems to me it's always worse when there are racially-focused sensationalized new stories in the media. I don't think it's deliberate but that people allow themselves to expect problems/insults and so find them even when they weren't intended.

There are several who are not in a minority group who routinely throw out race bait with the intention of starting yet another racially charged dialog.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's ludicrous to suggest race not be mentioned in any context - it is part of some news stories we discuss in OT - it also at times can be a factor in a target market whether you like it or not.

My lady
(no sarcasm or belittling. If you recall in happier days before we discussed race I ocassionally called you that)

I never suggested not mentioning race. We mention Obama and mayors but not discuss politics but okay secondary suggestion. You mentioned marketing so why not approach it as such. If we were targeting a market based on race we would not talk about or at the race we would talk to the people of the race. we'd ask questions, poll, look to learn.I'd ask questions to learn about your perspective and if you were engaged to enter my market you'd ask me

This is NOT the kinds of marketing like discussions we are having. Many of these blow ups happen because its the exact opposite. People start out with commentary about a race from their own perspective. if it was a marketing exercise we wouldn't move any product. theres a definite us and them component. People are saying left and right you can't stop racism (no one said you could) or racist comments (not about that but removing subjective perspectives from one mod to the other). However the very nature of discussions merely ABOUT a race or AT a race by the very nature of their presumptions ENCOURAGES the downward spiral of those conversations in the same way that if a man talks about his wife to his family in her presence or at his wife the chance of rain storms ahead dramatically increases unless he is showering nothing but praises.

For example I would love to hear more about this.

BUT - there are many minorities represented on this forum. Why is it the same 2-3 people of one minority who always seem to start the racist rants here? Over the years it seems to me it's always worse when there are racially-focused sensationalized new stories in the media. I don't think it's deliberate but that people allow themselves to expect problems/insults and so find them even when they weren't intended.

Honestly the questions floors me. I really cannot see how you cannot see the answer when 90% of the discussions on race among regulars are about two colors. Black and white and that leaves only one minority to work with and yet that questions reads like .....why don;t THEY get it together?

I'm not trying to attack you I am asking you to explain where you are coming from in the spirit of what I just wrote above. Then again this might ot be the place for it but I am about 90% sure not under the very eyes of our admin this would turn to mud in the OT section in no time and pardon me but I don't think it would be the people accused of race baiting that are getting all the blame here that would be the ones taking it there.

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Icematikx 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Electrical

Racism isn't the problem in this forum, it's people like Mike Anthony.

Everyday, you come across thousands of people. Each person is wired differently. Each person has their own collective thoughts and opinions - as does Mike.

Don't get me wrong. Mike gets on my tits frequently. But, you either rise to it and take it offensively, or you turn it into Banter. Fortunately, in the UK, we're born in a culture where offensive language is common place, and banter is easy to have with anybody.

To some, I can see why Mike comes across as offensive and attacking in nature.

The truth is, when two people have conflicting opinions, and there's actually no definitive REAL answer, insults will break out. It's in our blood to win (at least from a male PoV). With SEO, there are no answers - only speculation, case studies and our own tests. There is no definitive guide to SEO.

What I think works will be different to what works for Mike, Nik0 and yourself. I can't prove to you that mine is better. I can explain it, and tell you my results - but it's up to you whether you take it onboard.

Mike is very set in his own ways, and rarely takes onboard the guidance of others. Would he be a good Marketing Manager? Hell no. But he'd be a pretty good Marketing Exec where his stubbornness pays off as he employs his own ideas without consulting others.

Just remember. Every person has a different personality - we're all wired differently. For example, I don't do small talk. I also enjoy alone time. Others are extreme extroverts and feel tired and restless if they are alone for longer than an hour.

The world would be pretty bland without this mix of people.
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- sbucciarel Banned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Icematikx
  
  The truth is, when two people have conflicting opinions, and there's actually no definitive REAL answer, insults will break out.
  
  Personal attacks and insults have never been allowed in this forum. When reported, they disappear rapidly and when the attacker does it frequently enough, they get banned.
  
  Conflicting opinions are posted here all the time in a civil enough manner that they aren't a personal attack.
  
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Robert Michael

9 years ago

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

Allow me to sum it up.

Now, I'm just guessing/assuming that most of the members here are from the US. I'm sure a lot of people would agree with that, right?

Well.. unfortunately, the citizens of the US "don't give a f**k about anything" - yet we are always offended by something.*

Ironic, if i do say so myself.

