How To Measure Your Copywriting Skills

by Raydal
14 replies
If there's one thing that bugs me about the copywriting market
is the lack of a standard measurement that copywriters need to
meet in order to call themselves copywriters. Maybe it's the
scientific part of me that says you should be able to measure
just about anything.

Or maybe it's just the onslaught of new
"copywriters" I've seen online who I honestly don't think
deserve that title.Think about any other profession, even real
estate, you need to take license exams or complete some course
that allows you to attach a title to your name. But for
copywriting, you can take that name at will.

Now I'm not going to pretend as though I have no self-interest in requiring this
benchmark. I want the industry to recognize some standard and so
customers can cut through the confusion and know the quality of
a copywriter they are working with. But more so, I see the
industry being watered down by title bearers without much
qualification, if any at all.

Now my suggested requirement may go against the very spirit of
entrepreneurship. Most entrepreneurs think that formal education or any 'false
standard' should not define your success. In fact, most business
people will boast of their accomplishments without having attended college.

But this is not just about education although
it is. I would even go as far as suggesting a core set of books
that copywriters should at least read before they carry a member
card. Now for sure, different copywriters would want to include
different books, but so do different schools for the same course
and sometimes the same educational institution for the same
course.

Okay, so along with the basic course requirement how
would I measure a copywriter? I've seen many different elements
suggested and so I'll like to investigate each one at a time and
then suggest the benchmark I would use.

1. Conversion rates.
Some would suggest that a copywriter should be measured by the
conversion rate of the sales letters he or she writes. The only
problem here is that I've seen some high conversion rates
achieved by sloppy sales letters all because of the market these
letters targeted.

For example, markets that generally take
"advantage" of the natural "lust" of the human heart normally do
very well. This (for me) would include dating, gambling,
pornography, sex, 'get rich quick schemes' and items that border
on the illegal. If a copywriter does well at selling a drug
addict cocaine, that's nothing to cheer about.

2. Writing for famous clients.
Many copywriters present as proof for their
superior skills the fact that they have written for famous
gurus. While I cannot blame them for flying these flags, many
times these letters are used as a first draft and even chosen
because of the low fees. That's right. Top gurus often go the
low fee route and then adjust the copy themselves. So
copywriting clientele is no proof either.

3. Top Trainer or Coach.
If a copywriter was taught by a famous coach then it
could be assumed that this would recommend them to be gifted by
association. Who wouldn't want to be taught golf by Tiger Woods?
But again having an excellent teacher doesn't make you an
excellent student.

4. Length of time STUDYING copywriting.
In this business of writing if you simply study about writing
without actually practicing, then you'll remain a novice. You
have to be in the trenches fighting the battle with many scars
to prove your involvement and results to show for it. I'll
prefer a gauge of the number of pages of copy written than the
total length of time studying copywriting.

5. Amount of money earned.
"Million dollar Producer", "My Copy Sold Billions"-these
are the usual advertising blurbs we see advertising copywriting
services. Now I don't personally have anything against making a
lot of money, but this is often a gauge of one's business skills
and the market you write for rather than your raw abilities. In
other words, if you are 'lucky' enough to write for a big
company with huge mailings, then it's highly probable the profit
will reflect the company rather than the writer.

And one successful piece of copy written for the 'right' company can
earn you a "dollar amount title" that may not reflect your
skills or experience.

So what is the solution? How do you measure one copywriter against
the other? Can I write for the same product and same market and try
and beat the control of another writer to prove myself better? Maybe
this will be a fair measure, except that I should allow the control writer
to try and beat my new control. You must admit that time changes
markets and the same letter would get different results over
time-hence the need to have the old control writer update his
copy.

It seems that we are still at the very point we started,
but we have made some progress since we have eliminated some
options. I'm suggesting that your copywriting skills cannot be
measured by conversion rates, famous clients, gifted teacher,
length of time studying the discipline or money earned.

So what's left after this?

I would suggest that a copywriter should be measured by the
results of writing for a NEW product to be introduced to a market
where the need is NOT already very obvious and in which the product
creator had little or no previous credibility with the market. When such
a sales letter is judged against the result of other letters written for the
same market and product, then you have a safe standard to judge
your skills.

