40 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
40 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

Where Egos Dare

by The Marketeer
27 replies
Copywriters sometimes get accused of having an ego problem. This might not always be said directly but it's a sentiment that seems to materialise in the public domain.

Do you agree with this label or do you think that the problem lies with those making the accusations?

Or is it just a communication problem, a possible mis-understanding on both sides?

This is a chance to have your say. Let's get it all out in the open.

Either way, it'll make a good "discussion" and may just help us gain a better understanding of this issue.
#\\egos #dare #egos
  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    There is nothing wrong in believing in your own abilities, whether you're a copywriter, a writer or anything else for that matter. Everyone has a certain level of ego which is healthy. It's only when it becomes over-inflated that it can cause friction.
    Signature

    Cheers, Laurence.
    Writer/Editor/Proofreader.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6225206].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steve The Copywriter
      Yes, lots of copywriters “seem” to or actually have massive egos.

      It's dangerous to "believe" in your "pumped up" publicity. Of course tell clients you are brilliant but make sure you're even better than you say you are.

      Now you are impressive.


      It’s a little weird because so many copywriters are determined in being “bad tempered,” “grumpy,” or "angry" etc.

      It’s all “marketing."

      Building up on Dan Kennedy’s idea that you should have a “personality.”

      One that resonates with your audience (just make sure it does).

      The view is – it’s better to have one than none at all (just pick the best one).


      Interestingly, many of the A - level writers are incredibly kind and wonderful people.

      They know they're the best. No "ego boosting" Their writing does all the talking. And they absolutely don't need be “stroppy guru's.”

      I was lucky to have a chat with Gary Bencivenga – who truly is one of the nicest, caring and most genuine people I’ve ever met.


      You can “develop” any personality or ego you want.

      But don’t forget…

      Your aim is always to produce the most best copy you possible can for your clients.

      It'll be much more beneficial to concentrate on the writing rather than blasting out an ego to anyone who’ll listen.


      And it would be suicide to jump on the never - ending bandwagon of “I’m another angry copywriter so there!”

      Continually saying to the people who pay you.

      “If you don’t like it, you just don’t get it, so F ___off!”

      Because they will.

      And who can blame them?


      Ego's can be very, very expensive.

      Don't waste all that money on the wrong one.


      Steve
      Signature
      http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...right-now.html
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6225531].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author textbroker
    I don't think it's fair to lump all copywriters together and say that copywriters have an ego problem. It's like The Verge saying that all Internet Marketers are scammers.

    I'd say that writers are passionate, and they're especially passionate about the work they do. When they put a lot of effort into their writing, they're personally stung by criticism. They've immersed themselves so deeply into the passion of what they're doing that they're surprised and shocked that others don't see it.

    Many writers step back from their work after finishing and can take constructive criticism, suggestions and requests for improvement easily. They understand that they're working together with you to create something awesome, and they will bust their humps to get you exactly what works. These writers are amazing. They usually manage their clients with such grace and professionalism that there's nothing to rant about, and they're usually so busy that even if a deal went south, they don't have the time to complain about it.

    On the flip side, there are authors who see themselves as artists, and anything that you don't like goes against their "art." I don't know how many times I've heard the line "I write in a stream-of-consciousness style, that's why I never use a period" or "To write like Yoda my personal style is. Argued with, style cannot be!" These aspiring novelists take up copywriting to pay the bills, but they don't quite understand that copywriting isn't fiction. They forget that the purpose behind this writing is to sell. They don't realize that even Stephen King and Stephanie Meyer had editors and proofreaders weigh in on their work, and edits are not personal attacks. Unfortunately, it seems these folks have a lot of time on their hands, and they love to write, so their frustration comes out in heated posts.

    I think the best way to avoid bruising egos, whether overinflated or not, is to be clear in what you need. Understand your own audience, know the type of message you want to communicate, and outline what you expect. Not only will this result in clearer copy but a better focus on your business in general. When you ask for changes, be professional. If you forgot to include something in the original order or conversation, apologize for forgetting it. I find that highlighting something you like helps sweeten changes you ask for.