*does not include me. It is very, very hard to offend me.

According to Alexa, Visitors/Members come from:

India 20.4% RANK 327
United States 16.5% RANK 1,239
Australia 6.0% RANK 197
United Kingdom 5.5% RANK 431
Canada 3.9% RANK 442

So, no. Most of the members are not from the US.

... and I'm sure that you're speaking for yourself about not giving a f**k about anything.

EDIT: I'm going to expand on this answer. Mike had a small point about racism in the OT forum, but the wrong approach altogether. He compounded a problem with an additional problem and that problem is the one of really nasty personal attacks on anyone and everyone. Ever since he decided to grace the OT forum with his presence, it has been a lot of threads closed and nastiness that was caused by his posts. The OT wasn't as fun to read and post in because of him. He was tolerated in the SEO forum because the SEO has it's own culture and believe me, I can't stand to read that forum for more than 5 minutes at a time, but his abusive posting doesn't fly in other forums here.

There is already rules that disallow disparaging others due to their race or culture, etc. The only thing that needs to be done is to watch it, report it and delete it. Racism is ugly and there should be no place for it in a business forum, or anywhere else for that matter, but that's not going to stop it. Zero tolerance will help to stop it.

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Joel Young

9 years ago

The solution is to have all posts approved before they can be seen. That way, the admins and mods can censor and edit and make our words nice & shiny, so no one gets offended. ....well, except for those who get offended by censorship and editing.

Maybe we should just close the site.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Wow almost can't be bothered replying but if I leave a couple of these unanswered it will go down as fact. Alright then

this is an interesting case study that I think can assist where the divide is. Who knows if you all still won;t agree with this poster. If so there might not be much more to say (if there is anyway)

"Mike Anthony brought race into a thread which never mentioned it before he arrived."

He's been saying this all over the place and its an interesting perspective

I need do nothing but quote from the thread in question to rebut this poster.Its illustrative
of and highlights my point . Heres how nebulous pulling the race card/race bait is
around here. This is just one money quote

Originally Posted by nik0

You're black and behave like some low life so for me you're like straight from the ghetto.

IF thats not racist to this community then tell me exactly what is? IF it isn;t then I suspect nothing will qualify for it. the poster Electrical insisted and insists to this day this kind of thing is fine, not racist and I was the one race baiting and is offended I drew conclusions about him based on that .

Its 2014 - I don't care what the argument is or how heated it gets race should have nothing
to do with ANY Part of any response. SO rather than nothing to do with race until I
took it there the thread went racist when a poster who knew (from many previous
conversations) that I was an African American made a slur that I came from the ghetto and he put up an Elvis Presley music video about chicago ghettos. He confirmed above as you can see for yourselves he had every intention of connecting it to race. Shucks he even added he specifically did to be offensive (but is here claiming I was selective no doubt because he figured I would not be able to respond any time soon )

If objecting to that is just being "thin skinned" as Kay characterizes it then thin skinned is just code word for don't object to racism.

I'd love an INTELLIGENT conversation how that is not racist but this illustrates my point.
There is nothing to say the kind of person like Electric won't ever be a mod and be
totally blind to obvious and undeniable racism much less its subtler but nevertheless real
versions. Realize - this he really and sincerely believes that my responding to that racist statement was ME race baiting. Its got the point now where I think no one knows what it means and each makes up what race baiting is as they go along for themselves

Electrical even claimed certain kinds of speech were alright because he called
some people white trash. I am not interested in that either . Its equally filthy and offensive and serves even as a majority example of why color should have no part here.

So Nikos racist charge and Electrical's support of it proves my point beautifully. If you can't make any of those references then its not subjective to a mod's point of view. Its plain and cut. It probably will not happen but don't complain about racing baiting and pulling the race card if its code word for don't rock the boat by objecting to racism. Of course its going to be more inflammatory if a no nonsense poster of the race being talked about enters the discussion. You can Spin the three people "only from one race" out the
door and maybe even the group "outside of minorities" people CLAIM (perhaps some do but not all) are race baiting too but you'll still have issues unless the doors are closed to new members .