Now this may seem like a hypothetical situation
and indeed it may be. But introducing a new product to market is
where the tire really meets the road. Of course there is no 100%
new concept, but there was a time when the PC was "new". So were
the personal video recorder (VCR) and many other modern
inventions. And this is why I have such high respect for the
early copywriters who had no swipe files to refer to except
those filed between their ears.

So write me a new letter for a new product for a new market and if you
knock the ball out of the park I'll be in the stands cheering you on.
#copywriting #measure #skills
  • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
    Good post, Ray!

    Another thing about conversion rates is that they vary according to the price of the product.

    A product priced at $10,000 will definitely have less conversion rate than a product priced at $67. But that doesn't mean the copy used for $67 product is better than that used for the $10,000 product. You have to look at the Return on Investment here.

    In other words, if you are 'lucky' enough to write for a big company with huge mailings, then it's highly probable the profit will reflect the company rather than the writer.
    We copywriters like to talk about how our copy made $100k in 1 day and 1 million in 1 day.

    Sure, our copy helped the client in getting higher conversion rates and all, but I believe the credit goes to the product owner for maintaining a huge list of followers, setting up JV's and driving all the traffic to that page.

    ...because if he hadn't driven any traffic to that, our copy would've made $0 on the first day, no matter how good it is.



    Regards,
    Dean Dhuli.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli View Post

      Good post, Ray!

      We copywriters like to talk about how our copy made $100k in 1 day and 1 million in 1 day.

      Sure, our copy helped the client in getting higher conversion rates and all, but I believe the credit goes to the product owner for maintaining a huge list of followers, setting up JV's and driving all the traffic to that page.

      ...because if he hadn't driven any traffic to that, our copy would've made $0 on the first day, no matter how good it is.



      Regards,
      Dean Dhuli.
      It's OK to use those facts to promote your business the problem comes in when
      we as copywriters start to believe our own hype.

      I was looking at the work of a copywriter who wrote for one of the "gurus" and
      the quality of the sales letter was so mediocre I knew this guru was looking
      for a cheap price rather than quality.

      Yet the copywriter was boasting that "I wrote for ___"

      My point is that you should let the quality of your writing be the yardstick
      above who you wrote for.

      -Ray Edwards
      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author chrisc58
    Hi there,

    Sorry guys, I know this is the wrong place but I sort of need advice quickly if possible? How do I start my own thread?
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by chrisc58 View Post

      Hi there,

      Sorry guys, I know this is the wrong place but I sort of need advice quickly if possible? How do I start my own thread?
      Click the "NEW THREAD" button at the top left as soon as you enter
      the forum section.

      -Ray
      Signature
      The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

    If there's one thing that bugs me about the copywriting market
    is the lack of a standard measurement that copywriters need to
    meet in order to call themselves copywriters. Maybe it's the
    scientific part of me that says you should be able to measure
    just about anything.

    Or maybe it's just the onslaught of new
    "copywriters" I've seen online who I honestly don't think
    deserve that title.Think about any other profession, even real
    estate, you need to take license exams or complete some course
    that allows you to attach a title to your name. But for
    copywriting, you can take that name at will.

    Now I'm not going to pretend as though I have no self-interest in requiring this
    benchmark. I want the industry to recognize some standard and so
    customers can cut through the confusion and know the quality of
    a copywriter they are working with. But more so, I see the
    industry being watered down by title bearers without much
    qualification, if any at all.

    Now my suggested requirement may go against the very spirit of
    entrepreneurship. Most entrepreneurs think that formal education or any 'false
    standard' should not define your success. In fact, most business
    people will boast of their accomplishments without having attended college.

    But this is not just about education although
    it is. I would even go as far as suggesting a core set of books
    that copywriters should at least read before they carry a member
    card. Now for sure, different copywriters would want to include
    different books, but so do different schools for the same course
    and sometimes the same educational institution for the same
    course.

    Okay, so along with the basic course requirement how
    would I measure a copywriter? I've seen many different elements
    suggested and so I'll like to investigate each one at a time and
    then suggest the benchmark I would use.

    1. Conversion rates.
    Some would suggest that a copywriter should be measured by the
    conversion rate of the sales letters he or she writes. The only
    problem here is that I've seen some high conversion rates
    achieved by sloppy sales letters all because of the market these
    letters targeted.

