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Only 2 Sales can this still be profitable?

by Schwan
25 replies
Hi,

So i made a Test, i spend 160€ for 365 Klicks (0,43Cpc)
and gained 84€ Ca$h with 2 Sales for 42€ each. (So there is a overall loss of 160€-84€= 76€.)

What's the probability, that my site is still profitable?

thanks in advance, Schwan
#50% #profitable #roi #sales
  • Profile picture of the author packerfan
    Not nearly enough information. Do you have a back-end? If so, do you know the lifetime value of a customer? As it stands, your site is not profitable. However, you have a very small sample size with only 365 visitors.

    There are literally a thousand factors to consider. Did you target the right keywords? Does your copy convert? Is your offer strong? Etc.

    Did you capture any of the 365 visitors as leads? If not, I'd highly suggest you focus on generating leads rather than making sales. Make your sales through building a relationship.

    Anyway, it's impossible to give you a straight answer with the info provided.
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    • Profile picture of the author Schwan
      hi packerfan,

      Thanks for your reply.
      I try to provide as much information as possible:

      1) No backend

      2) I did not capure any leads, it was direct sale (cold traffic --> Salescopy)
      My previous tests with email-leads were not successfull, but maybe i just did'nt send enoug messages (only 10 Messages in an Autoresponder i think)
      My target group are Parents in germany and maybe they don't open enough mails? The open-rate was at 10% Maybe and the Click-Rate from one E-Mail Maybe also 10% so 100 Mails sent = 1 Klick it just doesn't work for me.

      First, i want to make sure my sales-Process works, before i capture leads, because without the right salescopy, even leads will not turn into buyers, i think. So with direct sale, the testing of the salescopy is easier.

      So what do you think, if i buy another 300 Klicks, how probable is a positive ROI?
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Webb
        If I've understood correctly you're using an autoresponder series, there's no reason why simply adding another 10 or so emails with two more offers in a couple of the emails wouldn't net more sales.

        Obviously the offers need to be relevant and you need to explain why the subscibers will benefit. Try it out - you don't even need to spend any more money
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        • Profile picture of the author Schwan
          Originally Posted by Chris Webb View Post

          If I've understood correctly you're using an autoresponder series, there's no reason why simply adding another 10 or so emails with two more offers in a couple of the emails wouldn't net more sales.

          Obviously the offers need to be relevant and you need to explain why the subscibers will benefit. Try it out - you don't even need to spend any more money
          Hi Chris and thanks for your help,
          How much Openrate- Clickrate in an E-Mail would be normall to your?
          My Openrate: 15% - Clickrate: 10% = 1,5 Klicks per Mail. (Send 100 Mails to get 1,5 Klicks)
          I think this ratio is just to low to be profitable with e-mail marketing, or are thes low numbers normal?
          Schwan
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          • Profile picture of the author susanMC
            Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

            Hi Chris and thanks for your help,
            How much Openrate- Clickrate in an E-Mail would be normall to your?
            My Openrate: 15% - Clickrate: 10% = 1,5 Klicks per Mail. (Send 100 Mails to get 1,5 Klicks)
            I think this ratio is just to low to be profitable with e-mail marketing, or are thes low numbers normal?
            Schwan

            thats actually really high,..my open rate was below 10% when i did email marking and i then moved on,.i think email marketing is done,..lol.hmm
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      • Profile picture of the author packerfan
        Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

        hi packerfan,

        Thanks for your reply.
        I try to provide as much information as possible:

        1) No backend

        2) I did not capure any leads, it was direct sale (cold traffic --> Salescopy)
        My previous tests with email-leads were not successfull, but maybe i just did'nt send enoug messages (only 10 Messages in an Autoresponder i think)
        My target group are Parents in germany and maybe they don't open enough mails? The open-rate was at 10% Maybe and the Click-Rate from one E-Mail Maybe also 10% so 100 Mails sent = 1 Klick it just doesn't work for me.

