Do You Use NLP in your salesletters?

[AndrewStark]

Hi

Just wondering if anyone sets out to use any NLP in their salesletters?

Watching the latest sales video's I can see some marketers using it very effectively, but not sure if works as well in written format?

Please let me know your opinion.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

I use all the letters.

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by AndrewStark

Hi

Just wondering if anyone sets out to use any NLP in their salesletters?

Watching the latest sales video's I can see some marketers using it very effectively, but not sure if works as well in written format?

Please let me know your opinion.

Andrew,

Some copywriters use NLP as a way to help position themselves.

Truth is, much of NLP cannot be transferred to a written format. And that which can is simply a different way of stating the same persuasion triggers that direct response marketers have known and used for years.

Alex

[rickstooker]

Some NLP techniques work well in print. Others don't.

The cheap, obvious and most abused technique is
embedded commands. AVOID THEM!

NLP can add to traditional copywriting techniques.
It doesn't replace them.

Rick

[Loren Woirhaye]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

I use all the letters.

Rockin'

###

Yes, I use knowledge of persuasive psychology and language patterns
in copy- some of which I've leaned from sources associated with the
"NLP" concept.

Some of what is taught as NLP selling skills were around, and taught,
before the codification of NLP as a method. Thus you can pick up
the same stuff from sources not associated with the Bandler--Grinder
school whatsoever - some of which developed independently of or
tangentally to NLP and some of which predate it.

[Paul Hancox]

Hi Andrew

It depends which NLP techniques you're referring to. I think reframing is a particularly powerful one, which I use a lot. (I recommend a book called Mind Lines if you want to get into reframing).

Now as for embedded commands, they can be used... but quite frankly, if you don't get them right, they can just look and sound clumsy. If someone can recognize them as embedded commands, then by definition, they're not embedded... so it's better to avoid them unless you really know what you're doing with them.

I did teach people how to carefully use them in my copywriting videos, but I'm taking a more cautious approach in my coaching, to make sure they're only used when they're truly embedded. If you can see 'em, they ain't embedded.

Instead, I prefer to implant thoughts and suggestions using more "covert" techniques than mere embedded commands

Anyway, the way I see it is... NLP is great for giving you a framework for realizing how language affects a person's thinking... but as Alex said, some of it is less useful in copy - like getting people to turn up and down the brightness of their internal images, I don't know many readers are going to want to do this.

[AndrewStark]

Thanks guys,

Your replies have been along the lines of what I was thinking, written copy is more about influence, and you need to have the interactivity of video / live audience to really work NLP properly.

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by AndrewStark

Thanks guys,

Your replies have been along the lines of what I was thinking, written copy is more about influence, and you need to have the interactivity of video / live audience to really work NLP properly.

I use many of the same words used by Ernest Hemingway and Jack Kerouac.

The psychological impact is staggering.

[eQuus]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I use many of the same words used by Ernest Hemingway and Jack Kerouac.

The psychological impact is staggering.

I didn't know Hemingway and Kerouac were copywriters! Are you saying that Hemingway wrote bad Hemingway before he became THE Hemingway?

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by eQuus

I didn't know Hemingway and Kerouac were copywriters! Are you saying that Hemingway wrote bad Hemingway before he became THE Hemingway?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

You are very astute.

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Truth is, much of NLP cannot be transferred to a written format. And that which can is simply a different way of stating the same persuasion triggers that direct response marketers have known and used for years.

Alex

I just snorted coffee up my nose.

Damm.

All the A list copywriters using NLP are in for a surprise.

Yeah, NLP doesn't work in sales letters.

Everyone move on here. Nothing to see.

[DougBarger]

I'll reserve my greater response to that for those of you who order my services.

[RickDuris]

While I am unable to go into detail, if both words and emotions are involved, NLP strategies and techniques can be harnessed for the benefit of everyone.

Let me ask you a simple question. Who here has not been moved to the point of buying a product or service based upon a simple compelling story?

That's an example of NLP. At least a small, small piece of NLP.

The NLP well runs really deep. Again, I can't go into details.

It's definitely a rabbit hole and if you follow it, if you learn it, you will be a better copywriter for it.

- Rick Duris

[5Tool]

Harlan knows his stuff on NLP- good man to listen to. Some general principles of NLP can be used successfully. I think though that the type of NLP in print which has been claimed to result in big gains in conversion rates (like Maria Vardonis book suggests-hope I spelled her name correctly) has not been proven statistically in any studies as far as I know (someone let me know if that's incorrect).

Something along the lines of "As you read each word of this article.." can't hurt but I wouldn't expect any magic out of it. As Harlan said, it really loses something in the translation to print.

[5Tool]

My bad- Maria Vellosa is the website NLP guru.

I apologize for using the wrong name!!!

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by 5Tool

My bad- Maria Vellosa is the website NLP guru.

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

Yep. She's the guru alright....

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

As you imagine yourself building mental anchors with clients... creating vivid rapport that lights up the sky of their imagination like fireworks... effortlessly reeling them in, as they're on the edge of their seat panting with desire... feeling a tingling joyous sense of accomplishment within yourself, mirrored by the avid enthusiasm of their wallets opening... as you ponder the near-hypnotic storytelling elicitation and modification of values that Bandler and Grinder modeled from Ericksonian hypnosis, these ideas effortlessly slipping into the folds of your mind to be woven into the depths of their personality...

