Give product sellers the option to disable comments on their WSO threads

98 replies
Hi everyone,

We have received some feedback in regards to giving product sellers the option to disable comments on their WSO threads.

Allowing sellers to list closed WSO threads, could attract more sellers with high quality products who have left the forum due to the harassment and the huge amount of time it took to handle all comments. For large sellers with a big list, they would create a WSO, email their list and then potentially get bombarded with too many comments to handle, spam and irrelevant replies.
Of course the sellers would still need to follow by all the new WSO rules.

I also see the benefit of allowing comments from people which are relevant to the WSO. It allows a public avenue for people to clarify points, ask questions and leave legitimate reviews. This public history of conversation helps others who are interested in the product.

Perhaps the solution is to give the seller the choice or maybe allow this option for experienced sellers only.

I wanted to open up the conversation and see what the community thinks in regards to this.
#comments #disable #give #option #product #sellers #threads #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Interesting idea but I'm not sure how disabling comments on a Special offer thread would be helpful to a seller.

    It sort of comes with the territory right?

    This is a forum where valid discussion is encouraged and as it relates to a WSO pre-sales
    questions are a great way for a vendor to spot holes in their copy and update or add a FAQ post right under the offer. A lot already do this and update it frequently.

    I'm wondering if those who've suggested it even realize that they can get FRONT page exposure of their WSO on the WF each time a comment is made? LOL Granted it updates each time a new comment is made but still.

    Which brings me to a potential tweak? Why not let the last post section for the WSO display the last 5 or 10 instead? Just a little added benefit for sellers to get some more bang for their buck?

    Anyways back to the topic at hand.

    I think the snarky comments, and spam comments are the real issue and I believe just like the forum is making BIG changes to the WSO rules and enforcing them the same should go for handling these types of posts on their paid advertisements as well.

    Most likely these will not be so predominant as the offers get cleaned up as well.

    At any rate, if a vendor creates a WSO and them mails their list they undoubtedly are going to not only get questions on their thread but they'll get emails directly to their support desk it just comes with the territory!

    So I think it's not a good idea to disable the social interaction by disabling comments on WSO threads.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Removing the ability to comment removes accountability. Where exactly would a buyer post that the product was not as advertised? Where would they post that they requested and did not receive a refund? Product reviews have long been an important part of WSOs.

    If someone is too busy (which is a lame excuse for supersellers who could easily outsource customer support) to answer pre-sell questions and receive honest reviews from legitimate buyers, then I think they should just sell elsewhere where they can remain immune from feedback.

    It has always been the case that harassment and reviews from non-buyers was simply not allowed. Period... and all they need to do is report those posts that don't meet the standard of an honest review by a buyer or a legitimate pre-sell question.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I think it would be excellent as an OPTION for sellers.

      We used to have some big dog marketers who sold their products at a discount to WF members. They left due to the rude replies and skepticism from people who do nothing but tear others down.

      There are offers that would work well with no comments - and honestly many of the comments these days are not worth paying attention to.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I think it would be excellent as an OPTION for sellers.

        We used to have some big dog marketers who sold their products at a discount to WF members. They left due to the rude replies and skepticism from people who do nothing but tear others down.

        There are offers that would work well with no comments - and honestly many of the comments these days are not worth paying attention to.
        Snarky comments and armchair quarterbacking are not allowed. All the seller has to do is report it. Big dog marketers shouldn't get a pass from honest reviews from buyers any more than smaller sellers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          We used to have great deals (usually time limited) on products released by big name marketers to the general IM public. Those have disappeared and in part perhaps due to the necessity to constantly answer questions and respond to comments.

          There's no downside to trying it that I can see.

          If buyers were uncomfortable with the no-comment option, products wouldn't sell and the sellers would go back to comments.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            There's no downside to trying it that I can see.
            There's no downside for me. I rely heavily on user reviews and simply wouldn't buy from anyone who didn't have them.
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  • Profile picture of the author DJL
    My immediate reaction to a WSO that disabled comments would be:
    "What is this seller trying to hide?"
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    • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
      Originally Posted by DJL View Post

      My immediate reaction to a WSO that disabled comments would be:
      "What is this seller trying to hide?"
      Looks like your avatar is contemplating that very question.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    I recently had to close a WSO. A successful WSO that had been bombarded with "I didn't get my download link" comments. Close to 100 buyers successfully downloaded their purchase because they were able to follow simple instructions. Six or seven didn't follow instructions and came to the thread complaining they didn't get the product.

    These complaints killed the offer (people came to the thread looking to buy and didn't because of the comments) and I was eventually forced to take a successful WSO, that would still be selling, down. Being able to delete or turn off commenting would have been a blessing.
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    • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      I recently had to close a WSO. A successful WSO that had been bombarded with "I didn't get my download link" comments. Close to 100 buyers successfully downloaded their purchase because they were able to follow simple instructions. Six or seven didn't follow instructions and came to the thread complaining they didn't get the product.

      These complaints killed the offer (people came to the thread looking to buy and didn't because of the comments) and I was eventually forced to take a successful WSO, that would still be selling, down. Being able to delete or turn off commenting would have been a blessing.
      So you would sooner turn them off and ignore PM's than help people who buy your product?

      Why make the download so hard anyway, were there further hoops to jump through after paying?

      These complaints killed the offer (people came to the thread looking to buy and didn't because of the comments) how do you know this is the reason they didnt buy?
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Originally Posted by Valdor Kiebach View Post

        Why make the download so hard anyway, were there further hoops to jump through after paying?
        Valdor, I think you're making some unfounded assumptions here. This is a frequent problem in WSO threads. I've seen it time and again over the years. A lot of people - especially those new to the WSO purchase process - often miss one or two simple steps and then complain that they never received the product. It's not the seller's fault; it's that many buyers fail to follow very simple instructions for accessing the product.

        As for Alaister's suggestion - I have mixed feelings about it. I can understand the time commitment of the seller, although, as Suzanne suggested, they could hire a customer support person to handle those questions.

        I think in order to allow this, it would need to be limited to sellers who have an excellent reputation. The dilemma there would be how to determine who meets that criteria, and who will be making that decision. I certainly would not recommend opening this up to newer sellers - or even most sellers.
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      • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
        Originally Posted by Valdor Kiebach View Post

        So you would sooner turn them off and ignore PM's than help people who buy your product?

        Why make the download so hard anyway, were there further hoops to jump through after paying?

        These complaints killed the offer (people came to the thread looking to buy and didn't because of the comments) how do you know this is the reason they didnt buy?
        Why would you assume I ignored PM's? How do you come to the conclusion that I made it hard? How do you come to the conclusion there were further hoops? There were no hoops. There was no OTO. There was no forced optin. There was nothing but a page with a link to the download page. That's it. Like I said, nearly 100 buyers had no trouble with it.

        Still, a handful of people missed it and posted their "problem" in the thread. And after I saw these people were having trouble I posted the instructions in the thread. Those instructions were THIS BIG - NO EXAGGERATION And even with the instructions in big red letters there were people that still didn't get it.

        And how do I know people didn't buy because of the comments? Because several people came to the thread, read the comments and then left comments of their own. Stuff like, "I'd like to get this thing but obviously there's a problem getting the product." But there wasn't a problem. And they didn't buy. So I closed the thread and it will be LONG time, if ever, that I put up another WSO.
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        • Earlier, I stated the reasons why I believe it would be a good idea to give sellers the option to disable comments on their paid WSO threads. I did not, however, share my past, personal experience when I was selling a WSO several years ago.

          Since I have emphatically stated that I believe it's a very good idea to give sellers the option to disable comments, it's only right for me to share some of the personal experiences I encountered, which form the basis of why I believe this would be a very good option for sellers:

          My first experience came in the form of an email I received from someone who had not purchased my product. Their email basically stated the following:

          "I would like to receive a copy of your WSO but I do not have the funds available. It will cost you nothing to send me your WSO since it is an ebook. If you do not send me a copy of your ebook I will post very negative comments about your WSO. If you have the moderators remove my post, I will keep creating more Warrior Forum usernames, using anonymous proxy IP addresses and I will keep saying negative things about your WSO until no one buys it. I'll need to receive your product by tomorrow evening. Thank you."

          The above email is an almost exact, word-for-word email that I received from someone. At the time, I was new to the Warrior Forum and, out of fear, I sent them a copy of my WSO for free. Today, I would not give in to threats like that, but I also do not have the time to deal with someone who has that amount of free time to inflict damage on my business, so I just don't sell my products here anymore, because it's not worth that kind of trouble.

          Another email I received is what caused me to shut down my WSO for good. The email was from a customer who had purchased my WSO a day earlier. It basically said the following:

          "Greetings Mark, I bought your WSO and really enjoyed it. I could see this really working. You explained everything in a clear and easy to follow manner. At this time, I'd like to request a refund though, as my funds are somewhat limited. I live in India, so your book is very expensive for me, due to the currency exchange rate. I gather you wouldn't want me to write something bad about your WSO so I'll look forward to you promptly refunding my purchase."

          These are just two of several threatening emails and messages I received from people who stated they would harm my WSO thread with negative, untrue comments, if I did not provide them with a free copy of my course, or refund their purchase, despite their stated satisfaction with the product.

          There are many more people like this on this website, who attempt to steal from honest product creators. The majority of these problems do not occur through posts, but through private, threatening emails and private messages.

          The threat of posting negative comments is used as ransom, by many dishonest people, who spend hours of their time on this forum, seeking out product creators they can threaten and steal from. There are many people like this, who steal from product creators, by privately threatening to ruin their WSOs with their untrue comments.

          Moderators have no way of knowing when negative, untrue comments are being made by someone who hasn't purchased the product. Not even the WSO sellers can tell when these comments are being made by people who were denied free access to their product.

          Giving WSO sellers the option to disable comments on their WSO threads would prevent horrible individuals like this from being able to take hostage of a WSO seller's thread. These types of situations are not rare and they're not infrequent. The anonymity that is afforded to anyone with an internet connection has made this problem all too common.

          Since a WSO seller is paying money for their WSO thread, and they are extending special pricing to Warriors, the WSO seller should have the right to determine whether or not they want to enable comments on their WSO thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Suzanne,

            I don't think the current management will get to the point where they'll immediately ban posters like that until they've seen so much of it that their stomachs turn at the sight. Given that the people making the rules don't do a lot of direct moderating, that's not likely to be any time soon.

            I would not mind being wrong on that point.

            As far as the initial question, it couldn't hurt to try it. Give people the option and see how it works. I would just suggest making it clear it was a test, and not guaranteed into the future.

            It's easy to say things like "What are they trying to hide," but situations like travlinguy mentioned have been all too common. Yes, they can be dealt with if you have a FAQ post reserved as the second post in the thread, but that's not always going to happen.

            It can also be fixed, if the seller knows the right way to report it to the mods. Sellers have traditionally been very lax about doing that, though.

            Extortion efforts like those described by BlessedandGrateful have definitely happened. They're not nearly as common as some folks would have you believe, but they're real nonetheless. And once you get hit by one of those scumbags, you can lose your taste for it quickly. They're just as much a problem as the "guru bashers."

            If people want to sell without having to deal with the actions of the illiterate or the evil, maybe it's time to give them the chance. I have my doubts, but what's it hurt to let them try?


            Paul

            Side note: Abuse of customers by sellers is at least as "common" as the extortion and serial refunding they complain about. And it often comes from the sellers who complain most loudly about the problem.

            Again, not a rampant issue, but one that's as real as the extortion charge.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Suzanne,

              I don't think the current management will get to the point where they'll immediately ban posters like that until they've seen so much of it that their stomachs turn at the sight. Given that the people making the rules don't do a lot of direct moderating, that's not likely to be any time soon.

              I would not mind being wrong on that point.

              As far as the initial question, it couldn't hurt to try it. Give people the option and see how it works. I would just suggest making it clear it was a test, and not guaranteed into the future.

              It's easy to say things like "What are they trying to hide," but situations like travlinguy mentioned have been all too common. Yes, they can be dealt with if you have a FAQ post reserved as the second post in the thread, but that's not always going to happen.

              It can also be fixed, if the seller knows the right way to report it to the mods. Sellers have traditionally been very lax about doing that, though.

              Extortion efforts like those described by BlessedandGrateful have definitely happened. They're not nearly as common as some folks would have you believe, but they're real nonetheless. And once you get hit by one of those scumbags, you can lose your taste for it quickly. They're just as much a problem as the "guru bashers."

              If people want to sell without having to deal with the actions of the illiterate or the evil, maybe it's time to give them the chance. I have my doubts, but what's it hurt to let them try?

              Paul

              Side note: Abuse of customers by sellers is at least as "common" as the extortion and serial refunding they complain about. And it often comes from the sellers who complain most loudly about the problem.

              Again, not a rampant issue, but one that's as real as the extortion charge.
              All of the above ... the guru bashers, extortion, general trolls, and the fact that current admin has a high tolerance for serial abusers in this forum ... basically being banhammer sissies, IMO ... it's all true, as well as some sellers being as abusive as customers.

              I'm just trying to visualize the WSO as a Classified Ad site rather than the interactive forum it's always been, and in fact, it makes no real difference to me in the long run. There are several good reasons that I don't want to sell on the main WSO forum, with a rampant BlackHatter presence being the main one, so it will only affect me as a customer in that section. However, I would hope that those who do want to take advantage of the pre-selling and review opportunities that a well modified listing can provide are allowed to have comments.

              I've noticed that some sellers put up with a lot and don't seem to know that they don't have to. Perhaps that should be advertised more clearly somewhere along in the WSO creation process.

              In general, as a customer, it would take a lot for me to buy from a listing with comments turned off. I don't automatically trust or distrust a "guru." The deal would have to be pretty outstanding and come with a refund guarantee, should the product be not as described, and it would most likely be in the software or graphics category rather than MMO for me to be interested.

              To be honest, I've studied successful WSOs and have really enjoyed watching a really great product explode when the real interactions with customers start rolling in. I've enjoyed watching the sellers "work the crowd" and watching the heat rise on a good WSO. It's kind of a unique thing to the Warrior Forum.

              I've also watched and studied how a bad product listing goes down in flames (deservedly so). It's also quite something to watch or study if you're considering launching really crappy products. There's no doubt in my mind that those crappy products are still going to be listed, but where will the warning be now for people considering buying it?
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Alaister,

                I Join Kay and a few others in backing this suggestion. Sellers should have the option to turn off comments.