        First, i want to make sure my sales-Process works, before i capture leads, because without the right salescopy, even leads will not turn into buyers, i think. So with direct sale, the testing of the salescopy is easier.

        So what do you think, if i buy another 300 Klicks, how probable is a positive ROI?
        You're currently converting at less than 1%. If you haven't done any testing or optimizing, then you can likely make a pretty substantial increase. One other thing I'd try is to raise the price of what you're selling. If you can afford it, I'd buy another 400 clicks, raise the price to where you break even with 2 sales in those 400 clicks, and I'll bet you make the 2 sales just like at the lower price.

        Maybe post your site here and get some feedback on the copy.

        On the email marketing: I really think you're missing a huge opportunity here. I know you tried in the past, but I'd strongly recommend you capture email addresses somehow. If it's done right, you've now got people that you know are interested in what you're selling.

        Then the key is build a little relationship with those folks. After that, it's time to pitch your product, etc. It just takes testing. 10% isn't a terrible open rate, think if you had a list of 1000 people. That means 100 read your message. Not bad really when you think about it...
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        • Profile picture of the author Schwan
          Originally Posted by packerfan View Post

          On the email marketing: I really think you're missing a huge opportunity here. I know you tried in the past, but I'd strongly recommend you capture email addresses somehow. If it's done right, you've now got people that you know are interested in what you're selling.
          Hi packerfan,
          Ok, but let's say 100 Mails = 2 Klicks on your sales letter isn't this to low?
          Do you mean i should capure the mails form the folks, which try to leave the sales letter, or capure the leads first and than sell?
          Would email-marketing be profitable for me, if i have no backend?

          thanks, Schwan
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          • Profile picture of the author packerfan
            You could try to capture the when they leave the sales page. The beauty of having a list is that you can build a relationship with that list over time. Continue to pitch them different offers, products, etc.

            One thing is for sure, if you're going to break even or lose on the front end, you have to have a back-end.

            I'd recommend something like -> initial offer -> OTO that enhances the initial offer -> auto responder series that builds on the initial product (and OTO if they bought it) -> pitch complimentary product -> rinse and repeat adding value and pitching products (or do a launch or whatever)

            It's really tough to convert cold traffic into direct sales for a profit. And you leave a ton of money on the table if that's your only strategy.
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            • Profile picture of the author Schwan
              Originally Posted by packerfan View Post


              I'd recommend something like -> initial offer -> OTO that enhances the initial offer -> auto responder series that builds on the initial product (and OTO if they bought it) -> pitch complimentary product -> rinse and repeat adding value and pitching products (or do a launch or whatever)
              Hi Packerfan,

              So do you mean with this scheme i should send the cold traffic to the optin-page or do you mean i should capure them, when they are trying to leave the sales-page (but how many would insert their e-mail, when they tried to leave)?

              Ps: The bitter thing: My optinpage works with a conversion of 18% or so.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
    You paid €80 to get a customer, and that customer only paid you €42.

    That means to go profitable you're going to need to either halve your acquisition cost, double your conversion rate, or some combination of the two.

    How probable's that? With your current business model it depends on how good your ads already are and the offer you're making.

    To improve your chances, you'd do well to implement a back-end, even something simple like an immediate upsell to a luxury version of whatever you're selling.

    And you really should be capturing leads at some point, too.

    Finally, if it's a competitive market, you simply might not be able to go positive on the front-end. There's plenty of savvy direct response marketers who're happy to break-even, or go negative, on the front. They can do this because they know the life-time value of their customers, and that losing a few bucks to start with isn't a problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author Schwan
      Originally Posted by Andrew Gould View Post

      Finally, if it's a competitive market, you simply might not be able to go positive on the front-end. There's plenty of savvy direct response marketers who're happy to break-even, or go negative, on the front. They can do this because they know the life-time value of their customers, and that losing a few bucks to start with isn't a problem.
      Hi andrew,

      So you mean with front end sending cold traffic to a sales page or to an optin-page?
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  • Profile picture of the author ddDonPaul
    Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

    Hi,

    So i made a Test, i spend 160€ for 365 Klicks (0,43Cpc)
    and gained 84€ Ca with 2 Sales for 42€ each. (So there is a overall loss of 160€-84€= 76€.)