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

9 out of 10 Americans will probably tell you that they don't give a **** about whatever you throw their way. If you haven't encountered this by now, you haven't met enough Americans

Still have no clue what exactly your point is, but I'm American and have never left this country, so I think I've met my fair share of Americans and you don't speak for me.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I need do nothing but quote from the thread in question to rebut this poster.Its illustrative of and highlights my point . Heres how nebulous pulling the race card/race bait is around here. This is just one money quote

IF thats not racist to this community then tell me exactly what is? IF it isn;t then I suspect nothing will qualify for it.

It is a racist quote. Did you report it? That's my point. You can just ban all discussion of race any more than you can really ban all discussion of "politics." As you've seen if you've read the OT forum, politics sneaks in through the back door all the time and generally stays until it rises to the level of personal attacks or someone starting to report the posts.

How can you discuss Ferguson or other similar news without mentioning race? You can't because it is a story about racism. I personally would like to never hear about it again, but sweeping things under the rug don't make them disappear.

Then there's the "subconscious racist." Some are so hardwired racist that statements that they make are clearly racist when they aren't really even trying to make a racist point. I've seen it over and over and just shake my head.

Racism is deeply ingrained in some and you can't change that. You can report racist posts and I'm certain they will be deleted, but inciting a riot in a thread will do nothing to improve race relations, nor will it change a racist. It is just adds more contention to an already contentious topic.

I've seen many posts about Muslims and they normally go unchallenged, although I'm certain that there are many Muslim members here and they are most likely offended by it. I've seen the white trash comments and to tell you the truth, that one doesn't even bother me, and I'm white. I think that's probably because that's a term that even white people use for their own race.

I wouldn't be opposed at all to "brutal" moderation of posts that are racist, but you aren't going to stop racism by saying that we're not allowed to mention race at all... and I can tell you the end result will just be people referring to it by code rather than spelling it out, and I can assure you that it will be just as offensive.

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Electrical

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

It is a racist quote. Did you report it?

What you have to understand is that nik0 didn't make that quote until the very end of the whole argument. Nik0 made that statement after Mike brought race into multiple threads and attacked Nik0 throughout dozens of posts. After so many countless insults and attacks, Nik0 finally decided to go on the offensive as well and posted that statement because he knew it would get under Mike's skin.

I've seen the white trash comments and to tell you the truth, that one doesn't even bother me, and I'm white. I think that's probably because that's a term that even white people use for their own race.

You see, that's what I said. I said that if I was white I wouldn't be offended if someone said I was from the trailer park. That's all I said, but Mike spun that into something it wasn't. Although I never made any comment on whether saying blacks are from the ghetto is racist or not, he made an assumption and then called me a racist over 15 different times as well as insulting my character and intelligence, flat out calling me an idiot, stupid, saying that I am "Hiding under a white sheet (KKK reference) etc. And when I asked him to quote me saying something racist, he ignored it and continued to attack me. He still never once quoted me saying what he accused me off, nor did he apologize for making that huge mistake. All he did was cry foul because it's him, a black guy (who I only knew was black because he keeps saying it), against the world.

I still find it crazy that someone could be so hypocritical. He attacks and insults people all day in almost every post, attacking their livelihood, their character, etc. yet he cries like a baby when someone makes one mildly insulting statement to him. And then he wants the entire forum to change in order to make sure that no one can ever say something that offends him again.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Electrical

What you have to understand is that nik0 didn't make that quote until the very end of the whole argument. Nik0 made that statement after Mike brought race into multiple threads and attacked Nik0 throughout dozens of posts. After so many countless insults and attacks, Nik0 finally decided to go on the offensive as well and posted that statement because he knew it would get under Mike's skin.

You see, that's what I said. I said that if I was white I wouldn't be offended if someone said I was from the trailer park. That's all I said, but Mike spun that into something it wasn't. Although I never made any comment on whether saying blacks are from the ghetto is racist or not, he made an assumption and then called me a racist over 15 different times as well as insulting my character and intelligence, flat out calling me an idiot, stupid, saying that I am "Hiding under a white sheet (KKK reference) etc. And when I asked him to quote me saying something racist, he ignored it and continued to attack me. He still never once quoted me saying what he accused me off, nor did he apologize for making that huge mistake. All he did was cry foul because it's him, a black guy (who I only knew was black because he keeps saying it), against the world.

I still find it crazy that someone could be so hypocritical. He attacks and insults people all day in almost every post, attacking their livelihood, their character, etc. yet he cries like a baby when someone makes one mildly insulting statement to him. And then he wants the entire forum to change in order to make sure that no one can ever say something that offends him again.