    Are copywriters over-sensitive egomaniacs? Sometimes. Are folks who order copywriting rude Neanderthals who don't "get it"? Sometimes. But if we all respect each other and communicate our expectations clearly, there's no reason why we can't all just get along.
    Signature
    http://www.textbroker.com
    Custom Content Creation
    Starting at 1.2 cents per word
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6225961].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by textbroker View Post

      I don't think it's fair to lump all copywriters together and say that copywriters have an ego problem. It's like The Verge saying that all Internet Marketers are scammers.
      This. Blanket statements don't work for any group, period. Copywriters are people too. There are some good, there are some bad, and there are some ugly ones among the population. It's all about filtering out the writers you don't want to hear running their mouths and focusing on the kind that you can work with/handle.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6226110].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I admit, I have a problem.

    I have no internal filter *gasp*.

    When I'm full on into rant mode, I can get swept up by the passion. However, I like to think I'm human. I mean, I eat and poop and breathe just like everyone else. Plus, I'm a woman and don't like hurting feelings. I give opinions that are based on my own admittedly biased point of view. And that's probably where a lot of this ego discussion comes into play.

    There are a LOT of copywriters here. They have a LOT of experience. They have varied fields of expertise. They're at different stages in their careers. Personally I don't see anything wrong with a newbie offering another newbie advice - you don't have to have years of experience to be able to help someone strengthen their arguments or catch grammatical/typographical errors.

    I think the ego comes in exactly where it was mentioned in the comments - "don't like it? F$** off." While I personally don't care whether someone takes my advice or not, I really don't hold it against them. It's like doing research - you can't use everything you find, because not all of it's relevant.

    Just do what you can to help people, says I. Take everything else with a grain of salt.
    Signature

    Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6226663].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      I admit, I have a problem.

      I have no internal filter *gasp*.

      I admire your honesty. Thanks for your input.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6226706].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        It's actually not got a great deal to do with having a massive ego.

        Many of us don't have much ego wise, believe it or not.

        What we do have however is an absolutely extraordinary wealth of knowledge. I'm not talking about the newbies here who often think they know it all just by quoting a few sentences here and there. I'm talking real in depth marketing knowledge and business experience.

        A lot of the copywriters here, the pro's they've made in many instances millions of dollars for their clients over and over again.

        They work in the trenches, understand psychology very well and what makes people tick. And we love good banter. Ribbing each other at times, joking around, pulling each others legs from time to time afterall words are our business.

        On the WF homepage it's says this about copywriting...

        "This section is for the discussion of Copywriting - the most vital skill you can learn."

        And it does take learning. And a hell of a lot of action too. With an insatiable appetite for acquiring new knowledge. Information overload is a joke to us.

        With the hundreds if not thousands of books, eBooks you name it we've all had to read, we've all got specialized knowledge literally teeming away in our minds. More than most of you could even fathom - it's nothing to do with ego it's just a simple fact. The way it is.

        Nothing big headed about it. It's just what we do. It goes with the territory.

        We've all put in tens of thousands of hours into our businesses. We're at this non-stop, almost every waking hour. If not researching more - we're actually writing sales copy.

        When we're not writing sales copy, we're reading more information again. We demand and our clients expect the best from us. But this 'best' it can only come from within.

        You want to be a copywriter? Really?

        You better start getting passionate about the subject.

        So often newbies come in here, we've all seen dozens of them and each time they think to take us down a peg or two. To bring us down to their level. (Whilst earning 5 bob an hour flipping burgers or sweeping floors, yeah right). They don't understand these newbies the real value we bring to the table.

        They have to ridicule us because quite frankly that's the only thing they can do.

        Their direct experience in copywriting isn't even close to matching the knowledge we typically take in in just one day. Quite honestly a lot of them haven't got a clue. Not the faintest idea.