    For example, markets that generally take
    "advantage" of the natural "lust" of the human heart normally do
    very well. This (for me) would include dating, gambling,
    pornography, sex, 'get rich quick schemes' and items that border
    on the illegal. If a copywriter does well at selling a drug
    addict cocaine, that's nothing to cheer about.

    2. Writing for famous clients.
    Many copywriters present as proof for their
    superior skills the fact that they have written for famous
    gurus. While I cannot blame them for flying these flags, many
    times these letters are used as a first draft and even chosen
    because of the low fees. That's right. Top gurus often go the
    low fee route and then adjust the copy themselves. So
    copywriting clientele is no proof either.

    3. Top Trainer or Coach.
    If a copywriter was taught by a famous coach then it
    could be assumed that this would recommend them to be gifted by
    association. Who wouldn't want to be taught golf by Tiger Woods?
    But again having an excellent teacher doesn't make you an
    excellent student.

    4. Length of time STUDYING copywriting.
    In this business of writing if you simply study about writing
    without actually practicing, then you'll remain a novice. You
    have to be in the trenches fighting the battle with many scars
    to prove your involvement and results to show for it. I'll
    prefer a gauge of the number of pages of copy written than the
    total length of time studying copywriting.

    5. Amount of money earned.
    "Million dollar Producer", "My Copy Sold Billions"-these
    are the usual advertising blurbs we see advertising copywriting
    services. Now I don't personally have anything against making a
    lot of money, but this is often a gauge of one's business skills
    and the market you write for rather than your raw abilities. In
    other words, if you are 'lucky' enough to write for a big
    company with huge mailings, then it's highly probable the profit
    will reflect the company rather than the writer.

    And one successful piece of copy written for the 'right' company can
    earn you a "dollar amount title" that may not reflect your
    skills or experience.

    So what is the solution? How do you measure one copywriter against
    the other? Can I write for the same product and same market and try
    and beat the control of another writer to prove myself better? Maybe
    this will be a fair measure, except that I should allow the control writer
    to try and beat my new control. You must admit that time changes
    markets and the same letter would get different results over
    time-hence the need to have the old control writer update his
    copy.

    It seems that we are still at the very point we started,
    but we have made some progress since we have eliminated some
    options. I'm suggesting that your copywriting skills cannot be
    measured by conversion rates, famous clients, gifted teacher,
    length of time studying the discipline or money earned.

    So what's left after this?

    I would suggest that a copywriter should be measured by the
    results of writing for a NEW product to be introduced to a market
    where the need is NOT already very obvious and in which the product
    creator had little or no previous credibility with the market. When such
    a sales letter is judged against the result of other letters written for the
    same market and product, then you have a safe standard to judge
    your skills.

    Now this may seem like a hypothetical situation
    and indeed it may be. But introducing a new product to market is
    where the tire really meets the road. Of course there is no 100%
    new concept, but there was a time when the PC was "new". So were
    the personal video recorder (VCR) and many other modern
    inventions. And this is why I have such high respect for the
    early copywriters who had no swipe files to refer to except
    those filed between their ears.

    So write me a new letter for a new product for a new market and if you
    knock the ball out of the park I'll be in the stands cheering you on.
    This should be rather obvious but the measure of a copywriter is the results he produces. Obviously this is relative. The best copywriter in the world is considered the best because his sales copy consistently brings in the best results regardless of the market he is in. This is why Bencivenga is #1, his salescopy kicks the ass of everyone elses salescopy.

    Why do you even care if one person is better than the other? Focus on yourself rather than other people. Your getting to much into politics and honestly, its a waste of time. Imagine if John Carlton spent all day trying to prove his ads brought in more money than the advertising agencies.

    Its just a waste of time, focus on yourself and improve the substance of what your selling rather than trying to prove that our lesser brethren are not the real deal. Honestly, its just a waste of time. You could be spending your money writing and making money instead of worrying about copy cubs, who cares, so long as your good thats all that matters. The market is self-governing, it will take care of itself.
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by maximus242 View Post

      This should be rather obvious but the measure of a copywriter is the results he produces. Obviously this is relative. The best copywriter in the world is considered the best because his sales copy consistently brings in the best results regardless of the market he is in. This is why Bencivenga is #1, his salescopy kicks the ass of everyone elses salescopy.

      Why do you even care if one person is better than the other? Focus on yourself rather than other people. Your getting to much into politics and honestly, its a waste of time. Imagine if John Carlton spent all day trying to prove his ads brought in more money than the advertising agencies.