                I think what many commenters in this thread are forgetting is the new review system. Once that is fully operational the comments are somewhat redundant (at least in regard to feedback)

                Its not an issue of the seller having something to hide. Its an issue of not everyone being able comment even those that should not be able to. Right now in my main space I would not and have not considered a WSO because a certain competitor has made it known to me by PM that he would flood it with bad reviews. He can do that because comments are free for alls that need not be from legit buyers.

                This freedom without restraints has led to other sheenanigans in multiple threads where "reviews" have been left from cronies and people who basically JV their comments.Wide open comments as reviews allows even a bad offer to get multiple positive "reviews" from people with accounts just for that purpose.

                In the end if you intend on going forward with ratings through a review system the best way to facilitate full participation in it will be to close off comments anyway and send the reviewers to the rating system. We have an entire forum just for the discussion of products and services and the discussions there tend to be much more focused and reasonable than some of the things that break out in WSO threads

                As such, accountability or hiding, has nothing to do with it since the review and rating system will cover that only this time - only from legit buyers - and in depth reviews can continue in the review forum..
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          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            Oh boo hoo! Really! Come on Mark using being new as an excuse to cave to unethical behavior? Seriously?

            I've been threatened before and I straightly told them to piss off.

            Here's how I see it from a buyers perspective in regards to a seller disabling my ability to leave a comment to ask a question about a product...

            Only interested in getting my money and not interested in any level of engagement about their own product.. in other words SELFISH!


            Look guys, this isn't JUST about allowing vendors to disable comments it's FAR more then that and here's why.

            Is this the only forum you visit that's in the same space? It isn't for me and I can tell you with certainty that the general perception elsewhere on the net is that this forum has a long standing habit of "PROTECTING" bad sellers.

            That's the PERCEPTION, not necessarily the truth but as we all know the buyers perception is their reality.

            We'd all be naive to think that this is the only forum buyers go to as well so I'm sure they are acutely aware of the general perception as well and may even hold that same perceptions.

            Letting sellers disable comments will only serve to perpetuate this negative untruthful perception which WILL result in further traffic loss and failed WSO's.

            Granted not all sellers will chose to go the route of disabling comments however it will spread across our space as a negative thing from a buyers perspective.

            @Travlingguy,

            Come on man really? You shut down your WSO because some people posted that they didn't get delivery of the product?

            I think I found the WSO your referring to and dude all I can say is WOW! If one is gonna be in business one had better have think skin!

            Those kinds of issues come up man and there's nothing you can do to prevent it, end of story. It comes with the territory man.

            Your post that is the response to people posting that they didn't get the download link comes across as patronizing!

            I think that's the REAL reason people who came to the thread and didn't buy. The saw your response and probably thought to themselves, hmm this guy is a dick.

            I notice that 9 DAYS before the last post on your WSO some one posted that they had the following when trying to access their purchase:

            "Not Found

            The requested URL was not found on this server.
            Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request."

            You never bothered to even acknowledge that poster with a reply, and because of the Not Found post I'm inclined to believe that it in the end there was some issue with your server. Hey it happens and there's nothing you can do to prevent it but instead of saying something your solution was to just close the WSO?

            You said earlier in this thread,
            These complaints killed the offer (people came to the thread looking to buy and didn't because of the comments) and I was eventually forced to take a successful WSO
            No one forced you to shut down your WSO! I thin theirs another reason you shut down the WSO but I won't comment on it here because it would come across as disparaging!

            I have to be frank, your comments about your WSO is a lame ass excuse for siding with the lets disable comments on WSO threads idea.

            This is a perfect example of WHY sellers should not be able to disable comments on their WSO's!



            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            Earlier, I stated the reasons why I believe it would be a good idea to give sellers the option to disable comments on their paid WSO threads. I did not, however, share my past, personal experience when I was selling a WSO several years ago.

            Since I have emphatically stated that I believe it's a very good idea to give sellers the option to disable comments, it's only right for me to share some of the personal experiences I encountered, which form the basis of why I believe this would be a very good option for sellers:

            My first experience came in the form of an email I received from someone who had not purchased my product. Their email basically stated the following:

            "I would like to receive a copy of your WSO but I do not have the funds available. It will cost you nothing to send me your WSO since it is an ebook. If you do not send me a copy of your ebook I will post very negative comments about your WSO. If you have the moderators remove my post, I will keep creating more Warrior Forum usernames, using anonymous proxy IP addresses and I will keep saying negative things about your WSO until no one buys it. I'll need to receive your product by tomorrow evening. Thank you."

            The above email is an almost exact, word-for-word email that I received from someone. At the time, I was new to the Warrior Forum and, out of fear, I sent them a copy of my WSO for free. Today, I would not give in to threats like that, but I also do not have the time to deal with someone who has that amount of free time to inflict damage on my business, so I just don't sell my products here anymore, because it's not worth that kind of trouble.

            Another email I received is what caused me to shut down my WSO for good. The email was from a customer who had purchased my WSO a day earlier. It basically said the following:

            "Greetings Mark, I bought your WSO and really enjoyed it. I could see this really working. You explained everything in a clear and easy to follow manner. At this time, I'd like to request a refund though, as my funds are somewhat limited. I live in India, so your book is very expensive for me, due to the currency exchange rate. I gather you wouldn't want me to write something bad about your WSO so I'll look forward to you promptly refunding my purchase."

            These are just two of several threatening emails and messages I received from people who stated they would harm my WSO thread with negative, untrue comments, if I did not provide them with a free copy of my course, or refund their purchase, despite their stated satisfaction with the product.

            There are many more people like this on this website, who attempt to steal from honest product creators. The majority of these problems do not occur through posts, but through private, threatening emails and private messages.

            The threat of posting negative comments is used as ransom, by many dishonest people, who spend hours of their time on this forum, seeking out product creators they can threaten and steal from. There are many people like this, who steal from product creators, by privately threatening to ruin their WSOs with their untrue comments.

            Moderators have no way of knowing when negative, untrue comments are being made by someone who hasn't purchased the product. Not even the WSO sellers can tell when these comments are being made by people who were denied free access to their product.

            Giving WSO sellers the option to disable comments on their WSO threads would prevent horrible individuals like this from being able to take hostage of a WSO seller's thread. These types of situations are not rare and they're not infrequent. The anonymity that is afforded to anyone with an internet connection has made this problem all too common.

            Since a WSO seller is paying money for their WSO thread, and they are extending special pricing to Warriors, the WSO seller should have the right to determine whether or not they want to enable comments on their WSO thread.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

              Only interested in getting my money and not interested in any level of engagement about their own product.. in other words SELFISH!
              Thats an over the top generalizations Rus. Are sales pages on the internet all SELFISH because they don't have comments? In fact some of the least selfish operations have existing helpdesk systems better streamlined to provide sales support. How many of us would write or pay to have written great copy on our sales page only to have it shot to hell by some teenager on the internet whos playng games. People who do big launches want some control over that kind of thing - it doesn't translate to selfish or hiding anything in many cases. Perhaps some but not all.

              Its not an either or proposition. I would think that any good marketer would have means of contacting them for questions stipulated in their sales copy
              (if they choose to turn of comments.).
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              • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
                Mike, you realize I respect you or at least I hope you do. haha

                My comment is based on my own perception which I disclaimed in the previous sentence.

                and...

                Its only in regards to selling on this venue, nowhere else.

                Your right it may not translate into being selfish or hiding anything in many cases but I'm talking about perceptions here not necessarily realities.

                Its not an either or proposition. I would think that any good marketer would have means of contacting them for questions stipulated in their sales copy
                (if they choose to turn of comments.).
                That's sort of already required by the rules, support desk or email contact right?

                Look I see both sides of the argument but I have the belief that if a seller is doing it all right and has a good product buyers see through the trolls and snarky comments.

                As a matter of FACT I know a seller right know whom I've partnered with before who has a current WSO had a confused customer asking for a refund and posted on his WSO that he reported the sellers site to the FTC, ( true or not) and raised a PP dispute, bla bla bla.

                One would think it would hurt his sales right?

                Guess what happened?

                My friends sales INCREASED right after that! LOL


                Honestly we should give buyers more credit around here. I think most are fully capable of seeing through the snark's, trolls, and shills.

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Thats an over the top generalizations Rus. Are sales pages on the internet all SELFISH because they don't have comments? In fact some of the least selfish operations have existing helpdesk systems better streamlined to provide sales support. How many of us would write or pay to have written great copy on our sales page only to have it shot to hell by some teenager on the internet whos playng games. People who do big launches want some control over that kind of thing - it doesn't translate to selfish or hiding anything in many cases. Perhaps some but not all.

                Its not an either or proposition. I would think that any good marketer would have means of contacting them for questions stipulated in their sales copy
                (if they choose to turn of comments.).
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

                  Mike, you realize I respect you or at least I hope you do. haha
                  .
                  Same here ..Just discussing
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

                  That's sort of already required by the rules, support desk or email contact right?
                  That is already required by the rules that off forum contact info or support desk be provided.

                  I also question the usefulness of the feedback system on those listings, and only those listings that use Warrior Payments, which isn't all of the listings by a long shot.

                  I've opened several listings that use War Pay and guess what? Nowhere is there any indication from the listing view or the seller profile view of feedback on those listings. It should be visible right on the listing but the only way I've been able to check out the feedback is to to to the front page, click on sell my product or service, and then click on Marketplace and then find the WSO somewhere in there, and then click on the profile of the seller from there. Rather convoluted I'd say and few buyers are going to do that.
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            • Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

              Oh boo hoo! Really! Come on Mark using being new as an excuse to cave to unethical behavior? Seriously?

              I've been threatened before and I straightly told them to piss off.
              You missed the whole point of what I said Rus. I just don't have the time to deal with those types of clowns anymore. There are plenty of other places where I can sell my products without having to deal with that circus. I'm not going to waste my time being threatened by people who are trying to get a $7-$27 product without paying for it. From a business perspective, it's not a good use of my time.

              Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

              Here's how I see it from a buyers perspective in regards to a seller disabling my ability to leave a comment to ask a question about a product...

              Only interested in getting my money and not interested in any level of engagement about their own product.. in other words SELFISH!
              Here's how I see your comment above, where you think a seller is obligated to "engage" with you, and hundreds of other people, about their product on an unlimited basis....ENTITLED!

              A seller has ONE obligation to you: To provide you with the product they are describing in their sales letter. Period. This sense of entitlement , where prospective buyers and tire kickers believe they have the right to unlimited "engagement" with product sellers is one of the main reasons why this website has quickly gone downhill. Case in point: Do you think a guy like Ryan Deiss or Jeff Walker is going to sit on this forum for hours and "engage" with you, and all of the other curiosity seekers, about their product, before you buy it or even after you buy it for that matter? LOL. It will never happen and that's why most guys like Ryan and Jeff, who produce high quality products, can't afford to offer their products in the WSO section.

              Also in reply to one of your other posts here where you said that most people can see through negative posts, that's a laugh. Sure, if a post is so over the top and ridiculous most people will ignore it. Most troll's posts are not that over the top though. Your implication that negative troll posts don't hurt a WSO is purely false. Sure, your story about "a guy you know" whose WSO did even better after a negative post can happen, if a post is so ridiculous, but most troll's posts are not that extreme. Most troll's posts are singularly aimed at being worded in a way to hurt the WSO seller, and in most cases that's exactly what they succeed in doing.

              The WSO seller is the one paying for the WSO thread so they should get to decide whether or not they're able to spend hundreds of hours of their personal time answering questions. Buyers can then decide if they want to buy the product or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    I say do not allow the disabling of comments. If the seller does not want comments then he or she can create a sales page off-forum. The feedback on the sales thread is what makes the forum sales threads unique.

    If comments are being left that are not allowed then report them for deletion. I agree with some of the others, if comments are turned off I simply won't purchase that product or service on the forum. If I want to purchase products without the ability to have pre-sale questions answered publicly, or without public buyer feedback, then I will buy well known brands and from well known sellers off of the forum.

    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

      The feedback on the sales thread is what makes the forum sales threads unique....
      Cheers

      -don
      It is a unique element of a WSO and for many buyers, it is the one thing that fuels many sales. If they monitor their threads and weed out the argumentative, snarky comments or opinions from non-buyers by reporting those posts that are not either pre-sell questions or buyer reviews, and if their product holds up, the comments are often a plus for sales.

      I've seen plenty of WSOs become a train wreck with legitimate buyer reviews and they deserved that feedback and it helped to alert others not to buy.

      People who don't want to address support problems like people not getting their links should state that all support comments go to the help desk and enforce it, but make certain that you are responding to those concerns at the help desk.
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    • I'm in favor of giving sellers the option to disable comments for the following reasons:

      1.) People who actually do what they teach don't have time to reply to hundreds of posts and hundreds of questions. The majority of WSO's being sold are by newbies who have time to answer each individual post and repetitive questions about their $7-$27 product. People who do what they teach do not have time to answer hundreds of posts and hundreds of questions about their $7-$27 product.

      2.) Experienced product sellers are already selling their products on their own websites. Giving them the option to offer their products, at a special price on the Warrior Forum, without costing them hundreds of hours of their time, will give Warriors more purchasing options and allow them to purchase products they previously couldn't afford at the seller's regular website price.

      3.) In reply to people who are saying they wouldn't buy a WSO if they couldn't read others' comments, it's simple: Just don't buy that product if you don't want to. You're entitled to having your own personal criteria, for what you need to make a purchasing decision. Product creators should also be entitled to decide whether or not they want to spend hours of their time answering hundreds of inane and repetitive posts and questions. Just as you have the option to buy or not buy a product that meets your personal criteria, product sellers should also have the option to make a special offer to Warriors, without that automatically meaning that they have to commit unreasonable amounts of time, answering hundreds of posts and comments. Again, keep in mind that people who actually do what they teach do not have the time to invest hundreds of hours, answering Warrior Forum posts. This time issue is the primary reason why most WSO's are being sold by newbies, who do have the time to spend hundreds of hours answering questions about their $7-$27 products. The current quality, of most WSO's being sold, conclusively proves this point.