        They just think after twitching their thumbs on an Xbox all day - ooh look... easy target. I'm more than a match for this guy.

        Get real. Good grief.

        You're not going to be the first nor will you be the last who enjoys taking potshots at copywriters to undermine the real value we bring to the table, guys and ladies who do this full time for a living.


        Mark Andrews
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6226988].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
          Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post


          You're not going to be the first nor will you be the last who enjoys taking potshots at copywriters to undermine the real value we bring to the table, guys and ladies who do this full time for a living.


          Mark Andrews
          Thanks for your valuable comments. I think it might help newbies and anyone in general understand this from both points of view.

          For the record I started this thread from a neutral position. It was intended to let both copywriters and non copywriters have their say. I personally don't think all copywriters have egos.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6227270].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wytnyt
    To be honest, I was actually attracted to the ego wars when I first came to the warrior forum. I saw how some of the people harassed and flat-out destroyed the critique-asking posters, I felt compelled to stay.

    I was an admin on a forum a couple of years ago, and I had my fair share of trolls and rude members.

    But this place is different. The people aren't just trolling the newbies, but giving solid advice as well.

    Sometimes the comments get a little bit too harsh, but that's what it takes when you're dealing with businesses and money.

    There's no room for sweet-talking, unless of course it's drizzled with sarcasm.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6227294].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    I wouldn't call it an ego problem - I would call it an earned sense of superiority.

    As a copywriter you get a lot insights into human psychology. You also get to see through all the B.S. and social programming people so passionately defend.

    You know you have an edge over people when it comes to many aspects of life.

    Sometimes though it's just frustration - it's one thing to write "With Product X you don't need to exercise or go on a diet".

    And then you hear Aunt Sally's voice (muffled by a huge slice of pizza) - "I can eat whatever I want - Product X allows me to do that". And she is convinced it's OK to stuff herself.

    Now, I'm not saying we write about stuff we don't believe in - what I'm saying that in order to sell effectively we can't live and think like the rest of the world.
    Signature
    "Those who can - DO IT. Those who can't, say it's impossible."
    Jean Paul a.k.a AdwordsMogul
    PHPDevelopers.net - Top of the range PHP developers

    ⇉ Easy Link Saver - Are you tired of the pain of constantly searching for your affiliate links? ( Chrome extension - FREE )
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6227302].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
      Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

      I wouldn't call it an ego problem - I would call it an earned sense of superiority.

      As a copywriter you get a lot insights into human psychology. You also get to see through all the B.S. and social programming people so passionately defend.

      You know you have an edge over people when it comes to many aspects of life.

      Sometimes though it's just frustration - it's one thing to write "With Product X you don't need to exercise or go on a diet".

      And then you hear Aunt Sally's voice (muffled by a huge slice of pizza) - "I can eat whatever I want - Product X allows me to do that". And she is convinced it's OK to stuff herself.

      Now, I'm not saying we write about stuff we don't believe in - what I'm saying that in order to sell effectively we can't live and think like the rest of the world.
      There isn't anything noble about being superior to another person.
      True nobility is being superior to the person you once were.

      I know a lot of skilled, talented people, who have a lot more money than the next guy, a lot more skills, but are also rude, egocentric, and overall selfish people. You can not at any point in your life confuse success or wealth with being a worthy or good person imo (I am not addressing you I'm making a remark about life in general).

      I've met some homeless people who are extremely nice, down to earth people with huge hearts. Would take a bullet for you. But they don't make any money. So if I'm just kinda nice, but very & successful rich, do I deserve the right to feel superior to that person?

      -Red
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6228180].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
      Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

      I wouldn't call it an ego problem - I would call it an earned sense of superiority.

      As a copywriter you get a lot insights into human psychology. You also get to see through all the B.S. and social programming people so passionately defend.

      You know you have an edge over people when it comes to many aspects of life.

      Sometimes though it's just frustration - it's one thing to write "With Product X you don't need to exercise or go on a diet".

