Michael Masterson AWAI

now, let me get this straight.... you don't know how to
write copy. You have some materials about how to do
it... and you are asking whether you should even bother
to read what you have?

Yeah I said I have the course and I also said I've read that others have claimed it's not worth reading at all.

I (think I) get your point, but I'm busy. There aren't enough hours in the day. If this isn't the book to read, I don't want to read it, hence my post. My question isn't fueled by laziness.

Also, I've been a programmer for 15 years and know that a bad book about programming can be worse than no book at all. I don't know if this holds true for copywriting but I've got enough to wrap my head around without adding trying to figure out on my own what's good info and what's not ya know?

Chris -
I think what Loren is pointing out is that you already HAVE some information on writing copy. Apparently, you haven't bothered to even crack the info you have.

I understand your point about being busy, but may I suggest that if you are too busy to work through the body of material necessary to become a really good copywriter, you might be better off outsourcing?

The fact is that, in the end, there are no shortcuts to learning effective copy. What works for one person may not work for another. And effective copywriting depends on much, much more than following some formula. Good copywriters understand sales, marketing, and the basic psychological principles of human behavior. You're not going to get all that from ANY one book or course, no matter how well written.

The AWAI course will only teach you one method of writing copy. It's geared towards long copy-style. There are other ways to write copy. There's a whole thread already in the WF devoted to books on marketing and copy. Do a search, and you will have a reading list to keep you busy for a year.

I checked your blog. You already have pretty decent writing skills. I'd suggest reading what you got, and seeing if it works for you. The AWAI course is not BS. It will give you the basic tools to write long copy, but not the skills to do so. You will only gain copywriting skills by actually doing.

AWAI gets (deservedly) bad press because the course is a basic primer that will not, on its own, catapult you into a 6-Figure writing career. That part is definitely BS.

Yes, read them already, they're not that long -- you could've been halfway through them in the time you've spent writing and reading in this thread.

IMHO they're not worth the high price they're charging for them, but there is good stuff in them, so if you've already got them, just look through them.

For an opinion from someone who took this course and later went on to 6 figure copywriting (in spite of the course), read my response in this thread... http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...waionline.html

Now remember... I paid for the course... took it... religiously did my assignments and even got excellent grades from AWAIs graders.

I don't care if you're looking to freelance... write for yourself... or get hired at an agency... the AWAI course is nothing more than a puffed up very basic introduction to copywriting. It's nothing more than that.

And I have no ax to grind with them... no bone to pick. I just like keeping things honest. Just calling a spade a spade.

Warriors,

Back when I was a copywriter full time, I got up to $10,000 a letter.

I've sold millions online.

The AWAI courses are the best info available on copywriting I've read. I'm absolutely shocked when people say the courses are basic. I think maybe you have to be at a
certain level of understanding about copy to see the sheer brilliance of what Michael
teaches.

I can quote the law of transubstantiation, the law of transparency, the 4 legged stool,
the 4 p's, the core complex, the big idea and the 6 leads pretty much from heart.

His ideas on when to use direct and indirect leads are cutting edge.

Now, I haven't seen Fortin's course nor Clayton's $7500 Masterpiece. I'm sure both are amazing.

But if your attitude is you don't want to waste time reading something written by the
best copywriters in the business, then really, you won't make it.

You not only need to read their works, you need to read about everything else on copy you
can get your hands on. That includes ALL the other resources mentioned in this thread.
That includes John Caples, Robert Collier, Vic Scwab (sp), Bob Serling's book, Paul Myer's book, John Carlton's works.

A lot of people love the way Carlton teaches copywriting. Oh, you also need to read ALL the old Gary Halbert letters online.

And work your tail end off to become a good or a great copywriter. In the end you become a great copywriter by writing, not by reading.

Copywriting is a very high level skill.

There is no one course you need to read imho. That goes for ALL of marketing.

By the way, the one comment I have on Dan's book is if you think it's a great book on copy, re-read it.

The book is a lead generator for his copywriting services. The purpose is NOT to teach you that much about copywriting. The purpose is to convince you of how much work it is.

There is ONE difference between man and apes.

Man has the ability to read.

Use it or lose it.

Best wishes,

Marlon Sanders

Ray,

The first thing I read on copywriting was AWAI. Their letter was the spark that interested me in the craft. I have a fondness for those halcyon days, and can thank that letter for everything that has happened for me since...