... I should tell you that I don't use any of that stuff myself.

[Paul Hancox]

I can tell

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Enthusiastic

As you imagine yourself building mental anchors with clients... creating vivid rapport that lights up the sky of their imagination like fireworks... effortlessly reeling them in, as they're on the edge of their seat panting with desire... feeling a tingling joyous sense of accomplishment within yourself, mirrored by the avid enthusiasm of their wallets opening... as you ponder the near-hypnotic storytelling elicitation and modification of values that Bandler and Grinder modeled from Ericksonian hypnosis, these ideas effortlessly slipping into the folds of your mind to be woven into the depths of their personality...

... I should tell you that I don't use any of that stuff myself.

This is a perfect example of why NLP does not readily translate to the written word.

If you don't understand why, go to the beginning of the line.

This is the kind of amateurish crap people who have learned NLP think works in print.

It doesn't.

It's manipulative and just plain dumb.

Who can figure out why?

Where's Zapeso when you need her?

[Paul Hancox]

Originally Posted by Harlan

If you don't understand why, go to the beginning of the line.

I'm swiping that ambiguity

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

Originally Posted by Harlan

It's manipulative and just plain dumb.

It was also supposed to be a parody, Harlan.

I've read most of the classic NLP texts and I have a tremendous amount of respect for their insights into human nature, both for self-development and for worldly success. I've also seen some really crappy attempts from lousy writers to use NLP as a cheap ticket to manipulation. That crap was what I tried to mock in my post.

* No NLP techniques were harmed (or even used) in the writing of this disclaimer.

[RickDuris]

Hi all,

Years ago, there was an very well known NLP trainer who scared the bejeezus out of me.

This was back in the late 80's. I spent two months with him, solid. Day and night, hours on end.

It left an indelible impression on me.

But at the end of that "internship," he put something into my head that has stuck with me to this day.

While I don't remember it verbatim, what he basically said was this:

What I have shared with you is like a treasure chest, filled with gold, and pearls, and jewels.

You can do what you want with these techniques.

But, you must be ever so careful. Because if you ever use what I have taught you for evil, or to inflict pain or ill, or even remotely manipulative reasons, that treasure chest will slam shut on you and you'll have access to it no more.

That scared me. I got his point. Oh man, did I get his point.

Ever since then, I NEVER use NLP deliberately. Because that to me, in and of itself, I consider that extremely manipulative. But it's principles, while I do not think anything about them consciously, I am sure I use them everyday, without knowing. In a helpful, beneficial way to others.

NLP is NOT like swiping copy, cutting and pasting and ladling your copy with embedded commands. Sheesh.

That's manipulative and you should it avoid at all costs.

That will cause harm, ill will and most likely buyer's remorse. People will feel cheated and manipulated. Not good.

To use NLP, you MUST, MUST, MUST be trained by a compassionate, caring, ultra-qualified trainer, one who only has YOUR highest interest at heart. Robert Dilts comes to mind, although I have not talked to him in years and don't even know how he's doing.

I guess what I'm saying is this: Once you learn NLP deeply, so that it becomes a part of you, you will be able to communicate more effectively as a copywriter.

NLP will teach you how to be surgeon scalpel-like precise with your language, and once it is integrated into your neurology, like many ultra-qualified trainers can do with you and for you, you will do well with it.

- Rick Duris

PS: You see, I have a profound respect for Richard Bandler and John Grinder and others who have added to the NLP body of work.

In my hands at least, I know I've saved lives. Literally. People such as the homeless, battered and abused wives, as well as people with HIV/AIDS.

That last one is a stretch probably, I know, so let me share with you how I did it so you can see I am not full of BS.

I would get the person with HIV/AIDS to raise their t-cell counts.

When a person has HIV/AIDS, the most important thing is monitoring their T-cell counts.

Like in direct marketing, I would literally have them go in for a test. And then we would have a session or two or three or four together. And then they'd go in for another test. Amazingly they'd find their T-cells had increased substantially.

They were elated and very thankful. I would leave the clinic on a cloud. I credit NLP.

And here's how I did that T-cell thing. This was back in the 80's and I wanted to put my NLP skills to the test. This was all pro bono work. I did a study, (to be technical about this, in NLP they call it "modeling" and it's a very precise series of processes,) of AIDS long term survivors.

(Hint to copywriters: "Modeling" is a very effective way of getting to know who exactly your customers are. Google the term. I have not, but I am probably sure somebody has described as a basic process for all as a glimpse.)

One of the things I discovered was long term survivors with AIDS consistently would, every morning, would treat their body like an instrument. Like a violin. Ever analyzing every aspect of their body. Always making sure, string by string, it was ever in tune.

Even a small blemish would be a cause of concern, because it could be the onset of Kaposi's sarcoma. A type of common skin tumor with HIV/AIDS folks.

There were other things the long term survivors did obviously and I started to run small group trainings at the alternative health clinic I was at about these ideas. (You may ask why I don't do it today, and that's whole 'nother story.)