      4.) In reply to people saying that product sellers can just report inappropriate posts, it doesn't work that way at all. Not by a long shot. Moderators don't automatically remove posts that may be inappropriate. People currently have the option to make completely anonymous posts, claiming that they purchased a WSO, and make negative remarks about the product. There's no way to verify whether someone has or has not purchased a product, just because they claim they have. The success of the few high quality WSOs that are left gets destroyed anytime an anonymous poster decides they're bored and that they'd like to ruin someone's WSO. The notion that inappropriate comments can be removed is not valid, because there's no way to verify whether someone is being truthful or not when they make a post. Moderators can only do so much and they can only remove posts that blatantly break the rules.

      5.) You'd still have the option to send private messages to product sellers. If they reply to your questions and you're satisfied with their answers, you can decide whether or not to buy their product. If they don't reply, you don't like their answer, or you decide not to buy because they don't have time to answer your private message, you still have the option of whether or not to buy their product.

      6.) The last reason I'm in favor of this option comes down to simple economics. Currently, if a product creator decides to make a special offer in the WSO section, they have to account for the massive amount of time it will take them to reply to hundreds of posts and questions. The pricing of their WSO must take this enormous time factor into consideration. Product creators have to price their WSO's to make it worth many hours of their time, while also factoring in the $20 cost of bumping their WSO. Experienced product creators, who do what they teach, could not possibly afford to sell a WSO for $7-$27, in the current set up, because it would require hours and hours of their time. No one who actually does what they teach can afford to spend hours of their time answering questions about a $7-$27 product. On the other hand, if product creators, whose time is truly at a premium, did not have to invest hours of their time answering questions of curious Warriors, they would be in a much better position to offer their products at special prices. This would result in better prices on WSO's and higher quality WSO's, since the time consuming process of answering posts wouldn't have to be factored into a WSO's price. Also, since product sellers, who are busy doing what they teach, would now be in a position to offer their products, without taking time away from their actual businesses, we'd start to see more high quality products return to the WSO section.

      Anyone who has witnessed the decline in the product quality of WSO's, and the mass exodus of high quality product sellers over the years, knows that this would be a very good option to give product sellers.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

        I'm in favor of giving sellers the option to disable comments for the following reasons:

        People who do what they teach do not have time to answer hundreds of posts and hundreds of questions about their $7-$27 product.
        Right ... Big Dogs shouldn't have accountability because they don't have the time.... and since when do "Big Dogs" sell products for $7-$27? Not that I've seen. Big Dogs sell their products in roughly the $2K range.
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        • People who truly do what they teach do not have the option to spend hours of their time answering posts and questions. On the other hand, people who teach theory, who do not actually do what they teach, have the luxury of spending hours and hours of their time on the Warrior Forum, answering hundreds of posts and questions.

          If you wouldn't purchase a product because there aren't comments on the WSO thread, just don't buy the product, in the same way that you can choose to not buy a product when someone sells it from a regular website.

          Nobody sells $2K products on the Warrior Forum, because Warriors are accustomed to buying $7-$27 products.

          Just because someone wants to give Warriors a special price on their product, that shouldn't automatically mean that they also have to take hours away from their real businesses, to answer questions and posts. Product sellers should have the option of how they invest their time, just as you have the option to choose whether or not to buy their product. Currently, when someone sells a WSO, hundreds of hours of their time gets taken by people asking hundreds of repetitive questions. Just because someone decides to extend a special price on their product, that shouldn't automatically entitle others to consume hours of that person's time.

          You're essentially saying that since someone has decided to offer their product at a special price that they automatically owe everyone unlimited amounts of their time. I don't think you understand the fact that people who do what they teach literally do not have endless amounts of time to give away. It's not an issue of accountability, it's an issue of time being at a premium, for people who do what they teach.

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Right ... Big Dogs shouldn't have accountability because they don't have the time.... and since when do "Big Dogs" sell products for $7-$27? Not that I've seen. Big Dogs sell their products in roughly the $2K range.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            People who truly do what they teach do not have the option to spend hours of their time answering posts and questions. On the other hand, people who teach theory, who do not actually do what they teach, have the luxury of spending hours and hours of their time on the Warrior Forum, answering hundreds of posts and questions.
            If they're too busy to make money from the WF, they should get into a less time consuming business or take some of those bucks for customer service staff to answer questions.

            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            Nobody sells $2K products on the Warrior Forum, because Warriors are accustomed to buying $7-$27 products.
            Try buying Igor's coaching for $27. There are and have been many products/services over $1K on the WF. Just because you haven't seen them or don't acknowledge that, doesn't make it so.

            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            Just because someone wants to give Warriors a special price on their product, that shouldn't automatically mean that they also have to take hours away from their real businesses, to answer questions and posts. They should have the option of how they invest their time, just like you have the option to choose whether or not buy their product.
            They have the option of not doing anything that requires too much of their time. The buyers here should have a right to ask pre-sell questions and to post honest reviews of the products they purchase whether the seller feels that answering questions is beneath him or not.

            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            You're essentially saying that since someone has decided to offer their product at a special price that they automatically owe everyone unlimited amounts of their time. I don't think you understand the fact that people who do what they teach literally do not have endless amounts of time to give away. It's not an issue of accountability, it's an issue of time being at a premium, for people who do what they teach.
            They're either making bank or not. They're not "giving away" anything. You distinguish them as people who do what they teach. Maybe ... maybe they're just people selling stuff just like everyone else. In either case, pre-sell questions are just part of good customer service and if they're too cheap to hire customer service staff to take care of those bothersome potential customers, they should just go someplace else. You apparently think they're a lot more special than I do.
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      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
        Banned
        Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

        You're essentially saying that since someone has decided to offer their product at a special price that they automatically owe everyone unlimited amounts of their time. I don't think you understand the fact that people who do what they teach literally do not have endless amounts of time to give away. It's not an issue of accountability, it's an issue of time being at a premium, for people who do what they teach.
        This place is called a forum for a reason.

        Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

        1.) People who actually do what they teach don't have time to reply to hundreds of posts and hundreds of questions.
        That's BS.

        Easy solution --> hire someone or have someone on staff answer the questions. If the vendor does not want to answer questions or receive feedback then simply don't post a forum thread.

        Cheers

        -don
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        • Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

          This place is called a forum for a reason.
          It's called a "Warrior Special Offer" so that product creators have the ability to extend special pricing to Warriors. Just because someone is offering a special price on their product, that shouldn't also mean that they should be required to invest hundreds of hours of their time answering questions.

          Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post


          Easy solution --> hire someone or have someone on staff answer the questions.
          Haha, sure just hire someone to answer Warrior Forum questions all day, because that's free, right? lol
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            It's called a "Warrior Special Offer" so that product creators have the ability to extend special pricing to Warriors. Just because someone is offering a special price on their product, they should not also be required to invest hundreds of hours of their time answering questions.
            Again, it's called an internet forum for a reason. If you don't want to an answer pre-sale questions or receive review feedback then don't post your offer on a thread here.

            Haha, sure just hire someone to answer Warrior Forum questions all day, because that's free, right? lol
            If you are a big dog that is making real money then paying someone to facilitate more sales should be a priority. In-fact it's possible that you already do have, or should have, someone on staff that can handle the duties. More sales, more dollars.

            You sure have a strong opinion on this subject for a noob with a couple of posts...what's your real Warrior Forum username?

            Cheers

            -don
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            • Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              Again, it's called an internet forum for a reason. If you don't want to an answer pre-sale questions or receive review feedback then don't post your offer here.
              If you don't want to buy a product that doesn't have comments and posts, don't buy it. How do you make purchasing decisions when you go to a regular website that doesn't have user comments on it? If someone is currently selling their products on a regular website and they just add it to the WSO section and disable comments, what would the difference be to you? Their product isn't in the WSO section to begin with. So if they add their product to the WSO section at a special price, without having comments turned on, versus just continuing to sell their product from their website it's the same thing. You don't have the ability to post comments either way, so it makes no difference whether they keep selling their product from their own website or from their own website plus at a special price for Warriors. The only thing that would change is that Warriors would get more special offers on products being sold at higher prices.

              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post


              If you are a big dog that is making real money then paying for someone to facilitate more sales should be a priority.
              I sell my own products on my own websites but I'd never entrust someone to deal with the types of inappropriate questions and posts that some people post here. I wouldn't wish a job like that on my worst enemy. lol

              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              You sure have a strong opinion on this for a noob with a couple of posts...what's your REAL Warrior Forum username?
              A noob I'm not. I'm just a guy who does what he teaches and teaches what he does. I left this site years ago because of the decline in product quality and because of all of the good product sellers leaving too. I spend 7-8 hours a day on my internet businesses. As much as I'd enjoy sharing what I do with others and offering it at a special price to Warriors, through a WSO, I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to the types of comments I see on other WSO threads. This suggestion thread struck a personal chord with me, though, because it's the primary reason why I don't teach what I do through WSO's.
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              • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                Banned
                Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                If you don't want to buy a product that doesn't have comments and posts, don't buy it. How do you make purchasing decisions when you go to a regular website that doesn't have user comments on it?
                Easy, I email the company or contact them through support. According to you, real sellers don't have time to answer questions though. That's a laugh...

                If someone is currently selling their products on a regular website and they just add it to the WSO section and disable comments, what would the difference be to you?
                I prefer to see this forum remain a forum and that includes the forum sales threads.

                Their product isn't in the WSO section to begin with. So if they add their product to the WSO section at a special price, without having comments turned on, versus just continuing to sell their product from their website it's the same thing.
                Run a banner ad if you don't like the rules.

                You don't have the ability to post comments either way, so it makes no difference whether they keep selling their product from their own website or from their own website plus at a special price for Warriors. The only thing that would change is that Warriors would get more special offers on products being sold at higher prices.
                Again, this an internet forum...run a banner ad if you don't like the forum sales format.

                I sell my own products on my own websites but I'd never entrust someone to deal with the types of inappropriate questions and posts that some people post here. I wouldn't wish a job like that on my worst enemy. lol
                It's called customer (and potential customer) service, it's something that needs to be done, especially on a forum thread.


                A noob I'm not. I'm just a guy who does what he teaches and teaches what he does.
                You sound like someone that does not want to see reviews of your product, someone that does not want to take the time answer pre-sale questions, and someone that *may* not provide high quality customer support.

                I left this site years ago because of the decline in product quality and because of all of the good product sellers leaving too. I spend 7-8 hours a day on my internet businesses.
                Just no time answer pre-sale questions...got it.

                As much as I'd enjoy sharing what I do with others and offering it at a special price to Warriors, through a WSO, I don't have the time or the inclination to respond to the types of comments I see on other WSO threads.
                It comes with the territory.

                This suggestion thread struck a personal chord with me, though, because it's the primary reason why I don't teach what I do through WSO's.
                It sounds like you don't have the time or the patience for WSO section. So what is your real Warrior Forum username?

                Cheers

                -don
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                • Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                  Easy, I email the company or contact them through support. According to you, real sellers don't have time to answer questions though. That's a laugh...
                  I think you misunderstood my comments, Don. I'm all for supporting my customers through my support desk ticketing system.



                  Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                  It's called customer (and potential customer) service, it's something that needs to be done, especially on a forum thread.
                  I'm familiar with "customer service" and that's what I include with my products, through my support desk ticketing system. I'm not sure what "potential customer service" is or why you seem to think that someone, who is not a paying customer of mine, is entitled to my money/time. You do understand that time and money are the same thing, right?



                  Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                  You sound like someone that does not want to see reviews of your product, someone that does not want to take the time answer pre-sale questions, and someone that *may* not provide high quality customer support.
                  Haha, yes and comments like that are precisely why I don't sell WSOs. "You sound like someone that *may* not provide high quality customer support." LOL, presumptuous comments like that are exactly why I don't spend my time here anymore.



                  Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                  It sounds like you don't have the time or the patience for WSO section. So what is your real Warrior Forum username?
                  Again, I haven't been an active member here in years Don. BlessedandGrateful is my Warrior Forum username. I didn't comment here to promote any of my products. I just came to share my opinion.

                  I respect you and the fact that you and I have different opinions on this matter. I've said how I feel and I've read your posts and I respect and understand how you feel. That said, I don't have the time to keep going back and forth, because we're both just basically repeating ourselves. Back to business for me. I won't be back to comment here, not because I'm ignoring your comments or replies, but just because I really don't have the time to keep discussing this. I have 37 Facebook ads running right now and a bunch of customers who need my time. All the best!!!
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                  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                    I think you misunderstood my comments, Don. I'm all for supporting my customers through my support desk ticketing system.
                    No, I did not misunderstand you as you said you do not have time to answer pre-sale questions.

                    Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                    People who truly do what they teach do not have the option to spend hours of their time answering posts and questions.
                    See, you said it yourself --> no time to answer posts and questions.

                    I'm familiar with "customer service" and that's what I include with my products, through my support desk ticketing system.
                    As do I, and as do hundreds, if not thousands, of vendors on WF.

                    I'm not sure what "potential customer service" is or why you seem to think that someone, who is not a paying customer of mine, is entitled to my money/time.
                    Obviously you don't. A potential customer is someone that is almost ready to purchase, but they may need a question or two answered regarding licensing, ToS, compatibility etc.

                    You do understand that time and money are the same thing, right?
                    Do you understand business at all? I purchased my first "sales" dot com in 1996 and I have been selling online full-time for the past 13 years. At one point I owned and operated 200 websites, and currently I own roughly 100 and some of my best time spent is answering pre-sale questions --> and answering pre-sale questions has directly led to countless thousands in sales. Prior to my online time time I was a retail store manager, and teaching my staff to be the best in town at answering pre-sale questions directly led to millions of dollars in sales at my stores.

                    Haha, yes and comments like that are precisely why I don't sell WSOs. "You sound like someone that *may* not provide high quality customer support." LOL, presumptuous comments like that are exactly why I don't spend my time here anymore.
                    You are not providing the highest quality support services if you are not responding to pre-sale (and other) questions.

                    Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                    People who truly do what they teach do not have the option to spend hours of their time answering posts and questions.
                    IMO pre-sale questions are a part of customer support duties. But like you said, you don't know what support for a "potential customer" is. You went on to basically say if someone has not yet paid you they don't deserve your time.

                    Again, I haven't been an active member here in years Don. BlessedandGrateful is my Warrior Forum username.
                    So what is your inactive Warrrior Forum username?

                    I didn't comment here to promote any of my products. I just came to share my opinion.
                    A very strong "you don't have the time for this and that" opinion. We read you loud and clear.

                    I respect you and the fact that you and I have different opinions on this matter.
                    Good.

                    I've said how I feel and I've read your posts and I respect and understand how you feel. That said, I don't have the time to keep going back and forth, because we're both just basically repeating ourselves.
                    Right...and you don't have the time to answer pre-sale questions either. Got it.

