How much should I budget for a decent sales page?

[xDennis]

Hello,
I'm wanting to setup a decent sales copy page for a video ecourse that I want to put together. How much should I plan to pay someone for a good sales page for this.

Thanks!

Dennis

[Dean Dhuli]

Originally Posted by xDennis

Hello,
I'm wanting to setup a decent sales copy page for a video ecourse that I want to put together. How much should I plan to pay someone for a good sales page for this.

Thanks!

Dennis

Simple! It depends on two things:

a) how much you can afford to pay
b) how much you are willing to pay

[MontelloMarketing]

Also...

Pricepoint...
ROI...

I mean, I'd say a minimum of $5K for a decent page. But a lower pricepoint with no launch strategy might not support that.

Just don't go for the lowest price you find. And learn copy techniques. So at least if you get a bad page you can tweak it yourself to make it better.

[xDennis]

holy crap, $5k? Sheesh.. I'm a complete newb to IM, I didnt know it cost 5k to write a sales page.. man i guess i should just learn to do it myself , i can't afford that now

[maximus242]

Just write sales copy and then have John Carlton critique it for $700 or get Tim Castleman to critique it, I think he was gonna do a $97 WSO for copy critiques, hes great, highly recommend him. Shoot him a PM about critiques.

Honestly thats the best way I would do it. Buy Bob Sterlings book, go through the steps and have it critiqued. Learning it yourself is gonna take a LONG time.

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

Also...

Pricepoint...
ROI...

I mean, I'd say a minimum of $5K for a decent page. But a lower pricepoint with no launch strategy might not support that.

Just don't go for the lowest price you find. And learn copy techniques. So at least if you get a bad page you can tweak it yourself to make it better.

Hi Vin,

Now you have the guy suffering from copy "sticker shock".

It's interesting how many people do not really consider that they are
starting a business and must have some starting costs involved.

Also, I always say that a copywriters fee is an INVESTMENT because,
hopefully, this money would be recovered in sales.

I always say in my head, "My fee is $XX.XXX, and this clients will recover
this fee in XX sales of his product then my writing is FREE from there
onwards."

-Ray Edwards

[xDennis]

Ray,
I understand this is a business, and I am treating it as such. However, I did not realize it will cost $5k to write a one page sales add. I totally respect what you guys do, if it weren't for a good sales add I would not have bought a bunch of shotty info lol, however I still didnt realize the cost.. Something to plan for in the future I suppose.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by xDennis

Ray,
I understand this is a business, and I am treating it as such. However, I did not realize it will cost $5k to write a one page sales add. I totally respect what you guys do, if it weren't for a good sales add I would not have bought a bunch of shotty info lol, however I still didnt realize the cost.. Something to plan for in the future I suppose.

Dennis...

I believe you about respecting what we do. And I'm happy to hear that.

With all honesty, you can get a good $2,500 letter if you find the right guy. Of all my students I only have one that charges that little.

But remember... there are some copywriters who get 10 times that amount too. Obviously the idea of how much money you can actually make is important when deciding who to hire.

Like ray said... it's an investment. is $5K a lot when you end up making 100K? I don't think so. What about paying 15K and you bring home $130K? It's pretty cheap when you look at it that way.

But... if you're expecting to make 20K, it makes little sense to invest half of it in a copywriter.

$5K... $10K or even $15K is nothing as long as it makes enough sales to much more than cover the cost. It in effect cost you nothing and made you a lot.

But... spending $1,000 on a sales letter that makes you $0... that bargain just cost you a minimum of $1,000.

So basically... I'm going a long way around to say you were right. You should probably just learn copy and write your own letters.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by maximus242

Just write sales copy and then have John Carlton critique it for $700 or get Tim Castleman to critique it, I think he was gonna do a $97 WSO for copy critiques, hes great, highly recommend him. Shoot him a PM about critiques.

Honestly thats the best way I would do it. Buy Bob Sterlings book, go through the steps and have it critiqued. Learning it yourself is gonna take a LONG time.

