Copywriting , persuasion and illegal manipulation using forbidden techniques isn't rocket science !

[-seomaster-]

Excuse me but since most of you are trained to respond to these hooks I had to use the fancy headline to grab your attention .....

The reason why I am posting this thread is because I see a lot of "Rate my copy" , "critique my new copy" , "copywriter for hire . paying $xxxx" and other threads somewhat along the same lines running parallel to a common goal of collective understanding that copywriting is ..

• Rocket science.
• Only professionals can write winning copy [ To a certain extent yes ]
• I NEED to buy the $1997 copywriting course which will teach me all and is considered to be the Bible in the current market.
• writing essays in record breaking time and then asking helpful experienced members here to do the heavy lifting for you .

So lets take a closer look at these bullet points.

Writing compelling winning copy takes time but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to be a seasoned copywriter for writing one.
Neither does it mean that it is rocket science and only a handful have figured it out and mastered the art of persuasive copy. If u think so ...STOP !!!!

I beg to differ. I wrote my first copy without any prior knowledge of copywriting rules and it still made a killing for me.

"But wait , Mr seomaster I still suck at writing copy !! Last time I did , not even a dire soul gave it a second look ."

The difference between u and me and even many people who succeed at writing good sales letters even when they have just started out IS .....

• They go out there and test , split test , multi test the **** out of it before asking for a critique .
• They are passionate about selling their product .
• They put in serious amount of time and effort into it before asking anyone else for a critique and tweaking advice.
• They actually believe in their product/service/business/offer.

Now think again , I never said copywriting was easy BUT I did say writing good copy isn't rocket science.
Stop procrastinating . Stop making the common mistakes most of you do.
Stick to one good guide/ebook/course and apply those techniques.
Pick up any good name bob bly , john carlton , makepeace , tony flores , dan kennedy and actually go out there and implement that knowledge. Don't hop from one guide to another and waste time . Don't get lost in the abyss of information overload.
These guides show you the path , it is you who will have to follow it EXPERIENCE , MAKE MISTAKES , AND LEARN along the way .

Copywriting is not rocket science . It is hard work , testing and tweaking . It is practice . It is a continuous journey towards perfection....

All that is good , But who am I to endow such wise wisdom on you ?
I am no one . I am not a master copywriter . I am not one of the A league .
But what I can assure you is , whatever I just put you through is an honest realization I had when I was in your place , in those same shoes .
It worked out for me [ it still does ] and it will work out for YOU .

Keep it simple . Achieving simplicity is the single most task which is difficult .
Don't write your copy using 100 rules . In the begining , YES ! test test test , find out whats working ....then distill it down to their core elements and always keep those 5-6 thumb rules handy while thrashing the things which doesn't work for that particular niche or market .

If u have any questions , feel free to PM me or post here .
before leaving ill give you one golden nugget which has always helped me out .

"You are the best critique of your own copy . You just need to change sides "



Have a nice day ahead , I wish you goodluck.
cheers !!

[Mark Andrews]

That's right...

If you want a finely tuned engine go down the road and knock on Tommy's door, he's as pissed as a rattlesnakes arse most of the time but that don't matter, your engine's in safe hands with him.

Ignore the filthy workshop, lack of tools, he knows what he's talking about - that's all that matters.

Take your engine to him, he'll sort you out in no time. No need to go to a proper garage / workshop.

What's the point in that?

I'm telling you it's super easy, anyone can do it. Just pick up any old spanner, throw it in the works, sit back, relax, go to the beach whatever, hell drink another beer and save yourself loads of money.

Drily,


Mark Andrews

[-seomaster-]

Well mark while I admire your sarcasm , let me make some things clear. I am not saying don't hire professional copywriters , hell if u have the money they charge , go for it . ALWAYS !
But if u don't and want free critique advices on your copy atleast make an effort to write a decent one .
No one is ready to get their hands dirty ....WHY ?
because they think it takes too much time and effort !
Why do they think so !! Because they have been made to believe so... While these are my personal beliefs that if u aspire to become a decent copywriter stop reading and start doing . You don't need to be a silver tongue to achieve a good sales page , you just need to find out what works .