                    Back to business for me. I won't be back to comment here, not because I'm ignoring your comments or replies, but just because I really don't have the time to keep discussing this.
                    Sweet, that may give you a bit more time to answer questions, including pre-sale questions.

                    I have 37 Facebook ads running right now and a bunch of customers who need my time.
                    I see you added this Facebook stuff after I had started my reply to you. Please do send me a link to some of your most popular products (and/or services) as I would like to see what you are offering.

                    Thanks

                    -don
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Suzanne,
                      If they monitor their threads
                      Sleep, eating, life's other demands... It's just not that simple. And having someone on staff to do it sounds great, until you realize how hard it is to find a person competent to answer as you would.

                      I agree that turning them off entirely is a bad idea, but we need to keep all the possible issues in mind. Not least of which is that there are cadres of scumbags who watch for those lapses mentioned above and will use them to slam someone when they're not around to respond.

                      I wouldn't buy from someone in a forum who turned off comments unless I knew them well enough, at least by reputation, to trust them anyway. That said, it needs to be remembered that 2-4% of the world's population are sociopaths and somewhere between .5 and 1% are simply malignantly evil.

                      That latter part will go after the "big dogs" nearly every time. Some smell a profit in extortion, and others think their reputations are to be made by becoming "guru killers." Some are just gratuitously destructive slime. It's been the same since the early days of this forum, and it's not going to change no matter what the management does.

                      That's the biggest reason for Rule #1.

                      Sellers need to be educated on how to report them, and the mods need to learn to differentiate between legitimate complaints and destructive idiots.


                      Paul
                      Signature
                      .
                      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Suzanne,Sleep, eating, life's other demands... It's just not that simple. And having someone on staff to do it sounds great, until you realize how hard it is to find a person competent to answer as you would.

                        I agree that turning them off entirely is a bad idea, but we need to keep all the possible issues in mind. Not least of which is that there are cadres of scumbags who watch for those lapses mentioned above and will use them to slam someone when they're not around to respond.

                        I wouldn't buy from someone in a forum who turned off comments unless I knew them well enough, at least by reputation, to trust them anyway. That said, it needs to be remembered that 2-4% of the world's population are sociopaths and somewhere between .5 and 1% are simply malignantly evil.

                        That latter part will go after the "big dogs" nearly every time. Some smell a profit in extortion, and others think their reputations are to be made by becoming "guru killers." Some are just gratuitously destructive slime. It's been the same since the early days of this forum, and it's not going to change no matter what the management does.

                        That's the biggest reason for Rule #1.

                        Sellers need to be educated on how to report them, and the mods need to learn to differentiate between legitimate complaints and destructive idiots.


                        Paul
                        I've read enough comments about the type of malevolent dialogue that some of the gurus endured here and as a result they left. We recently saw something quite similar happen to Willie Crawford, and it took a whole thread with some of us complaining about that to get that guy banned. That shouldn't be the case. There should be zero tolerance and instant ban for that kind of behavior and I don't mean a 1-3 day ban.

                        There's only two right off the top of my head that I have enough personal experience with their products that I would trust with a large payment without any reviews or pre-sell questions and one of them is you. The other is Jeff Walker.

                        I was always impressed with how quickly the mods took care of any comments in my threads ... and I don't normally have problems ... but an occasional discussion about the sales or delivery process .. that kind of thing. That should be a standard. There are enough mods here now to be trained on how to eliminate WSO thread trolls for good.

                        I really dislike the idea of no interaction in the WSO threads with customers and potential customers though. It would be a very different advertising section without it.

                        I gave Igor as an example of a high dollar seller here with pricey products and he is very active in his threads. I'm sure he's also a busy man with his solo ad business and his coaching business and who knows what else, but he does make the time to answer pre-sell questions .... and he takes zero guff in his threads. I've seen that and chuckled a bit at how he squashes trolls or just bothersome people with no hesitation whatsoever.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                          Again, it's called an internet forum for a reason. If you don't want to an answer pre-sale questions or receive review feedback then don't post your offer on a thread here.
                          I think THAT is B.S. If you don't own, Admin or moderate this forum, you don't get to tell other members what they have to do. It was a rather simple question asked by an administrator here - trying the OPTION of allowing sellers to turn off comments. If the people who own and run this forum want to try something like that - they don't need our permission.

                          It's amazing people post massive arguments against it - why? What's it to YOU? If a seller chooses to try the option of "no comments" - it doesn't affect other sellers. Whether I would buy one would depend on what the offer is - who the seller is, etc. It would be my decision to buy or not.

                          It's not a totally new concept - it's come up before. In fact, the suggestion back then was to totally disable comments and require sellers to have a q/a page or help desk to answer questions. Instead, the decision was to eliminate signatures in the WSO section - and a few members had a fit about that.
                          Signature

                          Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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                          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            I think THAT is B.S. If you don't own, Admin or moderate this forum, you don't get to tell other members what they have to do.
                            It's not BS --> As of now this internet marketing forum allows pre-sale questions and buyer feedback on threads and that's the way it is.

                            It was a rather simple question asked by an administrator here - trying the OPTION of allowing sellers to turn off comments. If the people who own and run this forum want to try something like that - they don't need our permission.
                            Alaister asked for our opinion and we are giving just that. If he wants to listen to a three post noob posting under an alias username then he has the right to do so. It was put to us as "should we allow sellers to disable comments" or "should experienced sellers be allowed to disable comments" and I say NO to both.

                            It's amazing people post massive arguments against it - why?
                            Some of us like the forum sales thread format, obviously many vendors and buyers do or they would not be selling and buying here. If WF decides to try to move away from this model I believe they will be making a mistake.

                            What's it to YOU?
                            Same as it is to you! We were asked our opinion --> and in my opinion it will harm the overall credibility of the WSO section, decrease the overall appeal of the section, and ultimately harm the forum in the long run.

                            If a seller chooses to try the option of "no comments" - it doesn't affect other sellers.
                            If a seller turns off comments it affects me. I can't ask questions on the thread and I can't read reviews on the thread. On top of that I think it may decrease the long term viability of the section.

                            Obviously the previous forum owner thought comments were the best way to go, and that is why we are not allowed to turn the comments off. I agree with that philosophy and FWIW I have purchased 100+ WSOs with buyer feedback, and I have purchased none without a decent amount of feedback.

                            I don't want to see the "flavor" of the forum substantially changed. I think commenting helped to make the WSO forum fairly unique and popular, and I think it should stay that way.

                            Whether I would buy one would depend on what the offer is - who the seller is, etc. It would be my decision to buy or not.
                            You don't have to agree with the way the forum has been working for years, but I do. Again, I want to have the ability to ask questions and read reviews on the thread.

                            It's not a totally new concept - it's come up before.
                            We still have comments and IMO that's the way it should be on all sales threads. The WSO and other sections have been very successful, and the ability to leave feedback and ask questions publicly is a big part of what has made those sales sections a success.

                            In fact, the suggestion back then was to totally disable comments and require sellers to have a q/a page or help desk to answer questions.
                            A suggestion that was not applied, thankfully.

                            Instead, the decision was to eliminate signatures in the WSO section - and a few members had a fit about that.
                            Now that was a great decision and signatures should be turned off in all paid ad sections.

                            Again, just for you Kay, I want the ability to ask questions and view feedback on the threads when I purchase from the Warrior Forum WSO section. I have made a ton of purchases here so I am figuring my opinion may count just like yours does.

                            If the admins want to disable comments then I suggest creating a new section to disable comments on and call it Ads --> with a subtitle of No Reviews, No Feedback, No Questions.

                            Cheers

                            -don
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                          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                            I think THAT is B.S. If you don't own, Admin or moderate this forum, you don't get to tell other members what they have to do. It was a rather simple question asked by an administrator here - trying the OPTION of allowing sellers to turn off comments. If the people who own and run this forum want to try something like that - they don't need our permission.
                            They apparently wanted our opinions and that's what they're getting.

                            Reviews aren't unique to the Warrior Forum by a long shot. Amazon has reviews, as does just about every single online store I can think of. Code Canyon has pre-sell questions and reviews. Woothemes has a forum for pre-sell questions. There are sites set up just to review products and services. For just about everything you want to buy online, you can find reviews to help you make a buying decision.

                            Pre-selling in particular is another way to sell people who are not yet sold on your product. The reviews that people leave are where I get my testimonials from ... real reviews as they happen. They are an additional way to sell people who are not yet convinced.

                            Without pre-sell questions and reviews, the WSO marketplace would be very flat... no more interesting and with no more accountability than the Classifieds in a newspaper. It would lose a quality that, as I mentioned before, can really ignite sales. You see a lot of WSOs really take off and get momentum as soon as a few real customers start posting their experience or thoughts. I think it would hurt sellers who have them turned off and I would instantly feel that seller couldn't stand up to scrutiny.

                            EDIT: in the following post, Blessed mentioned a couple of extortion attempts to get their product free. I would have posted them as glowing testimonials on my sales page (they obviously liked the product enough to want it for free) and then reported any dubious bad reviews. It would be a simple matter to report the dubious reviews and have admin demand a receipt for the product. In addition, bad reviews are only allowed if they non-inflammatory and not an attack on the seller. I've seen many reviews that were an attack on the seller removed. I've seen many fair reviews that were not a good review of the product stand ... because they were the honest opinion of a legitimate buyer for the product. It's not hard to tell what is trolling and what is a genuinely unhappy customer.
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            • Profile picture of the author agmccall
              I do not think that wso threads should be closed for comments, but there should be a mechanism in place to purge out the crap. I was on a wso thread once and for several pages of posts I read "PM'd you" then "PM'd you back, this went on for pages.

              Also support posts should not be in the thread.

              Just my opinion

              al
              Signature

              “To succeed, jump as quickly at opportunities as you do at conclusions.”
              – Benjamin Franklin

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  • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
    Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

    Hi everyone,
    ...Allowing sellers to list closed WSO threads, could attract more sellers with high quality products who have left the forum due to the harassment and the huge amount of time it took to handle all comments. For large sellers with a big list, they would create a WSO, email their list and then potentially get bombarded with too many comments to handle, spam and irrelevant replies....
    Ahh didums, dont the 'large sellers' like having to answer questions? is all they want is to be able to milk the WF members like cash cows every time they want some quick money?

    Dream on, selling a WSO comes with the burden of answering replies and comments, if you dont have the time then dont post an offer.

    There is a WSO I was interested in, I asked some pre sales question in the WSO thread and from the replies I new the product wasnt suitable (also the seller didnt understand anything that didnt involve wordpress) so I didnt buy.

    Imagine he had turned off comments and didnt have time to answer PM's, then imagine I bought the WSO and found out it wasnt suitable, imagine I tried to get a refund but was ignored. Looks like scammers paradise to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Alaister,

    In my opinion, this would completely undo all the good you are trying to do with cleaning up the WSO section.

    A few thoughts:

    1. Most snarky and rude comments that I have seen - those that derail WSOs, are warranted. They are along the line of "where is my refund" or "why did you say it didn't include cold calling but it in fact does". The rude comments are a result of bad, faulty, scammy WSOs for the most part. Of course, there are exceptions.

    2. Eliminating accountability eliminates customer safety especially when you take into consideration that there is a longstanding rule that comments about WSOs can't be made elsewhere in the forum (such as in the Reviews section) and rule #1.

    3. I think one of the reasons someone may be tempted to buy a WSO is because of the built-in review system. Anyone can sell whatever they want on their own site. More sales are done that way (outside the forum) than in it as it is. So the seller still has that option. I think it's generally a disservice to the customer - the one you are trying to protect with the new WSO rules.

    How you might can make it work:

    1. Eliminate all blind offers. I know the rules are just now being learned and enforced but a lot of comments are along the lines of "is it selling ebooks?", "does it have anything to do with Fiverr", etc. Some of the mods may need some training on what a blind offer is.

    2. Let the seller request deletion of normal, already handled support requests. For example this exchange could be requested to be deleted:

    "I didn't get my download."
    "Okay, sorry about that there was a temporary glitch with Aweber. It should work now."
    "Okay thanks - worked like a charm"

    Or: "I sent you a PM."
    "Got it and am responding now."

    I think refund requests and reviews should be exempted from this rule.

    This would eliminate a LOT of the clutter. Mods already have the responsibility to remove posts in certain situations - that's part of their job. So it really wouldn't take any extra training on your part except to ensure that a mod didn't delete refund requests or reviews.

    3. It's funny that people don't want support tickets clogging up their WSO thread but they love the positive reviews. Eliminate all positive reviews, including those in sales copy because the reviews would be from somewhere else.

    Most of us have the feeling that many of the reviews are fake anyway. How does it turn from 10 brightly shining reviews to scammer WSO of the day by page 2 or 3?

    4. Eliminate the rule forbidding reviews of WSOs in the review section and rule #1.

    5. Eliminate rule #1 for things that happen in the forum. As it stands now, I can blatantly say in a polite but firm way that Joe WSO seller did NOT refund my money even though he promised to in the sales copy ON the WSO thread but I can't say anything resembling name and shame elsewhere on the forum. What I mean is that if I post a scathing review of being scammed by User123455 on the WSO thread then everyone knows who it is. Why not let it happen elsewhere if you take away that right on the WSO thread?

    Some of those may be out in left field but some may work in order to have a win-win-win experience for all.

    Mark

    PS If they really are making $1,236.32 (even though they can't claim it now) with 5 minutes of work and do it all day long they can hire a support team. The fact they don't have one adds credence to the idea they aren't making squat.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    To add to my list above about how to possibly make something like this work, make a new rule that a potential buyer can't ask if there is an OTO. OTO's are designed for buyers. This would eliminate many useless posts.

    At the same time, from a consumer protection standpoint (one of the real reasons people ask this question), limit how many OTOs, downsells, etc. can be in the funnel before someone gets to the product or how they do it. For example, some have said they had to watch a long sales/OTO video without player controls before they got to the download link.

    Also eliminate "thanks, it looks great! I will dig into it this afternoon" type posts which means they haven't even looked at it and there is really no reason to say thanks. Comments like these are mistaken by newbies, I think, as reviews when they really aren't. In other words, these kinds of things should be said AFTER they have at least read the darned thing. Otherwise it's just a waste of time and bandwidth.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    You know what?