You forgot a digit. I was just talking to someone who is close friends with Carlton and they said John charges $1800 for video critiques.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

You forgot a digit. I was just talking to someone who is close friends with Carlton and they said John charges $1800 for video critiques.

Yeah, when I saw that $700 price on Carlton's critiques it made me wonder why he was priced $300 under me.

[maximus242]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

You forgot a digit. I was just talking to someone who is close friends with Carlton and they said John charges $1800 for video critiques.

Wanna bet? https://m190.infusionsoft.com/cart/oneStepCheckout.jsp?

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by maximus242

Wanna bet? https://m190.infusionsoft.com/cart/oneStepCheckout.jsp?

sorry max but on my computer that link leads me straight to an empty cart with no mention of price or what you get for it.

[maximus242]

Try this John Carlton - Advertising Critiques and Reviews - Personalized Profit-Boosting Attention

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by maximus242

Wanna bet? https://m190.infusionsoft.com/cart/oneStepCheckout.jsp?

Well, my source works FOR John.

He brought it up as part of a seperate discussion about an upcoming site of Carlton's that involves video. He volunteered the information -- I didn't ask for it.

Either that site is outdated or you're getting a shorter critique IMHO.

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by xDennis

Ray,
I understand this is a business, and I am treating it as such. However, I did not realize it will cost $5k to write a one page sales add. I totally respect what you guys do, if it weren't for a good sales add I would not have bought a bunch of shotty info lol, however I still didnt realize the cost.. Something to plan for in the future I suppose.

Now you've added a new dimension. I didn't get the impression from your
question that you were looking for a one page letter. I thought you were
interested in a sales letter.

Sorry if I got the wrong impression.

-Ray Edwards

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by maximus242

Try this John Carlton - Advertising Critiques and Reviews - Personalized Profit-Boosting Attention

Why is he using a "who else" headline?

I see some active copywriters here say that's "out of style" to some past copy critiques here.

[Fender85]

Likely as a means of making themselves sound better. lol I mean seriously, how long as "How to" been used? And it still consistently performs . . . I just recently used a "Who Else" headline and it's doing very well.

To quote John Carlton, "Most advertisers get tired of their ad before their clients do." In other words, let the numbers tell you when an ad is tired . . .

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Fender85

Likely as a means of making themselves sound better. lol I mean seriously, how long as "How to" been used? And it still consistently performs . . . I just recently used a "Who Else" headline and it's doing very well.

To quote John Carlton, "Most advertisers get tired of their ad before their clients do." In other words, let the numbers tell you when an ad is tired . . .

I agree! Most copywriters may be tired of a certain format or headline style
but this doesn't mean that the target market is. Sometimes we have to get
out of the ring in order to see the real fight.

"Who Else ..." still works even if most copywriters are tired of seeing it.

Caveat: |Simply because a famous copywriter is using a headline doesn't
mean that it's the best choice. Mechanics often have the worst vehicles
because they know they can fix them any time.

-Ray Edwards

[maximus242]

Yes thats very wise Ray, I remember Mark Joyner talking about a lot of these kind of concepts in Mind Control Marketing. If you havent already read it, its a very excellent read on some of the bs that goes on in the internet marketing world -- and why you shouldnt really trust gurus unless you have rock solid test data behind what they say.

[FitJerk]

Hmm... ONE TIME FEE? Vin I trust what you do since you have a track record.

but for most others... REALLY? One time fee?... If a copywriter is so sure of his work, he'll adjust the price point.

What do I mean by that? Small upfront charge (Or none) and then LICENSE the copy to you.

This makes more sense. You really believe your copy will sell? Put your copy with your mouth is. And licensing it out for a small monthly fee is a GREAT way of doing just that.

This does 2 things very well...

1. Infuse confidence in the business owner.
2. Gives the copywriter re-occurring income.

My suggestion to you is to find a writer that does that ^

Test it out for 2 months, if it's not selling... REMOVE his copy from your page and either get him to re-vise it or find another copywriter.

