create dynamic websites without...

13 years ago

Hi Andrew, I apologize that I can't help you on the technicalities of the question, but I wonder why you want to go down this route? What would be the advantages?

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

The advantages I see is:

1. being able to use a server that does not support scripting and databases to build an interactive site.

2. Not having a site dependent on server technology

3. The ability to easily export and move sites.

There are probably more but these are my reasons.

I've tried a lot of host and they all have problems. Even when they are up 99% of the time, they still have backend issues that affect databases and scripting languages.

I recently had such a problem and all my database driven sites were down. My html sites were fine but the parts that did use scripting to pull rss and such failed.

Originally Posted by DPM70

Hi Andrew, I apologize that I can't help you on the technicalities of the question, but I wonder why you want to go down this route? What would be the advantages?

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by andrew_writes

The advantages I see is:

1. being able to use a server that does not support scripting and databases to build an interactive site.

2. Not having a site dependent on server technology

3. The ability to easily export and move sites.

There are probably more but these are my reasons.

I've tried a lot of host and they all have problems. Even when they are up 99% of the time, they still have backend issues that affect databases and scripting languages.

I recently had such a problem and all my database driven sites were down. My html sites were fine but the parts that did use scripting to pull rss and such failed.

Your first two hopes are non-starters...interactivity depends on scripting of some sort - the answers to the if/then question have to come from somewhere, yes? Your server is 'server technology'. It runs scripts and programs that change it from a box with disk drives into something that serves up web pages on demand. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're calling server technology?

Given the proper tools and a tiny bit of practice, moving a database-driven site is as easy or easier than moving hundreds or thousands of regular files.

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

I understand your point about scripting, I know a dynamic site needs scripting of some sort but does it have to be server side?

I think java is client side, correct?

Couldn't a dynamic flat file database system be created with only java?

In other words, a java web app that serves up html to the browser without any server side interaction to do so that also uses a flatfile or xml database?

Is this possible and if so, how hard would that be?

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

Your first two hopes are non-starters...interactivity depends on scripting of some sort - the answers to the if/then question have to come from somewhere, yes? Your server is 'server technology'. It runs scripts and programs that change it from a box with disk drives into something that serves up web pages on demand. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're calling server technology?

Given the proper tools and a tiny bit of practice, moving a database-driven site is as easy or easier than moving hundreds or thousands of regular files.

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by andrew_writes

I understand your point about scripting, I know a dynamic site needs scripting of some sort but does it have to be server side?

I think java is client side, correct?

Couldn't a dynamic flat file database system be created with only java?

In other words, a java web app that serves up html to the browser without any server side interaction to do so that also uses a flatfile or xml database?

Is this possible and if so, how hard would that be?

I think you're kind of tilting at windmills here...

As phpbbexpert said, Java is a server-side language ( like PHP, ASP/.NET, Ruby, etc.). Javascript is a client-side scripting language that runs in the user's browser.

Think of it this way, pretty much at the most basic level:

the client requests a web page

the server gets the request

server uses scripting/databases to build the web page, which may or may not include client-side scripting code

server sends XHTML to client

client uses scripting (javascript) to display what was sent (or not, could be just plain XHTML)

In a nutshell, what you're asking for isn't practical.

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

I know what I'm looking for may not seem practical, especially for a high traffic site but it would be handy in dealing with issues for which I started this post.

Question: In what particular way besides speed of loading, would such an app not be practical in your view?

As far as impractical things go, couldn't they be overcome?, isn't that how development progress is made?

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

I think you're kind of tilting at windmills here...

As phpbbexpert said, Java is a server-side language ( like PHP, ASP/.NET, Ruby, etc.). Javascript is a client-side scripting language that runs in the user's browser.

Think of it this way, pretty much at the most basic level:

the client requests a web page

the server gets the request

server uses scripting/databases to build the web page, which may or may not include client-side scripting code

server sends XHTML to client

client uses scripting (javascript) to display what was sent (or not, could be just plain XHTML)

In a nutshell, what you're asking for isn't practical.

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by andrew_writes

I know what I'm looking for may not seem practical, especially for a high traffic site but it would be handy in dealing with issues for which I started this post.

Question: In what particular way besides speed of loading, would such an app not be practical in your view?

As far as impractical things go, couldn't they be overcome?, isn't that how development progress is made?

It wouldn't be practical because in order to have any client interactivity, at some point in the page-serving process decisions need to be made on how to build the page that's sent to the client. The client (your visitor's browser) can't make those decisions because it doesn't have the ability to interact with the web server in terms of telling the server what parts of which files to serve back.

A web browser ( Firefox, IE, etc. ) is pretty much a single-purpose program. All it does is request a web page from a web server, and display what is sent back to it. It's not the job of the browser, nor does it have the ability, to determine what the page content will be.

That is the job of the web server. And like it or not, if the served page needs to be built from input from the visitor, in other words, if it doesn't already exist in a file as an HTML document, some kind of scripting will be involved - whether it's to determine which XML file to extract a part of, or which database table to query.