    Go ahead and allow sellers to disable comments so when a competitor that's selling something that's similar to what I'm selling disables the comments I'll be happy to rank in all the sales they miss out on.
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      You know what?

      Go ahead and allow sellers to disable comments so when a competitor that's selling something that's similar to what I'm selling disables the comments I'll be happy to rank in all the sales they miss out on.
      Yeah, I thought the exact same thing as a seller...but I don't think it will be beneficial to the long term health of the WSO section. As a buyer I am most certainly against it and the forum needs a steady flow of buyers. Unless, of course, they think they can sell threads forever to folks that ain't making many sales.

      Established vendors can live off of affiliate traffic to off-site offers, but noobs and not so established sellers do somewhat rely on organic traffic, and organic traffic that will buy is what this forum needs. Credibility is always a good thing, and quality buyer reviews, and solid answers to pre-sale questions do help with credibility. Do I think allowing vendors to disable comments in the WSO section will lure a bunch of the "big dogs" and their traffic back to WF? I don't think so.

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I'm for giving sellers the option to disallow comments. The sellers are the Warrior Forum customers and are paying $20 for a post and $20 more for each bump. Any features they may want is what should matter most.

    While not having comments would eliminate negative comments and reviews, it would also eliminate bogus good comments and reviews. One the most common WSO ploys is to give away products to get lots of reviews, so comments do work both ways.

    If you're a potential customer of a WSO that doesn't have comments and you don't like that, don't buy the product. But it should be up to the person paying $20 if they want comments or not.

    Having said this, personally I would always choose to post comments on my WSOs, as I think it's more beneficial than not. But giving sellers more choices is good, since they are the people actually paying for the WSO thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Yeah finding the reviews for a user is not user friendly at all! The quickest way that I know of to see their product reviews is from the earn as an affiliate link, then mouse over any product there selling and when the users profile name appears, click on that.

    Still very user unfriendly for prospective buyers so it's really not a benefit to seller as it is now.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      ... so it's really not a benefit to seller as it is now.
      Nor to the buyer who should be able to factor those in before making a buying decision.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    If a "disable comments" option is enabled for sellers then we should be allowed to discuss those offers in the review section --> that's a no-brainer rule change that should be enacted at the exact same time the disabling comments feature is implemented (if implemented).

    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I disagree - if the admins want to try an experiment they don't have to add something to balance it for those who object.

      If people can start threads in Reviews about WSOs - that would totally defeat the purpose of this option....but that's the point, right?

      If members don't like no-comment WSOs they won't buy them. If they don't buy them, sellers will stop using them. It will work or it won't but there is no harm in testing it.

      kay
      Signature

      Saving one dog may not change the world - but forever changes the world of one dog.

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      • Profile picture of the author Alaister
        Thank you everyone for your thoughts. It's great to hear an open discussion around this.

        I have gone through all of your points and dived into the real benefits and problems. The main benefits and advantages include:
        • Buyers are able to publicly clarify and ask questions about the WSO
        • The answers that the sellers reply with are made public and can help with other buyers
        • Buyers are able to leave honest reviews which can help others make a more informed decision as to whether they would like to purchase or not.

        The main problems include:
        • People who haven't purchased the product leaving negative reviews with the purpose of hurting sales for whatever reason (Potentially holding the seller ransom to receive a free product)
        • Rude replies
        • The huge time investment needed from sellers to manage all of the replies
        • Someone purchasing a product, seeking a refund and leaving a bad review if the refund is not given


        I've tried to think about what can be done that preserves the benefits and solves or minimizes the problems.

        Here is an idea:

        For products that are sold in the forum using Warrior Payments, we only allow comments and replies from people asking questions or seeking clarification on the product.

        All reviews posted as replies in the thread, whether negative or positive will be removed if reported by the seller. We will also include all the reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments in the thread. (This is the only way we can confirm a review is coming from someone who has actually purchased the product)


        This solution addresses all the problems and preserves the benefits:
        • People can still have a conversation with the seller where they ask questions about the product or seek further clarification
        • The answers are all public which helps other potential buyers
        • Buyers can still leave honest reviews, whether negative or positive via Warrior Payments. We'll look to add these reviews to the thread so it can be easily seen by everyone.
        • People who have not purchased the product will not be able to leave a review
        • Rude replies will be removed if reported.
        • The investment of time handling support still exists. If a seller is not happy to invest the time in support, then they shouldn't be selling.
        • Sellers can report messages from buyers threatening to leave bad reviews if a refund is not provided. This is unacceptable and we will take appropriate action against people who do this.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            So you asked about testing an option - and then abandoned the idea without trying it?
            The way I see it, Alaister had asked the community what we thought about the idea.

            Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

            I wanted to open up the conversation and see what the community thinks in regards to this.
            He never said for sure that he was going to test anything. Again, he wanted some opinion from the community on what we thought --> and his idea in post #54 seems fairly sound to me. The only potential snag I see is one that people have addressed before, which is buyers leaving reviews on the WP system before they have actually tried the product (I did not get my download link type stuff). But that's life in the sales business --> you can try your best, but it's sometimes difficult to please all of the people, all of the time. Not all buyers are great followers of directions...so no matter how large you make the download button, a few may miss it. The same thing can happen on non-WP threads, as many of us know, and as travlinguy has pointed out.

            I have not yet used the WP system so I don't know if some sort of delay can be (or is) incorporporated into the system to make sure the buyer has time to actually look at the product before he leaves an "honest" review.

            Cheers

            -don
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        • Profile picture of the author Anthony La Rocca
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Anthony La Rocca View Post

            I think this is a great idea...however,

            If someone posts a negative review on Warrior Payments -- will it still appear if they received a refund?
            The review should remain on the thread, sure some may try to scam the system, but people try to scam all systems. If a product is poor then the review should stay on the thread, or a buyer post saying -->refunded<-- should be put in it's place at the very least.

            To ban reviews from people that have refunded is not the ethical way to go.

            And also -- when one does NOT post comments and replies asking questions or seeking clarification on the product (either trolling or a review) having the ability to block them from posting on our thread all together would be great.
            This is almost the same as not allowing comments, I think the mods can learn to figure out if the questions are badgering or have become nuisance questions. He has already proposed deleting non-authorized and rude reviews.

            As in if we block a certain user from purchasing from us (for example a serial refunder) they should ALSO be blocked from posting on our thread. Or else they could ask endless questions / clarifications with zero intention of actually buying.
            How many serial refunders have you had through Warrior Payments? I am thinking those people could be dealt with by the admins on a case by case basis.

            SOME type of control just beyond reporting posts really needs to happen here.
            He has proposed a massive new control for WP listings, he would not allow reviews to be posted directly to the thread which eliminates non-buyer reviews. That's huge.

            For us WSO sellers that have a real proven product that consistently makes sales on a daily basis, I have PROVEN metrics to confirm troll posts (even 1) bring sales to a halt.
            Who are you (and how are you) to determine a troll from a cautious buyer? This comes with the territory of posting sales threads to a forum. I just purchased a Bowflex from Amazon, and even though it had a few terrible reviews, I still made the purchase. If someone has a pattern of trolling then report them to the admins to be dealt with.This they could crack down on, especially if it's a proven pattern.

            I figure its because one reads thru all the comments...heads to the most recent ones and see's trolling going on and they are turned off from the buying experience and leave.
            I think many buyers take the good with the bad and weigh it all accordingly. If I see all positive and glowing comments --> the first thing that comes to my mind is the vendor had his army of affiliates and friends hit the thread...and I scroll to the last posts on the thread and work my way backwards.

            I am not saying disable comments all together, but if we are selling thru Warrior Payments -- maybey like in Freelancer where one takes diff exams ect... we go thru a Mod style set of exams, pay for certification, and have certain level of control to our thread that we pay for -- while following the rules to only remove unqualified posts.
            Now that would be an interesting option, as long as it's not abused by everyone that pays to disable comments. That system could easily be abused by bad vendors with a brain so I don't know if accomplishes much in the end.

            And best of all this will save the mod team from dealing with pesky time wasting issues -- that us WSO sellers have a firm grasp on.
            This is a forum that brings in a substantial amount of revenue so I expect a good amount of moderation to be done. It's what we are paying for along with our threads.

            Instead, I'd love more for the mods to spend time reviewing the actual products being sold, and along with payment claims from Warrior Payments, have a 'approved' or 'verified' stamp for the really good WSO's to help buyers from getting scammed on the crappy WSO's out there trying to take advantage of this community.
            How the heck are a few mods going to have the time to become experts in hundreds of different areas and systems? That ain't gonna happen with a small, fresh team of mods and $20 threads. How are they going to review SEO, traffic, and other systems that may take months to achieve results? How are they going to review systems that need further investments? How are they going to implement systems that require fan page followings, teespring campaigns, and established blogs etc.?

            The mods are never going to have the time to become experts in all areas of marketing, and they will never have the time to test and grade all of the offers. That ain't going to happen with the pace of this forum. Raise the price of threads to slow the vendor traffic way, way, down and it still ain't gonna happen. They would need to hire a small army experts and pay them accordingly.

            *HECK* I'd even pay to have the WarriorForum Payments team review my product with a grading system of some kind and then 'approve' it that way. Would make for a great additional revenue stream for the forum, and would show that the seller cares about investing in their product to be advertised here.
            Where is the forum getting these review experts from? Hiring us? They would need a massive team of skilled marketing, SEO, social media, web development, advertising and graphics professionals on top of the mods.

            Scammers looking for a quick buck won't bother to do this -- especially if its priced correctly 3 - 4 figure one time fee.
            It's going to take a huge fee collected from probably thousands of us to even think about having so-called expert reviews done in all areas of internet marketing, advertising, seo, graphic design, etc. etc.

            At the end of the day I feel there are way more trolling issues going on then sellers who would abuse this process and would totally love to see the forum moving in that direction, as we pay good money to continue to advertise our products to buyers who are seeking results.
            It will be MUCH easier to crack down on trolls than it is to implement the kind of systems you are proposing. This forum just ain't going to be able to do anything like what you propose with any degree of accuracy for a very long time.

            Cheers

            -don
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        • Alaister,

          Thanks for reading everyone's thoughts and opinions on this topic.

          If you won't be giving sellers the option to disable comments on their WSO's that they pay for, would you consider creating a new sub-forum on the Warrior Forum, separate from the WSO section, where product creators could just sell/list their products without it being open to comments? I don't see why creating an area like this would be objectionable, because it would just be a completely separate area of the Warrior Forum, which would require zero moderation and produce additional revenue for the Warrior Forum. Product creators would of course still pay to bump their products in this section and it wouldn't change the current commenting style of the WSO section.

          I can't imagine why anyone would have an objection to this idea of creating a separate sub-forum of the Warrior Forum, that would be separate from the WSO section, where product creators could pay to list their products, but where commenting could be disabled.

          This would leave the WSO section unchanged, create more revenue for the Warrior Forum, and require zero moderation. To me this idea has zero downside.

          Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

          Thank you everyone for your thoughts. It's great to hear an open discussion around this.

          I have gone through all of your points and dived into the real benefits and problems. The main benefits and advantages include:
          • Buyers are able to publicly clarify and ask questions about the WSO
          • The answers that the sellers reply with are made public and can help with other buyers
          • Buyers are able to leave honest reviews which can help others make a more informed decision as to whether they would like to purchase or not.

          The main problems include:
          • People who haven't purchased the product leaving negative reviews with the purpose of hurting sales for whatever reason (Potentially holding the seller ransom to receive a free product)
          • Rude replies
          • The huge time investment needed from sellers to manage all of the replies
          • Someone purchasing a product, seeking a refund and leaving a bad review if the refund is not given


          I've tried to think about what can be done that preserves the benefits and solves or minimizes the problems.

          Here is an idea:

          For products that are sold in the forum using Warrior Payments, we only allow comments and replies from people asking questions or seeking clarification on the product.

          All reviews posted as replies in the thread, whether negative or positive will be removed if reported by the seller. We will also include all the reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments in the thread. (This is the only way we can confirm a review is coming from someone who has actually purchased the product)


          This solution addresses all the problems and preserves the benefits:
          • People can still have a conversation with the seller where they ask questions about the product or seek further clarification
          • The answers are all public which helps other potential buyers
          • Buyers can still leave honest reviews, whether negative or positive via Warrior Payments. We'll look to add these reviews to the thread so it can be easily seen by everyone.
          • People who have not purchased the product will not be able to leave a review
          • Rude replies will be removed if reported.
          • The investment of time handling support still exists. If a seller is not happy to invest the time in support, then they shouldn't be selling.
          • Sellers can report messages from buyers threatening to leave bad reviews if a refund is not provided. This is unacceptable and we will take appropriate action against people who do this.
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post


            <snip>

            If you won't be giving sellers the option to disable comments on their WSO's that they pay for, would you consider creating a new sub-forum on the Warrior Forum, separate from the WSO section, where product creators could just sell/list their products without it being open to comments?

            <snip>

            To me this idea has zero downside.
            I had mentioned creating a separate sub-forum earlier in the thread if a no comment option was actually enabled. It's not a terrible idea, but the downside would be without buyer feedback, the buying community could potentially be ripped off in a major way by good sales copy and a bad product and/or service.

            The forum's reputation could be harmed by those people being forced to leave feedback and filing bad reports all over the internet instead of on the forum. It would be harmed by those people (and the people they reach) never buying from anywhere on the forum again.

            If a poor product is advertised on an open thread, or a vendor is not delivering proper service on an open thread, then the buyers will leave reviews that warn other buyers that the product or seller may be a potential problem. They may be upset at the vendor, but the forum has allowed them to have an honest say.

            With the amount of beta, new, pie-in-the-sky, and untested products listed on this forum feedback is a good thing (for the most part).

            The forum already allows ads without feedback via the banner ad system. People are buying "blind" with only feedback from the seller's website and that's probably the best way to allow ads if feedback is not allowed. Normal banner ads are one thing, a 40 page long sales page on the forum is another.

            When people click on a "normal" ad they usually don't blame the website that they saw the ad on for any problems they might have with the purchased product. If duped by a 40 page Warrior Forum thread where no feedback is allowed it could become another story.

            Cheers

            -don
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            • I don't agree with what you're saying about how negative comments on other sites could reflect badly on the WF. It would reflect badly on the seller, not the site where the ad is being run. To your point though: If a product were being sold in an area where comments were disabled and there was a considerable amount of negative consensus about the product elsewhere on the internet, the WF moderators should reserve the right to take a look at the product and see if the negative comments are legitimate or unfounded. Since these threads wouldn't need the heavy moderation required of WSO threads, they could feasibly take a closer look at any product that was getting bad feedback and make the decision whether to pull the product from that section or not, and of course decide what they want to do with that seller too, if someone were abusing that section of the WF.