Is this system perfect? Of course not, but the situation that you are in... I'm guessing that's your only option if you want a decent copy.

THAT... or yeah... take some time off and learn for yourself. I'll tell you that personal education on copywriting is a massive asset to have.

- FJ

[Nathan Hangen]

I don't think it is fair to expect someone new to this business to shell out 5k without telling him why he should. Not all sales copy will cost that much and it would be foolish to spend that much before you understand how to tell good copy from bad copy.

You can find someone to do it much cheaper than that and tweak it as you go.

[Matt James]

If a copywriter is so sure of his work, he'll adjust the price point.

What do I mean by that? Small upfront charge (Or none) and then LICENSE the copy to you.

This makes more sense. You really believe your copy will sell? Put your copy with your mouth is. And licensing it out for a small monthly fee is a GREAT way of doing just that.

Who does that make more sense to? How does the copywriter know that you'll send a decent amount of traffic to the page? Most big league copywriters will charge an upfront fee and receive a percentage of sales.

You're never going to get a decent copywriter to rent out his work to you, that's ridiculous.

I don't think it is fair to expect someone new to this business to shell out 5k without telling him why he should. Not all sales copy will cost that much and it would be foolish to spend that much before you understand how to tell good copy from bad copy.

You can find someone to do it much cheaper than that and tweak it as you go.

But if you don't understand how to tell good from bad...how are you going to "tweak it as you go?"

Sure, you can learn it yourself but that takes a long time. It's either time or money you lose, but at least with a good copywriter you're more likely to get that money back...and then some.

[Successpass]

I would get two pages selling the same product that I'm selling and copy it word for word. Obviously in a way that makes sense. I would make sure it had the same number of words. Another strategy is to take a sales letter from another industry and just change the odd word so that it makes sense. Although some sales letters are very generic anyway. But make sure you've seen the ad you copy a lot that way you know it's producing results. And read all of Dan Kennedys books he's very good and gives away a lot of valuable information. Start with No B.S Direct Marketing... Its a great book Good Luck!

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by metalslug

but for most others... REALLY? One time fee?... If a copywriter is so sure of his work, he'll adjust the price point.

What do I mean by that? Small upfront charge (Or none) and then LICENSE the copy to you.

You'll wind up paying alot more than a one-time fee. Otherwise, any great copywriter will take one of the other 9 offers he's got instead of yours.

It's a SELLERS market for great (even for many of the good) copywriters. We have more people who want our help than we can handle. That's why you rarely hear of copywriters being cut-throat with each other like many marketers can be.

This makes more sense. You really believe your copy will sell? Put your copy with your mouth is. And licensing it out for a small monthly fee is a GREAT way of doing just that.

What provisions are being put in place to prevent the client from not paying after they've gotten the sales copy? Even with the best legal contracts, not everyone will keep their end of the deal and pay up.

Personally, I'd require 4X my normal one-time fee put in an escrow account before I'd consider touching a deal like this. It's not worth the aggrevation to chase down slow pays or no pays... not when I have plenty of other people willing to pay my $5K fee.

Test it out for 2 months, if it's not selling... REMOVE his copy from your page and either get him to re-vise it or find another copywriter.

Depends on the amount of traffic... the quality of traffic source... what your targeting process is for identifying the most appropriate prospects... what's the offer being made, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Take the offer being made. I just discovered a client who's copy was converting around 4% decided to raise the product price from $97 to $397. Then they were surprised when sales went dead-cold... and blamed the copy.

Mind you, the only thing that changed was he bumped the price too high for the perceived value of the product.

I know of another copywriter who had a client do the same damn thing for a home study course.

Frankly, unless the copywriter has complete control over the entire marketing campaign, product offer, and running the show, it's WAY too easy for things to get messed up, unless you're partnered with a very experienced marketer.

Is this system perfect? Of course not, but the situation that you are in... I'm guessing that's your only option if you want a decent copy.

1. How about saving the money up until you have enough to hire a very good copywriter?

2. Or hiring a less expensive copywriter initially... taking the sales you make and save them until you can hire a more expensive copywriter.

