? for all developers/designers

13 years ago

I always peg myself as a consultant/developer.

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myeanne

13 years ago

well, I always assured our client that we will do our best to provide them great services. The staff assigned to them were all experienced and we let them give their suggestions or any comments that they would think about the project.

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interestingindeed

13 years ago

Online consultant.

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Wechito

13 years ago

It depends. I'm both designer and developer.

As a designer, most of the time I have to think about the box. Many people do not tell you what exactly they want. You have to figure out how to graphically better express the feel they want or what they want to transmit.

As a developer, things go the other way, I have to code a design that is already done (sometimes is my design, sometimes the client bring their own).

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healingoasis

13 years ago

I always say I am a consultant / designer.

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xtrapunch

13 years ago

Unless you want to do the mundane task of uploading content manually, make sure you tell your client that it will be his job to add content.

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unlimitedmarketing

13 years ago

Do more than what you are paid to do. Do your very best. It will pay off in the long run.

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Istvan Horvath

13 years ago

The title doesn't really matter...

Originally Posted by goin4it

Are you responsible for simply doing what your customer asks or do you feel it is part of your job to put some thought into the site at hand,

Well, YOU are the pro, you should think and create - the client is always dumb and doesn't know what he wants. Take his hand and guide him to the light... to see what you do for him and how your approach will make his site shine

I always educated my clients. If the client thinks he knows more than you do... dump him! Immediately. Otherwise you will end up in the psychiatry, LOL

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goin4it

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath

The title doesn't really matter...

Well, YOU are the pro, you should think and create - the client is always dumb and doesn't know what he wants. Take his hand and guide him to the light... to see what you do for him and how your approach will make his site shine

I always educated my clients. If the client thinks he knows more than you do... dump him! Immediately. Otherwise you will end up in the psychiatry, LOL

In this situation I am not the pro. I am not a designer or a developer this is why I hired a Designer/Developer. I am the "Dumb" customer. However I do know what I want. I have yet to find someone that has impressed me. I created the look, the feel, the functionality, features of the site that I own with no help or suggestions from the people that I have hired. With that being said I am not happy with the site. Is it too much to ask someone that presents them self as a Developer/Designer to fulfill those titles? Just frustrated

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Istvan Horvath

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

I am the "Dumb" customer.

That's fine... Nobody's perfect :p

Originally Posted by goin4it

However I do know what I want.

In my books that puts you in that category of clients that I should dump immediately. Because seemingly you also know how to do it...

Originally Posted by goin4it

I have yet to find someone that has impressed me.

I'am not in that business, so I'll skip that requirement

Originally Posted by goin4it

I created the look, the feel, the functionality, features of the site that I own with no help or suggestions from the people that I have hired. With that being said I am not happy with the site.

And you don't see any controversial relation between the first and second sentence? I guess that's your issue, sorry.

I am quite sure because of your "knowledge" with which you created all the look, the feel, the functionality, features of the site... you were trying to micromanage your project instead of letting the developer do his job.

All a client should be able to formulate clearly is: WHAT do you expect as an end result. Those like you always wanted to tell me HOW to achieve the goal - and that was the moment I kicked them out.

You created your stuff... and you are unhappy with it. Then you hire a pro and you, probably, expect him to do exactly the same as per your ideas... just 'better'.

Another issue nobody mentioned: the price.
You can have a WP theme designed here at WF for $50.
I know pro theme developers and their prices start at $1,000 and up.

====================
If you are not guilty of what I described above, I apologize. It's nothing personal: I don't know you. It's just the image/impression that comes across from your posts here.

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

In this situation I am not the pro. I am not a designer or a developer this is why I hired a Designer/Developer. I am the "Dumb" customer. However I do know what I want. I have yet to find someone that has impressed me. I created the look, the feel, the functionality, features of the site that I own with no help or suggestions from the people that I have hired. With that being said I am not happy with the site. Is it too much to ask someone that presents them self as a Developer/Designer to fulfill those titles? Just frustrated

Yes, it is too much to ask - I know of very few people who can fill the shoes of both designer and developer with any degree of mastery. They are two separate and distinct disciplines.