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

I'm not trying to avoid scripting all together, just client side scripting and databases.

So, you are saying that it would not be worth the hassle at all, not even for small, (I need em quick), set up sites for sales and such?

Can't Javascript handle the interactivity you are talking about or is javascritpt not powerful enough?

Can't Javascript build html pages on the fly as well as run in a browser and also build sites using a flat file database system.

Is there no way to make it fast if such a thing was built?

Maybe I should just learn javascript and such and start experimenting myself?

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

It wouldn't be practical because in order to have any client interactivity, at some point in the page-serving process decisions need to be made on how to build the page that's sent to the client. The client (your visitor's browser) can't make those decisions because it doesn't have the ability to interact with the web server in terms of telling the server what parts of which files to serve back.

A web browser ( Firefox, IE, etc. ) is pretty much a single-purpose program. All it does is request a web page from a web server, and display what is sent back to it. It's not the job of the browser, nor does it have the ability, to determine what the page content will be.

That is the job of the web server. And like it or not, if the served page needs to be built from input from the visitor, in other words, if it doesn't already exist in a file as an HTML document, some kind of scripting will be involved - whether it's to determine which XML file to extract a part of, or which database table to query.

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KirkMcD

13 years ago

Originally Posted by andrew_writes

Can't Javascript handle the interactivity you are talking about or is javascritpt not powerful enough?

Can't Javascript build html pages on the fly as well as run in a browser and also build sites using a flat file database system.

Yes, JS with AJAX can give the illusion of a page being created on the fly.

But let me tell you the bigest problem, the search engine spiders do not execute JS. The pages will be mostly blank to them. If you depend on the SEs for traffic, you won't be getting any.

Back to Java for a minute, yes it can be executed locally, but it won't be a web page anymore. You will be creating an actual program that will be run on the clients machine.

You know instead of trying not to use server side scripting and databases, you should be trying to find a more reliable host. The time, money and aggravation you save by not trying to reinvent the wheel, will be a lot more than the extra cost of a more reliable host.

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

Thank you,

I guess I am asking a bit much. Reliable host or not, I just wanted some choices.

Thanks everybody for your help.

Originally Posted by KirkMcD

Yes, JS with AJAX can give the illusion of a page being created on the fly.

But let me tell you the bigest problem, the search engine spiders do not execute JS. The pages will be mostly blank to them. If you depend on the SEs for traffic, you won't be getting any.

Back to Java for a minute, yes it can be executed locally, but it won't be a web page anymore. You will be creating an actual program that will be run on the clients machine.

You know instead of trying not to use server side scripting and databases, you should be trying to find a more reliable host. The time, money and aggravation you save by not trying to reinvent the wheel, will be a lot more than the extra cost of a more reliable host.

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mikeonrails

13 years ago

There are 2 ways to do some of what you want but that I would never recommend. The 3rd way is a very advanced topic that is becoming popular in tech circles. It is a completely legit and secure way of doing things:

1) Use JQuery's .load() (see: .load() – jQuery API)
You have a bunch of html files that contain the data you want and you load that data dynamically by making calls to those pages. 1-way interactivity can be done by selectively calling these files.

2) Load all the information in the html file and use javascript to show/hide the information.

3) Run server-side javascript using node.js. This is javascript on the server. It takes up less resources that running something like php and probably wouldn't go down when php goes down. To handle data you would use something called Redis, which is known as a key-value store. It's a program written in C that serves the purpose of a database but is not a database in the strict sense. I do not recommend going this route because you will end up spending a lot of money on development(it;s a very niche market). All the software is free but it requires specialized knowledge.

If your hosting is unreliable for server-side scripts, I recommend getting a new host.

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

Thank you very much, that was very, very informative.

I love to learn about things like that and don't mind the research so I will look up your recommendations.

Good job.

I think the first idea is new to me and second, not so much, actually I have a web template I created for sales pages that does this and make it unique to each reader according to what they choose in radio button. It's like the dynamic sales page being sold online but much better but takes a manual coding on the developers part so you have to know what you are doing.

Originally Posted by mikeonrails

There are 2 ways to do some of what you want but that I would never recommend. The 3rd way is a very advanced topic that is becoming popular in tech circles. It is a completely legit and secure way of doing things:

1) Use JQuery's .load() (see: .load() – jQuery API)
You have a bunch of html files that contain the data you want and you load that data dynamically by making calls to those pages. 1-way interactivity can be done by selectively calling these files.

2) Load all the information in the html file and use javascript to show/hide the information.

3) Run server-side javascript using node.js. This is javascript on the server. It takes up less resources that running something like php and probably wouldn't go down when php goes down. To handle data you would use something called Redis, which is known as a key-value store. It's a program written in C that serves the purpose of a database but is not a database in the strict sense. I do not recommend going this route because you will end up spending a lot of money on development(it;s a very niche market). All the software is free but it requires specialized knowledge.

If your hosting is unreliable for server-side scripts, I recommend getting a new host.