3. Or hire them to do a critique of your copy, pointing out where it needs improvement?

THAT... or yeah... take some time off and learn for yourself. I'll tell you that personal education on copywriting is a massive asset to have.

- FJ

This is probably the best piece of advice you've given in this post. Copywriting is the most expensive thing to outsource. It's also the most important online skill to develop (or hire) for developing an online business.

Hope that clears things up a bit,

Mike

[FitJerk]

Originally Posted by Matt James

You're never going to get a decent copywriter to rent out his work to you, that's ridiculous.

LOL... you're kidding me right? "Never" and "ridiculous"? Strong words... use them only when you're CERTAIN. YES copywriters will rent out their work to you.

And why are you all so worried about people "NOT PAYING". A business deal is a business deal. When you write a copy to license it, you own every word of that copy, you write up a contract between the two parties and the buy button should have an affiliate link.

You don't WAIT for the guy to pay you, you make sure you get paid on the spot. From the sounds of it you guys sound like you're fretting in your pants... all worried people will "rip you off"

BEGINNING with this type of thinking is pretty closed minded if I would say so myself.

If you make the guy money... trust me, he will have NO problems opening up his wallet and sharing the wealth.

Are there assholes out there? Sure, but that's why you have the signed contract and affiliate link. You can make "access to the site's ftp" a part of the deal if you're so worried. There are ways around the "him not paying" issue.

MIKE<<< Yes you would end up paying more than a one-time fee... but that's the only solution for someone who does not have $5k (OR a big amount) up front. Any one second note... why do you care? Are you complaining that you're getting paid more? I sure hope not. =)

And save up? Well its going to take him a WHILE to save up if hes ****'s not selling now then isn't it? If he has a job on the side, different story, but that situation is something I don't have much info on... so I'll leave it aside.

Cheers.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by metalslug

Hmm... ONE TIME FEE? Vin I trust what you do since you have a track record.

but for most others... REALLY? One time fee?... If a copywriter is so sure of his work, he'll adjust the price point.

What do I mean by that? Small upfront charge (Or none) and then LICENSE the copy to you.

This makes more sense. You really believe your copy will sell? Put your copy with your mouth is. And licensing it out for a small monthly fee is a GREAT way of doing just that.

This does 2 things very well...

1. Infuse confidence in the business owner.
2. Gives the copywriter re-occurring income.

- FJ

Three problems with that...

1. Most marketers do not want a profit sharing situation. They want to buy what they buy and move on.

2. The copywriter has little if any control over the rest of the sales process. The traffic and such. Let's say the letter is to get people to dial an 800 number to be "closed," I have no idea how good your closers are.

3. In the few instances where I had this type of arrangement, I was screwed royally. It seems that no matter how much help people need up front, when thetime comes to share, they don't want to pay.

[Matt James]

YES copywriters will rent out their work to you.

I said "decent" copywriter.

Listen, I did indeed write once without getting paid up front. The product was a sequel to a high profile launch from a year or two back. I figured that hey this should do well because of the buzz and awareness.

The guy who hired me (and he's a member of this forum) then ran into problems with lawyers because it turned out he didn't actually own the rights to the product.

Meanwhile I'm halfway through the letter and have no hope of getting paid.

Always get at least half paid up front, I sure learned my lesson.

[FitJerk]

Hmm.. seems like some of you had a bad experience, that's unfortunate to hear. I know I'd willingly pay monthly for a copy, but those losers ruin it for the rest of us.

But the thing is... you realize you still own the copy. So if the guy goes under, or doesn't have rights to the product, just pull your copy out and sell/license it to the next available buyer. (You would have ftp access)

Easier said than done? Maybe... maybe not. Depends on the product and your copy.

[Dean Dhuli]

I know I'd willingly pay monthly for a copy, but those losers ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm sure you would. But there are a lot of people out there who won't...or rather can't.

Let's face it - if you don't have money to hire to good copywriter, you probably also won't have the money to market the product properly.