I know exactly what you are saying and the inflammatory attacks on people in OT are no more acceptable than the racism is. I report personal attacks on people even if they aren't directed at me, and I'm going to start reporting racist remarks more than I have.

I honestly think that if some people can't discuss controversial topics civilly, then the OT forum should be hidden from their view and they should not be allowed to participate, and I know that VB forum functions allow that.

One person should not be able to trash a forum because they're on a crusade. No one should be allowed to disparage people because of their race ... never, under any circumstances (and that includes disparaging remarks about a race generally) ... and no one should get away with personal attacks.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Electrical

What you have to understand is that nik0 didn't make that quote until the very end of the whole argument. Nik0 made that statement after Mike brought race into multiple threads and attacked Nik0 throughout dozens of posts. After so many countless insults and attacks, Nik0 finally decided to go on the offensive as well and posted that statement because he knew it would get under Mike's skin.

I am NOT going to have the same debate with this poster here especially since he is belligerent in ignoring Niko's own words but I will say to what I told him elsewhere so people understand the context that Electrical absolutely rejected. NIk0 and I have history and believe it or not that history included friendship at one time and many cordial and semi-cordial discussions on a small forum I used to have. Electrical is new to that forum and I tried to explain to him how I knew what Niko was getting at. We have discussed many things and Niko was acutely aware of my ethnicity. Furthermore anyone reading the thread will see that Electrical is contradicted by niko himself who l stated point blank that that is why he made the reference.

Originally Posted by nik0

Apology? Hell no, the whole reason I posted that was to offense him in the first place

Thats it I am not going to rehash the same argument further here . the poster simply does not want the comment to be racist and has come up with all kinds of gymnastic reasons why its not and its all my fault. Thats how far claims of race baiting can go - pure denial.

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Electrical 9 years ago

It's funny that my quote in the above post is confirmed by the quote from Nik0.

Nik0 was attacked and insulted and finally decided to fight back and say something that he knew would offend the guy who had been attacking his livelihood, character, and intelligence for quite some time earlier.

If you are going to be that guy who attacks everyone in every post you make, it doesn't make sense for you to cry when someone snaps and replies with something that offends you. That seems like you are looking for a certain reaction, what's another words for that.... baiting?
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lgibbon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I need do nothing but quote from the thread in question to rebut this poster.Its illustrative
of and highlights my point . Heres how nebulous pulling the race card/race bait is
around here. This is just one money quote

That doesn't highlight a point at all.
Have you checked that members posts at all?
That sort of abuse isn't a one off or targetted solely at race, far from it.
Please don't tar everyone with that brush.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by lgibbon

That doesn't highlight a point at all.
Have you checked that members posts at all?
That sort of abuse isn't a one off or targetted solely at race, far from it.
Please don't tar everyone with that brush.

LG I'm not. Nebulous nature refers to the indefinite hazy limits of a thing. Its the opposite of painting everyone with the same brush. In your analogy it would be more that no one can agree what a bush is. That poster had a definition an d its quite certain that the several members of a majority group that Suzanne refers to do not all agree they are race baiting so they have different definitions so yeah it illustrates that point.

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Kay King

9 years ago

I hope this message gets through all of you.

The message I get is a lectgure by a "moderator" as to how we should or should not respond - and how to plan our opinions/posts, etc.

I've seen some great improvements in how the new moderators are handling spam and scams here - but this thread seems to me in danger of over-moderation. I've noticed in the past week or two several threads deleted or closed where there was no real problem - but seems someone thought there "MIGHT BE" a problem.

It's a real trick to moderate a forum like this while also keeping your personal opinion from dictating your actions....but it's necessary to do that.

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Electrical

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

The message I get is a lectgure by a "moderator" as to how we should or should not respond - and how to plan our opinions/posts, etc.

I've seen some great improvements in how the new moderators are handling spam and scams here - but this thread seems to me in danger of over-moderation. I've noticed in the past week or two several threads deleted or closed where there was no real problem - but seems someone thought there "MIGHT BE" a problem.

It's a real trick to moderate a forum like this while also keeping your personal opinion from dictating your actions....but it's necessary to do that.

Yeah, over-moderation for sure. I saw an entire thread here disappear today just because a moderator and a few other people made silly assumptions that the long time member was doing something naughty.

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Electrical

9 years ago

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Rick Rodd

9 years ago

Can't we all just coexist even in the Off-Topic Forum?