NLP can change lives. And I seriously kneel at the feet of the NLP gods. Ever grateful for the opportunity learn and study under them.

And I never, ever want that treasure chest to close on me. It would break my heart.

[Ken_Caudill]

Paint 'em a picture. Tell 'em a story.

What's new?

[RickDuris]

Hi Ken_Caudill,

You asked, and I'm a tellin'.

If you don't understand, implicitly or at best unconsciously know how to apply things like VAKOG or the meta-model or meta-programs in your copywriting work, respectfully--as much, and as powerfully, as I can relay---YOU SIR, unfortunately, are leaving major money on the table--for you AND your Clients.

NLP is definitely NOT just about telling stories. Oh my goodness.

And if you think, for a second, you can just apply off Googling the terms--well, good luck with that. Ain't gonna happen.

It WILL come off as manipulative and disrespectful. There will be buyer's remorse.

No offense, harm or disrespect intended, Ken. AT ALL. Only the best of intentions. I appreciate all your previous posts.

Again, you asked. And I'm sharing.

I am not in a position to share details. I would do NLP a deep disservice and competent NLP trainers out there a tremendous injustice.

If you want to know more, book yourself into an intensive course with an ultra-qualified trainer. Hopefully, one trained by Richard Bandler. Or maybe Richard himself.

Yeah, it will set you back between $2K and $20K. Worth every single penny.

But it will ROCK your world.

It will be the best money you ever spent as a copywriter.

You'll see.

Your copywriting WORLD will shift once you truly, implicitly, unconsciously understand NLP, once you're trained by someone who is NOT an NLP hack, poser or wannabe.

But be careful--there are loads of them out there.

But please, please, please, only use what you learn to the benefit all you touch with your words.

That's all I ask.

Sincerely,

- Rick Duris

PS: That's a great question, nonetheless.

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Hi Ken_Caudill,

You asked, and I'm a tellin'.

If you don't understand, implicitly or at best unconsciously know how to apply things like VAKOG or the meta-model or meta-programs in your copywriting work, respectfully--as much, and as powerfully, as I can relay---YOU SIR, unfortunately, are leaving major money on the table--for you AND your Clients.

NLP is definitely NOT just about telling stories. Oh my goodness.

And if you think, for a second, you can just apply off Googling the terms--well, good luck with that. Ain't gonna happen.

It WILL come off as manipulative and disrespectful. There will be buyer's remorse.

No offense, harm or disrespect intended, Ken. AT ALL. Only the best of intentions. I appreciate all your previous posts.

Again, you asked. And I'm sharing.

I am not in a position to share details. I would do NLP a deep disservice and competent NLP trainers out there a tremendous injustice.

If you want to know more, book yourself into an intensive course with an ultra-qualified trainer. Hopefully, one trained by Richard Bandler. Or maybe Richard himself.

Yeah, it will set you back between $2K and $20K. Worth every single penny.

But it will ROCK your world.

It will be the best money you ever spent as a copywriter.

You'll see.

Your copywriting WORLD will shift once you truly, implicitly, unconsciously understand NLP, once you're trained by someone who is NOT an NLP hack, poser or wannabe.

But be careful--there are loads of them out there.

But please, please, please, only use what you learn to the benefit all you touch with your words.

That's all I ask.

Sincerely,

- Rick Duris

PS: That's a great question, nonetheless.

To my way of thinking NLP is simply good writing, the use of suggestion, and literary devices such as rhythm, alliteration, and imagery.

Don't get me wrong, but it's mostly old wine in new bottles.

Tom Hopkins covered most of it 20 years ago in How to Master the Art of Selling.

There's nothing new about implicit commands in sales copy. There's nothing new about tag questions.

I read Lakin about a year ago. It's an interesting read. especially the idea of using negative implications to embed messages.

It still pretty much comes down to tell 'em a story, paint 'em a picture. Which, by the way, is the best selling advice I ever received.

[RickDuris]

Hi Ken_Caudill,

I appreciate and respect your opinion and I TRULY wish you ONLY the best. I disagree with passion. But that doesn't mean we can't be "Brothers in Arms."

If I had to add up my entire life, I have probably spent 2 full years in in NLP training. Probably spent the better part of $200K. Just training. Not including direct application.

I am (just) 52 years old. So when it comes to such matters, although I am NOT an NLP trainer and probably never will be, I have just a bit of insight and knowledge and training.

Again, I am daily in awe of what I have gleaned over the years.

Ken, if the copywriting and marketing gods and their works suffice for you--I would NOT deny their enduring value. I read them daily for inspiration and guidance.

But please, please do not minimalize NLP as it applies to copywriting. "Old wine is new bottles" or it's just about about "telling stories" is not accurate.

Sincerely and respectfully thank you,

- Rick Duris

[Paul Hancox]

Does a person need to spend $2K or $20K to use NLP in copywriting? I don't personally believe so.

If you want to know Richard Bandler's (the co-creator of NLP) view on NLP and sales, buy the book Persuasion Engineering. (He has no problem with using embedded commands in a sales context. If using embedded commands in sales and copywriting is manipulative, then that makes Richard Bandler manipulative.)

