Serial Refunders - Database?

I'm currently collecting a list of serial refunders and they will be banned from my system for life. Boo hoo for them. Karma pays you back!

Hey Chris,

Do you have a link for that? I called the information Comissoners office two months ago about this and they seemed to think that if the data stored is just an abstract hash, you are not storing personal data and therefore this cannot be illegal.

If you are referring to the database of black balled construction people, then it doesn't really fit here as that was to do with employment equality. Having said that, they really should have paid the £30 or whatever it is to be registered with DPA.

I'm not a legal person here - but our sales pages our just an invitation to treat - either side can decline to continue the transaction - so there is no issue on the refusal front.

I just checked the site and they are all a marketing company themselves.
Not that this is a surprise but look at the information they ask of you just
to check if you are on the blacklist. I don't know how effective this
could be except they can filter buyers BEFORE they make the purchase.

-Ray Edwards

It's a great idea. I think, at least in the States that using this type of database would be perfectly legal. You aren't required to sell your product to anyone as long as you aren't discriminating based on race, religion etc.

The question is really how to integrate it given IM is such an individual business.

Collect your own list of serial refunders and as someone said above ban them for life. If someone happens to have a name similar to someone that is on the list compare not only their name but address and # to ensure you are not dealing with that person.

I would have thought it is perfectly fine to keep your own list of serial refunders and block their IP's, of course, if you wish to do this.

However to share their names/details onto a publicly available black list would not be ethically correct I feel, & in many countries I would expect it to be illegal.

Well, in the US, keeping a public "deadbeat list" DOES tread on murky waters. BESIDES, who is to say that the "merchant" is telling the truth at all? And Bad-customers advice about their #2 method of fighting a charge back is STUPID! For MOST internet purchases, it could end up hurting the seller a LOT!

DON'T even THINK of doing it unless the item is a valid physical purchase sent to the AVS verified address and card owner and/or someone signed for it. If you don't take the proper precautions, you could lose the case and be countersued for costs and/or harrassment. There are also laws for how collections are to be handled, and DEATHS are now attributed in the US to some of them BREAKING THE LAW, so the laws are more likely to be ENFORCED!

Can you IMAGINE some IDIOT saying that he would beat an OLD MAN(like 60+) up because he was a few months late on a mortgage due to the depression, etc... The guy suffers a heart attack and DIES and the IDIOT says he is just doing his job? He called TOO frequently, harassed, made threats, etc... ALL ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!

I am not a serial refunder(I use my cards about 7 times a day, and have done so for over 20 years, and I could easily count the chargebacks, or even almost ALL refunds(Chargebacks AND cases where the merchant repayed me willingly and directly) on my fingers! I EASILY charge more than most americans make. ), but I will say that NOBODY has EVER taken me to court for this, and the WORST thing was digital river had me on a PRIVATE ban list, because I disputed a charge because they wouldn't let me download the product I purchased. I EVEN gave them like a WEEK to respond! A number of their customers lost a lot of sales because of that garbage! HECK, most of the prior purchases, and the ones planned AFTER that were LARGER! IMAGINE if they made that public, and the airlines, hotels, restaraunts, etc... decided not to do business with me! The industries would lose HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars worth of business DIRECTLY, and perhaps MILLIONS INdirectly, and I would have to sue the pants off of them. BTW they have since taken me OFF their list.

I spend about $400+/week on a hotel, over $500/month on a car, over $100/week in restaurants, and that is just for STARTERS! ALL on credit cards. That might not SOUND like much, but JUST that is $32000/year. THAT is more than most americans make. Heck, I EVEN forgot the approx $400/month for air travel!

Anyway, I should say I am not a lawyer, but I HAVE had some experience, read some laws, and seen some cases covering stuff related to this.

Steve

Just looked over that site...it looks to me like grade A %100 bull... here's why:

You search to see if you're "on the list." If you are on the list (which could include anyone who has ever done a chargeback - which there is nothing wrong with if it is legitimate) then you get to pay them (the owners of the website) a hundred bucks to get taken off their list! If you get on the list repeatedly, then you pay more each time to get taken off...

Who the heck are they to be putting you on some bogus list saying you're a bad customer without knowing the details of any transactions / disputes?? Then they try to EXTORT money from you by warning that you could get banned from making all kinds of purchases if you don't give them money to be taken off the list?? Absolute garbage. (Hahaha, and for anyone wondering, no...I'm NOT on their list)

There is nothing wrong with creating your own, personal, private lists of serial refunders and banning their IPs from buying your product(s). You know who is a serial refunder and you know the circumstances of each transaction. It is actually a really good idea when dealing with digital products for obvious reasons. But the website referenced is pure hogwash, IMHO.

I have two questions about this:

1 - As far as the legality is considered how does this differ from the blacklist of e-mail address and domains that SPAM filters use to block spammers from sending you e-mail?

2 - How effective would this be anyway? I've had hundreds of e-mail addresses since I got my first one in 1989, and you can get a new GMail or Hotmail address in seconds. Even your primary PayPal e-mail address can be instantly changed. So wouldn't a blocked serial refunder just change addresses and continue refunding digital purchases?