Mark , I respect professional copywriters . I just wanted to shed some light on how it is not so difficult to get a decent sales page running up .

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

That's right...

If you want a finely tuned engine go down the road and knock on Tommy's door, he's as pissed as a rattlesnakes arse most of the time but that don't matter, your engine's in safe hands with him.

Ignore the filthy workshop, lack of tools, he knows what he's talking about - that's all that matters.

Take your engine to him, he'll sort you out in no time. No need to go to a proper garage / workshop.

What's the point in that?

I'm telling you it's super easy, anyone can do it. Just pick up any old spanner, throw it in the works, sit back, relax, go to the beach whatever, hell drink another beer and save yourself loads of money.

Drily,


Mark Andrews

[maximus242]

I more or less agree with SEO master. There is a misconception that copywriting is rocket science when its certainly not. The idea that its rocket science is simply a myth that follows the "Winning Through Intimidation" model used by Robert Ringer and heavily promoted by Dan Kennedy.

Salesmanship is simple, the idea that it isnt is the same thing used to sell voodoo and exorcisms. Mystery

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by maximus242

I more or less agree with SEO master. There is a misconception that copywriting is rocket science when its certainly not. The idea that its rocket science is simply a myth that follows the "Winning Through Intimidation" model used by Robert Ringer and heavily promoted by Dan Kennedy.

Salesmanship is simple, the idea that it isnt is the same thing used to sell voodoo and exorcisms. Mystery

I would like to expand on your views a bit. Like I said before...marketing , salesmanship , writing good copy really comes down to simple things , but achieved only when you constantly experiment .
Now , don't misunderstand that after reaching your stable control your work is over . You constantly have to tweak and experiment till you outperform your own control . That way you stay ahead of your competition and also know what are the current marketing tactics , call to actions which are working .
this way your copy never gets old and never loses power .

So basically , instead of creating your next big HIT ..you start small with a decent copy and constantly apply techniques ,suggestions , methods found on forums and guides to make it better bit by bit . This way you learn the art better as you put methods into action and actually test it out yourself.

Regards
have a nice day !!

[Rezbi]

Allow me to give an example of what copywriting is all about...

Who here knows how to run?

Just put one foot in front of the other and go for it. Right?

Right.

Everyone knows how to do it.

Now, who here can sprint for the Olympics and win a gold medal?

Not many, I would assume.

What takes those people there?

Desire... and... at least some ability.

The, you take that ability and do what it takes to get there. I won't go into how - you should all have a good idea by now.

Not everyone can become a champion sprinter, no matter how long they try.

But everyone can run.

So, yes, it's possible for anyone to become a copywriter.

But...

It's not possible for everyone to become an A-level copywriter... no matter how much they try.

If anyone doubts that and wants to dispute that fact with me, take my challenge...

Go away, do what it takes, and show me when you get to A-level. Or even a decent B-level.

[Pointless insult deleted by moderator]

Okay, the wording should have been different (I was going to edit it, anyway). I don't think it was completely pointless as there are some people who do that. But I respect the moderators decision.

[copyassassin]

Originally Posted by -seomaster-

Mark , I respect professional copywriters . I just wanted to shed some light on how it is not so difficult to get a decent sales page running up .

seomaster,

Let me undress this fine lady and show you what's really under the panties...

Business people hire copywriters because:

• They don't have the time
• They don't have the desire
• Their personal copy doesn't convert well, enough

Those 3 bullets basically sum it all up.

If even you have a killer salesletter, its gonna be knocked off and then you'll need to restart, again.

And a lot of business owners don't want to do this.

The question I ask myself and every client I'm responsible for is this:

What is the highest value activity YOU do?

Focus on that.