If you want to understand the incredibly valuable skill of reframing, buy Mind Lines by Michael Hall. This book is a bit technical, but it's worth the time and effort involved in mastering this skill. Personally, I think this skill of reframing is far more powerful than embedding commands and suggestions, anyway.

I have the greatest of respect for NLP practitioners. You really can change a person's world with NLP, and even heal their emotional and mental scars.

But copywriters write sales letters. That is THEIR job. If they're writing for a "Quit Smoking Fast" product, their role is not to actually heal the customer, but to put them on the path to buying the product.

I personally share Rick's helping philosophy... that we're ultimately seeking to help people... still, in the context of sales letters (which is what this thread is about), you can only go so far in helping them - because your remit as a copywriter is ultimately to guide them towards THE PRODUCT.

Your role is not to have them quit smoking from the sales letter ... although, you can certainly do that to move the process along!

So I think we are talking about two slightly different NLP needs. If you wish to use NLP for therapy and healing, then by all means spend $20k or more getting trained.

If you wish to use NLP techniques in copywriting, then I don't think $20k is necessary... buy a small number of key books, like the ones mentioned above.

It's like saying you can't become a good copywriter without attending a Carlton or a Makepeace or a Bencivenga seminar. Nonsense. Sure, you will learn a lot from those seminars, and deepen your knowledge and understanding, but you can become a good copywriter in other ways, too.

So if a person wants to use NLP techniques in copy, by all means do so... but I recommend going to the source, i.e. Richard Bandler. (As I said, Persuasion Engineering gives you many examples of embedded commands, eliciting values, handling objections etc in a sales context.) Mind Lines for reframing. Milton Erickson for language patterns.

If you want to use NLP for therapy and healing in a wider context, by all means go get your $20k training.

For copywriters, the important thing (to my mind) is COMMUNICATION MASTERY. Yes, NLP is a big part of that, but keep in mind it's also a BRAND. It has a (TM) symbol after it. (It also has many similarities to a franchise, with a licensing structure.)

Again, that is not to downplay the very big part NLP has played in our understanding of communication and the mind / body.

[RickDuris]

Hi Paul,

Thank you. I appreciate that encouragement.

I agree with your post 1000%, except for the sentence "If you wish to use NLP techniques in copywriting, then I don't think $20k is necessary... buy a small number of key books, like the ones mentioned above."

You CAN start with books, no doubt and I encourage.

But a book like "Persuasion Engineering" for example does not hold a candle to actually being at "Persuasion Engineering" Event conducted by Richard Bandler and John LaValle.

It literally warps your brain.

Afterwards, you're thinking in a different way. It shifts your reality.

Don't ask me why. I do not know.



I can’t put it into words, no words I have can describe. I am like a baby that throws a temper tantrum and cries incessantly, just because he needs his diapers changed. The baby does not have the words yet to explain.

I just do not have the words.

And yes, I attended Persuasion Engineering prior to writing copy for others, so maybe my experience is a bit "off,"

But I can tell you attending made me a better copywriter, no doubt.

Also, I DO think when you just read the words of a book like that, it DOES come off as rather technique-based and tactical.



In other words, it DOES sound manipulative.

It's not, by any means.

But the MINDSET, (unless you really study that book in light of attending the seminar and take it to heart,) which is the most important thing--you'll miss. Because anything you do, and I've seen it enough times in copy to know, looks manipulative.

And when I coach my private Clients and I see them do try to emulate manipulative stuff like that, I strike their words with a vengeance and admonish them harshly.

I do NOT condone. And I am vehement.

As a copywriter, you gotta "come from the heart" to do your BEST work.

And a seminar like "PE" and NLP in general helps you do that better, if you spend the time (and yes, a bit of money) when you are trained by someone who's really, really, really good at training you.

Thank you, Paul again,

- Rick Duris

PS: All your other comments are totally on point, I agree 1000%. Great post.

[RickDuris]

BizzyUK,

You are so totally off point by posting this rubbish. Other than this simple post, I refuse to explain. It's a waste of time.

You, BizzyUK clearly don't "get it."

You equate NLP with manipulation, cults, pseudoscience and quackery.

You ARE RIGHT--IF--somebody is an NLP hack, wannabe, cult leader or evil doer who wants to exploit people with malcontent or for their own gain.

NLP is a double-edged sword. It can help or harm. You decide.

This is my last comment on this. Your videos made my stomach turn and made me nauseous.

You've broken my day and it's just getting started.

Thank you so much, BizzyUK! But I will NOT be hitting the "Thanks!" button.

- Rick Duris


PS: I wish I had the time to prove me case, beyond question. If given the time, I would take EXTREME pleasure and pride. I'd get Richard himself on the phone for a conference call in a moment's notice and record for all to hear.

But if you're reading this, as a copywriter, if you insist on using tactical, manipulative measures, your sales will suffer.... your refunds will increase... and your chargebacks will mount.

People, your prospects, will see right through your sales letter or website when you try to manipulate. Just don't do it.

You have to "come from the heart."

[travlinguy]

I say to each his own. NLP is a powerful set of strategies that can accomplish many great things. I studied under a guy back in 02 who trained directly under Bandler and takes Bandler's $5000+ refresher every year. I witnessed miracles during the training.