      Its just a waste of time, focus on yourself and improve the substance of what your selling rather than trying to prove that our lesser brethren are not the real deal. Honestly, its just a waste of time. You could be spending your money writing and making money instead of worrying about copy cubs, who cares, so long as your good thats all that matters. The market is self-governing, it will take care of itself.
      You have contradicted your own self in your post.

      You have determined a measure for the best and even declared who was the best
      and yet you say I don't have a right to do the same??

      How do you know that I didn't make money from that post?

      I'm confused here ...

      -Ray Edwards
      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    What im saying is that in the general copywriting world the consensus is he who write the copy that converts the best relative to the market is the winner. Most top copywriters go head to head against each other in the direct marketing world -- he who comes out on top consistently over time is considered to be the best.

    What im saying is, yes, we can go into who is better all day long, but what really counts is just doing the best job you can and help as many people as you can.

    Copywriters are HIGHLY ego centric people, and I can say this as one of them. This is why copywritersboard got shut down, you had to many people going at each others throats. Direct marketing copywriting is about results, therefore he who consistently produces the best results should be considered the best.

    You asked how to determine who is the best in your post, then I answered the question. I just think its a waste of time to go back and forth about how to determine whos the best, etc. We could be sharing test results and giving critiques instead of people going back and forth about how to determine whos better than who.

    I think everyone has their own strengths and some copywriters are better at different times. You cant judge off of one piece. Theres people whove never written copy before who have come out with smash hits (joe sugarmans student the grapefruit guy for example). So its really just about the results because we are direct marketing copywriters.

    Anyways ive got a lot of work to do, alls im saying is that if your a good copywriter, your time is valuable and so dont put to much of it into this kind of stuff, your valuable and highly profitable time could be used refining your skill or writing. If your going to work, work on what makes you money.

    Remember Gary Halberts "Operation Money Suck" I live by that rule. Everything else gets ignored, bills can go unpaid, calls unanswered, ive done nothing but write salescopy for the past week and a half and ignored everything else... because at the end of the day... when the sun comes up, you'd better be running.

    I miss Gary, he had a way of putting things so perfectly.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Hi Ray,

    Yes, you are correct. New products are where the rubber meets the road. I had to hire a copywriter for a my project that the IM niche really hasn't seen, and she has absolutely no swipe file to cheat from. I do not envy her task at all.

    She's aggressive as a pit bull though, and jumped into it with enthusiasm. Would you want a copywriter without those personality traits?

    Maximus, Ray was a highly trained and experienced salesman before writing copy for others. Although I don't know him personally, it's probably in his nature now to focus on others. From what I've seen of him, he'll spend his time trying to help others, not degrade them.

    From the way you're writing, I'm assuming you're a copywriter too? You copywriters are a different breed. If you guys didn't have sales letters to write, you guys would probably be generals commanding armies and creating empires.

    Put two pit bulls together who don't know each other and they'll clash every time.

    Dave
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    I

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    • Profile picture of the author maximus242
      Ive got nothing against the guy, he seems like a very intelligent person who knows what hes doing. Im just trying to help him make more money by saying focus on what makes you maximum money for your time, which is copywriting.

      I get stuck in the same loop where I do meanile tasks that are $10 an hour things that I could pay someone else to do, when I should be doing the $100 an hour jobs. Its just business people trying to help each other out.

      I dont really see us fighting, were both working to raise others up with us.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
    I was looking at the work of a copywriter who wrote for one of the "gurus" and
    the quality of the sales letter was so mediocre I knew this guru was looking
    for a cheap price rather than quality.

    Yet the copywriter was boasting that "I wrote for ___"
    Why fault the guy for doing that? I believe he's just trying to gain some leverage by using the guru's name.

    People will normally expect guru clients to hire guru copywriters only.

    But what I've seen in the recent days is that most gurus are willing to go easy on the copy.

    With all those JV's they have in place... where all the selling work is done even before people get to the sales copy... the gurus know that they can make do with near-perfect or even less-than-perfect copy.

    For instance, I saw a "guru" post on this forum recently saying that he was looking for a copywriter and his budget was minimal at the time.

    Now, this guy makes high six-figures and does multiple product launches every year. It's hard to believe he doesn't have money for good copy. IMO, he was probably just looking for a first draft...or knows that even a near-perfect sales letter would do the job.