              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              I had mentioned creating a separate sub-forum earlier in the thread if a no comment option was actually enabled. It's not a terrible idea, but the downside would be without buyer feedback, the buying community could potentially be ripped off in a major way by good sales copy and a bad product and/or service.

              The forum's reputation could be harmed by those people being forced to leave feedback and filing bad reports all over the internet instead of on the forum. It would be harmed by those people (and the people they reach) never buying from anywhere on the forum again.

              If a poor product is advertised on an open thread, or a vendor is not delivering proper service on an open theread, then the buyers will leave reviews that warn other buyers that the product or seller may be a potential problem. They may be upset at the vendorm but the forum allowed them to have an honest say.

              With the amount of beta, new, pie-in-the-sky, and untested products listed on this forum feedback is a good thing (for the most part).

              The forum already allows ads without feedback via the banner ad system. People are buying "blind" with only feedback from the seller's website and that's probably the best way to allow ads if feedback is not allowed. Mormal banner ads are one thing, a 40 page long sales page on the forum is another.

              When people click on a "normal" ad they usually don't blame the website that they saw the ad on for any problems they might have with the purchased product. If duped by a 40 page Warrior Forum thread where no feedback is allowed it could become another story

              Cheers

              -don
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              • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                Banned
                Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                I don't agree with what you're saying about how negative comments on other sites could reflect badly on the WF.
                Really, that's easy. If the forum allows a bunch of vendors with large lists to come on here that launch some serious cra* it won't take long for the forum's reputation to take a dump. In-fact if you ask many of the veterans on here, the forum, and the WSO section has been taking a serious slide downhill for a while.

                If you need the names of a few vendors that are known to make a lot of sales of crap products to unsuspecting noobs, I can PM you a name or two. The feedback system prevents this activity and I know of several vendors that have been run off of the Warrior Forum by HONEST bad reviews. Once a few buyers get duped they leave a bad review and sales are severely limited. If no public review is allowed the vendor could potentially make hundreds or even a thousand or more sales and nobody knows until it's too late. They can't complain on the vendor's thread, so they complain all over the internet about WF allowing scammers.

                It would reflect badly on the seller, not the site where the ad is being run. To your point though: If a product were being sold in an area where comments were disabled and there was a considerable amount of negative consensus about the product elsewhere on the internet, the WF moderators should reserve the right to take a look at the product and see if the negative comments are legitimate or unfounded.
                So you do understand what I was talking about!

                Since these threads wouldn't need the heavy moderation required of WSO threads, they could feasibly take a closer look at any product that was getting bad feedback and make the decision whether to pull the product from that section or not, and of course decide what they want to do with that seller too, if someone were abusing that section of the WF.
                It's much easier to follow feedback and control bad sellers by viewing the forum threads than it is to track down and chase complaints all over the internet, the support desk, and via PMs.

                The system works fairly well and that's why it has been used for many years now.

                Cheers

                -don
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                • What I am suggesting is nothing more than a classified ad section/sub-forum. I don't agree with your assessment that a classified ad section would be damaging to the WF. Many forum-based sites have classified ads sections and their sites don't "take a dump" when some bad listings hit their site. Instead, the site just removes those bad listings. It's not complicated, it's a very simple issue to address if a bad product does get added to a classified ad section. It's very simple to remove a listing like that and very simple for others to report a scammy listing to the moderators.

                  Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                  Really, that's easy. If the forum allows a bunch of vendors with large lists to come on here that launch some serious cra* it won't take long for the forum's reputation to take a dump. In-fact if you ask many of the veterans on here, the forum, and the WSO section has been taking a serious slide downhill for a while.

                  If you need the names of a few vendors that are known to make a lot of sales of crap products to unsuspecting noobs, I can PM you a name or two. The feedback system prevents this activity and I know of several vendors that have been run off of the Warrior Forum by HONEST bad reviews. Once a few buyers get duped they leave a bad review and sales are severely limited. If no public review is allowed the vendor could potentially make hundreds or even a thousand or more sales and nobody knows until it's too late. They can't complain on the vendor's thread, so they complain all over the internet about WF allowing scammers.



                  So you do understand what I was talking about!



                  It's much easier to follow feedback and control bad sellers by viewing the forum threads than it is to track down and chase complaints all over the internet, the support desk, and via PMs.

                  The system works fairly well and that's why it has been used for many years now.

                  Cheers

                  -don
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                  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                    What I am suggesting is nothing more than a classified ad section/sub-forum. I don't agree with your assessment that a classified ad section would be damaging to the WF. Many forum-based sites have classified ads sections and their sites don't "take a dump" when some bad listings hit their site. Instead, the site just removes those bad listings. It's not complicated, it's a very simple issue to address if a bad product does get added to a classified ad section. It's very simple to remove a listing like that and very simple for others to report a scammy listing to the moderators.
                    I told you before that I had posted that proposal prior to you mentioning it earlier in the thread (if WF decides no commenting is in order). If you don't think a no comments allowed section will draw in the scammers and poor service people, then you don't know much about forum sales.

                    Do you remember the "up and coming" Forum Special Offers --> the blue one? IMO one of the reasons that forum started going downhill fast was when honest comments and reviews started being deleted by heavy handed admins which lead to the forum losing credibility. It did not take long for many regular buyers to realize too many scammers and vendors with poor customer service were listing there.

                    Even big-dog affiliate traffic could not save it and now the forum is basically a ghost town. IMO this forum needs to increase it's credibility with regards to offers, not decrease it.

                    Cheers

                    -don
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                      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                        Banned
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        • My feedback on some of the changes proposed:

          Originally Posted by Alaister View Post


          We will also include all the reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments in the thread. (This is the only way we can confirm a review is coming from someone who has actually purchased the product)
          Including all reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments does not address the problem of purchasers threatening to leave bad reviews if they are not given a refund. Just because someone is a verified purchaser through the Warrior Payments system does not preclude them from the extortion tactics discussed, which are very prevalent on the Warrior Forum.


          Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

          • The investment of time handling support still exists. If a seller is not happy to invest the time in support, then they shouldn't be selling.
          It is not an issue of a seller being unhappy or unwilling to invest hundreds of hours answering pre-sale questions. Many product creators, particularly product creators who spend their whole business day doing what they teach, literally don't have hundreds of hours to spend answering hundreds of questions.

          I made a suggestion earlier this evening that I would think keeps everyone happy, because it doesn't change the commenting style of the WSO section and it gives sellers a platform on the Warrior Forum to sell their products if they're unable to invest hundreds of hours answering questions and posts.

          Here's my suggestion:

          ...would you consider creating a new sub-forum on the Warrior Forum, separate from the WSO section, where product creators could just sell/list their products without it being open to comments? I don't see why creating an area like this would be objectionable, because it would just be a completely separate area of the Warrior Forum, which would require zero moderation and produce additional revenue for the Warrior Forum. Product creators would of course still pay to bump their products in this section and it wouldn't change the current commenting style of the WSO section.

          I can't imagine why anyone would have an objection to this idea of creating a separate sub-forum of the Warrior Forum, that would be separate from the WSO section, where product creators could pay to list their products, but where commenting could be disabled.

          This suggestion would leave the WSO section unchanged, create more revenue for the Warrior Forum, and require zero moderation. To me this idea has zero downside.
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          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
            Banned
            Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

            My feedback on some of the changes proposed:

            Including all reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments does not address the problem of purchasers threatening to leave bad reviews if they are not given a refund. Just because someone is a verified purchaser through the Warrior Payments system does not preclude them from the extortion tactics discussed, which are very prevalent on the Warrior Forum.
            Seriously, I don't mean to be rude, but if you are so worried about extortionists maybe you have done something very wrong in the past (or very right, I suppose) that is coming back to haunt you, or purchasing forum sales threads is just not for you.

            I purchased my first sales dotcom back in 1996, and have been selling full-time on the web since 2002. While I have dealt with more than my share of pirates, I remember very few, if any, extortion attempts. If you have so many problems with extortionists, and you buy as many ads and make as many sales as you say you do, then give the damn extortionists the product and write it off like you would product lost to piracy and be done with it.
            It is not an issue of a seller being unhappy or unwilling to invest hundreds of hours answering pre-sale questions. Many product creators, particularly product creators who spend their whole business day doing what they teach, literally don't have hundreds of hours to spend answering hundreds of questions.
            This is called the cost of doing business, I answer questions via email, my support desks, in-person, and over the phone and I have been doing this for almost 30 years.

            Pre-sale questions are a part of doing business and I have managed to sell millions of dollars worth of product and services in the past 30 years while answering pre-sale questions.

            This notion of you don't have time to answer pre-sale questions, and you can't hire someone to answer the questions for you if indeed you are so busy making sales is just a joke. Train someone to answer real questions and deal with extortionists yourself, or pay (or find) someone to deal with them too.

            About the only people that I know that won't answer questions, or won't answer them to the best of their ability, are scammers.

            Cheers

            -don
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            • Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              If you have so many problems with extortionists, and you buy as many ads and make as many sales as you say you do, then give the damn extortionists the product and write it off like you would product lost to piracy and be done with it.
              I didn't have "so many problems with extortionists." I just don't have the time to deal with extortionists over a $7-$27 product. Give them the product when they threaten me? No, sorry, I don't negotiate with terrorists or criminals and I certainly don't reward them with free copies of my products.

              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              This is called the cost of doing business, I answer questions via email, my support desks, in-person, and over the phone and I have been doing this for almost 30 years.

              Pre-sale questions are a part of doing business and I have managed to sell millions of dollars worth of product in the past 30 years while answering pre-sale questions.

              This notion of you don't have time to answer pre-sale questions, and you can't hire someone to answer the questions for you if indeed you are so busy making sales is just a joke. Train someone to answer real questions and deal with extortionists yourself, or pay (or find) someone to deal with them too.

              About the only people that I know that won't answer questions, or won't answer them to the best of their ability, are scammers.

              Cheers

              -don
              I've already stated this, but I'll say it again. If comments were disabled, I would have no problem at all answering pre-sales private messages through the Warrior Forum. I also provide a customer support ticketing system to my paying customers. The open commenting system just gives dishonest people too much leverage over honest product sellers. At least when someone sends me a WF private message, I know that they're either a paying member of the Warrior Forum or they've been here long enough that they have the ability to send me a private message. In the current set up, you constantly see people who create an account and immediately make a post that breaks the rules. Then, their account gets shut down and they just do the same thing all over again: They create another free account and make another post that breaks the rules. This open commenting free-for-all gives scammers the ability to post anything they want on honest product sellers' threads. The reasonable requirements that someone must have, to send a private message, would eliminate this problem and I'd be fine with answering pre-sales questions sent through the private messaging system. I'd even be fine with a rule stating that sellers have a pre-defined number of days to reply to a private message.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Mark,
                the extortion tactics discussed, which are very prevalent on the Warrior Forum.
                Actually, they're not. That myth is discussed a lot, but it's not nearly as common as you suggest. And yes, I would know.

                That said, it does happen. And there have been certain people and types of offers that attracted that kind of behavior. These usually involved offers that made big income promises, or were from sellers whose approach to answering customers was ... less than civil.

                Of course, sometimes it was just bad luck, or a serial extortionist. Even less common than the above, but it happens.

                It will not be possible to stop that stuff entirely. The determined creeps will just threaten to post elsewhere and SEO the comments. Make it harder for them and they'll work even harder to get what they want, just to prove they can "win."

                We're not talking about sane people here, after all.

                It's the same as the problem of sellers who were banned and keep creating new accounts and coming back for more. You'll never completely stop it. If you put too much focus on it, you end up creating undue issues for the honest vendors and customers who make up the vast majority.


                Paul
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                • Paul,

                  What are your thoughts on the Warrior Forum having a completely separate section where product creators could list their products and comments could be disabled? So, the WSO section would stay the same as it is now and a separate sub-forum could be created for product creators who don't have the man hours to reply to hundreds of posts? I don't see what the downside would be to this alternative.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Mark,Actually, they're not. That myth is discussed a lot, but it's not nearly as common as you suggest. And yes, I would know.

                  That said, it does happen. And there have been certain people and types of offers that attracted that kind of behavior. These usually involved offers that made big income promises, or were from sellers whose approach to answering customers was ... less than civil.

                  Of course, sometimes it was just bad luck, or a serial extortionist. Even less common than the above, but it happens.

                  It will not be possible to stop that stuff entirely. The determined creeps will just threaten to post elsewhere and SEO the comments. Make it harder for them and they'll work even harder to get what they want, just to prove they can "win."

                  We're not talking about sane people here, after all.

                  It's the same as the problem of sellers who were banned and keep creating new accounts and coming back for more. You'll never completely stop it. If you put too much focus on it, you end up creating undue issues for the honest vendors and customers who make up the vast majority.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Mark,
                    What are your thoughts on the Warrior Forum having a completely separate section where product creators could list their products and comments could be disabled?
                    I don't think it would work as well, but I don't see any ethical or tactical issues with it. If there are problems with offers there, customers will use the report post function more quickly, which should end up with bad deals being removed.

                    Looking at it strictly from a mod perspective, I'd be likely to nuke an offer in such a section more quickly, simply because there's not as much incentive for a seller to handle problems as there would be in an area with public feedback.


                    Paul
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                    • Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      I'd be likely to nuke an offer in such a section more quickly, simply because there's not as much incentive for a seller to handle problems as there would be in an area with public feedback.
                      Having pre-defined rules to keep sellers accountable, if they had a "no comments" listing, would be logical and fair. For example, "no comments" listings could require sellers to promptly reply to any negative allegations, within a clearly stated timeframe, and they'd have to CC the moderators with their reply to any complaints. The absence of commenting should not also mean the absence of accountability on the seller's part.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Mark,

                        It would have to be a very tight set of requirements. The bad sellers will stretch and contort in amazing ways to avoid dealing with unsatisfied customers.

                        I could fill a fair sized book with stories of some of the games they'll play.


                        Paul
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                        • There are always going to be bad apple sellers, whether in the WSO section or in a new section that has disabled comments. The best that can be done in any section of the Warrior Forum is to have clearly defined rules and enforce those rules for sellers and buyers. I don't see how a separate section with disabled comments, and pre-defined rules to keep sellers accountable, would create any unique problems that don't already exist inside the WSO section.