    What's the probability, that my site is still profitable?

    thanks in advance, Schwan
    first of all, from where did you buy that traffic? if it`s not from adwords, then you buyed low quality traffic. it happened to me once...
    but it is from google (they send targeted quality traffic to your site) it means that your site isn`t converting well into cash. you should try to change something... but we don`t know anything about your site so...
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve The Copywriter
      I get the idea of making money on the backend sales.

      And yes you must capture the email addresses and build a great relationship with your people.

      But there's absolutely no need to lose money on the initial sale.

      Why should you? Get the right traffic, have compelling copy, an irresistible offer and make a profit.

      It makes sense because if you have a outstanding "first" product - it's worth the money.

      If it isn't any good then it's unlikely anyone will buy the "next" product.

      All my clients want a profit now and more profits later.

      So, turbo charge your site (as others have said post it - and you'll get some brilliant advice on how to improve it).

      This should dramatically increase your sales on the front end.

      Hope this helps,

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
        Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

        Hi andrew,

        So you mean with front end sending cold traffic to a sales page or to an optin-page?
        Either.

        But please note that just trying to break-even or going negative is not for you at this point in time. You need to get a decent sales funnel in place before you even think of trying it.

        I was just trying to let you know that in some markets it can be tricky to make money on the front-end. Give you a big picture view.

        I apologize that it seems to have turned into the focus of this thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author Schwan
          Hi Andrew

          Thanks for your help, but now i'm confused:
          Originally Posted by Andrew Gould View Post

          Either.
          Do you mean the choice beteween sending cold traffic to a sales page or to an optin-page doesn't matter?

          Originally Posted by Andrew Gould View Post

          But please note that just trying to break-even or going negative is not for you at this point in time. You need to get a decent sales funnel in place before you even think of trying it.
          Ok what about this sales funnel: cold traffic --> salesletter --> buy (or capture email on exti) --> Upsell & autoresponder series
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          • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
            Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

            Do you mean the choice beteween sending cold traffic to a sales page or to an optin-page doesn't matter?

            Sorry, I thought you wanted to know which referred to "front-end".

            Yes, it does matter.

            As you've had results sending traffic directly to a sales page, I'd optimize that.

            Ok what about this sales funnel: cold traffic --> salesletter --> buy (or capture email on exti) --> Upsell & autoresponder series
            That's fine.
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            • Profile picture of the author packerfan
              Schwan,

              Consider a model like the one used at this site hxxp://www.outwithgout.com/

              Basically it's the sales page, then a very good offer for getting the product at a very attractive price as a trial, and then finally an attempt to capture the email address.

              Just happened to stumble across the example. I'm not affiliated with this product in any way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Schwan
        Originally Posted by Steve Copywriter View Post

        So, turbo charge your site (as others have said post it - and you'll get some brilliant advice on how to improve it).

        This should dramatically increase your sales on the front end.

        Hope this helps,

        Steve
        Hi Steve,

        Thanks for your insight, first of all. So the problem is, that my site is in german (and a video) and i think you're right, the Conversion is not good enough.
        I will now try another salesletter it made a 1,3% Conversion for an physical book - but it was a 14-days-free-test thing, and i think the product didn't match the expectations, because only 1 of 5 costumers paid after the test. Now i will sell a 6h Video Course instead of the Book and hope for higher conversion than 1,3% (and no returns of the product).
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        • Profile picture of the author Schwan
          Hi everyone,

          First of all thanks for all the nice comments and help. I know they come from definitley more experience than i have.