At the training, after learning a particular technique each of the class members broke into groups or one-one-one for some of the lessons and practiced the method. For one of these techniques we learned how to eliminate allergies. My partner for the session was a 48 year-old woman who had an intolerance to milk and cheese since early childhood. She loved cheese but it made her bloated, gassy and nauseated. Sometimes it would even make her vomit.

When we were finished with a simple 10-minute technique it was time for dinner and most of the class went out for pizza where this gal ate her fill without even a hiccup. I still get email from her telling me what a miracle it was and that she's still chomping on cheese and drinking milk without any problems. I thought this was totally amazing but it was kid’s stuff by comparison to some of the truly remarkable things that were demonstrated during the two weeks of the training.

As for embedded commands in sales stuff... Tell Jay Abraham it's rude or manipulative. He'd been doing it for years. Like anything, you can take a sledgehammer approach or a more subtle approach. But, NLP is far more than using the 'ol story angle.

Having said that, I really don't care to try and convince anyone of anything when it comes to NLP or any other useful tool for writing or any other life issue. Maybe I'm like Forrest Gump, too dopey to know what doesn't work and what does. So I just go about my business believing until I have a good reason not to and getting great results. Peace.

[RickDuris]

Hi Travlinguy,

MOST, MOST, MOST of your words ring true.

But I take EXTREME exception to the one about Jay Abraham.

You are so far off base on that--it isn't funny.

I *KNOW*. Ask him. Call him. Jay Abraham: Optimal Marketing Strategies (If he'll even take your call, because it will probably cost you $5K.)

I worked with him "shoulder to shoulder" for a very long time. Him, on my business... and I on his.

I learned at his feet, copywriting and marketing-wise.

I assure you:

Jay has NEVER uttered a single deliberate "embedded command" in his entire life. HE CAN'T. Most people don't get this. He's NOT manipulative in any way--IN ANY SENSE OF THE WORD.

He is an "idiot savant" when it comes to copywriting.

He can't help but write the most amazing copy. When that man breathes... inhales or exhales... with each and every single breath... he dispenses the most compelling copy I have ever witnessed.

Oh my goodness--if you only knew.

That's why HE gets $50K a letter.

His secret?

HE speaks from the heart. His words flow from him like a Hawaiian waterfall. I recorded almost every conversation I have had with him. I am so lucky. With someone like Jay, someone is a fool not too.

The recordings, they're one of my precious and most inspiring treasures. And *I* have them, and no one else. They are personal.

And I am ever so grateful.

[Hint to copywriters: "Coming from the heart" is the secret to IMMORTAL copy.]

Especially when Jay is talking about or with common, everyday, ordinary struggling but ambitious entrepreneurs and business owners. Because THAT'S what he's ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY passionate about.

So when you say stuff like that about Jay, Travlinguy, you're flirting with, playing with entrepreneurial *FIRE*. Seriously. And I promise you, I am forwarding this post to Jay at my conclusion.

Maybe I am here because I am going to debunk the c*** what you see online. I don't know.

But I know this:

Be careful with what you read online. People like Jay Abraham and Richard Bandler do NOT deserve to be disrespected. It's insulting. Like a guard dog with teeth barred, and claws extended, I will refute, retaliate and defend--because I *KNOW* with certainty and with direct, personal, LONGSTANDING experience.

These people are good people, with good hearts--with ONLY a desire to SERVE. Because that's how they make THEIR money.

Granted, they have their talents, gifts and their genius and yes, maybe their "quirks." I can't deny and must agree. And you would be extremely wise to take advantage, nonetheless.

- Rick Duris

[travlinguy]

Rick...
I have all the respect in the world for Jay. I don't doubt that you know him, have worked with him, etc. I've read some of his stuff and it's been loaded with embedded commands. I have no issue with that. None at all. Getting started, I modeled some of his writing and got great results with it.

As far as I'm concerned, if the product is a good one, one that provides, to borrow a phrase Mark Victor Hanson loves to use, massive value, then it's my duty to use every effective technique in the world to sell it. That's all I'm saying.

Here's an example of what I mean. I laugh at people who promote conversational hypnosis techniques as a method for controling people or seducing women or whatever. No one can be controlled without first giving their permission. As you well know, it's called gaining rapport.

Yes, there are devious people who will lie, mislead and manipulate others, but you can certainly do that without using NLP. Nope, not dissin' Jay. Love the guy and know he's a straight shooter.

[RickDuris]

Hi Travlinguy,

Fortunately, fortunately, fortunately, you’ve “called off the dogs” in me.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, so much.

Whatever copy you are referring to in your post... and I do not know... I do not know what you’ve read... but it could have Jay’s signature attached--BUT Jay most likely never wrote it.

He DOES use ghost writers on occasion. (No, I won’t share who they are.)

Although I did not write it, review that recent piece of c*** somebody recently pointed out on the Warrior Forum on the program with him and Dan Kennedy.

Now THAT is an abomination.

That WAS affirmatively NOT Jay.

Now, Jay MAY have had input into conceptualizing or strategizing the program, but he absolutely didn’t write the copy.