    Regards,
    Dean Dhuli.
    Compulsive Copywriter.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli View Post

      Why fault the guy for doing that? I believe he's just trying to gain some leverage by using the guru's name.
      Exactly. A smart copywriter is also a smart marketer. Use what advantages you have to ethically promote or market yourself.

      But what I've seen in the recent days is that most gurus are willing to go easy on the copy.

      With all those JV's they have in place... where all the selling work is done even before people get to the sales copy... the gurus know that they can make do with near-perfect or even less-than-perfect copy.

      In terms of less emphasis on copy lately... Blame marketers like John Reese and Jeff Walker. They demonstrated with Traffic Secrets 2 and Product Launch Formula 2 that if you have a hungry audience/market and make them a strong offer, then the sales copy drops to the 3rd most important factor.

      StomperNet gave away the farm to get people to sign up for a trial of their monthly print newsletter, so their salesletter was pretty much not a factor.

      Of course, the recent Reese Report package didn't have as strong an offer, was promoted right after Christmas, and didn't appear to do well. I don't know the exact stats but I do know that a 12 month payment plan was added a week after the launch which is usually an attempt to boost overall sales.

      For instance, I saw a "guru" post on this forum recently saying that he was looking for a copywriter and his budget was minimal at the time.

      Now, this guy makes high six-figures and does multiple product launches every year. It's hard to believe he doesn't have money for good copy. IMO, he was probably just looking for a first draft...or knows that even a near-perfect sales letter would do the job.
      Maybe. If it was recent, he may have spent a bunch of cash on Christmas gifts for family/friends/significant other. Sometimes cashflow dictates how much you can spend on anything.

      My 2 cents,

      Mike

      P.S. In terms of the OP... I believe it comes down to ROI. What kind of return on investment can you deliver for your clients. It's been my experience that outside of the IM niche, clients are often more concerned with recouping their investment and starting to make money from your copy rather than the exact conversion rate or total sales amount.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fender85
    I'm definitely no copywriting guru or anything, just have been studying it a lot more since I've somehow stumbled into writing copy lately . . . lol

    Anyway, my favorite thing to do (and in my opinion, a great measure of the strength of the copy) is to re-write copy for an existing product. I like it because there's no speculation - here's what your copy was doing, and here's how much better mine's doing. Makes it REALLY easy to justify what they paid you when you can show them exactly how much more money it's making them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sybiz
    I think the only real way to measure copywriting skills is to have multiple copywriters all writing copy for the same product and then see who does best. Just like in a typical sales company - how do you know who the best salespeople are? Generally it's the ones who sell the most and since they're all selling the same thing - you can directly compare them against each other.

    That's why certain copywriters are considered the best because they have consistently written copy for many companies that out-performs their existing copy time and time again.

    However to try and replicate this process of writing proven copy and requiring new copywriters to have to pass a test like this would be almost impossible. The main reason you become certified in most other professions is because knowledge is key. They give you exams, you pass, you become certified. But in copywriting knowledge isn't that important. It's the results that count. And if you can't write copy that gets results then no certification or amount of knowledge will matter.

    Just my opinion anyways.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    The only results a client can frame your copywriting skills and value
    in are your client's testimonials and a good portfolio.

    I think in terms of academic skills, it really doesn't matter. But if you
    NEEDED to have a qualification to do business as a copywriter, you
    actually can get qualifications that pertain directly to the trade.

    They are:

    1. Degree in sales and marketing
    2. Degree in advertising

    If you can sell, you can potentially write a great sales letter. If you
    understand advertising, you can write great ads.

    But as you touch on, even THAT means nothing in the "real" world.

    Experience is truly the bottom line, as that brings skills, a portfolio
    and satisfied clients who can testify your skills and justify your price.

    For the record, you cannot judge a copywriter on conversion
    rates because that depends on the product, the offer and the
    prospect, which the copywriter simply cannot control.

    And finally, the notion that you should be able to demonstrate that
    you can write copy in several markets is neither here nor there...

    ...because a guy who runs a landscape gardening company is more
    interested in a copywriter who solely focuses on writing copy for
    gardening products and services over a copywriter that has written
    car insurance, weight loss, diet, body building pills and career advice
    copy.
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