That means somebody could give you the best copy in the world for free, but you still may not be able to put it to good use. So where's the money to pay the copywriter now?

And then, who would want to get into a performance type deal with a newbie marketer? What's the guarantee he will pay?

It is alright if you are a big company with a huge customer base, and have a solid track record of paying copywriters properly. But even these companies pay an upfront fee besides royalties.

And the biggest drawback of doing performance type deals with newbie marketers is that when THEY have failed to market the product properly and it isn't selling well...the first thing they will say is that the copy isn't working.

So my suggestion: Never, never do commission type deals with people you don't know and haven't worked with before.

[MikeHumphreys]

Kudos to Dean for hitting a lot of the main reasons why 99% of copywriters won't do a straight commission deal.

Here's one from the harsh reality of life: The copywriter still needs to pay their own bills. So if your project takes them 40 hours or more, which many projects do when you factor in research, competitor analysis, writing, editing, etc., then they either need to have a cash cushion or be working on another project at the same time.

Their mortgage company or landlord doesn't take IOUs. Neither does the electric company which means if they turn off the power for non-payment, it's tough to work on the computer.

That means working on one or more project simultaneously which means less individual attention to your project.

One of the biggest benefits you gain when you hire a copywriter at $4K+ is they will probably be able to work exclusively on your project. They can obsess over the details like top copywriters do. They can keep checking their resources to find out what new breakthroughs can add more points to your conversion rate.

If you can't hire the best, then hire the best you can afford. Or learn how to write decent copy yourself. Then as you start making money from your sites, pay a pro to rewrite the copy for you.

Good luck,

Mike

[dunester]

Can anyone tell me how you determine if your sales are due to great copy, or mediocre copy and targeted traffic. I hear a lot of copywriters say their copy wont produce sales with poor traffic, but surely a large amount of traffic will produce sales from mediocre copy.

Did I just repeat myself?!

[Dean Dhuli]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Here's one from the harsh reality of life: The copywriter still needs to pay their own bills. So if your project takes them 40 hours or more, which many projects do when you factor in research, competitor analysis, writing, editing, etc., then they either need to have a cash cushion or be working on another project at the same time.

Their mortgage company or landlord doesn't take IOUs. Neither does the electric company which means if they turn off the power for non-payment, it's tough to work on the computer.

Exactly! Copywriters also need to pay their bills.

It's amazing that people run out of money or start thinking about saving it right when they get to the sales copy.

If you really want to save money on something, save it on graphics. Sure, good graphics help increase conversions but it's not compulsory that you have great graphics at the very beginning itself.

Once you have made some sales, you can take that money and reinvest it in improving your website.

I hear a lot of copywriters say their copy wont produce sales with poor traffic, but surely a large amount of traffic will produce sales from mediocre copy.

If you're sending a guy looking for computer hardware to a website with copy for a weight loss product, that's poor traffic.

Of course, the guy may want to know how to lose weight also. But there's no guarantee of that. Hence the poor sales.

When you send a large amount of such poor traffic to a good copy, you will have a few "lucky hits" and hence some sales.

On the other hand, sending a large amount of targeted traffic to a mediocre copy can also produce sales...if majority of the selling work has been done before the reader gets to the copy.


- Dean

[Kyle Tully]

The bottom line is copy comes third in importance behind your list and your offer.

Unless the copywriter has control over the list and offer (basically the entire marketing system) then why should he take on a large proportion of the risk?

But all of this licensing stuff is moot anyway.

Good copywriters have plenty of work available.

There's no need to take on any extra risk.

The only copywriters who take these kinds of deals need the work, and that's rarely a good sign.

Anyone with a bit of experience knows better, cause just about every experienced copywriter (including myself) has been bitten by one of these deals in the past when the marketer didn't fulfill his end of the bargain.

You want a decent salesletter? Pay a decent copywriter a decent amount of money. It's the decent thing to do

How much to budget?

I've not seen anyone charging less than $3k that I'd let loose on anything more serious than WSO copy or a $7 ebook.