I know his writing style, like I know my own.

I can spot it a mile away. Just like I can spot Bencivenga’s. Or Kennedy’s.

While I’ve never asked him, I sincerely believe Jay has never even heard of the word “embedded command”. And if he HAS heard the word, he couldn’t deliberately use one even if his life and his family’s lives depended on it.

His brain just DOESN’T work that way. Trust me on this.

Jay is a frickn’ genius. Nothing is premeditated. All, and I mean ALL, is spontaneous. I’m talking SPONTANEOUS... marketing... genius.

All comes from the heart.

I am not talking him up to sell the man. He’s way, way past that.

Let me put it to you this way: Jay couldn’t do the same thing twice the same way if his life depended on it.

In my life, I am surrounded by marketing, copwriting and now, Internet marketing geniuses. They humble me regularly. On occasion, I humble them with my copy.

But Jay, oh my goodness, unfortunately, unless you are on the inside, you just have no idea how entrepreneurially creative or copy-spontaneous he is.

But thank you, again Travlinguy. I was going to bail on the Warrior Forum after that last post, and go back into my “cave.”

I just do not have the temperment or time to debate or argue. I am too gentle a soul and good hearted. I am ultra-ultra-sensitive. It hurts me deeply to lash out on my end.

Travlinguy, you have kept me in the game and I thank you.

Sincerely,

- Rick Duris

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

Originally Posted by RickDuris

But thank you, again Travlinguy. I was going to bail on the Warrior Forum after that last post, and go back into my “cave.”

Rick, I'm glad you decided to stay. I always find something educational, inspiring, or thought provoking in your posts.

My goal was to try to point out that NLP is more than the cheesy manipulation some think it is. I wanted to point this out indirectly, in a disarmingly fun way. I thought it might work to do that by laughing at the way some people misuse their distorted caricature of valid techniques.

In person, I could have easily used body language and tone of voice to show that I was presenting a satire. In print, this turned out to be a mistake and the attempt totally flopped.

I meant no harm or disrespect to the real wisdom offered by NLP. But apparently I opened the door to hostility and condescension from people who saw the thread as a chance to exercise their own vendettas. I apologize for introducing that turn for the worst into the conversation. Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective and for sticking around here.

My bad, Rick, thanks for letting someone more level headed than me talk you into staying.

Chris

P.S. May I respectfully ask that debate about whether or not NLP is valid get moved to the "mind warriors" area. It seems a lot more appropriate for that forum, letting this one stay focused on exploration of salesmanship in print.

[CopyMonster]

YES absolutely with a big red cheese on top! I have a special script that I attach to web pages which tracks eye movement and facial responses of visitors. This then allows me to "customize" sales copy on the fly so that it better aligns with a visitor's modalities and how they process information. The results? Many times the conversion without it. So why not? Unbelievable? Yes.

By now (sorry couldn't help myself), if you're still reading this, you probably realize that I'm not serious about that script (although I'm sure Google is working on it).

Actually, whether you fall into the NLP camp or not isn't really important. What's ultimately important is your bottom line... ie. how persuasive your copy is. Copy is written to influence after all. You want prospects to read your copy. You want them to become engrossed about the product or service to the point they're so incredibly excited and eager they whip out their credit cards and buy, buy, buy. Now, as a copywriter it's your job to make that copy as persuasive as possible, isn't it? Wouldn't it then be your job to use whatever works, whether it's called the ABC technique or NLP? What would it mean to your results, your future wealth if you didn't?

Is NLP valid in the copywriting context? I would say yes. Maybe not in the "insert 3 embedded commands here, here and here and they will obey" case. There's a lot more to it.

As Paul said, reframing is a useful strategy. Understand it and you will be a better copywriter. If you know about state and how to elicit the right kinds of states in others your persuasion efforts will be that much more effective (ask anyone who's ever tried to suggest some lovin' with their angry lover).

Actually, anyone who's read the legendary Breakthrough Advertising by Gene Schwartz and knows a bit about NLP may have noticed similarities between chapter 10 with reframing and chapter 9 with the concept of pacing and leading. Now Gene Schwartz is recognised as one of the greats of copywriting, and although he never wrote copy using NLP (it hadn't even been developed when he wrote Breakthrough), his writings lend weight to at least some of the NLP concepts.

Remember, NLP at its heart is merely a framework or construct to model successful behavior. The NLP language patterns for persuasion and influence were largely modeled from Milton Ericsson. Ericsson wasn't a copywriter or salesman, but he was a skilled hypnotist who was able to facilitate remarkable changes in people using language amongst other tools. Some of its effect is lost in translation (to the printed word), but not all.

I'm no NLP expert, but in amongst this spluttering of a post are things that might be referred to in NLP as pattern interrupt, pacing, leading, reframe. As you read this were you under my slavish command? Not likely. Influenced? Now, that would be fun. Decide for yourself.

Peace

[RickDuris]

Hi Mr. Enthusiastic,

Thank you, Chris. I mean it.

I took NONE of what you previously said negatively. I understood implicitly what you were trying to accomplish. I found it actually pretty amusing. And was thinking of doing it myself, but I knew people would take it the wrong way.