You "created the look, the feel, the functionality, features of the site that I own with no help or suggestions from the people that I have hired." Yet, you are still "not happy with the site." But you seem to resist the advice of the people that you hire. So from that, I have to conclude that

the several people that you have hired are all just shooting in the dark and are basically incompetent, or
you aren't able to communicate effectively just what exactly it is you want, or
you are receiving competent advice from the people you hire but you too emotionally invested in the site you "created" to take it

To answer your original question,

Basically what are the functions and or operations would you be responsible for? Are you responsible for simply doing what your customer asks or do you feel it is part of your job to put some thought into the site at hand, think outside of the box, stay ahead of the cure and offer your clients suggestions to better their site?

my answer is "it depends on what you've hired me/us to do."

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goin4it

13 years ago

Steve,

When I say that I created the site....I do not mean that I physically created it. This started with a series of what i thought were good questions that my developer/designer (this is what they said they could do...design and develop the site i wanted) asked me to provide answers for. They were very detailed questions which I supplied detailed answers. In fact they both made comments that I did a very good job helping them paint the picture for the site because of my detailed answers.

I certainly don not resist suggestions ...I simply do not get them! I wish i had the screen shots i initially received from them.... it was not even close to what i would deem acceptable. I am a very easy person to deal with, patient, and understanding. With that being said when i asked them to please review the work that had completed and to see if this is really something that they thought would be appealing to our targeted audience. The response i got was ..."what else can I do to it?" I didnt know what else to do with it....I was asking for suggestions...in reality giving them the opportunity to up-sale their service. After several days of getting the answer...I dont know what to do" i dedicated some time to researching what others had done to appeal to similar audiences and came up with the look, feel, functionality of the site in its current state. I would have LOVED for them to offer any suggestions.

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

Steve,

When I say that I created the site....I do not mean that I physically created it. This started with a series of what i thought were good questions that my developer/designer (this is what they said they could do...design and develop the site i wanted) asked me to provide answers for. They were very detailed questions which I supplied detailed answers. In fact they both made comments that I did a very good job helping them paint the picture for the site because of my detailed answers.

I certainly don not resist suggestions ...I simply do not get them! I wish i had the screen shots i initially received from them.... it was not even close to what i would deem acceptable. I am a very easy person to deal with, patient, and understanding. With that being said when i asked them to please review the work that had completed and to see if this is really something that they thought would be appealing to our targeted audience. The response i got was ..."what else can I do to it?" I didnt know what else to do with it....I was asking for suggestions...in reality giving them the opportunity to up-sale their service. After several days of getting the answer...I dont know what to do" i dedicated some time to researching what others had done to appeal to similar audiences and came up with the look, feel, functionality of the site in its current state. I would have LOVED for them to offer any suggestions.

Awww, man. I hate it as a professional that you've run across and had the misfortune to hire misfits like that. Did you happen to ask them WHY they felt the design they gave you would appeal to your demographic?

I'm sorry I don't have any other advice for you. It disturbs me that you're going to have to throw good money after bad to get back on track. My designer and I both cringe when we're told that we're being hired to fix someone else's mistakes or incompetence. It makes our task just that much more difficult.

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lordhyde

13 years ago

I tell my costumers that I'm a creative/marketer.

And as that I advice them what to do.

But it all depends of the work and the payment.

If it's a high dollar client, I'll come up with good strategies and out-of-the-box ideas for him, but if it's a fiverr client, I'll just do exactly what I was hired for and nothing more. Well.. just a bit more... always ;-) you never know when a $5 client can become a $10,000 client

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gilmore 13 years ago

There are many different type of web designers. They use different techniques, are different creatively, have different outlooks on what is expected of them, and have different work ethics.
Most people that want a website do not really know what they want. An important part of a designer's job is to asks the correct questions and provides the correct guidance, so that both parties become clear of what is expected, before the designing work even starts.

In your situation though you know exactly what you want. It is my opinion that you then pay someone to implement what you tell them to implement and you should get what you asked and paid for.