      And then you hear Aunt Sally's voice (muffled by a huge slice of pizza) - "I can eat whatever I want - Product X allows me to do that". And she is convinced it's OK to stuff herself.

      Now, I'm not saying we write about stuff we don't believe in - what I'm saying that in order to sell effectively we can't live and think like the rest of the world.
      Thanks for your thoughts on this. While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think it's healthy to view an ego as "an earned sense of superiority".

      I can understand the lack of tolerance that experienced copywriters might have for a newbie when they don't give them the respect they're due especially when they offer their advice for free.

      However even though I have my moments, I'll be the 1st to admit that knowledge and experience should "ideally" humble a person.

      And just for the record if i've ever come across as arrogant to anyone on this forum, then it was never my intention to do so and I apologise if I've offended anyone.

      Anyone who knows me knows that I'm the total opposite.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6232125].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post

    Copywriters sometimes get accused of having an ego problem. This might not always be said directly but it's a sentiment that seems to materialise in the public domain.

    Do you agree with this label or do you think that the problem lies with those making the accusations?
    IMO, Steve the Copywriter got it right, and it's not specific to copywriting. We can see the same thing in internet marketing, CEOs, actors, and just about any occupation where image and power come into play.

    Human nature and marketing being what they are, some people will be bombastic, and others will prefer to stay out of the limelight. For every loud, brash egotistical personality out there, there are probably 10 more of equal stature that we've seldom heard of, quietly working in the background.

    For example, as part of a recent project I was reviewing websites of the top copywriters of today. Not surprisingly, many of them don't have - or appear to want - public exposure. Others (usually those into marketing via seminars, tapes, courses, books, etc.) can't get enough exposure, and many have developed a strong unique marketing personality, as Steve refers to. Is the personality real or just for marketing? No telling, unless you know the person personally. Howard Stern is reportedly a very nice guy offstage, for example, but his onstage personality is a bit stronger.

    Broadly speaking, perceived ego problems seem common in public occupations, but they seem to be cross-spectrum and not specific to copywriters.
    Signature
    Learn more - earn more: Books for Copywriters
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6227763].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author CharismaticMannequin
    Quite an interesting discussion. Two words:

    Rick Duris.


    I've never seen that guy show off about how damn good he is, how he's worked with this person, that person, how he's made X amount of money. Hell, I checked his sales letter for his copy, and he doesn't mention anywhere his previous clients or samples.

    Why? 'Cos that guy doesn't NEED to boast. He just contributes - those of you who've seen his posts can agree that all he does it put in value - very little ego there at all.

    Truth be told, that's what I want to emulate - I know many of you get off on having a personality, and I'm not going to be one to judge - I have no right to say what's 'right' or 'wrong', or whatever. Mal the Copy Nazi, Mark, and a few others, all have very extravagant personalities.

    And that's fine! Seriously, if that's how they want to market and portray themselves, then good for them - it's just not me.

    My intention is to just give value, help people (even if they ARE those annoying guys who run in shouting "Help ME! Help ME! But I'm not giving you anything for it!") 'cos that's the kind of person I want to become.

    One rule I've always lived by: "“When you give yourself, you receive more than you give."

    Basically, give and ye shall receive it two-fold. If everyone quit focusing on themselves and their personal gain, and focused on helping those around them, the world would be a crazy-happy place.

    Still, that's just my view. I've seen it happen - you give to people, and those true people of value appreciate it more than you could ever know, and they give back. It's true.


    But whatever, these are just my thoughts - thought I'd put that in for thought. Yeah, that's a lot of thought!


    Regards,


    Ben.
    Signature
    50% converting squeeze pages, 12% converting WSO's, and more...
    BenPalmerWilson Copywriting
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6234159].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by CharismaticMannequin View Post

      Quite an interesting discussion. Two words:

      Rick Duris.


      I've never seen that guy show off about how damn good he is, how he's worked with this person, that person, how he's made X amount of money. Hell, I checked his sales letter for his copy, and he doesn't mention anywhere his previous clients or samples.