Some people didn't appreciate, but no worries. You meant no harm.

Chris, I am going share something. It's personal.

First, let me ask you a question.

What do you think the most vital organ is in your body?

Here's the answer: Your brain.

Now what's the most next vital organ in your body?

Answer? Your spine.

And now what's the third most vital organ?

Your heart and your lungs.

Now, ask me how I know. Well, just think for a moment how much bone (i.e. protection) is wrapped around these particular organs.

The more bone, the more protection, the more important they are. God and/or evolution, made it this way (not me. )

Now having said that, what you need to know about me is this:

Metaphorically speaking, I have no bone covering my chest. No rib cage. No sternum. My heart is completely exposed. You can watch it, look at it beating.

It will feel kinda weird, but you can actually touch it with your finger.

I will let you. Go ahead.

My heart is completely vulnerable. Exposed. Revealed. It's how I live, it's how I write my copy and it's how I enjoy and live life and the people around me. It serves me.

My only protection I have discovered are two things:

The truth. And trust.

On the Internet neither are prevalent. And that's unfortunate for all. All suffer dearly with half-truths, lies and false claims.

Some things I see people say, I let go. They're wrong, I see it, I know it, they're false. It's admittedly their opinion or their business, it's wrong but they have a right to both. And I will not argue. But if asked, well that's a different situation.

But when it comes to things that matter, like peoples' reputations about people I trust? People, I know for a fact, to be true as an arrow?

Oh my goodness, I just can't let it go. I must come to their aid immediately and defend.

If that sounds arrogant or "righteous" in any way, I am sorry. I apologize in advance.

I am not that way. But if you touch my heart... with your finger, if you feel its beat, you will know, I speak the truth.

This is how I protect myself, my heart.

Thank you again, for your comments. They touched my heart.

- Rick Duris

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

Thanks, Rick. I believe I really do understand where you're coming from and hope we can have a relaxed chat over coffee some day.

Bizzy McD, I appreciate your courtesy to Rick's sensitivity about the links. Thanks for editing your post, I truly believe that's a classy act on your part. I repeat my suggestion that the "Mind warriors" forum here might be a swell place for a debate about NLP in general. If you start a thread there, I'll probably join it. I would love to see more from Alex, Loren, Paul, Charles, and bf68 about their understanding of NLP.

[RickDuris]

Hi BizzyUK,

I thank you. You have done a GOOD thing. A GREAT thing. I commend you for your unprompted actions.

It shows you are a good man, a considerate man. A man who has the best and highest of intentions.

I appreciate and respect immensely your opinions and have no need or desire to argue or debate. They are your opinions and if you also have facts--you have a right to them both. I want to learn.

No quibbling or quarrel at all from me. I respect them and agree with more than a few of them.

Thank you again.

We are "Brothers in Arms." You can consider me your friend.

Thank you again. You've made my day. And I *AM* hitting the "Thanks!" button this time.

I wish you much success in your business, and if I can help you in any way at all, please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,

- Rick Duris

[Alex Cohen]

I would love to see more from Alex, Loren, Paul, Charles, and bf68 about their understanding of NLP.

NLP in ad copy is about using language patterns (words) to influence people to buy.

Interestingly, you could take the word "NLP" out of the above sentence, and the sentence would still be true ...

Ad copy is about using language patterns (words) to influence people to buy.

Over the years, copywriters have developed numerous ways to effectively phrase a pitch. NLP in ad copy is simply another way to phrase.

Alex

[Harlan]

Couple of comments and I gotta run:

POINT ONE:

Persuasion Engineering (the book) is the transcript of a live seminar. Try that stuff in print and your customers will laugh at you.

You can not simply transfer NLP to print. Doesn't work.

It's been tested with no measurable effect.

NLP needs to be adapted to print.

POINT TWO:

Rick, Jay knows NLP quite well. You got to the Jay show very late but he's had lots of NLP people in his trainings.

Jay has reminded me of NLP concepts in copy time and again.

While I don't believe Jay deliberately uses embedded commands in print, I do believe he uses various structures of NLP in his copy and his presentations.

Peace.

Back to work.

[RickDuris]

Hi Harlan,

With deepest and sincerest respect, you and I should probably take this offline, if you want. Personally, I don't need to. But if you PM me, we'll set up a time to talk soon.

- Rick Duris

(PS: I'm learning folks, please be patient with me, I'm am really trying. I really, really am trying!

You know what I'm talking about, yes?

This forum stuff is ever SO not easy for me! Oh my goodness.

But I am learning and trying. And I'm still in the game, with the help of several of you. Thank you so much. Your words to me are so dear.

You all have not seen my best work yet... And those who are keeping me in the game, God bless you, sincerely.

I am noodling through some things, things percolating in the back of my brain, things that feel like an oncoming thunderstorm you can see in the distance... on how to contribute to us copywriters collectively--and you will be the benefactors. And maybe for us individually you all can make some money at it to boot.

It won't cost you a dime. But if you're an aspiring or competent copywriter, it's going to be fun and we're all going to learn! Just give me a few days to noodle through it. )


PPS: Harlan, I am serious. PM me and we'll set up a time soon.