But you are in the current situation. So how do you get what you want?
A suggestion: Why don't you start another thread with the link to your current site, and an explanation of what you exactly want. Ask for suggestions on how it can be done and see what happens. You never know, you might be amazed.

Good luck.
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365Daysof

13 years ago

My title is: Passion Enabler. I help people take on the challenges they face when pursuing their passion - as a hobby, as a personal need, or as a business.

When people ask what that includes, I say "Web Development Specializing in Making a Profit Through CMS, e-Commerce and Community Design, working closely with my clients."

That said, I do like to work closely with my clients, but it's important I be able to do my job. I have a clean aesthetic, and a lot of online experience. Micromanaging me will get you crap I'm not willing to put into my portfolio, and it's not worth my time to be pestered about every little thing.

When it comes to working with people, have opinions, make the outcome that you need very clear, then let the EXPERTS you hire be experts, and do what you are good at.

*smiles*

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goin4it

13 years ago

@Istvan Horvath

If you are suggesting to your readers that they should "dump" clients like me you are setting them up for failure in the ever so competitive arena of web design. There is a huge difference between knowing what I want and thinking that I can do your job. If I knew how to do it then I obviously would not need you. You use the term "micromanaging" as a substitute for expecting a quality, well thought out design. Maybe the title of your next book should be "How to make as much money as possible, doing the least amount of work as possible, forgetting about the satisfaction of your clients because after all.... they are DUMB....and by all means if your client knows what he wants dump him immediately " kind of lenghty for a title but a good fit for the content your suggesting...

Feel free to use this title free of charge!

It was made very clear that the majority of our users would be women. I got a design for approval with dark colors/theme, cheap looking graphics, and what i would call hard edge lines around the content boxes and such. I simply suggested that approaching women viewers we should have light comforting and trustworthy colors/theme, opposed to generic graphics....lets use a couple photos that would appeal to any viewer as well as a few that contained racially, gender, diverse themes, also a few that contained good looking men that were easy on the eyes for our primarily female audience. This is what I came up through my research on designing a site to appeal to this particular viewing audience , after being disappointed with the initial designs. Is this right? I dont know....this is the best I could come up with and it was and is better than the designs that showed zero evidence of actually taking the time to research how to appeal to our targeted consumer. I did this because I had to not because I wanted to ...and I surely didn't have the time to do it.

So back to my initial question shouldn't this be the job of the developer? Or should i expect to pay someone thousands of dollars to contribute nothing more than the installing and configuring of modules?

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

@Istvan Horvath

<snip> <snip>

Damn. I'm going to steer well clear of that one.

It was made very clear that the majority of our users would be women. I got a design for approval with dark colors/theme, cheap looking graphics, and what i would call hard edge lines around the content boxes and such. I simply suggested that approaching women viewers we should have light comforting and trustworthy colors/theme, opposed to generic graphics....lets use a couple photos that would appeal to any viewer as well as a few that contained racially, gender, diverse themes, also a few that contained good looking men that were easy on the eyes for our primarily female audience. This is what I came up through my research on designing a site to appeal to this particular viewing audience , after being disappointed with the initial designs. Is this right? I dont know....this is the best I could come up with and it was and is better than the designs that showed zero evidence of actually taking the time to research how to appeal to our targeted consumer.

What you outline is what a site (generally) targeted at a female demographic should (generally) look like. From this description, as opposed to your earlier ones, I see that you appear to communicate reasonably well what it is you want - you've just hired incompetent people to put in on-screen.

I did this because I had to not because I wanted to ...and I surely didn't have the time to do it.

That's not your job anyway.

So back to my initial question shouldn't this be the job of the developer? Or should i expect to pay someone thousands of dollars to contribute nothing more than the installing and configuring of modules?

Yes it very much is their job, if they've billed themselves as designer/developers. However, see my earlier remark. It may be that you have to find a good designer that's familiar with and has worked with sites catering to women, then find a developer that can implement the design.

What YOUR job is, as the client, is to seek out designers/developers that can relate to your vision for the site, refine it with you, then implement it.