      Why? 'Cos that guy doesn't NEED to boast. He just contributes - those of you who've seen his posts can agree that all he does it put in value - very little ego there at all.

      Truth be told, that's what I want to emulate - I know many of you get off on having a personality, and I'm not going to be one to judge - I have no right to say what's 'right' or 'wrong', or whatever. Mal the Copy Nazi, Mark, and a few others, all have very extravagant personalities.

      And that's fine! Seriously, if that's how they want to market and portray themselves, then good for them - it's just not me.

      My intention is to just give value, help people (even if they ARE those annoying guys who run in shouting "Help ME! Help ME! But I'm not giving you anything for it!") 'cos that's the kind of person I want to become.

      One rule I've always lived by: "“When you give yourself, you receive more than you give."

      Basically, give and ye shall receive it two-fold. If everyone quit focusing on themselves and their personal gain, and focused on helping those around them, the world would be a crazy-happy place.

      Still, that's just my view. I've seen it happen - you give to people, and those true people of value appreciate it more than you could ever know, and they give back. It's true.


      But whatever, these are just my thoughts - thought I'd put that in for thought. Yeah, that's a lot of thought!


      Regards,


      Ben.
      What? Aren't you the guy that I was "helping" for awhile - until you drove me nuts with your demands? Aren't you the guy that I bought a book on Amazon for...and sent it to you? And the guy I sent a whole lot of other resources?

      You've been in this game five minutes...and yet there you are handing out advice left, right and center. Like you know what you're talking about. You don't.

      You're a beginner...a newbie...a tyro...with a lot to learn.

      You single out Rick as some kind of copywriting God - and yet there are dozens of guys and gals here who contribute valuable stuff on a regular basis. You do them a disservice.

      And you're not doing Rick any favors either. From his site -
      A while ago, I got myself in major hot water on Warrior Forum. When I would do a project, or do a copy critique or a consult, or help out a fellow marketer in need, I would ask the person to 'say something nice 'bout me' on the forum. As a favor not only to me, but to others who needed help as well. So people could see what I do and what kind of person I am. Folks want to know. Wouldn't you? But a forum moderator took exception and said my friends' comments were considered advertising and put the cabash on it.
      BTW if you seriously think "A copywriter's first qualifications are imagination and enthusiasm" you're in the wrong racket.

      "Develop your eccentricities while you're young. That way, when you get old, people won't think you're going gaga" - David Ogilvy
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6234260].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author CharismaticMannequin
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

        What? Aren't you the guy that I was "helping" for awhile - until you drove me nuts with your demands? Aren't you the guy that I bought a book on Amazon for...and sent it to you? And the guy I sent a whole lot of other resources?

        You've been in this game five minutes...and yet there you are handing out advice left, right and center. Like you know what you're talking about. You don't.

        You're a beginner...a newbie...a tyro...with a lot to learn.

        You single out Rick as some kind of copywriting God - and yet there are dozens of guys and gals here who contribute valuable stuff on a regular basis. You do them a disservice.

        And you're not doing Rick any favors either. From his site -BTW if you seriously think "A copywriter's first qualifications are imagination and enthusiasm" you're in the wrong racket.

        "Develop your eccentricities while you're young. That way, when you get old, people won't think you're going gaga" - David Ogilvy

        Mal,

        yeah I was. I was an eager guy, ready to learn from one of the copywriters I knew to take their jobs seriously and not mess around. I apologised for my over-excitedness, but whatever.

        I'm not upset about it. I appreciated everything you helped me with - I took it on the chin (Yeah, I did annoy you, and that's fair enough).

        Anyway man, I'm not gonna jump into an argument over nothing - I came here to contribute my opinion. If you like it, fair enough - if not, that's not my problem. I do wonder though - when's the milestone when you can be considered a 'pro'? I DO know what I'm talking about - I don't have as much experience as you, sure.

        But I'm not illiterate - I CAN read.