                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          Mark,

                          It would have to be a very tight set of requirements. The bad sellers will stretch and contort in amazing ways to avoid dealing with unsatisfied customers.

                          I could fill a fair sized book with stories of some of the games they'll play.


                          Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                    Paul,

                    What are your thoughts on the Warrior Forum having a completely separate section where product creators could list their products and comments could be disabled? .
                    Just curious - What would we call this section? The don't ask questions Marketplace?

                    Serious question (I am NOT taking a shot)because the only thing that seems to distinguish it is you can't comment. Plus I don't think it would have a desirable outcome for marketers in terms of traffic. Again unless you highlight it as something besides that (which would be misleading) why would it gain traffic? Sounds like just another forum to ignore.
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              • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                Banned
                Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                I didn't have "so many problems with extortionists." I just don't have the time to deal with extortionists over a $7-$27 product. Give them the product when they threaten me? No, sorry, I don't negotiate with terrorists or criminals and I certainly don't reward them with free copies of my products.
                If you don't have "many" problems with extortionists, then you should have no problem dealing with the few you do have. Again, it's the cost of doing business. Companies pay extortionists off that file fake lawsuits all the time (or they have a legal staff that fights them vigorously). When I was in higher end brick and mortar retail we often dealt with customers trying to extort us 7 ways from Sunday, and when it made sense to give them product or service instead of a refund we did it, when it didn't make sense we told them to get lost. In this case you are not even paying them off in $$$, you are giving them a copy of something you have already created...consider it a review copy leave it at that.

                As someone else mentioned, post the extortion attempts to the thread and use them as a sales tool. I certainly would not turn tail and leave the forum, I would deal with it one way or another.

                It appears that you may be losing a few sales by not advertising here, and you are not advertising here because you are letting a few possible extortion attempts hold you back from hundreds or thousands of sales. Write them off like pirates, dude. Thousands of my pictures have been pirated and shared all over the internet but I keep on selling, I don't stop selling because I have had thousands of images ripped off. If I used the price of a typical stock photo for reference....I have lost millions of dollars in sales to piracy.

                I have little sympathy for you if you don't know how to deal with a few possible $17 extortionists (without abandoning the platform altogether). If you can give a few pieces of your product away, and you make hundreds of sales or more, it's a no-brainer for me.

                I've already stated this, but I'll say it again. If comments were disabled, I would have no problem at all answering pre-sales private messages through the Warrior Forum.
                Actually, you have said real sellers like yourself don't have time to answer pre-sale questions, and they should not have to answer pre-sale questions. Let me remind you of your earlier position on answering questions.

                Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                I'm in favor of giving sellers the option to disable comments for the following reasons:

                1.) People who actually do what they teach don't have time to reply to hundreds of posts and hundreds of questions.

                <snip>

                Experienced product creators, who do what they teach, could not possibly afford to sell a WSO for $7-$27, in the current set up, because it would require hours and hours of their time. No one who actually does what they teach can afford to spend hours of their time answering questions about a $7-$27 product.
                I also provide a customer support ticketing system to my paying customers.
                Your prior pitch was you don't want to take the time to answer pre-sale questions.

                The open commenting system just gives dishonest people too much leverage over honest product sellers.
                No it doesn't, this forum has remained successful, and some vendors have spent 5 and maybe even 6 figures buying and bumping.

                At least when someone sends me a WF private message, I know that they're either a paying member of the Warrior Forum or they've been here long enough that they have the ability to send me a private message.
                You see the exact same info if they post on a thread.

                In the current set up, you constantly see people who create an account and immediately make a post that breaks the rules.
                Then report it for deletion.

                Then, their account gets shut down and they just do the same thing all over again:
                Then report it again.

                Create another free account and make another post that breaks the rules.
                Then report it again, eventually they will get tired and be done with you. If they are not using a proxy then they can be IP banned. I doubt you have this many persistent stalkers...but if you do, you must have really pi$$ed some people off in the past.

                This open commenting free-for-all gives scammers the ability to post anything they want on honest product sellers' threads.
                Dude, not everyone is a scammer and this system has worked quite well for many years.

                The reasonable requirements that someone must have, to send a private message, would eliminate this problem and I'd be fine with answering pre-sales questions sent through the private messaging system.
                PM's are not the way to go. Trying to answer a busy thread with PM's is silly. One question asked and answered on a thread could keep you from sending 50 or even 100 PMs on the same subject. Noobs don't have large PM boxes, the PM system has a time limit, and even my 500 PM box is a few messages from full and I don't want to delete what is in there. I have already downloaded thousands of PMs and I am sure many others have as well.

                I'd even be fine with a rule stating that sellers have a pre-defined number of days to reply to a private message.
                LoL, before you were telling us how real sellers don't have time to answer pre-sale questions, and now you want a few days to answer a PM. Wow, how long will a conversation with you last? 3 days for a potential non-responsive answer, the potential customer asks for further clarification and then waits another 3 days for an answer...etc. etc. --> that's a silly proposal that would never fly.

                I think you must have too many extortionists stalking you to post a public thread. The organic buying traffic ain't what it used to be here, so your best bet may be to stay off-site where you don't have to answer any questions.

                Seriously man, you are blowing an almost completely different tune than you were earlier. Now you are saying you would answer questions via PM, via support, etc. etc when before you were saying real vendors don't have time to answer questions....
                Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

                I'm in favor of giving sellers the option to disable comments for the following reasons:

                1.) People who actually do what they teach don't have time to reply to hundreds of posts and hundreds of questions.

                <snip>

                Experienced product creators, who do what they teach, could not possibly afford to sell a WSO for $7-$27, in the current set up, because it would require hours and hours of their time. No one who actually does what they teach can afford to spend hours of their time answering questions about a $7-$27 product.
                Dude, sellers have been doing just that for a very long time.

                Cheers

                -don
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

              I purchased my first sales dotcom back in 1996, and have been selling full-time on the web since 2002. While I have dealt with more than my share of pirates, I remember very few, if any, extortion attempts. If you have so many problems with extortionists, and you buy as many ads and make as many sales as you say you do, then give the damn extortionists the product and write it off like you would product lost to piracy and be done with it.
              Been here since 2007 and never had an extortion attempt. I guess Blessed gets them all or most of them. I don't think that they're quite as common as he/she suggests, although I am certain that they happen. I'm also certain that some sellers with some guts know how to deal with them effectively.

              Originally Posted by BlessedandGrateful View Post

              This open commenting free-for-all gives scammers the ability to post anything they want on honest product sellers' threads.
              Another been here since 2007 and that hasn't happened to me and not at all as common as you suggest, and normally taken care of quickly by moderators when reported, at least it was before Freelancer.

              Removal of real reviews posted in threads that have comments open is just another way to instill a lack of trust in WSOs, a problem that I thought you were trying to clean up with removing income claims. Let sellers choose to open or close comments and let the buyers decide if they like the closed system. Moderate trolls the same way that this forum has long moderated trolls by deleting and banning them when reported.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Alaister,

    I'm not sure I'm understanding your comment about removing reviews at the seller's request. That gets into very murky waters, unless you have clear and published guidelines for what's allowed and what isn't.

    As far as reports of extortion, the smarter creeps know not to use the PM function of the forum to send those kinds of notes. I can tell you from experience that some sellers will claim they've gotten those and are lying just to get a bad review removed.

    Again, like many problems, it's not common but it does happen. And those are the situations most likely to blow up into flame fests and long-term feuds.

    If someone tries the extortion thing and it's proven, they should obviously be removed. Proving it isn't easy, though, unless they use the PM function and the mods are told using the report post option. Anything else is "he said/she said" stuff.

    When you start looking at the way some people will slant pre-sale "questions," you're going to get an idea of just how sneaky a saboteur can be. It won't be a pleasant realization.


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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Alaister,

      I'm not sure I'm understanding your comment about removing reviews at the seller's request. That gets into very murky waters, unless you have clear and published guidelines for what's allowed and what isn't.
      The only reviews that are allowed will come from the Warrror Payments system, all others will be deleted. So pre-sale questions and clarifications are allowed, but reviews placed directly on the thread are not.

      So do you think the trouble will be distinguishing reviews from pre-sale questions? Or did you possibly miss the part where the only reviews allowed come from the Warrior Payments system? I doubt you did...

      I don't think he is talking about removing Warrior Payments reviews from verified buyers unless they cross a line. Reviews that crossed the line have been deleted in the past, so it's not a new concept. His proposal keeps the non-buyer fake reviews off of the thread completely.

      Not trying to argue with you, just trying to see where you think the main problem will lie.

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    If someone posts a negative review on Warrior Payments -- will it still appear if they received a refund?
    As a matter of policy, it should. Otherwise, you create a situation in which it's possible to create 100% positive threads for a product that paying customers hated.
    we go thru a Mod style set of exams, pay for certification, and have certain level of control to our thread that we pay for
    At the point where they let sellers moderate their own threads, I will write this place off as dead.

    That's the worst suggestion I've ever heard, despite hearing it so many times.

    If sellers learn to report *actual* trolls, the trolls can be dealt with. And the sellers will have to use some real discretion in what they report, or else run the risk of making it clear to the mods that they're trying to unfairly manipulate the review process.


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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      As a matter of policy, it should. Otherwise, you create a situation in which it's possible to create 100% positive threads for a product that paying customers hated.At the point where they let sellers moderate their own threads, I will write this place off as dead.
      Totally agree. As a potential buyer of any product, I would definitely want to know why someone didn't like it and requested a refund. Those reviews shouldn't be deleted just because a refund is given. Sure, that would benefit sellers, but it doesn't help potential buyers make an informed decision.

      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      That's the worst suggestion I've ever heard, despite hearing it so many times.
      Sorry, Anthony, but I fully agree with Paul on this one. If sellers want to control all reviews and comments made on their products, then they need to sell them on their own website.
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      If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Don,

    Part of the problem stems from the assumption that everything will be sold through WP. They can make that a reality any time they want, but until they do it leaves a lot of openings in how these things will be handled.

    This part...
    All reviews posted as replies in the thread, whether negative or positive will be removed if reported by the seller. We will also include all the reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments in the thread. (This is the only way we can confirm a review is coming from someone who has actually purchased the product)
    ... is ambiguous, as posted. The intent may be clear to Alaister, but it doesn't seem to be coming through clearly. Of course, I could just be missing something.

    The issue of pre-sales questions is more about the extortionists and trolls than reviewers.

    Anthony,

    [chuckle] Talk about making my point for me...


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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Don,

      Part of the problem stems from the assumption that everything will be sold through WP. They can make that a reality any time they want, but until they do it leaves a lot of openings in how these things will be handled.

      This part...... is ambiguous, as posted. The intent may be clear to Alaister, but it doesn't seem to be coming through clearly. Of course, I could just be missing something.

      The issue of pre-sales questions is more about the extortionists and trolls than reviewers.

      Paul
      The way I took it is he wants to institute this JUST through Warrior Payments which gives the WP system an advantage in this area, as only verified buyer reviews can be posted to the thread.

      He has no way to verify non-Warrior Pay buyers so people listing JVZoo, W+ threads etc. will still risk non-buyers posting fake and/or malicious reviews. The rude and over-the-top reviews and personal attacks will still be removed.

      I think the mod team, if they are placed in specific areas so they gain experience and understanding, will be able to distinguish (to some extent) the trolls and extortionists from members asking pre-sale questions. I don't think it takes a 140 IQ to figure it out if the mod reads the copy, reads the so-called pre-sale question, and has a basic understanding of what is being sold. Sure they will miss some, but that's the nature of the beast. If you want a foolproof system then list an off-site sales page with no feedback of any kind allowed or run a classified ad in your local newspaper.

      It's not rocket science, especially once a properly trained team is in place. If they need to hire some previous mods to do some advanced training on what they should look for then that is what should be done.

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author nicoli
    Great idea IMHO, pros and cons though.

    Perhaps elaborating and giving the seller the option to have only comments from purchasers. At least this way it filters a lot of the rubbish and potential buyers can still see reviews and buyer comments.

    I think it would be silly to omit such a feature, and I would be happy to purchase from a well known warrior who answers pm's but has disabled comments. Not so well known ones however, would raise red flags.

    Like I said, pros and cons.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Alaister,

    By the way, if you really want to clamp down on problem offers, require people to use verifiable real names when posting anything for sale.


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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Alaister,

      By the way, if you really want to clamp down on problem offers, require people to use verifiable real names when posting anything for sale.

      Just in case that one gains traction (I see some thanks under it) let me register my objection under a net privacy issue. Thats fine for most of us but there are some Warriors with very unique names where giving out their real name reveals far more about where they live , who they are. who their relatives are than say Mike Brown. Their paying customers have their names etc through their payment processors the whole world doesn't need to have that access. If Freelancer wants to collect that on the backend when paying for the ad then thats fine but actually posting under the name provides nothing significant

      Verifiable names,cards and IDs are not that hard to come by.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I see both sides of that one - I think FL should have VERIFIED personal info on sellers before they are allowed to sell to members here. I don't think all members need to have access to the real name and personal information but I think it should be on file.

        Consistently a 'forum name' runs a WSO - often they have a 'real name' they sign on their WSO sales page - and the paypal acct getting the payment is a totally different name - the thank you email is yet another name and often the email list you find yourself on is one you don't recognize as having purchased from.

        This confusion has always happened but now it seems to be the norm. As a buyer, I don't need to know personal information but I do need to know those who authorize the ads to be run here know WHO is selling to their members. I don't think that is unreasonable.

        Mike - I do think there are good products that would be sold at discount here if we had "no comment" option. For example, a new ebook being widely advertised might be offered here for a limited time at a discount by a seller who doesn't want to engage in questions/answer but in his sales pages has a link to a FAQ page where common answers are provided.

        I see this potential as affecting mainly ebooks or specific products rather than "MMO methods" or "how to build..." stuff. I also see it as a way for sellers to advertise, test sales copy and provide bargain prices for big launches outside the forum....which is what USED to happen here.

        I like options and I'd rather see a new method tested than argue for the status quo. That's just me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    While I stick to my general dislike of taking away the comments (even though they could be with other possible safeguards put in place as I mentioned in my 2 posts above), I can see very clearly now that if some of this thread's type of dialogue were to be allowed on a WSO it would die.