Case in point: admittance that we are not all equal. Coz if we are, we lose our unique self. Our attributes, personalities and that which makes us human. If you know how to respect yourself, then you have the capacity or propensity to do so with others. Some cultures call it Manners, or the Golden Rule. Whatever floats your boat.

Case in point: Though we are different, We feel and understand. We may agree or disagree; love or hate; create or destroy; unite or scatter. Whatever our motives are, we are here to make ourselves to be heard and identified as a unique individual. Anyone who does not subscribe to the first case need not proceed to the

Case in point: Hate and Disparity is what's not allowed on the Off-Topic Forum. Freedom of Speech, indeed. But, also there's Freedom of Silence. If you have nothing good to say, better keep it to yourself. That one sentence sums up the OT Forum's rule (and the whole Warrior Forum, in general)

This has nothing to do with specifics, really. May it be religious or political or racist or whatever-offends-you-and-your-personality as long as you are deeply afflicted of the discussions/going-ons of the topic, either report or ignore the thread.

I believe WF members are better than this, that the people here are an intelligent bunch. Which goes without saying, Why 'seemingly' smart people do such idiotic things ??

Failure to empathize and to think ahead whether what we are about to say on our posts would be hurtful or bring strife to the community is the real issue here.

So...

Let's just all get along, shall we?

I hope this message gets through all of you.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

Can't we all just coexist even in the Off-Topic Forum?

Case in point: admittance that we are not all equal. Coz if we are, we lose our unique self. Our attributes, personalities and that which makes us human. If you know how to respect yourself, then you have the capacity or propensity to do so with others. Some cultures call it Manners, or the Golden Rule. Whatever floats your boat.

Of all the forums here, Rick, the Off Topic is the one that has the potential to be the most contentious because almost anything can be discussed, and we are all different have very different upbringing and points of view. Being different however, does not mean that we are not all equal. I don't buy that one. We are all equal and to suggest that we aren't would promote the very sort of racist attitudes that we're discussing here.

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

Case in point: Hate and Disparity is what's not allowed on the Off-Topic Forum. Freedom of Speech, indeed. But, also there's Freedom of Silence. If you have nothing good to say, better keep it to yourself. That one sentence sums up the OT Forum's rule (and the whole Warrior Forum, in general)

While that seems a good point, you do realize that many of the posts here are "nothing good to say" and to promote Freedom of Silence would be to simply stifle conversations here. There are a lot of topics that we all have opinions on that are of a controversial nature and some that there is truly nothing good to say about it. I'd say a topic like Ferguson was one of those and yet it was discussed ad nauseum. If controversy and heated debate, both in OT and the other forums are routinely just zapped, you'll find that people will simply abandon this forum in even greater numbers than they have. There are differing viewpoints on just about everything and spirited debates have always been a part of WF culture. If you sanitize this forum too much and hinder debate and freedom of expression, you'll have a lot fewer people here to moderate.

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

This has nothing to do with specifics, really. May it be religious or political or racist or whatever-offends-you-and-your-personality as long as you are deeply afflicted of the discussions/going-ons of the topic, either report or ignore the thread.

The part I think is a slippery slope for the above stated reasons is "the whatever offends you and your personality" part. Do you really want to encourage people to report whatever offends them and do you think it wise to act on people's petty annoyances? Again, if the conversations become to sanitized or all we're allowed to discuss is music, puppies and butterflies, this forum will become a ghost town.

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

Failure to empathize and to think ahead whether what we are about to say on our posts would be hurtful or bring strife to the community is the real issue here.

So...

Let's just all get along, shall we?

I hope this message gets through all of you.

I do hope you take this in the spirit of debate that is intended. I mean no disrespect to moderators here at all, but I've seen different moderation styles going on for years now and none of them ever hindered true freedom of speech with exception of to make members abide by long standing rules and to disallow two topics that nearly almost end up as a train wreck.

I saw a thread about Pirate Bay closure promptly deleted the other day and I was going to post about it myself until I saw one thread about it. I have no clue why that topic would be deleted. It was in OT and piracy is very relevant to Internet Marketers, but beside that ... what exactly is wrong with discussing a major site on the Internet going down? We've discussed the other file sharing sites going down.

Finally, disagreement on topics isn't really "not getting along." There will always be disagreements and as long as the forum is open, some of them will get heated. It's actually a part of what makes having conversations here interesting. I've participated in many heated conversations here, but it doesn't mean that I'm not getting along with the people in the thread. I respect most of them and even like most of the people I disagree with, and I think that's true of most here.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Rick Rodd

I hope this message gets through all of you.