        As for your other point, I'm not advertising for Rick. I don't even care if it comes across that way - It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I've spoken to several copywriters on this forum, including yourself. Arfa, Mark, Rick, etc.

        All contributive copywriters indeed - Arfa's personally helped me a lot in the past several months. My apologies that I didn't mention them.

        Is it offensive to copywriter's egos if I single one out as great? Feeling sad that they're left out? Not my problem. The people who've helped me and contributed to this forum (not just my personal advancement) KNOW who they are - they're not children. They don't need praise for every little contribution they make.

        This isn't school anymore. Again Mal, I'm sorry I got on your nerves, and I realise I did. I was over-eager to learn a lot from someone who does the job I'm currently working at.

        I've toned it down, and I'm working diligently. But whatever, I didn't come on here to attack anyone, bring anyone down, or whatever the hell trolls do these days.

        I won't be replying again, as it'll deviate the course and purpose of this thread. I'm here to contribute what I know and my personal experiences - if you can't handle that, ignore my posts - no skin off my back either way.


        Best of luck Mal,


        Ben.
        Signature
        50% converting squeeze pages, 12% converting WSO's, and more...
        BenPalmerWilson Copywriting
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6234728].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      [DELETED]
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6236442].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Reading a bunch of books on brain surgery does not a brain surgeon make.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6234783].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post

    Do you agree with this label or do you think that the problem lies with those making the accusations?

    Or is it just a communication problem, a possible mis-understanding on both sides?
    Let's face it... It's hard to be humble when you're a copywriter

    Seriously, I can only speak for myself. This copywriting forum offers a constant source of irritation to "real" copywriters. We're inundated with requests to perform services we charge for, for free.

    These requests come from clueless noobs posting up garbage they wrote because they were too cheap to pay for a pro. The garbage won't even compel their own mother to buy and they want it fixed.

    Frankly, it's insulting that some lamer who's only written papers for his high school English class thinks he can crank out a persuasive sales letter on his first try. There are no shortcuts.

    I'm fed up with that part of it and consequently, seldom participate in those threads unless I'm really bored and feel like punching somebody. I did that a few days ago, gave what I consider a harsh but true opinion, and the post was deleted. So now I'll confine my participation to the threads that I feel I will get or am able to give value to.

    That aside, the conclusion you're drawing, is based on participation in this forum and nothing else, I imagine.

    It's a mistake to judge a person by their behavior in a forum. You just don't have enough information; no body language, no tone, no sly smile after a smartass remark. I've shocked many people when we meet in person, and get along fabulously with them.

    Does a copywriter have an ego problem? Honestly, if we're all to drop our pants, I'd say we have the opposite. The truth is, we're holding our breath when we put out a piece of copy. We're scared to the core. We question ourselves. We reread our copy and ask ourselves, "why the hell did you say that?"

    You want to hear an ass suck wind? Drop a 10,000 piece mailing which you've paid for out of your own pocket, then see if you breathe for the next few days. That's the real world.

    Think I'm lying? Carline Anglade Cole wrote about her fear more than once, even asking herself, "Am I a fraud?"

    Last comment...

    These "big shot" copywriters bragging about double digit response rates (not comprehending the difference between a warm list and the real world), thinking they're all that and a bag of chips... LOL!

    Gary Halbert has a well written letter on how to determine if you're really a copywriter. I'm too lazy to find it now but it involves sending a DM piece to a list of golfers and seeing if you can make it pay. 90% of these Internet superstars would lose their ass playing that game.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6237562].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      Let's face it... It's hard to be humble when you're a copywriter

      That aside, the conclusion you're drawing, is based on participation in this forum and nothing else, I imagine.

      It's a mistake to judge a person by their behavior in a forum. You just don't have enough information; no body language, no tone, no sly smile after a smartass remark. I've shocked many people when we meet in person, and get along fabulously with them.