          But my big question to you ( sry, but thats what i'm confused about it could be obviously for you)

          Do you think this sales funnel is ok:
          cold traffic --> salesletter --> buy (or try to capture email on exit) --> Upsell & autoresponder series
          Or should it be like this:
          cold traffic --> optinpage --> autoresponder --> salesletter --> buy and Upsell --> sell more through autoresponder
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          • Profile picture of the author packerfan
            Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

            Hi everyone,

            First of all thanks for all the nice comments and help. I know they come from definitley more experience than i have.

            But my big question to you ( sry, but thats what i'm confused about it could be obviously for you)

            Do you think this sales funnel is ok:
            cold traffic --> salesletter --> buy (or try to capture email on exit) --> Upsell & autoresponder series
            Or should it be like this:
            cold traffic --> optinpage --> autoresponder --> salesletter --> buy and Upsell --> sell more through autoresponder

            Need to test, test, test... Here's what I'd try

            1. Continue to optimize your sales page to increase conversion.

            2. I'd test this funnel: Cold traffic -> Sales Page -> Leave page offer a bonus or price reduction -> offer a part of it (life a chapter) free for an email -> auto responder (educate and pitch)

            3. I'd test this funnel: Cold traffic -> optin -> auto responder (educate and pitch)

            The reality is you really have to test, test, test.
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            • Profile picture of the author Schwan
              Originally Posted by packerfan View Post

              Need to test, test, test... Here's what I'd try

              1. Continue to optimize your sales page to increase conversion.

              2. I'd test this funnel: Cold traffic -> Sales Page -> Leave page offer a bonus or price reduction -> offer a part of it (life a chapter) free for an email -> auto responder (educate and pitch)

              3. I'd test this funnel: Cold traffic -> optin -> auto responder (educate and pitch)

              The reality is you really have to test, test, test.
              I like that answer, because it doesn't involve sending cold traffic directly to the optin page, which doesen't work for me.

              So on the leave page, i offer the product with a bonus or a price reduction and also a part of the product for their email-adress? If yes, would this leave-page still show the whole sales letter or only the enhanced product and the buying options, to make it shorter?
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              • Profile picture of the author packerfan
                Originally Posted by Schwan View Post

                I like that answer, because it doesn't involve sending cold traffic directly to the optin page, which doesen't work for me.

                So on the leave page, i offer the product with a bonus or a price reduction and also a part of the product for their email-adress? If yes, would this leave-page still show the whole sales letter or only the enhanced product and the buying options, to make it shorter?
                It's really hard to give specific advice without knowing the product. You'll need to test to see what works the best.
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  • Profile picture of the author RazvanRogoz
    You're not actually expected to make a profit on the front end.

    I don't know if it will be profitable or not. As others said, there is not enough information.

    However, I know that if you develop a back-end (even an affiliate one), you can break even or make a profit.

    The easiest way to make a second sale? Just offer them moments after they've bought the initial course.

    Make it a premium or a gold version. Most people use the following system:
    1. Sales page for front-end.
    2. Prospect clicks buy.
    3. Prospect is redirected to second smaller sales page for back-end showing how this improves the efficiency of the first one.
    4. Prospect usually buys for of them.

    Or my SOP is to offer a membership product. This comes as a pre-checked upsell (31 days free) and then $19.99 per month.

    Best regards,
    Razvan
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    • Profile picture of the author packerfan
      Originally Posted by RazvanRogoz View Post

      You're not actually expected to make a profit on the front end.

      Best regards,
      Razvan
      This isn't necessarily true. In fact, unless you have a PROVEN backend you should try to profit on the initial sale. It sounds to me like the OP is just getting started with this product, so he has no proof and in fact no backend to convert.

      It's a losing proposition to hope to make money on the backend when one doesn't exist.

      You can absolutely make money on the "front end" read Steve's post above. he's absolutely spot on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Increase Media
    Most of your money will be made on the backend. The initial sale gives you a customer. However, your backend makes you money over and over again. If this is your only offer then I suggest that you consider adding backend offers. I hope it works out for you Schwan.
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