[5Tool]

Rick- Your warm personality comes across so well in your posts-you make me want to invite you over for dinner with my family!

I'm sure your copywriting would reflect that- no doubt it's quality copy.

The point I was trying to make in a previous post here is that, while NLP is undoubtably a great persuasion tool (and much more), there are some out there stripping it down as a "trick shot" to use in print without a thorough understanding of the background information and training needed to employ it.

I hope you'll agree copywriters can't just throw some embedded commands in their sales letters and see their conversions skyrocket. Some are preying on the gullible to use a watered-down version because it sells their books.

[RickDuris]

Hi 5tool,

Aw shucks, 5tool! Your generous words made my morning as I woke up. And given your post, I would do the same with you in an instant.

As for your other comments, in your post, I agree 1000%. YES! YES! YES!

Your metaphor of "trick shot" is dead on accurate. [Made me giggle with delight.] There are so many ways I can appreciate and apply, my brain is exploding with creativity.

That is so good, 5tool. And so true.

I'll give you one idea, so I can get it off my chest, so I can get to work.

Harlem Globe Trotters. Now man, I adore those guys. My Dad took me to see a game with my Uncle Jim at the Ampitheater in Chicago back when I was about 10 years old.

They were amazing! Impressed me beyond belief. The experience? Etched, literally etched, into the back of my brain.

But I forever wondered, why, why, why, weren't they a part of the NBA, like a professional basketball team? THEY WERE SO GOOD!

Well today, I know. And if you've ever seen them yourself, you probably know too.

Your post reveals.

That said, have a GREAT day yourself, 5tool!

- Rick Duris

[LeivaMatias]

Holy snipes a post full of content and value.

Awesome stuff guys!

Its rare for me that is, to find a post that makes sense all the way down and has great content, instead of "me me me me me"....

-Matias

[wordwizard]

Originally Posted by LeivaMatias

Holy snipes a post full of content and value.

Awesome stuff guys!

Its rare for me that is, to find a post that makes sense all the way down and has great content, instead of "me me me me me"....

-Matias

Awesome indeed! I second that.

Thanks to all for generously sharing such great -- and detailed -- information, and debating the various angles of the how-to as well as the how-not-to and the possibilities. I'm feeling inspired.

Elisabeth

[Ken Strong]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

Wow, this where it all began.

Rick, you do not need to adapt to a forum. You do
not need to be on a forum.

You are an immensely passionate and intelligent guy. Your
opinion will end up a head against a brick wall.

To be honest I don't care what Jay does. I just know he
has an incredible mind for marketing.

Forums become vacuous proving grounds. Don't fall
victim to it.

Point all of that passion at something that will grow, not
a thread that will be 10 pages deep in a week.

In the end it's all for nothing

What in the world are you talking about? So a couple of people disagreed with him... he's not even the one who started the thread. Am I the only one who thinks this whole drama is kind of bizarre and over the top?

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

I do not know what is going on with Rick... mid-life crisis

Ken, what would this forum be without some kind of drama?

At least nobody got banned

Whatever it is, I'm against it! Groucho Marx

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

Rick's farewell post seemed very straightforward to me, even though I've never had any interaction with him outside this public forum.

Here's my interpretation.

Rick has found that to do his best work, he needs to be in a particular mindset & emotional state.

Isn't that true for most creative people? Some kind of attitude or feeling or ideas inspire your best work? It's not like the factory or the farm, where every hour of work is an interchangeable commodity.

Tony Robbins mentioned that he likes to watch comedy shows to get in a good mood before he goes on stage. From TheSmokingGun.com backstage section, you can see what gets some other artists ready for showtime... aromatherapy candles for the Chili Peppers, a "hippy style" massage for Peter Gabriel, a hamburger & hot dogs BBQ for Tom Petty, a driver who knows how to get LL Cool J to the local soul food cafe. (I'm not making this up!)

Some writers may find that a witty debate gets the blood pumping. Some might find that snarky cynicism is a good way to blow off steam. For Rick, the most productive state is one that includes open-hearted sincerity. From this delicate, emotionally vulnerable state, he can write in a way that builds rapport with prospects and inspires sales. That brings in money for him and his clients. It's a way Rick likes to live and do business. It works for him.

When he spends too much time on the forums here, he gets into a debating type of mindset. Or, he finds that confrontation (or even good-natured ribbing) blocks the innocent, open state of being through which his best ideas flow. For him, that takes him out of the feelings that inspire his best work.

Rick noticed that something interfered with his typical workflow. He figured out that something was the debate club vibe here. He decided to focus on his work rather than maintain his activity level here.

If I'm on the right track here... why would that ever be something to scornfully mock and dismiss?

If I'm not on the right track... what might I have realistically missed?

[MAJ]

55% of communication is body language/physiological.

38% is tonality.

7% are words.

Do NLP language patterns work as claimed? You do the math.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by MAJ

55% of communication is body language/physiological.

38% is tonality.

7% are words.

Do NLP language patterns work as claimed? You do the math.

And 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

; )

Of course, I'm just being a smart-ass.

Surely we can all agree that taking your reader on an emotional voyage with you can be accomplished through multiple means of expression.

Best,

Party Pooper