Thanks

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axelbrian

13 years ago

Hi ,
The above information are great for me .I want to develop new Dimc website and I hope your article will be helpful for me.

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phpbbxpert

13 years ago

I'm not sure if you are referring to Java or JavaScript, 2 different languages.

Javascript is client side,
Java is server side and can be invoked on a client machine with an applet for things like say screenshots. For typical site stuff it is all server side.

Flat file based sites can be dynamic in any server language using SQLlite or XML, Yaml, etc.... It just depends how it is developed. For large traffic sites it can require larger resources because of the constant file reading/writing.

There are a few CMS's that use file based databases, but are not as popular or heard of because of it.

For user interactive sites you are almost always going to need server side programming because it can't be done securely user side.

I think Steve was correct in that if you use the proper tools and setup hosting properly, Service based Databases (MySQL) will always be faster to move, backup and use. This is why they are so commonly used.

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

Ok, Javascript then, I thought that java could be implemented client side. Learn something everyday.

Originally Posted by phpbbxpert

I'm not sure if you are referring to Java or JavaScript, 2 different languages.

Javascript is client side,
Java is server side and can be invoked on a client machine with an applet for things like say screenshots. For typical site stuff it is all server side.

Flat file based sites can be dynamic in any server language using SQLlite or XML, Yaml, etc.... It just depends how it is developed. For large traffic sites it can require larger resources because of the constant file reading/writing.

There are a few CMS's that use file based databases, but are not as popular or heard of because of it.

For user interactive sites you are almost always going to need server side programming because it can't be done securely user side.

I think Steve was correct in that if you use the proper tools and setup hosting properly, Service based Databases (MySQL) will always be faster to move, backup and use. This is why they are so commonly used.

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rogervickers

13 years ago

Very interesting information shared on this thread on creating dynamic websites withtout html . Thanks a lot.

Thanks

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andrew_writes

13 years ago

The problems for which I made this thread are in the process of being resolved. The real issue became apparent when my host took a closer look. I'm using the UAW plugin for content and my site now has a massive amount of content in the database which is essentially blowing up the shared hosting. My host is going to switch the database to VPS and that should solve it.

The only other solution would have been to not use the UAW plugin anymore which is not really an option right now since it has taken my site from 12 million traffic rank to 600 k traffic rank in about two months.

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Ken Durham

13 years ago

Originally Posted by andrew_writes

Hi,

The reason I ask this is because even when my host fails at times, my html sites are still showing, just not the dynamic sites.

I would like to be able to create a site that is dynamic but does not depend on the database run on a server or scripting run on a server.

Thanks for your help in advance
Andrew Witherspoon

If the host is down then your html sites appear because they are in your browser's cache and being served from there. That, or just the database server is down or lagging badly.

Going to a flat file system is going backwards in time. They are not faster and certainly a major pain to deal with. Once you get to where you are not sharing a database with 2000 other people the speeds should increase dramatically.

Interesting concept though
Good luck

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jalicia18 13 years ago

ahmm. all I can say is you can still include the other html file through the use of html include command like this 
but the disadvantages is you can't define the content where to show up, it's still static pages. If you know php script, you can declare the codes on what are the content will show up on the page like

For Body Content:
<?php
if($_GET[page]=="aboutus"){ echo "Welcome to my website";
?>

For Navigation:
<?php
if($_GET["page"]=="aboutus")
{
echo "<a href=\"index.php?page=home\">Home</a> | ";
echo "About Us | ";
echo "<a href=\"index.php?page=contactus\">Contact Us</a> |";
}
?>

Note:
You can still use dynamic pages + contents without a database in using PHP+HTML script.
===================
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FabianSmith

13 years ago

thanks for the info which you shared above it's really worthy....

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Ambius

13 years ago

I can understand wanting to avoid databases because they are often hosted on a 2nd machine, sometimes in a 2nd building, and their uptime could be an issue.

But I can't imagine how it would be possible for html to still work while server-side scripts such as php are down. html and php are both executed by the same machine. It think what you want to do is create php pages that read from text or xml files instead of reading from databases.

You can do this by hand quickly and easily for a basic site template. Or, there are several CMS frameworks available for you to try. A quick google search gave me this: A list of XML based CMS for Web Developers | TutorialFeed

you can check with your host to see if any of those CMS are already installed and available for you.

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phpbbxpert

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ambius

But I can't imagine how it would be possible for html to still work while server-side scripts such as php are down. html and php are both executed by the same machine.

HTML is not executed, it is served by HTTP request.
As long as Apache is a live, HTML will work.

PHP is compiled at run time (page load), there for it is a completely different thing. Although generally if Apache is up, PHP works, if it is installed.

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Ambius

13 years ago

Originally Posted by phpbbxpert

HTML is not executed, it is served by HTTP request.
As long as Apache is a live, HTML will work.

PHP is compiled at run time (page load), there for it is a completely different thing. Although generally if Apache is up, PHP works, if it is installed.

semantics. If the php won't execute then the html won't serve either.
Whereas SQL is an entirely different resource.