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gilmore

13 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

Yes it very much is their job, if they've billed themselves as designer/developers. However, see my earlier remark. It may be that you have to find a good designer that's familiar with and has worked with sites catering to women, then find a developer that can implement the design.

What YOUR job is, as the client, is to seek out designers/developers that can relate to your vision for the site, refine it with you, then implement it.

I am not as experience as you guys and am only starting out. According to my understanding of delivering a service, especially web designing, is to implement the customers vision (especially when they have a clear vision). So Steve, I totally agree with you.

I also feel that, when a client doesn't have a clear vision, that an important part of a designers job is to help them to get to that vision. How will you know what the client want or need?

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gilmore

13 years ago

I mean.... How will you know what the client's needs are otherwise?

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365Daysof

13 years ago

@gilmore, take a look at the classified here on the WF. You'll see quite a few sites for sale with no input from the potential client.

Those people are designer/developers, too.

Not every client WANTS to have a say, oddly enough, and I steer away from those who want to trow money at a situation until it's completed. It's not my working style, but it is for some.

That's one reason to carefully choose who you are going to work with. There are all levels of service and personality and experience and price points. All those factors should come together to make your choice.

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gilmore 13 years ago

@365Daysof: Hi Heather. Thanks for your input. I see what you mean. It is as you say: "there are all levels of service.... ", and that there are markets for all. I guess it is for each person to decide which type of market he/she wants to focus on.
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goin4it

13 years ago

Originally Posted by 365Daysof

@gilmore, take a look at the classified here on the WF. You'll see quite a few sites for sale with no input from the potential client.

Those people are designer/developers, too.

Not every client WANTS to have a say, oddly enough, and I steer away from those who want to trow money at a situation until it's completed. It's not my working style, but it is for some.

That's one reason to carefully choose who you are going to work with. There are all levels of service and personality and experience and price points. All those factors should come together to make your choice.

Why is this? How do you operate under these terms? The only way I can see this being an effective business strategy is if you had endless Templates at your disposal and can somewhat customize them to your customers needs. Steer away from someone who wants to throw money at a situation until it complete? This is just another way to market towards those who would be willing to buy a template design.

Sometimes you just have to put yourself in the clients shoes. Why would I want to put thousands of dollars into something to where my input or opinions are not welcome! I find it really odd that you intentionally steer clear of additional money. I would take this as you are selling your designs on quantity. This would not be something that I would look for in a designer,but oddly enough, some do.

If I were just starting out in development/design I would be cautious of this advice. I would think you would want to build a partnership with your client in this process allowing them to provide input and ultimately giving them control of their money insuring that it is well spent with you. I think the best thing to do is to build a profile showing that you are able to meet your customers demands and provide a product that you successfully completed with your partner/client.

What do I know .... I am just a consumer

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365Daysof

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

Why is this? How do you operate under these terms? The only way I can see this being an effective business strategy is if you had endless Templates at your disposal and can somewhat customize them to your customers needs. Steer away from someone who wants to throw money at a situation until it complete? This is just another way to market towards those who would be willing to buy a template design.

I think perhaps you mis-read my statement. I said that i steer away from those who believe that throwing money at a web developer is a substitute for actually working with the developer.

I choose not to work with business owners who do not give me their expertise in their business. It's a bad recipe, IMO.

Sometimes you just have to put yourself in the clients shoes. Why would I want to put thousands of dollars into something to where my input or opinions are not welcome!

Again, I suggest that you mis-read me. I actively communicate with my clients and turn away clients who do not communicate well.

I find it really odd that you intentionally steer clear of additional money. I would take this as you are selling your designs on quantity. This would not be something that I would look for in a designer,but oddly enough, some do.

LOL! I don't steer away from additional money. I focus on quality and communication. You can ask any of the warriors here on this forum I have already helped, spoken with and helped out on sites I didn't build.

*shrugs*

But that's neither here nor there.

I was pointing out that SOME consumers prefer to NOT have to think about design, or even the business, and therefore pay someone else to do that.

I'm not interested in that kind of work. I enjoy working with my clients and helping them build long-term success. Other people do this, and they do it sometimes very cheaply, sometimes for quite a bit of money. More power to them.