But my conscience won't allow me to give AWAI a pass just because they got me in the biz that ultimately got me here.

I contend the letter that sold me (and thousands of others) is more of a course on copywriting than their course is.

Vin,

My brother...how are you?

I hear really awesome thing about your copy through the grapevine. So props on your copywriting success. That isn't cheap flattery. It's very much the truth. I asked around about who was writing the letters for a lot of the launches and your name came up over and over.

It's always nice to meet brothers who are talented copywriters. A rare breed.

Vin, I don't know where you got the idea they don't teach bullet points. That's what the 4 U's ARE!

And your first 3-4 bullets in the letter should all be 5 star. Michael teaches this. If you didn't get that point, it's probably because you read the course when you were newer in the business and it all wasn't adding up yet. I have the Masters Course ($750) and videos from them. Don't know what they teach in the basic course.

To discount the quality of the insights? Well, I reckon we'd have a massive disagreement on this one. That's ok my brother. We ain't gotta agree on everything, you know? But when a company sells 200 million a year, employes the best copywriters in the world (over 100) and has companies in health, investments, travel, and everything else, I listen up when they talk about copy.

Their best copywriters ear 1 million a year in salary and bonuses. I don't think most copywriters in the investment arena would want to try to beat an Agora control. Not if it's from the Oxford Club/Mike Palmer side.

Their best controls mail millions and millions in the mail. Their International Living control by Bill Bonner hasn't been beat in 20 years. They'll pay a boatload to anyone who can beat it.

Michael feels 80% of the success is in the headline and the lead. His "Big Idea" concept and the concept of knowing when and where to use direct vs. indirect leads is something that no one else taught before him.

Not when you understand how Agora uses Big Ideas, and I've made quite a large study of it.

The 4 u's, the 4 p's, the 4 legged stool, big ideas, transparency, transsubstantiation, core complex, direct and indirect leads.

Those my friend are some pretty hefty contributions to the state of this craft.

Marlon
twitter.com/marlonsanders

Hey,

Since no one here has SEEN the Master's course NOR the seminar DVD's of the awaionline trainings, I suspect we are comparing apples to oranges.

Having said that....

1. I know all about Michael Masterson's background. I pulled the original news articles, etc. No surprises for me there. The business paid hefty fines. End of story.

2. Ellen Tribby heads up ETR...early to rise.

Who pray tell do you think had the EXCLUSIVE contract for Clayton's writing for 5 years?
She did when she headed up marketing for Weiss.

And yes, Gary B. is a drop dead writer. I don't think he writes in the financial arena. If you think Agora doesn't hire the best copywriters in the world, you haven't done your homework. Or ask Clayton about them since he publishes articles from their writers on his blog.

3. Agora DID go up against Clayton's controls. And you might should look at the list sizes for Agora vs. Weiss research in SRDS and see who has the best controls. And who has the longest running controls.

4. All the courses mentioned there are must buys. I don't argue that. Caples, Eugene, etc. Great courses that any serious copywriter should own. I own all of them and have read all of them multiple times. Robert Collier, Clyde Bedell, Vic S., Claude Hopkins, all the John Caples books, Gary Halbert newsletters and seminars, Reason Why Advertising....there's nothing old school I haven't read.

And I own most of the new school stuff including Dan Kennedy's courses, etc.

By the way, Schwartz spoke to Agora's team on copy and they have the recording.

5. For the gentleman who couldn't find a writer from Agora's students, try Francis Ardi in Austin. He's a very nice talent. Jim Morris I believe is his name has a very nice portfolio. He's on my Facebook. Can't remember his name.

I've seen resumes and samples from many of their students. They are across the board. But they do have some real finds and talent in there. I personally looked at hiring some of them. They have some polished writers. Mostly diamonds in the rough if you search for them.

Reading a few courses doesn't make you a master copywriter. But it shows you're serious enough to study your craft. That says quite a bit.

6. Big idea as Michael Masterson teaches it is NOT just a hook.

Alright. I'm done with this thread. I don't know about the basic course since I don't own it. But I DO own several of their seminar DVDs and the Master's course.

And yes Caples said that about headlines. But testing the headline and full lead is different from testing headlines only which is what Caples did.

In addition, with their peer review process and mini reviews, they have a very useful system for predicting the success of headlines and leads in a streamlined fashion.

Marlon