The problem is, and I get the vibe you're in this lot, is that for beginning business owners who haven't got a clear understanding of their highest use of time, they de-value others people abilities because they have such an enormou amount excess capacity that there isn't a clear value proposition to be had.

In other words, if you're making $10/hour, the math just doesn't work for you to pay a person $5,000+

Trust me, lawyers pay $5,000+ for marketing all the time because (1) one case is enough to cover the nut, PLUS their hourly rates is $250+. In other words, there time is better spent working a case then writing a WSO.

[The Copy Warriors]

Well, like Dan Kennedy says, anyone CAN learn to write good copy...

but...

1. If your writing skills are poor it will be a long freakin' road until you master it.

2. Even once you get GOOD you're still not GREAT.

3. And if you're really busy working on other areas of your business, even if you're a kick-ass copywriter, it might be worth your time to work on other things and outsource copy for convenience.

[eugenedm]

I just want to keep it simple, for me copywriting is about "attracting" your audience, persuading them to get your service and product because it will help them. If I want to persuade or convince anyone, I would like to do it directly but I don't really want to manipulate anyone or over-promise something and not deliver.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by copyassassin

seomaster,

Let me undress this fine lady and show you what's really under the panties...

Business people hire copywriters because:

• They don't have the time
• They don't have the desire
• Their personal copy doesn't convert well, enough

Those 3 bullets basically sum it all up.

If even you have a killer salesletter, its gonna be knocked off and then you'll need to restart, again.

And a lot of business owners don't want to do this.

The question I ask myself and every client I'm responsible for is this:

What is the highest value activity YOU do?

Focus on that.

The problem is, and I get the vibe you're in this lot, is that for beginning business owners who haven't got a clear understanding of their highest use of time, they de-value others people abilities because they have such an enormou amount excess capacity that there isn't a clear value proposition to be had.

In other words, if you're making $10/hour, the math just doesn't work for you to pay a person $5,000+

Trust me, lawyers pay $5,000+ for marketing all the time because (1) one case is enough to cover the nut, PLUS their hourly rates is $250+. In other words, there time is better spent working a case then writing a WSO.

Its pointless to even reply to your post. How hard is it for you to read the thread before you post ? Considering you are in the copywriting section I don't think its too hard for you to understand that this post is for potential

" NEW copywriters , Newbie Internet marketer and the average tom , dick and harry who make up the 99% of the people who cannot afford to waste TOP dollar on a sales page when they themselves don't have an idea about what their marketing strategy will be and what would be their traffic source which actually converts "

Considering you are a decent copywriter .... DID u just get up one day out of the blue and start charging xxx amount of money for your time ? NO NO NO!
You took a path to reach that level . You stuck to some ground rules . You practiced .

This post sheds light on that same path . This post doesn't accuse copywriters of charging insane amounts of money for their copy !!

AGAIN considering you are a good copywriter YOU are still not carlton neither Dan kennedy ! Which means you are not of the A league .

I have been telling this from the beginning . Not everyone can become a A-list copywriter but certainly everyone can become a very good copywriter by following simple rules . what do you think ? all the copy written on the internet is done by a handful of these geniuses ? NO ....99% of it is still being written by your average tom dick and harry .
And we both know it works .......


moral of the story ? --- copywriting isn't rocket science for the people who want to become the average tom , dick and harry of the internet marketing industry . Not everyone has $2000 to start out with . And not every other guy has the power to buy possibly all the course material just so that he is reassured that he has the copywriting industry figured out . The fact is and will always remain : you can write decent copy with as much as 5% conversion rates even when you are not a pro.
Food for thought : How many do u think are professional copywriters out of the 28000 members who have posted a WSO ? My guess is next to none.

The question of highest value jargon doesn't even fit in the equation when people are starting out . Don't tell me you had it all sorted out when u did .

WISE TIP :
Read millionaire fastlane to get a good idea about what the guy above is TRYING to say .It does a better job.

Take time and read the post . Reflect on it . Only then post here again .