Just curious, I certainly have no fondness for people like this.

Bill

According to Keith Wellman, my name is on that list-he claims he added it, after grudgingly giving me a refund I fought for about a year to get, for a continuity program he kept charging me for over a 7 month period-in spite of my repeated demands that he stop.

The refund came only after I posted the gory details of my rotten experience here-not through a chargeback. I don't care to pay the bad customer people money to find out if it's true. I've spend thousands on IM stuff, and rarely asked for a refund, so if you don't want to sell to me-it's your loss.

I'm sure there are a few serial refunders, but the great marketers don't waste time whining about them, they're too busy making money from the vast majority of honest customers. Jay Abraham-possibly the greatest marketer of our time, uses some of the most outrageously generous risk reversals anywhere, and says that it is one of his keys to writing offers that make millions for himself and his clients. I'm sure he has no time for blacklists.

I see people in here debating whether they should stop doing refunds on their (often questionable quality) WSOs that promise five figure months for almost no work, because of the big problem they have with "serial refunders". I have to ask myself-who would I rather model-the low level marketers that blame their refunds on dishonest customers, or the guy who makes millions per month, has thousands of raving fans, probably refunds more in a given year than most of us will make in a lifetime, and never complains about his customers. I choose the latter.

I worked in door to door sales selling gas and electricity, the industry standard of cancellations is 15%

Thought we already discussed this? It's illegal to share people's personal details like this unless you update your privacy policy.

..and if I thought somebody was going to be sharing my personal details after I *bought* their product - kept them in business - then I probably wouldn't by.

On the flip side, serial refunders are becoming a serious problem as more and more people become aware of their 'rights'.

Sad situation.

I use DLGuard to ban serial refunders. Works like a charm.

Ben?

You know what paragraphs are?

I think the refund we got is a great indicator for the perceived value of a product. If your product offer what it says in the sales letter you won't have much problem with refunds... maybe 3-7% for a great product. But in the other end if you have a product with no value with a hyped sales page don't be surprise to get more than 20% of refund.

If you don't want to issue refund... don't offer refund period.
"Oh! But I will scare away customer if I don't offer refund"
Then make sure you have a great product... not just a 15 page report written in 15 minutes.

And one other thing... About those "Mystery Wsos" (That's how I like to call them)
You know... 1000 words sales copy telling you all the benefits and how you will make $10,000 per month but never they will tell you what the product really is about...
Oh... Wait!
It's not
ppc
ppv
list building
bla bla bla

I don't want to know what your product is not.... I want to know what it is. Then I will decide if I want to buy or not. Simple uh?

I don't care really what your product is not about but if you don't tell me and I buy it anyways to discover that it's not what I was expecting to receive you can be sure I'll spark a refund right away!

I don't really believe in serial refunders, but I believe in unsatisfied customers who really need good guidance.

Anyways... just my 2 cents

It seems like these lists are not always in a purchasers best interest, Big M and Greg G have the right idea above.

The idea is great but it's hard to keep track. In order to regard one as a serial refunder, he/she needs to buy at least 2 or 3 different products and then asks for a refund, correct? If you have 1000s of customers, that's going to be tough, don't you think? Any idea?

But on the other hand, like Big Mike said, if the refund rate is less than 2-5%, who cares about those serial refunders? Instead of spending time on guarding from those freebies, just making more money might be a better solution..

I say, spend less time wasted on complaining about what is a NORMAL BUSINESS EVENT and more time making more money for your business.

This thread is old news guys, check the date of the OP.

It is CLEAR that they put you on the list if you are REPORTED as having done a CHARGEBACK! They consider a chargeback a fraud. So how do you REALLY get on the list?

1. There was a sale that was fraudulant!
2. There was a malicious entry made.
3. The PURCHASE was unauthorized!
4. A past problem wasn't resolved by the MERCHANT!
5. The customer had a need that wasn't filled properly, and used a chargeback.
6. Fraud from the customer.

And roughly in that order! Let's see, for MY chargebacks, they were 1,4,3, and 5! You can BET that that stupid site will increase #2! Greg guitar mentioned HE was subjected to #2!

Want DETAIL? Ok!

1. In one case, a stupid company signed me up for a club for disks the like of which I have NEVER ordered or bought, NOR would I. It took MONTHS, but they finally got the idea. Two other merchants charged me TWICE!

3. I had credit cards stolen, and the highly ethnic people went to stores and restaurants I never would have gone to. That ALSO was DISPUTED!

3 and 5? digitalriver actually blackballed me, WITHIN their enterprise, because symantec wouldn't send me what I ordered, and then refused to allow me to attempt it. digitalrivers actions cost their customers HUNDREDS of dollars, JUST FROM ME!

I have NEVER had a chargeback to get something for free! BTW if I ever get blacklisted by "badcustomer", ANY of you that use it will simply lose my business and that of most in similar circumstances. I WOULD appreciate that you tell me who created the record so I can perhaps sue for defamation of character, and fraud, though!

And YEAH, it's old. The last post I made was after hearing about some collection efforts, etc... Perhaps this is more distinct and on target.

Steve