Point taken and I also get your other point. we are not all equal in the sense that A does not equal B but no letter of the alphabet is inferior.

In the last thread before I was given a day off a poster posted a reply to my idea of not allowing race conversations here she said

"oh its you" in a derogatory tone. That got the ball rolling

I'd love to claim the high ground but I can't. I'm guilty of carry over from previous disagreements which is all that was. I probably have been for years due to things I've seen. She only posted what I thought.

I've avoided a certain poster's responses here in part because the poster and I were instructed to tone it down between each other. That third party - alaister - indicted us BOTH equally for being nasty at each other in a previous discussion about management. We both got PMs

there are not just one but two post from her that are all essentially "oh its you so I am going to try and take a suggestion thread and and try to blame you for everything" perhaps except global warning

But how can i say more against her carry over? I am guilty as charged of thinking "oh its you so here take this". t.

I'm going to try to quit that. Your message got through to one at least. When and if I respond in threads I am going to check myself every time and ask if what I am about to say is about the issue or about the person and carry over. Discussions are better when they are posted on the basis of the subject not history of disagreements anyway.

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Kay King

9 years ago

Discussions are better when they are posted on the basis of the subject not history of disagreements anyway.

You're right and discussions are more interesting when we at least try to understand how the dissenting person arrives at their opinion - rather than coming at them with a knee jerk defensive reaction.

We're all guilty of it sometimes, Mike - we just have to keep trying to be better. Sometimes I have to remind myself "it's just a forum" and I know there are people I don't like much here that I probably would enjoy knowing in real life.

kay

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

and I know there are people I don't like much here that I probably would enjoy knowing in real life.

kay

Based on happier times I would have probably put you at the top of my list Kay. I do want to add in defense of RIck's post. Don't you think there might be a whole lot of carry over in that pretty icy reply to his post that was so balanced I couldn't figure out who it was more directed at and would have guessed myself?

Its been the theme of detractor's in this thread to my suggestion that things should be left to mods to decide but it seems thats abandoned in a newsflash by some of the same people holding that view when Mod's' decide in ways that you don't like. Its a leave it to the mods unless we disagree with the mod's position because we should get to mod the mods

Personal opinions have ALWAYS dictated moderation and administration action on this forum. its mythological that that was not the case so mods must now meet that standard. The only thing that MIGHT have changed is that the opinions are not as in keeping with some people opinions as they previously liked. That was the the whole point for my suggestion BTW - it takes personal opinion out of what is racist and whats not and just leaves the ongoing discussion of race off the forums entirely.

At any rate let the mod's decide until we don't like their decision is not a logically coherent position and Suzanne's not so subtle if you decide we can't discuss certain issues people will walk is defied by the numbers on this board at any time of day.

Off topic always has vastly lower numbers participating than the WSO section, the main board and SEO (I bet a great many don't even know and certainly don't care that it exists)and even of the number in there the majority don't discuss race and even of those only a handful would say "If we can't discuss ferguson we are out". Frankly anyone that would say goodbye over that is either already partially or totally disengaged from the main goal of talking internet marketing that this board is about anyway.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Its been the theme of detractor's in this thread to my suggestion that things should be left to mods to decide but it seems thats abandoned in a newsflash by some of the same people holding that view when Mod's' decide in ways that you don't like. Its a leave it to the mods unless we disagree with the mod's position because we should get to mod the mods

Personal opinions have ALWAYS dictated moderation and administration action on this forum. its mythological that that was not the case so mods must now meet that standard. The only thing that MIGHT have changed is that the opinions are not as in keeping with some people opinions as they previously liked. That was the the whole point for my suggestion BTW - it takes personal opinion out of what is racist and whats not and just leaves the ongoing discussion of race off the forums entirely.

At any rate let the mod's decide until we don't like their decision is not a logically coherent position and Suzanne's not so subtle if you decide we can't discuss certain issues people will walk is defied by the numbers on this board at any time of day.

Off topic always has vastly lower numbers participating than the WSO section, the main board and SEO (I bet a great many don't even know and certainly don't care that it exists)and even of the number in there the majority don't discuss race and even of those only a handful would say "If we can't discuss ferguson we are out". Frankly anyone that would say goodbye over that is either already partially or totally disengaged from the main goal of talking internet marketing that this board is about anyway.