Have a great day ahead

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by eugenedm

I just want to keep it simple, for me copywriting is about "attracting" your audience, persuading them to get your service and product because it will help them. If I want to persuade or convince anyone, I would like to do it directly but I don't really want to manipulate anyone or over-promise something and not deliver.

eugenedm : Thanks a lot for posting your thoughts. Have you ever realized that every human being is a manipulator ? Accept the hard truth . The time since a child starts playing his mom to make his dad buy him a new toy , he becomes a manipulator. We all are manipulators . That doesn't mean we are bad and We do bad things .

According to my Webster's dictionary, "manipulate" has three shades of meaning.
1) to work or handle skillfully [ sounds pretty good]
2) to manage artfully or shrewdly [also sounds like business]
3)to alter for one's own purposes. [if the purpose is good-and it always is for internet marketers . we provide instant solutions to their problems ]

[copyassassin]

moral of the story ? --- copywriting isn't rocket science for the people who want to become the average tom , dick and harry of the internet marketing industry

Average newbie loses money in IM. Lots of money.

Average is nothing to aspire to.

If you want to be average, save yourself the time, money, and emotion and just don't start.

However, I do agree that a-level copy is rarely needed. B-level copy sometimes. C and d level copywriters, most of what you see on the WF, is "good enough".

Was your post meant to inspire newbies that they can write effective copy without having to pay lots of $$$$?

The honest truth is that in some markets you can get away with poor copy, aka "average copy". If you have killer seo, then yes, killer copy isn't required, in the short term.

Long term in competitive markets, yes.

.........

Btw, I did read ur post.

Not sure what that says about my reading comprehension level. I was always in the "d" reading group, as in the "dumbass" reading group. And during my SATs I usually skipped ahead too.

Oh well. I still managed to finish USC. Two degrees. Good enough for me.

.......

My wife is on the phone with a college friend. So I'm waiting for her to come to bed. You have her to thank for me replying.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by copyassassin

Average newbie loses money in IM. Lots of money.

Average is nothing to aspire to.

If you want to be average, save yourself the time, money, and emotion and just don't start.

However, I do agree that a-level copy is rarely needed. B-level copy sometimes. C and d level copywriters, most of what you see on the WF, is "good enough".

Was your post meant to inspire newbies that they can write effective copy without having to pay lots of $$$$?

The honest truth is that in some markets you can get away with poor copy, aka "average copy". If you have killer seo, then yes, killer copy isn't required, in the short term.

Long term in competitive markets, yes.

.........

Btw, I did read ur post.

Not sure what that says about my reading comprehension level. I was always in the "d" reading group, as in the "dumbass" reading group. And during my SATs I usually skipped ahead too.

Oh well. I still managed to finish USC. Two degrees. Good enough for me.

.......

My wife is on the phone with a college friend. So I'm waiting for her to come to bed. You have her to thank for me replying.

Give her my thanks . I could learn a few things from you . Will expand later on after work .
thanks for stopping by and letting us know what you think .

[MarketingManUK]

Originally Posted by copyassassin

seomaster,

Business people hire copywriters because:

• They don't have the time
• They don't have the desire
• Their personal copy doesn't convert well, enough

Couldn't agree more - and all 3 are certainly interlinked with each other.

That said particularly if your website is in a niche area, where your visitors are certainly experts, hiring a content firm which out sources its content (often through the likes of oDesk) is just as bad as writing it yourself. Website visitors are not stupid and if content is not written with them in mind you'll not see them again!

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by MarketingManUK

Couldn't agree more - and all 3 are certainly interlinked with each other.

That said particularly if your website is in a niche area, where your visitors are certainly experts, hiring a content firm which out sources its content (often through the likes of oDesk) is just as bad as writing it yourself. Website visitors are not stupid and if content is not written with them in mind you'll not see them again!

Two totally different concepts in the context of this post ...ain't it ?

[ThomasOMalley]

It always comes down to time and money.