If I were just starting out in development/design I would be cautious of this advice.

I would be too, if anyone interpreted what I said the same way you did.

*smiles*

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djeby 13 years ago

Well, i consider myself to be a webdesigner first, and of course as a webdesigner you are also a consultant. Because you have to develop the site, and think about all the issues and problems that may occour.
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goin4it

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

@Istvan Horvath

If you are suggesting to your readers that they should "dump" clients like me you are setting them up for failure in the ever so competitive arena of web design. There is a huge difference between knowing what I want and thinking that I can do your job. If I knew how to do it then I obviously would not need you. You use the term "micromanaging" as a substitute for expecting a quality, well thought out design. Maybe the title of your next book should be "How to make as much money as possible, doing the least amount of work as possible, forgetting about the satisfaction of your clients because after all.... they are DUMB....and by all means if your client knows what he wants dump him immediately " kind of lenghty for a title but a good fit for the content your suggesting...

Feel free to use this title free of charge!

It was made very clear that the majority of our users would be women. I got a design for approval with dark colors/theme, cheap looking graphics, and what i would call hard edge lines around the content boxes and such. I simply suggested that approaching women viewers we should have light comforting and trustworthy colors/theme, opposed to generic graphics....lets use a couple photos that would appeal to any viewer as well as a few that contained racially, gender, diverse themes, also a few that contained good looking men that were easy on the eyes for our primarily female audience. This is what I came up through my research on designing a site to appeal to this particular viewing audience , after being disappointed with the initial designs. Is this right? I dont know....this is the best I could come up with and it was and is better than the designs that showed zero evidence of actually taking the time to research how to appeal to our targeted consumer. I did this because I had to not because I wanted to ...and I surely didn't have the time to do it.

So back to my initial question shouldn't this be the job of the developer? Or should i expect to pay someone thousands of dollars to contribute nothing more than the installing and configuring of modules?

This was very unprofessional and uncharacteristic of me. I apologize for the above comments.... I not only communicated with these people via email but on the phone and in person as well. I did the best that I could to let them do their job but at the point that they were not getting it done i then stepped in. Humility is one of the strongest traits that I posses as a young entrepreneur and you were painting an image of me in the exact opposite light. I don't know it all and will be the first to admit that. With that being said I felt that my money was not being reflected in the design, Thats when I stepped in and made the suggestions to the best of my ability which I will have to say was better than theirs

By the way just to show what kind of a person i really am .....both of these designers/developers were not only paid in full for their first attempts in the design and development of my site but they were also paid hourly for their time in making the changes they did per my instruction.

Again I apologize for my rude comments and appreciate you taking the time to comment on this thread!

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365Daysof

13 years ago

Originally Posted by goin4it

So back to my initial question shouldn't this be the job of the developer? Or should i expect to pay someone thousands of dollars to contribute nothing more than the installing and configuring of modules?

Well, I think it depends on the developer you hire.

I actually make it very clear from day 1 that I expect close communication and working together. I won't work with a client I do not communicate with from day one.

I ask about their target market, plans for growth and future marketing, and I look for ways I can steer them in the right direction.

However, if you hire someone who presents themselves differently, it makes sense to expect a different scenario.

One of my partners and I semi-seriously call ourselves business therapists, since we help so many clients get over the trauma of working with other developers (both above and below our pay grades).

It's sad this has to happen.

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Istvan Horvath

13 years ago

No problem... I really didn't want to offend you.

I hope your communication with your contractors (designers and/or developers) is more straightforward than how this thread started. It began with a hypothetical (what if...) question - to arrive many posts later to the real issue: you were unfortunate to meet some unprofessional online service providers. I am sorry to hear that.

Not in that business anymore... but I used to make only custom site and custom WP theme design. The number of repeat customers and "word-of-mouth" referrals would make me to believe they were happy with my work. However, it did happen that I "kicked out" a customer for unrealistic demands and 'micromanaging' my work.

And some practical advice, if I may:
- never pay the full price until you are completely happy (I used to ask 50%-50%)
- agree upfront how many revisions are included in the price agreed
- try to get a price per job not by hours...

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