    There are some people (and I'm not naming names even though I have 2-3 in mind as I write this), where you know that if you ever get into a "discussion" with them they will keep pushing and pushing and pushing and won't let it go -- just like a bully that has to get the last word.

    Sometimes it does go beyond discussion and enters more the realm of
    a soul crushing experience
    just because some people just can't let it go. "Soul crushing" may be extreme for a forum (grow up - it's just a forum) but it does paint the type of black picture/feeling that I'm sure many have experienced here.

    Mark

    Edit: Looks like a lot of what I was referring to in this thread got cleaned up.
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I can see very clearly now that if some of this thread's type of dialogue were to be allowed on a WSO it would die.
      Exactly right, and that's the difference between a thread posted by Alaister, in the suggestion forum, that asks for discussion on potential forum changes that directly affect WSO sellers, buyers and the forum itself, and an actual paid WSO thread.

      For those that don't know this by now, basically the only discussion allowed on WSO threads are pre-sale questions and post-sale reviews. Of course we do see an occasional "can I get a review copy" which often times is not allowed, and we do see some of the "I did not get my download link" types of posts that travlinguy eluded to.

      I still think the general rule that allows only pre-sale questions and buyer reviews on WSO threads is a pretty good one. Most all other comments that the vendor does not think are appropriate can be reported for deletion, and if a mod agrees, the post is deleted. For the most part I think that system has worked fairly well.

      As I had mentioned above, I do think Alaister's suggestion in post #54 makes some sense for those that think they may be having trouble with "non-buyers" posting fake buyer reviews. It should be relatively easy for the admins to track serial refunders if the Warrior Payments platform is used, which is another plus.

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    I'm just wondering something.

    So a seller posts a WSO and disables comments.
    Sales start coming in and it turns out the product
    is crap for whatever reason and many buyers are
    unhappy.

    As the forum is currently set up those buyers can
    go to the product reviews section and post a there
    review of the product if I'm not mistaken.

    But I think there's an unintended consequence that
    disabling comments is going to create.

    More support tickets submitted directly to the forum
    complaining about the WSO from the buyers. Then
    the mods will have to do all this discovery to actually
    determine if the complaint they just received in the
    support system is from an actual buyer and not a
    troll.

    I'm willing to bet that right now there's already enough
    of this going on currently despite the fact that buyers
    can still post their reviews on sellers threads. So turning
    off comments is only going to increase this tickets at
    the WF support desk.

    Another scenario for submitting tickets to the forum
    about a seller would be a sellers lack of response on
    their support desk. Buyers will then turn to the next
    place they know of to get help, the WF support desk.

    The mod's will then have a duty to investigate the claim
    and try to verify it or whatever.

    It's just messy any way you look at it and I believe it will
    in the end make the Forum and mods more involved in
    a sellers business they they need or should be.

    I don't for a second believe that a feature to disable
    comments on WSO's is what will entice a single power
    seller back to post WSO's.

    I believe the REAL issue is the time it would often take
    for a reported post to be deleted when a seller reported it.

    Perhaps the forum could consider having a mod team that
    is dedicated to only the WSO section. They review a sellers
    offer for approval and they moderate the sellers reports
    of posts on their sales threads.

    Knowing there's dedicated WF support staff who's only job
    is to moderate the WSO section would go a long way in making
    a power seller more comfortable coming back and putting up
    offers.

    Additionally I have to question the sincerity of ANY business
    who has an offer and doesn't want to reply to pre-sales questions
    to to me that's a totally INVALID reason for disabling comments.

    If you don't want to answer pre-sales question then go run your
    offer on paid ad networks NOT a forum where the platform is ALL
    ABOUT DISCUSSION!
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      I'm just wondering something.

      So a seller posts a WSO and disables comments.
      Sales start coming in and it turns out the product
      is crap for whatever reason and many buyers are
      unhappy.

      As the forum is currently set up those buyers can
      go to the product reviews section and post a there
      review of the product if I'm not mistaken.
      Actually I think it is against the current rules to post reviews of WSOs in the product reviews section because they should be posted in the sales thread. At least that is what I recall but may be mistaken.

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        Actually I think it is against the current rules to post reviews of WSOs in the product reviews section because they should be posted in the sales thread. At least that is what I recall but may be mistaken.

        Mark
        I think that's the rule also but not allowing it if they are just going to allow sellers to delete and unfavorable reviews just has the appearance of endorsing bad sellers and allowing them to sell without accountability.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Well your right but it happens a lot because it's not moderated enough I guess. But those post WILL start appearing there if comments are disabled because buyers will find any way they can to voice their opinions.

        I for one would one as a seller would like to know that opinions are posted on my sales thread instead of some where else where I don't know about. lol Good or bad.

        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        Actually I think it is against the current rules to post reviews of WSOs in the product reviews section because they should be posted in the sales thread. At least that is what I recall but may be mistaken.

        Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      I'm just wondering something.

      So a seller posts a WSO and disables comments.
      Sales start coming in and it turns out the product
      is crap for whatever reason and many buyers are
      unhappy.

      As the forum is currently set up those buyers can
      go to the product reviews section and post a there
      review of the product if I'm not mistaken.
      As Mark and Suzanne have stated, you can't post WSO reviews in the review section. I had mentioned in post #52 if comments are disabled on a thread, then I think that thread should be allowed to be reviewed in the review section.

      The no WSO review rule is #6

      6. This forum is not for reviews of WSO offers.
      But I think there's an unintended consequence that
      disabling comments is going to create.

      More support tickets submitted directly to the forum
      complaining about the WSO from the buyers.
      Agreed, my thoughts exactly.

      I don't for a second believe that a feature to disable
      comments on WSO's is what will entice a single power
      seller back to post WSO's.
      I have stated similar and still believe that will be the case.

      Knowing there's dedicated WF support staff who's only job
      is to moderate the WSO section would go a long way in making
      a power seller more comfortable coming back and putting up
      offers.
      I have seen the admins mention a mod or mods are (or will be) "dedicated" to the WSO section, having a decent sized team of mods that specialize there would be great.

      Additionally I have to question the sincerity of ANY business
      who has an offer and doesn't want to reply to pre-sales questions
      to to me that's a totally INVALID reason for disabling comments.

      If you don't want to answer pre-sales question then go run your
      offer on paid ad networks NOT a forum where the platform is ALL
      ABOUT DISCUSSION!
      Bingo! I have stated very close to the same thing a couple of times.

      Nice post.

      Cheers

      -don
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    I have seen the admins mention a mod or mods are (or will be) "dedicated" to the WSO section, having a decent sized team of mods that specialize there would be great.
    Yes and to expand on this the team needs to be big enough for EACH major time zones normal hours of operation for businesses.

    I might be mistaken but I believe that most of the mods are not in the US time zones and because they obviously have to sleep any post that requires deletion during the a US time zone could end up being there for many hours.

    This is the internets! It doesn't sleep! HAHA
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Kay King
      So you asked about testing an option - and then abandoned the idea without trying it?

      The way I see it, Alaister had asked the community what we thought about the idea.
      Most people would have seen the incomplete post and realized I had a computer problem - you are so anxious to argue and be right you jump on it.

      What I wanted to ADD - and couldn't - was - the ONLY CHANGE I see in what Alaister apparently DECIDED to do is the part about adding reviews FROM WARRIOR PAY. That tells me this wasn't really about "no comment" to begin with.

      What about reviews from other systems. Are the reviews posted on WarriorPay going to be the only "valid" reviews available? No one asked, did they? Who will be "adding them"? Mods? Sellers?

      Other than that - every item mentioned as "not allowed" has not been allowed in the past, either. Only difference is the rules were enforced - the threads were moderated.

      I might be mistaken but I believe that most of the mods are not in the US time zones and because they obviously have to sleep any post that requires deletion during the a US time zone could end up being there for many hours.
      My impression was the intent was to run shifts of mods to cover 24 hrs - but that doesn't seem to be happening.

      I think it would be unfair to sellers to allow members to post about their WSO's in the review section. That means the seller could not defend himself without being "promotional" and there's no way to know if the "reviewers" bought the product or not....refunded or not....have a bone to pick or not...have an affiliate link to promote or not...

      I don't have a dog in this hunt. I no longer run WSOs though I do buy them on occasion. I never pay attention to reviews from people unless I KNOW those people through interaction here. Most reviews I see posted are of the nature "I think this sounds like a great idea" or "this is easy to read and understand and should work well". big whoop! I see the same few "reviewers" in WSO after WSO and maybe the only reviews allowed should be from BUYERS not from those will to post after getting free copies.

      I don't think WHAT the rules are is as important as enforcing the rules. That enforcement is critical in the WSO section to protect both buyers and reputable sellers.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        What I wanted to ADD - and couldn't - was - the ONLY CHANGE I see in what Alaister apparently DECIDED to do is the part about adding reviews FROM WARRIOR PAY. That tells me this wasn't really about "no comment" to begin with.

        What about reviews from other systems. Are the reviews posted on WarriorPay going to be the only "valid" reviews available? No one asked, did they? Who will be "adding them"? Mods? Sellers?
        I agree. It seems to be more of a coercion to use WPay rather than a meaningful way to run WSOs. There should be zero difference in the rules of comments on WSOs no matter which payment solution you choose.

        In addition, the Feedback should have always been available on WSOs run by WPay. Otherwise, what exactly is the purpose of it?

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Other than that - every item mentioned as "not allowed" has not been allowed in the past, either. Only difference is the rules were enforced - the threads were moderated.
        This is exactly the truth. The system worked before and mods enforced the rules. I'm not opposed to allowing listings with NO comments allowed, but I am opposed to a different set of rules for WPay and other listings and for the ability to remove legitimate reviews if comments are open. That's a corrupt system and will do nothing but foster distrust of management here and WSOs in general.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    This verified seller thing, might could in and of itself, cut out a lot of junk -- especially if the seller uses Warrior Payments . Sure Joe can go get a new WF account, but a new PayPal account might be a little more difficult. WP can track and verify based on the PP account.

    I've mentioned this before as a way to clean up the place and I think FL could require other payment processors to "certify" that Joe Blow (username) matches the PP account old Joe is using.

    Sure Joe can get his buddy to let him borrow his account but...

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,

    Those are valid concerns. I also think the customers' concerns need to be watched out for, and having a real name is important in some cases.

    As long as the forum admin has a real human name (not an easily created company name), most of the concern is met. We have too many sellers who make a habit of creating new companies, or just accounts with fake names, for the sole purpose of getting around previous bans.

    I've been told by two separate lawyers that this is illegal, and considered "unauthorized access to a protected computer." Forcing them to either provide their real names or carry the lie further makes them choose just how deep into fraud they're willing to dive.


    Paul

    PS: For the folks who don't get it, "protected computer" doesn't mean "a device with technical blocks in place to keep you out." It means, any computer covered under the law in question. Which means, any computer in the US or its territories.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mike,

      Those are valid concerns. I also think the customers' concerns need to be watched out for, and having a real name is important in some cases.

      As long as the forum admin has a real human name (not an easily created company name), most of the concern is met.

      I can agree with that 100% then but it seemed by "post" that what was being discussed is the username the WSO showed. Some people used to argue everyone should show their name for marketing but a lot of people don't want to be a personality in the MMO space. they just want to sell their product. Certainly FL should know who they are though.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      I like options and I'd rather see a new method tested than argue for the status quo. That's just me.
      certainly and I am for turning off comments if the seller wants it in the present WSO section. I just don't know what would be the reason people go to that other forum. I can see why the seller would want to post there I just don't know what you would classify it as to make me want to go there to look.

      Whats the value add to the BUYER? If none then eh...the traffic is going to be little and nothing compared to the main WSO forum.

      I liked Alaister's compromise and I don't believe because Warrior payments was mentioned that it was never about removing comments

      Many of us said we want just the buyers to post reviews. Like it or not , prefer other systems better or not FL can only verify and control what they have access to and thats their own payment system. WF payments is probably going to come up often . People may love third party systems but theres just a whole lot of stuff that only can be done when its integrated and thats going to be Warrior Payments.

      It might look the same to you but because people want to ask questions and Vbulletin cannot discriminate on its own between a question and a review the seller has to report it. So I think it does constitute a substantial change. The default is remove without question any and all reviews is different. Its just that it cannot be done automatically due to the technical restraints. When a seller reports a negative review then the standard procedure would then be to remove ALL reviews.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    One thing about FL and Warrior Payments is that not having their own solution available was one of the forum's reasons for not being able to clamp down on various issues in years past.

    Now they do. I haven't used it yet but have read enough to know that many think it's not up to par with the others yet. It sounds like getting it there will be a more and more important priority for FL.

    If Amazon started allowing people to pay in bitcoin through a 3rd party processor, they'd most have to likely remove or otherwise restrict the "verified buyer" tag that comes along with some reviewer's comments simply because Amazon either doesn't know for sure it was really purchased due to limits or it would be too much hassle to set it up or something. That's just the way things work when trying to interface two competing systems in the real world.

    I think it would be a mistake for the perception to be that FL was protecting only products brought through Warrior Payments if at the same time it still wasn't ready for prime time comparatively or if you couldn't use it except to sell WSOs or some such.

    The perception would be one of heavy handed control for their own benefit NOT to help clean up the WSO section. While they have that right, what FL needs more than anything going forward is to build a relationship with the community here to the point that no one ever brings up things like corporate policy (or other jabs) again because there is mutual trust and even friendship. Win-win-win.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
    I'm going to make a controversial suggestion.

    If the seller uses warriorpayments then they can turn off comments and do what has been said:
    For products that are sold in the forum using Warrior Payments, we only allow comments and replies from people asking questions or seeking clarification on the product.

    All reviews posted as replies in the thread, whether negative or positive will be removed if reported by the seller. We will also include all the reviews that are recorded in Warrior Payments in the thread. (This is the only way we can confirm a review is coming from someone who has actually purchased the product)
    However if the seller uses another payment system then they cant turn off comments or delete any.

    Now here is the bit that will get people upset:
    Raise the price of WSO's, classifieds etc.. to $25-$30 UNLESS they use warriorpayments then it stays at $20 (also keep free offers at $20).

    This way it adds 2 incentives to sellers to use warrior payments, 1 they can control comments to an extent, 2 they pay a lower listing fee.

    This will also benefit FreeLancer as they should see an increase in people using warrior payments which is what they need as they have to recoup the 3 million notes they paid for the forum.
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