      You want to hear an ass suck wind? Drop a 10,000 piece mailing which you've paid for out of your own pocket, then see if you breathe for the next few days. That's the real world.

      Think I'm lying? Carline Anglade Cole wrote about her fear more than once, even asking herself, "Am I a fraud?"

      Last comment...

      These "big shot" copywriters bragging about double digit response rates (not comprehending the difference between a warm list and the real world), thinking they're all that and a bag of chips... LOL!

      Gary Halbert has a well written letter on how to determine if you're really a copywriter. I'm too lazy to find it now but it involves sending a DM piece to a list of golfers and seeing if you can make it pay. 90% of these Internet superstars would lose their ass playing that game.
      Thanks for your view on this.

      The "hypothesis" rather than the conclusion I drew was based on some comments I read of some product creators posted on other sites and also on what some of the newbies here have expressed.

      As I said earlier, I started this thread from a neutral position.

      I just wanted to see what both copywriters and clients/product creators have to say about this.

      In giving each party an opportunity to have their say I was hoping it would help each party understand each other better.

      I don't personally feel that copywriters have an ego problem.

      I can even understand why they sometimes respond in a way that might give the impression that they have an ego problem.

      And re: the acid test you mentioned. I think that's a true test to determine the strength of one's ability.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6240889].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KingOfContentMarketing
    2nd Gary Halbert Call Part 1 of 4 | Michel Fortin on Copywriting, Marketing, Business, and Life


    Gary: Now, and I mean that sincerely. I, you must know I don’t pay compliments easily.
    Now, I’m gonna clean up another thing that a question that was asked and I rambled on and I’m gonna try and stay focused. I’ll lose it about 20 minutes from now I want you all to know that. The drugs will start kicking in, you know, and then but uh, but I said how do you tell if you’re a real copywriter worthy of the name and I’m gonna tell you exactly how.
    You have to get the SRDS book. I think everybody here — the SRDS mailing list book. I think everybody on the call knows what that is. That tells you about the mailing lists and you have to go through and pick the market you’re going to work yourself. You pick it. Then you order 5,000 names from a list broker. Okay, now let’s suppose that you have picked golf.


    2nd Gary Halbert Call Part 2 of 4 | Michel Fortin on Copywriting, Marketing, Business, and Life


    Gary: Then you go out to a library or a bookstore and get ten books on golf and outline a product based on the ideas you got from those books. I remember one book I really liked had a simple title said, “The Secrets of Perfect Putting”, but anyway you outline your book then you write a direct mail letter as though your product actually existed.
    Then you mail 1000 letters out of that, you have to rent 5,000, but I often rent 5,000 and test only 1,000, and if you get enough money back that the arithmetic says that you have made a profit doing this and you did it with your own money then you are entitled to call yourself a copywriter.

    If you cannot do that you are defrauding people when you hold out your shingle as a copywriter who knows what he is doing and can work for other people. It is because; just think about this, everything was under your control.
    From the selection of the list, to the creation of the product, to the sales letter, to price, everything, and if you can not do it when everything is under your control how are you going to do it when a client dictates to you what you have to say? So that is the real acid test of whether you are a copywriter or not.
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6237683].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    It looks like Joe hit the mark, but this classic Halbert posting is pretty close too:

    http://www.thegaryhalbertletter.com/..._shirtless.htm

    (You will need to remove the letter r from the link above in shirtless, as the profanity checker doesn't like it otherwise.)

    As an aside to Mark and Bruce (and probably others) - I know the newbies can drive everyone batty. However, you can be certain there are some people that do appreciate all they learn here, and won't ask for a fix or critique of some drivel without having done some serious homework first. Some do know the value of what they receive, but unfortunately, not everyone does.
    Signature
    Learn more - earn more: Books for Copywriters
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6237737].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Wytnyt
    Keep doing what you're doing guys. I appreciate everything I learn every day in this forum.

    And I'm pretty sure there are lots of other people who are equally as grateful for all the stuff they've learned here.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6238329].message }}

Trending Topics