If you are starting out and don't have or don't want to spend a lot of money for a good copywriter, then you can spend the time and energy to become a good copywriter.

Many entrepreneurs do that.

Or you can spend the money or investment on a good copywriter when your time is better spent on other aspects of your business.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley

It always comes down to time and money.

If you are starting out and don't have or don't want to spend a lot of money for a good copywriter, then you can spend the time and energy to become a good copywriter.

Many entrepreneurs do that.

Or you can spend the money or investment on a good copywriter when your time is better spent on other aspects of your business.

It is my opinion if u know your product in and out . If u know what problems exactly it is going to solve for your prospects AND if it gives instant gratification ...you don't need to go through heavy copywriting courses.

Also not many people opt for hiring a copywriter when they start out because they are uncertain about everything and the number 1 priority is always securing as much profit as one can by saving as much money as possible so that loss is minimized if things go wrong.

Have a nice day .

[jimbo13]

SEO

What you are saying makes sense to me. And outside of Internet stuff it would make sense too.

Give your average small business owner just one Marketing book or sales book or simple copywriting book and tell him/her to read it over the weekend and start to implement some of the ideas and they will start to see an improvement in their business. May take a few weeks as things sink in but they will.

If they read too many books they will get cluttered up in their minds.

Now that doesn't mean that the £6.99 book is as good as a Marketing Agency or Pro Copywriter but fact is these businesses are not looking for those anyway.

But by starting small and testing they may grow to the point that they realise the value a Pro will bring to them or study more advanced things themselves.

I think this is maybe the point you are making is it not?

Dan

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by copyassassin

Average newbie loses money in IM. Lots of money.

Average is nothing to aspire to.

If you want to be average, save yourself the time, money, and emotion and just don't start.

Newbies, please take note of this very valuable point.

I lost a bucket load of cash when I first started out. You don't need to spend your life savings to get started.

Get yourself a Dummies book on your subject. Take it from me, that's all you'll need. You'll save yourself a ton of cash and heartache.

And, after you get the Dummies book, make use of it. DO NOT buy another book or course.

[ThomasOMalley]

This discussion doesn't really matter anyway.

Most small entrepreneurs are going to do what they're going to do. If they don't want to hire a copywriter, they're not going to do that.

If they want to hire a copywriter, they will.

*****One big point...I wouldn't focus on these folks too much as potential prospects for copywriting. As discussed, many just won't hire a copywriter no matter what or how you try to convince them.

Peace.

[angiecolee]

Originally Posted by -seomaster-

It is my opinion if u know your product in and out . If u know what problems exactly it is going to solve for your prospects AND if it gives instant gratification ...you don't need to go through heavy copywriting courses.

You may know your product inside and out, but is that going to sell it?

I don't care if the iPad has oleophobic coating. I don't care if it has 2048-by-1536-pixel resolution at 264 PPI. I care that it the sexiest, coolest piece of technology I will ever own.

Note: I'm not an avid Apple fan and I don't own an iPad. I'm not trying to sell iPads or Apple products here. I'm just trying to show that sometimes what you as the product creator get excited about is not necessarily what the target market gets excited about. Therein lies the difference between acceptable and amazing copy.

[copyassassin]

Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley

This discussion doesn't really matter anyway.

Actually, I think this is a worthy discussion.

The question, the real question, I believe is:

When MUST you have killer copy?

I think the OP is correct in saying that a business owner can learn enough to be good enough.

In most markets, "enough" is enough.

GKIC proves this every month: Swipe and deploy, right DK?

When BETTER than enough is required is for competitive markets. If you are doing a mass mailer, like AMEX, there is enough scale that a .01% improvement equals millions in additional revenue.

Here, an A list copywriter is worth the money.

If you are doing adwords for DUI, a slight bump will allow you to kill your competitor.

As cost per leads increases, per sale, goes up, the value in increase of conversion goes up.

And if your copywriter can help up with cross selling, upselling, anything to increase lifetime customer value, then YES, its worth the money.