Once again with the reading miscomprehension. My post has nothing to do with leaving it to the mods unless we don't like it and everything to do with new, inexperienced mods, who I happen to like and have a dialog with, over-moderating or over-reacting to what may appear to them to be a flame fest, when in fact, it's just another day on the forum.

Rick pm'd me after I posted and we had a nice conversation and he was not at all offended by my suggestions. I did not say if we can't discuss Ferguson we are out. In fact, I made it clear that the topic has been discussed ad nauseum < a word for nausea. I'd be quite happy if it weren't discussed yet again.

But my opinion is that well meaning and inexperienced mods will make mistakes, as will experienced mods, and over-moderation is never good for a forum, no matter what section you are talking about. A forum, is after all, for discussions and to expect that everybody will have the same opinions and that some of those opinions will never get heated is a fantasy. I was merely explaining to Rick, and he understands my viewpoint, that "heat" does not equal an all out flame war.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

I'm not going to do a back and forth with you Suzanne. In accordance with Alaister's admonishment to us both (which defies the notion MA is the only who can get "nasty" as you have tried to paint in this thread) I have avoided answering you directly. I however have no issue with reading comprehension skills

If controversy and heated debate, both in OT and the other forums are routinely just zapped, you'll find that people will simply abandon this forum in even greater numbers than they have.

What mods zap should be up to mod's discretion has been your and others claims. Claiming at one point that controversial subjects like race should be moderated at the mod's discretion but taking issue when they do on that or other issues and you don't like it is logically incoherent. Plus if its routine as you qualified it tends to speak to general policy not just a wayward mod.

and I stand by it - claiming people will leave in great numbers because a controversial subject is taken off an internet marketing forum is not backed by the numbers that participate in the off topic forum where they are presently debated and where only really a handful get involved even there in controversial discussions.

Over moderation itself is a very subjective expression as people who don't have an issue with something personally are more likely to claim over moderation than those who do.

I'm glad you discussed by PM but I responded with no reading miscomprehension to the above public quote.

P.S. Ferguson is an example not the specific point.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

What mods zap should be up to mod's discretion has been your and others claims. Claiming at one point that controversial subjects like race should be moderated at the mod's discretion but taking issue when they do on that or other issues and you don't like it is logically incoherent.

and I stand by it - claiming people will leave in great numbers because a controversial subject is taken off an internet marketing forum is not backed by the numbers that participate in the off topic forum where they are presently debated and where only really a handful get involved even there in controversial discussions.

I'm glad you discussed by PM but I responded with no reading comprehension to the above public quote.

You are singularly focused on one issue and on one forum. It isn't a matter of taking down a controversial subject, as you suggest. It is an over-moderation in general. It hasn't been an enormous problem, but I will tell you this. The mods are completely open to suggestions and are a good and hardworking bunch of people tasked with a difficult job, with little experience in this particular forum. They will always make their own decisions, based on what admin directs, but they don't hesitate to listen and take help and suggestions in the spirit that they are presented.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You are singularly focused on one issue and on one forum.

I'll respond to that and leave off this direct exchange. No I am not. Truth be told our carry over with each other has a lot more to do with our previous heated discussion on an entirely different subject and we both know what it was. its the one BOTH got PMs on for getting "nasty" with each other.

You can and probably will deny the carry over from that but this brush paintng that I am on a one issue campaign on race is utterly false. I've taken heat from around half the people in this thread based on an entirely different issue and for strongly defending rather than always attacking as you claim. That does not take away from what I admitted to earlier about carry over. It just serves to rebut this one dimensional caricature you have been trying to paint of another human being.

Nuff said

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Nuff said

/end of conversation

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Kay King

9 years ago

Don't you think there might be a whole lot of carry over in that pretty icy reply to his post that was so balanced I couldn't figure out who it was more directed at and would have guessed myself?

It wasn't at you - guess that's your carryover

I was surprised at someone with a bold 'moderator' under his name presuming to tell people what and how they should post. My opinion only.

I'm probably wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

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Mike Anthony 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It wasn't at you

Hmmm I am checking and can't find where I said it was. I would have thought the words "defense" "of rick's" "post" right before what you quoted would have made that dead easy to figure out

I'm probably wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

We agree!!
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Can we just add Race as another subject to be off limits on WF like Politics and Religion?

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