And all else equal, your personal value of time needs to be put into the equation.

[ThomasOMalley]

My point still stands...a small entrepreneur is going to do what he's going to do regardless.

Your other scenarios are obvious. Next you're going to tell us we should use headlines compared to no headlines.

[copyassassin]

Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley

Most small entrepreneurs are going to do what they're going to do. If they don't want to hire a copywriter, they're not going to do that.

The reason I think most deals don't get done is because the value of doing a deal isn't clear.

Our job as service professionals is to make it clear we're worth the money.

For example, a entrepreneur isn't going to buy copywriting services unless its very clear that buying the service is worth the money.

As in, "You pay me $10,000.00 and I'll produce copy that beats your control so you get a "X" percentage increase in profit with ROI of fees within Y timeframe given Z amount of traffic"

As consultants we're selling money at a discount.

Now, the next hurdle after clearly stating the value is making the claim believable.

As in, "I really can produce results for you."

And the final hurdle is professionalism.

As in, "I'm fun and easy to work with. I'm prompt in my deliverables."

I know that if I clearly state the value, provide proof I can get the job done, and convince the prospect of my professionalism, then the only reasonable objection is cashflow.

Entrepreneurs are smart. Make the deal make sense.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by copyassassin

Actually, I think this is a worthy discussion.

The question, the real question, I believe is:

When MUST you have killer copy?

I think the OP is correct in saying that a business owner can learn enough to be good enough.

In most markets, "enough" is enough.

GKIC proves this every month: Swipe and deploy, right DK?

When BETTER than enough is required is for competitive markets. If you are doing a mass mailer, like AMEX, there is enough scale that a .01% improvement equals millions in additional revenue.

Here, an A list copywriter is worth the money.

If you are doing adwords for DUI, a slight bump will allow you to kill your competitor.

As cost per leads increases, per sale, goes up, the value in increase of conversion goes up.

And if your copywriter can help up with cross selling, upselling, anything to increase lifetime customer value, then YES, its worth the money.

And all else equal, your personal value of time needs to be put into the equation.

Pretty much sums up the entire context of this discussion .

[ThomasOMalley]

If you think all entrepreneurs are true prospects for copywriting services, you are sadly mistaken.

Go after them with all your might and persuasion...truly a fool's game. If you take this approach, I hope you have another source of income.

Smart marketing to get copywriting work is to target viable prospects. Read Slaunwhite's The Wealthy Freelancer.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley

If you think all entrepreneurs are true prospects for copywriting services, you are sadly mistaken.

Go after them with all your might and persuasion...truly a fool's game. If you take this approach, I hope you have another source of income.

Smart marketing to get copywriting work is to target viable prospects. Read Slaunwhite's The Wealthy Freelancer.

I think copyassassin is suggesting that if you execute your pitch well to an entrepreneur there is a sure chance HE/SHE will buy the value of their services .
Whether or not they will go forward to PAY for their services is a different equation all together consisting of various variables like cashflow , time and priorities.

[ThomasOMalley]

Originally Posted by -seomaster-

I think copyassassin is suggesting that if you execute your pitch well to an entrepreneur there is a sure chance HE/SHE will buy the value of their services .
Whether or not they will go forward to PAY for their services is a different equation all together consisting of various variables like cashflow , time and priorities.

You are only correct if this an entrepreneur who is a targeted prospect.

If you are talking about every entrepreneur and follow this approach, you will need a second job too and a counsellor to deal with all your rejections...LOLOL.

Why you and others think every entrepreneur is a valid prospect is beyond me. But such is life.

[Mark Pescetti]

I only read a little of what people said in response to your posting...

...but my take is that copywriting IS rocket science.

Here's what I mean:

In order to sell something, you have to connect with the emotions your prospects are feeling and articulate the circumstances that trigger them.

Most people are NOT good enough writers to accomplish this task.

More than that...

It takes a rather large dose of emotional awareness to see beyond the obvious.

Most people only observe the apparent.

Therefore...

They only write about what they see and perceive.

But in order to generate massive sales, streaming in passively for years to come, you've got to HIT the deeper emotional nuances that got people into a place of needing or benefiting from your solution in the first place.

Personally...

To accomplish that task...

I spend more time understanding psychology, human nature, brain science, spirituality archetypes and mindset-attuning more than marketing and copywriting.

No...

I'm far from the best writer in the world (although I'm pretty sure I got the title in my own little town.)

But I have the kind of x-ray vision that gets me deep inside people's head - so I can acknowledge their challenges, help them connect with the benefits I'm selling...

...and lead them to the promise-land.

And that IS a science...

Besides...

Having worked with some awfully rich people, they'll be the first to tell you that if you want to make some REAL money, you have to know when to do something yourself...

...or hire the right authority to do it for you!

My take....

Mark Pescetti

P.S. I too made over 6 figures BEFORE I ever even heard about copywriting. I intuitively knew how to accomplish a great deal of what I've read about over the last couple of years. I continue to follow and trust my intuition, because I've made more money, in my integrity, for myself and others, by following my intuition than anything I've read in books or on this forum.

That being said...

I value the information I receive, no matter where I obtain it.

I just don't bank my life on it or take anything that anyone says too seriously.

If it resonates, I use it.

If it doesn't, I move on.

[Dan Curtis]

Originally Posted by copyassassin

... copy that beats your control so you get a "X" percentage increase in profit with ROI of fees within Y timeframe given Z amount of traffic...

This fragment of a single line is the essence of the value of a copywriter.

All the talk about A list and B list copywriters should go in the same ashcan with the talk about how much money someone else made or who is the most notable "guru." It's all mind-numbing nonsense.

The reputation of a copywriter, his "skills", what they studied, what they believed, how long they work on a project is all moot.

The only thing that matters is the conversion rate as compared to the control copy. That is what you take to the bank.

And the reason that copywriters cannot sell more of their services is not because the entrpreneur is ill-informed or poor. It is because copywriting services do not come with any guarantee. And the entrepreneur, knowing this, and being in the businesss of judging risk, decides the risk is too high.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by Dan Curtis

This fragment of a single line is the essence of the value of a copywriter.

All the talk about A list and B list copywriters should go in the same ashcan with the talk about how much money someone else made or who is the most notable "guru." It's all mind-numbing nonsense.

The reputation of a copywriter, his "skills", what they studied, what they believed, how long they work on a project is all moot.

The only thing that matters is the conversion rate as compared to the control copy. That is what you take to the bank.

And the reason that copywriters cannot sell more of their services is not because the entrpreneur is ill-informed or poor. It is because copywriting services do not come with any guarantee. And the entrepreneur, knowing this, and being in the businesss of judging risk, decides the risk is too high.

yes , at the end of the day numbers matter . A-list copywriters have better conversion rates than others . Hence the distinction . It comes with experience and a lot of creativity on your part to become one . So I strongly oppose what you said . Numbers define your position as a copywriter and not the other way round .

Imagine a A-list copywriter charging you the same amount what the not-so-experienced B-list copywriter is charging for a copy ....who would you choose ?
Its a no-brainer right ? Its not nonsense . Its called credibility in your market .

Nonetheless i couldn't agree more with your last point .
Thanks Dan for your perspective .
Goodluck.

[videolover7]

Originally Posted by -seomaster-

Excuse me but since most of you are trained to respond to these hooks I had to use the fancy headline to grab your attention .....

Actually, we're trained to write hooks, not respond to them.

VL

[videolover7]

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

...but my take is that copywriting IS rocket science.

Here's what I mean:

In order to sell something, you have to connect with the emotions your prospects are feeling and articulate the circumstances that trigger them.

Most people are NOT good enough writers to accomplish this task.

Nah.

Most people aren't trained to dig out the emotions prospects are feeling, is all.

It's easy to do once you know how.

VL

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by videolover7

Nah.

Most people aren't trained to dig out the emotions prospects are feeling, is all.

It's easy to do once you know how.

VL

Well that's what I meant .If you know your market very well , it becomes easy to uncover emotional triggers and build a copy around it . BUT ....you need to practice and go through courses to do it effectively otherwise it might just backfire if you haven't recognized their true mind movers .....this is where seasoned copywriters come into the picture.

[Dan Curtis]

Originally Posted by -seomaster-

A-list copywriters have better conversion rates than others.

If this is true then they deserve the distinction "A-list."

But that is my concern. I am not so sure that all the copywriters that are considered A-list do have better conversion rates.

If you have some evidence that they do I would be interested.

The one thing they do have that others do not is an ability to create a perception of a celebrity status.

Whether or not their sales copy converts is another matter entirely.

[angiecolee]

If knowing the product inside and out is all you essentially need to sell, then these guys should make a killing:

Turbo Encabulator

[Mark Pescetti]

Originally Posted by -seomaster-

Well that's what I meant .If you know your market very well , it becomes easy to uncover emotional triggers and build a copy around it . BUT ....you need to practice and go through courses to do it effectively otherwise it might just backfire if you haven't recognized their true mind movers .....this is where seasoned copywriters come into the picture.

You'd be surprised by how many people know their market, but have zero ability to communicate their benefits in a compelling way.

It's not always easy to write for your own business, no matter how well you know it.

Tunnel vision.

Feeling blinkered.

Being too immersed in what you do to make it sound simple and easily connect with your audience.

Mark

[MIB Mastermind]

I would say my copy skills are about C level and for the market I'm in and the clients I serve this is more than enough to generate a great ROI.

My prospects have never likely seen A level copy and I've certainly never encountered any in my niche either. While I always look to improve my copy writing skills I just don't have the time and desire to get to that A level, I only wite copy for my company and for offline clients, where the marketing is pi$$ poor anyway.

If I can become a good B level writer I will be happy and I'm sure just about anyone can get to this level with some hard work.

[joe golfer]

The one thing I notice more than anything lately is how poorly most sales letters build desire. Bullets are drab, stale and boring. Yecch.

I see it a lot in pitches from speakers, seminars, publicity experts, webinars, product launches in "mainstream" markets, and more.

I'll bet you could bill yourself as "Mr. Bullet" and just offer to fix existing bullets. You'll have that Maybach in no time.

[Keywordy]

I agree that one can do fine with their copywriting. I think its really about knowing your audience in your targeted niche. If you can put yourself in that specific groups mindset when writing you can really get a great message across.

[-seomaster-]

Originally Posted by MIB Mastermind

I would say my copy skills are about C level and for the market I'm in and the clients I serve this is more than enough to generate a great ROI.

My prospects have never likely seen A level copy and I've certainly never encountered any in my niche either. While I always look to improve my copy writing skills I just don't have the time and desire to get to that A level, I only wite copy for my company and for offline clients, where the marketing is pi$$ poor anyway.

If I can become a good B level writer I will be happy and I'm sure just about anyone can get to this level with some hard work.

May I know which niche are we talking about here ?

[videolover7]

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

You'd be surprised by how many people know their market, but have zero ability to communicate their benefits in a compelling way.

Like many things, it's a skill that can be easily learned.

VL

[videolover7]

Originally Posted by Dan Curtis

If this is true then they deserve the distinction "A-list."

But that is my concern. I am not so sure that all the copywriters that are considered A-list do have better conversion rates.

If you have some evidence that they do I would be interested.

The one thing they do have that others do not is an ability to create a perception of a celebrity status.

Whether or not their sales copy converts is another matter entirely.

The big mailers hire A-list copywriters. Not because they've created a perception of celebrity status, but because they get results.

Once a control is established, other A-listers are brought in to try and beat the control.

It's a cut-throat "game" and results are what determine the winners and losers.

Nothing else.

VL